This is one of those absurd situations where I like to think that as the mawloc bursts out from the ground, his giant, distendable jaw actually distends to somewhere near the size of the blast template and swallows up everything it can catch while spewing acid and electrical discharge all over the place in an explosion of dirt, concrete, blood and tyranid ichor.

I like to think that the guys in the tank next to the victim tank exchange uneasy looks at the Chimera next to them starts to shake and blood curdling screams are heard from within, and a few moments later the Mawloc does his Alien impression, with the Chimera as the poor dude's chest.

I know the biggest strength of Termagants is their low cost, but I saw a guy at my LGS have a Spore Pod crap out 20 w/ Devourers and pour 60 S4 shots into a guys marines. It was bad. Can't imagine if he shot something w/ less than a 3+ save.

The most interesting about htis thread, is the experience with the tyrannofex.
Dakkadakka is the only forum in which some people think that the TFex is a viable option. Whats the reason?

Do all the others only parroting what others say and are the dakkdakka users the only ones who actually tested the TFexes? Or are the dakkadakka user no competitive players who dont know whats really effective?

What i would like to say, could you please tell me/us more about the specific performance of the TFex? And if you have to field at least 2 of them etc.

I really want to field one, but they are costly and dont have that many shots (4+).

Hive2003 wrote:The most interesting about htis thread, is the experience with the tyrannofex.
Dakkadakka is the only forum in which some people think that the TFex is a viable option. Whats the reason?

I really want to field one, but they are costly and dont have that many shots (4+).

I initially dismissed them as too expensive but have been looking again since others suggested them. If you think of them as an upgraded Carnifex they are not too bad. We all know the Carnifex is overcosted, but the T'fex seems slightly less overcosted since the Rupture Cannon is better than the HVC.

If we take -
265 Points T'Fex with Rupture Cannon, Cluster Spines, Thorax Swarm & Armoured Shell
200 Points Carnifex with Hvy Venom Cannon & TL Deathspitter

From the Hive Tyrant entry the cost to add a Thorax Swarm & Armoured Shell is 65 Points which makes them the same cost. We then spend Zero Points to swap three points of Strength and an Attack for two Wounds and a point of Leadership. Loosing the attack is a shame but for 50% more wounds I would happily trade the Strength. The Cluster Spines are equivalent to TL Deathspitter and the Rupture Cannon is just better than the HVC.

you can only chose a thorax swarm /or/ extra armor, not both (on a HT)

Hive2003 wrote:The most interesting about htis thread, is the experience with the tyrannofex.
Dakkadakka is the only forum in which some people think that the TFex is a viable option. Whats the reason?

Do all the others only parroting what others say and are the dakkdakka users the only ones who actually tested the TFexes? Or are the dakkadakka user no competitive players who dont know whats really effective?

What i would like to say, could you please tell me/us more about the specific performance of the TFex? And if you have to field at least 2 of them etc.

I really want to field one, but they are costly and dont have that many shots (4+).

I played 2 this weekend in a 1500 point game against tau. Before my hive guard could get in range the tyrannofexes popped two devilfish and in the process one FW squad fell back off table. They then kept the hammerhead shaken the rest of the game. Had the game gone beyond turn 5 -- one of my tfexes was in position to contest or clear an objective of scoring FWs. I don't expect that kind of performance every game but the ability to hit targets from 48" out make them very useful in a tyranid army.

I think people are looking at them as 2 S10 shots at 265, and missing their ability to pound infantry at short range or their high resilincy in the current meta where most everyone is taking melta or autocannons.

Hive2003 wrote:The most interesting about htis thread, is the experience with the tyrannofex.
Dakkadakka is the only forum in which some people think that the TFex is a viable option. Whats the reason?

Have lists appeared on another forum that have cracked the issue of AV14?

Zoeys eat up Elite slots and after Spodding in will either be mown down by lasguns after getting one round of fire, or slaughtered by a Daemonhunter as they poke their heads out.

Carnifexes will pop a LR if they get close enough, only to be smacked down by Thunder Hammers.

I only play "friendly" games locally, no real tournament-level stuff. So far I've played 1250 and 1500 point games and it's been a mix of wins and losses. Both losses were due to me screwing up trying to get to an objective and the game ended at turn 5.

MVPs have been Zoanthropes (killed a LRR and a Defiler, one game they didnt do much due to my own crappy deployment), Tyranid Warriors with Deathspitters and Tyranid Prime (awesome unit, it has never been wiped out even vs some nasty stuff) and the Trygon (killed a whole unit of berzerkers that charged it - eventually!, almost a full unit of assault termis with TH's - got those down to 1 guy before it died).

I have a question: I'm looking at the Venomthrope. What unit(s) do you think benefits most from that 5+ save? Most of the guys I place high value on protecting already have superior saves. Is that mostly good vs range attacks that ignore armor?

The T-Fex has been discussedh ere because some very competitive players are trying to build very competitive lists for large tournaments. The current trends in those tournaments tend towards Mechanized armies and AV14/Land Raiders. Because the contents of a Land Raider can smash their way through your big bugs if they're allowed to base them (which the LR enables by tankshocking the Gaunt screen) then you're going to be very hard pressed to win a game. If a Land Raider is not included, there will pretty much certainly be some tanks with very potent long range weapons on them hiding in the opposing backfield. The T-Fex pressures them from turn 1 and gives you a chance to stop their scary guns early on, without having to close a lot of distance and take some serious shelling first. For these reasons (and others, but those are the main ones) the T-Fex is a worthwhile consideration for a very competitive Tyranid army.

Just because a few of us on here are running them doesn't mean we like them though. I think at this point no one woul be happy about paying 265pts for the guy. He just fills what some of us see as a very crucial role and thus far, we haven't found his high points cost to be not worth it because of that.

This is a TACTICS forum, not rules. I'm going to go back and clear out all rules-related posts. There's already a thread on this in YMDC, so take the discussion there.

Any further discussion of rules debates in this thread will result in disciplinary action.

You should probably clarify rules debates in that first statement then. It's a bit difficult to discuss tactics involving the use of a model if you can't bring up it's rules and their interactions.

Content- The Tyrannofex seems to be the replacement to the ubiquitous gun-fex from last edition. He arguably does what the old gun-fex did better, especially because he can actually destroy vehicles if you roll well enough. The issue is that he isn't absolutely necessary when you also have warp-lancing Zoanthropes and Hive Guard, as well as his very high cost. I think his real advantage comes in the range of his cannon, and how that allows him to do his job without getting gunned down by the nasty, nasty nasty short ranged fire that many armies have these days. Of course this just makes him a high priority target for lascannons and whatever else can reach out and touch him, and his secondary weapons will probably never see use if you keep him at maximum range. The other guys don't pay points for extra abilities they probably won't use but then are vulnerable with the shorter ranged attacks.

Railguns wrote:You should probably clarify rules debates in that first statement then. It's a bit difficult to discuss tactics involving the use of a model if you can't bring up it's rules and their interactions.

Sorry, yes, rules debates is what I meant.

I think the Tyrannofex is a lot more than just long-ranged antitank. It's a versatile unit -- in fact, it's about as versatile as marine tactical squad, or more versatile, in some respects. You have long-ranged antitank that's better than the sit-in-the-backfield solo lascannon a tac squad might take, and that can move, too. You have short-ranged anti-infantry shooting, and even a flamer-like template weapon. You're not the most powerful close combat unit around, but you can certainly do close combat perfectly well. You're almost certainly more durable than a tac squad -- sure, you have fewer wounds, but you do have much higher toughness and more armour. In some games, sure, you may just sit him at the back & shoot tanks for most of the game -- but in others, you're going to be walking him up and doing other stuff once the tanks are cracked open.

Not to mention the fact that his abilities at close range make him an extremely daunting prospect for deep striking units. It'll take a lot to take him out quickly.

Im not a big fan of the tyrannofex.

havent used one, but im going to stick with a carnifex in pod for a while.

I see the obvious about the T FEx, but i dont know...

There are 3 options:

1. the few dakkadakka users who actually tested him are wrong, or not really competitive

2. dakkadakka users are the only one who really tested him.

3. other metas...


That thing ist about 265 points, its slow and dont have a lot of output. Land Raider hunting? I dont think so, 4+/5+ isnt very reliable if you ask me...
Are they only "good" in pairs?
And anti infantry isnt an argument, Nids dont need the T Fex for anti Infantry...


But perhaps i should give it a try and play him the next few Games...

What are these other sites? Are there nid focused sites?

Most of the German sites.

40k online, Warseer etc.

40konline gets almost no traffic compared to here. I post on there more but they have so few non eldar or ork players its crazy. Warseer is poop, and i dont read german well enough to use a german site.

Mh nontheless there are a lot of competitive players and no one is even considering the big Fexes.
So lets be fair and dont hate on other sites.


If there are no more arguments than the posted ones, i think a have to test him for myself. But the theory tells me, that they are not worth their points...

Thats what I feel.

They are crap for blowing up enemy tanks.
However as a suppression unit they seem to be very good. Considering your only way to stop it from shooting is to kill it, and with its toughness thats not likely.

Death leaper. rending 5 omgomgomg

Meh, im not impressed with deathleaper at all. For around his points I can get 2 thropes in a pod or 3 hive guard, both of which will be better all around. I can also buy a squad of 28 gargoyles, to make my opponent have horrible morrowind flashbacks and win through psychological warfare.

I think deathleaper really depends on what you face in general. Against SM that like to run their librarian/rune preists and eldar with Eldrad/farseer it's pretty much a no-brainer.

However if you don't run into those armies very often or don't attend hardcore tournaments then I think it's safe to say Deathleaper will be kept in the box rather than on the table. The slot he takes up is valuable...far too valuable to be wasted.

Hive2003 wrote:That thing ist about 265 points, its slow and dont have a lot of output. Land Raider hunting? I dont think so, 4+/5+ isnt very reliable if you ask me...
Are they only "good" in pairs?

I've explained before why its important to run two t-fexes, but I'll go again. Following some simple math, we see that every turn my 4 rupture shots will account for one roll on the damage chart. It is twice as likely to be a pen as it is a glance, and even a glance can immobilize. It is pretty likely that over 2 rounds of shooting, I will get two rolls on the pen table. Which means its pretty likely that your raider will be immobilized or dead. Not assured, not "for sure gonna happen" but indeed a healthy likelihood. I use the term "the clock" to describe the psychology of that kind of math. What it means is, the space marine player has a certain amount of confidence in how long he is going to have his land raider, and it is likely the first two turns of the game. Every turn after that, he is less and less likely to have access to it.

Now that we have established that... lets follow it up with another important fact. The outcome of a gant-farm versus thss termie marine list will be decided by one unit alone. The terminator will either make good charges and win the game for the marines, or they will get hung up and ground out by supergants. Since we both know this, the nid player attempts to use gant screens to block the doors of tank shocking land raiders, thereby denying a charge on either the tervigon or the t-fex, and the marine player attempts to thin out the gant units enough so that a tank shock followed by round of shooting by supporting elements will open a charge lane up.

Space marine firepower is certainly adequate to do the job, given enough time. It is vitally important that they be pressured enough so that they don't have that time. They can't allow their terminators to not declare a charge, so they will have to either declare a charge on gants with terminators, or unload full spreads of LRC firepower into the gant screen and hope to the emperor that the t-fex doesn't blow up the unsmoked land raider.

I have already lost games to thunderhammer terminators, and I have already won multiple games against them. Whenever they got past the gant screen they won, and whenever they didn't, well, they didn't.... However, in the first game I faced against them, my opponent had absolutely no incentive to commit his land raider until my gants were thinned out Because my only land raider kill was a pair of carnifexes, waiting behind a gant screen to counter-charge the land raider. He kept moving 12" staying away from any monstrous creature assaults, and thinned my gants with everything else he had, soon enough, only a thin screen of 11 gants were blocking the tervigon charge, he then casually moved up, debarked the terminators, shot with the LRC and nearby support units until those 11 gants had removed enough casualties to open a charge lane, then the tervigon got exploded, which accounted for another two full units of newly born termagants. Instant GG. If LRCs can't get handled, then forget it.

Can zoanthropes do the job? Maybe... they might show up on time, they might pass the hood/rune weapon, they might pass the smoke... You are giving up your hive guard to do it, but I think it is valid to say that they can also kill land raiders. But in my neighborhood, if you see a land raider, there is either a runepriest or a librarian inside, and it is going to pop smoke after its first movement phase, of course this affects both the t-fex and the zoanthropes equally, but after the zoans arrive, they are going to be scooped right back into your army case, whereas marines don't have a good answer for t-fexes from range. I just prefer a less counter-able, more consistent approach. I'm conservative that way. Now if I could find another way to have any kind of game against IG without running mass catalysted hive guard, I could run 9 zoanthropes, but knowing that I have to have an answer for both 12+ armor 12 vehicles AND 1-2 land raiders full of nid kryptonite in a single metagame, leaves me no option but to flll up on hive guard and get my land raider "clock" from a differrent slot. I even ran some numbers on how many HVC shots I'd need to get that pressure on land raiders, it was way too cost prohibitive. Point for point, rupture cannons are the cheapest penetrating hit on a land raider, even when compared to the harpy.

Hive2003 wrote:But perhaps i should give it a try and play him the next few Games...

This should always be your first step. Play experience, both with and without the t-fex is what convinced me of its efficacy, not theory-hammer.

I think it's misleading to look at the T-fex on its own merits and judge if it's worth the points; it has to be borne in mind what it brings to the list as a whole.

In an army with one other ranged antitank competing for force org slots with other powerful units, it's an expense that can be justified. Spodding in a unit of Zoeys can probably get a LR kill, in return getting your highly visible models shot to pieces and forfeiting 2KP (and if there's a Daemonhunter around, you won't even get a shot off). Oh, and I suppose you could try and have a Carnifex run the Plasmagun gauntlet to try to reach the tanks, if you don't mind the Terminators inside pwning what's left of you senseless should you score a touchdown.

Most other armies have a lot of options for dealing with AV14. The Tyranids have a suicidal Zoey unit, suicidal Carnifexes, or the T-fex. In an army with deepstriking Melta guns, charging deepstrikers with Meltabombs, lances or lascannons galore, or mega artillery, the T-fex would be difficult to justify for its points. In a Tyranid army, it serves as both your ONLY long-ranged AT unit, your ONLY AT unit that doesn't expose itself to great danger in its role, and also as a bullet sponge tempting Lascannons away from OHKO'ing Warriors.

As someone who enjoys playing horde more than Nidzilla, if anyone can come up with a build that doesn't sink points into T-fexes and can give a LR/mech Guard list a decent fight I want to see it.

I will now replace my podding carnifex with a T-fex for the next few games. Though I like the podding fex a lot.

Can I ask how many points you have been playing shep...I want to get practise with my list, but I can't really compare it if points values aren't the same. I'm not only going to try massed trygons, but ymgarl stealers as well.

I know they aren't really anti tank but I see some potential bonuses in glancing vehicles to death (well 1, but it can be quite big)...embarked units will be destroyed if their transport is wrecked. This, I believe, is where the swarm wins. I think if nids ever face nids the swarm has the advantage.

Lukus83 wrote:Can I ask how many points you have been playing shep...I want to get practise with my list, but I can't really compare it if points values aren't the same. I'm not only going to try massed trygons, but ymgarl stealers as well.

I know they aren't really anti tank but I see some potential bonuses in glancing vehicles to death (well 1, but it can be quite big)...embarked units will be destroyed if their transport is wrecked. This, I believe, is where the swarm wins. I think if nids ever face nids the swarm has the advantage.

1750....

I was searching for something along those same lines. I gave double scytal raveners a shot, in order to see if i could get enough crew stunned results on vehicles to either force the occupants out to shoot, or to keep them in place so that trygons could come in and smash them up. No, rending claws isn't better anti-vehicle for them, because I have noticed that since you can't charge off of a deep strike under any circumstances, players will get to react to your arrival, nearby vehicles will move cruising speed to get away from you, and further away vehicles will shoot at you. if they have any nearby flamer response units, they'll just kill you off anyway. It seems that raveners should be deployed traditionally, a turn 2 charge is much better than a possible turn 2 arrival.

I also tried spamming strength 5 shooting in pods, and even experimented with dakkafexes. The return fire you take from tourney armies when you are danger close and not killing their tanks consistently is far more than nids can handle. Just running 25mm based models is not tourney viable, having 180+ models on table will not see you finishing any games in the time-limit... and hormagaunts will not get enough models on tanks to kill them off, what follows is a bunch of flamer templates on the bunched up hormagaunts. Just remember this simple math. For strength 4 models attacking cruising vehicles, 1 in 36 attacks will glance... if you want to immobilize that vehicle, you'll need around 216 attacks.

In one of my test games against IG, my first arrival was two trygons and a full 5 man unit of raveners. The raveners ran into area terrain, but the two trygons both got extremely lucky and one wrecked a manticore and the other wrecked a chimera. I was thinking that there was maybe a chance. Three vendettas combined to completely kill off one of my trygons, 5 multi-lasers and 7 meltaguns converged on the other and killed him, and then a piddly platoon command squad moved up and covered my ravener unit with 4 regular flamer templates. By the end of that turn, I had nothing. And all we were waiting for was two more ravener units one more trygon and two big warrior units. Whatever combination of that came down, it was guaranteed to get removed before the next turn began, and i was just feeding him my units piece by piece.

As much as I like the concept of podding in screamer killers for tank hunting, I don't understand how 4 wounds is going to be better than 6 wounds. And i don't think i'd expect one bio-plasma shot to do any better than the shots the trygons took in that test game.

Ultimately i don't know why the smaller venom cannon couldn't have been strength 7, and why both had to retain their -1 to damage table. Mech has officially started to limit the amount of viable units that can be fielded in my metagame, and I don't think its out of the question for every army to have vehicle answers in every FO slot... Its unfortunate that close combatting vehicles can't be the answer (since those vehicles cost between 35-55 points, and you are trading a 200 point unit for it) and that many of the tyranid "anti-tank" suggestions are venom cannon related... single shot, strength 6 or 9 and a -1 to the table don't really help the situation.

That's why i don't 'love' my shooting core suggestion of 6 hive guard and 2 t-fexes, but I feel its neccessary for the typical opponents like eldar, IG, and marines...

I'm really surprised that the VC kept a modifier on the damage roll.

The reason the VC ever got the old "glance only" rule is because people complained about the VC's S8 AP3 Assault 2 (IIRC) profile in the 3rd ed. rulebook list. (Which on a side note goes to show you how far the game has come since that profile was considered highly abusive.) And here we're still stuck with that legacy a decade and three codices later. Why should a S9 gun capable of penetrating the heaviest AV in the game be less capable of wrecking a Chimera on its penetrating hit than a S5 Ogryn on its penetrating hit against the same Chimera? But it's not even about real-world sense, it's about a bad legacy issue that completely hamstrings the weapon.

This also underlines 40K's somewhat wonky and overly complicated mechanics, but that's OT.

Just wondering have you tried 3 T-fexes and slightly less elite anti-tank?

If you look closely you'll notice that both the Venom Cannon and Heavy Venom Cannon only get the -1 against non-Open Topped vehicles.

But then it's only there to Shake, Stun and Immobilize that Chimera until the S9 AP6 Heavy Twin-Linked Melta 4 munition carrying it can be brought to bear.

Linkdead wrote:Just wondering have you tried 3 T-fexes and slightly less elite anti-tank?

Not yet... next step is to see about adding a venomthrope unit... i'll probably do that this thursday in my next test game. I they work out, even decently, then we could all be more confident adding big bugs and removing screens.

gorgon wrote:I'm really surprised that the VC kept a modifier on the damage roll.

The reason the VC ever got the old "glance only" rule is because people complained about the VC's S8 AP3 Assault 2 (IIRC) profile in the 3rd ed. rulebook list. (Which on a side note goes to show you how far the game has come since that profile was considered highly abusive.) And here we're still stuck with that legacy a decade and three codices later. Why should a S9 gun capable of penetrating the heaviest AV in the game be less capable of wrecking a Chimera on its penetrating hit than a S5 Ogryn on its penetrating hit against the same Chimera? But it's not even about real-world sense, it's about a bad legacy issue that completely hamstrings the weapon.

This also underlines 40K's somewhat wonky and overly complicated mechanics, but that's OT.

Thank you. It isn't like we are going to go blowing armored companies off the table if venom cannons suddenly become un-nerfed.

Isn't there a thematic reason for VCs to be less effective against vehicles, though, in that they're shooting venom, for anti-infantry purposes?

I agree that there's no game balance need for them to be -1 on the damage chart, mind.

To anyone wondering Deathleaper is sold out so if you want one I was told it could be a couple of weeks.

Was nice of GW to send me a new DL (soon as they are back in stock) to replace the partial one I got (the one I ordered a couple of weeks ago is missing a head and his left leg). So I was going to run 3 Lictors this weekend in a brood and 1 DL. Now I'll have to proxy DL and cut the Lictor brood down to 2 and then make up the 65pts somewhere else.

So GW customer service is excellent. I get a whole new DL model and I have bits from the "almost complete" DL to customize something. Just a shame I won't get to try my original list (I could take something else to make up 140 but I want to try him out).

It's good to start seeing more level-headed discussion now that we are 20 some pages into it. LOL.

Ian Sturrock wrote:Isn't there a thematic reason for VCs to be less effective against vehicles, though, in that they're shooting venom, for anti-infantry purposes? .

But if you want it to do that you make it Str 7 AP 3 Poison 2+ or similar. So it is good at killing troops but a bit weaker vs tanks.

Lyracian wrote:

Ian Sturrock wrote:Isn't there a thematic reason for VCs to be less effective against vehicles, though, in that they're shooting venom, for anti-infantry purposes? .

But if you want it to do that you make it Str 7 AP 3 Poison 2+ or similar. So it is good at killing troops but a bit weaker vs tanks.

No, it's a venom cannon, not a poison cannon. Which are completely different things

It fires shards of crystalized, acid poison at super sonic speeds. The old old fluff for the gun talked about how incredibly Good it was at taking out tanks, because the crystals would pierce the tank, where they then shattered and shrapneled the crew. If that wasn't bad enough, they would melt soon after into a slimy acidic poison, killing any crew they had wounded, and melting any internal mechanical components they had come into contact with.

Sure, but in the old old rules it was a Lascannon with a Thudd-Gun template (that's a Thunderfire Cannon to you more recent people).

Was it the Venom Cannon, or a different `Nid gun, where in the old old rules you would keep rolling damage on the tank each turn after you had shot it? -1 to the roll for each turn after, but still. Who wouldn't love that now days?

I think that might have actually been the Barbed Strangler. I'm slightly disappointed that they didn't take my suggestion that Barbed Stranglers and similar weapons make difficult terrain, but them's the breaks.

It was Spore Mines that kept on damaging vehicles after gaining a foothold. Barbed Stranglers were totally different - IIRC they fired a single bolter equivalent shot at medium range, which if it wounded and beat armour inflicted instant death and then grabbed everything under a 6" template, removing them from play if they failed a Strength test on 2D6.

Also, Lictors were the only ones with Implant Attacks, Flesh Hooks acted as fishing lines, Gargoyles each carried a S3 flamer that inflicted two hits if you didn't move out of the way, Regeneration worked on a 4+, and Hormagaunts were the fastest footslogging unit in the universe.

No, the Barbed Strangler sucked vs tanks as I recall. It fired a single shot that was the equivalent of a Bolter, but if that shot caused a Wound then you put down a Large Blast template and anything it touched had to pass an Int test or was instantly killed regardless of armor/wounds/ect.

As I think about it more, I think it was the Exocrine's Bio-Cannon that did the continuous damage rolls.

P.S. Woooo! Nidstalgia!

Speaking of, remember when the Adrenal Gland allowed a Carnifex to run and also shoot its Bio-Plasma? Dominion actually lets you do that now. This whole Codex is a nostalgia trip.

Onslaught lets you run and shoot, Domination extends Synapse range to 18". Don't recall that version of Adrenals however.

I stand corrected on Dominion. Onslaught is what does it. Still, nifty.

lindsay40k wrote:

Lyracian wrote:

Ian Sturrock wrote:Isn't there a thematic reason for VCs to be less effective against vehicles, though, in that they're shooting venom, for anti-infantry purposes? .

But if you want it to do that you make it Str 7 AP 3 Poison 2+ or similar. So it is good at killing troops but a bit weaker vs tanks.

No, it's a venom cannon, not a poison cannon. Which are completely different things

Technically they are. Poison refers to anything that is deadly when ingested Venom refers to anything that is deadly when inflicted (usually through a bite or sting).

So a frog is poisonous but a cobra is venomous (some snakes are poisonous too! but cobras aren't)

I believe that distinction only holds true for animals though or else making arrows with poison dart frog poison wouldn't give you poisoned arrows but rather venomous arrows.

Nids are giant bugs though so technically those "poison" sacs should be "venom sacs".

Oh and a Toxin is any substance which is deadly when you merely come into contact with it so poison ivy is in fact toxic ivy.

Unless you go and e.... you know what? I'm not even going to suggest that that happens.

I do recall though that apparently assault cannons used to be the bane of Tyranids thanks to the sustained fire dice. I didn't play 2nd but thats what I heard.

Well, I believe they had krak missles stats but had 3 sustained fire.

So you could if you got lucky launch 18 assault cannon shots into anything. Even termies had to fear the assault cannon as its AS mod was like -5.

More often than not you rolled 3 jams instead of 3 6's but such is life.

And when you rolled 3 jams, it ASPLODED!

Sustained fire dice had two 1's, two 2's one 3, and one "jam"

the maximum number of shots was 9
rolling 3 jams resulted in the firer automatically dying.

They had a range of 32", got +1 to hit within 12" strength 8, D10 damage, -3 save modifier, so marines needed 6's to save against it, they rolled D6+D10+8 for armor penetration.

Also, Dreadnoughts ignored the first jam rolled on the sustained fire dice.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:

Lyracian wrote:

Ian Sturrock wrote:Isn't there a thematic reason for VCs to be less effective against vehicles, though, in that they're shooting venom, for anti-infantry purposes? .

But if you want it to do that you make it Str 7 AP 3 Poison 2+ or similar. So it is good at killing troops but a bit weaker vs tanks.

No, it's a venom cannon, not a poison cannon. Which are completely different things

Technically they are. Poison refers to anything that is deadly when ingested Venom refers to anything that is deadly when inflicted (usually through a bite or sting).

So a frog is poisonous but a cobra is venomous (some snakes are poisonous too! but cobras aren't)

I believe that distinction only holds true for animals though or else making arrows with poison dart frog poison wouldn't give you poisoned arrows but rather venomous arrows.

Nids are giant bugs though so technically those "poison" sacs should be "venom sacs".

Oh and a Toxin is any substance which is deadly when you merely come into contact with it so poison ivy is in fact toxic ivy.

Okay, is everyone clear on this? Don't eat the Tyranids!

Still nastier than it's ever been since than. I'd take the risk of rolling 3 jams if I could possibly fire off 9krak missles a turn -3 AS mod is equivalent to AP3 now.

LR's being left to the domain of T-fexes, MC CC & Zoanthropes..

What about standard lictors (packs of 2) for anti-armour. AV11-13 nearly always has rear AV10. Now zoanthropes come down in a Spod and will die after they shoot. Scattering is a bit random but with the new rules its not too bad.

What about fleshhooks? Str6 assault 2 rending, Marbo-esk "place anywhere" deployment (no scatter, extremely flexible).. Question is, is a minimal str6 (but near-guarenteed av10 targets) 2-shot weapon with rending going to be more effective than Zoanthropes for anti non-LR vehicles? Or am I just waay off as I've just noticed AP-

I think they aren't bad, it's just that the hive guard or zoanthropes are better for vehicle hunting. Although a brood of 3 is quite nice for taking the heat off some MC's if they deploy close to an infantry firebase. If they don't tackle them then next turn you can potentially assault and call in more DS stuff.

Razerous wrote:LR's being left to the domain of T-fexes, MC CC & Zoanthropes..

What about standard lictors (packs of 2) for anti-armour. AV11-13 nearly always has rear AV10. Now zoanthropes come down in a Spod and will die after they shoot. Scattering is a bit random but with the new rules its not too bad.

What about fleshhooks? Str6 assault 2 rending, Marbo-esk "place anywhere" deployment (no scatter, extremely flexible).. Question is, is a minimal str6 (but near-guarenteed av10 targets) 2-shot weapon with rending going to be more effective than Zoanthropes for anti non-LR vehicles? Or am I just waay off as I've just noticed AP-

If they rend, they are no longer 'ap:-'.

So only if you are shooting at av10 and roll a 4, will that 'ap:-' come into play.

Anyone try a Bug flying circus? I'm thinking of building something like that.

2 Flyrants or a Flyrant and Parasite

(these 3 mix how you like)
Gargoyles
Shrike unit
Harpy

Then fill in the rest with stuff, possibly spod in some gaunts, gants warriors or whatever else.

GG

I made a nice double flyrant 2 harpy list, all with heavy VC and screened by a unit of gargyles, You can replace a flyrant with the parasite. Add in a fes spore podding Darnifex(hurr hurr) or biovores for sporemining, and you can surround most armies by turn 4. Give it a try.

What have been the results of spodding large units of gaunts??

combined with winged, or cordinated drops of synapse beasties it could be useful.

Ok I just played my first two games with the new nids today and just thought Id post a few comments on what I thought about them. Especially the AT/usefullness of the Tyrannofex.

Just to clear a few things up, im not running a super optimized list. I just run what models I have/can proxy. My opponents are mostly casual too so not much power gaming going.

First I won both of them. First game was against a casual SW army, no Jaws. Second was against gunline guard.

Hive Tyrant- B. Solid B for this guy. He is a POINT SINK but he did what he was supposed to. He sat back and shot IG squads with his barbed strangler and blocked a tank lane in the SW game. I wasnt impressed with how much he costs vs his return. He didnt do bad but I feel like I could get the same result from a Prime and a group of Warriors. He did manage to get his Psychic Powers off on a Termi Squad which assaulted him. He died after 3 rounds of combat but managed to kill all 5of the termies and 1 wound left on logan.

Zoans in Pod- B+ Fell down, shot down a tank, then died. Did exactly what was expected. They evened out their points by destroying point equivalent tanks. Blew up a LR Executioner an a LR. Then promply got shot to death. I consider these guys the new Fire Dragons of the nids. However I feel like when I destroy a big ole tank I get more out of it then when they kill my zoans. As I am eliminating a bigger threat to my army as the zoans are a threat to theirs. Will use again.

Warriors- C+. Maybe it was my rolling or my opponents fear of them but he targeted them both games. So they did a little besides provide synapse and shoot some infantry. Id think that they can do more when they arnt focused as much. However when he was focusing these with his guys, he wasnt shooting my others.

Hormogaunts B+- Solid choice. Had them outflank, ate a squad of long fangs then ran most of the game to get back into synapse. Worth their points.

Gaunts- C-. I didnt use tervigons due to not having models for them. They performed best at what gaunts do. Screening and obj holding. Did little in the way of shooting or assault.

Genestealers- B. SW game I whiffed my outflank and they ran the whole game. IG game, his line was so saturated that either outflank roll was good. Managed to get a Heavy wep squad and one infantry squad before being shot down.

Tyrannofexs B+. These guys impressed me. While I only managed two pens the entire game they did have an unexpected value. Drop Pod deterrants. I could place them next to objectives and vulnrable units and watch them decimate any squad that came out with their ability to shoot three guns. In the IG game they just shot tanks from the back and shook/stunned most of the time. SW game my opponent poded right into them and got a nasty surprise. 3 guns from each pretty much decimated his squad. Id like to test these guys again, not only for their range but what they do for drop pod protection.

Trygon Prime- A+ This guy did absolutely amazing. SW game he came in a little late but managed to shoot down 2 termies. He was charged after that and wiped the other 3. Next turn he charges and blows up a LR. Guard game he pretty much sat in the back assaulting squad after squad of IG guys. He is an infantry killing machine. 12 shot gun and 7 attacks on the charge make him a beast. Ill be using him again.

I think I did well because I had such hard targets that all posed large threats. My opponent couldnt shoot most of it down. If he focused he left himself open to all the other threats, and if he spread fire out he didnt kill anything.

Side note, credit to my drop pod for killing a termie before having his butt handed to him.

Anyways just thought id share.

Interesting note about the Tyrannofex. I hadn't considered it as an objective holder, but it makes sense. Good find!

Some more notes:

-attaching an alpha warrior to a zoanathrope squad makes it reasonably hard to wipe them out in one shooting phase with s8-9 heavy weapons, expecially if you give it regen, it /may/ be worth a look but you are dropping 3 killpoints in your opponents back yard, if someone mathhammers is out and they can destroy /two/ tanks now instead of one it would be worth it I think, if only for the "omg kill it!" for 2 shooting phases instead of 1 giving the rest of your army some relief.

-reply to above: gaunts awesomeness is directly relational to their support, they aren't marines, dropping a pod in the open will get them all wiped out, putting them in cover is better, with cover and feel no pain they are probably the best shooting units for the points in the game.

-2 layers of gaunts in front of your tervigon helps against the "tank shock and terminator rush the tervi" nonsense

-gargoyles to surround transports and then popping them with zoans = win!

-biovores are pretty awesome, double-template+large blast tyrannofexes are pretty awesome too.

-spore mines are REALLY awesome, no one has touched on for 10-20 points you can deny your opponents infiltrate into 1-2 peices of cover by dropping a mine nearby.

Grundz wrote:gargoyles to surround transports and then popping them with zoans = win!

If by win you mean "Lots of of dead Gargoyles". AP1 makes an explosion way too likely IMO. However, popping them with Hive Guard in order to glance it to death or go for the wrecked result is definately something that might work.

Has anyone tried out the MC stampede? I'm thinking of something like this:

Swarmlord w/guards
Old Adversary fighting Tyrant w/guards
2 Trygons
Old One Eye
2 10 man Gaunt units
2 Tervigons
2 Venomthropes
2 Lictors
2 Lictors

It just runs up the board leaving a trail of spawned gaunts to creep onto objectives. All things are eaten by the monstrous throng.

How many points is that?

Gornall wrote:

Grundz wrote:gargoyles to surround transports and then popping them with zoans = win!

If by win you mean "Lots of of dead Gargoyles". AP1 makes an explosion way too likely IMO. However, popping them with Hive Guard in order to glance it to death or go for the wrecked result is definately something that might work.

ah, true, I didn't think of that, however in the game in question i was FNPing my gargs on the turn the transports started blowing.

Grundz wrote:-spore mines are REALLY awesome, no one has touched on for 10-20 points you can deny your opponents infiltrate into 1-2 peices of cover by dropping a mine nearby.

Feel free to tell us your thoughts on spore mines here.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/276129.page

GG

@Aduro: Not sure, think it fits in 2k, or almost does anyway. I don't have my codex here.

40kenthusiast wrote:Swarmlord w/guards
Old Adversary fighting Tyrant w/guards
2 Trygons
Old One Eye
2 10 man Gaunt units
2 Tervigons
2 Venomthropes
2 Lictors
2 Lictors

My "shooty" nid wall, is slowly morphing into something like this... Rather than outshoot the enemy, your shooting units need to just become less of a priority... your list may work, but I think that 48" range move and fire might get to hide almost indefinietely from you. Swapping in some tyrranofexes for the heavies you currently have might be the only change you need.

Check out this batrep to see how NOT beig aggressive with nids is probably not the way to go...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/276490.page#1291843

That's a fun looking list 40ke. Its about 2250 as listed, so would have to drop the tyrant or old one eye to get to 2k.

I think that 48" range move and fire might get to hide almost indefinietely from you.

Lictors help with that, especially with the rest bearing down on the enemy. I see that as their role --troubleshooting for the more agressive style army.

winterman wrote:Lictors help with that, especially with the rest bearing down on the enemy. I see that as their role --troubleshooting for the more agressive style army.

they do at that.... Hmmm. do my hive guard become lictors? Or do my t-fexes and hive guard become lictors and mawlocs? Such a fun codex!

Isn't it though!

Well this is my review after playing some test games and playing some against Tyranids.

HQs
Hive Tyrant - so expensive since he needs tyrant guard for surviability, but his make a unit ws1 power and prefered enemy complete the SUPER gaunt pacakage and if your running a peekaboo list you have to run him to get that +1 reserves roll His old armament of venom cannon and devourers is gimped. The Heavy Venom Cannon is a bad. Its worse then bs 3 las cannon with one shot and -1 to the damage table. MC Devourers don't seem worth it because you have to give up talons or bonesword which make you good in CC. Psyker powers are good like making enemy unit ws1 to assault them with super gaunts but range 12 so likely in Librarian hood range. You want him to complete the SUPER gaunt package at the very least but he is expensive and doesn't make his points back directly.
Rating: B+

Swarmlord - haven't actually tried him but he seems really expensive. I seen him used and he can be good if there is a city scape to give him cover but he takes awhile to see combat and its hard to make up his huge points cost when you have to buy him tyrant guard to keep him alive and he takes awhile to make it into close combat range. He does make gaunts super and can cast 2 psyker powers and kicks ass in assault with the ability to counter other hard assault units but is he worth the points.
Rating: B


Tyranid Prime - a cheap HQ who is pretty good in combat with boneswords and adds more wounds to hive guard, zoanthropes or venomthropes that aren't insta killed by strength 8. Haven't actually tired him with Warriors yet.
Rating A-



Elites
Hiveguard: Each unit of 3 gets 6 Strength 8 shots at 24 inches which has a good shot at taking out a transport or at least stunning it. Hive Guard also give much needed cover to your Tervigons behind them and get cover from the Gaunts in front of them.
Rating: A

Deathleaper: main reason to take him is he can give a psyker -d3 leadership so it is easier to get off your Catalyst through their psychic hoods and so the psyker isn't as effective in getting off certain nasty powers like Jaws of the Warp Wolf. He can pop up anywhere so can be used to pick of lone characters or to contest a corner. Has been somewhat lackluster when opponent does not have a psyker. Whether he is worth it really depends on how much psykers there are in your area and if you are taking Zoanthropes, Hive Tyrants and Tervigons that need to get their powers off through hoods.
Rating: B

Zoanthropes - They sound awesome on paper but I tried them and not very effective between Mystics, Hoods, Runic Weapons and the fact that they often get dead after you trade them for a transport. Good trade vs a Land Raider bad trade vs cheap transports. Been leaning towards Hive guard instead of Zoanthropes and just praying the T-fex comes through or bashing the land raider in CC. Might be worth running 1 unit just to kill Raiders but not even that reliable unless you run 3. You pod in, one gets blocked by the hood, maybe one misses or flubs the psyker test and the 3rd hits and has to pen and you get a kill half the time with AP1.
Rating: B-

Venomthropes - these are the easy mans cover from a custom force field. Not sure if they worth running since you can make your own cover but Shep got me to try them, they seem ok in that they give you a 5+ cover to your mcs when your cover giving gaunt wall or hive guard might have gotten shot up. They do get insta killed by strength 8 though and are not cheap.
Rating: B

elite stealers - No assault grenades and must start in terrain????? Wow these are terrible. Take Hive Guard, Deathleaper, Venonthropes and maybe Zoanthropes before them.
Rating: F

Troops
Termagaunts - These guys are so awesome in combination with a Tervigon and you are required to take a brood to take a troops Tervigon. optimal size is probably 20-25. 30 is great for maximizing attacks against uber units but might actually be too many as it can be hard to get all in 2 inches to fight and I found my deployment zone pretty cramped and they get hurt by templates. Maybe 20 is a better numaber. Although a large number is really good for overwelming terminators and marines. Go Go Super gaunts with furious charge, poison, feels no pain and prefered enemy. Two of these units of 20+ with 2 tervigons seems like the troops core. Only issue here is no grenades but what do you want for their cheap cost.
Rating: A

Tervigon: This guy is the man. He makes gaunts super and makes more gaunts and scores assuming you took a brood of termagaunts for him to make super. Has the following required upgrades. Adrenal Glands for furious charge, toxin sacs for poison, catalyst for giving out feels no pain (this can go to gaunts or it can go to hive guard or the terivgon depending on what type of fire power the opponent has), With a cover save from Hive Guard in front and possibly giving themselves FNP vs missle launcher spam they are tough to kill execpt to Jaws and concentrated fire. Crushing Claws and Regeneration are optional since he costs alot already.
Rating: A+


Warriors - Tried these guys and they reallly didn't do much having to hug cover to not just insta killed by strength 8+ and fairly pricey for what they do. Bonesword warriors seem decent but have to make it to close combat and get nailed by assault termintors. deathspitter warriors were pretty lackluster.
Rating: C

Hormagaunts - haven't tried them but they get no bonus from Tervigons and are more expensive then termagaunts so don't seem worth it.
Rating: NA

Genestealers - Tried these a couple games and they are terrible. these need to make up their points in one round when they come in vs outflank because they probably will get shot after that. No flesh hooks for grenades means you need to run a bigger squad since you might lose some before swinging assaulting things in cover so drives cost up and makes you more vulnerable if your opponent castles up in the middle.
Rating: F

Fast Attack
Gargoyles - might be worth trying because they are fast and cheapbut are not scoring and don't get benefit from Tervigons so I haven't tried them

Raveners - tried them but not very good the strength 8 insta kills hurt and they might not appear after the tunnel and not being able to assault the turn they pop up means they can get shot up before doinga nything.
Rating: F

Harpies - MC where Strength 10 insta kills them so they get smoked by Demolisher Cannons, Manticores, Tyranofexes. They also have a 4+ save so get owned by Auto Cannons. No thanks. Also the venom cannon is rather bad worse then bs 3 las cannon with its -1 to the damage table 3 attacks is also sort of gimp.

Heavy
Tryanofex - he is really expensive but he does the old gunfexs job of keep the opponents threatening vehicles shaken and hopefully kill them. Vendettas or Las cannon Predators are bad news the Tyranofex surpresses them just like the old Gunfex did. T-fex falls a bit short of the old gunfex because it costs more and lacks the barb strangler for anti horde or insta killing nob duty. Very expensive but no other way to keep Vendettas or predators from barbequing your Tervigons otherwise. sometimes seems not worth it when he misses twice or just doesn't get a kill all game but seems like might necessary points sink.
Rating: B+

The Try Gone (Trygon) pops up and TRYs by shoots some strength 5 and stuns a rhino and then gets shot and GONE. Bad in testing.
Rating: F unless you have 3 with 2 tyrants then a C+

The More Luck (Mawloc). You really need to cross your fingers and your toes for more luck with this guy as he pops up and probably scatters off its target or is one strength 6 hit on a vehicle vs rear armor 10 and unless you are really lucky he does nothing and then gets shot and gone. he can't even fight well either.
Rating: F

The screamer killer carnifex pods in and either stands around looking dumb as it gets shot to death and even if you don't get shot to death in one round vehicles can move faster then you and are hit on 6s if they move 12.
Rating: F

The dakka fex pods in stuns or maybe kills a vehicle and then get lit up and dead.
Rating: F

The gunfex doesn't exist anymore sniffle. :(

Biovores - these might be worth it for anti horde and killing back field units like lootas or 5 missle long fangs but need baby sitting of synapse and are no good vs all mech armies till you crack open a vehicle. finding points is also tough.
Rating: NA

Well I played a couple of test games on tuesday and wednesday. Tuesday my list was so bad I got hammered twice. Wednesday I made some adjustments and kicked some serious butt. It was only 1k, but I figure at 1.5k the list becomes absolutely lethal, and at 2k I may need to rethink some options. Here's the list:

Tyrant
Wings
Hive commnader
Paroxysm
Life leech

Doom of Malantai in a pod

Tervigon

11 gaunts

Trygon

Trygon

Everything starts in reserve (deepstriking lots ot stuff, Tervigon outflanks) in objective games...haven't played KP's yet.

Against a (bad) Eldar list I tabled him. Against Tau he had trouble bringing down 1 MC a turn. I played extremely aggressively and the only reason he could force a draw was because he could jump into range of the objective I was holding with gaunts (spawned by tervigon) and the doom. Against another army I feel it would be much more damaging.

Each unit is designed to help each other. Unfortunately I can't fit FnP on the tervigon, but I think in such an aggressive list thats ok. Doom really helps with area denial, and if they want to deal with him it has to be a heavy weapon. Once he starts absorbing wounds small arms fire won't do anything, so he takes away heavy weapons fire from the MC's. Paroxysm reduces losing wounds to devasators, IG blobs and Tau suits quite effectively.

So tyrannofexes aren't compulsory. BUT, I feel that this is one list that just doesn't need them. Tyrannofexes in footsloggers probably work better, but when you have everything DSing in (and in such small games) I think the slightly cheaper and more "in your face" trygons work better.

Why do people keep sayi g the Elite Stealers need to start in terrain? Their rules say the May start in terrain.

I don't know, but mine will be. I think they have potential to tie up/hurt units that could be shooting my MC's. Not every unit is going to be in cover, and with a potential 18" threat range they will have a lot of targets to choose.

I realized in a 3k non-Apoc game I can take 120 Stealers w/6 Broodlords all with Talons and Sacs, Tyranid Prime, Trygon and 3 Hive Guard/Zoanthropes or 6 Ymgarl to continue the theme.

Sure not a competitive list to be sure but it'd be damn fun to see that many 'stealers on the board, not to mention it would scare the crap out of my opponents.

Of course, they'd be able to take 6 land raiders, 30 terminators, and any and all special characters they wanted at 3000 points.

Horde armies with specialist anti-tank units don't scale up very well.

Lucky for me only one of my opponents has more than one LR and he has 2.

Terminators aren't all that frightening. TH/SS termies CAN be but the problem with them is that once their LR is wrecked they walk around all game.

Walking terminators with CC weapons aren't scary. SB/PF termies are but they die a lot easier in cc than Thunderstorm terminators.

I dont see why mawlocs get such bad rep. On an average scatter they should at least touch the edge of a vehicle with their large blast then its a 4+ for a glance (vs the rear armour of anything).

Outflanking hormagants. Moar troops, deployed away-away from the main engines of your army, very fast and very fighty.

Does anyone use the Tyrant offensively?

Had a couple games with the new book so far. One versus a Fire Warrior heavy Tau player and another against IG. Both were tooled to burn my bugs but both games went very differently. The Tau game was a rout. Utterly ridiculous, I won't even go into details. I just annihilated the poor blueface. Thanks to the Doom of Malantai (in Pod) for that. For the IG game, this is what I faced:

CCS in Chimera, all flamers
Vets in Chimera, all flamers
Vets in Chimera, all flamers
PCS in Chimera, all flamers
3x Infantry Squads, GL + HB
5x Stormies, 2 Plasmaguns
1x Sly Marbo
2x Hydras (separate units)
3x Leman Russes (squadron)

I used:

Prime, boneswords and regen
5x Warriors
20x Termigants
20x Termigants
2x Tervigons, sacs and glands
10x Genestealers in pod
3x Zoanthropes in pod
2x Venomthropes
3x Hive Guard

We rolled Dawn of War and Seize Ground (3 objectives) so I assumed the worst. He setup first, I setup nothing at all. It went seven turns. The fight was harsh but I won 2 to 0. Here's how I hate the team.

Tyranid Prime: B : I wanted a cheap HQ and he fit the bill. His increase of the Warriors BS assisted in mopping up Deep Strikers (Stormies and Sly) but otherwise he didnt do much. I also forgot I bought him Regeneration, which barely would have improved his survivability (which was high, he died turn seven leaving a single Warrior to hold my objective)

Warriors: C+ : As with the Prime, they didn't do much but draw a lot of fire. Which was fine since that sat in cover. Their volume of fire is enough that I will continue to take this group of five, naked, because they are just cheap enough to be reasonable to me. Granted, for 50 points more a SM player can get 5 Terminators but thats fine.

Termigants: B : They soaked up shots and burned up A LOT. This was fine with me since I needed bugs for my Tervigons to spit out (forgot my extra pile at home) but once the Tervigons hit menopause the Termigants stopped flooding the board. Since it was Dawn of War they had to foot-slog much farther than usual. In a normal game, they reach assaults, and with the Tervigons behind them, they get Furious Charge and Poison, so they have their ups.

Tervigons: B+ : This unit was great for throwing around Catalyst and Dominion, and giving a better "Without Number" than the last codex (primarily, IMHO, because you can deploy 6" ahead of the MC, then move 6" then mabe even assault 6"; instead of walking on from the board edge). Unfortunately, once my opponent downed one of the Mommas, 30 Termigants died. That rule is a real weakness, and something most opponents will exploit.

Genestealers: A- : They podded where I wanted, and wiped Guardsmen off an isolated objective. Nothing fancy, but they did they're job (in both games). Since okay in my book.

Zoanthropes: A+ : Podded behind the Russ squadron (and yes, my opponent pointed out since I have a Lance weapon I didnt need to drop behind him, but it was a force of habit from other armies) and nuked 2 right off. Since it was an objective game, my opponent forwent shooting them and focused on my bugs. For this, the Zoanthropes continued to harass and destroy more of his vehicles.

Venomthropes: B- : The cover save isn't all that spectacular and when my opponent got tired of it, he just wiped those two out. Plus since neither opponent would assault any unit under the Venomthropes' effects, I dont know yet how effective defensive grenades and the dangerous terrain test to assault is.

Hive Guard: B +: They did alright but I had a disagreement with my opponent over cover saves for vehicles shot by Hive Guard. I would rate them better or worse based on the result of this following discussion:

If a Vehicle, not in or touching terrain, is shot by Hive Guard that have no LOS to the vehicle; does the vehicle gain a 4+ cover save for being 100% obscured?

Thats my take on the book so far guys! Enjoy.

Aduro wrote:Why do people keep sayi g the Elite Stealers need to start in terrain? Their rules say the May start in terrain.

they don't have to, but its a nice bonus.

I don't see the big deal, you move them out of terrain and then assault something, no terrain test on the assault move generally so the grenades are moot The targets they are attacking are either 6" move vehicles or heavy weapon teams, not exactly something you are worried about losing cc against.

used them twice so far, both times to wreck backline tanks placed out of outflank range, they may not "make back points" which is what everyone seems to be obsessed with. but being able to reach, catch and destroy backline heavy weapons to give bigger critters some relief is worth the cost. A decently placed , large piece of terrain in your enemies backyard near the middle can give them a pretty good threat radius on the turn they deploy.

Hive Guard: B +: They did alright but I had a disagreement with my opponent over cover saves for vehicles shot by Hive Guard. I would rate them better or worse based on the result of this following discussion:

If a Vehicle, not in or touching terrain, is shot by Hive Guard that have no LOS to the vehicle; does the vehicle gain a 4+ cover save for being 100% obscured?

Thats my take on the book so far guys! Enjoy.

Alright had a few games with them. Pure nurgle chaos demons with tallyman are fething slowed against nids. Oh look I killed your gaunts everything now has 2+ to wound power weapons. Buh bye carnifex. So heres what ive used. All games have either been against demons or orks, so these are largely monster bash games.

Swarmlord and 2 tyrant guard, A: these guys are awesome. Paroxysm is monstrously powerful. Cast it on gaz, a warboss, and the 3 mega nobs they were attached too. He killed the boss and a nob, passed all 5 invuln saves and routed the unit, running them down. Even when he rolls bad hes killed things like Kugath. Fails his psychic tests like crazy, I had him fail like 5 out of 10 checks in one game today.

Zoanthropes, C: havent really used them against what they are meant to be used against. But they do what they need, show up, asplode something and die.

Termagaunts, B: use them as a screening unit, to prevent charges and they do pretty well.

Devourer gaunts in pod, A/C: These are hit or miss. With good rolling and against something like ork boyz you will make your opponent fear them. Against something like plague bearers they are a joke. Very situational, but still pretty awesome.

Genestealers, B: They took a lot of oomph out of them. But if used to outflank and assassinate a single enemy unit they can pay for themselves. Ive had them take out princes, boyz squads, and so on.

Gargoyles, B: Run them with adrenal glands and toxin sacs. For the points they hit hard, but are very situational. They will die, and rely on you causing massive damage to survive combat. Gave them preferred enemy from swarmlord and they took out a nurgle prince in one round. Charged them into gaz and friends and they did no damage, losing all models to wounds or combat resolution.

Trygon prime, B: I like this guy. I dunno if hes entirely worth his points, but he can hit very hard in combat. I use him as a support unit more then anything.

Mawloc, C: I have deep struck this guy roughly 10 times, he has hit once, and everytime he scatters its been at least 7 inches. With that said he has rarely done anything. Still a fun unit, and against some units he might work fairly well. Pisses people off because he rarely dies in one round, and can hit and run away, and come back later to eat more guys

Carnifex in spod, A: Run him with claws, devourers, and bio plasmaThis guy has not let me down. Everytime he has done bad was either because of terrible rolling, or 2+ to wound nurgle power weapons. Have used him in two games. In one he took out a battle wagon, a 12 man boyz mob, and a trukk. His spod killed another trukk. Against demons he killed like 10 plague bearers over 2 rounds with shooting, and was 1/6 or so of an inch out of charge range. Got ran over when the tally was up all the way.

Epi list is very situational though. It struggles against Mech like other daemon armies, moreso as vehicles don't add to tally so you need to crack transports before the tally even begins.

I played 2 games at 2500pts. List I took:

Tyrant w/Bonesword, LW, Stranglethorn and Paroxysm/Life Leech/2+ save
2 Tyrant Guard
2 Lictors in a brood
Deathleaper
2x 10 Stealers with talons and sacs, bl's.
1 x 10 Stealers with sacs, bl with talons.
12 Gaunts with sacs/glands
4 Raveners with 2x talons, spitters
Spore Cluster
Trygon Prime with Regen and Adrenal
Carnifex with 2x talons, bio, grenades, adrenal
OOE.
Tyranid Prime with Talons, RC's and Regen.

Tyrant and TG: A+. These guys in both games walked through everything they assaulted. 5 man terminator squad with Kassaro Khan, 10 man ass. squad with jump chaplain, 5 man vanguard vet squad. Between both games they took a total of 3 wounds. Paroxysm in combo with Lash whip is just sick; Life Leech hit 3 times the one time I had to use it but failed to kill even a single Marine.

Deathleaper: B. He minced a couple of squads between both games, generally made a nuisance of himself. Against a Marine army with a Libby I can see him being useful.

Lictor Brood. C. They actually survive quite well so long as they are in cover and if your opponent deploys some Devs near the board edge they are great to pop up behind them and through their hooks or other army shooting will ensure any squad that breaks won't regroup before falling off the board. 3 wounds helps them survive against more non-S8 weaponry. They just didn't do much for me those games.

Stealers with BL's: A. They still hit hard as hell and the BL's ability to shut down any one model in base to keep it from attacking is really crippling, especially IC's who HAVE to be in base once the BL is alone. There are ways around the BL ability but if no suitable IC or model is in base than use the LD lowering one......good in the opponents turn to ensure extra "no retreats". Flamers and bolt weapons kill them faster but I face so many AP4 guns against IG that in the old dex I paid 48pts more per brood to die just as fast.

Tyranid Prime: A-. I could see him being an A+ with pair of swords or lash and sword. He dies to terminators and ID weapons pretty easy though (Khan ID'd him with Moonfang) but against power armor or anything else he'll just murder squads (he ran with the carnifex to ensure I didnt need to make IB tests for the Carnifex).

OOE: B. Pretty damn beastly and wrecked everything he assaulted. His 5+ regen did fail me once though but everytime he assaulted he got anywhere from 8-12 hits. He wrecks dreadnaughts and other vehicles that he can get into assault with.

Carnifex: B. Hits hard and often if getting charge and with Prime attached didn't have the urge to just chase things around the board. Without the charge though he is so much fist bait. With the charge he'll wreck PF termies. Never did get to shoot it's plasma because I either forgot or got charged.

Horms: D. 12 isn't enough but it's what I had assembled. I could see taking 30 of them or more how they COULD wreck marine squads if you give them Glands and Toxin. They assaulted a razorback and shook it, then died to bolt pistol/flamer fire.

Trygon: C. Didn't play him aggressive enough so got shot down both games without doing much (though facing 6 LC's and 2 Kraks in one turn and coming out with 1 wound left was pretty lucky. Then his regen failed to kick in and he was killed on turn 3 and only wrecked a dreadnaught.

Raveners: D. Assaulted terminators with TH which is a bad thing to do. Even causing 12 wounds on the terminators they failed one and then proceeded to pound them into the dirt.

Spore Cluster: F. They killed 2 VG the first game when one drifted into them and then that was it.

Overall I like what the codex has done with my army. I know when I use the Trygon like it's a big bad T6 6W monster and not treat it like it couldn't fight its way out of a paper bag he'll get elevated to an A.

Tyrant and TG cost me 370pts but they made their points back and then some and would have proceeded to wreck more stuff if the games had gone longer (both ended on turn 5). Definately will see a place in my lists until I get enough Warriors to put them into 2 squads and run 2 primes.

The only thing I'd get rid of at this point are spore clusters. 50pts would have bought Regen for the carnifex and bought one of the 25pt template weapons for the tyrant and those would have been more helpful.

Overall I'm definately impressed with the codex and my army now. Eventually I'll get some HG (soon as GW gets more available), probably a BS and LW from Chapterhouse Studios for the Prime and then pumping my Horms to 20+. Then there is the need for a Mawloc, 6-9 Warriors, 20 Gargoyles, some Shrikes and more Raveners.

I'll have to play Apoc games to take everything I want to.

Played my Tyranids in the Cabin Fever tournament in Harrisburg, PA this weekend. I won 2nd place overall. Below is my army. Yes, some stuff is less than ideal and some things are just flatout stupid (Tyrant loadout, I'm looking at you). However, with the Hive Guards to paint and assorted minor updating projects, I simply ran out of time on some things.

Hive Tyrant - Scything Talons, Heavy Venom Cannon, Adrenal Glands, Old Adversary, Paroxysm, Leech Essence
2 Tyrant Guards
3 Hive Guards
3 Hive Guards
2 Zoanthropes
Tervigon - Cluster spines, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst
12 Termagants
9 Genestealers
5 Tyranid Warriors - Scything Talons, 4 Deathspitters, Adrenal Glands, Barbed Strangler
20 Hormagaunts - Toxin Sacs
20 Hormagaunts - Toxin Sacs
14 Gargoyles
2 Biovores

The tourney used a scoring system similar to our Mechanicon rules, which make massacres and big wins harder to attain and create more of a bell curve in scores. I actually finished 3-2, but my wins were big ones, so my battle points were still pretty good. Throw in my strong soft scores and I just barely eked out 2nd. It was close at the top. The results were interesting in that no one ended up 5-0.

Everyone I faced was an experienced vet -- definitely didn't face any scrubs, which was a nice gaming experience. The armies there were all solid, although I think only a few were truly top tier competitive (more on that later). Wins were vs. bike marines, Biel-tan Eldar and Khan marines (finished 3rd overall). I lost a game vs. dual lash Khorne with Oblits because we only got 3 turns in. The hammer was about to fall on Khorne in turn 4, but it was what it was. I didn't have problems finishing my other games. One more turn would likely have won me the tourney, but c'est la vie. Object lesson there was to keep that mental clock running and inject the proper amount of urgency into the game when needed.

I also received a major league buttwhipping vs. Rob Baer's orky mech IG. It was IMO the strongest army there and Rob plays it extremely well (he won overall). I told Rob on the first day that I was hoping to avoid his army, as it was pretty much a rock (nay, boulder) to my scissors. Rob's Manticores and Vendettas gave him the alpha strike capacity to take out my ability to hurt him, and after that it just became a cakewalk. I tried the best I could to contest objectives and give him a game, but it was really over by the end of turn 2. Note that I had an enjoyable game, all things considered. I'd happily play Rob again anytime, although next time I'd bring a harder army and try to give him a better game.

Anyway, that brings me to my findings for the weekend. I think my experience mostly underlines what Shep and Mahu have found. Against top tier armies, it's just imperative that you have the ability to take down their key stuff before they take down yours. Players are only going to get smarter regarding their targeting priority vs. Tyranids. So you need long-ranged firepower in the form of Tyrannofexes and/or other methods of getting close and removing threats. Against mid-level armies, I think Tyranids are quite powerful and likely have many viable builds.

And I'm more convinced all the time that the biggest mistake the studio made was that they thought HVCs were going to be viable antitank. They're available on the right units...they just aren't good, which has forced players to look to the Tyrannofex. A costly error in the codex, methinks.

Regarding units:

- Although a walking Tyrant with TGs was (obviously) far more durable than a winged one and a handful for most armies to deal with, slogging means their buff psychics and abilities just don't come into play as often as you'd like. No real answer here, just something to keep in mind.
Might be a point in the Tyranid Prime's column.

- Loved my Hormagaunts...they can kill just about anything. Although that thing is vehicles, which is why I'll consider swapping the sacs for glands for my February circuit event.

- Hive Guards are stars. There are certainly matchups in which they aren't terribly good, but they're more flexible than I had been giving them credit for. It's not hard finding situations in which multiple S8 shots that ignore LOS are handy.

- I'm both impressed by Tervigons and convinced that I'll never run more than two. I think the old line about "does what it says on the can" applies here.

- Biovores continue to be relentless and solid performers. They're rapidly becoming more of a mainstay for me.

- If you want to get any mileage out of Genestealers' alternative deployment methods, you really need to have multiple units.

- Warriors are solid overall. But like with many things Tyranidy, matchups are key. Deathspitters really are nice weapons if you find the range. Manticores and other high S pieplates may not let you do that, though.

- Gargoyles contributed nothing other than a cheap fast cover save. They're pretty good at doing that, however.

Adjustments for the next tournament are underway...

A few things I found are:

Tyrant: Really situational. If fighting a CC opponent, he is amazing (Held up Abbaon and a Chaos Termy unit for a turn, and they got the charge), but fails to make his points back against shooters.

Tyranid Prime: This guy+warriors=dead enemy assault units. During my last game he lead the warriors through two Khorne Berzerkers units. Other than the alpha warrior rule, he really just seems to be an above average IC.

Warriors: Great fire sinks. Place that one Instant death hit on the prime (Assumeing S8-9), and soak up the anti-infantry firepower. Sure, your opponent can turn AT squads on you, but then they aren't shooting your MC's. All games, they have managed to not only draw lots of shooting, but inflict heavy casualties as well. Definately need Bonesword if you want them CC.

Trygon Prime: ammazing. First game, he never once got into CC, purely because he wiped out everything via shooting. Next game, he killed 3 Chaos Termies, a Land Raider, and a Defiler. My opponent surrendered just before I assaulted the Havocs. I want another one.