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 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Don't feed the trolls.

Seriously though, the chaos codex is pointless now. I use all my chaos models with imperial books. The last excuse I had for running chaos were obliterators. Now Centurions fill that void.
Obliterators are a swiss army knife of guns that can DS and tote invul saves. Centurions get Grav or Las. So you're either a tank/MC hunter, or you tack on MEQ/TEQ to that list and slice your range in half.

Want to play Nurgle? Iron hands does it better.
Good one chap. Let me know when my marines become T5 and can take double specials while toting poisoned knives for punching down MCs on top of a 5+ FNP.

Khorne? Use space wolves, blood Angles or Black templars.
Black Templars get nothing near the toolset of Chaos. Don't even.

Iron warriors? Imp Fists
This one's true.

Night lords? Ravenm Guard or BA
Also true.

Tzeentch? Grey Knights
I... ok, mechanically, maybe, I guess? Not anymore under the FAQ for GK though.

Slaanesh? White scars
Very different beasts. Very. Scars don't have cover ignoring, don't have higher initiatives, and don't have access to FNP.

Black Legion? Ultra Marines
Smurfs rely on tac marines, the red headed stepchild of the Codex: SM troop choices. Meanwhile, four Maulerfiends or Drakes.

Word Bearors? Salamander/ultras
I see zero correlation between the two. But I guess it's true, because Word Bearers got as much treatment as Night Lords. That is, zero.

There is zero reason to kneecap yourself using that lemon of a book.

PS the Chaos book has only ever been done well ONCE... I wouldn't wait for GW... Just make the rules set work for you.

I made a sweet IW army using the space marine book. I have a storm talon thats a helicopter conversion and I use a drop podding decimator as an iron clad... Also nothing is more IW then thunderfire canons and centurions...

Slow down. Slow waaaaay down. Chaos dex isn't in the best of places, but you're reeeeeeaaaally stretching for some of these. As in, most of these. The biggest drawbacks to the Chaos book are point costs and some silly fluff rules that shoot you in the foot. But let's chill out, because it's not armageddon because the turkey forget how to turn its head. It's still the flier that will roast anything MEQ or worse while never having to jink and regenerating hull points while clawing the eyes out of other fliers. It just can't do it 360 degrees anymore. The thing was taken before that was even ruled in, and it'll be taken after. It's still GOOD. It's simply not THE BEST.

And for the record, people DO complain about Tau Buffmanders and Riptides. They just forgot about them for a time after Eldar took the wheel and started smashing up everything else until they butted heads with a Circus list.

Actually I don't need to slow anything down. I am not the one raging, I dislike the crap rules for CSM. You know the guys the book is named for but are horribad? So I use whatever book makes sense with the faction.

I play drop wolves also but use Khorne as my theme. GH have much better options and rules them KB. They can take dread claws (drop pods) have standards that don't suck, and mark of wolfen can be represented by a possessed marine. Oh and they can have a terminator skull champion (wolfguard) lead them. On top of all this, they have Juggernaut cavalry.... oops i mean thunder wolf.... yea see how its basically a khorne army in disguise once you ignore the idiotic wolf names?

You can knock my ideas all you want but they work if you put any imagination into it.

If you don't mind the chaos book by all means play it. I wasn't even addressing you. So go back under your bridge.

For the record I don't even field my heldrake, I have played it twice and thought it was stupid. takes no skill or thought to use and had a busted FAQ ruling attached for no reason. Which is why it;s funny people keep calling it a nerf when it now plays as it did out from the codex. That nerf was uneccessary and stupid.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Says the obvious Troll who a - Is quoting a childrens story about toys 2 - has Proverbs in their quote and III - Go away before I feed you to a bridge.

Badablack wrote:Makes total sense that a flying dragon monster can spit flames at other flyers. And skyfire + blast templates should work against all flyers, not just fmc's. Anti-air weaponry that fires explosive rounds has been a thing for a pretty long time.

If we're going to go that route, then realistically all of the Bolters should have Sky Fire options seeing as how they are shooting micro-missiles instead of bullets. It would probably break a lot of armies with that available, but if we're talking realistically, then I don't see why bolters don't have AA rounds as well for things like Jump/Jet Pack Infantry.

Tell you what, loyalists who just can't understand why they are killing so many Chaos players every day: Lose ATSKNF. Lose your Grav Guns. Lose your Centurions. Lose your Alliances. Hell, lose your guided Drop Pods while you're at it. Lose all of those nifty things that bolster your armies so well, and then come talk to me about "Less QQ. Moar Pew Pew!" Also, you're terminators don't get Thunder Hammer/Storm Shields either and you have to foot slog them into combat. Lemme know how that works for you.

I laugh at all the loyalist and Xenos players who outright bitched at Chaos Players taking even a single Heldrake back in 6th Edition.

Going to a friendly tournament we would always see some scrubs and tools bringing 3 Tides or Knights claiming the Heldrake was a unit for bad players. Yet you see all these Tides and Knights? LOL So skilled in that Nova Charge broski.

Get real with this garbage. It's a bloody game. Everyone saying the Drake was the best flyer, was moronic. Simple. It had 1 weapon that you could easily mitigate the damage done by it, by simply spreading out. God forbid you didnt put your models into a Warhammer Fantasy Tray formation along with 50 other Fire Warriors then cry like a baby when your units got roasted to cinders because you expected MY ARMY to walk towards you. Get a grip.

The drake was fine. You wanna know what's broken? Drop Pods. Free immunity to scatter and mishaps? Oh okay, leme go grab my Dreadclaws and we'll see how YOU like having Chaotic Drop Po- Oh wait, the loyalists bitched about that too and it was removed LOL

 Red Corsair wrote:
Actually I don't need to slow anything down. I am not the one raging, I dislike the crap rules for CSM. You know the guys the book is named for but are horribad? So I use whatever book makes sense with the faction.

I play drop wolves also but use Khorne as my theme. GH have much better options and rules them KB. They can take dread claws (drop pods) have standards that don't suck, and mark of wolfen can be represented by a possessed marine. Oh and they can have a terminator skull champion (wolfguard) lead them. On top of all this, they have Juggernaut cavalry.... oops i mean thunder wolf.... yea see how its basically a khorne army in disguise once you ignore the idiotic wolf names?

You can knock my ideas all you want but they work if you put any imagination into it.

If you don't mind the chaos book by all means play it. I wasn't even addressing you. So go back under your bridge.

For the record I don't even field my heldrake, I have played it twice and thought it was stupid. takes no skill or thought to use and had a busted FAQ ruling attached for no reason. Which is why it;s funny people keep calling it a nerf when it now plays as it did out from the codex. That nerf was uneccessary and stupid.

Alright, you DO need to dial back the insults. Firstly, not a troll. Secondly, public forum, so despite your not addressing my I'm more than entitled to chime in on the thread.

If you want to use other armies as Chaos, that's fine. Whatever floats your boat. If you think Khorne fits Wolves more than Wolves fits Wolves, that's cool. Go ahead. That's not a tactics discussion though. That's you advocating people to not even try. Personally, I don't see it as a Khorne army in disguise with idiotic wolf names. It's a Space Wolves army. But hey, paint 'em red and worship the Blood God all you want while throwing them down on the board. I'm not even knocking your ideas, I'm knocking your assessment that the CSM dex is outclassed eight ways to sunday by everything Space Marine.

barnowl wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

barnowl wrote:
FMC's are vulnerable to skyfire blasts and templates (so baledrakes can roast them)

Wait, what?

Yuppers. Seems Flyers are immune but that line was left of the FMC rules.

Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.

Versus this

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap
Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule). Template and Blast
weapons, and any other attacks that don’t roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.

azreal13 wrote:Sorry those that had visions of roasting flyers with Skyfire Baleflamers, the Hard To Hit rule specifically says that blast, template and weapons that do not roll to hit cannot target zooming flyers.

One assumes for FMCS too, but I haven't checked.

While this means that you can't target FMC's with blast weapons (because snapshots) it is technically possible for Template and Blast weapons targeted at a different unit to scatter on to the FMC and hurt it, unlike for Flyers.

Hey buddy remember this:

 obsidiankatana wrote:


Slow down. Slow waaaaay down. Chaos dex isn't in the best of places, but you're reeeeeeaaaally stretching for some of these. As in, most of these. .

Yea that's pretty much the prime example of trolling. Your more then welcome to give opinions but this was a sleazy post so don't label me as hostile when you were out of line.

Sorry if I hit a nerve, but I have been playing chaos a long time and from my personal experience with every edition with exception to the infamous 3.5 dex they have taken a massive hit. A chaos lord relegated to leading worthless spawn? Yea real nice material...

Currently the best options are all spawn, cultists, oblits and helldrakes. Yes still helldrakes. I already addressed my opinions on why the helldrake is good.

Personally, i don't like the units we were pigeon holed into needing to take. I do however love the fluff and the models which is why I simply advocated using another book that does an army better.

This isn't some great thread about inspired tactics either, it's a couple guys nerd raging over the loss of a FAQ'ing that should have never existed. A FAQ that was very much a crutch for Codex: Cultists Spawn Helldrakes

GoliothOnline wrote:
I laugh at all the loyalist and Xenos players who outright bitched at Chaos Players taking even a single Heldrake back in 6th Edition.

Going to a friendly tournament we would always see some scrubs and tools bringing 3 Tides or Knights claiming the Heldrake was a unit for bad players. Yet you see all these Tides and Knights? LOL So skilled in that Nova Charge broski.

Get real with this garbage. It's a bloody game. Everyone saying the Drake was the best flyer, was moronic. Simple. It had 1 weapon that you could easily mitigate the damage done by it, by simply spreading out. God forbid you didnt put your models into a Warhammer Fantasy Tray formation along with 50 other Fire Warriors then cry like a baby when your units got roasted to cinders because you expected MY ARMY to walk towards you. Get a grip.

The drake was fine. You wanna know what's broken? Drop Pods. Free immunity to scatter and mishaps? Oh okay, leme go grab my Dreadclaws and we'll see how YOU like having Chaotic Drop Po- Oh wait, the loyalists bitched about that too and it was removed LOL

Have an exalt.

And obsidian, disagree or not, the proof is glaring. Just take weapons options from the Space Marines and match them up against Chaos and you'll find there is absolutely no comparison. There is nothing in the CSM codex that can compete with SS/TH Loyalists. There is NOTHING in the codex that replaces Plasma Cannons except vehicle mounted plasma. Loyalists have Machine Spirits that increase a vehicles combat effectiveness; we have Daemon Engines that barely survive IF the dice like us at that time. NO CONTEST.

The Space Marines are golden child and the loyalists who run them aren't going to understand that until they start losing their codex the way Chaos just doesn't get one. How about this, loyalists? How pissed would you be if they took away YOUR chapter tactics? Ya'll don't have Legions anymore either, and more Chapters than anyone can shake a stick at, so why don't you lose YOUR TACTICS TOO? OH YOU'RE NOT GOING TO DO THAT? THEN SHUT UP ABOUT THE PROBLEMS OF A GROUP THAT YOU AREN'T APART OF AND DON'T UNDERSTAND IF YOU'RE JUST GOING TO TRY AND CONVINCE US THAT WE'RE WRONG. WE'RE NOT. THE CSM'DEX IS FUBAR AND LIKE I SAID, WHEN WE'RE NOT AROUND FOR LOYALISTS TO KICK, WHAT'RE YOU GOING TO DO THEN? FIGHT THE TAU? I'M SURE THAT'LL MAKE YA'LL FEEL BETTER, LIKE IT ALREADY HAS.

Anyone ever heard of the Tau gun line? The bane of everyones existence, right up there with Seer-Stars and the Flying Circus?

As Scarface said, "You need people like (us) around so that you can point and say 'That's the bad guy." Otherwise, you're feats and heroics count for NOTHING. GIVE US OUR DAMN ARMIES!!!

I think you need to double check the definition of trolling, friend. I could quote you back "sorry if I hit a nerve," but perhaps we both took offense where none was intended.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I think you need to double check the definition of trolling, friend. I could quote you back "sorry if I hit a nerve," but perhaps we both took offense where none was intended.

You mean much later on once you already trolled me?

Go back and read through. You were the guy who came out from the tall grass for a cheap shot. Your first post in the thread in fact.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I think you need to double check the definition of trolling, friend. I could quote you back "sorry if I hit a nerve," but perhaps we both took offense where none was intended.

You mean much later on once you already trolled me?

Go back and read through. You were the guy who came out from the tall grass for a cheap shot. Your first post in the thread in fact.

Alright man, take it as you will. I'm done with the mud slinging fest in your head, though.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Says the obvious Troll who a - Is quoting a childrens story about toys 2 - has Proverbs in their quote and III - Go away before I feed you to a bridge.

Yeah, that fun T word sure gets bandied around a lot. Obviously you didn't bother to look up Proverbs 18:2 so here it is:

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions.

Somewhat apt I think.

Thank you for making such a well thought out rebuttal to the idea of silly people raging about their toys.

"Go away" lol

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Says the obvious Troll who a - Is quoting a childrens story about toys 2 - has Proverbs in their quote and III - Go away before I feed you to a bridge.

Yeah, that fun T word sure gets bandied around a lot. Obviously you didn't bother to look up Proverbs 18:2 so here it is:

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions.

Somewhat apt I think.

Thank you for making such a well thought out rebuttal to the idea of silly people raging about their toys.

"Go away" lol

Sorry, but meme posting is typically the mark of a troll, or did I read the memo everyone else got wrong? Obvious troll is obvious? Didn't I feed you to a bridge? And no, I wasn't pointing out the proverb itself, but more the context from which it was taken. A 1.5k year old book (tops, per archaeological evidence) v. over 12,000 years of undiscovered human history, starting with Gobekli Tepi. Consequently, it's been proven that those first book writers I mentioned happen to destroy the second groups books who built things like Gobekli Tepi I mentioned before, which was grossly more abundant in its time. See: Library of Alexandria. Such is my understanding and airing, not of an opinion, but fact.

Keep story time and Toy Story for the appropriate discussions.

Let's go about this systematically:

Heldrake:
flamer: Took a nerf. Very narrow arc, but that means you'll be flying on and shooting, or flying on and vector striking something and shooting something near the back of the enemy's board. Still good for some broadsides or a devastator squad. This really sucks though. Should have been 180. HUGE nerf here.

Autocannon: Also pretty big nerf since you can't really get rear armor. Again, huge nerf.

Vector strikes, ground: HUGE nerf. AP2 means you can hit a 2+ armor save something or other, and it's good for taking out the last hull point of something, but really not something to rely on. Huge nerf, but this is along with all the other FMCs that could vector strike, so.... eh?

vector strikes, air targets: This is kind of a sidegrade. It does d3 hits, not d3+1, but they're AP2 - then again, the vehicle damage table got shifted one point up as well, so it's basically just as good at killing flying vehicles as before. It is slightly better against FMC.....on the off chance that someone's daemon prince rolled "armor save improves by 1" on their gift of mutation. Otherwise, we just lost an attack.

Survivability: People claim that the damage table is more forgiving. Not really. A weapon destroyed result still makes it useless [even more, since it can't rely on vectors], and there's more results now that shake it. It's possessed, but that's not a guarantee and snap firing means it can't shoot its flamer at all. However, in addition to the explodes result being shifted away to needing an Ap2 or better weapon, immobilized results will now cause it to crash on a 1 or 2. And what if it suffers two immobilized results? Is that 3 hull points for a crash and burn? Locked velocity used to be a different result. Now what happens?"

People also mention jinking - sure, if we decide we DON'T want to shoot the flamer in our next turn, we can jink for a 4+ save. That's not exactly ideal. Overall, its survivability is about the same as before. Except now people won't shoot it as much, as it's not nearly as deadly. I guess there's that.


I never ran 3 heldrakes, but now I'm debating running even one. I feel as though transports are going to become more prevalent this edition, meaning it'll take a little work to crack the enemy's eggs before you can cook the yolks. I wonder sometimes if the heldrake is going to spend more time in hover mode to try to coax the enemy into close combats, and spend its time skimming around to get those rear armor shots or good flamer hits, or just to line up its vector strikes for the closing turns of the game.


It's worth noting that the torrent rule allows the flamer template to be placed so that it goes out of line of sight, so as long as the narrow end is within your arc, the wide end can go anywhere. Now, models out of your LOS can't be wounded by it (regular wound allocation rules), but if you're looking at five space marines along your sight arc, and can place the template so it hits 7 that includes some that are outside of it, it just improved your odds of killing the ones you can see. Food for thought, as far as that's concerned.



As far as the chaos codex being worthless, I disagree. I've managed to win a GT with them, and the new smash rules leave walkers with a bit of an advantage in the multiple S10 attacks department. Since it's harder to kill vehicles now with non-Ap2/1 weapons, defilers can better take advantage of their 4 hull points. Taking a defiler with an allied soulgrinder and a few helbrutes or maulerfiends really gives you a fairly solid assault force that the enemy has to deal with. Granted we're pushing 600 points for this little brigade, but I think it would give enemies something significant to worry about.

Adapt and Overcome. Isn't that the mantra? I agree with everything your saying, and I think that's whats driving me mad. The Space Marines aren't putting up with this kind of crap are they? Something about Vendettas...what, they're now more like Chaos Forge World air support? Because Chaos Air Support sucks compared to the other armies.

This sounds stupid, but something that would make me happy as a fair compromise? Let our Heldrakes carry a bomb. Just one bomb and our single weapon with it's crappy firing arc. Hell, even take Vector Strike away until we can unload the bomb. Wouldn't bother me because we'd at least have one more weapon on our hands vs the 4 weapons that can be fired by fliers. Sounds stupid, but at least I'd believe GW was kind of thinking about Chaos somewhat.

Of course I say that and my favorite part of 6.5 ed is the Psychic phase which I'm hoping Sorcerers can use well. Of course that could be asking too much as well. Like giving us something besides duct tape bolters. -__-

Actually a ML3 sorcerer that does whatever he can to take lots and lots of witchfire powers can use his dice to cast power after power after power at the enemy. With a spell familiar, you can 1-dice a lv 1 power and reroll if you fail.

Now if the enemy has lots of dice to deny you, that kind of sucks. But you can make them choose between cancelling your shooting powers or cancelling your big buff powers. Start off the phase with a prescience on your massive unit of shooty cultists, which if they get the power off will unleash a storm of S3 shots at any available infantry (in addition to rerolling misses in cc), which the enemy will want to throw dice at to dispel (needing 6's). Then start casting witchfires.

Take a daemon prince, too. Why not?

Trasvi wrote:


While this means that you can't target FMC's with blast weapons (because snapshots) it is technically possible for Template and Blast weapons targeted at a different unit to scatter on to the FMC and hurt it, unlike for Flyers.

Or just use templates/blasts with Skyfire, then the blasts and templates are not snap firing. So one Crone roasting Baledrake thanks to a skyfire template.

Whoa wait a minute. If blasts/templates from a FMC or flyer work against a FMC then Be'Lekor can be slapped in the face with mind strike missiles from a GK storm raven. It's double perils per turn unless he casts invisibility on himself, but then the CSM player is just purchasing an invisible shrouding bubble for 350 points.

Keep the topic on track, please. There is no need to sidetrack discussion with repeated images, especially those insulting to others.

Oh well, I've no option but to lament. I'm a Noise Marine, so my laments kill people.

There's a little too much caffeine being consumed by participants ITT, the insults and the shouting are reminding me of 4chan.

The Heldrake has gone from 'too good' to 'good' which for me is a plus, because now I feel I can field them as allies to my Daemons and not get sideways looks and muttering!

Why shouldn't your Daemon army have it's own Fire Dragon? We're totally the army that would get that kind of thing!

... I mean sure, Eldar get Fire Dragons... that aren't dragons... and their ancient fantasy race equivalent had actual Fire Dragons... but still!!! We're Chaos! We deserve dragons!

This thread seems to have gotten out of hand rather quickly.

RULE #1 everyone - it isn't optional.

Thanks!

Kyutaru wrote:
Why shouldn't your Daemon army have it's own Fire Dragon? We're totally the army that would get that kind of thing!

... I mean sure, Eldar get Fire Dragons... that aren't dragons... and their ancient fantasy race equivalent had actual Fire Dragons... but still!!! We're Chaos! We deserve dragons!

I absolutely agree, but it is one of those situations where it is very hard to argue "fluff" or "I like the model" (which I genuinely do with the Heldrake, nobody believes me!) when the unit is so strong in game and belongs to a different faction.

Now, arguably, it isn't significantly better than anything from my own book I could field, which in turn makes me more comfortable about taking one or two and it not being something that ruins the game for my opponent.

So since a mod has now stepped in and is chosing what to edit and what not to, I'll do some editting of my own and ignore the Toy Story troll myself.

On that note, the Heldrake (I'll repeat) was not THAT GOOD. It was GOOD, but not nearly as good as (pick a flier) from the Imperium. Period. It had one weapon that, when knocked off, turned it into a sub par wrecking ball. I say sub-par because at str 7, you're not killing any Land Raiders.

Like all things Chaos, we only get things that COULD be good if X, but then we get something crippling like "can't draw LOS from gun barrel mouth" or "broken neck syndrome."

If anyone wants to argue this point further and isn't a CSM player in the first place, then I'd like some hard imperical evidence of your position.

Yes, we got IWND and 5++, both of which are not guaranteed to go off. So a Vendetta or w/e putting 10+ shots into the rear of a Heldrake is probably going to drop it, especially if it penetrates with something like, oh I don't know, a Twin-Linked Lazcannon? One good shot from something like that and there goes the best model in the CSM codex.

The Heldrake had exactly one good weapon that was gauranteed to come off on a Weapon Destroy, which is still possible on the new vehicle table, from pot shots or Skyfire.

SO THERE IS NO REASON TO NERF THIS UNIT. And the excuse "Well it was like that first, so really we're going back to the way it was-" ISN'T VALID. Obviously they changed it the first time for a reason, so changing it back is the equivalent of a child that can't make up its mind.

"Chaos players are upset they don't have a flier or anything that can fight fliers."

"Here is the Heldrake then."

"Well that is fine, except that it can't do it's job as well with the limited firing arc. No rear armor shots, ya'digg?"

"Ok, well let's change it and make it better then."

"Well we tried that, but now all of the other fliers are upset that they have to share their airspace and marines are upset because there is something that can beat them now."

"Well we can't let CSM players do that to our Spess Mahrins, now can we? Go back to the old rules."

I'm not impressed by back-and-forth wastefulness. Especially when it is backed more by a profit motive than by a business ethic.

 Alpharius wrote:
This thread seems to have gotten out of hand rather quickly.

RULE #1 everyone - it isn't optional.

Thanks!

Apparently this wasn't clear enough?

So, I'll be even more clear now - any additional Rule #1 violations in here will net the poster in question a suspension.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:


On that note, the Heldrake (I'll repeat) was not THAT GOOD. It was GOOD, but not nearly as good as (pick a flier) from the Imperium. Period. It had one weapon that, when knocked off, turned it into a sub par wrecking ball. I say sub-par because at str 7, you're not killing any Land Raiders.

Nephilim.

Like all things Chaos, we only get things that COULD be good if X, but then we get something crippling like "can't draw LOS from gun barrel mouth" or "broken neck syndrome."

Most fliers have limited fire arcs on some or all of their weapons, it is what makes it possible for non flying units and armies to handle them.

Yes, we got IWND and 5++, both of which are not guaranteed to go off. So a Vendetta or w/e putting 10+ shots into the rear of a Heldrake is probably going to drop it, especially if it penetrates with something like, oh I don't know, a Twin-Linked Lazcannon? One good shot from something like that and there goes the best model in the CSM codex.

The Heldrake had exactly one good weapon that was gauranteed to come off on a Weapon Destroy, which is still possible on the new vehicle table, from pot shots or Skyfire.

SO THERE IS NO REASON TO NERF THIS UNIT. And the excuse "Well it was like that first, so really we're going back to the way it was-" ISN'T VALID. Obviously they changed it the first time for a reason, so changing it back is the equivalent of a child that can't make up its mind.

"Chaos players are upset they don't have a flier or anything that can fight fliers."

"Here is the Heldrake then."

"Well that is fine, except that it can't do it's job as well with the limited firing arc. No rear armor shots, ya'digg?"

"Ok, well let's change it and make it better then."

"Well we tried that, but now all of the other fliers are upset that they have to share their airspace and marines are upset because there is something that can beat them now."

"Well we can't let CSM players do that to our Spess Mahrins, now can we? Go back to the old rules."

I'm not impressed by back-and-forth wastefulness. Especially when it is backed more by a profit motive than by a business ethic.

The Heldrake is almost as good against fliers as it was, and has had easy mode removed from its weapons system (unless some douche tries to play it RAW and argues it can't fire, but then you've got bigger issues if you're playing someone like this)

I see that it hurts more in a Codex where you already had limited strong units, but it still has a superlative weapon against the most common statline in the game, and superior durability to most other fliers, look at what it still is, not what it was.

Again, I don't understand how anyone can ignore the fact that this wasn't a nerf. They removed an ADDITIONAL ruling from a previous FAQ. If you are new to the game and bought the book and model you would never even know that once upon a time GW decided to make its hull mounting a turret for no rational reason other then to push sales.

Not a nerf. They removed an idiotic FAQ ruling no one ever asked for.

Storm ravens cost an arm and a leg and take up a precious heavy slot, talons are paper thin and fall out of the sky to stiff breeze. Neither carries enough ordnance to roast anything MEQ off the field in one go. Nor can either put ten shots up a turkey's tailpipe without the chaos player being very obliging.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

And obsidian, disagree or not, the proof is glaring. Just take weapons options from the Space Marines and match them up against Chaos and you'll find there is absolutely no comparison. There is nothing in theCSM codex that can compete with SS/TH Loyalists. There is NOTHING in the codex that replaces Plasma Cannons except vehicle mounted plasma. Loyalists have Machine Spirits that increase a vehicles combat effectiveness; we have Daemon Engines that barely survive IF the dice like us at that time. NO CONTEST. 

Missed this post.

Obliterators tote plasma cannons as an option. And very few loyalists take them even with access. And while you are correct on the hammer front, loyalists also don't have access to 2+ save suicide combo weapons or 31pt terminators with free power weapons, nor can we divvy out T 5, bonus invulnerable saves, or initiative bonuses. Our basic troops can't traipse around with 2 base attacks and more on the charge. We do not have MEQ slaying str 8 cover ignoring blast. We can't have FNP 5+ thrown around like candy.

So I'd say there's a contest to be had.

Worth mentioning that until the new book at least BA SR are FA, but valid point for GK and C:SM.

I could go on for days about how the CSM codex is inferior to the SM codex in every way. However, I realized a while ago that somebody who refuses to see this isn't really worth arguing with. It's extremely obvious with even a brief look-over.