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 herpguy wrote:
I could go on for days about how the CSM codex is inferior to the SM codex in every way. However, I realized a while ago that somebody who refuses to see this isn't really worth arguing with. It's extremely obvious with even a brief look-over.

Which is the only reason I suggested finding outside sources for your models. If you like the CSM book then I am happy for you. If your unhappy then just find a MEQ codex that does them justice, its not like there aren't 5 other marine books...oh wait... And with the good marines they can all allie as BB meaning if it takes 2 sources so be it. Now with come the appoc allies, demons aren't an excuse either since their idiot ruling makes joining them impossible and being BB almost moot.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
I could go on for days about how the CSM codex is inferior to the SM codex in every way. However, I realized a while ago that somebody who refuses to see this isn't really worth arguing with. It's extremely obvious with even a brief look-over.

Which is the only reason I suggested finding outside sources for your models. If you like the CSM book then I am happy for you. If your unhappy then just find a MEQ codex that does them justice, its not like there aren't 5 other marine books...oh wait... And with the good marines they can all allie as BB meaning if it takes 2 sources so be it. Now with come the appoc allies, demons aren't an excuse either since their idiot ruling makes joining them impossible and being BB almost moot.

Basically you are saying go and play SM? We want CSM. That is why we play the CSM book. If we wanted to play SM then we would BUT WE DONT. CANT YOU SEE THIS OR HAVE GW BRAINWASHED YOU INTO A HELPLESS LAPDOG OF THE EMPEROR?

LET THE GALAXY BURN

People do appreciate that netiquette dictates that caps = SHOUTING don't they?

Cause there's a lot going on ITT and it's giving me a virtual headache.

Personally, I think the Legion rules from the HH FW books would make a great basis for a CSM dex, just be respectful of the fluff and the stuff that isn't around in 40K any more, and there's some splendid, fluffy, effective but not cheesy options there.

 Chaos Rising wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
I could go on for days about how the CSM codex is inferior to the SM codex in every way. However, I realized a while ago that somebody who refuses to see this isn't really worth arguing with. It's extremely obvious with even a brief look-over.

Which is the only reason I suggested finding outside sources for your models. If you like the CSM book then I am happy for you. If your unhappy then just find a MEQ codex that does them justice, its not like there aren't 5 other marine books...oh wait... And with the good marines they can all allie as BB meaning if it takes 2 sources so be it. Now with come the appoc allies, demons aren't an excuse either since their idiot ruling makes joining them impossible and being BB almost moot.

Basically you are saying go and play SM? We want CSM. That is why we play the CSM book. If we wanted to play SM then we would BUT WE DONT. CANT YOU SEE THIS OR HAVE GW BRAINWASHED YOU INTO A HELPLESS LAPDOG OF THE EMPEROR?

LET THE GALAXY BURN

No basically I am saying play what ever you like. How is that such a hard concept? If you don't want to run out of a SM dex don't. I just don't understand the bitching if you don't choose to be proactive. Just because the fluff is different doesn't make the rules any less viable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:
People do appreciate that netiquette dictates that caps = SHOUTING don't they?

QFT

I can't believe how quick people are to jump down someones throat ITT.

I find it really interesting that in my area and the next big 40k town over play a ton of chaos without complaint and I've seen the book do well and beat most all armies without even taking 3 drakes. I personally don't see this as a crippling buff given that it still is an ap3 torrent that just now requires some thought to use. While this is ancedotal evidence, I do believe that chaos can hold is own against all but the most meta tourney builds.

Where are you finding the FAQ's?

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
Where are you finding the FAQ's?

Here. GW decided they were better off at the Black Library site for whatever reason.

 riverhawks32 wrote:
I find it really interesting that in my area and the next big 40k town over play a ton of chaos without complaint and I've scene the book do well and beat most all armies without even taking 3 drakes. I personally don't see this as a crippling buff given that it still is an ap3 torrent that just now requires some thought to use. While this is ancedotal evidence, I do believe that chaos can hold is own against all but the most meta tourney builds.

This. CSM can still hold their own without relying on Nurgle and pre-7th drakes. Helldrakes are still really good in my opinion.

The comments previously that Helldrakes could never be considered 'good' because they couldn't threaten Land Raiders is ridiculous, they're role is killing med-light infantry and AA with the vector strikes, as a bonus you can now threaten Riptides and other ground targets.

D

 evildrcheese wrote:

 riverhawks32 wrote:
I find it really interesting that in my area and the next big 40k town over play a ton of chaos without complaint and I've scene the book do well and beat most all armies without even taking 3 drakes. I personally don't see this as a crippling buff given that it still is an ap3 torrent that just now requires some thought to use. While this is ancedotal evidence, I do believe that chaos can hold is own against all but the most meta tourney builds.

This. CSM can still hold their own without relying on Nurgle and pre-7th drakes. Helldrakes are still really good in my opinion.

The comments previously that Helldrakes could never be considered 'good' because they couldn't threaten Land Raiders is ridiculous, they're role is killing med-light infantry and AA with the vector strikes, as a bonus you can now threaten Riptides and other ground targets.

D

I mentioned Land Raiders, and I said they weren't "THAT" good. Yes, the Heldrake was good, hands down. It is a harrassing unit. It's supposed to Vector Vehicles (str 7) and then eat the infantry inside with the Baleflamer (which could also hurt Rhinos). If you didn't go that way, then the Hades Autocannon was good for chasing out enemy fliers. BUT THAT'S REALLY IT. It is a support flier to a T since it a) doesn't transport and b) doesn't put enough damage on the ground to be a real hunter. Since that is its rule and GW has to handicap the Heldrake some how, the first handicap was limiting the vehicles it could knock over (Land Raiders, because Loyalists use them and CSM's hate them). Now we have Broken-Neck Syndrome to let loyalists on the ground out maneuver a flier. And that's really where I come back to with this. The Heldrake FAQ did more to help the damn Loyalist armies than it did anyone else, with the exception of Orks who REALLY hate the Baleflamer. And this seems to be a recurring motif. FAQ = Balance AGAINST Space Marines. Because Space Marines are number 1, not only in game but in sales, which is where these implementations really come from. After all, GW is a business out for money.

If Chaos sold better, or they just didn't hate CSM's, then things would probably be different. But they are the way they are for a reason.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

Was the Heldrake really kicking peoples ass THAT bad? Did it occur to anyone that the Heldrake was all Chaos had to fight fliers and now it can't do that as well anymore?

Yes, it was that bad.

"No dude that had not occurred to us"

I Guess i just have to sell my army n call it quits. I was losing all the time bc i only ever had 1 drake. This isnt the first time gw destroyed my army. I use to rock double defilers n 3 squads of melta chosens. That became garbage as they nerfed deffy to sell fiendy. I would rather keep chosen as non troops than give up infilitrate.

The local gw closed down 5 years ago. The next closest by 2 towns away closed a year ago. The next gw is over 30 miles away. I wont be seeing any more action anyways. Now is the right time to give up.

So many people gave me gripe over just 1 drake as i watch them focus everything at it doa. And it such that ig/am are come the apocalypse allies. That makes no sense fluff wise because ig/am are the most susceptible to chaos.
And i dont understand this battle forge and combined arms detachments.

Filch, my closest FLGS is 90 miles away. Fret not. You're BB w the new hotness (daemons). Take my advice, don't sell. Just take a breath and a break.

 doktor_g wrote:
Filch, my closest FLGS is 90 miles away. Fret not. You're BB w the new hotness (daemons). Take my advice, don't sell. Just take a breath and a break.

I'm with Filch on this one. Aside from the fact that the GW near by is full of kids who all groan when you show them a Heldrake (but field 3 Riptides and all of the wonderful abuse I come to expect from my enemies) and the fact that I can't even walk into a smaller shop and say "Chaos" without getting a similar reaction? Wtf for? I'm not wasting my money just so a bunch of people can bitch about their Space Marines having to fight. It's stupid and it makes a mockery of the entire culture.

No wonder so many people are making the exodus from GW! I'm about to do it too!! And I don't freaking want too!!! I just want my damn CSM's. ><

Like I said, maybe GW and the Loyalist Fanboys will get it once there is no one but other loyalists and Tau/Dar to fight. Then they can finally start bitching at each other for a change instead of ganging up on the bottom of the barrel just so they don't have to sit there for a turn.

Side note though: You just contributed to the exodus with your assesment "BB with Daemons (and nothing else)." WE DON'T WANT DAEMONS. WE WANT CHAOS SPACE MARINES! <---speaking for some and not necessarily Filch.

No need to yell. Lol. I still will get owned by CSM regardless of your nerf. 7th ED makes it rough on us green skins. I mean d6 hits with no save on our boys in wagons and trucks? I mean... Dang. It's still a torrent.... And can't y'all still vector strike (with a vehicle) with just the wing tip rather than the base? This thing is still bad ass. I groan when I'm across the table from you folks because I want to beat you! I know that the triple drakes make it nigh impossible. I still play though. Same vs the trip tides. Or Draigo Dreadknight spam. I sigh and put my little Boyz back in their box turn by turn.

I hope CSM get a 7E book that is at least fluffy and balanced. Personally, I'm too invested in 40k to walk away, as I'm here for the fluff.

@doktor_g On the bright side Orks will be getting there new codex soon. Hopefully it will give orks that boost they need.

 Filch wrote:
I I use to rock double defilers n 3 squads of melta chosens. That became garbage as they nerfed deffy to sell fiendy.

Defilers have 4 hull points and an invulnerable save. In this edition of vehicle damage, they're pretty far from garbage.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Filch wrote:
I I use to rock double defilers n 3 squads of melta chosens. That became garbage as they nerfed deffy to sell fiendy.

Defilers have 4 hull points and an invulnerable save. In this edition of vehicle damage, they're pretty far from garbage.

No, they're garbage. AV12 is bad, 4hp means nothing when the meta is about glancing av12 to death. The battlecannon limits the rest of the defiler. Getting into combat defeats the point of a battlecannon, and a maulerfiend would do as well or better, for fewer points. A LRBT is ~50 points cheaper at AV14 front 3hp. I'd take a Russ over a defiler any day, CTA or not.

Defiler is the epitome of the CSM Codex: it looks cool and has some neat qualities, but it tries to be good at several wildly differing things without succeeding in any of them and is significantly overpriced.

^ all of this.

A defiler is an expensive Maulerfiend Forgefiend hybrid bastard child. It has upgrades to it for no reason and is over costed to the point it barely sees table time. I have 3. I would know. I converted / Magnetized them to fulfill the roles of Soul Grinders now and threw the top halves into a bin I've dubbed "Void of Light" Because those bloody things will never see the light of day again. That is, unless they remove the TL Heavy Bolter / reaper and Heavy Flamer as they never see use and simply add points to an already grossly over costed model.

while the Heldrake in and of itself was in need of this change, the problem was that it basically acted as a giant crutch for the CSM book as a whole.

So this is a change the unit needed, it does negatively effect the viability of CSM armies in a way that wasn't exactly needed.

 erick99 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Filch wrote:
I I use to rock double defilers n 3 squads of melta chosens. That became garbage as they nerfed deffy to sell fiendy.

Defilers have 4 hull points and an invulnerable save. In this edition of vehicle damage, they're pretty far from garbage.

No, they're garbage. AV12 is bad, 4hp means nothing when the meta is about glancing av12 to death. The battlecannon limits the rest of the defiler. Getting into combat defeats the point of a battlecannon, and a maulerfiend would do as well or better, for fewer points. A LRBT is ~50 points cheaper at AV14 front 3hp. I'd take a Russ over a defiler any day, CTA or not.

I agree. The Defiler isn't a 200pt unit. It's got a large amount of mutually exclusive weapons that it can't make effective simultaneous use of (it's got a long range ordnance weapon and lots of CC punch with crappy WS and Init, and some random other weaponry). On top of that, it costs significantly more than other units with the same guns or similar CC capability, while being either notably easier to kill (vs something like a 150pt Leman Russ with a battlecannon) or not particularly harder (e.g. vs a 100pt Helbrute or 125pt Maulerfiend)

Ultimately, it's 4HP, 5+ invul, and IWND merely make it roughly as hard to kill as it was in 5E, where it was 25% fewer points and still nobody was impressed with it

 Vaktathi wrote:
while the Heldrake in and of itself was in need of this change, the problem was that it basically acted as a giant crutch for the CSM book as a whole.

So this is a change the unit needed, it does negatively effect the viability of CSM armies in a way that wasn't exactly needed.

Would you agree that the biggest problem that needed fixing was Heldrakes shooting backwards on units it VS'd? Because then we can say 180* arc and everyone gets over this overnight.

so I dragged out the Heldrake model just now to check out what its threat area is now, and picked up a couple ideas here.

1.) Models need only be under the template to be hit, so the vertical 45' arc shouldn't be that much concern. The template itself doesn't need to be touching the models it seems.

And 2.) Maybe now it will be wiser to steer our Drakes from the direction of nose first, with the base on a slant as opposed to the direction the models base points us with that awful neck bend. Then just rotate/pivot from the point of the nose.

Follow your nose, wherever it goes" is my new Heldrake catchphrase.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
so I dragged out the Heldrake model just now to check out what its threat area is now, and picked up a couple ideas here.

1.) Models need only be under the template to be hit, so the vertical 45' arc shouldn't be that much concern. The template itself doesn't need to be touching the models it seems.

And 2.) Maybe now it will be wiser to steer our Drakes from the direction of nose first, with the base on a slant as opposed to the direction the models base points us with that awful neck bend. Then just rotate/pivot from the point of the nose.

Follow your nose, wherever it goes" is my new Heldrake catchphrase.

This sounds like Vector Dancer might be a good addition to the Heldrake, since I always kind of figured it (being a Dragon with fire breath and all) to be something that more or less prowls the map in a circle scorching Custer and his Last Stand. Probably way off base, but thought it might be a suggestion to get over this crap firing arc and the prospect of being outmanuevered as soon as the bird hits the board.

That would be a good fix, RWA.

I never bought a Heldrake but might actually get one for my Word Bearers. It will be fun incorporating the flame job on that huge thing!

To EBay!

Its a new edition, take time to re-open the book instead of looking at one change in the context of 6th edition.

Re-look at units and options, look at the missions, look at the changes to scoring and what that opens up. Not taking three heldrakes? Well look at the fast attack options again.

Personally I am glad its back to what it was when I bought it. Now I feel like I can play the two I have again. I am also excited to try and get some maulerfiends and throw them on the table now. With the nerf to smash a lot of walkers are getting new life.

I played 3 games on a 1500 pts. tournament yesterday. Full 7th Edition with SA and IA allowed.

Throughout most of all three games, I was using the Heldrake as a Fast Skimmer (Hover Mode). It's performed well in all three games, and has survived all three games. That included fighting against 2 mild Daemon Factory lists. It can easily clear and grab distant objectives.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:


Side note though: You just contributed to the exodus with your assesment "BB with Daemons (and nothing else)." WE DON'T WANT DAEMONS. WE WANT CHAOS SPACE MARINES! <---speaking for some and not necessarily Filch.

And yet you're comparing your Codex to the entire Imperium? That's some pretty intense cognitive dissonance going on there.

You'll also note that there's no one other than you referring to the "other side" as "fanboys".

Really interesting how some guys think, the Helldrake was okay how it was.

It was and still is a highly mobile torrent-flamer-template that kills nearly everything that has no invulnerable save or 2+ armor. Even if you spread your units rigth it will hit a lot due to torrent. I really dont understand the complaints. Its like it was with the Vendetta where a 20 Point increase and decreased transport capacity turned a unit from OP to utterly crap....

I really have sympathies for chaos players complaining about their overall bad Codex, buts its no excuse for an obvious OP unit.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:


Side note though: You just contributed to the exodus with your assesment "BB with Daemons (and nothing else)." WE DON'T WANT DAEMONS. WE WANT CHAOS SPACE MARINES! <---speaking for some and not necessarily Filch.

And yet you're comparing your Codex to the entire Imperium? That's some pretty intense cognitive dissonance going on there.

You'll also note that there's no one other than you referring to the "other side" as "fanboys".

Would the context sound better if I called myself a "Chaos fanboy?" Because I know I am. And I have a problem with people who can't recognize traits about themselves and would get defensive about it, but then I guess this comes to "pot calling the kettle black" and I'm not about to play that stupid semantics game.

And there is nothing dissonance about comparing the Chaos Marines to their Loyalists Counterparts since that is where the damn Chaos Marines started. There really isn't a whole lot of difference between the Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, yet for some reason we treat them both like their as different as Black and White. They're not. Chaos Space Marines steal Space Marine tech ALL THE TIME. We're wearing the same damn armor. We have the same standard gun. The difference is our guns have mouths and our armor fuses to our skin, while the Loyalists apparently just call up Mars and say "Hey, we need you to make a new gun for us."

Wtf is the Dark Mechanicum doing then?

Chaos Lord: "Yeah hi, I need you to make some Daemon Hammers for our terminators, and if you could, would you please make a shield for them too?"
Dark Mechanicum: "NO! WE'RE BUSY PUTTING PLASMA CANNONS ON VEHICLES, K'THX!"
Chaos Lord: "Wuh-wait! Can you put some of those plasma cannons on our havocs?"
Dark Mechanicum: "NO! WE'RE BUSY PUTTING A HADES AUTOCANNON ON THE HELDRAKE NOW. TRY AGAIN LATER PLEASE!"
Chaos Lord: "Well wtf?! Can we get the Heldrake then?!"
Dark Mechanicum: "SORRY NO! WE BROKE IT'S NECK ON ACCIDENT AND ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO FIX THAT. BAI-BAI NAO!! AND DON'T YOU DARE ASK US ABOUT RAZORBACKS OR MISSILES!!! WE DON'T HAVE THE TIME FOR THAT EVEN THOUGH THE ORKS STUCK GROTS IN ROCKETS AND CALLED THEM "MISSILES"."
Chaos Lord: "Whoa! The Orks pilot their missiles with grots? WHY CAN'T WE DO THAT WITH DAEMONS?!!"
Dark Mechanicum: "SORRY!! -krrzzk- BAD CONNECTION!!! -Krrrrzzkk- THINK THERE IS A DROP POD COMING IN NOW. CAN'T HEAR YOU! -Krrrrzzkkk-"
Chaos Lord: "WHERE DID YOU GET A DROP POD FROM?! WTF IS GOING ON HERE!!!"
Dark Mechanicum: "GOOD LUCK!"

Chaos = Worst Customer Service Department Ever.

-Disclaimer: This was a dramatization and in some ways may reflect on the reality of the game as a whole. Any relation to persons living or dead are tragic, and you should shoot yourself in the foot. Probably will feel better than realizing that Chaos apparently has no innovative properties where technology is concerned, cuz demons and magic should be enough...like Dino-bots.

So the Chaos faction is Chaotic.