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They broke the neck of our beloved Heldrake?!

Ok, so the Baleflamers (and Hades Autocannons) are now considered Hull-mounted and vague reference to 45/45 degree arcs (horizontal and vertical). However, the example they are citing is the Leman Russ and from it's mounting it is further constricted by the extension of its own treads on the left and right. Now maybe this is just being argumentative because I'm upset about the Heldrakes new 'broken-neck' syndrome but, the weapon mounts in the mouth and isn't constricted the same way as the demonstrated model.

My question is, does the Heldrake then have a 180/180 degree arc from the neck? Or since the roof and jaw of the Heldrakes mouth are obstacles, it can shoot 180* horizontal and 45*vertical now?

And all because Heldrakes were letting Chaos win a few more battles. FOR SHAME, GAMES WORKSHOP! For shame...

...I have to go bury my turkey now.

So, wait.

Did people consider the Heldrake to be garbage before it was FAQ'd to have turret-mounted weapons?

A broken unit is less broken.

I cannot summon any sympathy for you, and CSM is one of my main armies.

The heldrake was OP before. It got put back right where it should be, same as the vendetta. Though it's no longer broken, it is still a good unit. I just wouldn't go around running 3 of them.

Hull-mounted means 45/45 degree shooting arcs. 180 firing arcs are for most sponsoon-mounted guns, which the baleflamer/hades auto clearly is not.

No, unfortunately. The Leman Russ' hull-mounted weapon is only restricted by being hull-mounted. For further clarification, the 6th edition rulebook says "assume all hull-mounted weapons have a 45-degree firing arc".

Remember that you can pivot the template 90 degrees, though.

Good to know. And I never considered the Heldrake to be any more OP than many Loyalist fliers out there, or any flier with the ability to transport as well. Or Loyalist drop pods that don't mishap.

Chaos doesn't get a lot of its own, and I felt like the Heldrake was one of those things most unique to CSM. Perhaps I'm wrong though. -shrug-

It was our crutch. It's still okay with the baleflamer, but this makes the autocannon basically useless. With the nerf to Vector Strikes as well, the old "Vector Strike a flyer or other vehicle then autocannon its rear armour" tactic is completely gone. Combine this with Chaos/IG being Come the Apocalypse, the standard Chaos flyers (Heldrake and Vendetta) are out of action.

I've been planning to convert a Storm Raven (we don't get those either) into a Storm Eagle/Fire Raptor for a long time, and this only gives me more incentive. It's a shame that people still feel like FW units are optional (and evil), though, so half the time I'll probably not get to use it.

What's funny is that the Crimson Hunter recently caught my eye. I'd had a fledgling Eldar collection for years, but I promised myself I'm not allowed an Eldar army (or an Imperial Knight) until my Chaos are all assembled and painted. Anyway, I ignored the Hunter upon its release. It never really seemed interesting, but I realised that the model is actually really pretty and - shockingly, for something in 40k - looks like an actual aircraft. I want one.

EDIT: I really like planes.

I have a fierce weakness for the Hell Blade and Hell Talon fighters and bombers from Forge World. I started the road to corruption from DoW (all the way to Soul Storm) and the Hell Talon was my jamz. Like you said though, FW is an optional (and evil) force. Sucks...

Edit: Even those two flyers don't seem to quiet stack up to other Loyalist counterparts though. My biggest example is the fact that fliers are supposed to be able to deploy 4 weapon systems in one go, but there doesn't seem to be a single Chaos flyer capable of doing that.

And how the hell does IG become "Come the Apocalypse" for Chaos? ISN'T THAT WHERE OUR CULTISTS COME FROM?! XD

All this because Chaos players crushed Imperial Forces in the global campaign for Cadia. Someone's a sore loser. I guess the Thunderfire Cannons, Baneblades v1-15, Grav Guns and Chapter Tactics just weren't enough to keep the Heldrakes down. Hell, they've even got these damn Knights now! Because the Imperium needed Titans without going to Forge World to get them.

Can't even hide the bias anymore.

The Storm Eagle and Fire Raptor are standard Chaos fare - lose PotMS, drop a bunch of points. This is a benefit to the Fire Raptor in particular, because the turrets are independent anyway and don't need PotMS. Chaos Fire Raptors also get Reaper autocannon batteries, which Loyalists only get in 30k.

I have not heard of these units. Are they about to come out or is this Forge World? -digging around now-

Storm Eagles, Fire Raptors, Hell Talons and Hell Blades are all FW models

I still think that mr. Drake is a bit too strong. The torrent weapon rule means that the limited arc of fire is not so much of an issue.

It got a well deserved nerf.

Live with it.

If your army revolved around a strategy where you spammed them, then I have little sympathy towards the belly aching a lot of Chaos have.

We have nothing, and then the one thing we get that is worth a crap gets nerfed and everyone goes "Serves'em right?"

Seriously? Wth did Chaos ever do to some of you guys? This is like if Space Marine fliers only had two weapons, no bombs or missiles, and no transports.

"ABOUT TIME!" and then the loyalists go "Bu-bu-bu-bu-!"

Was the Heldrake really kicking peoples ass THAT bad? Did it occur to anyone that the Heldrake was all Chaos had to fight fliers and now it can't do that as well anymore?

No, I never flew a squad of Heldrakes, nor would I want to. One is good enough and I'd love a second but I know what that looks like. Meanwhile, we've got Buff Commanders who can nuke the ground, the sky, and give themselves saves and use plasma that doesn't explode, yet no one is crying foul over the damn Riptide and I don't see it having it's legs being blown off.

So I'll ask again, was the Heldrake really that bad? 1 weapon + VS and then Daemon stuff? Is this really worse than say Kairos?

I don't understand where this Heldrake hatred is coming from. ;___;

And as for the Torrent Weapon rule, it actually is more limited. I was trying to figure this out the other day, and by my calculations you have to start your template in the arc, but then you can never point the template any which way but forward at that point. You could try sideways, but you're still extremely limited in where that template falls now. Is that the problem? The damn Baleflamer? Because now it sounds like a bunch of Space Marines are crying about how crappy their armor is now. Still not a reason to take out the only damn thing Chaos had going for it. :\

You do realize that with the new 7th ed. rules you can ally with IG/AM, right? Traitor Guard, while not optimal, it is legal.

 AdeptSister wrote:
You do realize that with the new 7th ed. rules you can ally with IG/AM, right? Traitor Guard, while not optimal, it is legal.

As seen in another thread, WHY IS EVERYONES SOLUTION TO A SCREWED UP CHAOS CODEX TO ALLY OR BE SOMEONE ELSE!!!? I DON'T WANT TO BE SOMEONE ELSE! I WANT TO BE FREAKING CHAOS SPACE MARINES!!

Because of this attitude that CSM players should just shut up and be happy being bottom tier 24/7 is going to make Chaos disappear and THEN what? Hell, as seen with just 7th ed coming out, Heldrake sales TANKED because GW couldn't stop screwing with us! Wonder what that looks like everywhere else?

On a side note, you players who are just peachy about the lament of CSM players: Will you be just as happy when those players say "DEUCES" and you're left with nothing but other Space Marines to play against?

Think about that for a second. Would you rather have a decent rival or would you rather keep fighting the same jack ass good guys over and over again because you've shamed the antithesis so badly that they CANNOT exist? Simply put: What is a world without Bad Guys? Stupid, that's what. (In terms of fantasy based gaming and things of the sort. Obviously we don't need more bad guys in the real world making things stupid. Got more than we know what to do with as is.)

And yeah, we can ally with "Traitor Legion" as "Come the Apocalypse." Give me a friggin break. One more slap in the face to Chaos players who can't even pretend to re-enact what the damn Black Library publishes. And then add further insult to injury with a statement "Forge the Narrative!"

Oh you mean the one where CSM's are set up to always lose? Yeah, I'd love that narrative. Such a great story. Explains why the only CSM book I could find was Treacheries of the Space Marines.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:


Was the Heldrake really kicking peoples ass THAT bad? Did it occur to anyone that the Heldrake was all Chaos had to fight fliers and now it can't do that as well anymore?
. :\

Yes, it was...and it is still good against flyers (the new vector strike nerf is against non flyers)

You're slower than an obese great unclean one in molasses on a cold day with cement tied to his feet to this one.

OK. But I trying to understand your anger. The 360 degree shooting was a change in the original FAQ. It was addition to the codex. Now they changed it back to the original reading. It's still a great Flyer. It even got better due to improved jink save (The built in 5++ works for most occasions) and the new vehicle chart. One shotting it is much rarer and it will be able to use IWND more often.

It seems like you gained more than you lost.

Don't feed the trolls.

Seriously though, the chaos codex is pointless now. I use all my chaos models with imperial books. The last excuse I had for running chaos were obliterators. Now Centurions fill that void.
Want to play Nurgle? Iron hands does it better.
Khorne? Use space wolves, blood Angles or Black templars.
Iron warriors? Imp Fists
Night lords? Ravenm Guard or BA
Tzeentch? Grey Knights
Slaanesh? White scars
Black Legion? Ultra Marines
Word Bearors? Salamander/ultras

There is zero reason to kneecap yourself using that lemon of a book.

PS the Chaos book has only ever been done well ONCE... I wouldn't wait for GW... Just make the rules set work for you.

I made a sweet IW army using the space marine book. I have a storm talon thats a helicopter conversion and I use a drop podding decimator as an iron clad... Also nothing is more IW then thunderfire canons and centurions...

Kain wrote:You're slower than an obese great unclean one in molasses on a cold day with cement tied to his feet to this one.

I...I don't understand. It might have something to do with that arrow to the knee.

AdeptSister wrote:OK. But I trying to understand your anger. The 360 degree shooting was a change in the original FAQ. It was addition to the codex. Now they changed it back to the original reading. It's still a great Flyer. It even got better due to improved jink save (The built in 5++ works for most occasions) and the new vehicle chart. One shotting it is much rarer and it will be able to use IWND more often.

It seems like you gained more than you lost.

Fair enough. Survivability increased, and the Heldrake was already very survivable. I had forgotten about the new vehicle chart. That is pretty sweet for fliers and I believe the Heldrake rocks 3.

Trying to reach the Acceptance stage of Grief..

Aside from the fact it completely doesn't look right on the Heldrake in the first place, I think the limitation that puts on the Hades Autocannon is pretty bad. Getting rear shots is going to be nigh impossible in some cases. I think I would be happier with the Baleflamer along getting hung at 45-180 so it can still shoot sideways and not backwards and the autocannon keeping its 360, especially against enemy fliers. That's where it's going to hurt the most.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

Fair enough. Survivability increased, and the Heldrake was already very survivable. I had forgotten about the new vehicle chart. That is pretty sweet for fliers and I believe the Heldrake rocks 3.

Trying to reach the Acceptance stage of Grief..

Aside from the fact it completely doesn't look right on the Heldrake in the first place, I think the limitation that puts on the Hades Autocannon is pretty bad. Getting rear shots is going to be nigh impossible in some cases. I think I would be happier with the Baleflamer along getting hung at 45-180 so it can still shoot sideways and not backwards and the autocannon keeping its 360, especially against enemy fliers. That's where it's going to hurt the most.

Can't say I ever say anyone running the hadesdrake. The new chart is going to make it a royal pain to kill. Though if you want a codex to gripe about check out the nids again. We still don't get the love: vehicle charts only hurt us, no new psycher tables, still only have CTA allies, FMC's are vulnerable to skyfire blasts and templates (so baledrakes can roast them), Smash took a nerf, Vector strike nerf against ground targets hurts, Cover for the MC's got worse, and now we have to deal with Super Heavies and no good counters in the base codex.

barnowl wrote:
FMC's are vulnerable to skyfire blasts and templates (so baledrakes can roast them)

Wait, what?

 SarisKhan wrote:

barnowl wrote:
FMC's are vulnerable to skyfire blasts and templates (so baledrakes can roast them)

Wait, what?

Yuppers. Seems Flyers are immune but that line was left of the FMC rules.

Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.

Versus this

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap
Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule). Template and Blast
weapons, and any other attacks that don’t roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.

Well, this implies that my Heldrake can vomit flames at my friend's Flying Hive Tyrant even when it's Swooping...

*evil laughter*

This nerf is frigging ridiculous. We have one good unique unit in the codex and GW take and ruin it. Chaos Space Marines has never been competitive but with helldrakes I thought that might change. And it did for a while but now CSM is dead again. My favourite tactic of pop tank and roast the innards are gone and now the only thing that remained to sustain the hellturkey is nerfed as well! Seriously GW? Are you obsesed with killing the Chaos players? And come the apocalypse with guard? Right after I bought the codex and built my army to work with my chaos marines you crush it under your boot. Thabks a lot you [see forum posting rules] and games worjshop. You have killed my army.

Makes total sense that a flying dragon monster can spit flames at other flyers. And skyfire + blast templates should work against all flyers, not just fmc's. Anti-air weaponry that fires explosive rounds has been a thing for a pretty long time.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Don't feed the trolls.

Seriously though, the chaos codex is pointless now. I use all my chaos models with imperial books. The last excuse I had for running chaos were obliterators. Now Centurions fill that void.
Obliterators are a swiss army knife of guns that can DS and tote invul saves. Centurions get Grav or Las. So you're either a tank/MC hunter, or you tack on MEQ/TEQ to that list and slice your range in half.

Want to play Nurgle? Iron hands does it better.
Good one chap. Let me know when my marines become T5 and can take double specials while toting poisoned knives for punching down MCs on top of a 5+ FNP.

Khorne? Use space wolves, blood Angles or Black templars.
Black Templars get nothing near the toolset of Chaos. Don't even.

Iron warriors? Imp Fists
This one's true.

Night lords? Ravenm Guard or BA
Also true.

Tzeentch? Grey Knights
I... ok, mechanically, maybe, I guess? Not anymore under the FAQ for GK though.

Slaanesh? White scars
Very different beasts. Very. Scars don't have cover ignoring, don't have higher initiatives, and don't have access to FNP.

Black Legion? Ultra Marines
Smurfs rely on tac marines, the red headed stepchild of the Codex: SM troop choices. Meanwhile, four Maulerfiends or Drakes.

Word Bearors? Salamander/ultras
I see zero correlation between the two. But I guess it's true, because Word Bearers got as much treatment as Night Lords. That is, zero.

There is zero reason to kneecap yourself using that lemon of a book.

PS the Chaos book has only ever been done well ONCE... I wouldn't wait for GW... Just make the rules set work for you.

I made a sweet IW army using the space marine book. I have a storm talon thats a helicopter conversion and I use a drop podding decimator as an iron clad... Also nothing is more IW then thunderfire canons and centurions...

Slow down. Slow waaaaay down. Chaos dex isn't in the best of places, but you're reeeeeeaaaally stretching for some of these. As in, most of these. The biggest drawbacks to the Chaos book are point costs and some silly fluff rules that shoot you in the foot. But let's chill out, because it's not armageddon because the turkey forget how to turn its head. It's still the flier that will roast anything MEQ or worse while never having to jink and regenerating hull points while clawing the eyes out of other fliers. It just can't do it 360 degrees anymore. The thing was taken before that was even ruled in, and it'll be taken after. It's still GOOD. It's simply not THE BEST.

And for the record, people DO complain about Tau Buffmanders and Riptides. They just forgot about them for a time after Eldar took the wheel and started smashing up everything else until they butted heads with a Circus list.

Sorry those that had visions of roasting flyers with Skyfire Baleflamers, the Hard To Hit rule specifically says that blast, template and weapons that do not roll to hit cannot target zooming flyers.

One assumes for FMCS too, but I haven't checked.

FMC's entry lacks the specification of no templates, blasts and other attacks that don't roll to hit. Only that it has to be snapshots unless the model or weapon has skyfire

baledrake does technically have skyfire.