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Might also be worth talking about allies. An allied inquisitor with servo skulls both adds to WCs and helps stop fast scouts from tearing into you early. I hear they can get cheap psychic henchmen too.

Yes, I am going to talk about that. Thanks for reminding me.

Just a correction, belakor is warp charge 3 not 4. He can get a bonus d3 if your opponent fails a morale in thier turn.

Im thinking the real trick with summoning lists, is how not to get wiped out by massed artillery or drop pods.

I'm getting to that. Just finished the Unit selection.

Moving on to Fortifications then I'll do a write up for the Psychic Phase Spell order.

A Special Section for Broken Combos and then post some sample lists.

Almost done.

 Maddermax wrote:
Might also be worth talking about allies. An allied inquisitor with servo skulls both adds to WCs and helps stop fast scouts from tearing into you early. I hear they can get cheap psychic henchmen too.

Daemons w/ Inquisition, sounds legit =/

The Daemon army becomes more broke when you throw in Battle Brothered Chaos Space Marines. I'll make sure to include a section on Allies.

Mainly with Crimson Slaughter, as your warlord can be a Daemon, you can take Daemons as troops that have a 2+ Invulnerable, and there's a choice for a Daemon type in each FOC at that point.

Basically you can have one of the best Daemon Summoners in the game with Spell Familiar and just going all in with Malefic.

Chaos Sorcerer w/ 3 Levels (unmarked is important), Daemon thing from Crimson Slaughter a 4+ is about the same cost as a KoS.

Possessed near a Cursed Earth can with a good roll become a 2+ , 4+ Feel No Pain unit.

Good additions to the article all around, but extra points for the new thread title

If you're having Daemon problems I feel bad for you son I got 99 problems but the warp aint one

Thanks if anyone has any solution beyond Fortifications Bastion Hiding to protect against Alpha Strike Barrage decimating your Heralds, let me know.

I can't think of single thing other than hide in bastion cowering in fear until you can deepstrike or come out and start casting cursed earth and other buffs. Heralds of Slaanesh in Chariots can move reliably across the table 27 inches in a turn so that is some help to getting to things. I'll get into that in tactics.

The thing about daemon factories is that they are broken in that they take an hour per psychic phase, blegh The thing about daemon factories is that they are broken in that they take an hour per psychic phase,

Key facts about daemon factories;
-No alpha strike abilities; the daemon factory will devote the first turn it gets to summoning and buffing. This gives you at least 1 turn to hit the daemon factory with everything you have and absolutely no need to turtle to avoid first turn damage. The most you have to worry about is flamers and screamers which most armies will not be significantly threatened by.
-They are infantry based with some MCs. If the daemon factory conjures FMC then they cannot hurt you for another turn.
-Conjured units are not part of a battleforged army list and do NOT have objective secured.
+Customization; the daemons can select the units that will be most useful. To counter this you should bring TAC lists with answers to MCs without saves, infantry, chariots, 2+ cover saves, etc. You will have to understand what the units conjured do and prioritize killing the units that can actually harm you. ie if you play leman russ spam the melee threats that can charge you next turn and screamers pass overs are your big threats, kill them.
+Psychic phase "domination"; you will have trouble getting psychic powers off if you have 3 times less dice than the opponent. However keep in mind those ~3 deny the witch dice can stop cursed earth from going off and make the opponent loose a summons attempt.

People are looking at the daemon factory lists in a vacuum and so it looks like 3000+ pts versus 1500 pts. However how much would you give to remain unmolested for 2-3 turns? Daemon factory lists have no real alpha strike abilities. These lists will average +40 T3 Sv5/4+ models a turn. Some armies might find that challenging to tackle however most armies will find this entirely manageable to kill and should in fact be able to grind the opponent down over the course of the game. The biggest problem about discussing this is that the methods to tackle the daemon factory are totally different depending on army. A banner of devastation ravenwing army, a space marine scout army, and a necron transcendent C'Tan based army are going to have seriously different methods to win the game.

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but if I recall Warp Tether works with Sacrifice doesn't it? Granted, you have to pay a lot for the 'chance' to get it, but it's a thought.

 ansacs wrote:
The thing about daemon factories is that they are broken in that they take an hour per psychic phase, blegh The thing about daemon factories is that they are broken in that they take an hour per psychic phase,

Key facts about daemon factories;
-No alpha strike abilities; the daemon factory will devote the first turn it gets to summoning and buffing. This gives you at least 1 turn to hit the daemon factory with everything you have and absolutely no need to turtle to avoid first turn damage. The most you have to worry about is flamers and screamers which most armies will not be significantly threatened by.
-They are infantry based with some MCs. If the daemon factory conjures FMC then they cannot hurt you for another turn.
-Conjured units are not part of a battleforged army list and do NOT have objective secured.
+Customization; the daemons can select the units that will be most useful. To counter this you should bring TAC lists with answers to MCs without saves, infantry, chariots, 2+ cover saves, etc. You will have to understand what the units conjured do and prioritize killing the units that can actually harm you. ie if you play leman russ spam the melee threats that can charge you next turn and screamers pass overs are your big threats, kill them.
+Psychic phase "domination"; you will have trouble getting psychic powers off if you have 3 times less dice than the opponent. However keep in mind those ~3 deny the witch dice can stop cursed earth from going off and make the opponent loose a summons attempt.

People are looking at the daemon factory lists in a vacuum and so it looks like 3000+ pts versus 1500 pts. However how much would you give to remain unmolested for 2-3 turns? Daemon factory lists have no real alpha strike abilities. These lists will average +40 T3 Sv5/4+ models a turn. Some armies might find that challenging to tackle however most armies will find this entirely manageable to kill and should in fact be able to grind the opponent down over the course of the game. The biggest problem about discussing this is that the methods to tackle the daemon factory are totally different depending on army. A banner of devastation ravenwing army, a space marine scout army, and a necron transcendent C'Tan based army are going to have seriously different methods to win the game.

You are making a lot of assumptions right now and while I am happy to read your opinions, please consider we haven't even gotten to Army Lists, the Pyschic Phase, or Shooting.

I honestly feel like you just posted without reading a single thing I wrote.








Automatically Appended Next Post:

 l0k1 wrote:
I don't know if it's been mentioned, but if I recall Warp Tether works with Sacrifice doesn't it? Granted, you have to pay a lot for the 'chance' to get it, but it's a thought.

Honestly not sure waiting for some definitive argument out of YMDC before I add it. If it does I will but not sure.

this is awesome so far, love the new title!

Hollismason wrote:
You are making a lot of assumptions right now and while I am happy to read your opinions, please consider we haven't even gotten to Army Lists, the Pyschic Phase, or Shooting.

I honestly feel like you just posted without reading a single thing I wrote.

Yeah, I posted this in the wrong thread...sorry.

I stand by the length of the phase being broken.

The alpha strike ability of the daemon factory is abysmal though. I did read your entire OP. The units which can actually matter the turn they summon all have limited range, have to pass over the target, or have to pump a large number of WC into their witchfires to have meaningful output. Most gunlines or tough shooty armies (leman russ, riptide, waveserpent spam). Will essentially experience 1-3 turns of being unmolested depending on your initial factory "workers". Your suggestion for chariots definitely would help lessen this gap but it also depends on getting some of the right rolls to go your way. If you 5 dice summonings which is most efficient you may very well not get any of your chariot herald summoning off but all your pink horrors...which leaves the opponent lots of breathing room.

I do like you suggestion to use chariots though.

I also totally agree with you need to tailor the units to bring to the table to the opponent rather than just summoning pink horrors to max WC.

I would value screamers and flamers a bit higher than you. The reason for this is that they can contribute right from turn they are summoned with their ranged attacks and pass over abilities. Even if you summon 40 models if you leave the opponent entirely unmolested without even the ability to assault him for a turn there are a number of armies (Tau, IG, certain SM builds, etc.) which could remove your all 40 and a couple of your original units.

I also really like bloodcrushers as they are a serious threat to anything they can charge. With the range of summoning this means they could be charging anything within 30" very reliably. The same thing with plaguedrones however you loose damage in some categories for resiliency and a bit better threat range.

I was kind of thinking GUO, daemonettes, and blood letters would be nice roadblocks for fast assault armies. If an opponent can close fast enough and get some good multi assaults in they could wipe out your army much faster than you could summon. To this effect you really need to have accurate DS up and position your first turn conjurations to stop multi charges into your juicy summoning units.

The two units I am still not sure what the optimal counter conjuration for is imperial knights and GMC. For the knights I would say daemonettes, plague drones, and screamers. For GMC I would say daemonettes seem like your best bet or just make it eat through 2-3 summoned units a turn for the game. It seems like a transcendent C'Tan could be a real pain for a daemon factory.

I think that the factory works best on a smaller scale, with another force focussed on alpha strike (or as close as chaos can get). Run some spawn chaos lords and daemon princes up the centre, get the enemy tied up for a bit before you overwhelm with numbers.

Surviving artillery is a real challenge. Only thing that comes to mind is the skyshield, combed with cursed earth and shrouded then you have a good platform for summoners (albeit static).

Then if you use grey knight psyker mounted in paybacks as your battery, they are resilient and have good damage output. Deosn't make best use of Coteaz. Also an inquisitor with servo skulls can shut down scout.

And then .. why not take a knight?

One thing to note with the new rulebook is that Fortifications aren't in the book itself - you have to go to Stronghold Assault for even the Aegis line.
With that in mind, it will be hard for TO's to justify stopping you from taking other models in the book too.

Wall of Martyrs Imperial Bunker - Essentially a bastion without the heavy bolters.

Wall of Martyrs Vengeance weapon Battery -
For 75pts apiece you get 2 TL Skyfire/Interceptor lascannons on AV14 fortifications. They have a relatively large footprint so can provide good cover for other dudes to hide behind. Summon down some bloodletters, Nurgle/Slaanesh/Khorne herald or a greater daemon to fire the battery at BS5, giving essentially 4 guaranteed lascannon hits on any nasty flyers.


Promethium Relay Pipes - Gives you a cover save like an Aegis, but summon some flamers near it and suddenly they have Torrent. The possibility of taking hits from the pipes is very low (requires a 6 to save, then a 1, then does D6 hits), and with Cursed Earth + Daemon Save you won't ever be taking the cover save anyway.


For allies: I'd advise looking at C:CSM Daemon Princes with spell familiars. They get to re-roll failed psychic tests, are Daemons so they get all those good bonuses, are Battle brothers, and bring in some moderately cheap and/or durable troops. Re-rolling psychic tests statistically means they can use 3 less dice to cast a WC3 spell with the same probability of success and lesser chance of perils. At 310pts fully kitted out they might seem expensive, but if he casts 2 malefic powers per turn he's *saving* you 6 power dice - ie, he essentially generates 9 WC.

 ansacs wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
You are making a lot of assumptions right now and while I am happy to read your opinions, please consider we haven't even gotten to Army Lists, the Pyschic Phase, or Shooting.

I honestly feel like you just posted without reading a single thing I wrote.

Yeah, I posted this in the wrong thread...sorry.

I stand by the length of the phase being broken.

The alpha strike ability of the daemon factory is abysmal though. I did read your entire OP. The units which can actually matter the turn they summon all have limited range, have to pass over the target, or have to pump a large number of WC into their witchfires to have meaningful output. Most gunlines or tough shooty armies (leman russ, riptide, waveserpent spam). Will essentially experience 1-3 turns of being unmolested depending on your initial factory "workers". Your suggestion for chariots definitely would help lessen this gap but it also depends on getting some of the right rolls to go your way. If you 5 dice summonings which is most efficient you may very well not get any of your chariot herald summoning off but all your pink horrors...which leaves the opponent lots of breathing room.

I do like you suggestion to use chariots though.

I also totally agree with you need to tailor the units to bring to the table to the opponent rather than just summoning pink horrors to max WC.

I would value screamers and flamers a bit higher than you. The reason for this is that they can contribute right from turn they are summoned with their ranged attacks and pass over abilities. Even if you summon 40 models if you leave the opponent entirely unmolested without even the ability to assault him for a turn there are a number of armies (Tau, IG, certain SM builds, etc.) which could remove your all 40 and a couple of your original units.

I also really like bloodcrushers as they are a serious threat to anything they can charge. With the range of summoning this means they could be charging anything within 30" very reliably. The same thing with plaguedrones however you loose damage in some categories for resiliency and a bit better threat range.

I was kind of thinking GUO, daemonettes, and blood letters would be nice roadblocks for fast assault armies. If an opponent can close fast enough and get some good multi assaults in they could wipe out your army much faster than you could summon. To this effect you really need to have accurate DS up and position your first turn conjurations to stop multi charges into your juicy summoning units.

The two units I am still not sure what the optimal counter conjuration for is imperial knights and GMC. For the knights I would say daemonettes, plague drones, and screamers. For GMC I would say daemonettes seem like your best bet or just make it eat through 2-3 summoned units a turn for the game. It seems like a transcendent C'Tan could be a real pain for a daemon factory.

Daemonettes are not good for knights, but there are some options. Shooting them is actually not bad. I'll get into it later but if facing a Knight heavy army you want to try and fish for Misfortune. As Flickering fire will now be ST5 + Rending.

Plaguebearers are actually really good as well, glancing on 6s. another good option is fising specifically for misfortune. Another option after that is deep striking behind it for rear armour shots with Flickering fire. So there are some counters to a Knight that are pretty easy, but it's still a huge trouble. It's not that great at being tarpitted with Daemons as they'll lose combat then take a instability check. I don't know what GMC stands for.

Screamers with a 2+ reroll will slowly eat a knight. Any unit with invisibility can tarpit one.

Bloodcrushers are a very under rated unit when it comes to summoning. If an opponent brought lots of s8 they can stay home, but if an opponent like serpent spam, tau mp spam, sm bike grav gun spam is lacking s8 then 9 wounds of cav becomes pretty brutal.

I'll include that in the Combos section and when we get to dealing with Specific unit Tactics.

Yesterday confirmed that Daemon Factory beats Taudar.

Bloodthirsters Why would you take this?

This makes me a sad puppy. Are they that bad these days?

 schadenfreude wrote:
Screamers with a 2+ reroll will slowly eat a knight. Any unit with invisibility can tarpit one.

Stomp attacks ignore invisibility, don't they?

I'm rather skeptical of the usefulness of summoned Heralds of Tzeentch. They just seem to be so very easy to kill. Their only hope of survival seems to be line-of-sight blocking terrain. A Herald of Nurgle might only give you half the Warp Charges, but it's a lot more effort to kill. HoTs only seem worth it if you are willing to hold back and stay hidden, which strikes me as an unwise tactic; you need to be summoning units on objectives and behind enemy lines.

Heralds of Nurgle also seem to be more efficient than summoned pink horrors as WC generators - you can get three level 1 psykers for a similar cost to one level one brotherhood and I'd say six wounds at T 5, with shrouded, in three different units is more survivable than a single unit of 10 wounds with T 3. I know it's a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison to compare something that needs one instance of summoning to one that needs three sacrifices, but there's a big enough difference that I think it's worth mentioning.

Daemons of Tzeentch are probably the best option for getting an initial block of casters to start the summoning, but I'd probably avoid summoning them under most circumstances.

One big problem for plaguebearers is that they have to take one turn of shooting while bunched up. There are a lot of things which are very good at killing models who rely on cover saves while they are bunched up. Given that and the fact that nurgle heralds are actually capable of surviving without a unit to hide in, I'm inclined to rate them a bit lower than I would have initially.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Screamers with a 2+ reroll will slowly eat a knight. Any unit with invisibility can tarpit one.

Bloodcrushers are a very under rated unit when it comes to summoning. If an opponent brought lots of s8 they can stay home, but if an opponent like serpent spam, tau mp spam, sm bike grav gun spam is lacking s8 then 9 wounds of cav becomes pretty brutal.

cant a knight just remove whole units from the game with it's stomp?

Kyutaru wrote:
Yesterday confirmed that Daemon Factory beats Taudar.

Taudar isn't really a thing anymore now that they're not battle brothers.

Yeah i pointed out that Heralds of Nurgle are really good survivers.

Keeping the Heralds safe from single shooting attacks is not difficult really. Out of LOS or just run them away.

If people want to shoot them they can it doesn't give you a negative warp charge.

The whole goal is to maintain 30 to 40 warp charge

 Exergy wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Screamers with a 2+ reroll will slowly eat a knight. Any unit with invisibility can tarpit one.

Bloodcrushers are a very under rated unit when it comes to summoning. If an opponent brought lots of s8 they can stay home, but if an opponent like serpent spam, tau mp spam, sm bike grav gun spam is lacking s8 then 9 wounds of cav becomes pretty brutal.

cant a knight just remove whole units from the game with it's stomp?

If it's not a removed from play hit it's not going to do anything. Meanwhile the screamers glance on 8+ on 2d6. It's probably going to be a long fight.

 rabidguineapig wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:
Yesterday confirmed that Daemon Factory beats Taudar.

Taudar isn't really a thing anymore now that they're not battle brothers.

Anyone can be battle brothers when you allow them to be. We wanted to see Taudar vs Daemon Factory so we ignored the new allies chart.

Hollismason wrote:
Keeping the Heralds safe from single shooting attacks is not difficult really. Out of LOS or just run them away.

Which means they will probably never have any purpose other than generating warp charges. It also assumes that there is somewhere that is totally out of LOS.

Hollismason wrote:
If people want to shoot them they can it doesn't give you a negative warp charge.

If you're wasting warp charges (and other resources) on summoning units which don't survive to generate more warp charges, you effectively are losing warp charges.

I'm a bit dubious about the benefits of hiding daemons in bastions too. It only takes a couple of hammerheads, vanquishers or similar anti-tank options to turn a bastion from a safe haven into a death trap.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Screamers with a 2+ reroll will slowly eat a knight. Any unit with invisibility can tarpit one.

Bloodcrushers are a very under rated unit when it comes to summoning. If an opponent brought lots of s8 they can stay home, but if an opponent like serpent spam, tau mp spam, sm bike grav gun spam is lacking s8 then 9 wounds of cav becomes pretty brutal.

cant a knight just remove whole units from the game with it's stomp?

If it's not a removed from play hit it's not going to do anything. Meanwhile the screamers glance on 8+ on 2d6. It's probably going to be a long fight.

yes I was referring to the rule knights have where they simply remove units from the game.
Sure it isn't super reliable, but if the fight goes on a few combats it will happen.

Kyutaru wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:
Yesterday confirmed that Daemon Factory beats Taudar.

Taudar isn't really a thing anymore now that they're not battle brothers.

Anyone can be battle brothers when you allow them to be. We wanted to see Taudar vs Daemon Factory so we ignored the new allies chart.

Fair enough, definitely a good way to prove how they crazy they are.

Daemons are what could be called tier 0 now.