Sckitzo wrote:Though to be honest, the head is a mighty small target to be aiming for.
It really is...and will take people getting used to shooting before they get hits..
Nature provides!
Squirrels. I have zillions of the bushy tailed rats. Smaller than a human head, faster than you can reasonably expect even a fast zombie to be. And evil.
Get out the .410, or the 20 gauge, or the .22 or even a pellet rifle and cap the little bastards every chance you get. You'll find yourself looking for motion (a good skill), and hitting the little bastards while they're running around in no time.
Then nice slow zombie heads will be easy when the time comes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Saw this today and felt it may be relevant: (from http://pptranger.us/ )
I agree with you on all levels, but I think the fundamental difference between us is that I have little faith in humanity coming together to help one another come post apocalypse, all the nice and helping people will be killed by the greedy thoughtless people. I agree with you on a strong hold, but man, fire can be an end all situation for your strong hold.
When I look at it as an against all odds, survive at no costs scenario I think about everything I could possibly do (with out bringing in ethics or morals here) to survive. Now would I do the lowest of the low to survive? I say no, that I would not, but I have never been in a situation where it is literally kill or be killed. I think that is the big x factor, and when looking into zombie culture/literature/film there is always a constant human element that betrays other humans, and sometimes for the most petty of things.
So, I say be mobile, stay low, steal if you have to, avoid all confrontation, avoid everything until it passes over to a point where you can settle down, then maybe band with people and start over. I can hunt, fish, start a fire, etc, but I am not really a ranger or out door person. I am city folk who just happen to have some rednecks in my family that taught me such things.
Otherwise I think your logic is sound and your ideas are good, and I would be all aboard if we had to team up in the zombie apocalypse, but I am a very skeptical person by nature and I would always keep an eye on everyone around me at all times, and make the hard decisions if needed with out a second thought. My intentions would be for the greater good for the most part, but like you and I both already know it is all situational.
Honestly, I don't have a great deal of faith in humanity, and readily agree with you that there would be a vast amount of remaining humans who would simply be reduced to " survive at others expense" mentality.
However, I also believe in the human condition to " bond", to seek out and join " like minded individules" ...which is why I think you'd find groups of humans banding together for survival as well...
Really, the only thing remotely like a " zombie apocalypse situation" that I base my belife on, is my post Katrina experiance ...and of course that was no where near the same thing, however...the mind set amongst those in the effected area were simalar in that you had groups who basicly took on a " get what I can...feth everyone else" mind set, and groups that sort of looked out for each other/ banded together.
Now, of course the situation was very different, we didn't have to contend with walking corpses trying to eat us....and most of us knew that "help" was coming ( sooner or later), but it did give me the oppertunity to witness first hand how people will behave when the "machine" breaks down...and in many cases ..it wasn't pretty.
I just hope...and in fact it is hope, that in a apoc situation...I would be able to conduct myself in a manner that, while ensuring my own survival, would also benifit those around me...at least those deserving of benifit.
Well not only that but look how the government and law enforcement acted. They did gun grabs, abused citizen's rights, arrested people for no reason, etc. Then you had the rich people during Katrina that could afford privatized security and their security force would carry around machine guns to guard the rich people's properties. It is quite funny how many rights a corporation gets over a citizen. Did you know that I could start my own company and have my own internal security wing and basically be able to buy tons of different fully automatic weapons (although they would be owned by the company, never a person) and it is less paperwork and hassle than a citizen trying to get a class III?
Rich people in this country already don't want to give anything up, hell unemployment is at a high yet CEO salaries went up like 35% these last couple of years. Corporate America is sitting at 2 trillion dollars in profits, the lowest taxes and interest rates, and yet they are not hiring or expanding. Parallel that to the apocalypse, they will horde their goods, trade bullets for things like clean drinking water, hire goons to take whatever it is they want. Add in the fact of no government to tell them what they can and cannot do and I see them going to whatever means necessary to get what they want.
People are just self centered and there isn't much we can do to change that. Especially in a consumer driven supply and demand economy, we are socially engineering greedy people.
Sckitzo wrote:Your still going to have people refusing to believe, but I do sorta laugh in the movies when everyone is going "WTF IS GOING ON OMG!!!!" given the saturation zombie movies and books has reached.
Hopefully people will have a clue. Though to be honest, the head is a mighty small target to be aiming for.
whet else are we going to shoot at anyways? shooting the body dosent kill them. and the legs are even harder to shoot then the god d*mn head! we have no were else to even shoot! thats probably why it became 'shoot the head!' cause its easier than trying to shoot and disable the other limbs!
VTAC Drill
2 chest, 1 hip, 1 head - works better on people
Used this during Simunition training (think a wax pellet fired by a cut down 9mm round) worked great, had the "bad guys" screaming at me, got one girl to drop her pistol she had pointed at me even. Not what the military teaches so no one expected to get shot in the crotch haha.
This one just looks like fun
That's awesome Fitzz, when ever we get stopped by Staties or even Feds out here, they normally ask if they can try our toys one benefit of not having papers. I gotta find some of those heads, though I want to pick up one of Bleeding Zombie Targets
Crom wrote:
Rich people in this country already don't want to give anything up, hell unemployment is at a high yet CEO salaries went up like 35% these last couple of years. Corporate America is sitting at 2 trillion dollars in profits, the lowest taxes and interest rates, and yet they are not hiring or expanding. Parallel that to the apocalypse, they will horde their goods, trade bullets for things like clean drinking water, hire goons to take whatever it is they want. Add in the fact of no government to tell them what they can and cannot do and I see them going to whatever means necessary to get what they want.
People are just self centered and there isn't much we can do to change that. Especially in a consumer driven supply and demand economy, we are socially engineering greedy people.
Rich people never have to give anything up in any country, its the nature of being able to buy politicians, rest I agree, actually High School Of The Dead does a fair job of showing how a rich family would go about things(that girls father that has the mansion). Humanity in general is self centered, its both our redeeming and destroying trait, self centerism makes for competition, competition makes for progress, and I really don't think it matters all that much about country, in communist countries you still have obscenely greedy people as well as in capitalist, only real disparity is the amount of control the rich have over the poor.
Powerful people will always find them selves at the top of the food chain, though one thing to consider is, if those people with millions/billions in assets have nothing preparing themselves now, they are SOL just like everyone else, if the power grid goes down, or the current currency becomes worthless, then their power base vanishes. In many cases the folks with the power now are not the ones who made it, lacking the strength of will their ancestors had in making all that money.
Things would be equalized in a large scale PAW for a while, until a new group rose to the top, which wouldn't take long. Though in localized disasters like Katrina they have the upper hand for sure, I remember when Blackwater shipped out there, when I first considered working for them, until my view on politics and life in general changed, or I developed a new moral compass, something like that
1st, ANYONE can file paperwork to incorporate, so if you want to do that and avoid a Class III, that is an option open to anyone, not just the rich.
CEOs got raises? So? They get their companies to turn a proffit in crappy economic conditions, often by streamlining operations or finding ways to be more efficient, and they get rewarded for it. America is great that way.
Why be bitter and insist the rich OWE YOU something? Or the Gov't for that matter. Where in the Constitution is the right to be given everything you want or need? I can't find that right in my copy.
Yep, during the Katrina disaster guns got conficated. You vote for folks who think the 2nd Ammendment is crap, and that is one of the possible outcomes.
Seems like a few of you approve of looting right now, and want the Gov't to sanction it and enforce it.
When the appocalypse hits, stay away from me and mine.
CptJake wrote:1st, ANYONE can file paperwork to incorporate, so if you want to do that and avoid a Class III, that is an option open to anyone, not just the rich.
CEOs got raises? So? They get their companies to turn a proffit in crappy economic conditions, often by streamlining operations or finding ways to be more efficient, and they get rewarded for it. America is great that way.
Why be bitter and insist the rich OWE YOU something? Or the Gov't for that matter. Where in the Constitution is the right to be given everything you want or need? I can't find that right in my copy.
Yep, during the Katrina disaster guns got conficated. You vote for folks who think the 2nd Ammendment is crap, and that is one of the possible outcomes.
Seems like a few of you approve of looting right now, and want the Gov't to sanction it and enforce it.
When the appocalypse hits, stay away from me and mine.
Jake
+1, though in a true apocalypse I would not be bothered looting somewhere where no one lives (to my knowledge)
CptJake wrote:1st, ANYONE can file paperwork to incorporate, so if you want to do that and avoid a Class III, that is an option open to anyone, not just the rich.
CEOs got raises? So? They get their companies to turn a proffit in crappy economic conditions, often by streamlining operations or finding ways to be more efficient, and they get rewarded for it. America is great that way.
Why be bitter and insist the rich OWE YOU something? Or the Gov't for that matter. Where in the Constitution is the right to be given everything you want or need? I can't find that right in my copy.
Yep, during the Katrina disaster guns got conficated. You vote for folks who think the 2nd Ammendment is crap, and that is one of the possible outcomes.
Seems like a few of you approve of looting right now, and want the Gov't to sanction it and enforce it.
When the appocalypse hits, stay away from me and mine.
Jake
Agree completely on that one. Im not saying Ill be one of the donkey-caves that just screw people over and bully them and if they dont like it Ill shoot them dead. Im not like that. But if I feel threatened or if someone puts me in that position, Ill think of my families life first, and yours about 15th or less
CptJake wrote:1st, ANYONE can file paperwork to incorporate, so if you want to do that and avoid a Class III, that is an option open to anyone, not just the rich.
CEOs got raises? So? They get their companies to turn a proffit in crappy economic conditions, often by streamlining operations or finding ways to be more efficient, and they get rewarded for it. America is great that way.
Why be bitter and insist the rich OWE YOU something? Or the Gov't for that matter. Where in the Constitution is the right to be given everything you want or need? I can't find that right in my copy.
Yep, during the Katrina disaster guns got conficated. You vote for folks who think the 2nd Ammendment is crap, and that is one of the possible outcomes.
Seems like a few of you approve of looting right now, and want the Gov't to sanction it and enforce it.
When the appocalypse hits, stay away from me and mine.
Jake
This is getting off topic. You realize that a voice in this country = money? 1% of Americans are millionaires or richer, and 66% of the people that run our government are millionaires. Corporations lobby for things like tax holidays, tax credits, loop holes, and so forth. They have the capital to lobby for such things and get them, and they hide behind the idea that if they could save more money in taxes they could hire more people. Taxes are at an all time low, interest rates are at an all time low, CEO pay is up almost 40% and not a god damn job is being created in America. It has nothing to do with them owing us anything. They are costing us 100s of billions of dollars in taxes each year and passing the cost to you and me my friend. Look at the bail outs, money was made hand over fist unregulated, the rich got rich, the middle class got screwed, and not a single person went to jail for it.
Now, you can parallel this to the apocalypse, the rich and powerful will maintain their power by using their goods as a way to buy power. Most really rich people already have privatized security forces just like we saw during Katrina when they were using their privatized security and fully auto weapons to guard rich people's assets.
What do you think will happen when those people start to run thin on resources in the apocalypse? They will send out raid parties.
Just a few quick first hand observations concerning the post Katrina situation.
Local Law enforcement/ National Guard (when they finally showed up)...Many behaved in a totally profesional manner and should be commended for the services they performed in very trying conditions.
Others behaved in very callous manners ( at best) and in some cases were no better than those they were supposed to be " protecting people from".
Gun grabbing--I kept my .45 on me the entire time, in the open and recieved flak about it only two times...both times nothing came of it.
On the rare occasion that police where in the area we were held up in ( a blue collar/lower,middle class neighborhood) nothing was said to any of the citizens who were armed...and that was well over half of us.
Now, I have heard that in some of the projects, weapons sweeps were made, which could be viewed as profiling ...or could be seen as attempting to prevent armed gang members from roaming the streets ( I suspect a combination of both).
Class divisions - Katrina didn't check bank accounts...she destroyed everything she touched, in that aspect their were no divisions...everyone was effected.
As to the aftermath, I would say...and again this was/is only my opinion, the poor were more heavily effected and widely ignored and a great deal of resources were utilized in "protecting" upper class/ rich areas ( businesses).
I also noticed a trend ( though not all encompasing) amongst the upper middle class ( those that were left) to have less of a sense of what to do...by this I mean most seemed to depend more on being told " what they needed to do" rather then showing survival initiative...but again this was not true in all cases.
I will add though that I did see quite a few clearly " upper class" folk manning food distrubution stations, voulentering for first aid stations and truely giving of themselves...so again I can't generalize.
I think my hometown will do alright. a few years ago a fire broke out, and burned down half a block. one of the buildings affected was a jewelry store. with the help of some passers by, they managed to evacuate the entire stock. when the completed the insurance inventory not a single piece was missing. I love the mentality small towns breed. We may not always like each other, but when push comes to shove, we will ALL shove back together. at least 90% of households own more than one gun, and actually know how to use them. we have enough hunters used to small targets that marksmanship wont be the problem. our biggest problems will be getting over the issue of shooting at something that used to be human, and protecting the food supply.
Big Mek Dattrukk wrote:I think my hometown will do alright. a few years ago a fire broke out, and burned down half a block. one of the buildings affected was a jewelry store. with the help of some passers by, they managed to evacuate the entire stock. when the completed the insurance inventory not a single piece was missing. I love the mentality small towns breed. We may not always like each other, but when push comes to shove, we will ALL shove back together. at least 90% of households own more than one gun, and actually know how to use them. we have enough hunters used to small targets that marksmanship wont be the problem. our biggest problems will be getting over the issue of shooting at something that used to be human, and protecting the food supply.
Overall I tend to agree with you, I do believe that smaller towns would fair much better than urbanized areas for many of the reasons you've listed.
By and large, many city dwellers have cut themselves off from the concept of community as well as the idea of self reliance ( Hunting/fishing/ keeping gardens) and tend to have a much greater dependancy on the technological aspects of society.
Unfortunatley, I live a bit to close to a major urban area ( in the event of a zombie outbreak)....but as I've stated, at the first sign of trouble ..I'm country bound.
Big Mek Dattrukk wrote:I think my hometown will do alright. a few years ago a fire broke out, and burned down half a block. one of the buildings affected was a jewelry store. with the help of some passers by, they managed to evacuate the entire stock. when the completed the insurance inventory not a single piece was missing. I love the mentality small towns breed. We may not always like each other, but when push comes to shove, we will ALL shove back together. at least 90% of households own more than one gun, and actually know how to use them. we have enough hunters used to small targets that marksmanship wont be the problem. our biggest problems will be getting over the issue of shooting at something that used to be human, and protecting the food supply.
Overall I tend to agree with you, I do believe that smaller towns would fair much better than urbanized areas for many of the reasons you've listed.
By and large, many city dwellers have cut themselves off from the concept of community as well as the idea of self reliance ( Hunting/fishing/ keeping gardens) and tend to have a much greater dependancy on the technological aspects of society.
Unfortunatley, I live a bit to close to a major urban area ( in the event of a zombie outbreak)....but as I've stated, at the first sign of trouble ..I'm country bound.
Do you want to come live with me in my fortified cave in Zion?
hmmm....would it be worth it? ignoring how you did it,if you got a group of really big strong dogs trained to attack zombies and cause as long as they dont swallow they will more than less ok,would they be worth the extra protection? sure they could kill lots of zombies and keep you safe,but you have to feed them your supplies cause they might not be able to hunt in the area. also your water.they will poop everywhere, bark at things giving you away,and chase stuff when you dont want them to.
lord commissar klimino wrote:hmmm....would it be worth it? ignoring how you did it,if you got a group of really big strong dogs trained to attack zombies and cause as long as they dont swallow they will more than less ok,would they be worth the extra protection? sure they could kill lots of zombies and keep you safe,but you have to feed them your supplies cause they might not be able to hunt in the area. also your water.they will poop everywhere, bark at things giving you away,and chase stuff when you dont want them to.
If these dogs are so well trained then why would they be barking and pooping all over the place, eh?
Big Mek Dattrukk wrote:I think my hometown will do alright. a few years ago a fire broke out, and burned down half a block. one of the buildings affected was a jewelry store. with the help of some passers by, they managed to evacuate the entire stock. when the completed the insurance inventory not a single piece was missing. I love the mentality small towns breed. We may not always like each other, but when push comes to shove, we will ALL shove back together. at least 90% of households own more than one gun, and actually know how to use them. we have enough hunters used to small targets that marksmanship wont be the problem. our biggest problems will be getting over the issue of shooting at something that used to be human, and protecting the food supply.
Overall I tend to agree with you, I do believe that smaller towns would fair much better than urbanized areas for many of the reasons you've listed.
By and large, many city dwellers have cut themselves off from the concept of community as well as the idea of self reliance ( Hunting/fishing/ keeping gardens) and tend to have a much greater dependancy on the technological aspects of society.
Unfortunatley, I live a bit to close to a major urban area ( in the event of a zombie outbreak)....but as I've stated, at the first sign of trouble ..I'm country bound.
Do you want to come live with me in my fortified cave in Zion?
I've already noted it as one of my possiable "fall back" positions...
lord commissar klimino wrote:hmmm....would it be worth it? ignoring how you did it,if you got a group of really big strong dogs trained to attack zombies and cause as long as they dont swallow they will more than less ok,would they be worth the extra protection? sure they could kill lots of zombies and keep you safe,but you have to feed them your supplies cause they might not be able to hunt in the area. also your water.they will poop everywhere, bark at things giving you away,and chase stuff when you dont want them to.
If these dogs are so well trained then why would they be barking and pooping all over the place, eh?
the poop even trained dog do.well,from what ive seen. good luck stopping them cause if they really gotta go,they will. as for barking you wouldnt want them to be silent so they could alert you to when zombies are coming,but they would then also bark at the zombies when your tryinh to be sneaky. you think a dog can tell the difference? no.they see a zombie,so they alert you that its there.
lord commissar klimino wrote:hmmm....would it be worth it? ignoring how you did it,if you got a group of really big strong dogs trained to attack zombies and cause as long as they dont swallow they will more than less ok,would they be worth the extra protection? sure they could kill lots of zombies and keep you safe,but you have to feed them your supplies cause they might not be able to hunt in the area. also your water.they will poop everywhere, bark at things giving you away,and chase stuff when you dont want them to.
So long as the dogs in question were trained to remain silent ( unless contact is made) and to not injest zombie flesh/ fluids, I think canines would have their use...again it would take training.
As for the resources they would use...well that falls under the services they perform, if two well trained dogs allow for most of your group to catch some sleep by acting as perimeter guards...they've earned their meal.
lord commissar klimino wrote:the poop even trained dog do.well,from what ive seen. good luck stopping them cause if they really gotta go,they will. as for barking you wouldnt want them to be silent so they could alert you to when zombies are coming,but they would then also bark at the zombies when your tryinh to be sneaky. you think a dog can tell the difference? no.they see a zombie,so they alert you that its there.
Have you ever actually seen police dogs? Bark on command, attack on command, can be trained to poop where and when, etc. And as per the fiction, most animals can instinctively tell what is a zombie. I would also not train dogs to bite, but rather to lure zombies into traps/bottlenecks/out of buildings into the open, etc. Larger dogs might be trained to jump for the chest to knock zombies over, but probably not that useful and quite dangerous.
Like the airship, dog training would be nice, but not high up on my list of things to do, and only then if I had people with the skills required (I have no idea how to train a dog to that kind of level) and also probably don't have the skill either.
lord commissar klimino wrote:the poop even trained dog do.well,from what ive seen. good luck stopping them cause if they really gotta go,they will. as for barking you wouldnt want them to be silent so they could alert you to when zombies are coming,but they would then also bark at the zombies when your tryinh to be sneaky. you think a dog can tell the difference? no.they see a zombie,so they alert you that its there.
Have you ever actually seen police dogs? Bark on command, attack on command, can be trained to poop where and when, etc. And as per the fiction, most animals can instinctively tell what is a zombie. I would also not train dogs to bite, but rather to lure zombies into traps/bottlenecks/out of buildings into the open, etc. Larger dogs might be trained to jump for the chest to knock zombies over, but probably not that useful and quite dangerous.
Like the airship, dog training would be nice, but not high up on my list of things to do, and only then if I had people with the skills required (I have no idea how to train a dog to that kind of level) and also probably don't have the skill either.
Exactly, A K-9 can be trained to refrain from barking, as well be trained in a multitude of other capacities...
However, as Silver points out, most people don't posses the knowledge of how to train a dog to that level...I can train a dog to stay off the funiture, let me know when it needs to go outside, attack intruders or not bark all night and eat my boots..but I know damn good and well I don't have the skill to train it to be quiet in a combat situation...or teach it not to bite into flesh.
In my case I could only see using dogs in a " guarding" capacity.
lord commissar klimino wrote:the poop even trained dog do.well,from what ive seen. good luck stopping them cause if they really gotta go,they will. as for barking you wouldnt want them to be silent so they could alert you to when zombies are coming,but they would then also bark at the zombies when your tryinh to be sneaky. you think a dog can tell the difference? no.they see a zombie,so they alert you that its there.
Have you ever actually seen police dogs? Bark on command, attack on command, can be trained to poop where and when, etc. And as per the fiction, most animals can instinctively tell what is a zombie. I would also not train dogs to bite, but rather to lure zombies into traps/bottlenecks/out of buildings into the open, etc. Larger dogs might be trained to jump for the chest to knock zombies over, but probably not that useful and quite dangerous.
Like the airship, dog training would be nice, but not high up on my list of things to do, and only then if I had people with the skills required (I have no idea how to train a dog to that kind of level) and also probably don't have the skill either.
i never said they couldn't. and if they only barked on command they would be useless as guards cause while they are getting overrun from lack of support you are sleeping.
lord commissar klimino wrote:the poop even trained dog do.well,from what ive seen. good luck stopping them cause if they really gotta go,they will. as for barking you wouldnt want them to be silent so they could alert you to when zombies are coming,but they would then also bark at the zombies when your tryinh to be sneaky. you think a dog can tell the difference? no.they see a zombie,so they alert you that its there.
Have you ever actually seen police dogs? Bark on command, attack on command, can be trained to poop where and when, etc. And as per the fiction, most animals can instinctively tell what is a zombie. I would also not train dogs to bite, but rather to lure zombies into traps/bottlenecks/out of buildings into the open, etc. Larger dogs might be trained to jump for the chest to knock zombies over, but probably not that useful and quite dangerous.
Like the airship, dog training would be nice, but not high up on my list of things to do, and only then if I had people with the skills required (I have no idea how to train a dog to that kind of level) and also probably don't have the skill either.
i never said they couldn't. and if they only barked on command they would be useless as guards cause while they are getting overrun from lack of support you are sleeping.
But they can be trained to only bark if an intruder comes near, for example, my dog doesn't bark at every random person that comes into sight, but if anyone approaches my house...he'll start barking.
lord commissar klimino wrote:the poop even trained dog do.well,from what ive seen. good luck stopping them cause if they really gotta go,they will. as for barking you wouldnt want them to be silent so they could alert you to when zombies are coming,but they would then also bark at the zombies when your tryinh to be sneaky. you think a dog can tell the difference? no.they see a zombie,so they alert you that its there.
Have you ever actually seen police dogs? Bark on command, attack on command, can be trained to poop where and when, etc. And as per the fiction, most animals can instinctively tell what is a zombie. I would also not train dogs to bite, but rather to lure zombies into traps/bottlenecks/out of buildings into the open, etc. Larger dogs might be trained to jump for the chest to knock zombies over, but probably not that useful and quite dangerous.
Like the airship, dog training would be nice, but not high up on my list of things to do, and only then if I had people with the skills required (I have no idea how to train a dog to that kind of level) and also probably don't have the skill either.
i never said they couldn't. and if they only barked on command they would be useless as guards cause while they are getting overrun from lack of support you are sleeping.
But they can be trained to only bark if an intruder comes near, for example, my dog doesn't bark at every random person that comes into sight, but if anyone approaches my house...he'll start barking.
Lucky. My dog barks at anyone and everyone who walks by my house.
lord commissar klimino wrote:the poop even trained dog do.well,from what ive seen. good luck stopping them cause if they really gotta go,they will. as for barking you wouldnt want them to be silent so they could alert you to when zombies are coming,but they would then also bark at the zombies when your tryinh to be sneaky. you think a dog can tell the difference? no.they see a zombie,so they alert you that its there.
Have you ever actually seen police dogs? Bark on command, attack on command, can be trained to poop where and when, etc. And as per the fiction, most animals can instinctively tell what is a zombie. I would also not train dogs to bite, but rather to lure zombies into traps/bottlenecks/out of buildings into the open, etc. Larger dogs might be trained to jump for the chest to knock zombies over, but probably not that useful and quite dangerous.
Like the airship, dog training would be nice, but not high up on my list of things to do, and only then if I had people with the skills required (I have no idea how to train a dog to that kind of level) and also probably don't have the skill either.
i never said they couldn't. and if they only barked on command they would be useless as guards cause while they are getting overrun from lack of support you are sleeping.
But they can be trained to only bark if an intruder comes near, for example, my dog doesn't bark at every random person that comes into sight, but if anyone approaches my house...he'll start barking.
Lucky. My dog barks at anyone and everyone who walks by my house.
lord commissar klimino wrote: i never said they couldn't. and if they only barked on command they would be useless as guards cause while they are getting overrun from lack of support you are sleeping.
My point being is you train them only to bark at zombies, and only when you have given them the command. For example, you are sneaking around looking for supplies, so you command the dog "warn", whereby they will make a quiet whine, or will come up to you and bump your leg (etc) when a zombie is near. When you are in your crib, catching up on your Zzz's, you command the dog to "guard", whereby it will bark when a zombie comes near, or will run to a doggy switch which trips an alarm inside the house so that zombies outside don't hear it and come and investigate.
You know if the bite was fatal to the K9 via ingestion, it is going to be fatal to the K9 via bite as well right? All it's going to take is one small cut in their mouth. Though MWD's were trained to bite and hold, not chew so they don't always break skin, but with rotting zombie flesh, would not risk my dogs on that.
And yes LEO/Mil Working Dogs are very well trained, their also horribly expensive, but if your interested in getting one of these breeds without selling a organ, Lackland AFB adopts out their failures. Sometimes to the general public.
IIRC, my buddy who was a handler said some of these dogs cost upwards of over 100k USD when you tack on the training. And some of them fail during the drug/bomb portion, may have done great at patrol, but if they can't find the dope/explosives their considered worthless to the Air Force and liquidated. Though, some of them also end up as raging psychopaths, but dogs develop PTSD also, some of them get so freaked out by gunfire they attack their handlers. That's mostly a problem with the retired dogs though, and normally those are either put down or only adopted out to handlers.
I'd imagine that with the proper training a dog could be taught to not bite at all, but rather go for " knock downs" if it became involved in a "combat" situation"...though again I myself would have no idea how to acomplish this sort of training.
FITZZ wrote: I'd imagine that with the proper training a dog could be taught to not bite at all, but rather go for " knock downs" if it became involved in a "combat" situation"...though again I myself would have no idea how to acomplish this sort of training.
every time they headbutt instead of bite give them a treat? the other way around hit them.
Obviously in a Post Apocalyptic world, someone will find a place for Man's Best Friend:
But I have dogs (and horses and a goat....) Keeping dogs is not easy. Keeping trained dogs is not easy. Training dogs, especially for attack and guard type tasks is downright hard and requires a lot of knowledge and decent facilities and lots of resources.
CptJake wrote:Some folks are talking about constantly moving from place to place. Where and how do you think you are going to train a dog?
Have you ever worked at training a dog or worked with trained dogs and see what is involved with keeping them trained?
Somehow, I doubt it.
Hey it worked for Mad Max right? Right?
Though sometimes you get really lucky and get a dog that is very easy to train. My buddy has a blue heeler mix that is so smart naturally, that he barely ever had to train it. It would heel, sit, play dead, roll over, and it would not eat food out of it's dish until it's master gave the OK. I asked him how long it took to train her and he said that he never really did. She is just naturally smart, and picks up on things very easy. I know this is quite rare but I have known a few dogs that are like this. My other buddy who used to work construction brought his dog with him on every job. His dog would grab his tool box out of the truck and drag it along with them, and he never once trained her to do it. She just saw him grab the tool box every day so one day she decided to just grab it and carry it for hm.
I agree though that properly training a dog takes time and it is best done from when it is a puppy. I guess the idea would be to train one now and always keep a dog on hand that is trained just in case.
Training attack dogs, especially dogs you want to attack a specific way, is a little different. A smart dog obviously helps, which is one reason certain breeds are used.
CptJake wrote:Training attack dogs, especially dogs you want to attack a specific way, is a little different. A smart dog obviously helps, which is one reason certain breeds are used.
I am sure it is different, but most loyal dogs would attack if their master were to be in any danger. My dogs growing up never let a single person near my car. Once I got the dog out of the car he was fine, but when he was in it, he was guarding his master's car. Though I have never trained an "attack dog," so I cannot say for sure. I think training a dog to obey every command is what helps the most. Just my opinoin, life long dog owner, not a dog trainer.
This is slightly OT, but I was wondering what, if any, zombie films you folks would consider " must see"...
Think of them as "training films"...
My list would include ( In no particular order)...
Night of the Living Dead ( the original of course)
Dawn of the Dead ( Original)
Day of the Dead ( Original)
Land of the Dead ( yes I'm serious)
Zombie ( Lucio Fulci)
Colin
Crom: I keep hearing you giving the upper class and CEO's gak about their pay, what I havent heard you or 90% of the people that complain about the rich is sports players. These are people that basically(other than add entertainment) add nothing to society, even though many jobs are associated with sports. CEO's on the other hand run companies(no easy feat) and make sure that employees have jobs. I would say if a CEO is doing a good job running the company and it is turning a profit, he/she deserves all the money they get.
Coolyo: unfortunately zion is nothing like in honest hearts, it is a valley with really steep cliffs on the sides and it closes at one end(protection), it has a creek that runs straight through it that is spring fed(so fresh water source and no back entrance!). It has a small town that is at the mouth of the valley where supplies could be gathered from for a while. And if a hoard of zombies somehow made their way to zion and could not be held off, there is a mountainish rock that is about 1000 feet high with a very small trail leading to the top with no other entrance where survivors could hold any sized hoarde as long as supplies lasted because it is basically impossible to climb the sides and a few people with shotguns could hold a 4 foot wide path, plus it would be easy to booby trap. I personally believe zion is the perfect place to hole up in zombie wasteland!
dajobe wrote:Coolyo: unfortunately zion is nothing like in honest hearts, it is a valley with really steep cliffs on the sides and it closes at one end(protection), it has a creek that runs straight through it that is spring fed(so fresh water source and no back entrance!). It has a small town that is at the mouth of the valley where supplies could be gathered from for a while. And if a hoard of zombies somehow made their way to zion and could not be held off, there is a mountainish rock that is about 1000 feet high with a very small trail leading to the top with no other entrance where survivors could hold any sized hoarde as long as supplies lasted because it is basically impossible to climb the sides and a few people with shotguns could hold a 4 foot wide path, plus it would be easy to booby trap. I personally believe zion is the perfect place to hole up in zombie wasteland!
FITZZ wrote: This is slightly OT, but I was wondering what, if any, zombie films you folks would consider " must see"...
Think of them as "training films"...
My list would include ( In no particular order)...
Night of the Living Dead ( the original of course)
Dawn of the Dead ( Original)
Day of the Dead ( Original)
Land of the Dead ( yes I'm serious)
Zombie ( Lucio Fulci)
Colin
and on a humorous side..
Fido
Shaun of the Dead.
Zombieland
And...even though they're not "real" zombies
28 Days/ Weeks Later.
While not a film(its anime), high school of the dead is not bad as far as trying to get out of dodge in a city(though the odds of finding an AR in a japanese city are undoubtedly slim to none)
I think i'd be fethed in a Zombie apocalypse, as due to a Neurological disorder i've had since birth, i can only walk at a limp with assistance of my cane, House style. Although there was that one episode where he fought zombies
"Good thing i brought my axe cane." (With shotgun attachment.)
I don't see professional athletes getting billions of dollars a year in tax credits and loop holes...This isn't about hard work, or what they deserve. The facts are clear as day. The business sector is sitting on 2 trillion dollars right now, the lowest taxes and interest rates in a super long time, and they are not creating jobs. CEO pay is up nearly 40% and they keep crying to the government for more tax breaks so they can create jobs. What is funny is that the SCOTUS once ruled that a publicly traded company has a duty to it's share holders, not it's employees, CEOs, etc. It would be interesting if share holders got to vote on upper management pay raises. I don't see professional athletes doing this. If they don't pay their taxes, they go to jail, or leave the country. If a company skips out on taxes, they have zero repercussions.
The only reason I brought up the rich and upper class is that their privatized security forces would most likely horde resources in an apocalypse. Imagine them taking over a clean water well, or another needed resource and then not sharing it, or perhaps sharing it for a price. Some of the higher end privatized security forces are armed like military personnel. The rich will have a huge advantage is such a situation. Though, there is always the xfactor of humans being humans. Who is to say the security forces won't mutiny?
A very fast google search will show results which discredit that claim.
Otherwise pretty much every single person would incorporate, and incorporate their kids and tell Unca Sam to piss off.
But, when someone is that convinced that they are owed something by the Evil Rich and think the kind and benevolent Gov't should be the gun they use to get what is owed, small things like actual laws and tax codes won't change their mind.
i have alot of friends at school who hate the "evil rich", and say things like "more money more problems" to which i reply "well, i'd take problems with more money than problems with less money, because we are all gonna have problems either way"
Dude, it isn't about self entitlement, it is about them screwing the system and blaming high taxes. back in the 50s and 60s when taxes were at an all time high for corporations people got paid properly and the hiring rate was exponential to now. I never said evil rich. The sad truth is that corporations have more rights than individuals. They can supply unlimited amounts of money to lobby, all government gives them tax breaks, loop holes, incentives upon the idea of expanding and creating more jobs, which they do not deliver. Though it could be argued that technology is replacing a lot of people in the world, which is true. I work in technology and I now do the job of about 5 people 10 years ago. That is because I set it up so my computers do most of the work for me.
Why didn't a ton of people end up in prison after the bail outs? Plenty were obviously breaking many laws making a bunch of money and screwing everyone else over. I make decent money, I have a pension and I pay my taxes. I am not trying to steal or nor do I feel owed anything. The system caters to them, while the majority of the burden is put on middle class families, and working class people. I just don't understand how more clear it can be, and the obvious ruse is to label them "evil rich," and make them the victims. I am sorry but shut up and pay your taxes, everyone else does. I am in a high tax bracket myself and I haven't once complained about pay my taxes, so please don't insinuate things or make assumptions that I want the rich to wipe my butt for me.
Crom wrote:Why didn't a ton of people end up in prison after the bail outs? Plenty were obviously breaking many laws making a bunch of money and screwing everyone else over.
Just out of curiosity, which people were breaking laws? Which laws were they breaking?
I pulled my back out lifting TBone into the car yesterday (as TDog can't get into the without assistance and inevitably hurts himself if he tries), and ended sort of involuntarily duck and rolling into the car. Luckily I managed to cradle him completely and not crush the Shanker who was already in the car but hurt my foot as well. So technically an 8lb ancient wiener dog took me down.
If they can do that to me, they'll do just fine when the Zombies come.
Crom wrote:Why didn't a ton of people end up in prison after the bail outs? Plenty were obviously breaking many laws making a bunch of money and screwing everyone else over.
Just out of curiosity, which people were breaking laws? Which laws were they breaking?
AFAIK, screwing people isn't illegal.
Depending on what country you are talking about, there are regulatory trade laws and ethics laws, which rarely ever get held up in court. Many lenders committed fraud, and many loans were processed with out even being looked at, which goes against regulatory laws. The same happened on foreclosures. Many homes were massively stamped out with out even reading documentation or looking into the loan.
In reality I think that none of it went to court simply because of the circus it would have created. It would take so much time/money to prosecute everyone involved that it may not even be worth it. Plus you cannot squeeze blood from a stone.
For the record I wasn't 100% against the bail outs either. There were a lot of complications involved of letting them just fail.
Crom wrote:I don't see professional athletes getting billions of dollars a year in tax credits and loop holes...This isn't about hard work, or what they deserve. The facts are clear as day. The business sector is sitting on 2 trillion dollars right now, the lowest taxes and interest rates in a super long time, and they are not creating jobs. CEO pay is up nearly 40% and they keep crying to the government for more tax breaks so they can create jobs. What is funny is that the SCOTUS once ruled that a publicly traded company has a duty to it's share holders, not it's employees, CEOs, etc. It would be interesting if share holders got to vote on upper management pay raises. I don't see professional athletes doing this. If they don't pay their taxes, they go to jail, or leave the country. If a company skips out on taxes, they have zero repercussions.
The only reason I brought up the rich and upper class is that their privatized security forces would most likely horde resources in an apocalypse. Imagine them taking over a clean water well, or another needed resource and then not sharing it, or perhaps sharing it for a price. Some of the higher end privatized security forces are armed like military personnel. The rich will have a huge advantage is such a situation. Though, there is always the xfactor of humans being humans. Who is to say the security forces won't mutiny?
\
While thats like really stupidly awesome can you TAKE IT OUT OF MY ZOMBIE THREAD!!!
I agree on both accounts! take the anti govt stuff to the anti govt threads, i want to hear about ZOMBIES! even though they cant do anything against a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT...or wiener dogs as we just learned...i need to go to the pet store to start preparing because i dont know how my jack russel terrier will hold up. whats your take on jack russel terriers Frazzled?
Frazzled wrote:
I pulled my back out lifting TBone into the car yesterday (as TDog can't get into the without assistance and inevitably hurts himself if he tries), and ended sort of involuntarily duck and rolling into the car. Luckily I managed to cradle him completely and not crush the Shanker who was already in the car but hurt my foot as well. So technically an 8lb ancient wiener dog took me down.
If they can do that to me, they'll do just fine when the Zombies come.
LMFAO, ya, I may be fine in the event of apoc, biggest thing is lack of a nonboltaction rifle.
dajobe wrote:I agree on both accounts! take the anti govt stuff to the anti govt threads, i want to hear about ZOMBIES! even though they cant do anything against a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT...or wiener dogs as we just learned...i need to go to the pet store to start preparing because i dont know how my jack russel terrier will hold up. whats your take on jack russel terriers Frazzled?
After consultation with wiener command, I have been informed Jack Russels have been assigned to hold the left flank against the zombie menace. You're good to go.
KingCracker wrote:I like all those but 2, and thats only because I havnt seen them. Colin and Zombie. Netflix maybe?
Colin is available on Netflix...unfortunatly , "Zombie" ( and most of Lucio Fulci works) is not.
Still waiting to see if Netflix releases " Berlin Undead" AKA "Rammbock" anytime soon, heard they supposed to, but have yet to see it up.
I have to wonder how many people here have read the Zombie Survival Guide, really. There seems to be a disturbing reliance on projectile weaponry.
Yes, it's nice to keep them from getting to you, but what happens when you invariably run out of bullets (since I'm assuming Zombie Horde conditions, around a level 3 breakout) and they start advancing on your doors?
Me, I say screw the firearms. Crossbow for when you have the high ground and they're far enough away, but other than that, I'll take a poleax or staff for mid-range (keep them far enough away that they can't bite- plus incredible impact forces) and a Ditch-blade or mace and small round-shield for close range.
Anvildude wrote:I have to wonder how many people here have read the Zombie Survival Guide, really. There seems to be a disturbing reliance on projectile weaponry.
Yes, it's nice to keep them from getting to you, but what happens when you invariably run out of bullets (since I'm assuming Zombie Horde conditions, around a level 3 breakout) and they start advancing on your doors?
Me, I say screw the firearms. Crossbow for when you have the high ground and they're far enough away, but other than that, I'll take a poleax or staff for mid-range (keep them far enough away that they can't bite- plus incredible impact forces) and a Ditch-blade or mace and small round-shield for close range.
So can a gun. Especially if you're reduced to using it as a club. A properly built melee weapon, on the other hand, is much less likely to break, and much more effective at dispatching the zombie.
And I'm not talking about fantasy swords, or 10 dollar katanas here. I'm talking about taking a 2x4x6, splitting it, and rounding it out. Or cutting down a sapling and stripping off the branches. Or getting a 3/4" diameter threaded steel rod and screwing some nuts and chunks of iron to it to make a mace. Things that are either so easy to replace you wouldn't even need to stockpile them, or that are so tough, you could drop them from 30,000 feet and they'd still be usable.
Anvildude wrote:I have to wonder how many people here have read the Zombie Survival Guide, really. There seems to be a disturbing reliance on projectile weaponry.
Yes, it's nice to keep them from getting to you, but what happens when you invariably run out of bullets (since I'm assuming Zombie Horde conditions, around a level 3 breakout) and they start advancing on your doors?
Me, I say screw the firearms. Crossbow for when you have the high ground and they're far enough away, but other than that, I'll take a poleax or staff for mid-range (keep them far enough away that they can't bite- plus incredible impact forces) and a Ditch-blade or mace and small round-shield for close range.
Melee weapons never run out of ammo.
But they can break.
That depends on what kind of melee weapon you're talking about; a crowbar is unlikely to break or shatter in most cases, whereas you might get through one zombie skull with a broomstick before it shatters...
actually come to think of it, if you're facing a zombie with nothing but a broomstick you're pretty fethed anyway...
Depends on the broom. Some of those big industrial push brooms have solid ash handles an inch thick. Stick a little spearhead on in the form of a small spade head or a ground-down ice scraper, and you have a decent weapon.
Anvildude wrote:Depends on the broom. Some of those big industrial push brooms have solid ash handles an inch thick. Stick a little spearhead on in the form of a small spade head or a ground-down ice scraper, and you have a decent weapon.
I could see that working in a pinch, however it's not something I'd want to count on long term...
I personally think the best CC weapons are the simple ones though...Good machetes, aluminum baseball bats, metal pipes, police riot sticks, crowbars, axes...things of that nature
Anything more complicated than this is just silly IMO...
Anvildude wrote:Depends on the broom. Some of those big industrial push brooms have solid ash handles an inch thick. Stick a little spearhead on in the form of a small spade head or a ground-down ice scraper, and you have a decent weapon.
I could see that working in a pinch, however it's not something I'd want to count on long term...
I personally think the best CC weapons are the simple ones though...Good machetes, aluminum baseball bats, metal pipes, police riot sticks, crowbars, axes...things of that nature
Anything more complicated than this is just silly IMO...
Yeah, give me a good flanged mace any day. Not one of the fancy ones, though, with the little curliques and protrusions- those might get stuck on some bone, leave you without a weapon.
Anvildude wrote:Depends on the broom. Some of those big industrial push brooms have solid ash handles an inch thick. Stick a little spearhead on in the form of a small spade head or a ground-down ice scraper, and you have a decent weapon.
I could see that working in a pinch, however it's not something I'd want to count on long term...
I personally think the best CC weapons are the simple ones though...Good machetes, aluminum baseball bats, metal pipes, police riot sticks, crowbars, axes...things of that nature
Anything more complicated than this is just silly IMO...
What about one of those with a chain?
Personally I'd avoid them...most are cheap copies, not tried and true combat gear, and if you did get a real one they would still have drawbacks..
While they would be devastating if you connected with your target, being a chain weapon they could also easily throw you of balance if you missed, plus returning to a combat ready posture with them ( IMO) would be more difficult than it would be with a more simple CC weapon in case of multiple zombies.
Slarg232 wrote:Point taken. I suppose a simple blunt object would serve me better than a more complicated blunt object.
Exactly, your average citizen ( no matter how much they may want to be) is not a Knight or a Ninja, trying to utilize some "fancy" weapon would only likely get them killed..
Most people however have swung a baseball bat, and if not...a "club" isn't that hard to figure out...swing...*Splat*...Next.
Slarg232 wrote:Point taken. I suppose a simple blunt object would serve me better than a more complicated blunt object.
Exactly, your average citizen ( no matter how much they may want to be) is not a Knight or a Ninja, trying to utilize some "fancy" weapon would only likely get them killed..
Most people however have swung a baseball bat, and if not...a "club" isn't that hard to figure out...swing...*Splat*...Next.
Aye, tis a sad day indeed when a man doesn't know how to use a blunt object.
And you could always flip it around and use the spike.
But yeah, a flail would be entirely impractical for zombies. The chain adds extroardinary momentum, yes, but the primary use of a flail was to disorient and intimidate foes, and get around their defences- all things that aren't a problem with zombies.
Anvildude wrote:And you could always flip it around and use the spike.
But yeah, a flail would be entirely impractical for zombies. The chain adds extroardinary momentum, yes, but the primary use of a flail was to disorient and intimidate foes, and get around their defences- all things that aren't a problem with zombies.
Biggest thing with a flail was its use from horseback, but on foot it was fairly worthless.
Anvildude wrote:And you could always flip it around and use the spike.
But yeah, a flail would be entirely impractical for zombies. The chain adds extroardinary momentum, yes, but the primary use of a flail was to disorient and intimidate foes, and get around their defences- all things that aren't a problem with zombies.
Exactly, when combating zombies you don't concern yourself with "style" or "shock and awe" or " getting around defences"....keep it simple and keep it lethal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basic zombie survival weapons load out....
Crossbow is worse than a rifle, slower to reload, ammo is harder to come by and harder to lug around. Example, basic load for my M4 is 7 mags, each with 30 rounds. That is what is easily stored in on body ammo pouches. How do you cary 210 crossbow bolts?
As for being stuck in the horde situation, you are a gonner anyway. The trick is to not get in that situation.
I don't care what melee weapon you have, you need a couple things. Room to use it (gotta be able to get a good swing or jab with them) AND strength endurance to KEEP using it.
Ideal situation, you can defend a hallway or door way where only 2-4 rotters can get at you at a time. How long can YOU swing a bat or machete or your nice long and heavy pole axe with enough force to crush skulls, decapitate bodies or sever limbs? I've worked clearing land with a machette and axe. I've also recently built a hay trough out of railroad cross ties that needed to be spiked together with 10 inch spikes using a 5 pound hand sledge. My 19 year old ROTC cadet super stud son helped and was quickly tired out. Pounding in ONE spike takes a lot out of you. 12 kicks your ass. That is probably less than 150 swings with that hammer. How many swings does it take to clear away a 'Level 3' horde of thousands of undead?
I think good boots I can run in are a better investment, that and the common sense to stay out of a horde situation.
So yeah, a good close combat weapon is smart to have, but not against a horde.
And it is worthless as tits on a snowman against the group of Hells Henchmen or Outlaws that are all armed to the teeth with fire arms.
My main problem is that I'm a type 1 diabetic so I need insulin injections... insulin needs to be kept cool which would be a problem as would supplies of it.
No insulin = slow death
No food = quick death.
That said I have accidentally acquired 2 machetes and I can shoot guns. Getting the guns would be a problem as the UK is less 'gun friendly'. I'd need to figure where the nearest gun-store was.
Many farm houses will probably have at least one shotgun. Though it is likely to be in a locked steel cabinet bolted to the wall (as the law requires) and probably hidden as well.
Depending on how the fight went, and how long after things went apoc, you may also find weapons randomly around cities/etc at locations where people made their "last stand".
WARORK93 wrote:Personally, I'd prefer one of these "In case of zombies"
Because I have experience swinging one (obviously not at people but I'm familiar with the weight.)
The blade would get dull after a few zombies, is the problem I would have with an Axe.
True, but the weight and wedge shape of the metal ax head would still effectively crush skulls and destroy brain.
Not to mention, you can sharpen a bladed weapon, like that axe, its pretty damn easy, even somethign as simple as grinding a rock on it, you can get some type of edge. Also, chopping people with an axe is WAY different then chopping a tree. I can and have, chopped down a tree on a single sharpening.....a fething TREE! You cannot compare the durability of a tree to a human head, it just cant happen. I bet, if you brainchopped 15 zombies a day for a strait week, then it would get dull, and its still an axe, which is a bladed blunt weapon. Odd combination, but that means, unless you chop that blade down to a nub, itll still perform its duties.
And as always, I agree with FITZZ's weapons of choice. But Id switch out the rifle for a shotgun, more of a personal choice but other then that, a primary, a sidearm and something that doesnt have/need mechanical parts to kill things. Mine would probably be an axe
First off, you don't try and 'clear out' a level 3 Horde. You hole up or run away, and the weapons are for self defence if you get trapped in a corner by a few zombies. They're quieter than a firearm, too, so if you need to kill one or two, you can do it without alerting all the zombies in a five mile radius of your location.
Second, Dragon's Breath? That's even worse than a regular shotgun. First, the ammo is even harder to find than regular shot. Second, now you have a flaming zombie coming at you. Third, it destroys the barrel of the shotgun, so your weapon is now less effective. About the only loadout for a shotgun that would be effective is Deer Slugs.
No, you wouldn't have 210 crossbow bolts, but once again, it's quiet, just a killy, and here's the thing- you can reuse bolts and arrows- and even if they get broken, it's something that most people would actually be able to make, even with the most basic tools (I'm talking rocks and sticks here).
Anvildude wrote:First off, you don't try and 'clear out' a level 3 Horde. You hole up or run away, and the weapons are for self defence if you get trapped in a corner by a few zombies. They're quieter than a firearm, too, so if you need to kill one or two, you can do it without alerting all the zombies in a five mile radius of your location.
Second, Dragon's Breath? That's even worse than a regular shotgun. First, the ammo is even harder to find than regular shot. Second, now you have a flaming zombie coming at you. Third, it destroys the barrel of the shotgun, so your weapon is now less effective. About the only loadout for a shotgun that would be effective is Deer Slugs.
No, you wouldn't have 210 crossbow bolts, but once again, it's quiet, just a killy, and here's the thing- you can reuse bolts and arrows- and even if they get broken, it's something that most people would actually be able to make, even with the most basic tools (I'm talking rocks and sticks here).
Not the dragons breath, if you watch the video it has a variety of specialist ammunition for shotguns that make them more effective in a variety of situations.
There was even an improvised arrow round that is far superior to a crossbow.
I very seriously doubt you can make a crossbow bolt that is worth a crap without a lathe and other good tools. I flat our guarantee you teaching someone how to reload shells is easier than to produce accurate arrows and crossbow bolts. Yes, it relies on having some gear. Having said that, coming up with glue for fletching ain't easy for a city boy who has never done it. Feathers also are not just laying around. The heads are not gonna work good if just made of sharpened stick, and so on.
Reuse bolts and arrows? That makes a lot of assumptions. 1: You have time to get it. 2: It did not shatter/splinter when it hit bone 3: The fletching is still good. 4: What ever goop is on it is not a contagion.
Deer slugs the only effective shotgun load? Seriously? You must not have ever seen what different buckshot loads do.
And again, your Ninja Skilz with your silent weapons are crap when you meet up with the guy with the 12 gauge or semi-auto large capacity magazine fed weapon. He is the real threat.
I'll stick with a good carbine (which I have) a good side arm (which I have) and the Mossberg 500T (which I have). Yes, I actually do have an army issue machette attached to my ruck and almost always have a hatchet too, but those are camp tools and would only ever be used as last ditch defensive weapons. I also have a very good buck knife, a couple multi-tools and a bayonet. Again, they are tools, not offensive weapons.
Firstly, I'm not actually thinking about other people. Yes, I realize they're a threat, but right now I'm more worried about the ravenous undead.
Second, you don't need a precision crafted bolt that'll fly 500 feet and embed itself into a tree. Fire-hardened or stone-tipped bolts/arrows (or bits of metal) would work fine, tied on. Feathers aren't needed, and indeed, often weren't used for crossbows, in favor of leather or even metal. You could use soda-can metal for them.
I do believe that it wouldn't be a bad thing to have guns and ammo, for the first year or so. If it's an outbreak any smaller, that will actually be cleaned up- quarantined, eradicated. But if it's a long-term, end of civilization as we know it situation, you're not going to want to rely on weapons that need factory made parts and supplies, because those will run out. What happens when you can't get smokeless gunpowder anymore? What about when your barrel gets bent by something? When the rifling wears out? Just gonna head on down to the nearest rifle store, grab yourself a new gun? Oops, a year of no maintenance means it's all grimy and rusty.
Unless you live in a manufacturing town, or have a local machineshop run by solar panels, you're going to have issues with anything more high-tek than a flintlock. I'd prefer to have weapons and ammunition that I could repair with the bare minimum of tools, with whatever materials I have on hand, without having to worry about incorrect repairs that might kill me.
How are you going to repair a modern crossbow? Every single thing you mentioned about fireams except the rifling wearing out will apply.
And guess what? I bet there are a LOT more parts laying around for an AR than for any make of crossbow here in the US. So yes, frankly I think I could keep my gun operational a lot longer than you can keep a crossbow operational if the world went to crap tomorrow. You wanna trust your life to a hand made crossbow bolt with a stone tip tied on, well that is your call. I can and will do better.
If you are talking making weapons from scratch, then a good spear with thrower or a sling will be the way to go. Again, I can teach that to almost anyone. Making a bow or more complicated crossbow with the strength to bring down a man/zombie is not a very common skill and cannot be done with a pocket knife and the tree in your back yard.
And you SHOULD be thinking of other people. Because, again, they will be a big threat.
Bows and crossbows will, I think, be a bigger part of life outside America. In the UK they may well be the primary means of long range warfare before too long due to the general lack of firearms, firearm supplies, and knowledge of firearms.
Eh, don't worry. the military and CDC have plans for Zombie outbreaks already.
It's actually pretty cool- the Military apparently will give young officers a situation, like Zombie Outbreak, or Alien Invasion, with certain parameters, and basically test them on what to do. If the result is tactically and strategically sound, they'll store the plans as what to actually do in that eventuality.
Skycrawler wrote:oh are they bringing back walking dead? Huh. Dad will like that.
The first season was just the beginning ...season two starts in October ( the 16th), and as I said, I am really looking forward to it...so far they producers have handled the Comic to screen adaptation very well and I'm looking forward to seeing what season two brings about.
Anvildude wrote:Eh, don't worry. the military and CDC have plans for Zombie outbreaks already.
It's actually pretty cool- the Military apparently will give young officers a situation, like Zombie Outbreak, or Alien Invasion, with certain parameters, and basically test them on what to do. If the result is tactically and strategically sound, they'll store the plans as what to actually do in that eventuality.
WTF are you talking about, I did 8 years in the US military and NEVER heard of this.
Also, for everyone saying "herp guns suck use melee weapons!" I'd like to see how many of you can actually sit there and swing a blunt or edged weapon with enough force to severe or crush bone and organ, then I want to see how many times you can do it before your arm just quits.
They have a place, and are another tool for the tool box, but discounting guns completely if it's a viable option in your area makes no sense, just as completely ignoring melee weapons makes none.
Anvildude wrote:Eh, don't worry. the military and CDC have plans for Zombie outbreaks already.
It's actually pretty cool- the Military apparently will give young officers a situation, like Zombie Outbreak, or Alien Invasion, with certain parameters, and basically test them on what to do. If the result is tactically and strategically sound, they'll store the plans as what to actually do in that eventuality.
WTF are you talking about, I did 8 years in the US military and NEVER heard of this.
Also, for everyone saying "herp guns suck use melee weapons!" I'd like to see how many of you can actually sit there and swing a blunt or edged weapon with enough force to severe or crush bone and organ, then I want to see how many times you can do it before your arm just quits.
They have a place, and are another tool for the tool box, but discounting guns completely if it's a viable option in your area makes no sense, just as completely ignoring melee weapons makes none.
Agreed...If given an option ...I'll squeeze a trigger over swinging a machete any day.
Melee weapons have there use of course...taking down a lone zombie when you don't want to make any noise and such...but in an all out offensive/ defensive scenario...I'll be putting brass in the air.
coolyo294 wrote:What type of trap would work best against Zombies?
Any sort of entrapment type I'd imagine. And one you don't need to reset. Your not gonna be able to count on it "killing" anything, but dropping down to the bottom of a big friggin hole could prove useful.
Also, am I the only one that thinks Zombie Survival Guide is a bit overrated? Max Brooks is a decent enough author, but some of the crap he puts in there like "run away to Walmart!!!" and ".22's are the bestest round ever" kinda make my brain hurt, not to mention he was completely off the mark about FAE/Thermobaric weapons.
coolyo294 wrote:What type of trap would work best against Zombies?
...Obviously "Pit traps" wouldn't "kill" them...but it would stall them fairly well ( contained for easy disposale).
Anti-Personal traps...Mines and such wouldn't do a hell of a lot, but explosives ( with flechettes/ball bearings/ etc) set to detonate at head level would be effective.
Some books theorize that " noise traps" ,set to draw zombies over the edge of cliffs and such work pretty well too.
Why not go to an oil rig and stop the drilling proccess and just camp there? because Zombies can't climb. Because Climbing is a skill. same with digging, and most other things. Were talking about a basic being that only knows how to feed, walk/limp, and breathe.
Asherian Command wrote:Why not go to an oil rig and stop the drilling proccess and just camp there? because Zombies can't climb. Because Climbing is a skill. same with digging, and most other things. Were talking about a basic being that only knows how to feed, walk/limp, and breathe.
Living on drilling stations isn't a bad idea...provided you don't have a fire or a hurricane doesn't come along and blow you off your rig...resupplying ...well with desalinizers, green houses and the sea to fish in...food/water is covered..
Mother nature and human feth ups aside...it's not a bad idea at all.
Asherian Command wrote:Why not go to an oil rig and stop the drilling proccess and just camp there? because Zombies can't climb. Because Climbing is a skill. same with digging, and most other things. Were talking about a basic being that only knows how to feed, walk/limp, and breathe.
Hurricanes, lack of food and no real area to grow more, lack of water if your desalt plant goes belly up. Ohh and it's in the middle of the freaking ocean so screw that
coolyo294 wrote:What type of trap would work best against Zombies?
Any sort of entrapment type I'd imagine. And one you don't need to reset. Your not gonna be able to count on it "killing" anything, but dropping down to the bottom of a big friggin hole could prove useful.
Also, am I the only one that thinks Zombie Survival Guide is a bit overrated? Max Brooks is a decent enough author, but some of the crap he puts in there like "run away to Walmart!!!" and ".22's are the bestest round ever" kinda make my brain hurt, not to mention he was completely off the mark about FAE/Thermobaric weapons.
I think Brooks had a few "WTF" moments in the books, but still enjoyed them.
I believe he attempted to explain, with some admitedly fudged accuracy why many military weapons were inefective
coolyo294 wrote:What type of trap would work best against Zombies?
Any sort of entrapment type I'd imagine. And one you don't need to reset. Your not gonna be able to count on it "killing" anything, but dropping down to the bottom of a big friggin hole could prove useful.
Also, am I the only one that thinks Zombie Survival Guide is a bit overrated? Max Brooks is a decent enough author, but some of the crap he puts in there like "run away to Walmart!!!" and ".22's are the bestest round ever" kinda make my brain hurt, not to mention he was completely off the mark about FAE/Thermobaric weapons.
I think Brooks had a few "WTF" moments in the books, but still enjoyed them.
I believe he attempted to explain, with some admitedly fudged accuracy why many military weapons were inefective
I enjoy WWZ, he did a good job with that one, but ZSG just gives me a headache. I was cool with, "Ohh yea, landmines suck, they blow off limbs and what good does that do?" because it makes sense. I think it was the Walmart advice that really bugged me, that and the .22.
Now, a .22 is better than nothing, but just isn't reliable enough IMO.
Asherian Command wrote:Why not go to an oil rig and stop the drilling proccess and just camp there? because Zombies can't climb. Because Climbing is a skill. same with digging, and most other things. Were talking about a basic being that only knows how to feed, walk/limp, and breathe.
Hurricanes, lack of food and no real area to grow more, lack of water if your desalt plant goes belly up. Ohh and it's in the middle of the freaking ocean so screw that
Oil rigs a plenty big enough to set up green houses and the ocean itself provides a lot of food, plus if you had an " escape boat" of some sort...you might be ok if things went bad..
But yeah...the Hurricanes...that would be a real party pooper.
Asherian Command wrote:Why not go to an oil rig and stop the drilling proccess and just camp there? because Zombies can't climb. Because Climbing is a skill. same with digging, and most other things. Were talking about a basic being that only knows how to feed, walk/limp, and breathe.
Hurricanes, lack of food and no real area to grow more, lack of water if your desalt plant goes belly up. Ohh and it's in the middle of the freaking ocean so screw that
coolyo294 wrote:What type of trap would work best against Zombies?
Any sort of entrapment type I'd imagine. And one you don't need to reset. Your not gonna be able to count on it "killing" anything, but dropping down to the bottom of a big friggin hole could prove useful.
Also, am I the only one that thinks Zombie Survival Guide is a bit overrated? Max Brooks is a decent enough author, but some of the crap he puts in there like "run away to Walmart!!!" and ".22's are the bestest round ever" kinda make my brain hurt, not to mention he was completely off the mark about FAE/Thermobaric weapons.
I think Brooks had a few "WTF" moments in the books, but still enjoyed them.
I believe he attempted to explain, with some admitedly fudged accuracy why many military weapons were inefective
I enjoy WWZ, he did a good job with that one, but ZSG just gives me a headache. I was cool with, "Ohh yea, landmines suck, they blow off limbs and what good does that do?" because it makes sense. I think it was the Walmart advice that really bugged me, that and the .22.
Now, a .22 is better than nothing, but just isn't reliable enough IMO.
Agreed, running for Wal-Mart would be one of the single dumbest things one could do in the situation...the sheer number of paniced citizens that would be crowding the store would be more dangerous than the zombies...
As for the .22 advice, meh...I just chalked it up to A. Brooks doesn't know guns...or B. he was refering to .223 and just flubbed it.
Why would there be a lack of cowbell...BOC's song hasn't gone anywhere in the past 30+ years...and I'm sure even a zombie apocalypse couldn't kill Christopher Walken.
See, maybe Wal-mart wouldn't be a great idea, but I'd rather go and hole up in a Lowes or other large hardware store. Lots of supplies for fortification, seeds and soil to set up a farm or large garden, materials to make generators (if they don't stock generators themselves) plus plenty of stuff that can be weaponized. The huge shelving units would be great for initial and even long-term avoidance, too.
Why would there be a lack of cowbell...BOC's song hasn't gone anywhere in the past 30+ years...and I'm sure even a zombie apocalypse couldn't kill Christopher Walken.
Cowbell manufacturing plants would eventually cease to work. Even with so much sheer awesomeness that is the cowbell, you'll run out some time.
FITZZ wrote: Agreed, running for Wal-Mart would be one of the single dumbest things one could do in the situation...the sheer number of paniced citizens that would be crowding the store would be more dangerous than the zombies...
As for the .22 advice, meh...I just chalked it up to A. Brooks doesn't know guns...or B. he was refering to .223 and just flubbed it.
Hmmm...I own the Zombie survival guide and if IIRC then it specifically says "In case of Zombie apocalypse DO NOT go to Walmart..."
I've also got World War Z and the absolute single biggest thing I found annoying about the book was one of its climax points: The Battle of Yonkers
Max Brooks assumes that every Commander the US Military has is a complete idiot, this is evidenced by the fact that during the battle (which was actually just a publicity stunt as for some reason nobody took 8 MILLION ZOMBIES seriously) The commanding officers were cited for gross lack of sense, now, this may not sound far from real life but come on! Using long range artillery only when the enemy is in sight? Using airstrikes only when the situation seems hopeless? Digging foxholes against and enemy that doesn't use firearms? Not giving your troops anything like the sort of ammo they need to win against that many zombies? I can understand the old oxymoron of "Military intelligence" but come on Brooks!
Another thing that irks me is how zombies can survive being at crush depth and frozen multiple times but that's zombie science for you...
WARORK93 wrote: Hollywood in general assumes that every Commander the US Military has is a complete idiot, this is evidenced by about every movie that comes out[/size]
Fixed that for ya. Brooks, fun to read author that he is, comes from a tainted background. Yep, Daddy made some fantastic movies, but growing up in Hollywood is gonna taint ya.
FITZZ wrote: Agreed, running for Wal-Mart would be one of the single dumbest things one could do in the situation...the sheer number of paniced citizens that would be crowding the store would be more dangerous than the zombies...
As for the .22 advice, meh...I just chalked it up to A. Brooks doesn't know guns...or B. he was refering to .223 and just flubbed it.
Hmmm...I own the Zombie survival guide and if IIRC then it specifically says "In case of Zombie apocalypse DO NOT go to Walmart..."
I've also got World War Z and the absolute single biggest thing I found annoying about the book was one of its climax points: The Battle of Yonkers
Max Brooks assumes that every Commander the US Military has is a complete idiot, this is evidenced by the fact that during the battle (which was actually just a publicity stunt as for some reason nobody took 8 MILLION ZOMBIES seriously) The commanding officers were cited for gross lack of sense, now, this may not sound far from real life but come on! Using long range artillery only when the enemy is in sight? Using airstrikes only when the situation seems hopeless? Digging foxholes against and enemy that doesn't use firearms? Not giving your troops anything like the sort of ammo they need to win against that many zombies? I can understand the old oxymoron of "Military intelligence" but come on Brooks!
Another thing that irks me is how zombies can survive being at crush depth and frozen multiple times but that's zombie science for you...
/rant
...You seem a bit steamed Warork...
Yeah, the " battle of Yonkers" did depict the military in a bad light...but that was the point...it was to show that the military was thinking in " conventional" terms while facing an unconventional enemy...
...And of course Brooks is an author writing a fictional work...had to throw in a bit of " Holy hell we're getting our asses kicked"..before humanity makes a " come back"...
@ DarkCorsair...
My Brother is a die hard MSU fan...I can attest to the cowbells ability to endure hardship.
@ Fitzz...I understand that was the point, though in my opinion the "Conventional" thinking of the military was overemphasized majorly, there has to be some sort of middle ground between "Flawless victory" and "Crushing defeat"
I can understand the need for suspense but IMO that could have been done without making the military the butt of the book's joke.
@ Fitzz...I understand that was the point, though in my opinion the "Conventional" thinking of the military was overemphasized majorly, there has to be some sort of middle ground between "Flawless victory" and "Crushing defeat"
I can understand the need for suspense but IMO that could have been done without making the military the butt of the book's joke.
Again, I believe it was just Brooks way of illustrating how unprepared everyone ( not just the military) was for the zombie plague...and in all honesty, once the military ( and indeed everyone in the book) began to "understand" the sort of enemy they were up against...they made a hell of a "come back".
FITZZ wrote:Again, I believe it was just Brooks way of illustrating how unprepared everyone ( not just the military) was for the zombie plague...and in all honesty, once the military ( and indeed everyone in the book) began to "understand" the sort of enemy they were up against...they made a hell of a "come back".
You do have a point, I did thoroughly enjoy the book, don't get me wrong, and I liked the way that Brooks set up the way humans fought back, especially how the "Battle of Hope" panned out (Maiden FTW)
I'm also happy to report that the book really creeped me out at some points, despite some hiccups, I thought Max Brooks did an excellent Jobs and I'm happy to have bought his book.
Yonkers annoyed me, but I could have seen some of those boneheaded orders being issued, and for literary reasons they had to lose, where is the fun if they won?
I was almost positive I read about the "head to a big box store" think in ZSG, but it's been a few years, I also belong to prep sites and that is a common answer we get from noobies, so I could very well be confusing the two.
The .22 thing still stands though
And your right I forgot farming on the oil rig (if you could get enough soil there) and of course...fishing. I'm a desert rat, so I may be a bit biased about hiding in the middle of the damn ocean.
FITZZ wrote: Some books theorize that " noise traps" ,set to draw zombies over the edge of cliffs and such work pretty well too.
Noise traps can also work well for Triffids... until they start learning...
Regards oil rigs - a potentially good spot, however, they are mapped, and they are going to be the first port of call for many people. They are also pretty easy to spot, so will draw "pirates". Also full of delicate equipment that is just asking to go wrong without you knowing what you are doing. Even the most modern rigs still need maintenance on the structure to prevent corrosion. Also, greenhouses need constant supplies of fresh water, soil, nutrients, etc.
An off shore island with reasonably steep cliffs/under sea reefs/cliffs would probably be your best bet, especially if it is "low profile", so not hugely high. May also have the advantage of people living there/human structures who might take you in.
As long as you're not squeamish or stupid, you basially provide your own nutrients for farming. Modern man, in my opinion, is rather stupid for 'purifying' and dumping sewage, and making alternative fertilizers. Spread that feces on the field a month before you plow it under, and your plants will be fine. That, and cyclical farming, with potatoes and peanuts to re-inrich the soil.
Anvildude wrote:As long as you're not squeamish or stupid, you basially provide your own nutrients for farming. Modern man, in my opinion, is rather stupid for 'purifying' and dumping sewage, and making alternative fertilizers. Spread that feces on the field a month before you plow it under, and your plants will be fine. That, and cyclical farming, with potatoes and peanuts to re-inrich the soil.
The thing is that human waste is not the best for fertiliser because it contains (or is likely to contain) various pathogens, worms, etc.
Far better to use things like the waste parts of fish and so on, as well as the leavings of birds.
Why all the hate on the .22? It can kill someone, Im sure it could do the job on a zombie if shooting them in the head is all that is required. Not to mention they are really accurate weapons, and pretty quite as well. And Ill tell you guys what, if you can put a .22 revolver to your head, pull the trigger and come back to DAKKA and tell me, here is youtube proof of my shooting myself in the head and it bounced off, you KC are an idiot! Then Ill at least keep the .22 as a possible maybe. Now would I chose that over my .357 or shotgun? feth no, but they are cheap and plenty
KingCracker wrote:Why all the hate on the .22? It can kill someone, Im sure it could do the job on a zombie if shooting them in the head is all that is required. Not to mention they are really accurate weapons, and pretty quite as well. And Ill tell you guys what, if you can put a .22 revolver to your head, pull the trigger and come back to DAKKA and tell me, here is youtube proof of my shooting myself in the head and it bounced off, you KC are an idiot! Then Ill at least keep the .22 as a possible maybe. Now would I chose that over my .357 or shotgun? feth no, but they are cheap and plenty
Because, if that .22 isn't point blank, chances are your gonna get a skip or a skim across the bone. A .22 is great for soft tissue damage, but the hydrostatic shock produced from such a little pissant round isn't enough to put my mind at ease. This is .22lr NOT .22mag.
I have 4 .22's, and they have their place. That place being for taking game, training noobies, or as a last resort firearm for self defense. There have been cases of people getting killed from being shot in the head from a .22, but also a ton of people living, their just isn't enough "oomph" behind that round to reliably penetrate the skull. Sure you might get lucky and put it through the eye, or get a direct on shot.
Go shoot some coconuts at various distances, if you still feel it's reliable enough then be my guest. Also, Zombies wouldn't be the only concern, gotta worry about those wanting to take what I have, and no way I'm bringing a .22 to a firefight if I can help it.
But like I said, they got their place, just like melee weapons, but their not some miracle round, there is a reason no military I know of carries a weapon system chambered in that caliber.
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SilverMK2 wrote:
Anvildude wrote:As long as you're not squeamish or stupid, you basially provide your own nutrients for farming. Modern man, in my opinion, is rather stupid for 'purifying' and dumping sewage, and making alternative fertilizers. Spread that feces on the field a month before you plow it under, and your plants will be fine. That, and cyclical farming, with potatoes and peanuts to re-inrich the soil.
The thing is that human waste is not the best for fertiliser because it contains (or is likely to contain) various pathogens, worms, etc.
Far better to use things like the waste parts of fish and so on, as well as the leavings of birds.
Exactly, we covered using nightsoil a few pages back, not the best of ideas, but can be done if it's handled a certain way.
I have a .22 bolt for my AR, not as nice as a dedicated upper, but gets the job done, need to snag a few more mags for it TBH, but it's a nice backup, or if I need to take out stuff like rodents.
Now, to just get my upper suppressed and I'll be good to go
one benefit of not having papers. I gotta find some of those heads, though I want to pick up one of 
i never said they couldn't. and if they only barked on command they would be useless as guards cause while they are getting overrun from lack of support you are sleeping.
same with digging, and most other things. Were talking about a basic being that only knows how to feed, walk/limp, and breathe.
