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It's pretty obvious that daemons (and a few others) are beyond ridiculous with the number of Warp Charges they can get so I believe tournaments should agree to cap warp charges at 12 like in fantasy just for overall balance.

Try it out and see how you feel.

Never heard of a power dice cap in fantasy but then I don't get to play much fantasy anymore.

I'd put forward that unlike 6th we play with the 7th edition rules as they are for a while before starting the change it train.

no plain no and no some more just cos i choose to field a tzeentch army and you dont i shouldnt be penalised

and secondly to cast a lvl3 charge spell you gotta throw 9 dice at it to get it off so with a cap of 12 for example all i have left is 1 1charge spell

Yes, Beause too many people can toss dice at the other player during their psychic phase to turn off all their powers.

Don't like a hard cap. It just makes the rest of the army useless after 1 or 2 psykers cast their powers.

I found that most of my pskyers where useless if I wanted to cast more powers even w/o a cap. But I need them for the WC

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I found that most of my pskyers where useless if I wanted to cast more powers even w/o a cap. But I need them for the WC

There will always be that discrepency if you bring a psychic-lite army.

Like if you run Tau against orks. Since Tau will outshoot orks like 1000 to 1, why don't we cap the number of shots Tau can take to 20 per turn then?

wargamer1985 wrote:
no plain no and no some more just cos i choose to field a tzeentch army and you dont i shouldnt be penalised

and secondly to cast a lvl3 charge spell you gotta throw 9 dice at it to get it off so with a cap of 12 for example all i have left is 1 1charge spell

You can use 3 to have a chance. Nine just makes it statistically likely. There is no requirement to use 9 beyond mathhammer. The mechanic is broken and goes a step too far beyond what nids get.

My common Tzeentch list has:
Fateweaver, (who generates 8WC in 7e)
Three PML3 Tzeralds
Two PML3 Princes
Pink Horror unit

That's 24WC. More than lots of armies, waaay less than a Psyker-tailored list can bring.

In 6e, I could reliably get off 15 powers a turn.

In 7e....
If I want to cast Iron Arm, Endurance, Warp Speed, Life Leech, and Psychic Shriek, that's 10WC already (to make sure to pass). Now I have 2xPrescience, so that's another 8WC (to make sure to pass).
Now I have 6WC left for ALL my Flickering Fire and ALL of Fatey's shooting. Nowhere near enough. Previously, I could roll around 10D6 shots for Flickering Fire, from the whole army. Now? I'll be lucky to get off 4D6.

Tzeentch builds got a serious nerf with the new way of doing things.

A hard cap is just a really dumb idea.

The problem with a hard cap is that it nerfs more than you are aiming to fix. I'd rather see some restrictions on how many units you can summon.

Or just get rid of summoning completely instead of trying to find some perfect balance thst doesn't exist or harming other psychic powers as a side effect. There is no baby in this 7e bathwater, just a big stinking floating turd ready to throw away.

Im from the camp of 1 summon per turn. This way a wrap charge heavy army still gets to dominate the psychic phase and flickering fire armies can still fire their already unreliable guns. It is a simple and non invasive way to prevent demon factory while still letting psychic armies keep their flavor.

I am in the just wait and see camp.

The list has ZERO offensive ability out of the gate. If you are a fast army and go first you are going to tear it apart.

No caps, lets just give it a few months and see what happens.

Extremes are going to stand out for a bit. Give it time for people to adjust and settle before we put limits in place.

 warboss wrote:

wargamer1985 wrote:
no plain no and no some more just cos i choose to field a tzeentch army and you dont i shouldnt be penalised

and secondly to cast a lvl3 charge spell you gotta throw 9 dice at it to get it off so with a cap of 12 for example all i have left is 1 1charge spell

You can use 3 to have a chance. Nine just makes it statistically likely. There is no requirement to use 9 beyond mathhammer. The mechanic is broken and goes a step too far beyond what nids get.

To be fair, 'statistically likely' is what people are going for. Tossing three dice there is really just a hope and a prayer, it's not a tactic that's breaking the game. When you need to toss 9 dice at a WC3 power, even the shiniest Tzeentch lists can only do that three times a turn (at 2000 points in 1 BF FO anyway). After that the list has 7 dice left, which might get a fourth off, but maybe not. I might agree with you that raising 3 GDs of Tzeentch is pretty nasty, but that list will sacrifice a minimum of 285 pts to do so, which takes some of the sting out, plus the armies WC dice wouldn't actually increase. As people have mentioned, the Tzeentch list in question doesn't pack much of a punch outside the summoning either, since they can't lay pipe with shooting powers and also spam summon in the same turn. I'm sure there are more devious summoning strategies than the one I outlined, but they all have the same basic drawback relative to the use of shooting powers.

That''s not to say that 34 WC dice isn't potentially really sexy, because it is, but I'm not sure it's quite a nasty as people fear either, at least within the confines of a single FOC. When I see people splitting FOCs to get a second round of Heralds things start to get a little iffy for me, but that's a much easier fix than messing around with WC caps. I definitely want to get some sample size on the new rules before I'd endorse wholesale changes to the rules (and no, I don't own a single Tzeentch daemon).

What if a cap on the defensive turn? So only you only have a small chance to deny all you powers

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yes, Beause too many people can toss dice at the other player during their psychic phase to turn off all their powers.

Math doesn't support you though. WC 1 powers are easy to stop, the second you start needed 2 6s you're looking at poor odds to stop them. I have a farseer and a spirit seer and I couldn't shut down a 12 WC daemon army for gak.

Im finding low WC armies have to prioritize the most important powers to get off and they still struggle to do so, while WC spam armies dominate the phase with impunity. If warp charges don't get capped you'll see daemons everywhere and taking psykers becomes pointless in a competitive environment, much like the idea of inquisitors with servo skulls stopped white scar players from even attending with that army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:
Don't like a hard cap. It just makes the rest of the army useless after 1 or 2 psykers cast their powers.

The thing though is daemons make every other armies psykers useless. If you just have a ML 1 libby you might as well not bothering to cast against daemons.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
My common Tzeentch list has:
Fateweaver, (who generates 8WC in 7e)
Three PML3 Tzeralds
Two PML3 Princes
Pink Horror unit

That's 24WC. More than lots of armies, waaay less than a Psyker-tailored list can bring.

In 6e, I could reliably get off 15 powers a turn.

In 7e....
If I want to cast Iron Arm, Endurance, Warp Speed, Life Leech, and Psychic Shriek, that's 10WC already (to make sure to pass). Now I have 2xPrescience, so that's another 8WC (to make sure to pass).
Now I have 6WC left for ALL my Flickering Fire and ALL of Fatey's shooting. Nowhere near enough. Previously, I could roll around 10D6 shots for Flickering Fire, from the whole army. Now? I'll be lucky to get off 4D6.

Tzeentch builds got a serious nerf with the new way of doing things.

A hard cap is just a really dumb idea.

Tzeentch got a nerf? Read cursed earth and chaos focus.

Your army is an example of not abusing it to its full potential, if you went all daemonology you can get multiple cursed earths off and get tons of 2++ rerollables. You're playing on friendly mode, and in tournaments your army could easily dominate anyone in the psychic phase and get multiple units out every turn, on average you could summon 40 daemons a turn, or 30 and 3 cursed earths. a decent psyker army might shut 1 of those down.

 jy2 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I found that most of my pskyers where useless if I wanted to cast more powers even w/o a cap. But I need them for the WC

There will always be that discrepency if you bring a psychic-lite army.

Like if you run Tau against orks. Since Tau will outshoot orks like 1000 to 1, why don't we cap the number of shots Tau can take to 20 per turn then?

But tau aren't shooting to create 1000+ extra points in units for their army, now are they?

But I think your comment has showen what the crutch of the issue is. Capping the warp charge isn't getting to the root of the problem, the problem is the summoning powers becomeing so OP when you have that much dice to throw at them to make sure they get off.

People want to limit the warp charge points to nerf the deamon factory list, but that dose nerf other pychers.

Tournments need to ban the deamon summoning powers if they want to adress the power balence issues it creates with out crippleing other armies like Elric Greywolf's that is a deamon list that isn't actully trying to abuse it.

 Thud wrote:
The problem with a hard cap is that it nerfs more than you are aiming to fix. I'd rather see some restrictions on how many units you can summon.

It nails WC spam armies, not many others are hurt by it. My Eldar runs a farseer and a spiritseer, even with a 6 I hit 11 WC, not many armies will get beyond that without it getting silly. max 2 level 3s will get is 12.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I found that most of my pskyers where useless if I wanted to cast more powers even w/o a cap. But I need them for the WC

There will always be that discrepency if you bring a psychic-lite army.

Like if you run Tau against orks. Since Tau will outshoot orks like 1000 to 1, why don't we cap the number of shots Tau can take to 20 per turn then?

but tau don't generate free units with 2++ rerollables, and free bloodthirsters, Tau can be out shot.

So you are saying daemons who rely on psykers for like 80% of their shooting should for go their ability to shoot?

Most 6th e daemon lists produce 15-20 dice easy.6x 11+ horrors gives you 12. A hard cap is simply put a bad idea.

Breng77 wrote:
So you are saying daemons who rely on psykers for like 80% of their shooting should for go their ability to shoot?

Most 6th e daemon lists produce 15-20 dice easy.6x 11+ horrors gives you 12. A hard cap is simply put a bad idea.

Well take your pick, you either get spam 2++ rerollable spam hordes with 500+pts of free models or get daemons to ease up on their mediocre shooting. Plus the rulebook caps powers at once per unit. So they aren't even able to throw that much out anymore. 6 casts pf cursed earth makes its combat units strong enough.

Breng77 wrote:
So you are saying daemons who rely on psykers for like 80% of their shooting should for go their ability to shoot?

Most 6th e daemon lists produce 15-20 dice easy.6x 11+ horrors gives you 12. A hard cap is simply put a bad idea.

Ok, if you promise to use it on shooting

Ummm....you do know cursed earth doesn't stack correct? The brb says you can only be effected by the same blessing once. So there is no 2++ re-rollable horde, it is a bunch of 4++ models.

As to using it on shooting, some people will, the hard cap is simply put a bad fix that amounts to "you can only cast 3 or 4 powers per turn".

As for the rule book capping to powers once per unit, that is actually debatable. That rule is talking about psychic units, which earlier in the same chapter are stated to be equivalent to psykers, brotherhoods of psykers, and psychic pilots. So that line may very well mean that a psyker, unit with bop, or psychic pilot cannot cast the same power twice.

How long do you think Tzeentch armies summoning Daemons will last when you are contemplating throwing 9 dice a summon? They may not Peril on every double, but throwing that many dice, they're still likely to peril just about every turn.

The REAL problem is that Deny The Witch isn't balanced. At least in fantasy you more often than not have a similar amount of dice to your opponent.

Honestly if you in the opponents Psychic Phase got a number of warp charges equal to the total combined mastery levels of their psykers to Deny The Witch, and they got that +D6 to Manifest it would be very fair.

I disagree playes should be able to leverage psykers to an advantage, the problem is that it is too hard to deny. If instead deny was say roll more 4+ dice than your opponent! or cancel enough charges that they don't meet the minimum requirement it would be ok. I.e. For a 3 warp charge power if you roll three 4+, I only need to cancel.1 to shut the power down. If you roll 4 I need to cancel 2 etc.

Got two games in last eve with a balanced daemon list, 20wc, and the mechanic is sound...It is just that Daemons and Eldar are the psyker masters in 7e 40k...nothing more, nothing less...both games were even, winning one and getting aced by skyblight nids...I was missing powers and scoring perils all over the place...not to count getting denied several occasions...albeit my opponents were bankrolling dice to land on specific powers...summoning is also not broken...IMO the deep strike mechanic is what keeps it in check...many units will misshap if you are attempting to flood the field from your backfield and if you are using FMC's to cast the summoning spells to threaten your opponent, then it is not that hard for the enemy to just ace the FMC...anyways capping the WC, or limiting summoning is not an answer to something that is not a problem...before peeps get all excited they should play some games and get a feel for it...it was much easier to cast in 6thed. for sure...More of a concern really is being able to take as many FOC's as you desire...This will create problems in structured play...But again I am in the camp of let it play out, it really does excellent things for diversity and peeps being allowed to make some cool lists(and I realize some broken one's also)...

Denying powers is extremely difficult. Have seen people talking about how they can stop powers with their 20+ dice and just not getting whether they've done the actual math.

That said, the problems are a few powers. Capping the phase just throws the baby out with the bathwater. Still much TBD.

Why does Fateweaver give you 7 WC? Isn't he a ML4 psyker?

Breng77 wrote:
Ummm....you do know cursed earth doesn't stack correct? The brb says you can only be effected by the same blessing once. So there is no 2++ re-rollable horde, it is a bunch of 4++ models.

As to using it on shooting, some people will, the hard cap is simply put a bad fix that amounts to "you can only cast 3 or 4 powers per turn".

As for the rule book capping to powers once per unit, that is actually debatable. That rule is talking about psychic units, which earlier in the same chapter are stated to be equivalent to psykers, brotherhoods of psykers, and psychic pilots. So that line may very well mean that a psyker, unit with bop, or psychic pilot cannot cast the same power twice.

Stop talking common sense and using rules to prove a point man!
Haven't you heard yet? Daemons broke 7th edition last time, and they're automatically breaking it this time because it's 7th edition again! We don't need to ever play any games to see how things actually work, because it's 7th edition and Daemons broke it!!!1!!1!


Of course, it's rather funny to see an Eldar player cry foul about a re-rolled 2++ save, since they can pull the same stupid crap, but apparently it's only Daemons who ever deserve the epic shaft.
And apparently every single Daemon player is a donkey-cave WaaC'er who'll only ever run a Screamerstar + mass summoning BS, because well, there's no hate quite like Daemon-hate.

hmm... some thoughts of mine:

Limiting warp charges isnt good cause psychic heavy armies loose their flavour...
Banning daemonology seems to be the wrong way too, cause then you have to bann every other cheese too...

But what about the following nerf:

Summoned units need an Warp-Charge-upkeep. For example you have to get a specific number of successes equal to the summoning costs at the beginning of your psychic phase, otherwise they disappear. Doubles on an upkeep roll dont cause perils.