They broke the neck of our beloved Heldrake?!

Ok, so the Baleflamers (and Hades Autocannons) are now considered Hull-mounted and vague reference to 45/45 degree arcs (horizontal and vertical). However, the example they are citing is the Leman Russ and from it's mounting it is further constricted by the extension of its own treads on the left and right. Now maybe this is just being argumentative because I'm upset about the Heldrakes new 'broken-neck' syndrome but, the weapon mounts in the mouth and isn't constricted the same way as the demonstrated model.

My question is, does the Heldrake then have a 180/180 degree arc from the neck? Or since the roof and jaw of the Heldrakes mouth are obstacles, it can shoot 180* horizontal and 45*vertical now?

And all because Heldrakes were letting Chaos win a few more battles. FOR SHAME, GAMES WORKSHOP! For shame...

...I have to go bury my turkey now.

So, wait.

Did people consider the Heldrake to be garbage before it was FAQ'd to have turret-mounted weapons?

A broken unit is less broken.

I cannot summon any sympathy for you, and CSM is one of my main armies.

The heldrake was OP before. It got put back right where it should be, same as the vendetta. Though it's no longer broken, it is still a good unit. I just wouldn't go around running 3 of them.

Hull-mounted means 45/45 degree shooting arcs. 180 firing arcs are for most sponsoon-mounted guns, which the baleflamer/hades auto clearly is not.

No, unfortunately. The Leman Russ' hull-mounted weapon is only restricted by being hull-mounted. For further clarification, the 6th edition rulebook says "assume all hull-mounted weapons have a 45-degree firing arc".

Remember that you can pivot the template 90 degrees, though.

Good to know. And I never considered the Heldrake to be any more OP than many Loyalist fliers out there, or any flier with the ability to transport as well. Or Loyalist drop pods that don't mishap.

Chaos doesn't get a lot of its own, and I felt like the Heldrake was one of those things most unique to CSM. Perhaps I'm wrong though. -shrug-

It was our crutch. It's still okay with the baleflamer, but this makes the autocannon basically useless. With the nerf to Vector Strikes as well, the old "Vector Strike a flyer or other vehicle then autocannon its rear armour" tactic is completely gone. Combine this with Chaos/IG being Come the Apocalypse, the standard Chaos flyers (Heldrake and Vendetta) are out of action.

I've been planning to convert a Storm Raven (we don't get those either) into a Storm Eagle/Fire Raptor for a long time, and this only gives me more incentive. It's a shame that people still feel like FW units are optional (and evil), though, so half the time I'll probably not get to use it.

What's funny is that the Crimson Hunter recently caught my eye. I'd had a fledgling Eldar collection for years, but I promised myself I'm not allowed an Eldar army (or an Imperial Knight) until my Chaos are all assembled and painted. Anyway, I ignored the Hunter upon its release. It never really seemed interesting, but I realised that the model is actually really pretty and - shockingly, for something in 40k - looks like an actual aircraft. I want one.

EDIT: I really like planes.

I have a fierce weakness for the Hell Blade and Hell Talon fighters and bombers from Forge World. I started the road to corruption from DoW (all the way to Soul Storm) and the Hell Talon was my jamz. Like you said though, FW is an optional (and evil) force. Sucks...

Edit: Even those two flyers don't seem to quiet stack up to other Loyalist counterparts though. My biggest example is the fact that fliers are supposed to be able to deploy 4 weapon systems in one go, but there doesn't seem to be a single Chaos flyer capable of doing that.

And how the hell does IG become "Come the Apocalypse" for Chaos? ISN'T THAT WHERE OUR CULTISTS COME FROM?! XD

All this because Chaos players crushed Imperial Forces in the global campaign for Cadia. Someone's a sore loser. I guess the Thunderfire Cannons, Baneblades v1-15, Grav Guns and Chapter Tactics just weren't enough to keep the Heldrakes down. Hell, they've even got these damn Knights now! Because the Imperium needed Titans without going to Forge World to get them.

Can't even hide the bias anymore.

The Storm Eagle and Fire Raptor are standard Chaos fare - lose PotMS, drop a bunch of points. This is a benefit to the Fire Raptor in particular, because the turrets are independent anyway and don't need PotMS. Chaos Fire Raptors also get Reaper autocannon batteries, which Loyalists only get in 30k.

I have not heard of these units. Are they about to come out or is this Forge World? -digging around now-

Storm Eagles, Fire Raptors, Hell Talons and Hell Blades are all FW models

I still think that mr. Drake is a bit too strong. The torrent weapon rule means that the limited arc of fire is not so much of an issue.

It got a well deserved nerf.

Live with it.

If your army revolved around a strategy where you spammed them, then I have little sympathy towards the belly aching a lot of Chaos have.

We have nothing, and then the one thing we get that is worth a crap gets nerfed and everyone goes "Serves'em right?"

Seriously? Wth did Chaos ever do to some of you guys? This is like if Space Marine fliers only had two weapons, no bombs or missiles, and no transports.

"ABOUT TIME!" and then the loyalists go "Bu-bu-bu-bu-!"

Was the Heldrake really kicking peoples ass THAT bad? Did it occur to anyone that the Heldrake was all Chaos had to fight fliers and now it can't do that as well anymore?

No, I never flew a squad of Heldrakes, nor would I want to. One is good enough and I'd love a second but I know what that looks like. Meanwhile, we've got Buff Commanders who can nuke the ground, the sky, and give themselves saves and use plasma that doesn't explode, yet no one is crying foul over the damn Riptide and I don't see it having it's legs being blown off.

So I'll ask again, was the Heldrake really that bad? 1 weapon + VS and then Daemon stuff? Is this really worse than say Kairos?

I don't understand where this Heldrake hatred is coming from. ;___;

And as for the Torrent Weapon rule, it actually is more limited. I was trying to figure this out the other day, and by my calculations you have to start your template in the arc, but then you can never point the template any which way but forward at that point. You could try sideways, but you're still extremely limited in where that template falls now. Is that the problem? The damn Baleflamer? Because now it sounds like a bunch of Space Marines are crying about how crappy their armor is now. Still not a reason to take out the only damn thing Chaos had going for it. :\

You do realize that with the new 7th ed. rules you can ally with IG/AM, right? Traitor Guard, while not optimal, it is legal.

 AdeptSister wrote:
You do realize that with the new 7th ed. rules you can ally with IG/AM, right? Traitor Guard, while not optimal, it is legal.

As seen in another thread, WHY IS EVERYONES SOLUTION TO A SCREWED UP CHAOS CODEX TO ALLY OR BE SOMEONE ELSE!!!? I DON'T WANT TO BE SOMEONE ELSE! I WANT TO BE FREAKING CHAOS SPACE MARINES!!

Because of this attitude that CSM players should just shut up and be happy being bottom tier 24/7 is going to make Chaos disappear and THEN what? Hell, as seen with just 7th ed coming out, Heldrake sales TANKED because GW couldn't stop screwing with us! Wonder what that looks like everywhere else?

On a side note, you players who are just peachy about the lament of CSM players: Will you be just as happy when those players say "DEUCES" and you're left with nothing but other Space Marines to play against?

Think about that for a second. Would you rather have a decent rival or would you rather keep fighting the same jack ass good guys over and over again because you've shamed the antithesis so badly that they CANNOT exist? Simply put: What is a world without Bad Guys? Stupid, that's what. (In terms of fantasy based gaming and things of the sort. Obviously we don't need more bad guys in the real world making things stupid. Got more than we know what to do with as is.)

And yeah, we can ally with "Traitor Legion" as "Come the Apocalypse." Give me a friggin break. One more slap in the face to Chaos players who can't even pretend to re-enact what the damn Black Library publishes. And then add further insult to injury with a statement "Forge the Narrative!"

Oh you mean the one where CSM's are set up to always lose? Yeah, I'd love that narrative. Such a great story. Explains why the only CSM book I could find was Treacheries of the Space Marines.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:


Was the Heldrake really kicking peoples ass THAT bad? Did it occur to anyone that the Heldrake was all Chaos had to fight fliers and now it can't do that as well anymore?
. :\

Yes, it was...and it is still good against flyers (the new vector strike nerf is against non flyers)

You're slower than an obese great unclean one in molasses on a cold day with cement tied to his feet to this one.

OK. But I trying to understand your anger. The 360 degree shooting was a change in the original FAQ. It was addition to the codex. Now they changed it back to the original reading. It's still a great Flyer. It even got better due to improved jink save (The built in 5++ works for most occasions) and the new vehicle chart. One shotting it is much rarer and it will be able to use IWND more often.

It seems like you gained more than you lost.

Don't feed the trolls.

Seriously though, the chaos codex is pointless now. I use all my chaos models with imperial books. The last excuse I had for running chaos were obliterators. Now Centurions fill that void.
Want to play Nurgle? Iron hands does it better.
Khorne? Use space wolves, blood Angles or Black templars.
Iron warriors? Imp Fists
Night lords? Ravenm Guard or BA
Tzeentch? Grey Knights
Slaanesh? White scars
Black Legion? Ultra Marines
Word Bearors? Salamander/ultras

There is zero reason to kneecap yourself using that lemon of a book.

PS the Chaos book has only ever been done well ONCE... I wouldn't wait for GW... Just make the rules set work for you.

I made a sweet IW army using the space marine book. I have a storm talon thats a helicopter conversion and I use a drop podding decimator as an iron clad... Also nothing is more IW then thunderfire canons and centurions...

Kain wrote:You're slower than an obese great unclean one in molasses on a cold day with cement tied to his feet to this one.

I...I don't understand. It might have something to do with that arrow to the knee.

AdeptSister wrote:OK. But I trying to understand your anger. The 360 degree shooting was a change in the original FAQ. It was addition to the codex. Now they changed it back to the original reading. It's still a great Flyer. It even got better due to improved jink save (The built in 5++ works for most occasions) and the new vehicle chart. One shotting it is much rarer and it will be able to use IWND more often.

It seems like you gained more than you lost.

Fair enough. Survivability increased, and the Heldrake was already very survivable. I had forgotten about the new vehicle chart. That is pretty sweet for fliers and I believe the Heldrake rocks 3.

Trying to reach the Acceptance stage of Grief..

Aside from the fact it completely doesn't look right on the Heldrake in the first place, I think the limitation that puts on the Hades Autocannon is pretty bad. Getting rear shots is going to be nigh impossible in some cases. I think I would be happier with the Baleflamer along getting hung at 45-180 so it can still shoot sideways and not backwards and the autocannon keeping its 360, especially against enemy fliers. That's where it's going to hurt the most.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

Fair enough. Survivability increased, and the Heldrake was already very survivable. I had forgotten about the new vehicle chart. That is pretty sweet for fliers and I believe the Heldrake rocks 3.

Trying to reach the Acceptance stage of Grief..

Aside from the fact it completely doesn't look right on the Heldrake in the first place, I think the limitation that puts on the Hades Autocannon is pretty bad. Getting rear shots is going to be nigh impossible in some cases. I think I would be happier with the Baleflamer along getting hung at 45-180 so it can still shoot sideways and not backwards and the autocannon keeping its 360, especially against enemy fliers. That's where it's going to hurt the most.

Can't say I ever say anyone running the hadesdrake. The new chart is going to make it a royal pain to kill. Though if you want a codex to gripe about check out the nids again. We still don't get the love: vehicle charts only hurt us, no new psycher tables, still only have CTA allies, FMC's are vulnerable to skyfire blasts and templates (so baledrakes can roast them), Smash took a nerf, Vector strike nerf against ground targets hurts, Cover for the MC's got worse, and now we have to deal with Super Heavies and no good counters in the base codex.

barnowl wrote:
FMC's are vulnerable to skyfire blasts and templates (so baledrakes can roast them)

Wait, what?

 SarisKhan wrote:

barnowl wrote:
FMC's are vulnerable to skyfire blasts and templates (so baledrakes can roast them)

Wait, what?

Yuppers. Seems Flyers are immune but that line was left of the FMC rules.

Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.

Versus this

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap
Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule). Template and Blast
weapons, and any other attacks that don’t roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.

Well, this implies that my Heldrake can vomit flames at my friend's Flying Hive Tyrant even when it's Swooping...

*evil laughter*

This nerf is frigging ridiculous. We have one good unique unit in the codex and GW take and ruin it. Chaos Space Marines has never been competitive but with helldrakes I thought that might change. And it did for a while but now CSM is dead again. My favourite tactic of pop tank and roast the innards are gone and now the only thing that remained to sustain the hellturkey is nerfed as well! Seriously GW? Are you obsesed with killing the Chaos players? And come the apocalypse with guard? Right after I bought the codex and built my army to work with my chaos marines you crush it under your boot. Thabks a lot you [see forum posting rules] and games worjshop. You have killed my army.

Makes total sense that a flying dragon monster can spit flames at other flyers. And skyfire + blast templates should work against all flyers, not just fmc's. Anti-air weaponry that fires explosive rounds has been a thing for a pretty long time.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Don't feed the trolls.

Seriously though, the chaos codex is pointless now. I use all my chaos models with imperial books. The last excuse I had for running chaos were obliterators. Now Centurions fill that void.
Obliterators are a swiss army knife of guns that can DS and tote invul saves. Centurions get Grav or Las. So you're either a tank/MC hunter, or you tack on MEQ/TEQ to that list and slice your range in half.

Want to play Nurgle? Iron hands does it better.
Good one chap. Let me know when my marines become T5 and can take double specials while toting poisoned knives for punching down MCs on top of a 5+ FNP.

Khorne? Use space wolves, blood Angles or Black templars.
Black Templars get nothing near the toolset of Chaos. Don't even.

Iron warriors? Imp Fists
This one's true.

Night lords? Ravenm Guard or BA
Also true.

Tzeentch? Grey Knights
I... ok, mechanically, maybe, I guess? Not anymore under the FAQ for GK though.

Slaanesh? White scars
Very different beasts. Very. Scars don't have cover ignoring, don't have higher initiatives, and don't have access to FNP.

Black Legion? Ultra Marines
Smurfs rely on tac marines, the red headed stepchild of the Codex: SM troop choices. Meanwhile, four Maulerfiends or Drakes.

Word Bearors? Salamander/ultras
I see zero correlation between the two. But I guess it's true, because Word Bearers got as much treatment as Night Lords. That is, zero.

There is zero reason to kneecap yourself using that lemon of a book.

PS the Chaos book has only ever been done well ONCE... I wouldn't wait for GW... Just make the rules set work for you.

I made a sweet IW army using the space marine book. I have a storm talon thats a helicopter conversion and I use a drop podding decimator as an iron clad... Also nothing is more IW then thunderfire canons and centurions...

Slow down. Slow waaaaay down. Chaos dex isn't in the best of places, but you're reeeeeeaaaally stretching for some of these. As in, most of these. The biggest drawbacks to the Chaos book are point costs and some silly fluff rules that shoot you in the foot. But let's chill out, because it's not armageddon because the turkey forget how to turn its head. It's still the flier that will roast anything MEQ or worse while never having to jink and regenerating hull points while clawing the eyes out of other fliers. It just can't do it 360 degrees anymore. The thing was taken before that was even ruled in, and it'll be taken after. It's still GOOD. It's simply not THE BEST.

And for the record, people DO complain about Tau Buffmanders and Riptides. They just forgot about them for a time after Eldar took the wheel and started smashing up everything else until they butted heads with a Circus list.

Sorry those that had visions of roasting flyers with Skyfire Baleflamers, the Hard To Hit rule specifically says that blast, template and weapons that do not roll to hit cannot target zooming flyers.

One assumes for FMCS too, but I haven't checked.

FMC's entry lacks the specification of no templates, blasts and other attacks that don't roll to hit. Only that it has to be snapshots unless the model or weapon has skyfire

baledrake does technically have skyfire.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Don't feed the trolls.

Seriously though, the chaos codex is pointless now. I use all my chaos models with imperial books. The last excuse I had for running chaos were obliterators. Now Centurions fill that void.
Obliterators are a swiss army knife of guns that can DS and tote invul saves. Centurions get Grav or Las. So you're either a tank/MC hunter, or you tack on MEQ/TEQ to that list and slice your range in half.

Want to play Nurgle? Iron hands does it better.
Good one chap. Let me know when my marines become T5 and can take double specials while toting poisoned knives for punching down MCs on top of a 5+ FNP.

Khorne? Use space wolves, blood Angles or Black templars.
Black Templars get nothing near the toolset of Chaos. Don't even.

Iron warriors? Imp Fists
This one's true.

Night lords? Ravenm Guard or BA
Also true.

Tzeentch? Grey Knights
I... ok, mechanically, maybe, I guess? Not anymore under the FAQ for GK though.

Slaanesh? White scars
Very different beasts. Very. Scars don't have cover ignoring, don't have higher initiatives, and don't have access to FNP.

Black Legion? Ultra Marines
Smurfs rely on tac marines, the red headed stepchild of the Codex: SM troop choices. Meanwhile, four Maulerfiends or Drakes.

Word Bearors? Salamander/ultras
I see zero correlation between the two. But I guess it's true, because Word Bearers got as much treatment as Night Lords. That is, zero.

There is zero reason to kneecap yourself using that lemon of a book.

PS the Chaos book has only ever been done well ONCE... I wouldn't wait for GW... Just make the rules set work for you.

I made a sweet IW army using the space marine book. I have a storm talon thats a helicopter conversion and I use a drop podding decimator as an iron clad... Also nothing is more IW then thunderfire canons and centurions...

Slow down. Slow waaaaay down. Chaos dex isn't in the best of places, but you're reeeeeeaaaally stretching for some of these. As in, most of these. The biggest drawbacks to the Chaos book are point costs and some silly fluff rules that shoot you in the foot. But let's chill out, because it's not armageddon because the turkey forget how to turn its head. It's still the flier that will roast anything MEQ or worse while never having to jink and regenerating hull points while clawing the eyes out of other fliers. It just can't do it 360 degrees anymore. The thing was taken before that was even ruled in, and it'll be taken after. It's still GOOD. It's simply not THE BEST.

And for the record, people DO complain about Tau Buffmanders and Riptides. They just forgot about them for a time after Eldar took the wheel and started smashing up everything else until they butted heads with a Circus list.

Actually I don't need to slow anything down. I am not the one raging, I dislike the crap rules for CSM. You know the guys the book is named for but are horribad? So I use whatever book makes sense with the faction.

I play drop wolves also but use Khorne as my theme. GH have much better options and rules them KB. They can take dread claws (drop pods) have standards that don't suck, and mark of wolfen can be represented by a possessed marine. Oh and they can have a terminator skull champion (wolfguard) lead them. On top of all this, they have Juggernaut cavalry.... oops i mean thunder wolf.... yea see how its basically a khorne army in disguise once you ignore the idiotic wolf names?

You can knock my ideas all you want but they work if you put any imagination into it.

If you don't mind the chaos book by all means play it. I wasn't even addressing you. So go back under your bridge.

For the record I don't even field my heldrake, I have played it twice and thought it was stupid. takes no skill or thought to use and had a busted FAQ ruling attached for no reason. Which is why it;s funny people keep calling it a nerf when it now plays as it did out from the codex. That nerf was uneccessary and stupid.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Says the obvious Troll who a - Is quoting a childrens story about toys 2 - has Proverbs in their quote and III - Go away before I feed you to a bridge.

Badablack wrote:Makes total sense that a flying dragon monster can spit flames at other flyers. And skyfire + blast templates should work against all flyers, not just fmc's. Anti-air weaponry that fires explosive rounds has been a thing for a pretty long time.

If we're going to go that route, then realistically all of the Bolters should have Sky Fire options seeing as how they are shooting micro-missiles instead of bullets. It would probably break a lot of armies with that available, but if we're talking realistically, then I don't see why bolters don't have AA rounds as well for things like Jump/Jet Pack Infantry.

Tell you what, loyalists who just can't understand why they are killing so many Chaos players every day: Lose ATSKNF. Lose your Grav Guns. Lose your Centurions. Lose your Alliances. Hell, lose your guided Drop Pods while you're at it. Lose all of those nifty things that bolster your armies so well, and then come talk to me about "Less QQ. Moar Pew Pew!" Also, you're terminators don't get Thunder Hammer/Storm Shields either and you have to foot slog them into combat. Lemme know how that works for you.

I laugh at all the loyalist and Xenos players who outright bitched at Chaos Players taking even a single Heldrake back in 6th Edition.

Going to a friendly tournament we would always see some scrubs and tools bringing 3 Tides or Knights claiming the Heldrake was a unit for bad players. Yet you see all these Tides and Knights? LOL So skilled in that Nova Charge broski.

Get real with this garbage. It's a bloody game. Everyone saying the Drake was the best flyer, was moronic. Simple. It had 1 weapon that you could easily mitigate the damage done by it, by simply spreading out. God forbid you didnt put your models into a Warhammer Fantasy Tray formation along with 50 other Fire Warriors then cry like a baby when your units got roasted to cinders because you expected MY ARMY to walk towards you. Get a grip.

The drake was fine. You wanna know what's broken? Drop Pods. Free immunity to scatter and mishaps? Oh okay, leme go grab my Dreadclaws and we'll see how YOU like having Chaotic Drop Po- Oh wait, the loyalists bitched about that too and it was removed LOL

 Red Corsair wrote:
Actually I don't need to slow anything down. I am not the one raging, I dislike the crap rules for CSM. You know the guys the book is named for but are horribad? So I use whatever book makes sense with the faction.

I play drop wolves also but use Khorne as my theme. GH have much better options and rules them KB. They can take dread claws (drop pods) have standards that don't suck, and mark of wolfen can be represented by a possessed marine. Oh and they can have a terminator skull champion (wolfguard) lead them. On top of all this, they have Juggernaut cavalry.... oops i mean thunder wolf.... yea see how its basically a khorne army in disguise once you ignore the idiotic wolf names?

You can knock my ideas all you want but they work if you put any imagination into it.

If you don't mind the chaos book by all means play it. I wasn't even addressing you. So go back under your bridge.

For the record I don't even field my heldrake, I have played it twice and thought it was stupid. takes no skill or thought to use and had a busted FAQ ruling attached for no reason. Which is why it;s funny people keep calling it a nerf when it now plays as it did out from the codex. That nerf was uneccessary and stupid.

Alright, you DO need to dial back the insults. Firstly, not a troll. Secondly, public forum, so despite your not addressing my I'm more than entitled to chime in on the thread.

If you want to use other armies as Chaos, that's fine. Whatever floats your boat. If you think Khorne fits Wolves more than Wolves fits Wolves, that's cool. Go ahead. That's not a tactics discussion though. That's you advocating people to not even try. Personally, I don't see it as a Khorne army in disguise with idiotic wolf names. It's a Space Wolves army. But hey, paint 'em red and worship the Blood God all you want while throwing them down on the board. I'm not even knocking your ideas, I'm knocking your assessment that the CSM dex is outclassed eight ways to sunday by everything Space Marine.

barnowl wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

barnowl wrote:
FMC's are vulnerable to skyfire blasts and templates (so baledrakes can roast them)

Wait, what?

Yuppers. Seems Flyers are immune but that line was left of the FMC rules.

Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.

Versus this

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap
Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule). Template and Blast
weapons, and any other attacks that don’t roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.

azreal13 wrote:Sorry those that had visions of roasting flyers with Skyfire Baleflamers, the Hard To Hit rule specifically says that blast, template and weapons that do not roll to hit cannot target zooming flyers.

One assumes for FMCS too, but I haven't checked.

While this means that you can't target FMC's with blast weapons (because snapshots) it is technically possible for Template and Blast weapons targeted at a different unit to scatter on to the FMC and hurt it, unlike for Flyers.

Hey buddy remember this:

 obsidiankatana wrote:


Slow down. Slow waaaaay down. Chaos dex isn't in the best of places, but you're reeeeeeaaaally stretching for some of these. As in, most of these. .

Yea that's pretty much the prime example of trolling. Your more then welcome to give opinions but this was a sleazy post so don't label me as hostile when you were out of line.

Sorry if I hit a nerve, but I have been playing chaos a long time and from my personal experience with every edition with exception to the infamous 3.5 dex they have taken a massive hit. A chaos lord relegated to leading worthless spawn? Yea real nice material...

Currently the best options are all spawn, cultists, oblits and helldrakes. Yes still helldrakes. I already addressed my opinions on why the helldrake is good.

Personally, i don't like the units we were pigeon holed into needing to take. I do however love the fluff and the models which is why I simply advocated using another book that does an army better.

This isn't some great thread about inspired tactics either, it's a couple guys nerd raging over the loss of a FAQ'ing that should have never existed. A FAQ that was very much a crutch for Codex: Cultists Spawn Helldrakes

GoliothOnline wrote:
I laugh at all the loyalist and Xenos players who outright bitched at Chaos Players taking even a single Heldrake back in 6th Edition.

Going to a friendly tournament we would always see some scrubs and tools bringing 3 Tides or Knights claiming the Heldrake was a unit for bad players. Yet you see all these Tides and Knights? LOL So skilled in that Nova Charge broski.

Get real with this garbage. It's a bloody game. Everyone saying the Drake was the best flyer, was moronic. Simple. It had 1 weapon that you could easily mitigate the damage done by it, by simply spreading out. God forbid you didnt put your models into a Warhammer Fantasy Tray formation along with 50 other Fire Warriors then cry like a baby when your units got roasted to cinders because you expected MY ARMY to walk towards you. Get a grip.

The drake was fine. You wanna know what's broken? Drop Pods. Free immunity to scatter and mishaps? Oh okay, leme go grab my Dreadclaws and we'll see how YOU like having Chaotic Drop Po- Oh wait, the loyalists bitched about that too and it was removed LOL

Have an exalt.

And obsidian, disagree or not, the proof is glaring. Just take weapons options from the Space Marines and match them up against Chaos and you'll find there is absolutely no comparison. There is nothing in the CSM codex that can compete with SS/TH Loyalists. There is NOTHING in the codex that replaces Plasma Cannons except vehicle mounted plasma. Loyalists have Machine Spirits that increase a vehicles combat effectiveness; we have Daemon Engines that barely survive IF the dice like us at that time. NO CONTEST.

The Space Marines are golden child and the loyalists who run them aren't going to understand that until they start losing their codex the way Chaos just doesn't get one. How about this, loyalists? How pissed would you be if they took away YOUR chapter tactics? Ya'll don't have Legions anymore either, and more Chapters than anyone can shake a stick at, so why don't you lose YOUR TACTICS TOO? OH YOU'RE NOT GOING TO DO THAT? THEN SHUT UP ABOUT THE PROBLEMS OF A GROUP THAT YOU AREN'T APART OF AND DON'T UNDERSTAND IF YOU'RE JUST GOING TO TRY AND CONVINCE US THAT WE'RE WRONG. WE'RE NOT. THE CSM'DEX IS FUBAR AND LIKE I SAID, WHEN WE'RE NOT AROUND FOR LOYALISTS TO KICK, WHAT'RE YOU GOING TO DO THEN? FIGHT THE TAU? I'M SURE THAT'LL MAKE YA'LL FEEL BETTER, LIKE IT ALREADY HAS.

Anyone ever heard of the Tau gun line? The bane of everyones existence, right up there with Seer-Stars and the Flying Circus?

As Scarface said, "You need people like (us) around so that you can point and say 'That's the bad guy." Otherwise, you're feats and heroics count for NOTHING. GIVE US OUR DAMN ARMIES!!!

I think you need to double check the definition of trolling, friend. I could quote you back "sorry if I hit a nerve," but perhaps we both took offense where none was intended.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I think you need to double check the definition of trolling, friend. I could quote you back "sorry if I hit a nerve," but perhaps we both took offense where none was intended.

You mean much later on once you already trolled me?

Go back and read through. You were the guy who came out from the tall grass for a cheap shot. Your first post in the thread in fact.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I think you need to double check the definition of trolling, friend. I could quote you back "sorry if I hit a nerve," but perhaps we both took offense where none was intended.

You mean much later on once you already trolled me?

Go back and read through. You were the guy who came out from the tall grass for a cheap shot. Your first post in the thread in fact.

Alright man, take it as you will. I'm done with the mud slinging fest in your head, though.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Says the obvious Troll who a - Is quoting a childrens story about toys 2 - has Proverbs in their quote and III - Go away before I feed you to a bridge.

Yeah, that fun T word sure gets bandied around a lot. Obviously you didn't bother to look up Proverbs 18:2 so here it is:

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions.

Somewhat apt I think.

Thank you for making such a well thought out rebuttal to the idea of silly people raging about their toys.

"Go away" lol

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Says the obvious Troll who a - Is quoting a childrens story about toys 2 - has Proverbs in their quote and III - Go away before I feed you to a bridge.

Yeah, that fun T word sure gets bandied around a lot. Obviously you didn't bother to look up Proverbs 18:2 so here it is:

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions.

Somewhat apt I think.

Thank you for making such a well thought out rebuttal to the idea of silly people raging about their toys.

"Go away" lol

Sorry, but meme posting is typically the mark of a troll, or did I read the memo everyone else got wrong? Obvious troll is obvious? Didn't I feed you to a bridge? And no, I wasn't pointing out the proverb itself, but more the context from which it was taken. A 1.5k year old book (tops, per archaeological evidence) v. over 12,000 years of undiscovered human history, starting with Gobekli Tepi. Consequently, it's been proven that those first book writers I mentioned happen to destroy the second groups books who built things like Gobekli Tepi I mentioned before, which was grossly more abundant in its time. See: Library of Alexandria. Such is my understanding and airing, not of an opinion, but fact.

Keep story time and Toy Story for the appropriate discussions.

Let's go about this systematically:

Heldrake:
flamer: Took a nerf. Very narrow arc, but that means you'll be flying on and shooting, or flying on and vector striking something and shooting something near the back of the enemy's board. Still good for some broadsides or a devastator squad. This really sucks though. Should have been 180. HUGE nerf here.

Autocannon: Also pretty big nerf since you can't really get rear armor. Again, huge nerf.

Vector strikes, ground: HUGE nerf. AP2 means you can hit a 2+ armor save something or other, and it's good for taking out the last hull point of something, but really not something to rely on. Huge nerf, but this is along with all the other FMCs that could vector strike, so.... eh?

vector strikes, air targets: This is kind of a sidegrade. It does d3 hits, not d3+1, but they're AP2 - then again, the vehicle damage table got shifted one point up as well, so it's basically just as good at killing flying vehicles as before. It is slightly better against FMC.....on the off chance that someone's daemon prince rolled "armor save improves by 1" on their gift of mutation. Otherwise, we just lost an attack.

Survivability: People claim that the damage table is more forgiving. Not really. A weapon destroyed result still makes it useless [even more, since it can't rely on vectors], and there's more results now that shake it. It's possessed, but that's not a guarantee and snap firing means it can't shoot its flamer at all. However, in addition to the explodes result being shifted away to needing an Ap2 or better weapon, immobilized results will now cause it to crash on a 1 or 2. And what if it suffers two immobilized results? Is that 3 hull points for a crash and burn? Locked velocity used to be a different result. Now what happens?"

People also mention jinking - sure, if we decide we DON'T want to shoot the flamer in our next turn, we can jink for a 4+ save. That's not exactly ideal. Overall, its survivability is about the same as before. Except now people won't shoot it as much, as it's not nearly as deadly. I guess there's that.


I never ran 3 heldrakes, but now I'm debating running even one. I feel as though transports are going to become more prevalent this edition, meaning it'll take a little work to crack the enemy's eggs before you can cook the yolks. I wonder sometimes if the heldrake is going to spend more time in hover mode to try to coax the enemy into close combats, and spend its time skimming around to get those rear armor shots or good flamer hits, or just to line up its vector strikes for the closing turns of the game.


It's worth noting that the torrent rule allows the flamer template to be placed so that it goes out of line of sight, so as long as the narrow end is within your arc, the wide end can go anywhere. Now, models out of your LOS can't be wounded by it (regular wound allocation rules), but if you're looking at five space marines along your sight arc, and can place the template so it hits 7 that includes some that are outside of it, it just improved your odds of killing the ones you can see. Food for thought, as far as that's concerned.



As far as the chaos codex being worthless, I disagree. I've managed to win a GT with them, and the new smash rules leave walkers with a bit of an advantage in the multiple S10 attacks department. Since it's harder to kill vehicles now with non-Ap2/1 weapons, defilers can better take advantage of their 4 hull points. Taking a defiler with an allied soulgrinder and a few helbrutes or maulerfiends really gives you a fairly solid assault force that the enemy has to deal with. Granted we're pushing 600 points for this little brigade, but I think it would give enemies something significant to worry about.

Adapt and Overcome. Isn't that the mantra? I agree with everything your saying, and I think that's whats driving me mad. The Space Marines aren't putting up with this kind of crap are they? Something about Vendettas...what, they're now more like Chaos Forge World air support? Because Chaos Air Support sucks compared to the other armies.

This sounds stupid, but something that would make me happy as a fair compromise? Let our Heldrakes carry a bomb. Just one bomb and our single weapon with it's crappy firing arc. Hell, even take Vector Strike away until we can unload the bomb. Wouldn't bother me because we'd at least have one more weapon on our hands vs the 4 weapons that can be fired by fliers. Sounds stupid, but at least I'd believe GW was kind of thinking about Chaos somewhat.

Of course I say that and my favorite part of 6.5 ed is the Psychic phase which I'm hoping Sorcerers can use well. Of course that could be asking too much as well. Like giving us something besides duct tape bolters. -__-

Actually a ML3 sorcerer that does whatever he can to take lots and lots of witchfire powers can use his dice to cast power after power after power at the enemy. With a spell familiar, you can 1-dice a lv 1 power and reroll if you fail.

Now if the enemy has lots of dice to deny you, that kind of sucks. But you can make them choose between cancelling your shooting powers or cancelling your big buff powers. Start off the phase with a prescience on your massive unit of shooty cultists, which if they get the power off will unleash a storm of S3 shots at any available infantry (in addition to rerolling misses in cc), which the enemy will want to throw dice at to dispel (needing 6's). Then start casting witchfires.

Take a daemon prince, too. Why not?

Trasvi wrote:


While this means that you can't target FMC's with blast weapons (because snapshots) it is technically possible for Template and Blast weapons targeted at a different unit to scatter on to the FMC and hurt it, unlike for Flyers.

Or just use templates/blasts with Skyfire, then the blasts and templates are not snap firing. So one Crone roasting Baledrake thanks to a skyfire template.

Whoa wait a minute. If blasts/templates from a FMC or flyer work against a FMC then Be'Lekor can be slapped in the face with mind strike missiles from a GK storm raven. It's double perils per turn unless he casts invisibility on himself, but then the CSM player is just purchasing an invisible shrouding bubble for 350 points.

Keep the topic on track, please. There is no need to sidetrack discussion with repeated images, especially those insulting to others.

Oh well, I've no option but to lament. I'm a Noise Marine, so my laments kill people.

There's a little too much caffeine being consumed by participants ITT, the insults and the shouting are reminding me of 4chan.

The Heldrake has gone from 'too good' to 'good' which for me is a plus, because now I feel I can field them as allies to my Daemons and not get sideways looks and muttering!

Why shouldn't your Daemon army have it's own Fire Dragon? We're totally the army that would get that kind of thing!

... I mean sure, Eldar get Fire Dragons... that aren't dragons... and their ancient fantasy race equivalent had actual Fire Dragons... but still!!! We're Chaos! We deserve dragons!

This thread seems to have gotten out of hand rather quickly.

RULE #1 everyone - it isn't optional.

Thanks!

Kyutaru wrote:
Why shouldn't your Daemon army have it's own Fire Dragon? We're totally the army that would get that kind of thing!

... I mean sure, Eldar get Fire Dragons... that aren't dragons... and their ancient fantasy race equivalent had actual Fire Dragons... but still!!! We're Chaos! We deserve dragons!

I absolutely agree, but it is one of those situations where it is very hard to argue "fluff" or "I like the model" (which I genuinely do with the Heldrake, nobody believes me!) when the unit is so strong in game and belongs to a different faction.

Now, arguably, it isn't significantly better than anything from my own book I could field, which in turn makes me more comfortable about taking one or two and it not being something that ruins the game for my opponent.

So since a mod has now stepped in and is chosing what to edit and what not to, I'll do some editting of my own and ignore the Toy Story troll myself.

On that note, the Heldrake (I'll repeat) was not THAT GOOD. It was GOOD, but not nearly as good as (pick a flier) from the Imperium. Period. It had one weapon that, when knocked off, turned it into a sub par wrecking ball. I say sub-par because at str 7, you're not killing any Land Raiders.

Like all things Chaos, we only get things that COULD be good if X, but then we get something crippling like "can't draw LOS from gun barrel mouth" or "broken neck syndrome."

If anyone wants to argue this point further and isn't a CSM player in the first place, then I'd like some hard imperical evidence of your position.

Yes, we got IWND and 5++, both of which are not guaranteed to go off. So a Vendetta or w/e putting 10+ shots into the rear of a Heldrake is probably going to drop it, especially if it penetrates with something like, oh I don't know, a Twin-Linked Lazcannon? One good shot from something like that and there goes the best model in the CSM codex.

The Heldrake had exactly one good weapon that was gauranteed to come off on a Weapon Destroy, which is still possible on the new vehicle table, from pot shots or Skyfire.

SO THERE IS NO REASON TO NERF THIS UNIT. And the excuse "Well it was like that first, so really we're going back to the way it was-" ISN'T VALID. Obviously they changed it the first time for a reason, so changing it back is the equivalent of a child that can't make up its mind.

"Chaos players are upset they don't have a flier or anything that can fight fliers."

"Here is the Heldrake then."

"Well that is fine, except that it can't do it's job as well with the limited firing arc. No rear armor shots, ya'digg?"

"Ok, well let's change it and make it better then."

"Well we tried that, but now all of the other fliers are upset that they have to share their airspace and marines are upset because there is something that can beat them now."

"Well we can't let CSM players do that to our Spess Mahrins, now can we? Go back to the old rules."

I'm not impressed by back-and-forth wastefulness. Especially when it is backed more by a profit motive than by a business ethic.

 Alpharius wrote:
This thread seems to have gotten out of hand rather quickly.

RULE #1 everyone - it isn't optional.

Thanks!

Apparently this wasn't clear enough?

So, I'll be even more clear now - any additional Rule #1 violations in here will net the poster in question a suspension.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:


On that note, the Heldrake (I'll repeat) was not THAT GOOD. It was GOOD, but not nearly as good as (pick a flier) from the Imperium. Period. It had one weapon that, when knocked off, turned it into a sub par wrecking ball. I say sub-par because at str 7, you're not killing any Land Raiders.

Nephilim.

Like all things Chaos, we only get things that COULD be good if X, but then we get something crippling like "can't draw LOS from gun barrel mouth" or "broken neck syndrome."

Most fliers have limited fire arcs on some or all of their weapons, it is what makes it possible for non flying units and armies to handle them.

Yes, we got IWND and 5++, both of which are not guaranteed to go off. So a Vendetta or w/e putting 10+ shots into the rear of a Heldrake is probably going to drop it, especially if it penetrates with something like, oh I don't know, a Twin-Linked Lazcannon? One good shot from something like that and there goes the best model in the CSM codex.

The Heldrake had exactly one good weapon that was gauranteed to come off on a Weapon Destroy, which is still possible on the new vehicle table, from pot shots or Skyfire.

SO THERE IS NO REASON TO NERF THIS UNIT. And the excuse "Well it was like that first, so really we're going back to the way it was-" ISN'T VALID. Obviously they changed it the first time for a reason, so changing it back is the equivalent of a child that can't make up its mind.

"Chaos players are upset they don't have a flier or anything that can fight fliers."

"Here is the Heldrake then."

"Well that is fine, except that it can't do it's job as well with the limited firing arc. No rear armor shots, ya'digg?"

"Ok, well let's change it and make it better then."

"Well we tried that, but now all of the other fliers are upset that they have to share their airspace and marines are upset because there is something that can beat them now."

"Well we can't let CSM players do that to our Spess Mahrins, now can we? Go back to the old rules."

I'm not impressed by back-and-forth wastefulness. Especially when it is backed more by a profit motive than by a business ethic.

The Heldrake is almost as good against fliers as it was, and has had easy mode removed from its weapons system (unless some douche tries to play it RAW and argues it can't fire, but then you've got bigger issues if you're playing someone like this)

I see that it hurts more in a Codex where you already had limited strong units, but it still has a superlative weapon against the most common statline in the game, and superior durability to most other fliers, look at what it still is, not what it was.

Again, I don't understand how anyone can ignore the fact that this wasn't a nerf. They removed an ADDITIONAL ruling from a previous FAQ. If you are new to the game and bought the book and model you would never even know that once upon a time GW decided to make its hull mounting a turret for no rational reason other then to push sales.

Not a nerf. They removed an idiotic FAQ ruling no one ever asked for.

Storm ravens cost an arm and a leg and take up a precious heavy slot, talons are paper thin and fall out of the sky to stiff breeze. Neither carries enough ordnance to roast anything MEQ off the field in one go. Nor can either put ten shots up a turkey's tailpipe without the chaos player being very obliging.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

And obsidian, disagree or not, the proof is glaring. Just take weapons options from the Space Marines and match them up against Chaos and you'll find there is absolutely no comparison. There is nothing in theCSM codex that can compete with SS/TH Loyalists. There is NOTHING in the codex that replaces Plasma Cannons except vehicle mounted plasma. Loyalists have Machine Spirits that increase a vehicles combat effectiveness; we have Daemon Engines that barely survive IF the dice like us at that time. NO CONTEST. 

Missed this post.

Obliterators tote plasma cannons as an option. And very few loyalists take them even with access. And while you are correct on the hammer front, loyalists also don't have access to 2+ save suicide combo weapons or 31pt terminators with free power weapons, nor can we divvy out T 5, bonus invulnerable saves, or initiative bonuses. Our basic troops can't traipse around with 2 base attacks and more on the charge. We do not have MEQ slaying str 8 cover ignoring blast. We can't have FNP 5+ thrown around like candy.

So I'd say there's a contest to be had.

Worth mentioning that until the new book at least BA SR are FA, but valid point for GK and C:SM.

I could go on for days about how the CSM codex is inferior to the SM codex in every way. However, I realized a while ago that somebody who refuses to see this isn't really worth arguing with. It's extremely obvious with even a brief look-over.

 herpguy wrote:
I could go on for days about how the CSM codex is inferior to the SM codex in every way. However, I realized a while ago that somebody who refuses to see this isn't really worth arguing with. It's extremely obvious with even a brief look-over.

Which is the only reason I suggested finding outside sources for your models. If you like the CSM book then I am happy for you. If your unhappy then just find a MEQ codex that does them justice, its not like there aren't 5 other marine books...oh wait... And with the good marines they can all allie as BB meaning if it takes 2 sources so be it. Now with come the appoc allies, demons aren't an excuse either since their idiot ruling makes joining them impossible and being BB almost moot.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
I could go on for days about how the CSM codex is inferior to the SM codex in every way. However, I realized a while ago that somebody who refuses to see this isn't really worth arguing with. It's extremely obvious with even a brief look-over.

Which is the only reason I suggested finding outside sources for your models. If you like the CSM book then I am happy for you. If your unhappy then just find a MEQ codex that does them justice, its not like there aren't 5 other marine books...oh wait... And with the good marines they can all allie as BB meaning if it takes 2 sources so be it. Now with come the appoc allies, demons aren't an excuse either since their idiot ruling makes joining them impossible and being BB almost moot.

Basically you are saying go and play SM? We want CSM. That is why we play the CSM book. If we wanted to play SM then we would BUT WE DONT. CANT YOU SEE THIS OR HAVE GW BRAINWASHED YOU INTO A HELPLESS LAPDOG OF THE EMPEROR?

LET THE GALAXY BURN

People do appreciate that netiquette dictates that caps = SHOUTING don't they?

Cause there's a lot going on ITT and it's giving me a virtual headache.

Personally, I think the Legion rules from the HH FW books would make a great basis for a CSM dex, just be respectful of the fluff and the stuff that isn't around in 40K any more, and there's some splendid, fluffy, effective but not cheesy options there.

 Chaos Rising wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
I could go on for days about how the CSM codex is inferior to the SM codex in every way. However, I realized a while ago that somebody who refuses to see this isn't really worth arguing with. It's extremely obvious with even a brief look-over.

Which is the only reason I suggested finding outside sources for your models. If you like the CSM book then I am happy for you. If your unhappy then just find a MEQ codex that does them justice, its not like there aren't 5 other marine books...oh wait... And with the good marines they can all allie as BB meaning if it takes 2 sources so be it. Now with come the appoc allies, demons aren't an excuse either since their idiot ruling makes joining them impossible and being BB almost moot.

Basically you are saying go and play SM? We want CSM. That is why we play the CSM book. If we wanted to play SM then we would BUT WE DONT. CANT YOU SEE THIS OR HAVE GW BRAINWASHED YOU INTO A HELPLESS LAPDOG OF THE EMPEROR?

LET THE GALAXY BURN

No basically I am saying play what ever you like. How is that such a hard concept? If you don't want to run out of a SM dex don't. I just don't understand the bitching if you don't choose to be proactive. Just because the fluff is different doesn't make the rules any less viable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:
People do appreciate that netiquette dictates that caps = SHOUTING don't they?

QFT

I can't believe how quick people are to jump down someones throat ITT.

I find it really interesting that in my area and the next big 40k town over play a ton of chaos without complaint and I've seen the book do well and beat most all armies without even taking 3 drakes. I personally don't see this as a crippling buff given that it still is an ap3 torrent that just now requires some thought to use. While this is ancedotal evidence, I do believe that chaos can hold is own against all but the most meta tourney builds.

Where are you finding the FAQ's?

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
Where are you finding the FAQ's?

Here. GW decided they were better off at the Black Library site for whatever reason.

 riverhawks32 wrote:
I find it really interesting that in my area and the next big 40k town over play a ton of chaos without complaint and I've scene the book do well and beat most all armies without even taking 3 drakes. I personally don't see this as a crippling buff given that it still is an ap3 torrent that just now requires some thought to use. While this is ancedotal evidence, I do believe that chaos can hold is own against all but the most meta tourney builds.

This. CSM can still hold their own without relying on Nurgle and pre-7th drakes. Helldrakes are still really good in my opinion.

The comments previously that Helldrakes could never be considered 'good' because they couldn't threaten Land Raiders is ridiculous, they're role is killing med-light infantry and AA with the vector strikes, as a bonus you can now threaten Riptides and other ground targets.

D

 evildrcheese wrote:

 riverhawks32 wrote:
I find it really interesting that in my area and the next big 40k town over play a ton of chaos without complaint and I've scene the book do well and beat most all armies without even taking 3 drakes. I personally don't see this as a crippling buff given that it still is an ap3 torrent that just now requires some thought to use. While this is ancedotal evidence, I do believe that chaos can hold is own against all but the most meta tourney builds.

This. CSM can still hold their own without relying on Nurgle and pre-7th drakes. Helldrakes are still really good in my opinion.

The comments previously that Helldrakes could never be considered 'good' because they couldn't threaten Land Raiders is ridiculous, they're role is killing med-light infantry and AA with the vector strikes, as a bonus you can now threaten Riptides and other ground targets.

D

I mentioned Land Raiders, and I said they weren't "THAT" good. Yes, the Heldrake was good, hands down. It is a harrassing unit. It's supposed to Vector Vehicles (str 7) and then eat the infantry inside with the Baleflamer (which could also hurt Rhinos). If you didn't go that way, then the Hades Autocannon was good for chasing out enemy fliers. BUT THAT'S REALLY IT. It is a support flier to a T since it a) doesn't transport and b) doesn't put enough damage on the ground to be a real hunter. Since that is its rule and GW has to handicap the Heldrake some how, the first handicap was limiting the vehicles it could knock over (Land Raiders, because Loyalists use them and CSM's hate them). Now we have Broken-Neck Syndrome to let loyalists on the ground out maneuver a flier. And that's really where I come back to with this. The Heldrake FAQ did more to help the damn Loyalist armies than it did anyone else, with the exception of Orks who REALLY hate the Baleflamer. And this seems to be a recurring motif. FAQ = Balance AGAINST Space Marines. Because Space Marines are number 1, not only in game but in sales, which is where these implementations really come from. After all, GW is a business out for money.

If Chaos sold better, or they just didn't hate CSM's, then things would probably be different. But they are the way they are for a reason.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

Was the Heldrake really kicking peoples ass THAT bad? Did it occur to anyone that the Heldrake was all Chaos had to fight fliers and now it can't do that as well anymore?

Yes, it was that bad.

"No dude that had not occurred to us"

I Guess i just have to sell my army n call it quits. I was losing all the time bc i only ever had 1 drake. This isnt the first time gw destroyed my army. I use to rock double defilers n 3 squads of melta chosens. That became garbage as they nerfed deffy to sell fiendy. I would rather keep chosen as non troops than give up infilitrate.

The local gw closed down 5 years ago. The next closest by 2 towns away closed a year ago. The next gw is over 30 miles away. I wont be seeing any more action anyways. Now is the right time to give up.

So many people gave me gripe over just 1 drake as i watch them focus everything at it doa. And it such that ig/am are come the apocalypse allies. That makes no sense fluff wise because ig/am are the most susceptible to chaos.
And i dont understand this battle forge and combined arms detachments.

Filch, my closest FLGS is 90 miles away. Fret not. You're BB w the new hotness (daemons). Take my advice, don't sell. Just take a breath and a break.

 doktor_g wrote:
Filch, my closest FLGS is 90 miles away. Fret not. You're BB w the new hotness (daemons). Take my advice, don't sell. Just take a breath and a break.

I'm with Filch on this one. Aside from the fact that the GW near by is full of kids who all groan when you show them a Heldrake (but field 3 Riptides and all of the wonderful abuse I come to expect from my enemies) and the fact that I can't even walk into a smaller shop and say "Chaos" without getting a similar reaction? Wtf for? I'm not wasting my money just so a bunch of people can bitch about their Space Marines having to fight. It's stupid and it makes a mockery of the entire culture.

No wonder so many people are making the exodus from GW! I'm about to do it too!! And I don't freaking want too!!! I just want my damn CSM's. ><

Like I said, maybe GW and the Loyalist Fanboys will get it once there is no one but other loyalists and Tau/Dar to fight. Then they can finally start bitching at each other for a change instead of ganging up on the bottom of the barrel just so they don't have to sit there for a turn.

Side note though: You just contributed to the exodus with your assesment "BB with Daemons (and nothing else)." WE DON'T WANT DAEMONS. WE WANT CHAOS SPACE MARINES! <---speaking for some and not necessarily Filch.

No need to yell. Lol. I still will get owned by CSM regardless of your nerf. 7th ED makes it rough on us green skins. I mean d6 hits with no save on our boys in wagons and trucks? I mean... Dang. It's still a torrent.... And can't y'all still vector strike (with a vehicle) with just the wing tip rather than the base? This thing is still bad ass. I groan when I'm across the table from you folks because I want to beat you! I know that the triple drakes make it nigh impossible. I still play though. Same vs the trip tides. Or Draigo Dreadknight spam. I sigh and put my little Boyz back in their box turn by turn.

I hope CSM get a 7E book that is at least fluffy and balanced. Personally, I'm too invested in 40k to walk away, as I'm here for the fluff.

@doktor_g On the bright side Orks will be getting there new codex soon. Hopefully it will give orks that boost they need.

 Filch wrote:
I I use to rock double defilers n 3 squads of melta chosens. That became garbage as they nerfed deffy to sell fiendy.

Defilers have 4 hull points and an invulnerable save. In this edition of vehicle damage, they're pretty far from garbage.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Filch wrote:
I I use to rock double defilers n 3 squads of melta chosens. That became garbage as they nerfed deffy to sell fiendy.

Defilers have 4 hull points and an invulnerable save. In this edition of vehicle damage, they're pretty far from garbage.

No, they're garbage. AV12 is bad, 4hp means nothing when the meta is about glancing av12 to death. The battlecannon limits the rest of the defiler. Getting into combat defeats the point of a battlecannon, and a maulerfiend would do as well or better, for fewer points. A LRBT is ~50 points cheaper at AV14 front 3hp. I'd take a Russ over a defiler any day, CTA or not.

Defiler is the epitome of the CSM Codex: it looks cool and has some neat qualities, but it tries to be good at several wildly differing things without succeeding in any of them and is significantly overpriced.

^ all of this.

A defiler is an expensive Maulerfiend Forgefiend hybrid bastard child. It has upgrades to it for no reason and is over costed to the point it barely sees table time. I have 3. I would know. I converted / Magnetized them to fulfill the roles of Soul Grinders now and threw the top halves into a bin I've dubbed "Void of Light" Because those bloody things will never see the light of day again. That is, unless they remove the TL Heavy Bolter / reaper and Heavy Flamer as they never see use and simply add points to an already grossly over costed model.

while the Heldrake in and of itself was in need of this change, the problem was that it basically acted as a giant crutch for the CSM book as a whole.

So this is a change the unit needed, it does negatively effect the viability of CSM armies in a way that wasn't exactly needed.

 erick99 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Filch wrote:
I I use to rock double defilers n 3 squads of melta chosens. That became garbage as they nerfed deffy to sell fiendy.

Defilers have 4 hull points and an invulnerable save. In this edition of vehicle damage, they're pretty far from garbage.

No, they're garbage. AV12 is bad, 4hp means nothing when the meta is about glancing av12 to death. The battlecannon limits the rest of the defiler. Getting into combat defeats the point of a battlecannon, and a maulerfiend would do as well or better, for fewer points. A LRBT is ~50 points cheaper at AV14 front 3hp. I'd take a Russ over a defiler any day, CTA or not.

I agree. The Defiler isn't a 200pt unit. It's got a large amount of mutually exclusive weapons that it can't make effective simultaneous use of (it's got a long range ordnance weapon and lots of CC punch with crappy WS and Init, and some random other weaponry). On top of that, it costs significantly more than other units with the same guns or similar CC capability, while being either notably easier to kill (vs something like a 150pt Leman Russ with a battlecannon) or not particularly harder (e.g. vs a 100pt Helbrute or 125pt Maulerfiend)

Ultimately, it's 4HP, 5+ invul, and IWND merely make it roughly as hard to kill as it was in 5E, where it was 25% fewer points and still nobody was impressed with it

 Vaktathi wrote:
while the Heldrake in and of itself was in need of this change, the problem was that it basically acted as a giant crutch for the CSM book as a whole.

So this is a change the unit needed, it does negatively effect the viability of CSM armies in a way that wasn't exactly needed.

Would you agree that the biggest problem that needed fixing was Heldrakes shooting backwards on units it VS'd? Because then we can say 180* arc and everyone gets over this overnight.

so I dragged out the Heldrake model just now to check out what its threat area is now, and picked up a couple ideas here.

1.) Models need only be under the template to be hit, so the vertical 45' arc shouldn't be that much concern. The template itself doesn't need to be touching the models it seems.

And 2.) Maybe now it will be wiser to steer our Drakes from the direction of nose first, with the base on a slant as opposed to the direction the models base points us with that awful neck bend. Then just rotate/pivot from the point of the nose.

Follow your nose, wherever it goes" is my new Heldrake catchphrase.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
so I dragged out the Heldrake model just now to check out what its threat area is now, and picked up a couple ideas here.

1.) Models need only be under the template to be hit, so the vertical 45' arc shouldn't be that much concern. The template itself doesn't need to be touching the models it seems.

And 2.) Maybe now it will be wiser to steer our Drakes from the direction of nose first, with the base on a slant as opposed to the direction the models base points us with that awful neck bend. Then just rotate/pivot from the point of the nose.

Follow your nose, wherever it goes" is my new Heldrake catchphrase.

This sounds like Vector Dancer might be a good addition to the Heldrake, since I always kind of figured it (being a Dragon with fire breath and all) to be something that more or less prowls the map in a circle scorching Custer and his Last Stand. Probably way off base, but thought it might be a suggestion to get over this crap firing arc and the prospect of being outmanuevered as soon as the bird hits the board.

That would be a good fix, RWA.

I never bought a Heldrake but might actually get one for my Word Bearers. It will be fun incorporating the flame job on that huge thing!

To EBay!

Its a new edition, take time to re-open the book instead of looking at one change in the context of 6th edition.

Re-look at units and options, look at the missions, look at the changes to scoring and what that opens up. Not taking three heldrakes? Well look at the fast attack options again.

Personally I am glad its back to what it was when I bought it. Now I feel like I can play the two I have again. I am also excited to try and get some maulerfiends and throw them on the table now. With the nerf to smash a lot of walkers are getting new life.

I played 3 games on a 1500 pts. tournament yesterday. Full 7th Edition with SA and IA allowed.

Throughout most of all three games, I was using the Heldrake as a Fast Skimmer (Hover Mode). It's performed well in all three games, and has survived all three games. That included fighting against 2 mild Daemon Factory lists. It can easily clear and grab distant objectives.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:


Side note though: You just contributed to the exodus with your assesment "BB with Daemons (and nothing else)." WE DON'T WANT DAEMONS. WE WANT CHAOS SPACE MARINES! <---speaking for some and not necessarily Filch.

And yet you're comparing your Codex to the entire Imperium? That's some pretty intense cognitive dissonance going on there.

You'll also note that there's no one other than you referring to the "other side" as "fanboys".

Really interesting how some guys think, the Helldrake was okay how it was.

It was and still is a highly mobile torrent-flamer-template that kills nearly everything that has no invulnerable save or 2+ armor. Even if you spread your units rigth it will hit a lot due to torrent. I really dont understand the complaints. Its like it was with the Vendetta where a 20 Point increase and decreased transport capacity turned a unit from OP to utterly crap....

I really have sympathies for chaos players complaining about their overall bad Codex, buts its no excuse for an obvious OP unit.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:


Side note though: You just contributed to the exodus with your assesment "BB with Daemons (and nothing else)." WE DON'T WANT DAEMONS. WE WANT CHAOS SPACE MARINES! <---speaking for some and not necessarily Filch.

And yet you're comparing your Codex to the entire Imperium? That's some pretty intense cognitive dissonance going on there.

You'll also note that there's no one other than you referring to the "other side" as "fanboys".

Would the context sound better if I called myself a "Chaos fanboy?" Because I know I am. And I have a problem with people who can't recognize traits about themselves and would get defensive about it, but then I guess this comes to "pot calling the kettle black" and I'm not about to play that stupid semantics game.

And there is nothing dissonance about comparing the Chaos Marines to their Loyalists Counterparts since that is where the damn Chaos Marines started. There really isn't a whole lot of difference between the Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, yet for some reason we treat them both like their as different as Black and White. They're not. Chaos Space Marines steal Space Marine tech ALL THE TIME. We're wearing the same damn armor. We have the same standard gun. The difference is our guns have mouths and our armor fuses to our skin, while the Loyalists apparently just call up Mars and say "Hey, we need you to make a new gun for us."

Wtf is the Dark Mechanicum doing then?

Chaos Lord: "Yeah hi, I need you to make some Daemon Hammers for our terminators, and if you could, would you please make a shield for them too?"
Dark Mechanicum: "NO! WE'RE BUSY PUTTING PLASMA CANNONS ON VEHICLES, K'THX!"
Chaos Lord: "Wuh-wait! Can you put some of those plasma cannons on our havocs?"
Dark Mechanicum: "NO! WE'RE BUSY PUTTING A HADES AUTOCANNON ON THE HELDRAKE NOW. TRY AGAIN LATER PLEASE!"
Chaos Lord: "Well wtf?! Can we get the Heldrake then?!"
Dark Mechanicum: "SORRY NO! WE BROKE IT'S NECK ON ACCIDENT AND ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO FIX THAT. BAI-BAI NAO!! AND DON'T YOU DARE ASK US ABOUT RAZORBACKS OR MISSILES!!! WE DON'T HAVE THE TIME FOR THAT EVEN THOUGH THE ORKS STUCK GROTS IN ROCKETS AND CALLED THEM "MISSILES"."
Chaos Lord: "Whoa! The Orks pilot their missiles with grots? WHY CAN'T WE DO THAT WITH DAEMONS?!!"
Dark Mechanicum: "SORRY!! -krrzzk- BAD CONNECTION!!! -Krrrrzzkk- THINK THERE IS A DROP POD COMING IN NOW. CAN'T HEAR YOU! -Krrrrzzkkk-"
Chaos Lord: "WHERE DID YOU GET A DROP POD FROM?! WTF IS GOING ON HERE!!!"
Dark Mechanicum: "GOOD LUCK!"

Chaos = Worst Customer Service Department Ever.

-Disclaimer: This was a dramatization and in some ways may reflect on the reality of the game as a whole. Any relation to persons living or dead are tragic, and you should shoot yourself in the foot. Probably will feel better than realizing that Chaos apparently has no innovative properties where technology is concerned, cuz demons and magic should be enough...like Dino-bots.

So the Chaos faction is Chaotic.

Chaos is Republicans.

RedWingArmada, how many games have you played with the new heldrake?

I haven't gotten any yet, but that's because I've been trying out rhino-borne troops and maulerfiends and helbrutes, and having a grand time with them. I suggest you try it, and see how you like it!

MasterOfGaunts wrote:
Really interesting how some guys think, the Helldrake was okay how it was.

It was and still is a highly mobile torrent-flamer-template that kills nearly everything that has no invulnerable save or 2+ armor. Even if you spread your units rigth it will hit a lot due to torrent. I really dont understand the complaints. Its like it was with the Vendetta where a 20 Point increase and decreased transport capacity turned a unit from OP to utterly crap....

I really have sympathies for chaos players complaining about their overall bad Codex, buts its no excuse for an obvious OP unit.

If your opponent is near the 2" max coherency you'll get about 4 dudes under the template. That's 4 infantry per turn under the old rules starting usually at turn 2 and eventually having to fly off the board at some point or hover and lose all flyer benefits. 4 dead infantry per turn is not a lot of firepower in the current game. The baleflamer with turret rules really and truly wasn't as bad as the internet made it out to be. The baledrake never was an auto-take, spawn and bikes have always been top contenders in the book.

JubbJubbz wrote:

If your opponent is near the 2" max coherency you'll get about 4 dudes under the template. That's 4 infantry per turn under the old rules starting usually at turn 2 and eventually having to fly off the board at some point or hover and lose all flyer benefits. 4 dead infantry per turn is not a lot of firepower in the current game. The baleflamer with turret rules really and truly wasn't as bad as the internet made it out to be. The baledrake never was an auto-take, spawn and bikes have always been top contenders in the book.

That's all well and good on a flat board with one squad of infantry and a single drake. Having played 1500pt games against drakes with terrain, I can tell you that spacing even three 10 man squads is a pain while keeping them effective for my purposes.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

That's all well and good on a flat board with one squad of infantry and a single drake. Having played 1500pt games against drakes with terrain, I can tell you that spacing even three 10 man squads is a pain while keeping them effective for my purposes.

'

A pain to be sure, but to completely neuter one of your opponents units that he counts on, worth it.

JubbJubbz wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

That's all well and good on a flat board with one squad of infantry and a single drake. Having played 1500pt games against drakes with terrain, I can tell you that spacing even three 10 man squads is a pain while keeping them effective for my purposes.

'

A pain to be sure, but to completely neuter one of your opponents units that he counts on, worth it.

Debatable, given that 170 points neuter up to 500 of mine without even killing them, and still losing 3-4 models to it.

Except you're then potentially exposing yourself to fire from other avenues.

The "if they're spaced out it reduces their effectiveness" argument if fine and dandy, but in reality, with the amount of cover available, the positions of your other units and those of your opponent, the optimum space to fill with a unit isn't always available.

Besides, if you do anything because of what your opponent may or may not do that you wouldn't have chosen to do regardless, it is a small victory for him.

 azreal13 wrote:
Except you're then potentially exposing yourself to fire from other avenues.

The "if they're spaced out it reduces their effectiveness" argument if fine and dandy, but in reality, with the amount of cover available, the positions of your other units and those of your opponent, the optimum space to fill with a unit isn't always available.

Besides, if you do anything because of what your opponent may or may not do that you wouldn't have chosen to do regardless, it is a small victory for him.

So you're saying you have to take into account cover from other sources of fire, positioning, and that these choices will affect the effectiveness of the unit vs other units? This is basically just describing a wargame and doesn't indicate that the heldrake was overpowered. In my experience it was really the constant VS'ing in combination with the flamer that made the heldrake a powerful (but not overly so) unit. Now your opponent really has to go out of their way for you to be able to pull off both in a turn and as a result its damage output cannot keep up with what we see in games now. This was a different story when CSM first came out and we had yet to see the power increase that shooting would see. Whats really depressing was the hadesdrake going from a decent choice to just plain laughable.

Doing something based on what your opponent may or may not do is the essence of any strategic and/or tactical based game play. How can you play a game without regard to what the enemy is doing? I agree that you don't want to be constantly on your back foot trying to react and put out fires, but because you see a certain tactic coming and act accordingly isn't a bad thing. The heldrake doesn't have much choice it what it does, it has one gun. Its coming so you know spreading out will be worth it. Its like bubble wrapping against drop melta, you know its coming so act accordingly.

 Spellbound wrote:
RedWingArmada, how many games have you played with the new heldrake?

I haven't gotten any yet, but that's because I've been trying out rhino-borne troops and maulerfiends and helbrutes, and having a grand time with them. I suggest you try it, and see how you like it!

I wish I could say "enough" but that's not true. Since 7th Ed came out, I've been having to move and deal with a broken ankle, plus kids, legal affairs and my wife losing her mind in the process (but in the good way, not the way that sees someone in jail. She's upset becomes I'm not around currently).

On top of that, I'm dealing with extremely limited means and army (no joke, I've got two DV Helbrutes, a Rhino and a Heldrake [Heldark was the "showcase" piece I bought first, and not even for game play. I just liked the damn thing]). So while my physical experience may be limited in playing games, my tactical is not. I've watched enough BatReps and seen enough games played first hand to see what kind of effect the new Heldrake is going to have on armies. I've even randomly play tested my crap Chaos army against itself, just to see how difficult it would be to turn around and flame again without getting chewed up by something that could hit it in the three turns it took to double back.

It's simple math and strategy, although I won't argue that replaces experience by any means. Just contributing.

And also guys, I'd like to say one thing about the title of this thread. Ok, so I get there is hyperbole there. I did that as a form of "character," not to be taken as literally as I think some of the opposition has come in here and rabble roused about. Seriously? Is there anyone actually "lamenting" over this damn game? I don't like it, but I'm not in bed crying myself to sleep over it.

Come on kids. A little perspective goes a long way. lol

Yes, yes, let the hate flow through you. . .

As an Ork player I get to play the ultimate "Codex got nerfed, boo hoo card"... At least for a couple of weeks.

Chaos still gets a good flier, better than the Ork ones. Also

OBLITERATORS!!! Holy Gork and Mork I wish we had something like that or Sternguard.

Oh, and you get awesome ID causing MC's. None of those in Codex:Orks.

Nah, I still side with Spikey Boyz over SM's. Why would anyone debase themselves just to win?

JubbJubbz wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Except you're then potentially exposing yourself to fire from other avenues.

The "if they're spaced out it reduces their effectiveness" argument if fine and dandy, but in reality, with the amount of cover available, the positions of your other units and those of your opponent, the optimum space to fill with a unit isn't always available.

Besides, if you do anything because of what your opponent may or may not do that you wouldn't have chosen to do regardless, it is a small victory for him.

So you're saying you have to take into account cover from other sources of fire, positioning, and that these choices will affect the effectiveness of the unit vs other units? This is basically just describing a wargame and doesn't indicate that the heldrake was overpowered. In my experience it was really the constant VS'ing in combination with the flamer that made the heldrake a powerful (but not overly so) unit. Now your opponent really has to go out of their way for you to be able to pull off both in a turn and as a result its damage output cannot keep up with what we see in games now. This was a different story when CSM first came out and we had yet to see the power increase that shooting would see. Whats really depressing was the hadesdrake going from a decent choice to just plain laughable.

Doing something based on what your opponent may or may not do is the essence of any strategic and/or tactical based game play. How can you play a game without regard to what the enemy is doing? I agree that you don't want to be constantly on your back foot trying to react and put out fires, but because you see a certain tactic coming and act accordingly isn't a bad thing. The heldrake doesn't have much choice it what it does, it has one gun. Its coming so you know spreading out will be worth it. Its like bubble wrapping against drop melta, you know its coming so act accordingly.

Fair enough, just scatter the word "disproportionate" and similar over my original post and call it done.

If you really want to lament, let me quote the old Marks of Chaos.

- Mark of Khorne - Fearless, +1 Attack, Reroll charge range
= Aside from always needing to sweeping advance, fairly similar.

- Mark of Nurgle - Fearless, +1 Toughness, True Grit
= That last ability means bolter counts as a close combat weapon.

- Mark of Slaanesh - Fearless, Enemy gets -1 Initiative in close combat
= Effectively the same thing as the +1 Initiative they now get.

- Mark of Tzeentch - Fearless, + 1 Wound, Slow and Purposeful, no Veteran abilities, Sorcerers ALWAYS pass psychic tests.
= DAFUQ?? Is this even the same game???


Notice a word in each of those that is missing from Modern 40k? FEARLESS!


I used to play a Tzeentch and Khorne army and it was lots of fun... assault was actually useful, Bloodthirsters were scary STR 8 beasts with 5 attacks, and chaos space marines marked by Tzeentch were effectively Thousand Sons with double the hitpoints. Sorcerers were also masters of magic and never failed at casting Doombolts, which you could give to your entire squad if you wanted. Heck, units of Chosen marked by Tzeentch were ALL considered Sorcerers. Every single one of them could have Doombolt and never needed to even attempt a psychic test.

Some people complain about the Traitor Legions, others the lack of our old Dreadnoughts, some just want Daemons to be part of the default army again. But damnit, even the Marks of Chaos have been nerfed.

 PipeAlley wrote:
Yes, yes, let the hate flow through you. . .

As an Ork player I get to play the ultimate "Codex got nerfed, boo hoo card"... At least for a couple of weeks.

Chaos still gets a good flier, better than the Ork ones. Also

OBLITERATORS!!! Holy Gork and Mork I wish we had something like that or Sternguard.

Oh, and you get awesome ID causing MC's. None of those in Codex:Orks.

Nah, I still side with Spikey Boyz over SM's. Why would anyone debase themselves just to win?

Orks were pretty good in 3rd, 4th and 5th.

I mean Orks had the most updates besides Nids and SM (up until 5th/6th, which was strange).

Heck the only reason you are weak now is due to age and codex creep, rather then straightforward nerfs on the ork codex.