Alright guys. The Rune Priest got nerfed, HARD. Here is the link to the Space Wolves 7th edition FAQ:

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/Space_Wolves_v1.0_May14.pdf

Personally, I feel like this is not a good move. What was the ultimate f you to psykers is now gone. I would have loved to drop a drop pod with a couple of these bad boys in on my opponents Daemon psyker bubble. Especially with the new allies chart, it would have made for a good anti psychic defense. Unfortunately, not only I, but everyone else will also miss out on this. Now I also question, what do SW have at all now? There is no more JOTWW either. So what do you think? Should the RP have been left like it was? Was this nerf necessary? Or could it have been good to balance out the psyker based meta that is possibly arising now? Let me know with your comments and please vote above. Thanks.

Considering that after the nerf to psychic hoods it was by far the most powerful psychic defense in the game for zero cost increase and for no rational reason, I'm fine without it turned out, and, aside from a couple of powers (invisibility and summoning spells) there wasn't anything that warranted such a powerful counter, especially for armies that only brought light or moderate psychic support. It was simply a relic of 5th edition that hadn't yet been brought in line with newer mechanics.

Nobody is going to shed too many tears for JotWW either.

Your post isn't a poll, there's nowhere to vote.

But... GW needs to decide (and apparently has) on what Rune Priests are. In previous editions of the game, they were Druids, worshipping the "natural forces" of Fenris and being what was basically sorcerers while also, out of the other side of their mouths, gakking on the Thousand Sons for doing what is basically the exact same thing.

Now? Now they are the Librarians with funny names that they always should have been, unless you really want your Wolves to be uber-hypocrites. If you like your SW to be the good guys in the fight against the 1KS, then you gotta have RP who are just Librarians under a different name. None of this nature-worshipping, Viking Druid BS, because that's sorcery and should get Fenris burned to a cinder for blasphemy.

Mephiston would like to speak to you for a moment.

Bad comparison I know but I feel your pain. Losing codex powers sucks hard, but I've honestly kind of enjoyed using the tables...for now.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Alright guys. The Rune Priest got nerfed, HARD. Here is the link to the Space Wolves 7th edition FAQ:

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/Space_Wolves_v1.0_May14.pdf

Personally, I feel like this is not a good move. What was the ultimate f you to psykers is now gone. I would have loved to drop a drop pod with a couple of these bad boys in on my opponents Daemon psyker bubble. Especially with the new allies chart, it would have made for a good anti psychic defense. Unfortunately, not only I, but everyone else will also miss out on this. Now I also question, what do SW have at all now? There is no more JOTWW either. So what do you think? Should the RP have been left like it was? Was this nerf necessary? Or could it have been good to balance out the psyker based meta that is possibly arising now? Let me know with your comments and please vote above. Thanks.

That would have been 200+ points a piece that you would have dropped on your enemy deployment zone that would have died with out achieving anything.

Yes, it should have been nerfed. It was clearly a 5th edition relic that didn't fit GW's new concept for psykers (specifically, making it much harder to shut them down), and everyone with any sense knew that it was going to disappear along with all the other 5th edition psychic defense. The only reason it wasn't already nerfed was that SW didn't get a 6th edition codex, so this is just a case of GW deciding not to wait until the next codex to update it.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yes, it should have been nerfed. It was clearly a 5th edition relic that didn't fit GW's new concept for psykers (specifically, making it much harder to shut them down), and everyone with any sense knew that it was going to disappear along with all the other 5th edition psychic defense. The only reason it wasn't already nerfed was that SW didn't get a 6th edition codex, so this is just a case of GW deciding not to wait until the next codex to update it.

So what about BA? I'm not totally disagreeing with you, but I do share the plight. Don't get me wrong, SW fared far better in 6th than BA but you can't deny both of them were hit pretty hard in specific areas. It took away an important edge, however insignificant, away from armies already struggling.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Considering that after the nerf to psychic hoods it was by far the most powerful psychic defense in the game for zero cost increase and for no rational reason, I'm fine without it turned out, and, aside from a couple of powers (invisibility and summoning spells) there wasn't anything that warranted such a powerful counter, especially for armies that only brought light or moderate psychic support. It was simply a relic of 5th edition that hadn't yet been brought in line with newer mechanics.

Nobody is going to shed too many tears for JotWW either.

Zero cost increase? Librarians cost 35 points less.
Regardless, in the new edition, Psychic Hoods are significantly better than Runic Weapons. Runic Weapons now give Admantium Will by any other name, and only effect the unit that the Rune Priest is in, which is crap.
Why couldn't it have been something like this? 'If an enemy model manifests a Psychic power within 24" of a model with a Runic Weapon, add +1 to the Deny The Witch roll. This includes Blessings, Conjuration, etc.' (Only more eloquent in GW-speak.) That way, you incorporate it into the new psychic mechanics without nerfing it into the ground so hard that it is nearly worthless.

If having the best denial psykers in the game is a nerf.....

Quit whining and go try them out. Endurance is hilarious on bloodclaws.....

In a word YESSSS!!!!!
That said with the loss of the Eldar board wide psychic stopping powers I a surprised that the Rune staff lasted this long.

 sfshilo wrote:
If having the best denial psykers in the game is a nerf.....

Quit whining and go try them out. Endurance is hilarious on bloodclaws.....

The best denial psykers? In what way? +1 to DTW. Meh. Mehmehmeh. MEH. Admantium Will does that. And is easy to get. Sure, you can ally someone in and get Admantium Will on top of Runic Weapons, but I'd much rather have a 12" bubble of +1 to all my guys. (Or +2 if your librarian is a higher mastery level.)

Waaaghpower wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
If having the best denial psykers in the game is a nerf.....

Quit whining and go try them out. Endurance is hilarious on bloodclaws.....

The best denial psykers? In what way? +1 to DTW. Meh. Mehmehmeh. MEH. Admantium Will does that. And is easy to get. Sure, you can ally someone in and get Admantium Will on top of Runic Weapons, but I'd much rather have a 12" bubble of +1 to all my guys. (Or +2 if your librarian is a higher mastery level.)

Yeah...that is my point.
The 12 inch bubble was nuts witheverything else they bring to the table.

GO LOOK AT THE DANG BRB POWERS. I have this same problem with my bro who plays pups. You are all so damn dependent you have no clue how strong the other stuff is.

Rune Priests don't get the 12" bubble of +1 to nearby guys. That's the Psychic hood, sfshillo, so what the hell are you on about? And I've looked at the rulebook powers. Endurance is good, if you can get it off. Everything else from Biomancy is mediocre at best on a Rune Priest. And all the other charts can be used for cheaper by other psykers. Give me one real reason why Rune Priests should cost 50% more than Librarians.

When did Space Wolves go from raving viking lunatics who excelled in a brutal close quarters style of combat evolve to anti-psyker specialists? I always hated that about their 5th edition codex. They became known as the ultimate psychic force of the space marines which so flies in the face of their fluff.

I never used Jaws, but I loved Living Lightning, Storm Caller, and Murderous Hurricane.

I'm frustrated that Games Workshop will take the time to remove abilities, rules, and special rules from models with FAQs and NOT adjust their points value. If you're gonna poo on the Rune Priest, at least put him inline with every other Librarian out right now.

It's like my Brotherhood Banner for my paladins. If you're gonna nerf half the reason I took the damn thing, at least give me half the points back. Or give me something new like "If the Brotherhood Banner is still raised high, enemies may not attempt to deny the activation of this units force weapons."

It's like, no, we intended for that piece of wargear, character, or unit to be overcosted garbage.

I'll pour one out for Mephiston fans. He used to be such a boss in 5E. How far has he fallen in just barely 2 years...

Think it's the rune priests that help the space wolves out that start losing control of the canis gene. They bring them back to humanity. Fluff aside...

No GW should not have FAQed the rune priests and taking space wolf codex powers. These powers kept space wolves in the fight esp when fighting a triple riptide or tryanids player.

What can SW do now that any other power armor faction can't do, but better? Pretty much nothing, and now with nyjal at level 2, and not know codex powers...he's just as bad.

Hope we get an update soon or I'm gonna have to melt my wolves back into plastic lumps. GW better stick with the bipedal werewolf route too!! So bad ass.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Considering that after the nerf to psychic hoods it was by far the most powerful psychic defense in the game for zero cost increase and for no rational reason, I'm fine without it turned out, and, aside from a couple of powers (invisibility and summoning spells) there wasn't anything that warranted such a powerful counter, especially for armies that only brought light or moderate psychic support. It was simply a relic of 5th edition that hadn't yet been brought in line with newer mechanics.

Nobody is going to shed too many tears for JotWW either.

Zero cost increase? Librarians cost 35 points less.

I thought they were Level 2 Psykers (since they used to come with 2 powers), apparently they are not. My mistake there

 Vaktathi wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Considering that after the nerf to psychic hoods it was by far the most powerful psychic defense in the game for zero cost increase and for no rational reason, I'm fine without it turned out, and, aside from a couple of powers (invisibility and summoning spells) there wasn't anything that warranted such a powerful counter, especially for armies that only brought light or moderate psychic support. It was simply a relic of 5th edition that hadn't yet been brought in line with newer mechanics.

Nobody is going to shed too many tears for JotWW either.

Zero cost increase? Librarians cost 35 points less.

I thought they were Level 2 Psykers (since they used to come with 2 powers), apparently they are not. My mistake there

If they were base ML2 with an option for ML3 for +50 points, they would have been beasts of 6th ed and quite good still in 7th. The 'Have 2 Psychic powers, use 1' thing is a holdover from the way 5th Edition Marines worked for everyone. It meant you could have a nice variety of uses, making your Psyker a Jack-of-all-Trades, without giving him too much strength. (Unless you paid for it.)

 Murdius Maximus wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Yes, it should have been nerfed. It was clearly a 5th edition relic that didn't fit GW's new concept for psykers (specifically, making it much harder to shut them down), and everyone with any sense knew that it was going to disappear along with all the other 5th edition psychic defense. The only reason it wasn't already nerfed was that SW didn't get a 6th edition codex, so this is just a case of GW deciding not to wait until the next codex to update it.

So what about BA? I'm not totally disagreeing with you, but I do share the plight. Don't get me wrong, SW fared far better in 6th than BA but you can't deny both of them were hit pretty hard in specific areas. It took away an important edge, however insignificant, away from armies already struggling.

I would agree with that. I do believe that it is unfair for armies to become somewhat nullified. BA have not fared well in 6th edition and I think it is a bit early to make a sure judgment about them in 7th, but it doesn't look like it is going to get much better.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
Your post isn't a poll, there's nowhere to vote.

But... GW needs to decide (and apparently has) on what Rune Priests are. In previous editions of the game, they were Druids, worshipping the "natural forces" of Fenris and being what was basically sorcerers while also, out of the other side of their mouths, gakking on the Thousand Sons for doing what is basically the exact same thing.

Now? Now they are the Librarians with funny names that they always should have been, unless you really want your Wolves to be uber-hypocrites. If you like your SW to be the good guys in the fight against the 1KS, then you gotta have RP who are just Librarians under a different name. None of this nature-worshipping, Viking Druid BS, because that's sorcery and should get Fenris burned to a cinder for blasphemy.

Updated, there is a poll now. I do agree with what you have said about GW making up their minds. I guess they decided to give up so they wouldn't be seen so much anymore? I don't really have a good explanation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kal-El wrote:
Think it's the rune priests that help the space wolves out that start losing control of the canis gene. They bring them back to humanity. Fluff aside...

No GW should not have FAQed the rune priests and taking space wolf codex powers. These powers kept space wolves in the fight esp when fighting a triple riptide or tryanids player.

What can SW do now that any other power armor faction can't do, but better? Pretty much nothing, and now with nyjal at level 2, and not know codex powers...he's just as bad.

Hope we get an update soon or I'm gonna have to melt my wolves back into plastic lumps. GW better stick with the bipedal werewolf route too!! So bad ass.

Your post is the embodiment of how I feel too. I don't think it is fair, and to me it almost feels like GW is trying to tailor a "meta". They want to sell more Daemons? Make 7th somewhat Daemon centric. I would say that there are a few armies that are really out of it, no matter what their enthusiasts can say about it. Now SW can be added to the list along with the likes of BA. I would hope that they get an update soon too just because I would like to see a 40k where everyone can go up against everyone else. If a BA player can go toe to toe with a tournament Daemons list. I'm not trying to say its impossible or that BA players have no skill, but just trying to give an example of how different it can be for armies and how much of an up hill battle it can be from just what army you play, that seems wrong to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
When did Space Wolves go from raving viking lunatics who excelled in a brutal close quarters style of combat evolve to anti-psyker specialists? I always hated that about their 5th edition codex. They became known as the ultimate psychic force of the space marines which so flies in the face of their fluff.

If anything GKs should have had something like the Rune Priest IMO

There needs to be a middle ground for the poll. The Rune Priest was too powerful at Psychic Defense, amd Jaws was a little ridiculous, but the nerf they took was WAY more than nescessary. It's like replacing a Storm Shield with a thin rectangle of Balsa.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Alright guys. The Rune Priest got nerfed, HARD. Here is the link to the Space Wolves 7th edition FAQ:

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/Space_Wolves_v1.0_May14.pdf

Personally, I feel like this is not a good move. What was the ultimate f you to psykers is now gone. I would have loved to drop a drop pod with a couple of these bad boys in on my opponents Daemon psyker bubble. Especially with the new allies chart, it would have made for a good anti psychic defense. Unfortunately, not only I, but everyone else will also miss out on this. Now I also question, what do SW have at all now? There is no more JOTWW either. So what do you think? Should the RP have been left like it was? Was this nerf necessary? Or could it have been good to balance out the psyker based meta that is possibly arising now? Let me know with your comments and please vote above. Thanks.

That would have been 200+ points a piece that you would have dropped on your enemy deployment zone that would have died with out achieving anything.

Well if you are playing Tau like I do, then it would be great to have one turn of shooting that ignores what psychic powers I would normally have to deal with. An invisible Grimoire Daemon Prince, well how about my Bursttide and Iontide just blew you to bits. It was not intended to be so ground breaking you would win the game, but merely provided another target that your opponent would have to deal with fast, and also try to get you an early game advantage. I think that not achieving anything is a bit explicit in this sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaaghpower wrote:
There needs to be a middle ground for the poll. The Rune Priest was too powerful at Psychic Defense, amd Jaws was a little ridiculous, but the nerf they took was WAY more than nescessary. It's like replacing a Storm Shield with a thin rectangle of Balsa.

Will do. I hope my mid ground for the poll is satisfactory, let me know. I agree. Why does everything have to be so big or radical with GW these days?

I'm sure space wolves will get a new codex soonish. Honestly, I imagine after orks, blood angels and space wolves are going to be the high priority new codexes. given that necrons and dark eldar are in a better place, (and in DEs case, less popular)

I'd not be suprised to see space wolves in november honestly, to try to spearhead 40k christmas sales

 Vaktathi wrote:
Considering that after the nerf to psychic hoods it was by far the most powerful psychic defense in the game for zero cost increase and for no rational reason, I'm fine without it turned out, and, aside from a couple of powers (invisibility and summoning spells) there wasn't anything that warranted such a powerful counter, especially for armies that only brought light or moderate psychic support. It was simply a relic of 5th edition that hadn't yet been brought in line with newer mechanics.

Nobody is going to shed too many tears for JotWW either.

This.

Now the Rune Priest is line with other psykers of the Imperium.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Considering that after the nerf to psychic hoods it was by far the most powerful psychic defense in the game for zero cost increase and for no rational reason, I'm fine without it turned out, and, aside from a couple of powers (invisibility and summoning spells) there wasn't anything that warranted such a powerful counter, especially for armies that only brought light or moderate psychic support. It was simply a relic of 5th edition that hadn't yet been brought in line with newer mechanics.

Nobody is going to shed too many tears for JotWW either.

This.

Now the Rune Priest is line with other psykers of the Imperium.

If by 'In line with' you mean "Costs 50% more with no discernable benefits, advantages, or unique elements.'

Waaaghpower wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Considering that after the nerf to psychic hoods it was by far the most powerful psychic defense in the game for zero cost increase and for no rational reason, I'm fine without it turned out, and, aside from a couple of powers (invisibility and summoning spells) there wasn't anything that warranted such a powerful counter, especially for armies that only brought light or moderate psychic support. It was simply a relic of 5th edition that hadn't yet been brought in line with newer mechanics.

Nobody is going to shed too many tears for JotWW either.

This.

Now the Rune Priest is line with other psykers of the Imperium.

If by 'In line with' you mean "Costs 50% more with no discernable benefits, advantages, or unique elements.'

This is not a problem that is unique to the Rune Priest as there are other overcosted models/units out there.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Considering that after the nerf to psychic hoods it was by far the most powerful psychic defense in the game for zero cost increase and for no rational reason, I'm fine without it turned out, and, aside from a couple of powers (invisibility and summoning spells) there wasn't anything that warranted such a powerful counter, especially for armies that only brought light or moderate psychic support. It was simply a relic of 5th edition that hadn't yet been brought in line with newer mechanics.

Nobody is going to shed too many tears for JotWW either.

This.

Now the Rune Priest is line with other psykers of the Imperium.

If by 'In line with' you mean "Costs 50% more with no discernable benefits, advantages, or unique elements.'

Apart from a better DTW on your unit, you mean? That is a benefit. The ability to still nullify on a 5+ as the FAQ limiting you to one has gone

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Considering that after the nerf to psychic hoods it was by far the most powerful psychic defense in the game for zero cost increase and for no rational reason, I'm fine without it turned out, and, aside from a couple of powers (invisibility and summoning spells) there wasn't anything that warranted such a powerful counter, especially for armies that only brought light or moderate psychic support. It was simply a relic of 5th edition that hadn't yet been brought in line with newer mechanics.

Nobody is going to shed too many tears for JotWW either.

This.

Now the Rune Priest is line with other psykers of the Imperium.

If by 'In line with' you mean "Costs 50% more with no discernable benefits, advantages, or unique elements.'

Apart from a better DTW on your unit, you mean? That is a benefit. The ability to still nullify on a 5+ as the FAQ limiting you to one has gone

A better DTW, but we lose the psychic hood. Is that trade worth 35 poimts?

I'm not going to argue about the whole Psychic Defence OP Cheese or what cost how much or anything. My biggest annoyance was that they took away the codex powers. I wasn't a huge fan of JotWW personally but I just enjoyed that the RP's powers came from Fenris itself and is why they were elemental in power. It was one of my favourite bits of fluff in the codex.

I'm hoping they do come out with a new codex soon. I'm curious what new stuff we might get. I got my fingers crossed for some Mark of the Wulfen models.

I'm not going to argue about the whole Psychic Defence OP Cheese or what cost how much or anything. My biggest annoyance was that they took away the codex powers. I wasn't a huge fan of JotWW personally but I just enjoyed that the RP's powers came from Fenris itself and is why they were elemental in power. It was one of my favourite bits of fluff in the codex.

As long as, in claiming that, you understand that you're putting the SW in the exact same boat as the Thousand Sons... that is to say, that they're Sorcerers... then that's cool.

A Psyker's power doesn't come from anything but the Warp. If you're not a Psyker and you're doing magic tricks? You're a Sorcerer. Maybe, buried at the core of Fenris, there is some arch-daemon of Slyte-like proportions or something, in the form of an ice-dragon-thing, who knows? But a bunch of stick-wielding priests who control the weather and cast spells aren't psykers, they're warlocks.

um. Aren't we all aware that when they get their new book, they will most definitely have their own Psychic chart of cheese to roll on? Same with BA. That's the trend here.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
um. Aren't we all aware that when they get their new book, they will most definitely have their own Psychic chart of cheese to roll on? Same with BA. That's the trend here.

That doesnt explain why the current one was removed.

Our local Space Wolves player is pretty pissed about it. He likes SW fluff, and this takes away some of the coolest stuff. The SW codex might be coming out in a few months, but that's basically an entire summer wasted to him (he's a student, so these are the months when he plays the most).

I play often against his Rune Priests, they were fine. Yes, their powers are very powerful, but he pays a lot more for his psykers (and honestly, his army needs all the help it can get).

 Psienesis wrote:

I'm not going to argue about the whole Psychic Defence OP Cheese or what cost how much or anything. My biggest annoyance was that they took away the codex powers. I wasn't a huge fan of JotWW personally but I just enjoyed that the RP's powers came from Fenris itself and is why they were elemental in power. It was one of my favourite bits of fluff in the codex.

As long as, in claiming that, you understand that you're putting the SW in the exact same boat as the Thousand Sons... that is to say, that they're Sorcerers... then that's cool.

A Psyker's power doesn't come from anything but the Warp. If you're not a Psyker and you're doing magic tricks? You're a Sorcerer. Maybe, buried at the core of Fenris, there is some arch-daemon of Slyte-like proportions or something, in the form of an ice-dragon-thing, who knows? But a bunch of stick-wielding priests who control the weather and cast spells aren't psykers, they're warlocks.

really I always thought that Rune Priests were supposed to not be psykers or sorcerers. They would have no powers but would use their runes(probably ancient tech) to counter psykers and perhaps have a few one use powers(that came from tech, not mind games)


The space wolves cannot have librarians, they fight in too large groups, not following the codex astartes
The space wolves cannot have sorcerers, they have sorcerers

so they have no pskyer, instead they have an anti psyker. The problem was in 5th they got crazily good powers that worked just like psykers.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Our local Space Wolves player is pretty pissed about it. He likes SW fluff, and this takes away some of the coolest stuff. The SW codex might be coming out in a few months, but that's basically an entire summer wasted to him (he's a student, so these are the months when he plays the most).

I play often against his Rune Priests, they were fine. Yes, their powers are very powerful, but he pays a lot more for his psykers (and honestly, his army needs all the help it can get).

Everything goes in waves, everyone's codex is bad at some point. The Dark Eldar were bad for years before they got their 5th edition update, SW players can survive the 6 months or so until they get their new codex.

It's just how GW works. I certainly don't endorse how they work but we all knew that the psyker table was probably going to drop off and the runepriest was going to get hit with a massive nerf bat, understandably of course.

Should he have gotten a price drop as well? Yes but the same could be said of Mephiston and many older codices that get left in the dust.

I hate rolling for psychic powers, and I play Necrons. I don't want to win because my opponent couldn't roll his lynchpin power. Grumble grumble...
But it's what GW has dedicated themselves to, so we're stuck with it. They could have done a much better job though. I don't know how many powers the BA and SW had, but it seems like it would have been easy enough to assign numbers to them and let the player roll. Stripping out things that made the faction unique when there is no ETA on when they will be getting them back is just lame.
This is especially irksome as they did put in a lot of effort to make the GK work. My friend who plays them is excited to try out his 'new' army. They could have put in the same level of effort for other factions.

 Psienesis wrote:

I'm not going to argue about the whole Psychic Defence OP Cheese or what cost how much or anything. My biggest annoyance was that they took away the codex powers. I wasn't a huge fan of JotWW personally but I just enjoyed that the RP's powers came from Fenris itself and is why they were elemental in power. It was one of my favourite bits of fluff in the codex.

As long as, in claiming that, you understand that you're putting the SW in the exact same boat as the Thousand Sons... that is to say, that they're Sorcerers... then that's cool.

A Psyker's power doesn't come from anything but the Warp. If you're not a Psyker and you're doing magic tricks? You're a Sorcerer. Maybe, buried at the core of Fenris, there is some arch-daemon of Slyte-like proportions or something, in the form of an ice-dragon-thing, who knows? But a bunch of stick-wielding priests who control the weather and cast spells aren't psykers, they're warlocks.

Technically, they learn the Shamanic mystic arts so they're whatever that is and that doesn't sound like Psykers to me but let's be honest, the Space Wolves have always been that group that toed the line hard enough that there are pawprints all over it. I won't agree with all the fluff fitting in perfectly but I still don't feel the RP should have been nerfed as hard as it was.

Besides, who can really say exactly what causes what. Maybe there's something in the Canis Helix that affects their abilities.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
um. Aren't we all aware that when they get their new book, they will most definitely have their own Psychic chart of cheese to roll on? Same with BA. That's the trend here.

Not necessarily.

Both C:SM and C: DA had their old powers removed and only have access to book powers now. I can see the same thing happening to both BA and SW.

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

I'm not going to argue about the whole Psychic Defence OP Cheese or what cost how much or anything. My biggest annoyance was that they took away the codex powers. I wasn't a huge fan of JotWW personally but I just enjoyed that the RP's powers came from Fenris itself and is why they were elemental in power. It was one of my favourite bits of fluff in the codex.

As long as, in claiming that, you understand that you're putting the SW in the exact same boat as the Thousand Sons... that is to say, that they're Sorcerers... then that's cool.

A Psyker's power doesn't come from anything but the Warp. If you're not a Psyker and you're doing magic tricks? You're a Sorcerer. Maybe, buried at the core of Fenris, there is some arch-daemon of Slyte-like proportions or something, in the form of an ice-dragon-thing, who knows? But a bunch of stick-wielding priests who control the weather and cast spells aren't psykers, they're warlocks.

Technically, they learn the Shamanic mystic arts so they're whatever that is and that doesn't sound like Psykers to me but let's be honest, the Space Wolves have always been that group that toed the line hard enough that there are pawprints all over it. I won't agree with all the fluff fitting in perfectly but I still don't feel the RP should have been nerfed as hard as it was.

Besides, who can really say exactly what causes what. Maybe there's something in the Canis Helix that affects their abilities.

If they get their spells from Fenris, then they are sorcerers through and through and some of the greatest hypocrites in the galaxy. If they are just psykers, they are at best annoying about it. As per the nerf, they had it coming but I do wish that they would have also well.... gotten cheaper. Of course that doesn't really work with GW and I can't think of a time they have ever done that.

Technically, they learn the Shamanic mystic arts so they're whatever that is

It's a Sorcerer. Possibly also a Daemonurgist.

Space wolves are still SM+1. Only their terminators and lack of some of the newer options makes them lag benind. RPs are still really good. Not a lot of sympathy here on a nerf that isn't that hard of a nerf.

 Lobukia wrote:
Space wolves are still SM+1. Only their terminators and lack of some of the newer options makes them lag benind. RPs are still really good. Not a lot of sympathy here on a nerf that isn't that hard of a nerf.

Uh... With the exception of Grey Hunters and Missile Launcher Long Fangs, name any unit in the Space Wolf codex that is better than the Space Marine equivalent. Back these statements up with a legitimate argument, please. I'll await your response, if you can manage it. (Note: Better in some circumstances but worse in others doesn't count unless the benefits outweigh the penalties. And don't bring up units that Space Marines don't have an equivalent of, or I'll point out how many blatantly better and many more units the Space Marines have.)

Also, I'm curious what your idea of a 'Hard nerf' is, since apparently losing access to 7 Psychic powers and having your pyschic defense capabilities cut from a 50% chance to ignore everything within 24", to a 16% increased chance to ignore, for spells cast at the Psyker. What would a Hard Nerf be? -1 to all stats and Psychic tests taken on a -2?

I'd be happy to see SW Rune Priests relegated to a purely anti-psyker role rather than being awesome psykers themselves, I think that would fit the SW theme better. But obviously they still need to be balanced either way.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'd be happy to see SW Rune Priests relegated to a purely anti-psyker role rather than being awesome psykers themselves, I think that would fit the SW theme better. But obviously they still need to be balanced either way.

I agree. Having Psykers is by no means necessary, but it would be cool to have dedicated anti-Psyker units. (Something I believe no other army really has.) Maybe they only generate Warp Charges to be used for DTW, and they buff DTW rolls, but can't help manifest powers? I'd even like it if they hurt friendly psykers, too, since that'd be a fluffy handicap.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
um. Aren't we all aware that when they get their new book, they will most definitely have their own Psychic chart of cheese to roll on? Same with BA. That's the trend here.

Thats true, but is it going to be able to keep up. I feel like one of the great things about the RP was that it provided a great defense(a ridiculously broken one at that), we honestly have no idea what crazy chart GW is going to make up, especially in light of the Daemonology table, especially Malefic Daemonology.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Space wolves are still SM+1. Only their terminators and lack of some of the newer options makes them lag benind. RPs are still really good. Not a lot of sympathy here on a nerf that isn't that hard of a nerf.

Uh... With the exception of Grey Hunters and Missile Launcher Long Fangs, name any unit in the Space Wolf codex that is better than the Space Marine equivalent. Back these statements up with a legitimate argument, please. I'll await your response, if you can manage it. (Note: Better in some circumstances but worse in others doesn't count unless the benefits outweigh the penalties. And don't bring up units that Space Marines don't have an equivalent of, or I'll point out how many blatantly better and many more units the Space Marines have.)

Also, I'm curious what your idea of a 'Hard nerf' is, since apparently losing access to 7 Psychic powers and having your pyschic defense capabilities cut from a 50% chance to ignore everything within 24", to a 16% increased chance to ignore, for spells cast at the Psyker. What would a Hard Nerf be? -1 to all stats and Psychic tests taken on a -2?

Their scouts are superior. Greg Hunters are so far and away better than TAC marines it bears repeating. Their frost weapons are better than power weapons. Prior to th Nerf their psykers were far superior....now not so much.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Space wolves are still SM+1. Only their terminators and lack of some of the newer options makes them lag benind. RPs are still really good. Not a lot of sympathy here on a nerf that isn't that hard of a nerf.

Uh... With the exception of Grey Hunters and Missile Launcher Long Fangs, name any unit in the Space Wolf codex that is better than the Space Marine equivalent. Back these statements up with a legitimate argument, please. I'll await your response, if you can manage it. (Note: Better in some circumstances but worse in others doesn't count unless the benefits outweigh the penalties. And don't bring up units that Space Marines don't have an equivalent of, or I'll point out how many blatantly better and many more units the Space Marines have.)

Also, I'm curious what your idea of a 'Hard nerf' is, since apparently losing access to 7 Psychic powers and having your pyschic defense capabilities cut from a 50% chance to ignore everything within 24", to a 16% increased chance to ignore, for spells cast at the Psyker. What would a Hard Nerf be? -1 to all stats and Psychic tests taken on a -2?

Their scouts are superior. Greg Hunters are so far and away better than TAC marines it bears repeating. Their frost weapons are better than power weapons. Prior to th Nerf their psykers were far superior....now not so much.

Our scouts cost 4 points more, and are elites, not troops. (Who can't take Land Speeders). Grey Hunters are the one good unit we've got, and they're better than Tacticals only because Tacticals suck. Frost Weapons cost 10 Points more for +1 Strength but othetwise are normal Power Weapons. Remind you of something? Like, I dunno, Relic Blades?

 Commander_Farsight wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
um. Aren't we all aware that when they get their new book, they will most definitely have their own Psychic chart of cheese to roll on? Same with BA. That's the trend here.

Thats true, but is it going to be able to keep up. I feel like one of the great things about the RP was that it provided a great defense(a ridiculously broken one at that), we honestly have no idea what crazy chart GW is going to make up, especially in light of the Daemonology table, especially Malefic Daemonology.

Not quite. Also it's being heavily debated whether malefic is even worth it. From what I've gathered, it's largely devestating against slow armies that can't hit hard earlier on or worthless as a spam. Overall, it seems more likely it'll be good on a few units.

As per psycher charts, they aren't really reliable like that.

CSM got god specific spells
DA lost theirs
Tau have no psykers
Daemons gained one for each of the 3 gods that use psykers
Eldar gained 2 tables.
Space Marines lost theirs....

Overall, it is far more likely that BA and SW have truly lost their spells for good.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Space wolves are still SM+1. Only their terminators and lack of some of the newer options makes them lag benind. RPs are still really good. Not a lot of sympathy here on a nerf that isn't that hard of a nerf.

Uh... With the exception of Grey Hunters and Missile Launcher Long Fangs, name any unit in the Space Wolf codex that is better than the Space Marine equivalent. Back these statements up with a legitimate argument, please. I'll await your response, if you can manage it. (Note: Better in some circumstances but worse in others doesn't count unless the benefits outweigh the penalties. And don't bring up units that Space Marines don't have an equivalent of, or I'll point out how many blatantly better and many more units the Space Marines have.)

Also, I'm curious what your idea of a 'Hard nerf' is, since apparently losing access to 7 Psychic powers and having your pyschic defense capabilities cut from a 50% chance to ignore everything within 24", to a 16% increased chance to ignore, for spells cast at the Psyker. What would a Hard Nerf be? -1 to all stats and Psychic tests taken on a -2?

Their scouts are superior. Greg Hunters are so far and away better than TAC marines it bears repeating. Their frost weapons are better than power weapons. Prior to th Nerf their psykers were far superior....now not so much.

Our scouts cost 4 points more, and are elites, not troops. (Who can't take Land Speeders). Grey Hunters are the one good unit we've got, and they're better than Tacticals only because Tacticals suck. Frost Weapons cost 10 Points more for +1 Strength but othetwise are normal Power Weapons. Remind you of something? Like, I dunno, Relic Blades?

Relic blades are stuck with AP3 and are two handed, so I'd say they're different enough. Grey Hunters get a good deal more than tacs do for a mere 1 pt more (Second, free special, ccw and counter attack), although some will dismiss some of these advantages as irrelevant as assault sucks yadda yadda.

I'm not having much sympathy either, but I can understand how it would be frustrating.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Space wolves are still SM+1. Only their terminators and lack of some of the newer options makes them lag benind. RPs are still really good. Not a lot of sympathy here on a nerf that isn't that hard of a nerf.

Uh... With the exception of Grey Hunters and Missile Launcher Long Fangs, name any unit in the Space Wolf codex that is better than the Space Marine equivalent. Back these statements up with a legitimate argument, please. I'll await your response, if you can manage it. (Note: Better in some circumstances but worse in others doesn't count unless the benefits outweigh the penalties. And don't bring up units that Space Marines don't have an equivalent of, or I'll point out how many blatantly better and many more units the Space Marines have.)

Also, I'm curious what your idea of a 'Hard nerf' is, since apparently losing access to 7 Psychic powers and having your pyschic defense capabilities cut from a 50% chance to ignore everything within 24", to a 16% increased chance to ignore, for spells cast at the Psyker. What would a Hard Nerf be? -1 to all stats and Psychic tests taken on a -2?

So besides the things that make you better... what makes you better?! Well I can smell the circular argument on this one before it starts. You seem pretty determined to be bitter about this one, so I'll let you.

PS even with a crazy slanted poll, 71% agree with me
PPS I play space wolves and own a fully painted force myself. This isn't sour grapes. Looking at Grey Hunter Drop Pod spam with Long Fangs and wolf guard divided out into pods that all have a banner and a mark... With seventh's new scoring rules and vehicle rules.... you're quite blind if you think SW are somehow behind after the edition change.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
um. Aren't we all aware that when they get their new book, they will most definitely have their own Psychic chart of cheese to roll on? Same with BA. That's the trend here.

Thats true, but is it going to be able to keep up. I feel like one of the great things about the RP was that it provided a great defense(a ridiculously broken one at that), we honestly have no idea what crazy chart GW is going to make up, especially in light of the Daemonology table, especially Malefic Daemonology.

Not quite. Also it's being heavily debated whether malefic is even worth it. From what I've gathered, it's largely devestating against slow armies that can't hit hard earlier on or worthless as a spam. Overall, it seems more likely it'll be good on a few units.

As per psycher charts, they aren't really reliable like that.

CSM got god specific spells
DA lost theirs
Tau have no psykers
Daemons gained one for each of the 3 gods that use psykers
Eldar gained 2 tables.
Space Marines lost theirs....

Overall, it is far more likely that BA and SW have truly lost their spells for good.

In which case GW is trying to make the extensions of their poster boy what? Regular troops who aren't "good enough" so they just don't have anything special? It is an interesting point you have made though, with the SM loosing their tables. Maybe they are going to make them more like the AM, and have a large arsenal of weapons with some special abilities, but not as potent with the psykers, maybe a few just because they are still a SM chapter.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
um. Aren't we all aware that when they get their new book, they will most definitely have their own Psychic chart of cheese to roll on? Same with BA. That's the trend here.

Thats true, but is it going to be able to keep up. I feel like one of the great things about the RP was that it provided a great defense(a ridiculously broken one at that), we honestly have no idea what crazy chart GW is going to make up, especially in light of the Daemonology table, especially Malefic Daemonology.

Not quite. Also it's being heavily debated whether malefic is even worth it. From what I've gathered, it's largely devestating against slow armies that can't hit hard earlier on or worthless as a spam. Overall, it seems more likely it'll be good on a few units.

As per psycher charts, they aren't really reliable like that.

CSM got god specific spells
DA lost theirs
Tau have no psykers
Daemons gained one for each of the 3 gods that use psykers
Eldar gained 2 tables.
Space Marines lost theirs....

Overall, it is far more likely that BA and SW have truly lost their spells for good.

In which case GW is trying to make the extensions of their poster boy what? Regular troops who aren't "good enough" so they just don't have anything special? It is an interesting point you have made though, with the SM loosing their tables. Maybe they are going to make them more like the AM, and have a large arsenal of weapons with some special abilities, but not as potent with the psykers, maybe a few just because they are still a SM chapter.

Well considering the extensions of the poster boys are still only loyalist marines that could, if they actually used supplements in a thoughtful way and didn't make the prices for supplements and the codex so ridiculously expensive, all be easily rolled back in. The only real break is SW but they've been notorious for being SM+1 throughout their time which has always been grating.

As per the individuals, it's just a push that GW has been going for. Random psyker tables rather than being able to purchase your abilities and then removing spells that fit the army. Largely the Imperium just gets restricted to BRB spells with only the non-imperium forces getting magic. A part of me admits it'll be sad to see BA and the sorts lose their spells as it was a reliable purchase and fit the armies better but it's just what they are pushing for when it comes to their armies. Cause you need randomness to forge your narrative. It'll be rather predictable. Warlord traits, some specialist weapons, maybe an extra weapon, about 2 kits, 1 multi-kit, possibly a few things lost, some things broken, some things dramatically underpowered.

Thats true. Now what direction do people see SW going in for the future? With a new codex that isn't even rumored yet, what do you think?

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Thats true. Now what direction do people see SW going in for the future? With a new codex that isn't even rumored yet, what do you think?

Well there are rumours they will be the next 40k codex... Probably more comedic WOLFY WOLFENSTEIN. Maybe an attempt to go more assaulty but ultimately fails. Likely SM+1 but who knows.

StarTrotter: Not to get into *this* argument again, but you couldn't easily roll Space Wolves back into the SM codex without getting rid of a ton of unique units, characters, and options. You'd be kneecapping them and ruining what makes them cool.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
um. Aren't we all aware that when they get their new book, they will most definitely have their own Psychic chart of cheese to roll on? Same with BA. That's the trend here.

Then they should have left the current codex powers alone IMO. Stripping the powers really hurt the entire army. Jaws, living lightening, murderous hurricane is what made the space wolves in the current status somewhat competitive. There wasn't a need for it. The runic weapon nerf they could have adjusted it better to fit 7th, but that needed a change due to how the deny the witch works now.

I'd say most people for the nerf are non space wolves players or non fans based on their rank by their name and play armies that these powers wreck. Paper, rock, or scissors is what 40k is and SW doesn't have any of those 3 things now.

Kal-El wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
um. Aren't we all aware that when they get their new book, they will most definitely have their own Psychic chart of cheese to roll on? Same with BA. That's the trend here.

Then they should have left the current codex powers alone IMO. Stripping the powers really hurt the entire army. Jaws, living lightening, murderous hurricane is what made the space wolves in the current status somewhat competitive. There wasn't a need for it. The runic weapon nerf they could have adjusted it better to fit 7th, but that needed a change due to how the deny the witch works now.

The current codex powers don't have the mechanics built in for how psychic powers work now. Obviously it wouldn't have been too hard for them to write up those mechanics in the FAQ, but that's obviously more effort than they want to put in right now. It's not a very good explanation, but that does seem to be the explanation.

 Orblivion wrote:

Kal-El wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
um. Aren't we all aware that when they get their new book, they will most definitely have their own Psychic chart of cheese to roll on? Same with BA. That's the trend here.

Then they should have left the current codex powers alone IMO. Stripping the powers really hurt the entire army. Jaws, living lightening, murderous hurricane is what made the space wolves in the current status somewhat competitive. There wasn't a need for it. The runic weapon nerf they could have adjusted it better to fit 7th, but that needed a change due to how the deny the witch works now.

The current codex powers don't have the mechanics built in for how psychic powers work now. Obviously it wouldn't have been too hard for them to write up those mechanics in the FAQ, but that's obviously more effort than they want to put in right now. It's not a very good explanation, but that does seem to be the explanation.

You gotta give examples on this one because I'm not seeing what your saying. From what I see they work the exact same, esp since I played a game with the powers before the FAQ came out and they worked fine. If the other player doesn't want jaws or something to be cast he can toss all his deny the witch dice to stop it.

 Orblivion wrote:

Kal-El wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
um. Aren't we all aware that when they get their new book, they will most definitely have their own Psychic chart of cheese to roll on? Same with BA. That's the trend here.

Then they should have left the current codex powers alone IMO. Stripping the powers really hurt the entire army. Jaws, living lightening, murderous hurricane is what made the space wolves in the current status somewhat competitive. There wasn't a need for it. The runic weapon nerf they could have adjusted it better to fit 7th, but that needed a change due to how the deny the witch works now.

The current codex powers don't have the mechanics built in for how psychic powers work now. Obviously it wouldn't have been too hard for them to write up those mechanics in the FAQ, but that's obviously more effort than they want to put in right now. It's not a very good explanation, but that does seem to be the explanation.

"All the powers listed in Codex: Space Wolves count as Warp Charge 1. (All the shooting powers) are Witchfires, (Pretty much everything else) are Blessings."
There, boom. Done.
To change the Rune Staff so that it isn't completely worthless, how's this?
"All Deny The Witch tests taken against a power manifested within 24" of a model with a Runic Weapon gain a +1."
Easy peasy, it still has the same function as the original, is less powerful without being a complete nerf, and isn't completely stupid.

Kal-El wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Kal-El wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
um. Aren't we all aware that when they get their new book, they will most definitely have their own Psychic chart of cheese to roll on? Same with BA. That's the trend here.

Then they should have left the current codex powers alone IMO. Stripping the powers really hurt the entire army. Jaws, living lightening, murderous hurricane is what made the space wolves in the current status somewhat competitive. There wasn't a need for it. The runic weapon nerf they could have adjusted it better to fit 7th, but that needed a change due to how the deny the witch works now.

The current codex powers don't have the mechanics built in for how psychic powers work now. Obviously it wouldn't have been too hard for them to write up those mechanics in the FAQ, but that's obviously more effort than they want to put in right now. It's not a very good explanation, but that does seem to be the explanation.

You gotta give examples on this one because I'm not seeing what your saying. From what I see they work the exact same, esp since I played a game with the powers before the FAQ came out and they worked fine. If the other player doesn't want jaws or something to be cast he can toss all his deny the witch dice to stop it.

The codex powers don't have any warp charge values or power types assigned to them.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Kal-El wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
um. Aren't we all aware that when they get their new book, they will most definitely have their own Psychic chart of cheese to roll on? Same with BA. That's the trend here.

Then they should have left the current codex powers alone IMO. Stripping the powers really hurt the entire army. Jaws, living lightening, murderous hurricane is what made the space wolves in the current status somewhat competitive. There wasn't a need for it. The runic weapon nerf they could have adjusted it better to fit 7th, but that needed a change due to how the deny the witch works now.

The current codex powers don't have the mechanics built in for how psychic powers work now. Obviously it wouldn't have been too hard for them to write up those mechanics in the FAQ, but that's obviously more effort than they want to put in right now. It's not a very good explanation, but that does seem to be the explanation.

"All the powers listed in Codex: Space Wolves count as Warp Charge 1. (All the shooting powers) are Witchfires, (Pretty much everything else) are Blessings."
There, boom. Done.
To change the Rune Staff so that it isn't completely worthless, how's this?
"All Deny The Witch tests taken against a power manifested within 24" of a model with a Runic Weapon gain a +1."
Easy peasy, it still has the same function as the original, is less powerful without being a complete nerf, and isn't completely stupid.

I told you it wasn't a very good explanation.

Yeah, the Rune Priest was pretty ridiculous, especially considering how many a SW player could take and the fact that, even without the staff, it's still a great model.

I don't agree with getting rid of the Codex powers, but that's more of a thematic thing rather than "oh you nerfed them too hard".

Also, to hijack the thread with the question - one that also applies elsewhere: if a model has +1 to Deny the Witch Rolls (like the RP does now) does that affect all DtW rolls made by the controlling player so long as that model is alive, or does it only affect powers cast on the model or its unit?

 The Shadow wrote:
Yeah, the Rune Priest was pretty ridiculous, especially considering how many a SW player could take and the fact that, even without the staff, it's still a great model.

I don't agree with getting rid of the Codex powers, but that's more of a thematic thing rather than "oh you nerfed them too hard".

Also, to hijack the thread with the question - one that also applies elsewhere: if a model has +1 to Deny the Witch Rolls (like the RP does now) does that affect all DtW rolls made by the controlling player so long as that model is alive, or does it only affect powers cast on the model or its unit?

The rule states that "A model with a Runic Weapon adds 1 to Deny The Witch rolls." I'm fairly certain that means that it applies tom *his* Deny The Witch rolls, but RAW it could definitely be interpreted that 'A model with a Runic Weapon adds 1 to any Deny The Witch Rolls' as much as it could 'A model with a Runic Weapon adds 1 to his Deny The Witch Rolls'.
And since there's no rule saying that this doesn't stack, it might actually be smart to buy a half dozen Rune Priests for a 1+ Deny The Witch across the board. (Or 2+, since 1s always fail.) Buy them all +1 Mastery Level, add some allied Grey Knights or Inquisition for even more Warp Charges, and ignore every Psychic Power cast on the board with ease. (This might be a counter for Daemon Factories!)

It's cheesy as hell, and I seriously doubt that is what it's supposed to mean, but technically that does seem to be how it is written.

EDIT: If you look at Njal's power, it doesn't help much for RAW but does with RAI. It says it grants Njal an additional +1, for a total of +2. This implies that the bonus was supposed to apply specifically to the model with the Runic Weapon, but it could always mean that everyone has a +1, but he specifically gets a +2.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Thats true. Now what direction do people see SW going in for the future? With a new codex that isn't even rumored yet, what do you think?

Ultimately, I want to see them fully embrace their Vikings In Spaaaaaaace! roots. I love the over-the-top units like Thunderwolf cavalry and think it fits the fluff (its assaulty, its primative, its wolfy). I'd prefer the Rune Priests be mainly for denying other psykers instead of being offensive powerhouses on top of the defensive capabilities. Make their powers primarily as buffs to confound or prevent enemy psychics. I'd prefer to see a more close quarters focus for the army, with a bit of ruthless cunning to go with it (maybe more infiltrating units or something that grants stealth/shroud?) . I hope there is some sort of rule that reflects their tendacy to not work well with others, that would impact allies in some way. And since they don't follow the Codex Astartes, make some of the squad sizes larger (a blob of 20-30 blood claws would actually make them work!).

Finally, make the sagas actually mean something. Roll for them at the beginning of the game, rerolling those that have no impact to the army being faced (no MCs? Reroll the one that gives Monster Hunter). If the saga is failed, your opponent gains 1 VP, if its successful, you gain 1 VP.

While the SW are not a Codex Adherent Chapter, in practice, this doesn't mean much. With what we're given in the previous mentions of the Great Companies, there's not that many more SW than there are in a Codex Adherent Chapter. The second-largest GC is noted as having like 200 Battle Brothers in it, and there being only 10 GCs, you end up with having just over 2000 Space Wolves... and that is working under the very liberal estimate that 8 of the remaining 9 GCs have 199 Marines apiece (which is probably not at all accurate), while Logan's GC is the largest and has 300 Marines (which is, again, a number pulled out of thin air, Logan's GC could be only 201 Marines... or it could be 1000 on its own, but that is exceedingly unlikely). (199 x 8 + 200 + 300 = 2092).

In reality, with more conservative estimates on the sizes of the Great Companies (including those we are given specific headcounts for), there's probably only 1300-1500 Space Wolves in the entire Chapter.

So, on the outside, the SW are nearly 1/3rd the suspected total strength of the Black Templars... but in reality, they are probably roughly 1 and 1/2 the size of a regular, Codex Adherent Chapter.

Psienies: There are 12 companies, not 10.

 Psienesis wrote:
While the SW are not a Codex Adherent Chapter, in practice, this doesn't mean much. With what we're given in the previous mentions of the Great Companies, there's not that many more SW than there are in a Codex Adherent Chapter. The second-largest GC is noted as having like 200 Battle Brothers in it, and there being only 10 GCs, you end up with having just over 2000 Space Wolves... and that is working under the very liberal estimate that 8 of the remaining 9 GCs have 199 Marines apiece (which is probably not at all accurate), while Logan's GC is the largest and has 300 Marines (which is, again, a number pulled out of thin air, Logan's GC could be only 201 Marines... or it could be 1000 on its own, but that is exceedingly unlikely). (199 x 8 + 200 + 300 = 2092).

In reality, with more conservative estimates on the sizes of the Great Companies (including those we are given specific headcounts for), there's probably only 1300-1500 Space Wolves in the entire Chapter.

So, on the outside, the SW are nearly 1/3rd the suspected total strength of the Black Templars... but in reality, they are probably roughly 1 and 1/2 the size of a regular, Codex Adherent Chapter.

Interesting, but how does this have to do with the RP and how it affects Wolves moving forward. Would just like to keep the thread on topic.

 Psienesis wrote:
While the SW are not a Codex Adherent Chapter, in practice, this doesn't mean much. With what we're given in the previous mentions of the Great Companies, there's not that many more SW than there are in a Codex Adherent Chapter. The second-largest GC is noted as having like 200 Battle Brothers in it, and there being only 10 GCs, you end up with having just over 2000 Space Wolves... and that is working under the very liberal estimate that 8 of the remaining 9 GCs have 199 Marines apiece (which is probably not at all accurate), while Logan's GC is the largest and has 300 Marines (which is, again, a number pulled out of thin air, Logan's GC could be only 201 Marines... or it could be 1000 on its own, but that is exceedingly unlikely). (199 x 8 + 200 + 300 = 2092).

In reality, with more conservative estimates on the sizes of the Great Companies (including those we are given specific headcounts for), there's probably only 1300-1500 Space Wolves in the entire Chapter.

So, on the outside, the SW are nearly 1/3rd the suspected total strength of the Black Templars... but in reality, they are probably roughly 1 and 1/2 the size of a regular, Codex Adherent Chapter.

Sorry to continue the off-topic subject, but weren't the Space Wolves one of the larger legions on the Heresy era and they weren't broken up like all of the others afterwards. What the heck happened to them all??? Are they just really that much slower at finding recruits?

Probably lose lots of Blood Claws.

Poll seems pretty clear, 2/3 (66%) of people voting it was OP

Whether or not it still was, with how it owned 5th ed, you couldn't have expected a very different reaction.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Psienies: There are 12 companies, not 10.

Even with 12 GC, that only adds, at most, another 398 Marines (199 x 2). So we're still in "maybe twice, three times as big as a Codex Chapter", definitely not edging into BT territory.

ClassicCarraway wrote: Sorry to continue the off-topic subject, but weren't the Space Wolves one of the larger legions on the Heresy era and they weren't broken up like all of the others afterwards. What the heck happened to them all??? Are they just really that much slower at finding recruits?

Larger legions? No. The Space Wolves have never been as huge as some of the really big ones (like UM). They definitely weren't plagued with problems like the Thousand Sons (which often only had 1000 Marines in the whole Legion at various parts of the GC and the Heresy) though, so weren't, like, a tiny legion. The main problem was that their geneseed never worked in anything other than a native Fenrisian, which is not a densely populated planet.

It should also be noted that the SW suffered some pretty serious casualties during the GC, the Heresy, the Burning of Prospero, the Battle of the Fang, their war with the GK, and probably more than a few with their snit with the Ecclesiarchy, and suffered the loss of the entire 13th Company and any attempt to make more Wolves out of non-Fenrisians. They just can't replace their losses that quickly, because they are limited to the population of a single world, one which cannot and does not support a large population (being a bunch of Feral Vikings that live on unstable islands that drift in seas populated by man-eating creatures, and what other land-masses exist are also populate by man-eating creatures... and other violent Feral Vikings who want nothing more than to raid your village, kill your people, and take your stuff.)

Commander_Farsight wrote:Interesting, but how does this have to do with the RP and how it affects Wolves moving forward. Would just like to keep the thread on topic.

Because someone brought up the fact that they are a non-Codex Adherent Chapter having something to do with the number and power of the Rune Priests. Which... it doesn't, really. Fenris does not breed more psykers than any other Death World in the Imperium. Probably fewer, in fact, given that lots of them probably die when the whole planet goes topsy-turvy, as it does on the regular.

 Psienesis wrote:
Larger legions? No. The Space Wolves have never been as huge as some of the really big ones (like UM). They definitely weren't plagued with problems like the Thousand Sons (which often only had 1000 Marines in the whole Legion at various parts of the GC and the Heresy) though, so weren't, like, a tiny legion. The main problem was that their geneseed never worked in anything other than a native Fenrisian, which is not a densely populated planet.

It should also be noted that the SW suffered some pretty serious casualties during the GC, the Heresy, the Burning of Prospero, the Battle of the Fang, their war with the GK, and probably more than a few with their snit with the Ecclesiarchy, and suffered the loss of the entire 13th Company and any attempt to make more Wolves out of non-Fenrisians. They just can't replace their losses that quickly, because they are limited to the population of a single world, one which cannot and does not support a large population (being a bunch of Feral Vikings that live on unstable islands that drift in seas populated by man-eating creatures, and what other land-masses exist are also populate by man-eating creatures... and other violent Feral Vikings who want nothing more than to raid your village, kill your people, and take your stuff.)

Commander_Farsight wrote:Interesting, but how does this have to do with the RP and how it affects Wolves moving forward. Would just like to keep the thread on topic.

Because someone brought up the fact that they are a non-Codex Adherent Chapter having something to do with the number and power of the Rune Priests. Which... it doesn't, really. Fenris does not breed more psykers than any other Death World in the Imperium. Probably fewer, in fact, given that lots of them probably die when the whole planet goes topsy-turvy, as it does on the regular.

You forgot to add the part where on top of all the violent volcanic reactions, harsh snowstorms, killer animals and other crazy Vikings that want to pillage and kill, that they also have the ritual of giving a newborn an axe and if the baby doesn't clutch on to it right away then he's chucked into the sea because they can't afford weakness even straight from the womb.


Back on topic, I can pretty much agree with everyone saying that the RP needed to get nerfed, I think it could have been done a lot better than taking what was a favourite unit of any Wolves player and dropping it in the toilet. People have already pointed out how easy it would be to alter things like the Rune Staff and codex powers to fit the new Psychic phase.

Personally I like the sound of making Rune Priests a defensive unit. I could definitely live with being able to bring my troops forward to engage my opponent without them being torn apart by psykers on the way.

Apparently a baby up to three months will grab hold of something put in its hand involuntarily, so the axe ritual would be pretty safe.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Apparently a baby up to three months will grab hold of something put in its hand involuntarily, so the axe ritual would be pretty safe.

Perfect. You still get to sound badass without actually having to toss babies in the drink.

[quote=Psienesis 598707 6905243 f1b18bd88cc3cc24f351fc83dc51f5cd.jpg

ClassicCarraway wrote: Sorry to continue the off-topic subject, but weren't the Space Wolves one of the larger legions on the Heresy era and they weren't broken up like all of the others afterwards. What the heck happened to them all??? Are they just really that much slower at finding recruits?

Larger legions? No. The Space Wolves have never been as huge as some of the really big ones (like UM). They definitely weren't plagued with problems like the Thousand Sons (which often only had 1000 Marines in the whole Legion at various parts of the GC and the Heresy) though, so weren't, like, a tiny legion. The main problem was that their geneseed never worked in anything other than a native Fenrisian, which is not a densely populated planet.

It should also be noted that the SW suffered some pretty serious casualties during the GC, the Heresy, the Burning of Prospero, the Battle of the Fang, their war with the GK, and probably more than a few with their snit with the Ecclesiarchy, and suffered the loss of the entire 13th Company and any attempt to make more Wolves out of non-Fenrisians. They just can't replace their losses that quickly, because they are limited to the population of a single world, one which cannot and does not support a large population (being a bunch of Feral Vikings that live on unstable islands that drift in seas populated by man-eating creatures, and what other land-masses exist are also populate by man-eating creatures... and other violent Feral Vikings who want nothing more than to raid your village, kill your people, and take your stuff.)

Ok, I'll bite. I'm a Tau guy. Personally, I think flyers are pretty awesome models. I like the Wolves Drop Pod lists a lot, but is there a reason in their fluff why they don't have ANY flyers?

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Ok, I'll bite. I'm a Tau guy. Personally, I think flyers are pretty awesome models. I like the Wolves Drop Pod lists a lot, but is there a reason in their fluff why they don't have ANY flyers?

No, there isn't. There's one line in the codex about how they don't use Teleport Homers because they like to keep their feet on the ground, but that's it.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Ok, I'll bite. I'm a Tau guy. Personally, I think flyers are pretty awesome models. I like the Wolves Drop Pod lists a lot, but is there a reason in their fluff why they don't have ANY flyers?

No, there isn't. There's one line in the codex about how they don't use Teleport Homers because they like to keep their feet on the ground, but that's it.

In all honesty, the only people who seem to enjoy flight is the swiftclaws cause it makes things more crazy.

Notice how all the speedster stuff is regulated to the younger generation, while the older generation shun even basic jump jets in most cases, I honestly believe they just don't believe it's worthwhile to them.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Ok, I'll bite. I'm a Tau guy. Personally, I think flyers are pretty awesome models. I like the Wolves Drop Pod lists a lot, but is there a reason in their fluff why they don't have ANY flyers?

No, there isn't. There's one line in the codex about how they don't use Teleport Homers because they like to keep their feet on the ground, but that's it.

In all honesty, the only people who seem to enjoy flight is the swiftclaws cause it makes things more crazy.

Notice how all the speedster stuff is regulated to the younger generation, while the older generation shun even basic jump jets in most cases, I honestly believe they just don't believe it's worthwhile to them.

It's because their Codex predates Flyers, that is all. Space Wolves don't like jump packs or teleporting, but they love transport flyers (for examples, see the old Ragnar Space Wolf books or Prospero Burns). I imagine they'll get a shiney Wolf flyer come the new Codex, because there isn't really anywhere else for their model line to go... not that that has ever stopped GW before... *coughCenturionscough*

Good riddance. Hopefully down the line they'll shove space wolves in line and finally fold them into the normal Space Marine Codex, along with Blood Angels. The only space marine faction that has a somewhat valid claim to being its own faction are the Dark Angels, considering they effectively comprise three different army types.

But really, it was about damn time the super special snowflake Rune Priest got slammed.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Good riddance. Hopefully down the line they'll shove space wolves in line and finally fold them into the normal Space Marine Codex, along with Blood Angels. The only space marine faction that has a somewhat valid claim to being its own faction are the Dark Angels, considering they effectively comprise three different army types.

But really, it was about damn time the super special snowflake Rune Priest got slammed.

Bitter much?
Considering that Space Marines can perform 2 of the 3 roles that Dark Angels can, and both Space Wolves and Grey Knights can perform the other one, your argument doesn't help much. (And with unbound, it's saying even less. Every Marine army can go Ravenwing or Deathwing now.) In fact, Dark Angels would bethe easiest army to fold in, in my opinion, though their fluff and unique characters make that a fairly unappealing option.

I am tired of hearing people bitch about 'Special Snowflakes' as far as rules go. Fluff-wise, sure, it gets annoying. Rules-wise, it's boring if nobody gets anything unique. Not to mention, at the time of their release Rine Priests weren't any more 'Special Snowflake' than.Librarians from other chapters. Stronger, maybe, since Jaws was pretty definitely too strong, but not anymore special.

Your statements simply reek of being bitter over losing games or else just anger over not having the most unique and crazy army in the fluff.

I am tired of hearing people bitch about 'Special Snowflakes' as far as rules go. Fluff-wise, sure, it gets annoying. Rules-wise, it's boring if nobody gets anything unique. Not to mention, at the time of their release Rine Priests weren't any more 'Special Snowflake' than.Librarians from other chapters. Stronger, maybe, since Jaws was pretty definitely too strong, but not anymore special.

Special Anti-Daemon sword, stronger psyker hood, special anti-infiltration wargear, all the other optional wargear.

I am tired of hearing people bitch about 'Special Snowflakes' as far as rules go. Fluff-wise, sure, it gets annoying. Rules-wise, it's boring if nobody gets anything unique.

Give something to Xenos and Chaos then instead, they would be massively unique compared to the light differences in Space Marine factions.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Good riddance. Hopefully down the line they'll shove space wolves in line and finally fold them into the normal Space Marine Codex, along with Blood Angels. The only space marine faction that has a somewhat valid claim to being its own faction are the Dark Angels, considering they effectively comprise three different army types.

I was willing to meet you in the middle, until you mentioned Dark Angels. Seriously? They're even easier to fold than Blood Angels. If we're being reasonable, the only Marine Codices that could realistically be folded without losing major flavour/playstyles (eg, no eliminating units or truly unique wargear) would be Dark Angels and Blood Angels.


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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Give something to Xenos and Chaos then instead, they would be massively unique compared to the light differences in Space Marine factions.

If only they would... seriously, I'd like to see some real Chaos love, but that's on GW, not the slowly shrinking loyalist divergent Codices.

Did Rune Priests get nerfed hard? Yeah, they got it pretty darn good, but so did a lot of other things too. Njal is pretty much just a waste of points, no more multiple HQs in one slot, and goodbye to the entire Space Wolf powers page.

I'd say the Wolves took a really stupid hit. Sure they're a cheese factory, but at least they were the most unique Marines and by far some of the best models. Now? I don't think I'd bother with much more than a few Wolf Guard in a diorama box...


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Also, I played against a lot of Rune Priests and Njal, and my games were pretty much 50/50, which is good, you don't want to win or lose too often or it gets boring. Honestly I can't say any of the SW powers ever really made me worry except for Jaws and maaybe if Living Lightning was rolling good against a weaker unit, then that would make me cringe but the Geri an Freki power was weak, and so were most other SW powers. Nerfing them now only serves to piss off SW fans. Why bother with a FAQ, just hurry up and write the next codex!

The thousand sons being a 1000 strong has been retconned, the raven guard are categorically stated as being the smallest legion at 80,000 marines, so Pre heresy wolves had more than that, so did thousand sons, it remains to be seen if it's a mistake and will be.changed back.

 Formosa wrote:
The thousand sons being a 1000 strong has been retconned, the raven guard are categorically stated as being the smallest legion at 80,000 marines, so Pre heresy wolves had more than that, so did thousand sons, it remains to be seen if it's a mistake and will be.changed back.

Current fluff did have the thousand sons reduced to 1k, twice.

darkcloak wrote:
Did Rune Priests get nerfed hard? Yeah, they got it pretty darn good, but so did a lot of other things too. Njal is pretty much just a waste of points, no more multiple HQs in one slot, and goodbye to the entire Space Wolf powers page

I couldn't find the no more multiple HQ spot rule change anywhere, could you let me know where you found this?

 RiTides wrote:
Poll seems pretty clear, 2/3 (66%) of people voting it was OP

Whether or not it still was, with how it owned 5th ed, you couldn't have expected a very different reaction.

Tht poll can't account for anything. Most of it is people that prob use MCs or low Inninitive armies and get melted so they think it's OP. Whether it is op or not GW should not have taken the ENTIRE psyik power list from the codex without giving something in return. They literally made an entire codex obsolete because of this one change. It's fine if GW wants to change them, but it should have been changed in the updated codex not the first FAQ to births street.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
The thousand sons being a 1000 strong has been retconned, the raven guard are categorically stated as being the smallest legion at 80,000 marines, so Pre heresy wolves had more than that, so did thousand sons, it remains to be seen if it's a mistake and will be.changed back.

Current fluff did have the thousand sons reduced to 1k, twice.

Not until the end of Prospero, at which point they were reduced to 1k I believe.


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Kal-El wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Poll seems pretty clear, 2/3 (66%) of people voting it was OP

Whether or not it still was, with how it owned 5th ed, you couldn't have expected a very different reaction.

Tht poll can't account for anything. Most of it is people that prob use MCs or low Inninitive armies and get melted so they think it's OP. Whether it is op or not GW should not have taken the ENTIRE psyik power list from the codex without giving something in return. They literally made an entire codex obsolete because of this one change. It's fine if GW wants to change them, but it should have been changed in the updated codex not the first FAQ to births street.

I voted OP, and my main army is Space Wolves. A power which easily slays multiple enemy models without taking into account wounds, eternal warrior, armour saves, etc simply should not exist. As for the psychic charts - they simply do not fit in with the new psychic phase rules. GW expects us to randomly roll for our powers now and get ahold of primaris powers, and that simply cannot be done with the old powers. Divination has been the shizzle all through 6th anyway.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
The thousand sons being a 1000 strong has been retconned, the raven guard are categorically stated as being the smallest legion at 80,000 marines, so Pre heresy wolves had more than that, so did thousand sons, it remains to be seen if it's a mistake and will be.changed back.

Current fluff did have the thousand sons reduced to 1k, twice.

Not until the end of Prospero, at which point they were reduced to 1k I believe.

They were 1k when Magnus joined them. Thus the name.

 Formosa wrote:
The thousand sons being a 1000 strong has been retconned, the raven guard are categorically stated as being the smallest legion at 80,000 marines, so Pre heresy wolves had more than that, so did thousand sons, it remains to be seen if it's a mistake and will be.changed back.

Not ret-conned, exactly. They began as a full-size legion like all the rest, but due to the Flesh Change, casualties, and other calamities, there were several points in their history where they numbered only 1000 Marines.

It's not like the Legion was ever only 1000 Marines, no more no less, it's just that life was not at all kind to the the Sons, and so they suffered heavy losses, rebuilt, and then suffered heavy losses... again and again and again.

Been awhile Dakka Dakka...how I sorta missed ya. Any who onto the topic....

1.I'm a proud Space Wolf player who loves pretty much everything about em. Dig what they usually stand for and love their fluff. Can't get enough of it. Now in other threads I've argued funny enough with at least three of the current posters to this thread. Which gentlemen nice to see ya again for a possible repeating session of bashing heads into one another.

2. I'll openly say this while I'll passionately defend Space Wolves at the drop of a hat I can also rip em a new one and know their faults. I don't like Rune Priest on the table top. Or to be exact I don't like how people see them. I don't like how people place them so high up in comparison to the other choices and usually for competitive reasons. Which I'll say now...Me and competitive people never get along and it usually always comes down to a full blown argument. Especially when Math-hammer is brought in. But while I don't like them I don't think they really needed to lose their powers and pretty much agree with the supporters who brought up the quick ways to fix them and make them still good while also making them 7th Edition friendly.

Are they OP? To be honest they only seem like[WARNING THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT DOESN'T GO OUT TO ALL BUT THE FEW WHO DO MORE COMPLAINING THEN ANY OTHER. WHO SAY THE SAME THING BELIEVING IT TO BEING UNSTOPPABLE WHEN IN REALTY IT REALLY ISN'T. WHILE ALSO NOT BEING GAME BREAKING. END OF DISCLAIMER] that to those who have an army that banks on Psychic shenanigans and are overly competitive and focus way too much to that aspect of the game. But not everyone sees it like that and hey I'll openly say that yeah I can see how it was a bit much. Yet still there are things far worse in the game and yet there isn't as much hate. Hmmm I sooooo wonder why...

3.12 Great Companies each, as said in the 5th edition Codex, having different number of marines in them. Enough to where each Great Company, as further illiustarted by later released of info could be considered their own chapters due to their sizes and how self efficient each was. So no there isn't just aroun 200 or so in each. it has gone to 500 and above while also yes having the already established amount for some of the companies. While they aren't at the Black Templar level Space Wolves do have a decent number without being below or monstrously above another chapter. This I'm willing to agree with Psienesis about thanks to the novels and preexisting battles with the Months of Shame & Battle of the Fang. These having yes killed off most of the Rune Priests along with a good number of ships and Wolves while also killing off a lot of GKs as well.

4.The whole SM+1 stick is sorta getting old now. Normal Marines have a good number of stuff as an old argument has already established while also being in an endless loop. They are both still +3 save armys that have more or less the same stuff and, while Space Wolves have their one trick puppys, SM have their ice cream truck full of different flavors. To deny that would be ignorant and complete disregard for SM and just proving to be on a vendetta against the wolves.

5. is the hobby truly dying to where people want and support the lack of flavor among SM? BA? DA? SW? Why does the SW have to be brought in line with normal Liberians? While do SW have to be brought in line with their brothers? The purpose of different chapters is more then just for the game aspet, it's also for the narrative and fun that others enjoy. Competitive play is no way to look at an army or to build a HOBBY on. SWs losing flavor would kill it for many. So while yeah I don't play RP all that much and actually prefer Logan, Arjac, Ulrik, Bjorn, Njal and soon Ragnar and Canis and hopefully Lukas. Fact is SWs still have their fangs and claws. So they lost a tooth...this wolf still has plenty of teeth and it just means hey find a new way to play! I'll miss the powers...I liked em...But they weren't really what defined the Wolves. The fluff, aspect and means of how they do battle was what shaped them. So if we can't have crazy storms and stuff who cares? We'll bring the storm with Bolter fire and charging Wolves big enough to eat a tank!

Back to Poster: I'm agreeing with one of the former posters in I want to see more viking stuff in the SW. See them, BA and Orks bring the Assault back to 40K while also finding a good center ground between the Psychic Phase, Shooting and Assault. For the Wolves to be the Jack of All trades and have plenty of fun fluffy and for those who thrive on it yes even some competitive options. I think yes the Rune Priest stuff was a bit crazy but it didn't need to get hit like it did. Yes it robs us of fluff. But we still have other viable options and it's not impossible for us to fight. Just means some people who relied heavily on Jotww will have to find a new trick. Those that used different powers I feel for ya but hey there are tables that can give you the same and hey forge the narrative like GW says! Make up your own head cannon for what your Priest is doing! This hole RP thing is a bump. SW are still playable and viable and for some people they'll just need to find new tactics. We do still have plenty of fluff and flavorful characters after all.

End of Input.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
The thousand sons being a 1000 strong has been retconned, the raven guard are categorically stated as being the smallest legion at 80,000 marines, so Pre heresy wolves had more than that, so did thousand sons, it remains to be seen if it's a mistake and will be.changed back.

Not ret-conned, exactly. They began as a full-size legion like all the rest, but due to the Flesh Change, casualties, and other calamities, there were several points in their history where they numbered only 1000 Marines.

It's not like the Legion was ever only 1000 Marines, no more no less, it's just that life was not at all kind to the the Sons, and so they suffered heavy losses, rebuilt, and then suffered heavy losses... again and again and again.

Yeah that's the way I see it, people seem to hold the belief that they were 1k forever, that makes no sense and fw thankfully have fixes that, remains to be seen foe how long though.

My problem isn't the fact they took the powers, it's more of when they took the powers. All those other codex books have their codex powers AND the core rule powers. SW should have gotten to keep the powers until their updated codex came out.

All this will be null void though if the codex is the next out.

See here is the thing, I don't think SW will be getting an updated codex any time soon. If the Wolves were getting a codex this year don't you think the FAQ would have been less brutal?

Look at the previous FAQ, that one allowed RPs to roll on powers from the same charts as Libbys, and it kept their SW powers. Could have just added in the Daemonology trait and been done with it. Unless of course you don't have any plans to update the Wolves yet, then you do kind of have to do something to make them more compatible with the new psyker phase, because after all, it's going to be on the backburner for awhile.

I'm sorry to say it but I think this FAQ means that we won't be seeing a new dex for any of the FAQ'd Factions... say that a few times out loud, for at least a year or so. Why FAQ the next project, unless it's some form of psuedo-playtesting...

To respond to Wolf Lord Kevin, I agree with what you're saying, but honestly I just can't get behind the idea that ANY of the SW powers were all that impressive. I mean, yes they were okay and situations made certain spells awesome, but on the whole I can't say they had any definitive edge over any other psyker.

Plus, and correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Rune Priests subject to the same "no cookie cutter copies" rule that encompasses all SW HQs and Characters? This would mean that if some one is running 2 RPs, they would have had to choose entirely different powers from one another, so no 2x Jaws!

darkcloak wrote:
Plus, and correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Rune Priests subject to the same "no cookie cutter copies" rule that encompasses all SW HQs and Characters? This would mean that if some one is running 2 RPs, they would have had to choose entirely different powers from one another, so no 2x Jaws!

Jaws and Living Lightning on one, Jaws and Murderous Hurricane on the other. Not the same loadout, so completely legal.

darkcloak wrote:
See here is the thing, I don't think SW will be getting an updated codex any time soon. If the Wolves were getting a codex this year don't you think the FAQ would have been less brutal?

Look at the previous FAQ, that one allowed RPs to roll on powers from the same charts as Libbys, and it kept their SW powers. Could have just added in the Daemonology trait and been done with it. Unless of course you don't have any plans to update the Wolves yet, then you do kind of have to do something to make them more compatible with the new psyker phase, because after all, it's going to be on the backburner for awhile.

I'm sorry to say it but I think this FAQ means that we won't be seeing a new dex for any of the FAQ'd Factions... say that a few times out loud, for at least a year or so. Why FAQ the next project, unless it's some form of psuedo-playtesting...

To respond to Wolf Lord Kevin, I agree with what you're saying, but honestly I just can't get behind the idea that ANY of the SW powers were all that impressive. I mean, yes they were okay and situations made certain spells awesome, but on the whole I can't say they had any definitive edge over any other psyker.

Plus, and correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Rune Priests subject to the same "no cookie cutter copies" rule that encompasses all SW HQs and Characters? This would mean that if some one is running 2 RPs, they would have had to choose entirely different powers from one another, so no 2x Jaws!

They released an FAQ because they haven't released a new Codex yet, simply put. Sure, they could release one a week from now, but until then players need an FAQ in order to actually play with their army. FAQs seem to be written by a different set of writers too - I remember the first 6th FAQ gave Kharn the Betrayer a power axe (so hit at I1). Less than a month later, Kharn was back to swinging at his regular initiative with his super power axe. There's no real future logic to an FAQ than to patch the current book for the time being... otherwise FAQs would change points values on all our units and equipment to keep them balanced.

Glad to see it and jotww gone. Staff was basically 5th psychic hood. Should have been changed in 6th.

3.12 Great Companies each, as said in the 5th edition Codex, having different number of marines in them. Enough to where each Great Company, as further illiustarted by later released of info could be considered their own chapters due to their sizes and how self efficient each was. So no there isn't just aroun 200 or so in each. it has gone to 500 and above while also yes having the already established amount for some of the companies. While they aren't at the Black Templar level Space Wolves do have a decent number without being below or monstrously above another chapter

The second biggest in size is "Almost 200" in the current era, which is Ragnar Blackmanes Great Company (As listed in Codex Space Wolves), thus by logical deduction aside from the 1st size of Logan Grimnar's Company, the rest are below "almost 200" listed in the codex itself.

Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:3.12 Great Companies each, as said in the 5th edition Codex, having different number of marines in them. Enough to where each Great Company, as further illiustarted by later released of info could be considered their own chapters due to their sizes and how self efficient each was. So no there isn't just aroun 200 or so in each. it has gone to 500 and above while also yes having the already established amount for some of the companies. While they aren't at the Black Templar level Space Wolves do have a decent number without being below or monstrously above another chapter. This I'm willing to agree with Psienesis about thanks to the novels and preexisting battles with the Months of Shame & Battle of the Fang. These having yes killed off most of the Rune Priests along with a good number of ships and Wolves while also killing off a lot of GKs as well.

As pointed out above, the second-largest GC is noted as having 200 Marines (that's Ragnar's GC). Even if we are very generous and give 10 of the remaining 11 GCs 199 Marines each, and give the Great Wolf's GC over twice as many Marines as the second-largest GC (giving Logan 500 Marines in his GC... which is laughably overstating its numbers, but stick with me here)...

We end up with 2690 Space Wolves. That's 2.5 Chapters worth of Marines... but we know that this is an over-inflated number of Wolves if we're given the example of "second-largest" Great Company being 200 Marines. It is far more likely that the 10 GCs smaller than Ragnar's number around 100 Marines (otherwise, having 200 wouldn't seem so impressive), 150 at the most. We're not given a headcount for Logan's Great Company, but let's be generous and give him 300 Marines.

So let's continue to be generous, and go with 150 Marines per GC, plus 200 in Ragnars, plus 300 in Logan's... and we get 2000 Space Wolves. That's twice the size of any Codex-adherent Chapter... but it's definitely nowhere near Black Templars headcount, and, even without the losses of their "recent" actions, the numbers we're provided simply don't support the idea that each Great Company gets anywhere near 1000 Space Wolves at a time.

It is far more likely that the 10 GCs smaller than Ragnar's number around 100 Marines (otherwise, having 200 wouldn't seem so impressive), 150 at the most. We're not given a headcount for Logan's Great Company, but let's be generous and give him 300 Marines.

Actually there were mentioned at times to be around 50 in some of the stories, though I've heard as low as 10.

So I estimate about around 1500 myself, maybe 1750.

And they'd still be lower then most chaos warbands.

But yeah, I'm in support of them losing their unique psyker abilities.