Okay the FAQ is out , speculation is over. Now let's really discuss the good the bad and the money you're going to have spend to play a Daemon Factory.

The Good :


The Bad:




Important things you should know about Conjuration:

Units arrive Via Deepstrike so it's important to probably initially either cast Cursed Earth or get some Icons to not scatter. FMCs arrive Swooping, this means unless Grounded (should have done your homework) your Bloodthirster will not charge the 2nd turn. They cannot cast conjuration spells. Other spells are fair game though. This will come in to play later.

Now here's the important thing to remember If a unit has the option to take a instrument, an icon, or a character it can

The Spells

Summoning
Warp 3 Range 12
The Primaris Power of Daemonlogy, This is the Swiss Army Knife of the army. What you summon and why you summon are incredibly important.
The list gets broken up thusly : Daemonettes, Horrors, PlagueBearers, Bloodletters
The 3 Winners here are Daemonettes (Fleet +3), Horrors (Warp Charge More Summoning), Plaguebearers (Great objective holders). Bloodletters are actually the most expensive point wise worth though.

As Stated Daemonettes are great because you can summon them then Run them. They can move, and be where they need to be pretty quickly. Rending is pretty good to, I think that's why i feel they edge out Bloodletters. Make sure to upgrade them.
Pink Horrors - Of course you want more Warp Charge, better for you to use Sacrifice, but getting 10 dudes that get a chance to try and get Possession and Summon More Daemons is pretty great. You should try and summon at least 1 unit a turn if you can.
PlagueBearers- I like these guys, Shrouded and being able to put them 12 inches away is pretty cool. Poison got kind of a nerf here.
Bloodletter - I think they are hot garbage.
Winners - Daemonettes , Pink Horrors
That's not all of your choices though you can also take Fleshhounds (5), Nurglings ( NO) , Flamers of Tzeentch (3) , Seekers of Slaanesh (5)

Clear winners , Seekers of Slaanesh, Fleshhounds, Flamers in no particular order. I like Seekers over Hounds because 6 + D6 and putting them 12 " away is some serious range on those guys. I like Flamers as a nice "Oh you have a horde? 3 Flamer Templates". Flesh Hounds are neat and have more wounds than the other calvary so are a great choice as well. I can not see any circumstance why you would take Nurglings, but whatever. I'm sure this is the lynchpin of some guys army and he'll show up with graphs on how it will not only win games but erase the memory of standing to close to a urinal in second grade and splashing piss all over the front of your pants so you just hid there til they dried.

Okay so that's summoning, what you summon and when is going to be up to you. You can't go wrong with summoning either Daemonettes or more Pink Horrors though. The other stuff is all situational to what is going on with your game. Did you miss the bus? Take some Calvary.

Okay a Note about Characters, Icons, and Instruments and why they are so damn important.


Sacrifice
Warp Charge 1

If Summoning is your Swiss Army Knife, this is your bread and butter of the army. Summon a Herald with 30 points of Options. You need this spell to get more Heralds, who in turn can either summon or cast more spells. It costs a wound, kill a Pink Horror. A note when summoned these aren't part of a unit so just you know this when your opponent goes okay I shoot that guy.

You get a choice of a Herald with 30 points of OPTIONS. The clear winner and what you should be going for is more Heralds of Tzeentch and take the option of Level 2 to get more Summons but don't over do it. You've already probably started the game with 30 to 40 Warp Charge points by the time you get off getting more Heralds / Portaglyphs / Greater Daemons/ etc.. you should at least be pushing upwards of 50. This is the clear choice to get starting on the first turn but subsequent turns consider going fishing. Don't forget they get 30 points of options. That's a Grimoire if you don't have one. We'll talk about spell selection later on with the psyker selection of Heralds Tzeentch but there is something you should know about this spell. You can cast non conjuration spells.

Spell Fishing


Spell Selection on Heralds of Tzeentch



Incursion
Warp Charge 3, Range: 12

The last Summon unit Spell, you get either 3 BloodCrushers , 3 Fiends of Slaanesh, or 3 Plague Drones of Nurgle, or 3 Screamers of Tzeentch

The clear winners here are Bloodcrushers, Plague Drones, Fiends of Slaanesh. Screamers are great and all and yeah they have their Passover attack like an actual pass over you attack not the murdering of young infants in Egypt if you were confused, and the bite, which now isn't really that great it's a single attack. They also have 6 wounds total. Find some other thing to deal with Vehicles. As has been pointed out with being able to boost they are an excellent instant grab objective unit. Just they can't hold it.

The 3 ones that win out though are Bloodcrushers, Plaguedrones, Fiends of Slaanesh. My choice Plague Drones, hard to argue with a JetPack Calvary that has T5, Shrouded, 4+ Poison Attacks, they don't get Rot and the other ability they can Purchase but that's still pretty good. Fiends win out on just having awesome abilities as well. They're just not as durable as Plague Drones, neither are Blood Crushers.

Okay so that brings us to the last Daemon Summoning Spell

Possession
3 Warp Charge Range 6

Pretty simple you become possessed by a Greater Daemon. It's a Greater Daemon they're all crazy good. It all depends really on what role you want to have. In fact I'd put 1 Daemon in last place and before you freak out it's not Slaanesh. For the simply reason a Bloodthirster, unless shot down cannot charge until the 3rd turn if you cast it on the 1st turn. He's kind of pointless to cast further than turn 2 or 3, being able to charge on turns 4 and 5 and doesn't have an affect really on the battle until he lands. Where as the Keeper of Secrets can charge Turn 2 if it wants and is a Psyker. So can a Great Unclean One, those are the only two that can get into combat on Turn 2. The Keeper more Reliably than the Great Unclean One.

So if you want to get into Combat turn 2 and start Wrecking shop, Keeper of Secrets. If you want a tarpit, Great Unclean One. If you want to fly around Summoning Daemons, Lord of Change ( who does not come with a staff btw). Want have a dude flying around the battlefield with his business in the wind Bloodthirster. Also a note to remember is that even if you perils and kill your Possessed guy the spell still goes off. So powering through this with 8 or more dice is fine. This isn't Magic the Gathering, it's been discussed in detail that this works. As killing the Psyker the summons isn't a requirement to casting the spell. Check out YMDC for more info if you question this but it works.

Cursed Earth
Warp Charge 1

This is the spell that you cast if you know whats good for you and you make everyone who can cast it cast it. Try to get two of them up if you can. It's a pretty much no brainer.

Aren't there other spells on the Malefic Chart?



A Boy and his Warp Charge

There comes a time in every mans life where his excesses outweigh his graces. There is a such thing as to much warp charge. If you are in turn just using warp charge to get more warp charge then your not really using the army correctly. It's a daemon summoning factory, not a warp charge producing factory.

Well what's a good upper limit? Honestly in the range of 35 to 45 is going to be end point. At that level your casting at minimum 6 to 10 Level 3 spells a turn. This is pretty much all you need. So don't obsess with just continually trying to build up more and more warp charge.


Building your Factory , Unit Choices for the Army
We'll start with HQ and then work our way down the list. A note about Combined Arms and Single FOCs. The FOC changed drastically. We'll go ahead and assume this from a Single FOC slot choice. Then later discuss what you can do with a Combined Arms multiple FOC.


Heralds of Tzeentch - The lynchpin of your army. These guys are what power the factory. At under a 100 for a Level 3 , they're the best choice. They're also one of your best choices for shooting ability and bring a good amount of firepower with Flickering Fire and access to Divination. A utility unit and a summoning unit. Fish for Misfortune or the 4+ Invulnerable if not take prescience then go back to Daemonology. Gives a incredible amount of utility and while already stated cannot be stated enough. A little bit more expensive is the option to take a Burning Chariot of Tzeentch which has some good rules, but over all it's biggest buff to the Herald is the ability to move, summon, move. It's a fast skimmer with a Invulnerable and a Jink save of 4+. That will come up later in Combos. Also point wise a Herald of Tzeentch level 2 is almost the same point value as a Herald of Slaanesh on a Chariot, it get's Jink but the Chariot of Slaanesh does do like 2D6 ST 4 Rending attacks. The other fast option is the Disc of Tzeentch, Faster than a Chariot, with a 24 inch turboboost cannot be laughed at at all, this puts them anywhere almost. Needs to be accompanyed though and shouldn't be out on his lonesome, you can put him with Screamers. Gets a jink save as well.

You want at least 4 Level 3s if you want to take maximum Warp Charge w/ a Lord of Change that's 15 Charge in the HQ alone, The option to take up to 4 Heralds per HQ slot once a detachment is amazing. It just get's better in a Combined Arms list.

Wargear
The One Piece of Wargear you should take is Portaglyph. Without a doubt one of the best Exalted choice for a Summoning army. 50% Chance each turn to gain more Warp Charge and spew out Pink Horrors who in turn can roll on the chart.
Grimoire - Also another great take. +2 is huge and stacks with Cursed Earth, if you don't get it off you don't lose anything with Cursed Earth up.
Chariot of Tzeentch - Great Choice. Mobile, 5+ Reroll 1s A little pricey but being able to move forward and summon Daemons is great ( Do not turn this into a rules debate. You can do it, they're not a passenger. Please take to YMDC this has been discussed ad nauseum). Being able to move, summon then move is awesome.
Disc of Tzeentch - Less expensive loses Hammer of Wrath, can be brought down by Mortars, Thunderfires, but can hide in a Screamer unit. Plus it's got a 24 inch turbo boost. Really great choice. I prefer chariots but they are both good viable options.

Blue Scribes -Yes, Blue Scribes. Cheaper than a Level 3 Herald, can roll randomly at the beginning and cast a spell from Malefic Automatically, including Possession. Downside, they can randomly roll a shooting attack and they don't get access to Summon, but still. Plus, with the FAQ they have cast it as if its a minimum number to suceed. Plus they can get warp charge back if your opponent casts spells. This is actually good if you face another Psyker army as it gives you a little bit of a advantage not much but helps.

Lord of Change - A very expensive model that can fly be Psychic Mastery Level 3 and have all the fixings. Flying into your opponents backfield and summon Daemons, but there's a cheaper solution. He also can get Possession which is actually good. If you are going the Daemon Prince , Flying Summoning Horde he's a great addition. It's just straight up a great choice. I think though you need to think hard on why you are taking him, if you want more Daemon Princes, sure? There's a better , cheaper choice though for those things he adds. Great selection for Possession though and probably next to Keeper of Secrets should be your choice. He can also be unkillable. If you take a base Lord of Change, cast possession Replace with a Lord of Change. Remember though he won't be charging so he's a flying around mobile summoning platform.

Keeper of Secrets Cheaper than a Lord of Change, good in Combat and being Psyker Mastery Level 3 gives him the same number of spells on the Malefic chart. Points wise, he's actually cheaper than a Lord of Change and with Warlord Traits, he can be pretty boss but he's not flying. Actually having him have access to Malefic is excellent but he also has the benefit of adding the huge Versatility of Telepathy to the army. Being able to Shroud your army or turn units invisible is amazing. Great Warlord, with the new charts and being able to reroll if your battle forged.

Great Unclean One A tough Summoner, has Access to Biomancy which now can make him a T10 model, throw in some Greater Rewards, etc.. he can be almost unkillable. Straight up. It's best to just summon him though unless you want a nigh invincible Warlord.

Daemon Princes Level 3 Psykers that can go into your Heavy Support Slot. If they're the foundation of a Flying Summoning Circus, take them. Two of them though is gonna run a huge point cost though. Expensive , durable. They're there to stay. Access to Biomancy and Telepathy make them a great utility unit as well.

Bloodthirsters Why would you take this?

The Unsung Heroes

Heralds of Slaanesh on a Seeker Chariot. A little bit more than a Level 3 Heralds w/ a Portaglyph but straight up one of the best choices you can take. Level 2 only but that doesn't matter. It's Summoning Range is what matters. It can take also take icons and can take a full upgraded chariot for a good bit more but then they have a crazy good special ability which makes them good at dealing some serious damage.

Why is it good? Well first off it's a summoner that can move , summon, move. The First movement at cruising can move up 12 , Summon out to 12 So that's a 24 inches that it can reach out and summon at. Then after it's summoned it can move again by going flat out in the shooting phase. That movement can be 6 + 6 + 3 because it's Fast. That's 27 inches of range this thing has. That's Crazy, you can move out from cover summon then move out of LOS. It's also even worse when you consider that it's a mobile Possession delivery vehicle and cheaper than other methods. Move 12, become Possessed , Run.

The move , summon , move get's even worse when you consider it can summon Daemonettes of Slaanesh, which can Run + 3 or it can summon Screamers of Tzeentch that can turbo boost or Plague Drones of Nurgle that can Jetpack move. This get's that daemon unit exactly where you need and then it can just get out of the way. You'll get more distance with a Herald of Tzeentch on a Disc plus a 4+, but he'll need to have some accompanying Screamers otherwise he's on his lonesome and can be picked off. Plus, access to Telepathy. Psychic Scream is really really good.

So very versatile.

Heralds of Nurgle on a Palaquin. ST5 T5, W4 and has shrouded plus is a Level 2. If you are constantly getting your Heralds killed because of the Barrage Fire, he's the way to go. Manticore still kills him outright but other than a Greater Daemon and a Daemon Prince (which he is just less expensive as). A great choice for a survivable Summoner.

Part 2, Army Building Continued, Psychic Phase, Movement and Shooting, Allies

Part 3, Allies and Allied Detachments

Part 4, Combos and Tactics

you called the primaris spell "sacrifice" when it is called "summoning"

assuming you plan to discuses sacrifice as well.

Building Your Army cont.

HQ


Kairos Fateweaver


Fresh Prince Belakor He's expensive, he gets everything from Telepathy, he's a beast in combat as well. Yeah, he's crazy good. He adds just a a massive amount of utility to the army if you put him in with a purpose. Otherwise he's a little meh. Expensive only 3 Warp Charge, but he's crazy good. I can't think of a Flying Summoning army that wouldn't take him. He's just that overpowered. He can't summon but who cares, not having random spells knowing what you can take now with Shrouded and how invisibility works now. He's great but think bout what your going to use him for cause he's a big investment and is a utility unit.

Okay so that's it for HQ, big winners here just my opinion and in no particular order. Heralds ot Tzeentch, Blue Scribes, Heralds of Slaanesh on Chariots, Lords of Change, Keeper of Secrets.

Choosing your Warlord

Troops

Pink Horrors

At first glance this is a easy pick, but it is more complicated than just "Take 20 man unit". First off, Heralds need to be protected so you generally want to have enough squads to place each Herald in. The next is you don't want to put Heralds with the same power that the Pink Horrors rolled because you can't cast two powers from the same squad. So what powers you roll and who you put where is important. This is also where your Heralds taking something other than Daemonlogy if they got a great roll comes into play. That way the Squad can cast Sacrifice, the Herald can cast a Divination, and Incursion etc..

A note regarding Squad Size of Pink Horrors and how many to take ( warning math): You should not repeat not take Pink Horrors in squad sizes of minimum amount required to get Warp Charge. You're going to lose Horrors, it is inevitable. You will either sacrifice them, lose them to shooting, or lose them to Perils Warp.

For Example: You have a 11 man squad of Heralds, you sacrifice one for a ML 2 Psyker. You've not gained 2 Warp Charge. You've lost one, gained two for a total one gain. You have a 16 man squad of Pink Heralds, you sacrifice 1, you lose 5 to Shooting in the next phase. You've gained 2 , Lost 2, no increase. Where it starts hurting is if that Pink Horror squad gets shot and you lose more. Each Psychic Phase you have to have a "Net Gain" otherwise your opponent through targeting can reduce your warp charge vastly which impacts your armies ability directly. We'll talk more about this later in the Psychic Phase portion of the game.

Try to make your squads be "buffered" in order to not suffer losing Warp Charge with Sacrifices or not gaining any. but don't rely on your Pink Horrors for all of your Warp Charge pool. This is why other psykers are so important they are point for point more efficient. 1 20 man squad w/ 3 warp charge is the same cost as 2 Heralds that provide 6 Warp Charge give or take 5 or so points.

This is an update but if you are taking greater than 60 to 80 or more Pink Horrors in the army you'll notice that you have very little functionality at the beginning of the game. I really recommend not doing this just to boost Warp Charge. A full 16 man squad is around 140, for an additional 70 or so points you can have a really decent Daemon Prince in the HQ slot. it's something that has come up lately in a a lot of games.

A Note Regarding Combined Arms

So what's a good number to take? Well if you want them to have 3 Warp Charge, try to go above the minimum by 2 to 3 is a good rule.

Now if you just have extra points buff the squad to 16 a minimum number but pay attention to who you are sacrificing etc.. it can leave you in a very unfavorable position if you have a run of bad luck.

Options
The two options you should consider is a Icon or a Instrument, prevents deep strike scatter and the instrument ca be used in a important tactic later on regarding facing off against Alpha strike. You don't need all of them to have it but should have some with them.

Shooting

Okay so that's pretty much Troops.. You'll notice this is Tzeentch themed and that makes sense but there are some things you should take if your taking another Psyker of another god to protect them but there are honestly better ways. Palaquin and a Chariot both protect Nurgle and Slaanesh respectively. As well as the fact that you can summon all the other units in this army with Pink Horrors.

Fast Attack

It's kind of insane but if you have a few points and don't know what to take, Chaos furies actually. They score now and are 6 points jump pack troops. Give them Mark of Slaanesh and have a unit that moves super fast across the board to grab a objective on turn one that's 45 points and most of the time people ignore them then forget that Slaanesh gives them Rending. Wyverns have Rear Armour 10. Its not like the best choice in the world but they did get a buff and the more you think about them the more your like , wait they're 8 points, with scoring now they are not as awful. People really do forget that they get rending and Vehicles get hit at WS1. Oh and their good cheap ablative units for accompanying Heralds that may have their business out in the wind. Screamers are the next choice on the list as they can accompany Heralds of Tzeentch on Discs and not be slowed down.

Elites
Same as the troops really. You'll be Summoning these. A good choice though that should be pointed out is Beasts of Nurgle are actually a really good choice. You can't summon them. So consider them. They have a great ability are hell to kill and cheap. They're also calvary which is great for grabbing objectives and staying on them. They also got a great counter charge special rule. A squad lurking in your backfield isn't a terrible choice.

Heavy Support

It's got two choices one of which is almost broke it's so damn good.

Daemon Princes If taking a Lord of Change, Keeper of Secrets , Great Unclean One they can become H. Support. It's worth the investment, as they can be absolute beasts in combat and summoning gods. Depends on the point values and what you are going for. Personally, with Telepathy having one of the most broken spells or Biomancy they make a great backfield protector can take one roll on Malefic to try and get a good roll with Incursion, Sacrifice , or Cursed Earth. Then go back to rolling on Telepathy to try and get Invisibility. (Seriously Invisibility is broken).

Soul Grndrs It was already a great vehicle, now it's even better if you can believe that. In fact these can be invincible almost literally. There's not much one can do against a AV13 3+ Invulnerable Reroll 1s need 6s to hit vehicle that shoots off a battle cannon and can charge you with 5 ST 10 attacks.

Cursed Earth gives them a +1 already to being a 4+, with Tzeentch letting them reroll ones. If they have Forewarning and are in a Cursed Earth bubble it's a 3+, if they get Grimoired and are in a bubble 2+. All rerollable due to Tzeentch. You just need the 3+ that's pretty much a guarentee right there to never dying.

They're also the only thing in the army other than Flyers swooping that has Anti-Air something that the army is sorely lacking. They have a gak ballistic but that doesn't matter because you have access to Prescience. Throw in a Group Shrouded or a Invisibility on them then charge 2 of these toward your opponent and watch him just throw up his hands and give up.

It's the most brokenly powerful thing in the codex right now. People complain about Deathstars, This is a Deathstar on it's own and it's 170 points. The best part is all that stuff you can do to them, is easy. You are a Psychic based army, that has access to Daemonology and Divination. It's not like you can't cast Prescience and then cast more summoning spells. Another case on why you want versatility in your spells not just taking Daemonology. This is why. This right here and you can take up to 3 of them more in a Combined Forces.


Fortifications

Bastions
Your Daemon factory needs some buildings, Heralds can hide in them, they block LOS, and going to ground doesn't affect Psychic Powers. A Bastion with some defense lines is a great choice. Also you can hide inside the building which helps since Heralds and such are independent characters and can well hide inside then leave it and start casting spells so it's useful. Just put them together in one squad, all the disembarking rules for vehicles pretty much roll over to buildings so it's a way to keep your Heralds safe on the first turn, so a IC could leave the building a go join a squad nearby (I think this is still the case please correct me, I recall ICs being able to leave a transport on their own) Also, you can actually shoot Witchfire attacks out of building afaik, but not summon or anything else.

It's really the only way you can keep away from Alpha Striking Drop Pod army or Wyverns and mass fire. It sucks but it's a neccessary evil and you're just gonna have to - a 100 or so points from your point value to buy some fortifications.

You can also again get Quad Guns which with a Herald, have a pretty good chance to hit fliers. It's without allying the 3rd option the army really has to realistically deal with fliers. Aegis Defense lines are great but they don't stop barrage for 25 points more you can hide inside a Bastion and for 100 points buy it a void shield if you are really paranoid. Also remember that Aegis doesn't protect against Wyvern and doesn't protect against Ignore cover but a Bastion does.Void Shield Networks. Not terrible but really its AV 12 and you can get some battlements but again it's AV12. They just shoot them down the blast you with indirect fire.

So yeah, this is one of the few ways you actually have to stop your Heralds from getting the crap blown out of them on the first turn by Wyverns Thunderfires and Alpha Strike etc. you can fit a max of 20 in the bastion, the rest will have to go behind the defensive lines. You are now playing Warhammer 40k Storm the Castle. You will lose some of your Pink Horrors that are left out there and that'll hurt you but each dead Herald is -3 Warp charge and - 3 Spells. Pink Horrors can go down to 2 guys still keep their spell and provide 1 Warp Charge. Plus you can summon more. We'll go in later on how the hell do I deal with Out of LOS Barrage Weapons under tactics.


The Psychic Phase

The secret of all victory lies in the organization of the non-obvious. - Some guy who died

We'll first deal with organizational skills and aids. There's a reason why the army takes forever but you can lessen this headache pretty easily with a few simple skills and a few simple accessories to your army.

Playing Cards
This is incredibly useful cheap, comes in packs of usually 52. Write Spells on them, multiples in fact, have playing cards that say " Sacrifice, Incursion" etc.. as well as your Divination and other spells. Lay them down next to the unit. Done. Nothing to keep track of. They can even be laid under a model with no effect to the game face up so you can immediately look and see. Have your army laid out before hand. Pick one model put those cards under it when you roll it so you know what units have what. This can be done during the game as well, when you summon a Herald with powers roll for them.

Cheap Plastic Beads for Counters or Fake "Gems"
Count out how many you need for starting off with warp charge, you can pick these up at any hobby center like Hobby Lobby. Pretty easy and way easier than sitting there doing math on a bunch of D6s.

Dice that have more that 6 sides
Specifically D20s, you probably have these at your house. Use them. Very easy for warp charge.

Quick Reference Guide for Spell costs or you know a deck of Psychic Cards
Games Workshop Literally makes these.

Poker Chips or some other noticable token
Place this next to a unit after it finishes casting what ever spells are available to it. Remove after the phase. You will thank me later, it's hard to keep track of.

Make a cheat sheet
I know it's like we're in school, but having a simple list on hand that you can easily look at and say okay I rolled a 1, 2 etc.. that is these spells. It stops you from having to pick up the book every single time you roll. Or reference your cards. Write down what spells you have access to immediately on a handy chart or piece of paper that you can glance at and know what spells you have access to instead of having to look at the table. If you can cast Sacrifice 3x write that down so you can just look down and see what you can cast.

I know this sounds a little weird, but it will make your life easier. I use playing cards, it was very easy even pushing 40 Warp Charge. This is going to save you a lot of headache and time , massive amounts of time.

Know which models you want for which armies, we'll be going over this later but it's important to not sit there and decide well what do I summon? What do I cast? When do I cast it? Know these before hand. Have a plan on how you are going to split your dice " Okay I'm dedicating 20 dice to summoning 15 to utility" etc..

Spell Order

Even though your opponent has less Warp charge than you doesn't mean that they cannot stop your spells. This is where spell order comes into play. Now there's some mixing around of what you want to do and what order in it but a good rule is to save some Level 3s at the beginning and some level 1s for the end of the phase. A important thing to remember is that you are going to have redundant spells.

Who cast's what and when?

This is the hardest part you want to eat through your opponents dispel dice so eventually he has no way to stop any of your spells. If a spell get's denied, don't immediately try and just recast it with another unit. If you have the dice move on to another spell that's just as useful. Then save that spell for later in the phase.

For Example : You have Possesion, Misfortune, 1 Incursion for a Herald, Flickering Fire and Sacrifice for a Horror squad. A great lay out because you don't have any duplicates, remember you can't cast duplicate spells from the same unit. You have 20 Warp Charge your opponent has 7. Set aside 5 dice for Possession, it's the spell you want to cast last set aside dice for Incursion 5. Now you have 10 dice.

You cast Sacrifice with 3 Dice and succeed your opponent uses 5 dice and denies, don't immediately cast your big spell. Cast Misfortune first, then cast Incursion, then cast Possession. Why? Because if he has 7 dice and used 5, he can't stop anymore of your spells. It's important to whiddle down that Denial Pool by giving him very hard choices. If you just cast summon summon summon, its just inefficient. Once he's out it's free reign specifically for Flickering Fire. He can't stop it and now he has a unit with Misfortune on it.

Now he may hold out, that's why you want to lead with a utility spell then a summoning. He holds out for the Summoning you still have a utility.

So what spells in what orders, a mix is the best way to go. Cast a Level 3 then cast a Level 1 or 2. It's really a tactical decision. Remember though once you pick a Psyker to cast Possession that's it for them. So Pink Horrors are a great way to start off as you only have 1 chance to cast. Mix it up though with having the 1s then the Level 3s cast.

Spell Priorities

Cursed Earth It's one of the most important spells. Make sure you power it through. +1 Invulnerable and No Scatter is huge. Your opponent will probably target this as it's a level 1. Don't feel bad if you dedicate 3 or more power to it. You need it, in multiples. If you have multiples. Cast it right off the bat. Why? He's going to go to stop it. Casting with 4 dice he's gonna have to dedicate some Denial Dice to it. A great way to start the phase and a great choice for your Pink Horrors to cast first. Save a duplicate for the end of phase though. This is also why it's important to have Icons. Because that's redundancy on the scatter. Don't just summon the same unit over and over again. It's pointless have a variety of units in order to deal with specific threats otherwise one tool your opponent has affects all of them. Its much easier to deal with 30 Daemonettes than it is to deal with 10 Daemonettes , 10 Plaguebearers, and 10 Pink horrors.


Sacrifice Another LeveL 1, and is really situational when cast as you have multiple options to choose from , it's going to be up to you. I'd cast later in the phase between spells. You absolutely need to cast this, but save it for later the reason being that by the time you get to it, your opponent won't have any Denial Dice. Try to remember that you may not want to cast this 8 times, if your just using this over and over to summon 1 unit you are doing it wrong. It's better to have a mix of Daemons that have different functions than one daemon unit over and over. You should minimally with Portaglyph, Summonining, and this be adding 3 to 5 more warp charge a turn. Remember it's okay to trade in 1 warp charge for two if that puts you ahead.

Utility Spells Spells like Invisibility, Misfortune, Forewarning, Prescience, all of these are utility spells. They're great in between spells

Incursion, Summoning Similar to Summoning. Try to cast after Cursed Earth

Possession It should be cast last on a Herald, or first off the bat with a Pink Horror squad. Cast it last on the Herald, burn through his spells he can cast first.

A Note Regarding changes to Beam spells The Tzeentch Psychic power that is ST4 + D6 AP 2 24" Beam has been buffed. Beams no longer reduce strength by one now, so it's worth considering if you are going against alot of Tank and or MEQ.

Flickering Fire and Witchfire Do not discount Flickering Fire it's the only "shooting " attack Pink Horrors get, and it's actually really really good. ST 5 AP4, is excellent with 2D6 on the minimum. 4 dice gives you 3d6 and a 50% chance to cast. It's excellent especially when you consider that you can cast Misfortune on a unit and blast them with two or 3 level 1 flickering fires. It's on of the few ways to strip vehicles through glances something the army has a terrible time with. Add in the a Icon that Adds +1 strength from the Heralds and it becomes ST6. That's just enough to glance AV14 and force Grounding checks on FMCs. People got agravated that it got "nerfed" but you probably with have the advantage on warp charge. Also, as many witchfires as you can fire can be fired off. That's a gunboat with Flickering Fire, Beam Powers, etc.. A Level 2 who is summoned via sacrificed can immediately fire off a witchfire. That's awesome. You can cast Sacrifice for Level 1, Fire Flickering Fire, then with the Summoned Herald Fire Flickering Fire again. That's a total needed of 3 Warp Charge to do that. Also remember you can always just fire Flickering Fire it's one Warp Charge and does 2d6 w/ a 50% chance to go off and no way to perils.

Okay that's the psychic phase, with access to Divination, Telepathy, Biomancy, Flickering Fire, Malefic, you have a huge toolbox. How you use it is your choice, but remember you can't just have a box of hammers and expect to build a good house. So diversity like life is a good thing. Don't feel bad selecting a spell from Divination then going into Malefic.

Generating Warp charge, you will realize that you are going to lose models, it is incredibly important to maintain above 30 Warp Charge during the game. Make summoning Warp charge a priority if you see your opponent is specifically targeting Warp Charge producing units.

Shooting and Movement

The most important thing to remember is that you can move, summon, then run back. This gives your spells more range. Remember to stack cursed earth and try to keep as many units as you can with in that bubble, which is why placing the Cursed earths in varying positions is important. If you know that Herald has Possession move him forward don't just stay in your backfield he can be possessed then that Greater Daemon can then move possibly. With movement you add another 6 to your spells ranges for summoning.

Going to Ground is your friend. It doesn't effect casting at all. When getting shot at and in cover take the cover save if its going to be better than your invulnerble. Also, a lot of your shooting is probably going to be in the psychic phase.

These are really the two most important thing to remember. As both these phases are very situational we'll discuss just those general tactics. The things to remember is that your Daemon Summoing has a range of 12 so with movement you have a 18 bubble to put those Daemons.

The other thing is that since most of your shooting is in the Psychic Phase, you'll need to just prioritize whether it's going to be better to start shooting or keep summoning threats. We'll discuss this more later on. The other thing to remember is RUN!!! Seriously don't forget to run your units. It may not see like much but remember again you can move summon move. You can actually move out from LOS then fire a Psychic attack then run back out of LOS. That's incredible.

We'll get more into target priority in tactics but a good rule is to keep CC units away from your summoners, they have no over watch.

Allies

Not only are Daemon summoners cheap but also a great addition to an army if you are going for Psychic dominance, the ability to get 4 Heralds for 1 HQ and 1 Pink Horror Squad for under 500 and add 13 to the psychic phase is crazy. So they make a great addition if that is what you are going for. It's also sometimes better to have a Daemon army where you may be in fact a "Daemon" army but are actually the ally detachment.

Now for taking allies yourself, you're Come the Apocalypse with pretty much everyone except Chaos Space Marines. Chaos Space Marines are an excellent ally choice Access to units that have the Daemon type, Ranged weapons in the shooting phase, a still great flyer and one of the best Summoners for Daemons in the game. I'm talking about two units specifically that are amazing as summoners one that's broken and it's because of one piece of wargear Spell Familiar.

Daemon Princes w/ Spell Familiars ( less spells but seriously uses less Power Dice, an can get crazy buffed)

Chaos Sorcerers w/ Spell Familiars

This allows you to re-roll failed Psychic Tests which allows you to have a better statistical odds of success with a lower warp charge expended. How does that work? Basically you have a 50% chance to roll successes on 4 dice with a requirement of two successes. If you fail though you get to re-roll. So your actual odds ( checking math, someone may want to correct Around 90%).

It get's better though one of the big disadvantages that others have when casting Psychic Powers is the rolling of Doubles. This can be negated by (insert piece of wargear from Crimson Slaughter who's name I forget) that is makes you a Daemon and now you gain the benefits of not having to worry about Doubles at all except for 6s. Throw in a Scroll of the Magus or a Mark of Tzeentch and be around a 3+ Invulnerable with Cursed Earth. You don't have to take any additional Wargear. Daemon gives you a invulnerable it's improved to 4+ with Mark of Tzeentch and a further +1 with Cursed Earth. Now , unfortunately that loses you a Summoning Spell or taking a Daemon Prince.

A Psyker that is umarked with Level 3, has the Crimson Slaughter Wargear that makes him a Daemon and a spell familiar is almost no more expensive than a Herald of Slaanesh on a chariot. He can also go all in and have 4 Spells from Malefic, if you want to spend some points put him on something mobile like a bike. He can come well under 200 points be able to reroll Psychic tests, use less warp charge, move 12 .

Here are the Daemon Units of Chaos Space Marines, these are all units that have the Daemon type and benefit from Cursed Earth.

Possessed
Warp Talons
Heldrake
Obliterators
ForgeFiend
Maulerfiend
Defilers
Mutilators

Out these units really there are two worth taking. A Heldrake and Obliterators. Sorry the rest are pretty much situational garbage dumps for points unless you are playing themed then go for it. Heldrakes benefit less than the Obliterators. Maulerfiend, Forgefiend, and Defilers all get completely outshone by Soul Grinders. Its why really it's better to ally the other way around with Daemons, build your Primary Chaos Space Marine, then ally in Daemons as your ally detachment.

That doesn't leave you with a lot of options, but Chaos do have Access to Chaos Cultists which are cheap and great for killing with Sacrifice and it's appropriate!! Obliterators can deepstrike near Cursed Earth and not scatter. Then immediately start getting their 4+ give them t5 with Nurgle and you have t5 4+.

Next up on the list would Imperial Guard, or the filthy Traitors. You have to deploy initially 12 inches away or stick all your Daemons in Reserve and Deepstrike then summon Daemons while your Battlecannons raw dog the enemy with out of LOS Wyvern Batteries and a Battletank Commander HQ w/ Two Leman Russes. Each FOC pretty much has something that you can take that will accent your army from Vendettas to Vendettas. It shores up a lot of shortcomings the Daemon Army has with a brutal shooting phase and anti AV14 weaponry. Cheap too. These guys are actually almost better if not better to take then Chaos Space Marines. You get Anti Tank and Reach out and Touch you weapons. 1200 Points of a Daemon Army will easily get you 30 Spell dice that leaves a huge chunk for your Guard detachment.

A Special Note Regarding Allies : You can now have as many FOCs as you want specifically Allied Detachments. We're going to assume you are taking one FOC. It gets a little bit more ridiculous the more you pull in from Allies, but there's nothing that says you can't have a Super Summoner from Crimson Slaughter and 10 Cultists and a Leman Russ Battle Tank Squadron along with your Daemon summoning. It's just not very nice and most people will probably agree to the one ally FOC and so will probably tournaments, but you can totally fething do it.


Space Marines again Come the Apocalypse. Not very fluffy but thems the rules. They've got some pretty great units in each slot that makes up for the loss in shooting the army has. I'm not a in depth Space Marine player so I wouldn't know where to start on that one. They have things that fire bullets and gak. Probably similar to Imperial Guard.

The last army and the one that is probably the most broken. Is Eldar, but really for the army to get the full effect of going against everything you should only summon Slaanesh daemons. Better if they are your primary and not your allied detachment. Lost some due to not being able to Warlock up and get a big squad casting spells over and over due to the unit spell limitation. They do have something that makes them great at summoning Daemons, Ghost Helm ( pretty much you ignore perils). Add in a small contingent of Daemons to boost warp charge and Deepstrike ( Make sure it's Heralds of Slaanesh on Chariots even if they are level 2) and a level 3 Keeper of Secrets for more fun. Of course Tzeentch has better.

I'll say this twice. They are the fastest Daemon Summoning army in the game.

They are the fastest Daemon Summoning army in the game. Warlocks can roll on Malefic and are level one, they can jump into a Jetbike and blast all over the board summoning Daemons everywhere and they'll be on Jetbikes. Throw in some Wraithknights and Farseer, you now have army that at minimum and easily can get 40 or more Warp Charge in 1500 points and everything moves 12 and has a jink save.

Brutal, brutal, brutal. Probably the best army in the game other than Daemons at summoning them. Mainly for their Maneuverability and complete power. They can summon and shoot at you or Blast away with Turboboost. At some point in the near future someone who understands Eldar way more than me is going to make this army and it's going to literally break the goddamn game. All the strengths of a Daemon army, with Maneuverability and they fly around with a 2+ cover save. So enjoy that when someone takes 10 Warlocks a Farseer 6 Minimum Squad size Jetbikes and allies in some Daemons. It of course get's worse when you consider the ability to do combined arms. They shore up everything and if you are playing a Slaanesh army and you should , have some enslaved Eldar cause that is awesome sauce. So really a great ally or a great Primary.

Dark Eldar are the next available choice that compliment the armies weaknesses very very well. Mainly Anti Tank and speed. Darklances have excellent range, excellent anti tank and you can shoot them from very far away. Also Dark Eldar are one of the fastest armies in the game so being able to immediately put pressure on your enemy while you summon up more Daemons is pretty great.

Orks are a whole different beat, with the new codex coming out it's hard to figure out what will be good but we do know 2 things, they're dirt cheap and can be fast. It depends on how many models you want on the table cause I could easily see pushing the numbers into the above 500 range with a dedicated summoning contingent and a main force of Orks. Neither army has amazing shooting but it's something to consider. If even playing at points in the 1500 range you'll still just absolutely overwhelm your opponent with just volume of models, whether they'll do anything is another story.

Grey Knights, hilariously you can ally Daemons with Greyknights. Greyknights and Daemons is going to be a ton of Warp Charge similar to Eldar, but over all they don't have a lot of quick antitank. They're Marines that get all sorts of special abilities. It's probably better if Grey Knights are the primary in this case.

Sisters of Battle , they are a army that Games Workshop makes and are offered for purchase. That's all I know about them.

Inquisition, similar to Grey Knights the army is pretty excellent in having 1 HQ to choose and 1 Troop choice and some transports and other stuff. They're more of a ally choice. Having Coteaz be in your army for a reroll on Seize is hilarious.

Imperial Knights , actually a really crazy good choice for Daemons to ally in and for them to ally with. I'm sure eventually there will be a Chaos Knight box but not yet. Regardless they are a excellent army to ally in. Knights are a very powerful unit. The benefit you get from them is Battlecannons , Anti Troop, Anti Tank w/ Melta. A great choice. Your opponent with have a hard time dealing with 2 Knights walking across the field while you run around summoning more Daemons.

Necrons don't really offer to much in the form of utility that something like Imperial Guard or CSM could provide. Your getting them for shooting and while a unit of Wraiths is great all the really great stuff really does depend on them having a full FOC, so it makes more sense to use them as the Primary and ally in Daemons. Plus it has the added benefit of adding some Warp Charge to dispel with.

Tau are a great choice for Daemons to ally with, pretty low cost and Mega Shooty armies. A good army to ally in especially battle suits for utility. The army has a lot of choices to make and are similar in Imperial but with the benefit of getting Riptides. Daemons make a great ally to them as they add Warp Charge and give some much needed CC squads that they otherwise don't really have.

Alright so that pretty much sums up the armies to ally with. I'm sure I left off one or two and I'll add them if I remember. A thing to remember though about having Come the Apocalypse, yes if you have to set up 12 away and if with in 6 you have to roll. Here's where it is actually beneficial for you though. Fateweaver. He lets you reroll that so that's a big boost on taking him if you are allying.

Some nice stuff so far, thanks for the effort ...

Indeed, nice work.

As I'm playing Eldar, is there a threshold of dice (warp charges) necessary to benefit from the summoning of Daemons?

 wuestenfux wrote:
Indeed, nice work.

As I'm playing Eldar, is there a threshold of dice (warp charges) necessary to benefit from the summoning of Daemons?

I don't know what you are asking. Like how many warp charges it takes to cast a WC3 power?

 CrownAxe wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Indeed, nice work.

As I'm playing Eldar, is there a threshold of dice (warp charges) necessary to benefit from the summoning of Daemons?

I don't know what you are asking. Like how many warp charges it takes to cast a WC3 power?

Sorry, no, I didn't.

With my Eldar, I can get to 10 to 20 warp charges, depending on whether I take one or two Seer Councils.

On the other hand, summoning a single unit of 10 Horrors each turn might not really add to the strength of an army.

I've just realised something.

Playing this as generic Daemon Factory where you just spam units left right and centre is all well and good, but how about using it like a toolbox?

Oh, I need an objective holder... Spawn PBs. I need to take out a unit of Crisis Suits... Spawn Bloodletters.

Could work?

Puscifer wrote:
I've just realised something.

Playing this as generic Daemon Factory where you just spam units left right and centre is all well and good, but how about using it like a toolbox?

Oh, I need an objective holder... Spawn PBs. I need to take out a unit of Crisis Suits... Spawn Bloodletters.

Could work?

Indeed, this is the way a Daemon factory should be used.

Fast moving units, objective holders, tarpit units, cc oriented units. The Daemon codex offers everything.

Allied Detachments

I'll be going through each army but not listing actual point values excepting the Daemon Detachments but specific units from these armies that make up deficiencies. The first selection is for allying Daemons into your army and the types will be broken down into Fast, Survivable, Maximum Warp Charge, Survivable and FMC. I'll leave off most wargear as that is something that's been discussed. Whether you upgrade the units is up to you the two pieces of Wargear you really want to purchase though are Portaglyph and Grimoire. I'll try to keep most selections in the 500 to 750 point range. It's difficult to write down exactly the perfect allied detachment for you. Can only give suggestions on units and what you want.

Daemon Allied Detachment

Fast
Herald of Tzeentch Level 3 on a Chariot
Herald of Tzeentch Level 3 on Disc
Minimum : 120 +
Herald of Slaanesh Level 2 on Chariot
Minimum: 120+
Troops
Pink Horrors
Minimum : 90 Points

Fast attack
Screamers of Tzeentch
Minimum: 75

Each Herald of Slaanesh will add 2, Each Herald of Tzeentch w/ add 3 max. This is a great detachment selection for an army that doesn't want to just stay on the "ground" and have a lot of Maneuverability. Everything excepting the Pinks can move 12 then summon then move an additional 12 minimum (15 on the chariots). It's also excellent units for Deep Striking accompanying an army that manipulates reserves, especially the Heralds of Slaanesh due to their total move of 15 after deep striking from being fast and Slaanesh! So you can deepstrike, then immediately summon then move again during shooting. The Screamers of Tzeentch should be considered if you are really worried about your Heralds surviving as they are good ablatives. If your army is for example based around Reserve manipulation its a great thing. Make sure to put a Icon and Instrument on the Pink Horrors and put them in first. A combination for this army though is taking 2 Chariots of Slaanesh making them Level 2, then taking 2 Heralds of Tzeentch , fish for the group shrouding and you have two chariots that have a 2+ cover save. Oh and they have a total move of 30 inches a turn total. Heralds on Discs deepstriking in and summoning then blasting 24 inches away from you is probably something people won't like as well.

Survivable

HQ:
Daemon Prince of Nurgle Level 3
Minimum : 200
Great Unclean One
Minimum : 200
Herald of Nurgle Level 2 w/ a Palaquin
Minimum : 100
Herald of Tzeentch w/ LvL 3 , Chariot
Minimum : 100
Troops
Pink Horrors 10 to 20

Heavy Support
Daemon Prince of Nurgle

The most expensive option is when you get into survivability a decked out Great Unclean one if you want a T7 summoner can't be beat. He's expensive. On the less Expensive side of things are the Heralds of Nurgle w/ Palaquins. Two of them is gonan run the cost of one buffed Great Unclean one. It's a great choice for an army though. A buffed Daemon prince and one single squad of Pink Horrors though is gonna set you back around 700 points. The disadvantage is that you wont really have as much warp charge and you'll be actually spending more points. The Herald of Tzeentch on a Chariot is included because seriously it's hard to kill a 4+ invulnerable , Jinking 30 Inch move Chariot. This a good army that compliments armies with low toughness values.

Maximum Warp , Minimum Cost

HQ
Herald of Tzeentch LVL 3
Minimum 95
Herald of Tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch w/ LVL 3 and Portaglyph
Minimum 120
Total
10 to 20 Pink Horrors

Cheap summoning Fodder, remember to save the points with a portaglyph by summoning pink horrors in the movement phase on 50% gaining a WArp Charge and then use the the lonesome Herald to join them for protection. 4 Heralds and 3 Minimum Squads of 11 w/ a Portaglpyh is gonna run you right at a little over 600 points. It's going to provide 12 Warp Charge from the HQ, 6 From the Squads, 1 from the Portaglyph on a 50% chance for a total of 18 to 19 + D6 Warp Charge First PSychic Phase turn. You can protect it by deepstriking it as well. It's the most point cost efficient. If you want to go lower go with 4 Heralds and 1 Pink Horror but realize you would only have a max of 13 or so which is only enough to really summon 2 units. Its also good to stick your Heralds in the Pink Horrors so they don't get shot to death

FMC


HQ
Lord of Change Level 3
Minimum 200
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch w/ Wings LVL 3
Minimum 200
Fateweaver
Minimum 300
Troops
10 to 20 Pink Horrors
Minimum 90
Best Option
2 12 Pink Horrors
Fast Attack
Chaos Furies 5 to 20 ( Slaanesh)
Minimum 35
H. Support
Daemon Prince w/ Wings Tzeentch Level 3

It's really not the most efficient summoning allies but it has fliers that can fly and summon. The max your gonna get is two with Allying in. Minimum Points on this is 500. You should use this is if you have other Psykers in your army that add more to the warp pool because unless you purchase more Pink Horrors for More Warp Charge you'll be on the low end. A Decked out Lord of Change and a Daemon Prince in the H. Support at minim 600 points. You'll notice something weird I have Chaos Furies in there. Well they actually got a buff with Scoring, they're Jump Troops but they can benefit from cursed earth so they can be 8 point models with a mark of Slaanesh that have rending and a 4++. It's not terrible. It's a expensive army and not a good choice unless your army also adds to the warp charge.


Overall allying with Daemons is a great way to multiply your force easily and quickly while it may not be the fluffiest option unless you consider some back stories regarding Imperial Guard, Traitor Inquisitors and Eldar who worship Slaanesh ( I think that's a thing). It's a cheap way to add warp charge to your army and compliment it by adding in some proficiencies that you may not have. The lists you pick can also suit your army, if you are a tough as nails Imperial Fist Chapter Fallen to Chaos you can take something that isn't going to be weak in the knees, a Dark Eldar Raiding Party you can keep up with them with Chariots and fliers. It's really up to you.

Daemons as Primary Detachment w/ Allies

Allying in different armies is a great way to shore up the deficiencies the army has against AV , Fliers, and add some firepower that the army may lack in the shooting phase and there are some armies that add a huge benefit to the army as a whole.

Chaos Space Marines

Your only choice for Battle Brothers, the only army that benefits greatly from having the Daemon Rule on it's troops and has access to Sanctic for some weird reason. It's got a still rather good flier. As mentioned previously it has one of the best Psykers in the game for summoning now. I'll discuss it more later but here are some great units that benefit your army greatly and take away some deficiencies you may have. These of course are just what make just excellent choices for you as a Daemon Player. They also of course mix really well with taking Chaos Daemons as their Ally Detachment. Even more so when you consider the options of taking 4 HQ that add Warp Chare for 1 HQ and then a Additional 2 HQ if the Chaos Space Marines are Primary. That alone will net you 24 Warp Charge. I won't really be going to much into the wargear options except two items particularly, Spell Familiars and the wargear from Crimson Slaughter. Prophet of the Voices.

HQ:
Chaos Sorcerer Unmarked w/ Spell Familiar , Level 3
Minimum : 120 +
Crimson Slaughter Chaos Sorcerer w/ Spell Familiar, Level 3
Minimum : 120+
Daemon Prince of Chaos w/ Spell Familiar Level 3 , With Mark
Minimum : 140+
Ahriman
Minimum :100
So yeah there are some great choice here in the HQ, Chaos Sorcerers add to the overall Warp Pool and are actually the best casters in the game due to the reroll ability. Daemon Princes lose out a little bit due to losing a spell due to the stupid rule of picking one from their Chaos God, but they do get 4 powers. Ahriman is a beast of course. ML4, although his staff ability does nothing now. Still loses out a bit because well perils but also because he loses 2 Powers to the Tzeentch table.

Crimson Slaughter wins the most. Being able to become Daemons, cheap, with a spell familiar. Oh and he can get a 2+ invulnerable possibly. He can only join Possessed but now Possessed are troops for them and if you roll well they can all be 2+. Oh yea.. that's not the bad thing. Possessed can take Icon of Excess ( hope I got that right) and get Feel No Pain. They're Daemons so they get the +1 from Cursed Earth, Oh and they don't scatter near Cursed Earth if you can figure out how to teleport them.

Now, if you do not choose to be a Daemon this is where the hilarity comes into play. You can choose Sanctic. Now this is where it gets crazy town funny. He has a spell familiar. He can get Hammerhand, Gate of Infinity, Sanctuary and Purge Soul. He get's to reroll his failures, he can cast all of these at a Level 1 with 1 Dice, rerolling his failures and never suffering a peril.

Here are his percentages for success the first number is without the reroll




Here are the perils, 2nd number is the chance to perils but just remember that he is only going to have to roll if he fails the first time , I did not add those into that calculation. It's only if you do roll it, doesn't actually double it.It's just what it looks like it does you actually have to calculate that your not going to roll it to begin with, because you have to calculate that your not going to roll it to begin with.









He can join Possessed Troops. I am going to put that here again and underline it. He can join Squads and give them +1 to their Invulnerable. I will underline this, this stacks with Cursed Earth. He can join Squads that are Daemons, they treat the ground around them as Dangerous Terrain, Obliterators don't care.. Possessed can become Beasts. He can be on a bike. Obliterators can use Gate of Infinity.

He's incredibly powerful. He can roll on Sanctic get Hammerhand , Sanctuary, or Gate of Infinity, then immediately go back to rolling on Malefic.

Daemon Princes , a much tougher summoner. Pretty much has a little bit different Chaos Mark gifts, Tzeentch gives him +1 to his save with Cursed Earth pushing it to a 3++. His only negative is that he has to take two spells basically from his God, but honestly that's not terrible they're all pretty decent. The big benefit as before is the Spell Familiar he can get. A Guy who can fly around the battlefield summoning a Daemon army with T6, 4+ invulnerable and rerolls failed Psychic tests is amazing. Pretty much on the level w/ Chaos Sorcerers that are also Daemons with the added benefit you know, he can fly.

Elites:
Plague Marines
Minimum :100
Noise Marines
Minimum: 100
Thousand Son
Minimum : 100
Chaos Terminators
Minimum : 100
Possessed
Minimum : 150

All of these are amazing. Also it's worth noting that you could in fact take a Mark of Tzeentch on a Sorcerer and get Thousand Sons as troops. It's to bad you can't do this for Noise Marines, but what are you gonna do.He'll lose access to one of his spells but he'll have 4 total 2 Tzeentch 2 Other. Boon of Mutation can be a fun thing to do to Great Unclean ones or other Greater Daemons, just because of all the different things that they can get. I mean if you want to take that chance.

Plague Marines with two meltas in a rhino riding around going after AV12 + is a great choice and very affordable. If you need a unit to sit in your backfield behind a Aegis with a Com Relay they are really great and survivable while you wait for your 2nd turn to deepstrike your Daemon Army.

Noise Marines, amazing. Great backfield holders, put behind a Aegis line with Sonicblasters and Blastermasters again another great unit. Their weapon is amazing and has the range as well.

Tzeentch, Same thing great units to camp with. AP3 cuts down Marines.

Chaos Terminators - A variety of options and the ability to be a cheap "Termicide" these guys are excellent for dropping in on the enemy to rid yourself of some of those Squadron of Leman Russes or the best use get rid of those really annoying out of LOS barrage units. One of the best counters to that.

Possessed - Instantly got better with being scoring now and getting the +1 from Cursed Earth. Crimson Slaughter Possessed Edge them out though, with them being able to be 3++ and Rending and be taken as troops. Still expensive though, and probably not the most efficient way to spend points as really their best taking in large units to be more point efficient with the banners.

Chosen are still garbage you notice I didn't mention them

Troops
Chaos Cultists
Minimum points :50
Chaos Space Marines : Minimum Points 50
Possessed - Crimson Slaughter.

All the other units you can make troops but probably shouldn't unless you desperately want a Chaos Lord over a Daemon Prince or Chaos Sorcerer who compliment your army more. You can't argue though with taking a Mark of Tzeentch on your Sorcerer and making those Thousand Sons troops. Plus you know you can put the Sorcerer in there and go for Sanctuary or Gate of Infinity.

Each has it's role, Chaos Cultists make cheap good requirement fulfillers and great wounds for Sacrifice. As well as a hilariously funny 5+ Invulnerable save unit if you take a Chaos Sorcerer and he get's Sanctuary.

Chaos Space Marines - A pretty decent unit that has a lot of options, a meltagun, combimelta w/ Rhino will run you a little bit over a 100 points. They can also go ten man and take an Autocannon or another meltagun which is decent enough shooting. Kind of get outshone though when you have them in a Ally detachment and look at the point cost of the Elites. One of the Cheaper marks is Tzeentch so there's that good Sanctuary combo rearing it's head again. you don't have many FOCs in a Ally Detachment except for troops so if you need some Tank Killers in a Rhino and you've used up your other FOCs taking a squad that has 2 meltaguns and runs around in a Rhino is not the worst thing you could be doing.

Possessed (Crimson Slaughter) Now the thing with these guys is they can be Troops with a Crimson Slaughter army, they get a huge boost in functionality because it frees up a Elite FOC. They're not terrible and as stated previously Cursed Earth buffs them. Also having a Psyker with them isn't a bad choice if he's rolling with Hammerhand. If he's your Daemon Summoner, with the Daemon Wargear these guys make excellent excellent Retinues it's the only squad he can join. The thing to remember with them and their Icons is that the more you take the more valuable the icon gets. Sure Excess may be expensive but in a squad of 10 it's only paying 3 or so points for Feel No Pain which is a good deal. Plus their champion get's to roll on the boon table. Also, if you have a Sorcerer he can cast Gate of Infinity on them and then they'll scatter just D6 near a Icon.

Fast Attack:
Heldrake
Minimum : 150
Chaos Space Marine Bikes
Minimum : 100
Raptors
Minimum : 100
Warp Talons
Minimum : 100


As far as I am aware these are the only two Fast FOCs available to Chaos Space Marines, Heldrakes and Bike Squads. Heldrake benefits from a Cursed Earth but then , it get's a Jink save and a 5+, although still unclear if you jink with a flyer if you can fire a template. It's a great unit, yeah it got a nerf with the faq but it didn't suddenly stop being good. Plus if you've got a Grimoire it's pretty funny to select it as a choice for it.

Chaos Space Marine Bikes are fast, can come with 2 Meltaguns, and a combimelta. They're expensive though and really best bought in Large units. If your going with a Chaos Sorcerer on a bike they add some extra wounds. You can really spend a lot on these guys and deck them out.

Okay fine, there are other FOCS , Warp Talons do in fact benefit from Cursed Earth, and if your trying to go for some combo where you give them Hammer Hand with a Sorcerer, they actually become pretty good. If you get Hammerhand. If not you are going to take them and be like "Welp". Raptors on the other hand are another mobile unit that can get two meltaguns and get a 5+ with Mark of Tzeentch , Feel No Pain with Banner. It's expensive though and you have to hope your Sorcerer who is accompanying them get's those spells from Sanctic and you get them off , but it can't be ignored that they can in fact be pretty cheap jump troops with a boost in power from a Sorcerer. Raptors can deepstrike with the Meltaguns so that's another ability to use to get to units out of LOS that are ground pounding you.

The thing is you've only got one FOC when using the Ally Detachment and you should probably use it for a Heldrake despite the nerf if you don't have the points or a very very specific plan on using them the other units can just be left alone and this FOC ignored.

H. Support
Havocs
Minimum : 100
Obliterators
Minimum : 70
Defilers:
Minimum: 100
Maulerfiend
Minimum: 100
Land Raider
Minimum : 100

Okay so this is the final FOC for Chaos and it's a difficult choice as there are several units that benefit the army greatly and have a great combo with them. Obliterators are a expensive unit that get +1 from Cursed Earth have antitank and a multitude of choices. You can't argue with a unit that can be T5, 4+ invulnerable. The best thing about Obliterators is the wonderful tactic of teleporting them around with a Sorcerer with Gate of Infinity near Icons and only scattering D6. They're also one of the few Deal with most everything units. Really expensive, really versatile.

Now normally people look at Havocs and go , no thanks. They shouldn't be ignored in this case because you have Access to Divination! Yes, as we talked about earlier Versatility will bring you more to this army. They're battle brothers so can most certainly cast Divination on a squad of Havocs which a really good thing to do. You can go the expensive route of Lascannons and Icons of Excess but then you might as well take some Obliterators who are more versatile. The part where they shine is that for around 100+ they can have 4 Autocannons, and 8 ST7 shots that reroll 3+s can't be ignored.

Defilers get a bonus of being scoring and having the benefit of getting a +1 from Cursed Earth. Head to Head a Soul Grinder beats it every single time, however it can be a good way to put in more giant feth you AV12 + 4++ Invulnerable units. It also has it will not die. It's more expensive though than a Soul Grinder and a small squad of Oblits but it's still pretty good now with Cursed Earth.

Maulerfiend, its in the same situation as the Defiler its scoring now. It gets a bonus from cursed earth. It has no shooting attacks. It's pretty good though at tearing apart vehicles. It moves 12 and Fleets. Not the most awful choice in the world to take as it's good anti AV something army lacks. It's also not that expensive..

Land Raider is a AV14 all around and an expensive unit that comes with a lascannons can transport 10 models and since you are battle brothers makes a good mobile bunker for summoners it's to bad though because you can't cast anything but witchfire out of a transport now. So that is a huge detriment. It is AV14 though and super survivable.. You can also totally stick assault daemons in this thing . Why you would I do't know but it is pretty funny to drive up to a army then let out Daemons. It can get the sort of chaos Machine Spirit.

A Specific note about Shooting
You are battle brothers with Chaos Daemons , that have access to Divination which means Prescience. This army brings things you don't have Anti Tank, Anti Flyer, Anti MEQ, that can all have Prescience on it. No other army you ally with will you be able to Prescience. This makes the army shooting wise almost 100% more effective. This is why Versatility in spells is sooooo important.

Final Thoughts
It's a great army to ally with, it's also a great army that can take Daemons as allies both armies completely compliment each other and make up for deficiences both armies have. The Psychics can be overwhelming. You can use Divination to boost your effectiveness. Multiple units can benefit from an amazing spell and there are Combos out of the Wazoo. It's just one of the the best two army combos you can have now. Not just with Summoning but in general now with the Battle Brothers etc.. which really is how it should have always been. Now they just need to change that stupid Daemons can't join squads and Independent Characters can't join Daemons rule. They should be able to join if they have the same Mark.

Come the Apocalypse Armies and How to lose friends whens playing 40k

Note that Come the Apocalpyse can in fact ally with each other minus the 12 inch deployment bubble and the Desperate allies debuff, there are ultimately to many combinations to actually go through unless this is going to be 25 parts. I'm not going to go through every single army. Play the game how you want ,but your forging the narrative whatever that means shouldn't be "go to the gaming store and be an donkey-cave". There are in my view lots of scenario or themed based armies that work with allying come the apocalypse. Orks fallen to Chaos ( it does happen), etc.. I can't go through all 26 armies as I don't know all 26 armies well enough to write as in depth as I could with Chaos Space Marines. If you know that army and want to post it please do and I will add it. Then that will be it except for the previous comments made previously about them and what the Daemon army can bring to the table for them.

Out of the choices you have for Come the Apocalypse Allies, Eldar, Imperial Guard, Tau, and Imperial Knights. These are the armies you can do the most with and just be broken down to " I win". Facing 3 Imperial Knights and a Contingent of Summoning Daemons is not pleasant for anyone involved. Additional facing off against Eldar on Jetbikes that fly around and have Wraightknights, not fun. Imperial Guard are best bet for cheap, Anti AV and Fliers. The fact that you can ally in 4 Leman Russes shouldn't be ignored. It's very nasty.

So we'll move on to actual Tactics and Combos then Things that will kill you and how to deal. Give some sample army lists and be done.

The best two spells you can get are actually Summoning and Incursion.

With 6 Dice you can do it, as for a force multiplier I talked a little bit in it at the beginning but Plague bearers and Plague Drones are crazy good for holding objectives because of shrouded.

Indeed, early in the game your psykers will be in or close to the home zone. Then it will useful to summond Daemons that can hold objectives pretty well.

Later on, when the psykers are midfield or in the enemy zone cc oriented Daemons would be better.

Puscifer wrote:
I've just realised something.

Playing this as generic Daemon Factory where you just spam units left right and centre is all well and good, but how about using it like a toolbox?

Oh, I need an objective holder... Spawn PBs. I need to take out a unit of Crisis Suits... Spawn Bloodletters.

Could work?

I've only had a couple of games so far, and that's how I've used the summoning rules in each one. We were playing Maelstrom missions, and the ability to summon 3 Screamers 12" away, then turbo boost them to an objective was priceless.


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Hollismason wrote:
Incursion
Warp Charge 3

The last Summon unit Spell, you get either 3 BloodCrushers , 3 Fiends of Slaanesh, or 3 Plague Drones of Nurgle, or 3 Screamers of Tzeentch

The clear winners here are Bloodcrushers, Plague Drones, Fiends of Slaanesh. Screamers are great and all and yeah they have their Passover attack like an actual pass over you attack not the murdering of young infants in Egypt if you were confused, and the bite, which now isn't really that great it's a single attack. They also have 6 wounds total. Find some other thing to deal with Vehicles.

The 3 ones that win out though are Bloodcrushers, Plaguedrones, Fiends of Slaanesh. My choice Plague Drones, hard to argue with a JetPack Calvary that has T5, Shrouded, 4+ Poison Attacks, they don't get Rot and the other ability they can Purchase but that's still pretty good. Fiends win out on just having awesome abilities as well. They're just not as durable as Plague Drones, neither are Blood Crushers.

I disagree with your 'winners'. Screamers are a good choice here due to the increased mobility and endurance they can offer. Turbo boosting in shooting to lay down a few wounds is nice, as is rerolling 1s for failed saves and getting a Jink save. I might take Plague Drones if I owned any, but for now, I'll almost always pick Screamers for this spell.

Tactics and Combos


Deep Striking

One of the weaknesses of this army is the alpha strike. It's specifically weak against leaf-blower armies, that have heavy barrage weapons, as well non vehicle barrage such as the Thunderfire. One of your biggest assets is Deep Striking your army if you are playing Chaos Daemons. It lessens the blows, and with a Comm Relay and Icons you can pretty much guarantee most if not all of your army will be coming in on that initial 2nd turn. Investing in a Bastion or Aegis Defense Lien w/ Comm Relays is a definite must. I talked earlier about how important it is to have some sort of Fortification. You should just make a allotment of points 75 to 100 that you are taking a fortification. Investing in that 10 point musician for your Pink Horrors allows you a almost guarantee that the Soul Grinder or Daemon Prince will arrive.

The other thing that Deepstrike allows is a really great ability to get to those out of LOS Barrage units. With clever placement and Icons, you can deep strike near ( yes they work the turn they arrive, please take to YMDC if you disagree) and land a Herald of Tzeentch or a Herald of Slaanesh near one.

Dealing with Artillery, Barrage, and Vehicle Squadrons : To deal with Thunderfires or any Artillery that has a Toughness deepstrike a Herald of Slaanesh near them with Psychic Scream The unit as a whole takes wounds and TFs have a LD of 8. To Deal with Wyverns that are not ass up against the board deepstrike in a Herald of Tzeentch and blast off a high level Flickering Fire, bonus points if you included the Icon for +1 STR and have him on a Disc so he can carry his ass away afterwards. This is also a great tactic for dealing with Squadrons of Vehicles that are not Landraiders. Best thing to do would roll on Divination get something like Misfortune or Precognition and enjoy.

Killing Imperial Knights : The most efficient way to actually kill these is stripping hull points. They don't got great rear armour. A Herald of Tzeentch Landing behind them or a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh with a Lash has a pretty good chance to not only Penetrate but glance that bastard to death. Here's the best part , Your shooting takes place in the Psychic Phase he doesn't get his shield.

Burning Chariot of Tzeentch The big boost you got though was the Burning Chariot of Tzeentch, before the thing was useless now since it's fast and relentless it can fire without having to Snapshot when it deepstrikes in. Pretty nasty piece of work, Oh and the -1 LD from the Blue Scribes, helps with Psychic Scream. This thing is a straight up beast , sure it's flamer is ST 5 not a 6 but that gak is just nitpicking. Get it near something that has the Shrouded Spell up and enjoy a 2+ Jink Save or a 4+ cover save. This thing deep striking in is now your Heldrake. It has one less strength ,but comes with D3 ST9 AP2, it's literally one of the few things in the army that can crack AP14. The only downside is there are no super fast Daemons of Tzeentch Able to get Icons but that doesn't matter as you can bring them in off a Pink Horror squad. Seriously, it's insanely good now. Combine this with Outflanking , Summoning Psychic Screaming Heralds of Slaanesh as well since it gives a -1 to any unit with in 6 inches of it. Or just Terrify models off the board. Great ability now, and function and dirt cheap. Take them.



Outflanking Heralds of Slaanesh on Steeds can outflank. Don't worry about that nasty piece of work Thunderfire that's giving you problems you can Psychic Scream it to death, then Summon some Daemons. You'd be surprised how much it pisses people off to have 2 or 3 Summoners show up along with a Deepstriking army , along with a squad of Seekers carrying a Icon. You can't charge the turn you come in but who cares you just put your entire army down and started summoning. I'll take that over a extra level of Psychic Mastery, god help them if you rolled something crazy on telepathy like Invisibility or Shrouded, then just run in the center of the army and give everyone a cover save. This puts immediate pressure on your opponent, especially if you dropped some Soul Grinders and maybe a Burning Chariot in there along with a Daemon Prince. I mean think about this 4 Heralds Outflank, then 3 Soul Grinders Drop in On your opponent, then you summon a bunch of Daemons. Yea...... that's not fun.

You gotta Friend in Chaos (Space Marines) Don't ignore your friends, nothing says I love you more than a Chaos Sorcerer w/ spell familiar in Terminator Armour and Prophet of the Voices deepstriking in, sure he can't join any other squad of possessed but who cares. Add in some Obliterators who are also Daemons and have reduced scatter and you have a pretty fun little group of people to send in that are nasty. Take 3 Spells in Biomancy and hang a sign on him that says " Come at me Bro". Nobody wants to mess with someone who has any of the Biomancy abilities especially when they have a Weapon that causes instant death and are T7. Or just summon Daemons. He's a Daemon because of Prophets so he can summon them no problem.

Okay, so Deepstrike is one of your biggest tactical tools you have in your utilikilt. Can you get wiped on the first turn if you do it , yes. It's possible for a Alpha Strike army to "out alphastrike" you. They could blow up your bastion turn one , then your sol.Is that likely to happen? No probably not. Especially if you have troops in that Bastion and something hiding out of LOS. If you wanna be a dick, you can always and this is a gakky thing to do Place your bastion diagonal at board edge so that there's this little "buffer" area behind it and stick a Greater Daemon there. It's kind of dick thing to do though and you may not get a deployment zone with a corner.

It's also the approach you should have of really getting pressure on your opponent early and not letting up. Be up in their business with deepstriking while you comfortably move around the board summoning units and taking objectives. It's also the counter to a lot of armies.

Hollismason wrote:
I'll add that into the OP as that is a very good tactic with the Screamers, but Fiends of Slaanesh are just as fast really.

I don't think Screamers are terrible I just think that when compared to the functionality of the other choices they lose out due to the low wound count and the inability to hold a objective by their lonesome. Also just even point wise they get beat out by 30 or more points by the other choices that have more wounds. Also, Instability check can just wipe that whole unit out.

Plague Drones are pretty fast, they get the Jetpack move. They can't run but meh. As for taking and holding an objective, Plague Drones. They've got a good offensive ability, and I'll take a bunch of attacks that Glance on 6s over the Screamers ability.

The Fiends ability to drop Initiative is just to good as a back up charge unit along with having Rending. Really hard to fault that unit.

Bloodcrushers charging ST6 is pretty amazing as well.

For the most part, I've found Bloodcrushers to be garbage. They were amazing in 5th Ed, less so in 6th before the new Daemon codex. Once that new codex hit I haven't been other than disappointed with Bloodcrushers.

Honestly in almost all categories of summoning except the Fleshhounds Khorne loses out. It's pretty much the worst choice in almost every category.

Can't argue to hard though with a ST6 on a charge. Previously when you had to "purchase" them they were garbage, now you to summon a unit which edges them up a bit.

You might want to note that you want the horrors summoning 9 times out of 10 for regular summoning instead of the Heralds due to perils. Especially since the Herald is just as good at shooting as the unit is so you're not losing anything but saving your herald some potential wounds.

Good call on the chariots I hadn't gotten that far yet. Nice catch

 Hulksmash wrote:
You might want to note that you want the horrors summoning 9 times out of 10 for regular summoning instead of the Heralds due to perils. Especially since the Herald is just as good at shooting as the unit is so you're not losing anything but saving your herald some potential wounds.

Good call on the chariots I hadn't gotten that far yet. Nice catch

Sacrifice is also WC1 instead of WC3 for Summoning, so it's easier to cast too.


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Hollismason wrote:
Previously when you had to "purchase" them they were garbage, now you to summon a unit which edges them up a bit.

Yeah, I had considered that. You get three 3W models when you pick Bloodcrushers, so you're getting more wounds per cast. I'd probably rate them above Fiends, but that might also be due to having no Fiend models while having 9 'crushers that I haven't had the heart to put on the shelf yet.

I don't know if I would ever field a demon factory, but I like the flavor of it. A rip into the fabric of the Warp and the demons spill forth in seemingly endless numbers...

I'm getting a rules clarification on something that I may add.

How is the formatting and reading?

First one of these.

I'd consider hiding some of the information in Spoiler tags just to keep it neat.

tl;dr version of OP: khorne is crapper than ever. Even our exclusively melee greater daemon is the worst greater daemon at melee.

Thanks GW

 undertow wrote:
I'd consider hiding some of the information in Spoiler tags just to keep it neat.

Thank you that is a good idea, just added some more items specifically the Heralds of Slaanesh on a Seeker Chariot.

I'm finding this to be a fascinating read, and look forward to your additions.

I don't think people are going to like my thoughts on Fateweaver.

Hollismason wrote:
I don't think people are going to like my thoughts on Fateweaver.

I've always been a huge fan of Fateweaver. He does more than assure that the Grimoire goes off. I use his reroll constantly for things such as:

- grounding tests (not as key anymore due to grounding changes for FMCs, but still useful)
- psychic tests
- deny the witch tests
- getting a better result when using Psychic Scream
- rerolling one of the Warp Storm dice to get a more targeted result
- run distance
- deep strike distance
- portalglyph spawns
- daemonic instability tests

He also gets to reroll the entire Warp Storm result, which has saved me a few times. I think there's more value to him than just counting up how many Mastery Levels you can get for the same cost. Granted when you take him you sort of need a durable model to hold the Grimoire, but then you'll almost never give up Slay the Warlord.

Well yeah he gives a reroll, but I just feel in the specific instance of a Summoning Army he doesn't serve to much of a purpose that can't be easily made up for in other ways. He's a great character though.

Don't forget his warlord trait.

You can now reroll Warlord if Battleforged so I was going to talk about that as well. Thank you for mentioning it I had forgotten to mention it.

i feel up in theair about fate, his rerolls are great but im not sure if his offensive out put and the rerolls warrant his point cost for a factory.

do you think nurgle heralds are best for getting in portaglyphs and the grimorie? i like thier added toughness since they'll be alone in the begging. drop in cover, and hide till the following turn.

are we able to use conjured heralds for possession on the turn we get them?

i totally agree that the thirster is only a good option turn 1&2, after that i think its just the keepers game, possibly guo.
really love the slaanesh and chariots.

 zachwho wrote:
i feel up in theair about fate, his rerolls are great but im not sure if his offensive out put and the rerolls warrant his point cost for a factory.

do you think nurgle heralds are best for getting in portaglyphs and the grimorie? i like thier added toughness since they'll be alone in the begging. drop in cover, and hide till the following turn.

are we able to use conjured heralds for possession on the turn we get them?

i totally agree that the thirster is only a good option turn 1&2, after that i think its just the keepers game, possibly guo.
really love the slaanesh and chariots.

You can't cast conjuration spells the turn a psyker is summoned but everything else is fair game. I agree about the Nurgle Heralds, their tough and difficult to kill , the same problem though that you have with Slaanesh is that they have to go with a squad or really they can just be picked out pretty easily by your opponent. It's the same problem with Heralds of Slaanesh.

Might also be worth talking about allies. An allied inquisitor with servo skulls both adds to WCs and helps stop fast scouts from tearing into you early. I hear they can get cheap psychic henchmen too.

Yes, I am going to talk about that. Thanks for reminding me.

Just a correction, belakor is warp charge 3 not 4. He can get a bonus d3 if your opponent fails a morale in thier turn.

Im thinking the real trick with summoning lists, is how not to get wiped out by massed artillery or drop pods.

I'm getting to that. Just finished the Unit selection.

Moving on to Fortifications then I'll do a write up for the Psychic Phase Spell order.

A Special Section for Broken Combos and then post some sample lists.

Almost done.

 Maddermax wrote:
Might also be worth talking about allies. An allied inquisitor with servo skulls both adds to WCs and helps stop fast scouts from tearing into you early. I hear they can get cheap psychic henchmen too.

Daemons w/ Inquisition, sounds legit =/

The Daemon army becomes more broke when you throw in Battle Brothered Chaos Space Marines. I'll make sure to include a section on Allies.

Mainly with Crimson Slaughter, as your warlord can be a Daemon, you can take Daemons as troops that have a 2+ Invulnerable, and there's a choice for a Daemon type in each FOC at that point.

Basically you can have one of the best Daemon Summoners in the game with Spell Familiar and just going all in with Malefic.

Chaos Sorcerer w/ 3 Levels (unmarked is important), Daemon thing from Crimson Slaughter a 4+ is about the same cost as a KoS.

Possessed near a Cursed Earth can with a good roll become a 2+ , 4+ Feel No Pain unit.

Good additions to the article all around, but extra points for the new thread title

If you're having Daemon problems I feel bad for you son I got 99 problems but the warp aint one

Thanks if anyone has any solution beyond Fortifications Bastion Hiding to protect against Alpha Strike Barrage decimating your Heralds, let me know.

I can't think of single thing other than hide in bastion cowering in fear until you can deepstrike or come out and start casting cursed earth and other buffs. Heralds of Slaanesh in Chariots can move reliably across the table 27 inches in a turn so that is some help to getting to things. I'll get into that in tactics.

The thing about daemon factories is that they are broken in that they take an hour per psychic phase, blegh The thing about daemon factories is that they are broken in that they take an hour per psychic phase,

Key facts about daemon factories;
-No alpha strike abilities; the daemon factory will devote the first turn it gets to summoning and buffing. This gives you at least 1 turn to hit the daemon factory with everything you have and absolutely no need to turtle to avoid first turn damage. The most you have to worry about is flamers and screamers which most armies will not be significantly threatened by.
-They are infantry based with some MCs. If the daemon factory conjures FMC then they cannot hurt you for another turn.
-Conjured units are not part of a battleforged army list and do NOT have objective secured.
+Customization; the daemons can select the units that will be most useful. To counter this you should bring TAC lists with answers to MCs without saves, infantry, chariots, 2+ cover saves, etc. You will have to understand what the units conjured do and prioritize killing the units that can actually harm you. ie if you play leman russ spam the melee threats that can charge you next turn and screamers pass overs are your big threats, kill them.
+Psychic phase "domination"; you will have trouble getting psychic powers off if you have 3 times less dice than the opponent. However keep in mind those ~3 deny the witch dice can stop cursed earth from going off and make the opponent loose a summons attempt.

People are looking at the daemon factory lists in a vacuum and so it looks like 3000+ pts versus 1500 pts. However how much would you give to remain unmolested for 2-3 turns? Daemon factory lists have no real alpha strike abilities. These lists will average +40 T3 Sv5/4+ models a turn. Some armies might find that challenging to tackle however most armies will find this entirely manageable to kill and should in fact be able to grind the opponent down over the course of the game. The biggest problem about discussing this is that the methods to tackle the daemon factory are totally different depending on army. A banner of devastation ravenwing army, a space marine scout army, and a necron transcendent C'Tan based army are going to have seriously different methods to win the game.

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but if I recall Warp Tether works with Sacrifice doesn't it? Granted, you have to pay a lot for the 'chance' to get it, but it's a thought.

 ansacs wrote:
The thing about daemon factories is that they are broken in that they take an hour per psychic phase, blegh The thing about daemon factories is that they are broken in that they take an hour per psychic phase,

Key facts about daemon factories;
-No alpha strike abilities; the daemon factory will devote the first turn it gets to summoning and buffing. This gives you at least 1 turn to hit the daemon factory with everything you have and absolutely no need to turtle to avoid first turn damage. The most you have to worry about is flamers and screamers which most armies will not be significantly threatened by.
-They are infantry based with some MCs. If the daemon factory conjures FMC then they cannot hurt you for another turn.
-Conjured units are not part of a battleforged army list and do NOT have objective secured.
+Customization; the daemons can select the units that will be most useful. To counter this you should bring TAC lists with answers to MCs without saves, infantry, chariots, 2+ cover saves, etc. You will have to understand what the units conjured do and prioritize killing the units that can actually harm you. ie if you play leman russ spam the melee threats that can charge you next turn and screamers pass overs are your big threats, kill them.
+Psychic phase "domination"; you will have trouble getting psychic powers off if you have 3 times less dice than the opponent. However keep in mind those ~3 deny the witch dice can stop cursed earth from going off and make the opponent loose a summons attempt.

People are looking at the daemon factory lists in a vacuum and so it looks like 3000+ pts versus 1500 pts. However how much would you give to remain unmolested for 2-3 turns? Daemon factory lists have no real alpha strike abilities. These lists will average +40 T3 Sv5/4+ models a turn. Some armies might find that challenging to tackle however most armies will find this entirely manageable to kill and should in fact be able to grind the opponent down over the course of the game. The biggest problem about discussing this is that the methods to tackle the daemon factory are totally different depending on army. A banner of devastation ravenwing army, a space marine scout army, and a necron transcendent C'Tan based army are going to have seriously different methods to win the game.

You are making a lot of assumptions right now and while I am happy to read your opinions, please consider we haven't even gotten to Army Lists, the Pyschic Phase, or Shooting.

I honestly feel like you just posted without reading a single thing I wrote.








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 l0k1 wrote:
I don't know if it's been mentioned, but if I recall Warp Tether works with Sacrifice doesn't it? Granted, you have to pay a lot for the 'chance' to get it, but it's a thought.

Honestly not sure waiting for some definitive argument out of YMDC before I add it. If it does I will but not sure.

this is awesome so far, love the new title!

Hollismason wrote:
You are making a lot of assumptions right now and while I am happy to read your opinions, please consider we haven't even gotten to Army Lists, the Pyschic Phase, or Shooting.

I honestly feel like you just posted without reading a single thing I wrote.

Yeah, I posted this in the wrong thread...sorry.

I stand by the length of the phase being broken.

The alpha strike ability of the daemon factory is abysmal though. I did read your entire OP. The units which can actually matter the turn they summon all have limited range, have to pass over the target, or have to pump a large number of WC into their witchfires to have meaningful output. Most gunlines or tough shooty armies (leman russ, riptide, waveserpent spam). Will essentially experience 1-3 turns of being unmolested depending on your initial factory "workers". Your suggestion for chariots definitely would help lessen this gap but it also depends on getting some of the right rolls to go your way. If you 5 dice summonings which is most efficient you may very well not get any of your chariot herald summoning off but all your pink horrors...which leaves the opponent lots of breathing room.

I do like you suggestion to use chariots though.

I also totally agree with you need to tailor the units to bring to the table to the opponent rather than just summoning pink horrors to max WC.

I would value screamers and flamers a bit higher than you. The reason for this is that they can contribute right from turn they are summoned with their ranged attacks and pass over abilities. Even if you summon 40 models if you leave the opponent entirely unmolested without even the ability to assault him for a turn there are a number of armies (Tau, IG, certain SM builds, etc.) which could remove your all 40 and a couple of your original units.

I also really like bloodcrushers as they are a serious threat to anything they can charge. With the range of summoning this means they could be charging anything within 30" very reliably. The same thing with plaguedrones however you loose damage in some categories for resiliency and a bit better threat range.

I was kind of thinking GUO, daemonettes, and blood letters would be nice roadblocks for fast assault armies. If an opponent can close fast enough and get some good multi assaults in they could wipe out your army much faster than you could summon. To this effect you really need to have accurate DS up and position your first turn conjurations to stop multi charges into your juicy summoning units.

The two units I am still not sure what the optimal counter conjuration for is imperial knights and GMC. For the knights I would say daemonettes, plague drones, and screamers. For GMC I would say daemonettes seem like your best bet or just make it eat through 2-3 summoned units a turn for the game. It seems like a transcendent C'Tan could be a real pain for a daemon factory.

I think that the factory works best on a smaller scale, with another force focussed on alpha strike (or as close as chaos can get). Run some spawn chaos lords and daemon princes up the centre, get the enemy tied up for a bit before you overwhelm with numbers.

Surviving artillery is a real challenge. Only thing that comes to mind is the skyshield, combed with cursed earth and shrouded then you have a good platform for summoners (albeit static).

Then if you use grey knight psyker mounted in paybacks as your battery, they are resilient and have good damage output. Deosn't make best use of Coteaz. Also an inquisitor with servo skulls can shut down scout.

And then .. why not take a knight?

One thing to note with the new rulebook is that Fortifications aren't in the book itself - you have to go to Stronghold Assault for even the Aegis line.
With that in mind, it will be hard for TO's to justify stopping you from taking other models in the book too.

Wall of Martyrs Imperial Bunker - Essentially a bastion without the heavy bolters.

Wall of Martyrs Vengeance weapon Battery -
For 75pts apiece you get 2 TL Skyfire/Interceptor lascannons on AV14 fortifications. They have a relatively large footprint so can provide good cover for other dudes to hide behind. Summon down some bloodletters, Nurgle/Slaanesh/Khorne herald or a greater daemon to fire the battery at BS5, giving essentially 4 guaranteed lascannon hits on any nasty flyers.


Promethium Relay Pipes - Gives you a cover save like an Aegis, but summon some flamers near it and suddenly they have Torrent. The possibility of taking hits from the pipes is very low (requires a 6 to save, then a 1, then does D6 hits), and with Cursed Earth + Daemon Save you won't ever be taking the cover save anyway.


For allies: I'd advise looking at C:CSM Daemon Princes with spell familiars. They get to re-roll failed psychic tests, are Daemons so they get all those good bonuses, are Battle brothers, and bring in some moderately cheap and/or durable troops. Re-rolling psychic tests statistically means they can use 3 less dice to cast a WC3 spell with the same probability of success and lesser chance of perils. At 310pts fully kitted out they might seem expensive, but if he casts 2 malefic powers per turn he's *saving* you 6 power dice - ie, he essentially generates 9 WC.

 ansacs wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
You are making a lot of assumptions right now and while I am happy to read your opinions, please consider we haven't even gotten to Army Lists, the Pyschic Phase, or Shooting.

I honestly feel like you just posted without reading a single thing I wrote.

Yeah, I posted this in the wrong thread...sorry.

I stand by the length of the phase being broken.

The alpha strike ability of the daemon factory is abysmal though. I did read your entire OP. The units which can actually matter the turn they summon all have limited range, have to pass over the target, or have to pump a large number of WC into their witchfires to have meaningful output. Most gunlines or tough shooty armies (leman russ, riptide, waveserpent spam). Will essentially experience 1-3 turns of being unmolested depending on your initial factory "workers". Your suggestion for chariots definitely would help lessen this gap but it also depends on getting some of the right rolls to go your way. If you 5 dice summonings which is most efficient you may very well not get any of your chariot herald summoning off but all your pink horrors...which leaves the opponent lots of breathing room.

I do like you suggestion to use chariots though.

I also totally agree with you need to tailor the units to bring to the table to the opponent rather than just summoning pink horrors to max WC.

I would value screamers and flamers a bit higher than you. The reason for this is that they can contribute right from turn they are summoned with their ranged attacks and pass over abilities. Even if you summon 40 models if you leave the opponent entirely unmolested without even the ability to assault him for a turn there are a number of armies (Tau, IG, certain SM builds, etc.) which could remove your all 40 and a couple of your original units.

I also really like bloodcrushers as they are a serious threat to anything they can charge. With the range of summoning this means they could be charging anything within 30" very reliably. The same thing with plaguedrones however you loose damage in some categories for resiliency and a bit better threat range.

I was kind of thinking GUO, daemonettes, and blood letters would be nice roadblocks for fast assault armies. If an opponent can close fast enough and get some good multi assaults in they could wipe out your army much faster than you could summon. To this effect you really need to have accurate DS up and position your first turn conjurations to stop multi charges into your juicy summoning units.

The two units I am still not sure what the optimal counter conjuration for is imperial knights and GMC. For the knights I would say daemonettes, plague drones, and screamers. For GMC I would say daemonettes seem like your best bet or just make it eat through 2-3 summoned units a turn for the game. It seems like a transcendent C'Tan could be a real pain for a daemon factory.

Daemonettes are not good for knights, but there are some options. Shooting them is actually not bad. I'll get into it later but if facing a Knight heavy army you want to try and fish for Misfortune. As Flickering fire will now be ST5 + Rending.

Plaguebearers are actually really good as well, glancing on 6s. another good option is fising specifically for misfortune. Another option after that is deep striking behind it for rear armour shots with Flickering fire. So there are some counters to a Knight that are pretty easy, but it's still a huge trouble. It's not that great at being tarpitted with Daemons as they'll lose combat then take a instability check. I don't know what GMC stands for.

Screamers with a 2+ reroll will slowly eat a knight. Any unit with invisibility can tarpit one.

Bloodcrushers are a very under rated unit when it comes to summoning. If an opponent brought lots of s8 they can stay home, but if an opponent like serpent spam, tau mp spam, sm bike grav gun spam is lacking s8 then 9 wounds of cav becomes pretty brutal.

I'll include that in the Combos section and when we get to dealing with Specific unit Tactics.

Yesterday confirmed that Daemon Factory beats Taudar.

Bloodthirsters Why would you take this?

This makes me a sad puppy. Are they that bad these days?

 schadenfreude wrote:
Screamers with a 2+ reroll will slowly eat a knight. Any unit with invisibility can tarpit one.

Stomp attacks ignore invisibility, don't they?

I'm rather skeptical of the usefulness of summoned Heralds of Tzeentch. They just seem to be so very easy to kill. Their only hope of survival seems to be line-of-sight blocking terrain. A Herald of Nurgle might only give you half the Warp Charges, but it's a lot more effort to kill. HoTs only seem worth it if you are willing to hold back and stay hidden, which strikes me as an unwise tactic; you need to be summoning units on objectives and behind enemy lines.

Heralds of Nurgle also seem to be more efficient than summoned pink horrors as WC generators - you can get three level 1 psykers for a similar cost to one level one brotherhood and I'd say six wounds at T 5, with shrouded, in three different units is more survivable than a single unit of 10 wounds with T 3. I know it's a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison to compare something that needs one instance of summoning to one that needs three sacrifices, but there's a big enough difference that I think it's worth mentioning.

Daemons of Tzeentch are probably the best option for getting an initial block of casters to start the summoning, but I'd probably avoid summoning them under most circumstances.

One big problem for plaguebearers is that they have to take one turn of shooting while bunched up. There are a lot of things which are very good at killing models who rely on cover saves while they are bunched up. Given that and the fact that nurgle heralds are actually capable of surviving without a unit to hide in, I'm inclined to rate them a bit lower than I would have initially.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Screamers with a 2+ reroll will slowly eat a knight. Any unit with invisibility can tarpit one.

Bloodcrushers are a very under rated unit when it comes to summoning. If an opponent brought lots of s8 they can stay home, but if an opponent like serpent spam, tau mp spam, sm bike grav gun spam is lacking s8 then 9 wounds of cav becomes pretty brutal.

cant a knight just remove whole units from the game with it's stomp?

Kyutaru wrote:
Yesterday confirmed that Daemon Factory beats Taudar.

Taudar isn't really a thing anymore now that they're not battle brothers.

Yeah i pointed out that Heralds of Nurgle are really good survivers.

Keeping the Heralds safe from single shooting attacks is not difficult really. Out of LOS or just run them away.

If people want to shoot them they can it doesn't give you a negative warp charge.

The whole goal is to maintain 30 to 40 warp charge

 Exergy wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Screamers with a 2+ reroll will slowly eat a knight. Any unit with invisibility can tarpit one.

Bloodcrushers are a very under rated unit when it comes to summoning. If an opponent brought lots of s8 they can stay home, but if an opponent like serpent spam, tau mp spam, sm bike grav gun spam is lacking s8 then 9 wounds of cav becomes pretty brutal.

cant a knight just remove whole units from the game with it's stomp?

If it's not a removed from play hit it's not going to do anything. Meanwhile the screamers glance on 8+ on 2d6. It's probably going to be a long fight.

 rabidguineapig wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:
Yesterday confirmed that Daemon Factory beats Taudar.

Taudar isn't really a thing anymore now that they're not battle brothers.

Anyone can be battle brothers when you allow them to be. We wanted to see Taudar vs Daemon Factory so we ignored the new allies chart.

Hollismason wrote:
Keeping the Heralds safe from single shooting attacks is not difficult really. Out of LOS or just run them away.

Which means they will probably never have any purpose other than generating warp charges. It also assumes that there is somewhere that is totally out of LOS.

Hollismason wrote:
If people want to shoot them they can it doesn't give you a negative warp charge.

If you're wasting warp charges (and other resources) on summoning units which don't survive to generate more warp charges, you effectively are losing warp charges.

I'm a bit dubious about the benefits of hiding daemons in bastions too. It only takes a couple of hammerheads, vanquishers or similar anti-tank options to turn a bastion from a safe haven into a death trap.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Screamers with a 2+ reroll will slowly eat a knight. Any unit with invisibility can tarpit one.

Bloodcrushers are a very under rated unit when it comes to summoning. If an opponent brought lots of s8 they can stay home, but if an opponent like serpent spam, tau mp spam, sm bike grav gun spam is lacking s8 then 9 wounds of cav becomes pretty brutal.

cant a knight just remove whole units from the game with it's stomp?

If it's not a removed from play hit it's not going to do anything. Meanwhile the screamers glance on 8+ on 2d6. It's probably going to be a long fight.

yes I was referring to the rule knights have where they simply remove units from the game.
Sure it isn't super reliable, but if the fight goes on a few combats it will happen.

Kyutaru wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:
Yesterday confirmed that Daemon Factory beats Taudar.

Taudar isn't really a thing anymore now that they're not battle brothers.

Anyone can be battle brothers when you allow them to be. We wanted to see Taudar vs Daemon Factory so we ignored the new allies chart.

Fair enough, definitely a good way to prove how they crazy they are.

Daemons are what could be called tier 0 now.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Keeping the Heralds safe from single shooting attacks is not difficult really. Out of LOS or just run them away.

Which means they will probably never have any purpose other than generating warp charges. It also assumes that there is somewhere that is totally out of LOS.

Hollismason wrote:
If people want to shoot them they can it doesn't give you a negative warp charge.

If you're wasting warp charges (and other resources) on summoning units which don't survive to generate more warp charges, you effectively are losing warp charges.

I'm a bit dubious about the benefits of hiding daemons in bastions too. It only takes a couple of hammerheads, vanquishers or similar anti-tank options to turn a bastion from a safe haven into a death trap.

Absolutely, which is why it's important to look at the other Heralds like Nurgle that add warp charge and are survivable.

There are some other options though. Also, don't forget that those Psykers can cast powers when they are summoned it just cannot be Conjurations, so you could summon a Level 2 Herald, then roll on Divination and take Prescience etc.. or my favorite summon them and then pick Tzeentch, or summon a Herald of Nurgle and pick nurgle to get some good shooting attacks right then and there.

Lots of options, people just think : Oh I have this guy that does nothing.

It's why Sacrifice is such a good spell to lead with as I explained within the psychic phase spell order. It adds immediate utility.

There are some other options that the army has and one that I don't think people have considered at all but I have to write that up tonight i don't have time today, but lets just say you can Deep Strike in with a unit and then immediately summon as well as bring in another unit with a Icon.

If you are absolutely worried about getting Alpha Striked Alpha Strike back. It's actually really awesome.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Daemons are what could be called tier 0 now.

Until people get used to them and start planning accordingly.

Whirlwinds and Battlecannons go a long towards putting the hurt on a demon Factory, it's weak against flyers, etc...

Stilll looks like it will be fun to play, but I think the cries of the sky falling are a bit premature

It's a little harder than people think because you have a lot of things to take into consideration.

It's not just "Summon Daemons, put on shades, lean back, win".

It's specifically weak against

Drop Pod Assault
Jetbike / Fast Assault armies
Mass Barrage or Ordance fire
Numerous Monstrous creatures like Riptides.

I think it's going to take a lot of skill to play them well, but in the hands of a good player, they might prove unbeatable.

I'm kind of hoping that they also attract a huge number of low-skill TFG players to slap down masses of money and then still fail to win games.

Wow, reviewing the Eldar codex for the allies section and holy crap are they completely broken Daemon Summoners. It's not even a close contest, I'll have to write up a more in depth review once I review some Eldar armies and look through the book but so far I see 10 Warlocks (Treat as 1 LVL2) that has a Jetbike and can cast conceal then roll on the Daemon Chart. 1000 points of Daemons and 1000 points of Eldar is broken.

Hollismason wrote:
Wow, reviewing the Eldar codex for the allies section and holy crap are they completely broken Daemon Summoners. It's not even a close contest, I'll have to write up a more in depth review once I review some Eldar armies and look through the book but so far I see 10 Warlocks (Treat as 1 LVL2) that has a Jetbike and can cast conceal then roll on the Daemon Chart. 1000 points of Daemons and 1000 points of Eldar is broken.

This made me think about DE with a WWP as allies to summoning list. I haven't gotten a look at a 7th ed. book yet, but I did see the DE FAQ.,Would you be able to drop a WWP then sit back and summon demons through it?

I am not familiar with the DE army, but they compliment Daemons well as an ally because they are super fast and have cheap shooting.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Daemons are what could be called tier 0 now.

Until people get used to them and start planning accordingly.

Whirlwinds and Battlecannons go a long towards putting the hurt on a demon Factory, it's weak against flyers, etc...

Stilll looks like it will be fun to play, but I think the cries of the sky falling are a bit premature

Thats very true. You could always ally Wolves and then just put a couple of RPs in a DP or 2 and you just drop them into the little psychic bubble and deliver the ultimate screw you to your opponent.

I think I understand what you are talking about but am unsure would you mind elaborating?

Do you mean Rune Priest and Drop Pod, then Drop Podding near Daemons for.... I assume that special ability?

Hollismason wrote:
I think I understand what you are talking about but am unsure would you mind elaborating?

Do you mean Rune Priest and Drop Pod, then Drop Podding near Daemons for.... I assume that special ability?

Rune Priest still posses the absolute most powerful psychic defense around. By Drop Podding them in on your first turn you effectively negate many of their successful powers and can bring a Daemon factory to a grinding halt and its guaranteed to work for at least one turn until they are able to kill off the Rune Priest, which may be very difficult. Adding +1 to DTW rolls and bringing extra WC dice is very helpful. Can bring a turn of ~4 Summoning down to ~2. Not to mention you get whatever offense comes in the Pod which should be aimed at reducing their WC dice pool.

One thing I've been thinking about is taking another look at the other Change psychic powers. With Flickering fire getting a bit of a nerf, if I had the ability to take a few extra powers, such as with spawned horrors, The bolt of change is looking awfully nice actually. Str d6+4, AP2 beam, and now beams don't lose any power for hitting multiple units, and it has a pretty nice 24'' range. Assuming you can line up a good shot, this skill can REALLY ruin someone's day.

 Zagman wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I think I understand what you are talking about but am unsure would you mind elaborating?

Do you mean Rune Priest and Drop Pod, then Drop Podding near Daemons for.... I assume that special ability?

Rune Priest still posses the absolute most powerful psychic defense around. By Drop Podding them in on your first turn you effectively negate many of their successful powers and can bring a Daemon factory to a grinding halt and its guaranteed to work for at least one turn until they are able to kill off the Rune Priest, which may be very difficult. Adding +1 to DTW rolls and bringing extra WC dice is very helpful. Can bring a turn of ~4 Summoning down to ~2. Not to mention you get whatever offense comes in the Pod which should be aimed at reducing their WC dice pool.

Except that doesn't work that way after the FAQ. Rune Weapons are simply Force Weapons that add +1 to Deny the Witch, but only if the Rune Priest is targeted. The 24" 4+ global Deny is gone.

I like your catchy title.

I do feel that the increase in demons and sumoning is gonna make a lotta people think about grey knight or astra mil. allies. Even if they weren't before.

RedWolf wrote:
... and now beams don't lose any power for hitting multiple units

Nice, I hadn't noticed that yet.

RedWolf wrote:
One thing I've been thinking about is taking another look at the other Change psychic powers. With Flickering fire getting a bit of a nerf, if I had the ability to take a few extra powers, such as with spawned horrors, The bolt of change is looking awfully nice actually. Str d6+4, AP2 beam, and now beams don't lose any power for hitting multiple units, and it has a pretty nice 24'' range. Assuming you can line up a good shot, this skill can REALLY ruin someone's day.

Yes I should add that to the Psychic Section and mention that specific rule. It works well for Deepstriking Heralds and deepstriking units in General.

I'll make mention of it specifically when I get to the Combos and Tactics section.

Worthy of an Exalt for thread title alone. For making the Tzeentchian clown car army actually interesting? I regret I have but one Exalt to give for my country.

Now I'm still pretty anxious about how my beloved Sororitas would fare without serious allies....

Hollismason wrote:
I think I understand what you are talking about but am unsure would you mind elaborating?

Do you mean Rune Priest and Drop Pod, then Drop Podding near Daemons for.... I assume that special ability?

Something like that. It is situational, but if you take 3 Drop pods in an allied detachment, this means that 2 come in on turn 1. You drop in your 2 RP pods and you put them where you need to nullify psychic powers. Then you have JOTWW that will also help. I like this because you can put a RP with one five man team of GH and then I take eight LF in a different pod for support. The DPs for the RPs and GHs are also scoring so if you dont need to drop in that much fire power, you could have a personal preference as to put two RPs in one pod. then the other one is scoring with OS and they need to deal with that too.

IMO this is also why DP spam lists are so much more viable. I feel like the two best are Salamanders and SW, but its great with six or seven (or as many as you can with unbound!!) pods because you fill them with Tac marines and then you drop them onto objectives, making you opponent waste time killing off drop pods, while taking volleys of fire form Marines. If you want to make it even more fun or better, add a flyer or two so your opponent has to deal with them too.

You cant JOTWW anything because you cant use the power anymore.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I think I understand what you are talking about but am unsure would you mind elaborating?

Do you mean Rune Priest and Drop Pod, then Drop Podding near Daemons for.... I assume that special ability?

Something like that. It is situational, but if you take 3 Drop pods in an allied detachment, this means that 2 come in on turn 1. You drop in your 2 RP pods and you put them where you need to nullify psychic powers. Then you have JOTWW that will also help. I like this because you can put a RP with one five man team of GH and then I take eight LF in a different pod for support. The DPs for the RPs and GHs are also scoring so if you dont need to drop in that much fire power, you could have a personal preference as to put two RPs in one pod. then the other one is scoring with OS and they need to deal with that too.

IMO this is also why DP spam lists are so much more viable. I feel like the two best are Salamanders and SW, but its great with six or seven (or as many as you can with unbound!!) pods because you fill them with Tac marines and then you drop them onto objectives, making you opponent waste time killing off drop pods, while taking volleys of fire form Marines. If you want to make it even more fun or better, add a flyer or two so your opponent has to deal with them too.

The runic staff doesn't work like that they faqed it (incorrectly I might add) , but yea it's not army wide dispel. You no longer get JOTW.

Drop podding with two guys into a deployment isn't smart. Dropping 40 guys is. There's some easy counters to DP spam I'll get to that in Tactics or How to Deal with things that kill you.

If you just have two drop pods all the Daemon Player has to do is just move and spread out. They can move 6 , Cast , then Run. It's a pretty fast army actually even the ground troops. They'll straight up murder those two Rune Priest in one round of Psychic Shooting . It can just burn through all of your dispel dice. Even if you have 10 it's going to have 30. The best would be like 2 Rune Priest plus some Grey Hunters or a Dreadnought possibly. Don't know not familiar enough with SW. Assuming they can get like Drop podding Flamers.

Plus the best way to play the army is with allies so you'll probably not be dropping in on Demons but a unit of Plaguemarines with Meltaguns in a Rhino or a squad of Tzeentch guys with AP3 guns or Sonic blasters. It's not smart to take a all Daemon all the time list.

Plus you know Soul Grnders.

So I thought'd I'd update this I have not completely finished with this but I am almost close. One of the big things I've come to the conclusion of after reading battlereports as well as paying attention to games I'm playing is that ultimately you really have to bring less horrors and more Daemon Princes at a lower level.

You lose Warp Charge but maximizing how many you have and not taking wings and going straight Telepathy is the way to go at this point.

Hollismason wrote:
So I thought'd I'd update this I have not completely finished with this but I am almost close. One of the big things I've come to the conclusion of after reading battlereports as well as paying attention to games I'm playing is that ultimately you really have to bring less horrors and more Daemon Princes at a lower level.

You lose Warp Charge but maximizing how many you have and not taking wings and going straight Telepathy is the way to go at this point.

Honestly, the Daemon Factory seems to be a clown army to just "wait and see" rather than be tactical on any level other than endless horde.

What I mean by this is, since Sorcerers and CSM: Daemon Princes with Familiars are the best casters in the game now and because they aren't going to generate as much as Brotherhoods of Sorcerers/Horrors/etc, they have the potential of making it happen when they want it too with what little dice they have in the first place. So for Chaos, you're summoning what you need when you need it at that moment and no more/no less.

Ex: I have an armored column and infantry scooting behind them. We round turn 2 and it's time for me to start getting into assaults but I realize there is a problem: Maybe I've lost too much infantry as it is and Tau overwatch is going to eat all of my charges alive. Then what do you do? Well thankfully you have a summoner in your ranks who just put Bloodletters (w/e) behind the enemy squad you want to overwatch. They charge in, get chewed up, maybe make it and cause some collateral damage, but the troops you've paid for are free to make their charge unhinged.

THIS, I believe, is the true power of the summon. Not the Daemon Factory, but that unfortunate lynch-pin moment that you couldn't fail and needed help to make happen. THAT is what Chaos Summoning, to me, is about. Filling holes in the army you brought to the table at a moments notice.

Yes, I know I wrote about it extensively in this thread.



It's actually when you go "Endless Horde" that it seems to fail instead of " Summon Exactly what serves you best at that moment". Like seriously. It takes a bit more than "sit there and summon".A lot of people are playing and are finding that really going like Maximized Warp charge does nothing. You have to just Maintain that's all. Just Maintain a 30 Warp Charge Level.It's actually a really complicated army to paly because you have a ton to keep track of and have to know what units are good at killing what.

So yeah it's more than just " Summon Horde". That works but against a hard list, it sucks, also you have to protect yourself versus Alpha Strike so taking a ton of T3 models to boost to Warp Charge 3 isn't that great a idea.

It's been two weeks so still a lot of games to play, but your right to a degree about the "lynchpin". Right now though a mix of Telepathy for Psychic Scream and Invisibility and Shrouding plus Summon Daemons and Flickering fire seems to be where it's at.

A Sample list I played the other day:

KoS : 1 Lesser , 1 Greater, Level 2
4 Heralds
3 Heralds of Tzeentch w/ Level 3 , 1 w/ Disc
1 Herald of Slaanesh w/ Chariot Level 2

Troops
3 Pink Horrors @ 17 Model Squads

Heavy Support
Daemon Prince, Greater, Level 3 , Slaanesh
Daemon Prince, Greater, Level 3 Slaanesh

Works waaaay better than taking 3 more 17 model Tzeentch Horror Squads. Like taking more than 50 Pink horrors really really cuts your throat.

After having read some more on the relevant topics, I wanted to elaborate on my statement concerning DE and WWPs:

I play Iyanden w/ DE allies and have for some time now. I've always taken a WWP for flavor. My list in 6th evolved into Farseer w/ support weapons in backfield, Spiritseer(s) with Wraithaxes and Archon w/ WWP deployed as forward as possible, Spiritseer(s) w/ D-scythes in WS. WK as warlord. A large squad of warriors and a squad of DE Harlequins out of the WWP.

Now, with changes to WWP and BB transports, as well as the addition of Daemonology, I'm seeing a whole string of new combos with very little alteration to the list. If I'm not mistaken, and someone please correct me if I am, then conjured demons may arrive via the WWP rather than DSing. This, to my mind, does away with any need to expose the units doing the actual summoning. In addition it allows the bloodthirster to arrive in gliding mode, which is good bc I can't imagine any eldar would feel comfortable summoning a keeper of secrets.

A combo I had considered is going full santic with the farseer and shooting for gate of infinity. Then DS with an archon attached to a tough squad, like wraithaxes, right up to some leafblower list, or even behind their lines, and drop the WWP. Next round you start summoning daemons through it.

The eldar seem to have lost a lot in their psychic supremacy, however, their artifacts - namely Spirit Stones, Runes of Witnessing, and Ghosthelms, have all significantly improved. Obviously, my current list isn't as strong at summoning as it could be, going full daemon (my first iteration only has 14 WC) but, it's also not at all locked in to summoning and has proven effective before 7th ever dropped. I'm sure some of the extras could be dropped to add more WC as necessary to bring this up to factory status.

Any thoughts on the viability of incorporating WWPs into a summoning style list?

Honestly, I am not overtly familiar with Dark Eldar enough, and now that I actually am reading the Webway portal thing, I think you broke something.

I'll have to ask in YMDC , because it allows movement in a phase that normally doesn't allow movement.

I know the following does work though you could keep a Daemon Summoning unit in Reserve move on through the Webway and then Summon. I think Dark Eldar would be a good match for Daemons just because one has no shooting and one has a lot of cheap shooting.

Yeah, this WWP thing is weird. I always though it was like a one time thing, honestly never encountered it. If it works the way I think it does you may have found something that's really really good.

I will say you'll be one phase behind , as you have to kick it off in the shooting phase it seems like.

Fluffwise, I'm dubious about Eldar of any kind letting daemons anywhere NEAR their precious webway -- whose whole point is to avoid the warp.

I believe the rules for summoning placement would override the webway portal unless the webway is within range.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Fluffwise, I'm dubious about Eldar of any kind letting daemons anywhere NEAR their precious webway -- whose whole point is to avoid the warp.

My take on it from a fluff perspective is that the archon has a portal which opens up to a closed off section of the webway that was overrun by daemons. The eldar seers then provide the psychic energy to allow the daemons passage, and voila!

As for this tactic being a turn behind, I don't think it is, bc with a relatively low WC, you're going to want to summon Tzeentch daemons first round and hide them behind cover in your backfield anyways. If you need to put pressure on the enemy right away, the rest of the army has both the mobility and firepower to make that a non-issue

As for the range issue, I had considered that, but I really feel that RAW leans toward this tactic working; I suppose that's a discussion for YMDC, tho.

The summoning Daemons thing is COMPLETELY broken. Grey Knights can summon daemons? Yeah, only if they're going to fight those same daemons they're summoning. XD

Come on games workshop. How can you let Eldar and D'Eldar team up, but then CSM can't team with IG/AM?

Just another example of "GW hates Chaos." lol

That brings me to another point though; Do you have to be Battle Brothers with Daemons for them to be effective? What I mean by this is, if Grey Knights summon Daemons and their Alliance is "Come the Apocalyspe," do Grey Knights and the summoned Daemons still act like Come the Apocalypse or, for all intents and purposes, do they get to be good buds sharing a bear with Draigo? And no, that wasn't a typo. I meant bear. >>

 Leth wrote:
I believe the rules for summoning placement would override the webway portal unless the webway is within range.

You can definitely do it as the summoning states that it follows all rules for reserve and really their coming into reserve from Deep Strike but the spells range isn't a issue. That's a restriction on the spell.

That's really a question for YMDC.

The way I think it works, you summon instead of placing they move out from the webway portal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
The summoning Daemons thing is COMPLETELY broken. Grey Knights can summon daemons? Yeah, only if they're going to fight those same daemons they're summoning. XD

Come on games workshop. How can you let Eldar and D'Eldar team up, but then CSM can't team with IG/AM?

Just another example of "GW hates Chaos." lol

That brings me to another point though; Do you have to be Battle Brothers with Daemons for them to be effective? What I mean by this is, if Grey Knights summon Daemons and their Alliance is "Come the Apocalyspe," do Grey Knights and the summoned Daemons still act like Come the Apocalypse or, for all intents and purposes, do they get to be good buds sharing a bear with Draigo? And no, that wasn't a typo. I meant bear. >>

It's not really that broken, other races get pretty messed up by summoning Daemons due to perils. Eldar have Ghosthelms that prevent the wound.

You don't follow rules for Come the Apocalypse but you would follow the rules for the Desperate Allies.

Grey Knights actually can't summon daemons

I'm annoyed that they re-worded the DP's psycic powers. Before the FAQ you could have khornate psykers due to sloppy wording confusing mark of khorne and daemon of khorne.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
The summoning Daemons thing is COMPLETELY broken. Grey Knights can summon daemons? Yeah, only if they're going to fight those same daemons they're summoning. XD

Come on games workshop. How can you let Eldar and D'Eldar team up, but then CSM can't team with IG/AM?

Just another example of "GW hates Chaos." lol

That brings me to another point though; Do you have to be Battle Brothers with Daemons for them to be effective? What I mean by this is, if Grey Knights summon Daemons and their Alliance is "Come the Apocalyspe," do Grey Knights and the summoned Daemons still act like Come the Apocalypse or, for all intents and purposes, do they get to be good buds sharing a bear with Draigo? And no, that wasn't a typo. I meant bear. >>

Grey Knights cannot summon Daemons. They are prohibited from taking Malefic Daemonology powers, just as Daemon psykers are prohibited from taking Sanctic powers.

They can however ally with Daemons who in turn can summon Daemons.

( I reallly don't like Come the Apocalypse being able to ally and wish they made clear rules for Traitor Guard but whatev.)

Hollismason wrote:

It's not really that broken, other races get pretty messed up by summoning Daemons due to perils. Eldar have Ghosthelms that prevent the wound.

You don't follow rules for Come the Apocalypse but you would follow the rules for the Desperate Allies.

I suppose Perils (except for a roll of 6 - SUPER-WARP-CHARGED FTW!) is the balance that makes these non-Chaos people get eaten, but still... unless these guys have the Grimmoire of True Names or something, these daemons would just laugh at them as soon as they breached real space because that's all a daemon cares about.

Take a look at what happened to Ahriman when he tried to find out where Amon was in Ahriman:Exile. He touched the Daemon and got what he wanted but then the daemon turned around and said "Well that was fun and I'm glad you saw what you needed, but too bad because I'm going to kill you now and everyone with you while I'm at it because that's what I want."

BTW, where are the rules for the Webway Portal?

PS: Daemons are dicks.

It's in the Dark Eldar book, yes they can be.

I'm loving the opportunity to summon daemonettes for my Emperor's Children army. Allows me to deal with certain units like wraith knights much better than I could before.

While I agree, this isn't the sort of thing an Eldar farseer just goes and does on a whim, I think there is a precedent in the lore for this sort of thing. I don't have my eldar book on hand, but I seem to recall them diverting orc waaaghs and tyranid hive fleets onto unsuspecting monkeigh systems, numerous times.

When one of their quotes is something to the effect of 1 eldar life is worth a million monkeigh, can you honestly say that they wouldn't feel justified in opening a portal to a daemonic realm if they thought it would, say, save a craftworld? Throw some harlequins in there, the custodians of the black library, with all the daemonic know-how at their fingertips, and I don't think this is a stretch at all.

There are to my knowledge "Chaos Eldar".

Unless they changed that. So you could do a really cool what if or themed Slaanesh, Eldar army.

 Spellbound wrote:
I'm loving the opportunity to summon daemonettes for my Emperor's Children army. Allows me to deal with certain units like wraith knights much better than I could before.

You should try out using Sacrifice to summon a Herald of Slaanesh on a Chariot. It's pretty nice, or a Fiend of Slaanesh.

Hollismason wrote: Remember though once you pick a Sorcerer to cast it has to go through its spells fully.

Where are you getting this from? The rulebook says:

Rulebook wrote: If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows. Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase.
...
To manifest a psychic power, you will first need to select one of your Psyker units. It does not matter if the selected unit is Falling Back or has Gone to Ground. Then, select a psychic power known to the selected unit that the unit has not already attempted to manifest in this Psychic phase.

Nothing about completely casting all their spells - in fact it does say that you can move back and forth if you wish.

Good catch, that was suppose to be about Possession. I need to reword it. Thanks.

Hollismason wrote:
I don't think people are going to like my thoughts on Fateweaver.

He is quite expensive, so you are right there.

I've only played one game in 7th so far and it became (unintentionally) a demon factory. I wanted at least 1 psyker with cursed earth (and apparently i could only get one on the 12th roll).
I did use Fateweaver because i think both of his reroll abilities (1 dice and warlord trait) offsets quite alot of bad luck. I used him more as a gun platform or just charge generator (getting 8 out of him is decent).
I did, however, feel like Flickering Fire was not as good as in 6th. Getting a 3 charge powers off required 7 dices to be moderately successful (i think i failed 2 in the game). The beam power (bolt of change?) was pretty great though.

I played against a armored up BT list (2 dreads in droppods, LRC, Whirlwind, Predator and a Rhino) and i had some problems actually hurting any of the tanks. Only managed to drop the two dreads, LRC and the rhino. Whirlwind really hurt me as well (a squadron of the 4x Barrage IG tanks, wyverns?, is gonna be really dangerous).
I had some problems summoning units since i didnt have enough models (specially heralds) and my only spare greater demon was a GUO. But i did get to spawn him twice (charged a dread, killed it, then got charged by a squad of TH/SS termies and died) which was great fun.

Jeffrachov wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I don't think people are going to like my thoughts on Fateweaver.

He is quite expensive, so you are right there.

I've only played one game in 7th so far and it became (unintentionally) a demon factory. I wanted at least 1 psyker with cursed earth (and apparently i could only get one on the 12th roll).
I did use Fateweaver because i think both of his reroll abilities (1 dice and warlord trait) offsets quite alot of bad luck. I used him more as a gun platform or just charge generator (getting 8 out of him is decent).
I did, however, feel like Flickering Fire was not as good as in 6th. Getting a 3 charge powers off required 7 dices to be moderately successful (i think i failed 2 in the game). The beam power (bolt of change?) was pretty great though.

I played against a armored up BT list (2 dreads in droppods, LRC, Whirlwind, Predator and a Rhino) and i had some problems actually hurting any of the tanks. Only managed to drop the two dreads, LRC and the rhino. Whirlwind really hurt me as well (a squadron of the 4x Barrage IG tanks, wyverns?, is gonna be really dangerous).
I had some problems summoning units since i didnt have enough models (specially heralds) and my only spare greater demon was a GUO. But i did get to spawn him twice (charged a dread, killed it, then got charged by a squad of TH/SS termies and died) which was great fun.

You should reread the rules for Fateweaver, specifically the part about how many Warp Charges he generates.

Yeah , he unfortunately only provides 4 Warp Charge, it's stated outright in his profile. I'm hoping that he'll be given a choice of Malefic if a FAQ comes out other than the initial one.

I don't dislike him, but now with being able to reroll Warlord traits, you do have a better chance at getting the Warp Storm one for your normal HQ which isn't terrible.

 Zagman wrote:


You should reread the rules for Fateweaver, specifically the part about how many Warp Charges he generates.

Ah, i thought that was wierd. My opponent pointed it out and i just went with it as i was rolling for everything so wanted to speed it up.

Even with a reroll i figure i will pretty much never get the right Warlord trait. Before i played demons i played DA and when i played with a generic warlord i ended up with the same trait 9/10 times (the Hunt i think its called). Lets just say i don't trust my luck at all and Fateweaver is good at balancing that out. (should note that before i started using Fateweaver about 40% of my storm rolls ended up with a negative effect) Using FMC's in melee is such a hassle now anyway and he works well as a gun platform.

Kairos or Belakor is unfortunately a auto take if you are playing a tournament, but you can get away without them in a friendly or competitive friendly game or "hard" list game.

Someone was asking me about what I think a long term tournament would look like and it'd probably be something like

Kairos
4 Heralds, 1 Slaanesh , 3 Tzeentch, Grimoire, Portaglyph

Troops
4 to 5 12 man w/ Musicians

Fast Attack
Seekers w/ icon
or
Small to Medium Squad of Screamers
H. Support
Daemon Prince w/ Wings , Flying Summoner
or
Burning Chariots
or
Soul Grinder

Aegis w/ Comm
or
Bastion w/ Comm

Or something crazy like a FMC/ Monstrous Creature Summoning Telepathy List
Kairos Fateweaver
KoS
Troops
Pink Horrors
H. Support
Daemon Prince w/ wings, slaanesh, pskyer x 3

Strategy aside. The title of this thread always makes me smile.

Has anyone been using a factory list regularly? How has it been?

 undertow wrote:
Has anyone been using a factory list regularly? How has it been?

I go up against one regularly. It's interesting. Takes a lot of interceptor fire. We have a bit of a house rule that nothing can be too nuts so all of them are mild and don't just take as many Pink Horrors as possible. Not as scary as many think, but still very strong. I dislike the monobuildness of it. So yeah.

I've been playing it fairly regularly, most everyone is waiting for BAO as well as other tournaments to see what the shake down is in the new meta. Also, it's not super conducive to tourney play as if you are not super fast with your psychic phase you can easily burn your time out. I'm not attending BAO but we've played some games, you have to keep your phase really close to the 15 min to 20 min mark each turn if you want to like not run out of time.

Everything dropped though from the 35 to 40 to like 24 to 28 just to be more effective.

Right now I am running a Straight up Daemon Bomb w/ Soul Grinders and Heralds of Tzeentch, and some other troops to present threats when they come in.

It's more " hope I don't go against a Salamander Drop Podlisty" , it really can lose super hard to Drop Pods.

Seerstar against it at least in my view get's shut down hard and dies pretty quickly because you can dedicate all of your dispel to stopping that one critical spell of invisibility and Fortune then they can't attempt to cast it again on that same unit.

Then summon or shoot them to death. The big problem with Seerstar isn't the Seerstar it's the stupid Waveserpents.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:

 undertow wrote:
Has anyone been using a factory list regularly? How has it been?

I go up against one regularly. It's interesting. Takes a lot of interceptor fire. We have a bit of a house rule that nothing can be too nuts so all of them are mild and don't just take as many Pink Horrors as possible. Not as scary as many think, but still very strong. I dislike the monobuildness of it. So yeah.

Assuming intercepting them is one of your house rules?.

I haven't played any Factory lists yet, I've mostly just adapted my standard flying circus build and tried to add some summoning in where possible. Screamers to grab objectives if I get Incursion, etc. I've been getting around the loss of scoring on Swooping FMCs by using them to summon units onto the objectives.

I've found that while I get fewer powers cast each turn, more of them go off, especially when using 2 charge Flickering Fire. My opponents don't generally try to deny those, especially if they know an Invisibility is still on the 'to cast' list.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:

 undertow wrote:
Has anyone been using a factory list regularly? How has it been?

I go up against one regularly. It's interesting. Takes a lot of interceptor fire. We have a bit of a house rule that nothing can be too nuts so all of them are mild and don't just take as many Pink Horrors as possible. Not as scary as many think, but still very strong. I dislike the monobuildness of it. So yeah.

You can't actually fire interceptor at Daemons that are summoned, they come in during the Psychic Phase and Interceptor only works during the movement phase.

Have a friend who runs Demons and pretty much makes a mockery of anyone he fights. His roommate runs DA and 'Nids and only the gribblies have given his demons much of a fight.

A mutual friend ran Orks and Eldar against his demons recently in two separate games, Eldar won by a pretty decent margin, but the Orks got rocked repeatedly.

Edit: I've played him once with my AM, he has a problem with my tanks generally, even Chimeras give him a little bit of trouble.

Yeah, Multiple AV12 and above give it trouble.

Blue Scribes are indeed fun, but are they worth it since they take the whole HQ slot like the Masque?

If you are just building a competitive but fun list and don't want to take a FMC in the HQ slot or Daemon Prince then yes. You still get 4 more Heralds.

Or if depending on how your game is structured and you are not doing the whole "1 FOC" thing and doing a Combined arms they're super worth it in that second detachment.

I was really hoping people would embrace the combined arms detachments but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Although BAO and others are letting you apparently ally with yourself.

nm

Something interesting came up at the GT I just attended, brought eldar for some weird daemon summoning craziness. In my 4th game my opponent came up with a few things that intrigued me.

Eldar (and 80% of the other races) are come the apoc alies with daemons this means that.....

A) Each turn they are within 6" of each other they have to roll for one eye open. This makes sense to me.

B) Sense come the apoc allies cant be deployed within 12" of each other, and according to him deepstrike counts as deployment (Page anyone) then Daemons can never be summened be eldar or anyone who is come the apoc with daemons. This im not so sure about, as its clearly not RAI but is it really RAW?

Not really, as it specifies under what conditions you mishap. Deploying too close via deep strike is not listed, so they are forced to deploy there but they dont suffer a deep strike mishap when they do.

I would personally play it as only during the deployment phase but it is middle ground area as there are no rules for what happens if they are forced to deploy within 12 inches via deep strike.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Something interesting came up at the GT I just attended, brought eldar for some weird daemon summoning craziness. In my 4th game my opponent came up with a few things that intrigued me.

Eldar (and 80% of the other races) are come the apoc alies with daemons this means that.....

A) Each turn they are within 6" of each other they have to roll for one eye open. This makes sense to me.

B) Sense come the apoc allies cant be deployed within 12" of each other, and according to him deepstrike counts as deployment (Page anyone) then Daemons can never be summened be eldar or anyone who is come the apoc with daemons. This im not so sure about, as its clearly not RAI but is it really RAW?

No it's only during normal deployment , they're actually arriving from reserves. It was argued into the literal ground in YMDC. It's not RAW or RAI. It's someone making a False Dichotomy argument.
Basically

Come the Apocalypse

Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle .

This only applies when you are deploying for battle. You're not deploying for battle when you deploy from reserves, you're actually arriving from reserves.

‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’

During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.

Another section explaining when you actually deploy for battle

Deployment: How the armies must deploy will be described here. Most missions also include a deployment map which accompanies the deployment instructions to describe how and where each of the armies deploys.

Another quote on when deployment is and how it works.

Deployment Zones

Once the armies are chosen, the areas where they can be set up, or rather deployed, must be decided.

Literally defines what deployed means

Preparing Reserves

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units , keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve.

Literally states that Reserves are not the same as normal deployment rules and does not mean it is deploying for battle and is in fact a seperate thing all together.

Conjured units are treated as arriving from reserve for all rules purposes. It's just treated as arriving from reserve deployed in this case literally means where they can set up.

Deploying for battle and deploying from reserves are two different things.

You would however suffer from the One Eyed Open Rules.

Hope that clears it up , I'd post page numbers but it's a EBOOK.