Jefffar wrote:

Sasori wrote:

SabrX wrote:IMO, Hammerheads should be like the Necron Doom Scythe's Death Ray, but with 72" straight line from the barrel rather than nominating a point and additional 3D6" line to a second point. I don't see the point in reducing strength given the BA Blood Lance and Necron Death Ray doesn't suffer the same drawbacks.

That would be way to good. The Deathray has a lot of drawbacks, such as it's high cost, fragility, and random distance to take into account for it's weapon. The Hammerhead would have to not only take a serious price rise for what you are suggesting, but also come with some serious drawbacks.

Hammerhead is already decently overpriced as it is, wouldn't need a serious disadvantage to provide that upgrade. Maybe make it an Ordnance mode.

Yes it would. The Doomscythe costs 175 points on an AV 11 platform, and the Deathray has a random range. What he is proposing, is a 72' line, that can hit multiple units, and is Strength 10 AP1. How on earth would it not need a serious disadvantage and massive cost increase, to justify that kind of firepower?

The problem is that Cadians are supposed to be elite riflemen that spend their entire, admittedly short, lives training to use the lasgun. The fact that they are BS 3 base is unacceptable. BS 4 base is the least I expect, hell they don't even have to change anything else. Just up the BS of every IG unit in the codex by 1. Suddenly the codex is almost completely viable.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:The problem is that Cadians are supposed to be elite riflemen that spend their entire, admittedly short, lives training to use the lasgun. The fact that they are BS 3 base is unacceptable. BS 4 base is the least I expect, hell they don't even have to change anything else. Just up the BS of every IG unit in the codex by 1. Suddenly the codex is almost completely viable.

I don't know how serious or sarcastic you're trying to be but IG cadians had a rule previously where they rerolled 1's to hit when shooting and currently have access (like all IG) to veteran squads as troops. Your training for 10 years but still only 20 years old cadians have an elite option to represent the fluff.

Either way, I don't see FW at BS4 but crisis suits should be. It always astounds me that a veteran Tau soldier who has at least 8 years of combat experience and is piloting an advanced robot with hitech targeting sensors has the same chance to hit as a guardsman only a few months out of bootcamp with an iron sight on his lasgun. Crisis suits either need a downgrade on points cost or a bump on meaningful abilities (like hit and run and BS4 standard).

And this, kids, is why we leave rules writing to the pros and not to the internet community

chaos0xomega wrote:And this, kids, is why we leave rules writing to the pros and not to the internet community

Talking to me or slowpoke? Your post just appeared after I submitted so I'm not sure.

It was aimed at Sasori primarily, but also slowpoke due to the counterargument (which is valid, but also not a very productive way of making a point). Really, its just an in general statement in response to the general BS3/BS4 argument that erupts in every Tau wishlist/rumor thread ever.

Actually there is a slight increase in the chance to hit with BS2/twin-linked. Maybe they should just do that for FW.

Yeah statistically, BS2 TL is a 55% to hit.

chaos0xomega wrote:It was aimed at Sasori primarily, but also slowpoke due to the counterargument (which is valid, but also not a very productive way of making a point). Really, its just an in general statement in response to the general BS3/BS4 argument that erupts in every Tau wishlist/rumor thread ever.

Sorry if I sound a bit confused, but are you saying you Agree with me? or you Agree with the insane ideas for the Hammerhead?

While I do think it would be cool to see a deathray hammerhead, I'm agreeing with neither of you. The point of the statement is to point out that neither side really knows what they are talking about because they are gamers and not game developers, and they don't have a full view of what goes on behind the scenes in rules development (implying you dont know the algorithms or processes used to determine points cost/balance rules).

Sasori wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

Sasori wrote:

SabrX wrote:IMO, Hammerheads should be like the Necron Doom Scythe's Death Ray, but with 72" straight line from the barrel rather than nominating a point and additional 3D6" line to a second point. I don't see the point in reducing strength given the BA Blood Lance and Necron Death Ray doesn't suffer the same drawbacks.

That would be way to good. The Deathray has a lot of drawbacks, such as it's high cost, fragility, and random distance to take into account for it's weapon. The Hammerhead would have to not only take a serious price rise for what you are suggesting, but also come with some serious drawbacks.

Hammerhead is already decently overpriced as it is, wouldn't need a serious disadvantage to provide that upgrade. Maybe make it an Ordnance mode.

Yes it would. The Doomscythe costs 175 points on an AV 11 platform, and the Deathray has a random range. What he is proposing, is a 72' line, that can hit multiple units, and is Strength 10 AP1. How on earth would it not need a serious disadvantage and massive cost increase, to justify that kind of firepower?

Except the doom-scythe is super sonic. I have play tested the hammer head death-ray when these rumors were first leaked a year ago and it isn't as OP as it sounds. The hammer heads low mobility means that unless you move it for three turns or play a noob you won't ever "spear" more then two units. You also need to keep in mind that this rule acts diferently then the DS as the DS can direct where the ray moves form point A to point B. If the hammer head shoots then point A isn't 12" away from it like the DS but is it's gun itself. Currently the HH is a piece of shart. It really should be feared.

chaos0xomega wrote:While I do think it would be cool to see a deathray hammerhead, I'm agreeing with neither of you. The point of the statement is to point out that neither side really knows what they are talking about because they are gamers and not game developers...

Oh THAT'S why GW is so bad, they don't even play their own game they write. There game developers must have a lot of trouble testing rules when they can't play the game too. Makes a lot more sense now.

It's really simple statistics in the long run. What mathematically can be done to balance them out? Easy, punch in all the numbers and calculate cost to effect ratios. now take IG codex and do the same and then run a regression analysis on them and see if they come out even (Pro tip: they won't). If you are feeling brave, do this for all codices and run a multiple regressions analysis and see where Tau land on this line. My earlier statement about all Tau really needed was a 10% cost reduction came from me doing the first of these two options. Tau are ~11% more expensive in the cost/effectiveness department than IG (Using all units at null gear loadout).

Also I find it really silly to say that the "gamer" can't contribute to the development of codices. Do we really want GW to write codices with zero feedback from their consumers?

BS4 for FW is enough for me to start playing Tau.

Bleak_Fantasy wrote:BS4 for FW is enough for me to start playing Tau.

BS4 Firewarriors would make me quit Tau.

Backfire wrote:

Bleak_Fantasy wrote:BS4 for FW is enough for me to start playing Tau.

BS4 Firewarriors would make me quit Tau.

BS4 FWs for me, would make sense if they are well trained marksmen...
I mean, I don't know much fluff to be honest, just bits I hear at my club mainly, but from what I gather, and this may be totally wrong, IG rely more on mass numbers rather than brilliant training. While Tau seem more like they would train the Fire Warriors for ages before they get sent into battle, and by that time they would be pretty good shooters. Tau are a shooty army, they are really poor in assault at the moment, having shooty stuff at BS3 doesn't seem fair, they can't quite get the numbers that IG can, so they are at a disadvantage.

Backfire wrote:

Bleak_Fantasy wrote:BS4 for FW is enough for me to start playing Tau.

BS4 Firewarriors would make me quit Tau.

I agree. BS4 would be a complete cop-out in design.
The overall idea with the current stat system is that humans are baseline. With this idea, armies with base BS of 4 should be rare. But since fully 3/4 of the Codex out there are SM, the proportions are a little off.

With the current system, the Tau are overcosted, and lacking in the super-special rules. A 10-15% decrease in cost would do just about right, under the current rules. However, with 6th right around the corner I'll just wait to see how it plays out, and wait for some rumint before crying that my army isn't broken with an instant win button.

If we go against the grain for a moment, how about making Tau BS2 across the board, but 10-20% cheaper, and also give them plenty of cheap Markerlights.

I just cant wait to back up my existing Tau with some cool looking new mini's, I have been a painting madman after Kroothawk (praise his soul) compiled this list. Its been a while since i have been really excited over an army coming out.

One of the things that people need to remember is that BS 3 is the in universe norm. As a game there is so much BS 4 in use that BS 3 seems somehow defective or faulty instead of the in universal normal.

Tau are a guard variant army, not a marine variant.

Where the Guard have invested their time, energy and points into having more guns and more tanks,t he Tau have chosen to build better guns and better tanks, however, at the core of it, they are both basically a guardsman under all that equipment.

Better tanks?

Give the Hammerhead Ion Cannon sponsons and we'll call it even with the Leman Russ.

Jefffar wrote:One of the things that people need to remember is that BS 3 is the in universe norm. As a game there is so much BS 4 in use that BS 3 seems somehow defective or faulty instead of the in universal normal.

Tau are a guard variant army, not a marine variant.

Where the Guard have invested their time, energy and points into having more guns and more tanks,t he Tau have chosen to build better guns and better tanks, however, at the core of it, they are both basically a guardsman under all that equipment.

Better guns I'll give you but better tanks? Really? First, I think you meant tank, singular since there's only one choice with two variants. Tell you what, I'll take all the IG tanks and their variants and you can have the hammerhead. Deal?

As for BS4 firewarriors, we already have that option, if you take a useless HQ choice to get them (ethereal honor guard). I've play-tested BS4 firewarriors and they aren't even close to OP, they still fold in close combat and 99% of the factions have dedicated close combat units....

Kilkrazy wrote:If we go against the grain for a moment, how about making Tau BS2 across the board, but 10-20% cheaper, and also give them plenty of cheap Markerlights.

Perhaps make Pathfinder troops or Markerlights default on all vehicles? Another option is making marker drones dirt cheap. Markerlights should also be changed from heavy to assault.

As long as Crisis Suits get decent ankle hinges everything will be fine.

Kilkrazy wrote:If we go against the grain for a moment, how about making Tau BS2 across the board, but 10-20% cheaper, and also give them plenty of cheap Markerlights.

You could justify that by giving BS2 to all AI-controlled drones. Tau are supposed to have a mediocre amount of tech anyways, and they've always been the AI-loving faction in the fluff. With the Imperium's hatred of artificial intelligence (in favor of servitors), the Eldar's preference of shoving ghosts into their robots, and the Necrons being living robots themselves... the Tau's preference towards programmed AI should be furthered.
There are still people out there are have a high liking towards Tau-only Tau lists, and AI Drones fit into either player's preference.

People usually get mad when GW makes sweeping fundamental changes to a unit that fans have multitudes of. It'd be questionable to giganerf Fire Warriors like that and say their professional shooty-caste units have the aim of a Grot or an untrained human.

Dantalian wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:While I do think it would be cool to see a deathray hammerhead, I'm agreeing with neither of you. The point of the statement is to point out that neither side really knows what they are talking about because they are gamers and not game developers...

Also I find it really silly to say that the "gamer" can't contribute to the development of codices. Do we really want GW to write codices with zero feedback from their consumers?

Yes actually. Design by committee doesn't work, you cannot make something that will be all things to everyone, otherwise you end up with the wargames factory greatcoat minis but seriously, for all the hate Matt Ward gets his rules are tons more balanced than some of the crap I've seen suggested in this thread and others.

If they nerf Firewarriors in any way, I'm selling Tau and getting a new army.

Firewarriors are gak to begin with, cheap Markerlights aside. All they need is lower cost.

I remember a rumor about Ethereals unlocking BS4 Honor Guard as a Troop though, which could be cool if they make the Ethereal worth a damn. BS4 Firewarriors aren't worth it if your whole army just runs off the table.

Absolutionis wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If we go against the grain for a moment, how about making Tau BS2 across the board, but 10-20% cheaper, and also give them plenty of cheap Markerlights.

You could justify that by giving BS2 to all AI-controlled drones. Tau are supposed to have a mediocre amount of tech anyways, and they've always been the AI-loving faction in the fluff. With the Imperium's hatred of artificial intelligence (in favor of servitors), the Eldar's preference of shoving ghosts into their robots, and the Necrons being living robots themselves... the Tau's preference towards programmed AI should be furthered.
There are still people out there are have a high liking towards Tau-only Tau lists, and AI Drones fit into either player's preference.

People usually get mad when GW makes sweeping fundamental changes to a unit that fans have multitudes of. It'd be questionable to giganerf Fire Warriors like that and say their professional shooty-caste units have the aim of a Grot or an untrained human.

Drones have BS2 now, compensated with twin-linked carbines or targetting arrays.

My thought is that Fire Warriors with BS2 would be awesome if there were enough cheap, effective Marker Lights to make them effectively BS4 most of the time. It requires the Tau player to deploy and manoeuvre well, which is the fun challenge of Tau.

And will the markerlights also be BS2? That won't be fun...

SabrX wrote:And will the markerlights also be BS2? That won't be fun...

Yes, but there will be loads of them.

Kilkrazy wrote:

SabrX wrote:And will the markerlights also be BS2? That won't be fun...

Yes, but there will be loads of them.

Ick.

A full shooty army with no CC ability should NOT shoot like Orkz.

maceria wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Bleak_Fantasy wrote:BS4 for FW is enough for me to start playing Tau.

BS4 Firewarriors would make me quit Tau.

I agree. BS4 would be a complete cop-out in design.
The overall idea with the current stat system is that humans are baseline. With this idea, armies with base BS of 4 should be rare. But since fully 3/4 of the Codex out there are SM, the proportions are a little off.

With the current system, the Tau are overcosted, and lacking in the super-special rules. A 10-15% decrease in cost would do just about right, under the current rules. However, with 6th right around the corner I'll just wait to see how it plays out, and wait for some rumint before crying that my army isn't broken with an instant win button.

How is it a cop-out in design to adjust stats for a shifting meta-game, especially when said stat change is something they should have had to begin with. One thing with design, especially game design, is the following acronym. KISS, which stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. If something can be fixed working within the existing rules than fix it by work within the existing rules, and use the simplest change there in. E.g. You could give Firewarriors a special rule that makes them get better at shooting as the game goes on, you could change Pulse Rifles to TL or you could increase one of their base stats by one. Which one do you do? You increase the base stats, particularly when that base stat is both low and essential to the way the army works.

Or you just make Markerlights cheap or *gasp* FREE for Firewarrior Shas'ui and also make them a vehicle upgrade.

I'd like it if GW didn't make Markerlights superfluous by giving BS4 to everything. They're integral to both the fluff and crunch of fielding Tau, and I'd like to keep it that way.

I think that they should have BS4. They still have a basic strength and toughness and their stats are not that great in general. What do the TAu have to compare to the orders you can give IG army? The FW don't do anything that great. That's all they do is shoot. Why not make them gifted at shooting.

Shas'la should shoot like guard - ie average.

Now what happens when they hit should be spectacular, but they still should shoot like guard.

Mar'tacus wrote:Or you just make Markerlights cheap or *gasp* FREE for Firewarrior Shas'ui and also make them a vehicle upgrade.

I'd like it if GW didn't make Markerlights superfluous by giving BS4 to everything. They're integral to both the fluff and crunch of fielding Tau, and I'd like to keep it that way.

This. I would love it if every shas'ui came standard with a networked markerlight. He can light up a target for his unit and give them BS4 (or make his unit twin-linked or whatever the future markerlight mechanic will be).

Giving Tau BS4 would be the biggest cop-out in the history of 40k, making Tau the "no-brainer point-and-shoot" army. Part of the challenge in playing Tau (back when the current book was new, etc.) was supporting your firewarriors with markerlights properly. That is what separated a good Tau player from the mediocre.

Mar'tacus wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

SabrX wrote:And will the markerlights also be BS2? That won't be fun...

Yes, but there will be loads of them.

Ick.

A full shooty army with no CC ability should NOT shoot like Orkz.

Orks don't have marker lights.

BS2 Markerlights are not enough to justify BS2 overall.

At BS2, you need volume to hit which the Tau don't have. BS2 is just a dumb idea for a unit that needs to be better, not worse.

The nice thing is that aside from a cost reduction, all the support for Firewarriors can come from elsewhere in the codex.

And for another thing: How do you propose to get enough Markerlights into the army to justify BS2? You'd have to give pretty much every non-basic unit one AND allow them to shoot their other weapons for it to even be feasible. You need to realize that the Tau need to shoot their actual weapons too. Markerlights don't do damage on their own.

Mar'tacus wrote:Better tanks?

Give the Hammerhead Ion Cannon sponsons and we'll call it even with the Leman Russ.

I will buy 3 of these.

Nagashek wrote:

Mar'tacus wrote:Better tanks?

Give the Hammerhead Ion Cannon sponsons and we'll call it even with the Leman Russ.

I will buy 3 of these.

That would be the best thing ever.

TheMind wrote:
How is it a cop-out in design to adjust stats for a shifting meta-game, especially when said stat change is something they should have had to begin with. One thing with design, especially game design, is the following acronym. KISS, which stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. If something can be fixed working within the existing rules than fix it by work within the existing rules, and use the simplest change there in.

So, when the Guard needed buffing, why didn't they just make average Guardsman BS4 and Veterans BS5? I mean, that is obviously the simplest option.

Big part of the appeal of both Tau and Guard is that the basic soldiers aren't supersoldiers or genetically honed killing machines, but more akin 'average guys' working around their handicaps against all kinds of big killy enemies.

Sure, you COULD give Tau BS4 base. And while we're at it, they die too easily, lets give them T4. They still have poor save, lets give them Sv 3+. Maybe improve their leadership a bit, and give some special rule for regrouping or something. Oh crap, they still suck in close combat, better increase their WS and S too.

I mean, those are the easiest, most obvious solutions to boost Tau weaknesses.

That's just taking the idea to the logical extreme to make it sound dumb. BS4 really isn't that bad of a suggestion, but it doesn't fit the Tau very well. And I agree as far as the appeal of the IG and the Tau. A big part of the reason I play them is because they don't seem like the Mary Sues that Spess Mehreens are.

But Guard have the numbers available to them to make BS3 viable. Tau don't. Also according to fluff Tau are supposedly as accurate with their Pulse Rifles as Space Marines are with their bolters. It's just Tau don't have the fully extensive training that Space Marines get. Which is why it makes sense to raise their BS to 4 and keep everything else the same, where as Space Marines are superior in just about every way. Basically Guard conscripts are trainee's directly out of basic, or in the middle of basic, Tau have more training so would be more along the lines of an elite unit, and Space Marines are John J. Rambo in Iron Man Mk III armor.

While I think at BS2, Markerlights are a sad fix, at BS3, Markerlights can selectively make the Tau accurate as hell. We don't need numbers if we can get enough cheap Markerlights spread throughout the army to light up multiple targets.

As far as the suggestion to give Firewarrior Shas'ui free Markerlights is concerned, I don't care if they're networked or not. You can set up a crossfire or something. And finally there'd be a reason to take armory items on your Shas'ui, because as it stands now to get a Markerlight-equipped Shas'ui with a Target Lock it costs 35 points FOR ONE INFANTRYMAN, which is ridiculous.

Pathfinders are the only reasonably priced Markerlights in our codex, and they can only really light up one target without suffering the same pitfall as the Firewarrior Shas'ui.

TheMind wrote:But Guard have the numbers available to them to make BS3 viable. Tau don't. Also according to fluff Tau are supposedly as accurate with their Pulse Rifles as Space Marines are with their bolters. It's just Tau don't have the fully extensive training that Space Marines get. Which is why it makes sense to raise their BS to 4 and keep everything else the same, where as Space Marines are superior in just about every way. Basically Guard conscripts are trainee's directly out of basic, or in the middle of basic, Tau have more training so would be more along the lines of an elite unit, and Space Marines are John J. Rambo in Iron Man Mk III armor.

Yes, Guard Conscripts are rookies, which is why they have BS2. Guardsmen proper, however, are excellent marksmen and, above all else don't have poor depth-perception. Tau Fire Warriors are more accurate with proper markerlight support. Without it, they're not as good marksmen as Guardsmen, let alone Astartes. BS4 without any kind of technological assistance shouldn't happen for Fire Warriors.

Where does it say tau are as accurate with a pulse rifle as a marine is with a bolter?

Also, Guard conscripts are BS2... A Trained Guardsman is BS3, which is what a trained Firewarrior should be.

This is devolving into discussion again.
Please start a new topic if you want to discuss how to fix FWs

Firewarriors should remain BS3

Fire Warriors on the other hand should be given some way to pay for BS4 through one of several ways.

-Targeting array drones

-Shas'Ui free markerlight (all markerlights should be networked by default)

-Ethereal giving BS4? (Risk vs reward)



Now there is one thing I will always argue is that Crisis Suits should honestly be BS4 be default. When you think about it they are veteran FireWarriors who have been in battles. They are chosen to pilot Crisis suits because of their performance. And I think biggest of all, they are in a highly advanced robotic suit filled with the most advanced sensors in the universe. How can a Firewarrior gain/have all these traits and not somehow get better at aiming? Even Guard vets get BS4.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yes actually. Design by committee doesn't work, you cannot make something that will be all things to everyone, otherwise you end up with the wargames factory greatcoat minis but seriously, for all the hate Matt Ward gets his rules are tons more balanced than some of the crap I've seen suggested in this thread and others.

That's assuming that Matt Ward never ever talked to the other authors and blindly made his codices (which obviously is impossible). Also Design by Committee and Design by Community are two completely separate ideas. And there are plenty of studies showing that Design by Community is extremely effective, especially when compared to Design by Committee. The more people you have looking at an issue/design the more likely you are to get emergent trends. If a lot of people are bringing up the same issue then it should be something considered. Increasing the number fresh eyes to a design can increase the odds of getting new ideas. If you have the same single person writing all the codices gak will get stale fast. The current codex writers already show this by being able to be given stereotypes on their trends in writing. But, design by community has shown to sharply increase innovative ideas that would of otherwise not of been thought of.

One great example of design by community was the F-16 fighter, which was made after consulting all pilots in the air force on what they wanted in a new fighter. This thing was put into service in 1978 and is still considered one of the best fighters in the world 34 years later.

Yeah, suits of any sort should def. be BS4...

But the F-16 is eh.. theres a lot of politics behind it and... yeah, read Boyd: The Fighter Pilot that Changed the Art of War by Robert Coram, it goes into a good amount of detail about the USAF fighter mafia and the resistance and controversy involved in the development of the teen series fighters. I wouldnt say that its the fighter that it was originally envisioned to be, and while it offers superior overall performance to the various aircraft that it ultimately replaced, it is not necessarily as efficient or as effective in the various roles. And of course, along the same vein: F-35, design by committee/community/whatever you want to call it at its absolute worst, IMO.

Suits, BS4, sure. Honor guard/vets certainly.

Marker drones would be viable for infantry squads if

1) cost decrease
2) remove that super special drone rule that they count as the unit type they are attached to. Marker drones attached to suits are classed as jet pack infantry, and subsequently relentless, and can shoot heavy and move, but attached to infantry count as infantry, and cannot.

Also, the F-16 wasn't designed to be equally competitive, it was designed to be superior. Great design for warfare, not for wargaming.

Mar'tacus wrote:BS2 Markerlights are not enough to justify BS2 overall.

At BS2, you need volume to hit which the Tau don't have. BS2 is just a dumb idea for a unit that needs to be better, not worse.

The nice thing is that aside from a cost reduction, all the support for Firewarriors can come from elsewhere in the codex.

And for another thing: How do you propose to get enough Markerlights into the army to justify BS2? You'd have to give pretty much every non-basic unit one AND allow them to shoot their other weapons for it to even be feasible. You need to realize that the Tau need to shoot their actual weapons too. Markerlights don't do damage on their own.

My suggestion was BS2 and and overall cost reduction and availability of lots of marker lights.

That could easily come from giving Gun Drones network marker lights as standard, then every unit can have some.

Also, I would make changes to various other bits of the codex. For instance, I would make Crisis units 1-4, and give them a free targetting array on top of their other equipment.

Mar'tacus wrote:
I'd like it if GW didn't make Markerlights superfluous by giving BS4 to everything. They're integral to both the fluff and crunch of fielding Tau, and I'd like to keep it that way.

If I remember my fluff correctly, the Taus have a visual peculiarity compared to humans, sort of an improved depth perception but with a reduced field of vision, that is in large part responsible for them being weak in close combat. But that would also give them superior aiming.

Crunch-wise, I could say that first, a guardsman doesn't cost 10 points, and that a FW is only 5 points away from a marine, with it's much superior armor, strength, morale, toughness and CC. If the FW had BS4, it wouldn't look unbalanced. Second, markerlights should be an option, or a strategic choice. Right now they're much too mandatory, use-lots-of-them-or-you're-not-viable for my taste.

Shadowsword8 wrote:
If I remember my fluff correctly, the Taus have a visual peculiarity compared to humans, sort of an improved depth perception but with a reduced field of vision, that is in large part responsible for them being weak in close combat. But that would also give them superior aiming.

Crunch-wise, I could say that first, a guardsman doesn't cost 10 points, and that a FW is only 5 points away from a marine, with it's much superior armor, strength, morale, toughness and CC. If the FW had BS4, it wouldn't look unbalanced. Second, markerlights should be an option, or a strategic choice. Right now they're much too mandatory, use-lots-of-them-or-you're-not-viable for my taste.

I remember that one as well. The one everybody else keeps pointing to is the Ethereal autopsy, which says something to the effect that the ocular(?) membrane is near sighted and slow to focus or some such nonsense. Of course it is an Ethereal and not specifically bred for ranged combat, like the Fire Caste is, so it could be near sighted. Heck the Ethereals are actually fair in close combat and have no firearms so it kind of makes sense. The problem is everyone takes it as the Tau species(how do you make it multiples?) in general. Tau is 5 different species, with a similar starting point, but much greater genetic variance than the differences in human populations(ie White, black, short, tall etc...). Tau Species differences include wings and pheromone glands in addition to the strength and toughness of each caste.

As a points cost reply: At their current cost getting preferred enemy/infantry, relentless, and stealth, as well as a free squad leader with a free networked markerlight would be just as good as giving them a single point upgrade in their BS. Conversely, dropping them to 7 points and leaving them as is would also be viable.

They aren't different species. They are variants, at best. Otherwise enforced restrictions wouldn't be necessary to keep the Casts pure.

Korraz wrote:They aren't different species. They are variants, at best. Otherwise enforced restrictions wouldn't be necessary to keep the Casts pure.

Possibly. Do we know that they are actually able to crossbreed? That restriction might be in place to ensure the continued growth of the Tau in general. If a Air caste and Fire caste were to mate there may never be an offspring do to the genetic variance between the two species, or the offspring would be sterile like Ligers(lion/tiger cross).

The GW fluff says they are the same species.

Not really. The fluff essentially points towards them all being the same family, but not same species. They had a similar ancestor, but have evolved differently since then.

Species in the sense they are inter-fertile.

I've never seen anything to suggest that, outside of "inter-Caste breeding is forbidden" which doesn't state they're inter-fertile.

It would be pointless of having the inter-caste breeding rule in place if nothing would happen though.

To use a real-life example...a lot of areas have laws against humans coupling with animals, but there's no humanzees running around.

I realize this will come off as a bit silly, but the point of this statement is that not all rules or laws have to do with a logical basis. They also have a moral and social aspect to them.

I thought the Tau caste system, was based more on the Indian Caste system, in the sense its more about political and social power, than anything to do with species.

It has been a while since I read the Tau book mind, but thats what I remember getting from it.

Well, there are clear physiological differences between the various castes. The Air caste quickly comes to mind for being far taller and much thinner than the others, and I believe they are also described as having excess skin under their arms which is a vestigial trait from a time when they used it to glide or some such...

In any case, the point of a caste system is to keep parts of society distinctly separate, etc. That means there would have to be a ban on inter-breeding...

Kanluwen wrote:I've never seen anything to suggest that, outside of "inter-Caste breeding is forbidden" which doesn't state they're inter-fertile.

In the absence of positive proof in that direction, it makes logical sense that since they were once inter-fertile, and are forbidden from inter-breeding, they are still inter-fertile.

There's nothing about SMs having BS4 that Tau wouldn't be able to equal with technology. I think Crisis suits should all be BS4 as a combination of experience and tech. Firewarriors are a stretch just because they're not as experienced as Crisis Suit pilots. Honestly, Firewarriors will never be BS4 because that would make their shooting fully superior to SMs, and GW would never allow that.

Crisis definitely deserve BS4. They have more experience and better systems.
Fire Warriors do not. This has nothing to do with Space Marines. FW simply neither have the training, nor the equipment SM have.

Korraz wrote:Crisis definitely deserve BS4. They have more experience and better systems.
Fire Warriors do not. This has nothing to do with Space Marines. FW simply neither have the training, nor the equipment SM have.

I don't know about not having the equipment, to me it's always safe (at least fluff wise) to assume that Tau always have the better tech/equipment.

But the SMs still have it in my book. FW are completely out of league with SMs in every category except firepower.

SMs are essentially trained from early childhood (12 years of age), I don't think an extra decade will change much in the training between the two.
SMs are hundreds of years old, having been in hundreds of battles and wars. If Guard vets get BS4 for their veterancy, then SMs would technically get BS5 for theirs.
SMs have tones of implants and other physical trait increases which FW don't have. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#.TwpqaCmTM1I)

SMs are essentially built to remove all defects of the human body and drastically improve all benefits. If the SMs were anything like their fluff on the tabletop, then we would be screwed.


Also I do not like this BS2 idea, it seems absurd to me. So the solution is to make BS2 but give more markerlights and more people shooting? Isn't this essentially saying you want Tau to be a horde army, just with guns instead of melee. Also this is a game that takes luck into account just as much as skill. Do we really want to make it even more luck based? "Oh crap, didn't hit many markerlights. Guess I'll just take my army off the table." Because no matter how you spin it, you are rolling twice to hit with everything you shoot. Once for markers and once for Shots. Now an example of how this is already horrid idea is seen in the seeker missiles since you have to roll twice to hit once with them.

Imo, keep FW BS3 but down them to Guardian or Kabalite Warrior price, maybe allow more slots for BS4 honor guard, and Crisis Suits (and stealth suits?) get beefed up to BS4.

At the risk of wishlisting, one thing that I hope gets worked on in the new edition is the Tau background. No, I don't want anything in particular changed (Ward, put down your pen!). But it seems to me that because of what little fluff there is, players have a tendency to fill in the gaps with their own imagination and we end up with people being unsure who exactly the Tau are.

See the argument above about whether or not different castes are different species.

I've also heard arguments related to Tau eyesight basically claiming they're near to blind, and that they would be constantly walking into walls if it weren't for their technology.

Then I've heard some people say their technology is inferior to human tech.

Then I've heard some people say their technology is superior to Eldar tech.

I've heard them called space communists, hippies, and so on. Are they a dynamic civilization with positive goals for the Universe or are they heartless, manipulative fascists who institute forced sterilization programs on the worlds they conquer?

JOHIRA wrote:At the risk of wishlisting, one thing that I hope gets worked on in the new edition is the Tau background. No, I don't want anything in particular changed (Ward, put down your pen!). But it seems to me that because of what little fluff there is, players have a tendency to fill in the gaps with their own imagination and we end up with people being unsure who exactly the Tau are.

See the argument above about whether or not different castes are different species.

I've also heard arguments related to Tau eyesight basically claiming they're near to blind, and that they would be constantly walking into walls if it weren't for their technology.

Then I've heard some people say their technology is inferior to human tech.

Then I've heard some people say their technology is superior to Eldar tech.

I've heard them called space communists, hippies, and so on. Are they a dynamic civilization with positive goals for the Universe or are they heartless, manipulative fascists who institute forced sterilization programs on the worlds they conquer?

Some how with GW, all of them at the same time are true.

The off topic is strong in this one...

I keep getting disappointed when I see a new, whole page has appeared, but then it turns out to be nothing but fluff debates and wish listing. Would be nice if the thread title got updated when ever someting actually pertaining to the thread got posted.

Cheers.

Indeed, appearently waffeling about bs4 and
GW favoring spacemarines all the time, never gets boring. XD
I think this is the 3rd, or even 4th time this is beeing dicussed here... ^^

Dantalian wrote:

Korraz wrote:Crisis definitely deserve BS4. They have more experience and better systems.
Fire Warriors do not. This has nothing to do with Space Marines. FW simply neither have the training, nor the equipment SM have.

I don't know about not having the equipment, to me it's always safe (at least fluff wise) to assume that Tau always have the better tech/equipment.

See, that's a common misconception.
Tau are up and coming, but they are still developing. The Imperium is the giant moloch from outer space with Tech that the Earth Cast just starts to comprehend. In short, the Imperium has lost more than the Tau have developed yet.

I thought I read something where a tech priest or some such says something to the effect of Tau tech matching and in some cases exceeding Imperial equivalents. Their beef was that they did not pay the proper respects to the machine spirits and the Omnisiah. Give me a bit to find it.

Iirc it was in the first tau codex somewhere.
But this is only true in some cases.

Imperial tech in general (especially bio tech and the like) is far superior.
Problem with humans is that they lost their best tech, or banned it because it was to powerfull. >.<
Also imperial tech has to be extremely mass producable, and resource efficient. So yea, Tau can not really out tech the Imperium.

We seem to have moved off the topic, so I will move it to 40K Discussions.

This is why we can't have nice things

So now we have a thread called Tau rumors in the discussion section, which will be updated with more rumors. And its mod approved.
I am confused

It stopped being news and rumours a couple of pages past.

We've been here before, we will make it back to the rumor thread again! XD
Sadly there aren't any new Tau rumors atm...

So while we wait, who is up for another round of "bs4 vs bs3"? ^^

OOOOH!

OOOOOH! ME!

IPS wrote:Iirc it was in the first tau codex somewhere.
But this is only true in some cases.

Imperial tech in general (especially bio tech and the like) is far superior.
Problem with humans is that they lost their best tech, or banned it because it was to powerfull. >.<
Also imperial tech has to be extremely mass producable, and resource efficient. So yea, Tau can not really out tech the Imperium.

It's on page 20 of the current Tau codex. The speaker admits Tau tech is equal to and sometimes better than imperial. When you consider who is speaking, it could easily be assumed that the superiority of Tau tech is being grossly understated for the speakers fear of being executed as a heretic. The speaker goes on to imply that Imperial tech is superior because it pays proper obeisances to the holy spirit of the machine god...

Here's why imperial tech is, and will always be inferior: First of all, no r&d. Improving imperial tech is heresy. An affront to the machine god. And second, they don't even understand their own tech well enough to innovate even if they wanted to. They regard it with superstition, as though it functions magically, but only when the right prayers are said. The 'machine spirit' is their mythology for explaining what makes machines function. Meanwhile the Tau are laughing their asses off at these cretins, saying " Mmkay! You go ahead and say your magic prayers to your stagnant, forgotten tech. We're gonna just go ahead and research and develop and generally keep improving our tech... Oh look, 2000 years later we've already left your 40,000 year old tech in the dust..."

True, Tau do not use bio tech... because their technology more than compensates. Compare a space marine to a crisis suit. SM only has superior initiative, WS and BS (if the crisis has no targeting array.) Crisis suit has superior mobility, strength, wounds, attacks and heavier, more numerous weapon capacity.

The only thing the Imperium really has on Tau is Warp travel... In all of its perilous, unstable glory.

I've read a lot on this subject and, frankly, I've found the idea of Imperial tech superiority completely unjustifiable.

Comparing a Crisis Suit and a space marine is a bit silly. There are FAR more Space Marines than crisis suits. Hell, I'd go as far as saying crisis suits are more comparable to dreadnoughts. And dreadnoughts win that hands down.

Plus Tau don't need to make their tech NEARLY as mass-produced as the Imperium. Compare the pulse rifle to the lasgun. Yes, the pulse rifle is instantly superior, but there are BILLIONS more guardsmen than fire warriors.

Generally, if the Imperium only had to produce enough technology to support as little as the Tau have, the Imperium would be giving every bugger a lascannon

Well, it's a difference if we talk about the ingame stats, or the backstory of things.
Considering the backstory a space marine would probably rip a Crisis suit appart before it shot the first bullet. >.<

Thing is, the humans allready exceeded their technological peak, the Tau have only just begun their evolution.

I mean the Imperium has allready banned/lost more technology than the Tau ever deveolped.. XD

IPS wrote:Well, it's a difference if we talk about the ingame stats, or the backstory of things.
Considering the backstory a space marine would probably rip a Crisis suit appart before it shot the first bullet. >.<

Thing is, the humans allready exceeded their technological peak, the Tau have only just begun their evolution.

I mean the Imperium has allready banned/lost more technology than the Tau ever deveolped.. XD

IPS speaks truth, we just have to look something everyone is missing, Tau doesnt have Titans, not even something close to it, with the exception of their Air Fleet with the Manta, and their Orbital Space Plants. This speaks much of Imperial Tech, it may be forgotten, it may be old, they may cease to exist on someday since Terminator Armors are no longer into production (As far as i know), but until then, Imperial Tech is superior just for one thing, its older. Tau will eventually get to it, and i think, they might get better technology if they someday develop a Titan-like unit, get their FW genetically improved and mass produce them.

The Imperium may doesnt even know how to make their own tech better, but, hey! they dont even need it and that thing about the machine god and stuff, its their own way to not feel dumber than im sure all Techmarines feel when they start to learn about proper science thinking "What the feth is this gak, prayers? Im just doing my work bitches!"

What a load of...

Archonate wrote:
The only thing the Imperium really has on Tau is Warp travel... In all of its perilous, unstable glory.

And Titans. And ships. And power armour, which is being improved on all the time BTW, thus refuting your first AND your second point. And void shields. And man-portable anti-tank weapons. And so on, and so forth. Yes, the Tau are more advanced in a few select areas (very important areas though), but on the grand scale of things, the Imperium is still well ahead.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Archonate wrote:
The only thing the Imperium really has on Tau is Warp travel... In all of its perilous, unstable glory.

And Titans. And ships. And power armour, which is being improved on all the time BTW, thus refuting your first AND your second point. And void shields. And man-portable anti-tank weapons. And so on, and so forth. Yes, the Tau are more advanced in a few select areas (very important areas though), but on the grand scale of things, the Imperium is still well ahead.

Mmm... Ships? What kind of ships? Tau also ahve Ships, and really large ones i mean, not just fighters, they have the Biggest ship avaible in game, even if its ForgeWorld based. Power Armour wasnt a forgotten technology also? They dont improve, just change into appereance and usefullnes, not like really improving and making major changes, remember, Terminator Armor no longer in production. Tau has manportable antitank weapons, look at broadsides and their Railgun, its ported by 1 Tau, with an improved Power Armour (crisis suit is very similar but better to me), and this one is really getting improved all the time, since they look for it. IDK what a Void Shield is, but since i only know of Emperor Class Titan... ITs Titan Technology, it all goes for the same thing, no point with this.

Fusion Blaster can be seen as a Anti-tank weapon, and they will have the Airbuster for the new codex on normal suits, their Plasma Tech is way better. The difference its not so big as you want it to seem, but indeed, its huge in some ways, when in others, it isnt.

And... STOP THE OFF-TOPIC!!!!! I want so much to speak about this things that i cant stop it unless you do :( it makes me sad to see the thread going in such a bad direction. Kroothawk!!! Place some fake rumors to laugh at and make some random opinion about it!!

I would hardly describe a broadside railgun as man-portable... And you cannot EVER claim that a crisis suit is a superior version of power armor...one of them is worn, the other one is piloted... guess which one is more efficient...

KaiserEddie wrote:
Mmm... Ships? What kind of ships? Tau also ahve Ships, and really large ones i mean, not just fighters, they have the Biggest ship avaible in game, even if its ForgeWorld based.

Space ships. The part where the Imperium has better space ships.

KaiserEddie wrote:Powerr Armour wasnt a forgotten technology also? They dont improve, just change into appereance and usefullnes, not like really improving and making major changes, remember, Terminator Armor no longer in production.

Terminator Armour most certainly is still in production, it just takes long to produce. By default, something increasing in usefulness is an improvement, so you proved yourself wrong there. The Mk. VIII "Errant" Armour is an improvement over Mk. VII "Aquila" armour because it protects vulnerable joints and the neck better.

KaiserEddie wrote:Tau has manportable antitank weapons, look at broadsides and their Railgun, its ported by 1 Tau, with an improved Power Armour (crisis suit is very similar but better to me), and this one is really getting improved all the time, since they look for it.

Last I looked, Broadsides carry Railguns, not Crisis Suits. Regardless, something that requires a battlesuit to move isn't "man-portable", whereas 2 Imperial Guardsmen can easily operate and move a lascannon. The best man-portable anti-tank weapons the Tau have are Rail Rifles for long-range and Fusion Blasters for close range.

KaiserEddie wrote:
Fusion Blaster can be seen as a Anti-tank weapon, and they will have the Airbuster for the new codex on normal suits, their Plasma Tech is way better. The difference its not so big as you want it to seem, but indeed, its huge in some ways, when in others, it isnt.

Yes, the Fusion Blaster is an anti-tank weapon, which is on par with a meltagun. And no, the Tau Plasma tech isn't better, the Imperium just feels that it's worth the extra juice to have a small chance to injure the wielder. If the Tau had better Plasma Technology, they'd have Plasma Weapons more destructive than the Plasma Blastgun, Plasma Annihilator and, in the extreme part of the spectrum, the Nova Cannon utilized by Ordinatus Armageddon. Speaking of Nova Cannons, the ones found on Imperial Starships are railguns, so don't think that the Tau are ahead in that field of technology just because they have it on their ground-based units.

KaiserEddie wrote:IDK what a Void Shield is, but since i only know of Emperor Class Titan... ITs Titan Technology, it all goes for the same thing, no point with this.

Void Shields are the shield systems employed by the Imperium of Man. They use the Warp to nullify ranged attacks, keeping the stuff inside safe.

KaiserEddie wrote:
And... STOP THE OFF-TOPIC!!!!! I want so much to speak about this things that i cant stop it unless you do :( it makes me sad to see the thread going in such a bad direction. Kroothawk!!! Place some fake rumors to laugh at and make some random opinion about it!!

So because I'm proving to you that you're wrong, I need to stop going off-topic, but it's completely fine for you to make an off-topic reply? No deal.

AlmightyWalrus yur getting too serious in this mate :/ take a coffee

Crisis Suit is 1 Man, its a suit, so its an armor, it improves your thougnes and other stuff, its a power armor, im not getting into it really much becouse i really dont see the difference, Crisis Suit are not specified as vehicles, and so i dont see them as one, thats a point of view pretty good for each one, and i dont really care about this one, for the simple thing of this rule on the internet "My Ideals are always superior" and so yu know.

Also, im not too much into the 40k Lore more than what i read on my Tau Codex, the IG codex that a friend lend me for a couple of days, and some random stuff on wikis about Grey Knights, Dark Angels, and Black Templars, also some pre-heresy, and Heresy thing. I only know little, so you know, theres is no real point into getting this much excited on a discussion, since probably you already know more than me, but i have my point to see things, and until i get to yur level of understanding in the 40K IoM story, i cannot argue correctly about it. Everything i said are just my conjectures and all that stuff im not so certain about, and is really on the table game, more than lore based.

Sorry if i angered you, but those are just my points of view about it.

PD: I may also didnt get yur mood about everything you said but, hey, its better to take precautions about it. And since its not very fair for me to ask to not Off-Topic and do so, i`ll stop for now... Until we get to it again

Cerebrium wrote:Comparing a Crisis Suit and a space marine is a bit silly. There are FAR more Space Marines than crisis suits.

Maybe on the table top, but there are only around one million SMs in the entire galaxy, (probably less) And while Tau numbers are a subject of debate, considering they occupy multiple planets I'm going to say they number in the billions. Granted, not all of them are Fire Caste, and even fewer elite enough for a Crisis Suit. Perhaps only as few as 100,000,000 over all could operate a crisis suit. That's still 100 times more than all SMs combined.

Hell, I'd go as far as saying crisis suits are more comparable to dreadnoughts. And dreadnoughts win that hands down.

They are like dreadnaughts in that they can carry much larger, more powerful weapons. But their armor is too light be be considered vehicular. They are armored infantry, just like SMs... Only physically stronger, more mobile, and able to sustain more damage... In addition to carrying bigger, better guns. SMs better pray Crisis Suits don't receive melee upgrade options in the new codex...

Plus Tau don't need to make their tech NEARLY as mass-produced as the Imperium. Compare the pulse rifle to the lasgun. Yes, the pulse rifle is instantly superior, but there are BILLIONS more guardsmen than fire warriors.

You make it sound as though each Firewarrior has to forge his own pulse rifle. Mass producing their tech is exactly what Tau do. Though I don't see how numbers are relevant. Mass production is mass production.

If you want to draw comparisons, the Crisis Suit and the Terminator I think are a closer starting point than Crisis Suit and Marine PA.

Both are comparable in size and in the extensiveness of their augmentation. Both are designed as elite infantry forces. Both are capable of using weapons heavier than those by infantry.

The big difference is the Terminator went towards armoured protection while the Crisis Suit went for mobility.

Something new for you to discuss.
It's probably fake but I post it anyways.. ^^

SUMMARY OF THE LEAK
(For you impatient people who don't want to read through the whole long conversation for the details.)

-Tau will be the first codex of next year
-Phil Kelly is writing the new book, not Cruddace or Ward as has otherwise been rumored.
-Crisis suits do not get a new kit, but they are getting an upgrade sprue for making special issue weapons and Broadsides.
-A Shas'el Commander unlocks Crisis suits as troops. Other types of commander are implied, including a Stealth Suit commander.
-Drones are changing significantly in how they are bought. Several new types of drones (heavy weapons, melee) are being added.
-Markerlights are Assault 1 weapons now; burning one counter lets you reroll misses or forces the enemy to reroll either cover or pinning tests. Pathfinders have the innate ability to split their fire to multiple targets.
-At least one unit from each of the five castes will be fieldable in the codex.
-There is at least one flyer (the Barracuda) in the book and getting a plastic kit, possibly more.
-Several other Forge World units (Tetras, XV9 Hazard Suits) are getting brought over as well.
-There is at least one new named character "pilot" for a flyer, a la Pask, but the system to represent them is apparently being reconsidered as part of 6E.
-Demiurg are added to the book, functioning "like Dwarves in Fantasy," with ponderous, low-AP guns and strong melee attacks. Hrud are present as well.
-Gue'vesa are available, working similarly to Inquisitorial allies drawn from the IG codex.
-Kroot Carnivores will be 5pts to bring them more in line with IG costs. They keep the same statline (and have Stealth?) but require a Shaper (unsure if he meant as an HQ or as a mandatory squad member.)
-Disruption Pod gives the Stealth USR and grants a 6+ cover save if you lack one.
-All Pulse weapons are Strength 6 in the new codex, as are Burst Cannons.
-Plasma Rifles and Missile Pods are now the same stats as their Imperial counterparts (the Plasmagun and Autocannon, respectively.)
-Seeker Missiles are 72" range and can be fired with one of several different profiles. The basic missile is still S8 AP3, but gains the Blast property. A second, "frag"-type mode is S6 AP5 Large Blast; these two fire modes come standard on the missiles (only one type can shoot each turn.) Two additional upgrade fire modes are available that improve on them, one that is S5 AP6 Large Blast No Cover Saves, another that is S9 AP1 and rolls 2d6 for penetration.
-The new codex expands on their fluff significantly, giving them more interactions with other xenos races, including resolving their grudge with Urien Rakarth and more on the story between them and Crowe.
-It's also implied that there is a faction friendly to (or at least neutral with) the Tau within the Imperium itself. Heresy!
-We learn a lot more about Tau culture and the kinds of lives their citizens lead.


So overall it sounds like there are some big changes ahead for the little blue guys. Fire Warriors not being gak, Broadsides not being horrible on your hands and worse on your wallet, Skyrays being a unit that you can actually field without being laughed at, lots of new options for ally races. And, most importantly, NOT CRUDDACE'S WORK. You can't imagine how happy that makes me.


source:
http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/01/new-tau-info-believe-it.html

Its a joke by Abuse Puppy. Scroll down into the comment section and you will see that the readers discovered that Abuse Puppy bolded several letters in his post that spell out LOLITROLYU.

Yes, definitely a fake. That's why the rumour thread presenting this fake was immediately locked.

I'm hoping that all of the alien races will get HQ and troop choices so that people will have the freedom to run 'pure' armies for fluff purposes, even if they're not competitive.

I know people like to run Kroot armies already, how about Demiurg?

Archonate wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:Comparing a Crisis Suit and a space marine is a bit silly. There are FAR more Space Marines than crisis suits.

Maybe on the table top, but there are only around one million SMs in the entire galaxy, (probably less) And while Tau numbers are a subject of debate, considering they occupy multiple planets I'm going to say they number in the billions. Granted, not all of them are Fire Caste, and even fewer elite enough for a Crisis Suit. Perhaps only as few as 100,000,000 over all could operate a crisis suit. That's still 100 times more than all SMs combined.

Hell, I'd go as far as saying crisis suits are more comparable to dreadnoughts. And dreadnoughts win that hands down.

They are like dreadnaughts in that they can carry much larger, more powerful weapons. But their armor is too light be be considered vehicular. They are armored infantry, just like SMs... Only physically stronger, more mobile, and able to sustain more damage... In addition to carrying bigger, better guns. SMs better pray Crisis Suits don't receive melee upgrade options in the new codex...

Plus Tau don't need to make their tech NEARLY as mass-produced as the Imperium. Compare the pulse rifle to the lasgun. Yes, the pulse rifle is instantly superior, but there are BILLIONS more guardsmen than fire warriors.

You make it sound as though each Firewarrior has to forge his own pulse rifle. Mass producing their tech is exactly what Tau do. Though I don't see how numbers are relevant. Mass production is mass production.

Actually from what I read, crisis suits were originally supposed to be dreadnoughts with a JSJ move. They changed that to being MEQ with multiple heavy weapons options.

Soo, anybody going to do an indepth analysis of the leaked 6th edition to determine its impact on Tau?

Some things that caught my attention so far:

- Assault move changed to a 2D6" movement in the new consolidation phase.

Tbh, I'd rather have had it stuck on 6", it will really suck if you cant jump behind cover just because of a sucky roll :(.

- Jet pack units getting the 'Airborn' rule -> they ignore dangerous/difficult terrain

Yay for no more slim chance of getting a wound for tripping over a branch when landing in a forest .

- Disruption pod down to 5+ cover save.

:(.

- Stealth field generator is Veiled(2), meaning 2D6" * 2 spotting distance.

I think that is an improvement, if I'm not mistaken its 2D6" * 3 atm.

-Units with preffered enemy hit on a 3+ in ranged combat.
allways..
On a 2+ if they would have allready hit on a 3+.
I will so send my ethereal in every close combat he can reach. XD

-3 rapid fire shots on 12" 2 on 18"...

-Also deep striking for close combat units got neverd extremely, while I can place my battlesuits wherever I want them to be! (ok not for sunforges, but hey^^)

I don't like Tau that much, but my cousin will be pretty happy XD.

IPS wrote:-3 rapid fire shots on 12" 2 on 18"...

This is only for relentless models, i.e. battlesuits. This is now called sustained fire, and simply adds +1 shot, as you can now have Rapid Fire (2), so you have 2 shots up to max range, and 3 shots at 12"/18". Also, relentless models can use rapid fire weapon as 2nd CCW. Not that we have any CCW but still, that might be nice for some other race .

MoD_Legion wrote:

IPS wrote:-3 rapid fire shots on 12" 2 on 18"...

This is only for relentless models, i.e. battlesuits. This is now called sustained fire, and simply adds +1 shot, as you can now have Rapid Fire (2), so you have 2 shots up to max range, and 3 shots at 12"/18". Also, relentless models can use rapid fire weapon as 2nd CCW. Not that we have any CCW but still, that might be nice for some other race .

I thought that all models have one ccw automatically, so they would gain one attack automatically.

MoD_Legion wrote:

IPS wrote:-3 rapid fire shots on 12" 2 on 18"...

This is only for relentless models, i.e. battlesuits. This is now called sustained fire, and simply adds +1 shot, as you can now have Rapid Fire (2), so you have 2 shots up to max range, and 3 shots at 12"/18". Also, relentless models can use rapid fire weapon as 2nd CCW. Not that we have any CCW but still, that might be nice for some other race .

What?

Mmm, ok..
But Jet Pack infantry does not get the reletless rule if I read correctly, so it's still 12" rapid fire as usual for all tau.

Also that draw back rule is kinda strange.
It's a shooting attack?
Does this mean you have to spent a fire action on it, or what?
Or is it just assumed that the battlesuits shoot while retreating?

Also: Can a battlesuit commander (as independent character) use dirceted hits at point blank range?

IPS wrote:Mmm, ok..
But Jet Pack infantry does not get the reletless rule if I read correctly, so it's still 12" rapid fire as usual for all tau.

It would make me a sad panda to not get extra new goodies, but tbh none of our currently relentless suits can use heavy weapons to begin with ([edit] wait, except for stealth suits and markerlights perhaps[/edit]), and the only rapid fire weapon they have access to (I think) is the plasma rifle. What is kinda weird though is that the relentless rule description itself does include jet packers, so either it is a typo there, or an oversight on the part of the listing at the jet pack section (same goes for bikes, also mentioned under the relentless rule, but no relentless entry under their type description).

strange..

also an extremely awesome thing to note:
Tau railguns! (every weapon with "rail" in it's name)
You pick a target unit, roll to hit like with a template weapon,
then draw a straight line to where to shot lands.
Every model in that line get's one hit.
You must not have a los to hit the units.

edit:
you first roll to hit, like with a normal weapon,
and only if it misses it scatters... and kills something else. XD

IPS wrote:strange..

also an extremely awesome thing to note:
Tau railguns! (every weapon with "rail" in it's name)
You pick a target unit, roll to hit like with a template weapon,
then draw a straight line to where to shot lands.
Every model in that line get's one hit.
You must not have a los to hit the units.

edit:
you first roll to hit, like with a normal weapon,
and only if it misses it scatters... and kills something else. XD

So, HH railguns and Broadside Railguns evolves to become something like



I Freaking love it xD

Well, dont get to happy about it, everbody gets it for similar weapons (dont know the names of the top of my head, something with lances, amongst others).

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Archonate wrote:
The only thing the Imperium really has on Tau is Warp travel... In all of its perilous, unstable glory.

And Titans. And ships. And power armour, which is being improved on all the time BTW, thus refuting your first AND your second point. And void shields. And man-portable anti-tank weapons. And so on, and so forth. Yes, the Tau are more advanced in a few select areas (very important areas though), but on the grand scale of things, the Imperium is still well ahead.

Tau do not use Titans because they do not see the need for them. They draw alot of attention and cannot manouvre easily. Why would they need Titans when the Manta can Fly, deliver a similar level of firepower, there are more of them and can carry troops?

They have Ships. While not fully on par with Imperial versions they are actually improving theirs constantly and developing new ones.

Power armour - they have Crisis, stealth stuits and all sorts of other suit variants. If i remember correctly they are controlled by the Tau actually becoming the suit and controlling it like they would their body.

They also do not see a need for man-portable anti tank weapons. That is what Crisis suits are for. Each unit has their own purpose.

The Imperium, while it has access to more powerful technology, much of it is not actually being made by them anymore, nor do they know how it works. Technically that would mean they aren't ahead of the Tau in those areas, they just found some old technology and use it.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Tau do not use Titans because they do not see the need for them. They draw alot of attention and cannot manouvre easily. Why would they need Titans when the Manta can Fly, deliver a similar level of firepower, there are more of them and can carry troops?

Because the Mantas are even larger targets? Seriously, they're Titan-sized flyers, they're gonna get hit by every single AA gun that is availabe and will be far more of a target than a Titan would ever be.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
They have Ships. While not fully on par with Imperial versions they are actually improving theirs constantly and developing new ones.

Implying that the Imperium isn't constantly improving theirs. Also, my argument was that the Imperium had an advantage compared to the Tau, good to see you agree.

Mentlegen324 wrote:Power armour - they have Crisis, stealth stuits and all sorts of other suit variants. If i remember correctly they are controlled by the Tau actually becoming the suit and controlling it like they would their body.

They're slightly smaller than Dreadnoughts; I wouldn't call that "Power Armour", more like, you know, a suit. Otherwise the Dreadknight would count and, well, that's pretty damn advanced.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
They also do not see a need for man-portable anti tank weapons. That is what Crisis suits are for. Each unit has their own purpose.

Which is completely irrelevant. The argument was that the Imperium has better man-portable anti-tank weapons, which they do. Don't move the goalposts.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
The Imperium, while it has access to more powerful technology, much of it is not actually being made by them anymore, nor do they know how it works. Technically that would mean they aren't ahead of the Tau in those areas, they just found some old technology and use it.

"Much of it" such as? The only pieces of technology the Imperium posesses that they can't reproduce (that I can think of) is the Golden Throne, the Astronomican and that one sensor station in DoW II.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Tau do not use Titans because they do not see the need for them. They draw alot of attention and cannot manouvre easily. Why would they need Titans when the Manta can Fly, deliver a similar level of firepower, there are more of them and can carry troops?

Because the Mantas are even larger targets? Seriously, they're Titan-sized flyers, they're gonna get hit by every single AA gun that is availabe and will be far more of a target than a Titan would ever be.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
They have Ships. While not fully on par with Imperial versions they are actually improving theirs constantly and developing new ones.

Implying that the Imperium isn't constantly improving theirs. Also, my argument was that the Imperium had an advantage compared to the Tau, good to see you agree.

Mentlegen324 wrote:Power armour - they have Crisis, stealth stuits and all sorts of other suit variants. If i remember correctly they are controlled by the Tau actually becoming the suit and controlling it like they would their body.

They're slightly smaller than Dreadnoughts; I wouldn't call that "Power Armour", more like, you know, a suit. Otherwise the Dreadknight would count and, well, that's pretty damn advanced.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
They also do not see a need for man-portable anti tank weapons. That is what Crisis suits are for. Each unit has their own purpose.

Which is completely irrelevant. The argument was that the Imperium has better man-portable anti-tank weapons, which they do. Don't move the goalposts.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
The Imperium, while it has access to more powerful technology, much of it is not actually being made by them anymore, nor do they know how it works. Technically that would mean they aren't ahead of the Tau in those areas, they just found some old technology and use it.

"Much of it" such as? The only pieces of technology the Imperium posesses that they can't reproduce (that I can think of) is the Golden Throne, the Astronomican and that one sensor station in DoW II.

Not everything can hit a manta as it is a fast moving flying object, unlike titans which anything can hit quite easily. Manta's would not be as much of a target as a Titan, and they are easier to produce. They have no need for Titans. Mantas are also not the size of Titans (Except for a Warhound)

The imperium is not constantly improving their technology, very little is actually improved and even then it takes a long time. The Imperium has an advantage for now.

A Crisis suit is certainly not comparable to a Dreadnought. It's a suit of powerarmour. The DreadKnight is vehicle sized, and is not advanced at all. Tau Crisis suits are Fast, manouvreable suits of armour. Dreadnoughts are vehicles. Dreadknights are Vehicles.

Saying that Tau do not use man-portable anti-tank weapons is not irrelevant at all. It is completely relevent. Obviously the Imperium will have better ones when the Tau don't even need them.

Lots of technology is either lost, difficult to produce or just completely unknown. For example, Teleportation technology, Graviton weapons, Void weapons, cloaking technology, Terminator armour, Dreadnoughts and lots of other stuff. They have access to them, but in many cases they have no idea how it works. Some of it they can make more, but is is very slow and expensive to make.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Not everything can hit a manta as it is a fast moving flying object, unlike titans which anything can hit quite easily. Manta's would not be as much of a target as a Titan, and they are easier to produce. They have no need for Titans. Mantas are also not the size of Titans (Except for a Warhound)

Everything that DOES hit will deal way more damage, because the Mantas are flying and don't have void shields.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
The imperium is not constantly improving their technology, very little is actually improved and even then it takes a long time. The Imperium has an advantage for now.

New STCs are discovered, new technologies are invented. I'd say that qualifies as constantly improving technology.

Mentlegen324 wrote:

A Crisis suit is certainly not comparable to a Dreadnought. It's a suit of powerarmour. The DreadKnight is vehicle sized, and is not advanced at all. Tau Crisis suits are Fast, manouvreable suits of armour. Dreadnoughts are vehicles. Dreadknights are Vehicles.

No, really, both Dreadknights and Dreadnoughts are piloted by one dude, so it's totally a suit of power armour! Notice how silly that argument sounds? Also, you kinda lost all credibility by claiming that Dreadknights aren't advanced. They teleport throught THE FRIGGIN' WARP AT WILL WITH PINPOINT ACCURACY. That technology alone leaves the so-called mobility of the Tau battlesuits miles behind, especially considering that it's downscaleable to backpack-size.

Mentlegen324 wrote:

Lots of technology is either lost, difficult to produce or just completely unknown. For example, Teleportation technology, Graviton weapons, Void weapons, cloaking technology, Terminator armour, Dreadnoughts and lots of other stuff. They have access to them, but in many cases they have no idea how it works. Some of it they can make more, but is is very slow and expensive to make.

So what? They still make them. Again, the Tau have better technology in some areas, of which quite a few are pretty significant, but as a whole, the Imperium is still way ahead.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Not everything can hit a manta as it is a fast moving flying object, unlike titans which anything can hit quite easily. Manta's would not be as much of a target as a Titan, and they are easier to produce. They have no need for Titans. Mantas are also not the size of Titans (Except for a Warhound)

Everything that DOES hit will deal way more damage, because the Mantas are flying and don't have void shields.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
The imperium is not constantly improving their technology, very little is actually improved and even then it takes a long time. The Imperium has an advantage for now.

New STCs are discovered, new technologies are invented. I'd say that qualifies as constantly improving technology.

Mentlegen324 wrote:

A Crisis suit is certainly not comparable to a Dreadnought. It's a suit of powerarmour. The DreadKnight is vehicle sized, and is not advanced at all. Tau Crisis suits are Fast, manouvreable suits of armour. Dreadnoughts are vehicles. Dreadknights are Vehicles.

No, really, both Dreadknights and Dreadnoughts are piloted by one dude, so it's totally a suit of power armour! Notice how silly that argument sounds? Also, you kinda lost all credibility by claiming that Dreadknights aren't advanced. They teleport throught THE FRIGGIN' WARP AT WILL WITH PINPOINT ACCURACY. That technology alone leaves the so-called mobility of the Tau battlesuits miles behind, especially considering that it's downscaleable to backpack-size.

Mentlegen324 wrote:

Lots of technology is either lost, difficult to produce or just completely unknown. For example, Teleportation technology, Graviton weapons, Void weapons, cloaking technology, Terminator armour, Dreadnoughts and lots of other stuff. They have access to them, but in many cases they have no idea how it works. Some of it they can make more, but is is very slow and expensive to make.

So what? They still make them. Again, the Tau have better technology in some areas, of which quite a few are pretty significant, but as a whole, the Imperium is still way ahead.

The Manta is the primary space bomber and Cadre transport of the Tau. It will have Tau shields on it and is the smallest ship within the Tau fleet, it is not going to stay in one spot for long. Titans are hard to move.

At no point did i say Dreadknights and Dreadnoughts are power armour, nor that a Crisis suit is because it is controlled by one person. A Stealth Suit or an XV22 would be more comparable to a Space Marine and a Crisis suit would be more comparable to a Terminator.

Sorry, i got the Dreadknight wrong. I do not own a Grey Knight codex so did not know they could teleport. From just looking at the model it seemed quite low-tech considering when the Grey Knight lifts his arms so does the Dreadknight. I was wrong about that.

The innovation and initiative are frowned upon by the Adeptus Mechanicus. While they do recover old technology and very rarely make changes to things, they definately do not do so to the same scale as the Tau.

I am not saying that the Tau are more advanced in all areas at all. Much Imperial technology would not be understood by the Tau, but then again it's also not understood by the Imperium. The Imperium certaintly has better technology in many areas, but they just found old technology and use it without fully knowing how it works. The Tau actually know how all their stuff works and are constantly improving it.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
At no point did i say Dreadknights and Dreadnoughts are power armour, nor that a Crisis suit is because it is controlled by one person. A Stealth Suit or an XV22 would be more comparable to a Space Marine and a Crisis suit would be more comparable to a Terminator.

The point is, even GW themselves list Crisis and Broadside Suits as having pilots, not as being armour they simply don. If you compare the Crisis Suit to Terminator Armour, the Terminator Armour still wins because it's sturdier and deployed by teleportation, circumventing the need for them to be very mobile in the first place (hey, if the "they don't need it" argument is fine for Tau man-portable anti-tank, it should be valid here too!).

Well, to be correct terminator armors are something totally different
since they weren't developed for combat in the first place iirc...
Was something with plasma core maintenance me thinks.

Krisis suits just don't have any counter part in the imperial army, it's as simple as that.
Power armor could have the counter part in the Stealth suits,
but then again they are not really comparable either.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:
At no point did i say Dreadknights and Dreadnoughts are power armour, nor that a Crisis suit is because it is controlled by one person. A Stealth Suit or an XV22 would be more comparable to a Space Marine and a Crisis suit would be more comparable to a Terminator.

The point is, even GW themselves list Crisis and Broadside Suits as having pilots, not as being armour they simply don. If you compare the Crisis Suit to Terminator Armour, the Terminator Armour still wins because it's sturdier and deployed by teleportation, circumventing the need for them to be very mobile in the first place (hey, if the "they don't need it" argument is fine for Tau man-portable anti-tank, it should be valid here too!).

There is difference between Tau not requiring Man-Portable anti-tank weapons due to the way they fight, and terminators not being manouvreable. Terminators were not designed with the purpose of being slow, that is just a downside - and not all Terminators teleport.

The new FAQ's are out and the only armies that did not receive an update were Tau and Black Templar.... Interesting or am I reading too much into it?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:

A Crisis suit is certainly not comparable to a Dreadnought. It's a suit of powerarmour. The DreadKnight is vehicle sized, and is not advanced at all. Tau Crisis suits are Fast, manouvreable suits of armour. Dreadnoughts are vehicles. Dreadknights are Vehicles.

No, really, both Dreadknights and Dreadnoughts are piloted by one dude, so it's totally a suit of power armour! Notice how silly that argument sounds? Also, you kinda lost all credibility by claiming that Dreadknights aren't advanced. They teleport throught THE FRIGGIN' WARP AT WILL WITH PINPOINT ACCURACY. That technology alone leaves the so-called mobility of the Tau battlesuits miles behind, especially considering that it's downscaleable to backpack-size.

I really don't understand this, it's not power armour, It's Tactical Dreadknight Armour, plus, Tau would not have a mecha suit, they believe in a way which combines maximum protection with good mobility and a Mecha Suit would not make sense as it would be slow and cumbersome. Sure, the Broadside is a slow suit, but the fact is it still has a 2+ save a S10 AP1 weapon and it can still move with an upgrade which I think should be compulsory in the new codex. The fact that in the rumours an assault transport doesn't really make any sense either, sure all Tau players, including myself would love to be able to perform drive by's, but in the fluff it says that all Tau vehicles are pressureized to maximize transport efficiency so they aren't Open Topped and there are no fire points.

Plus you can't really say that a Dreadknight's Technology is advanced through scientific technology, without them being psykers, they wouldn't have the Dreadknight teleporters! So from a scientific point of view it is the Tau, Necrons and Tyranids that have the best technology in the game.

Don't forget elder. For the best tech, I would have to say that crons, tau and elder have the best tech. Why would nids count? Hang on. I'm going to make a poll of this.

Lets just talk about Tau rumours, not your fanboyism.

Sigh.

I just hope my thousands upon thousands of points of tau don't become obsolete and trash with the new units being exclusively playable.

Ledabot wrote:Don't forget elder. For the best tech, I would have to say that crons, tau and elder have the best tech. Why would nids count? Hang on. I'm going to make a poll of this.

Because Nids are pure technology, All of their technology is pure living things that are able to mutate and change to maximize effectiveness or immunity, But yeah i forgot Eldar and their Darker Kin

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Ledabot wrote:Don't forget elder. For the best tech, I would have to say that crons, tau and elder have the best tech. Why would nids count? Hang on. I'm going to make a poll of this.

Because Nids are pure technology, All of their technology is pure living things that are able to mutate and change to maximize effectiveness or immunity, But yeah i forgot Eldar and their Darker Kin

That's not tech, that's evolution.

And really, the way I see it:

----------Necrons
--Eldar--------------Tau--------
Everything else.

Necrons first, tau and eldar tied for second, though closer now, as tbh their technology seems less impressive than oldcrons.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Necrons first, tau and eldar tied for second, though closer now, as tbh their technology seems less impressive than oldcrons.

If you give Tau weapons to BS4 Eldar, you get a broken codex.

im2randomghgh wrote:That's not tech, that's evolution.

What the nids currently engage in is bio-engineering not evolution. It's not a random process carried out over millions of years by un-intelligent forces. Its the deliberate and intelligent selection, adaption, and creation of genes within living organisms to create new species of assualt and support life-forms by the will of the Hivemind, which can be carried out in months, weeks, or even days. I would consider that as technology, just one that uses bio-mechanics rather than non-living machines.

Oaka wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Necrons first, tau and eldar tied for second, though closer now, as tbh their technology seems less impressive than oldcrons.

If you give Tau weapons to BS4 Eldar, you get a broken codex.

If you give tau railrifles to BS4 eldar, you get a broken game.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Oaka wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Necrons first, tau and eldar tied for second, though closer now, as tbh their technology seems less impressive than oldcrons.

If you give Tau weapons to BS4 Eldar, you get a broken codex.

If you give tau railrifles to BS4 eldar, you get a broken game.

If you give 6th ed tau railrifles to BS4 eldar, you divide by zero...

IPS wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Oaka wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Necrons first, tau and eldar tied for second, though closer now, as tbh their technology seems less impressive than oldcrons.

If you give Tau weapons to BS4 Eldar, you get a broken codex.

If you give tau railrifles to BS4 eldar, you get a broken game.

If you give 6th ed tau railrifles to BS4 eldar, you divide by zero...

Bbbb...but that meens.......

RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!

im2randomghgh wrote:

Oaka wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Necrons first, tau and eldar tied for second, though closer now, as tbh their technology seems less impressive than oldcrons.

If you give Tau weapons to BS4 Eldar, you get a broken codex.

If you give tau railrifles to BS4 eldar, you get a broken game.

Oh wow, 3 Wounds from an AP3 gun, what ever will i do with this pinning test :O

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
I really don't understand this, it's not power armour, It's Tactical Dreadknight Armour, plus, Tau would not have a mecha suit, they believe in a way which combines maximum protection with good mobility and a Mecha Suit would not make sense as it would be slow and cumbersome. .

Unless you did something to solve that problem... such as adding a teleporter.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
Plus you can't really say that a Dreadknight's Technology is advanced through scientific technology, without them being psykers, they wouldn't have the Dreadknight teleporters! So from a scientific point of view it is the Tau, Necrons and Tyranids that have the best technology in the game.

No true scotsman. Good job, keep moving the goalposts and this'll be over in no time!

Mentlegen324 wrote:
There is difference between Tau not requiring Man-Portable anti-tank weapons due to the way they fight, and terminators not being manouvreable. Terminators were not designed with the purpose of being slow, that is just a downside - and not all Terminators teleport.

No, Space Wolf Terminators don't teleport. Good job.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
Plus you can't really say that a Dreadknight's Technology is advanced through scientific technology, without them being psykers, they wouldn't have the Dreadknight teleporters! So from a scientific point of view it is the Tau, Necrons and Tyranids that have the best technology in the game.

No true scotsman. Good job, keep moving the goalposts and this'll be over in no time!.

This Isn't Football so there are no Goalposts!

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Oaka wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Necrons first, tau and eldar tied for second, though closer now, as tbh their technology seems less impressive than oldcrons.

If you give Tau weapons to BS4 Eldar, you get a broken codex.

If you give tau railrifles to BS4 eldar, you get a broken game.

Oh wow, 3 Wounds from an AP3 gun, what ever will i do with this pinning test :O

S6 AP3 as a basic weapon on a BS4 platform? Broken as hell.

im2randomghgh wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Oaka wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Necrons first, tau and eldar tied for second, though closer now, as tbh their technology seems less impressive than oldcrons.

If you give Tau weapons to BS4 Eldar, you get a broken codex.

If you give tau railrifles to BS4 eldar, you get a broken game.

Oh wow, 3 Wounds from an AP3 gun, what ever will i do with this pinning test :O

S6 AP3 as a basic weapon on a BS4 platform? Broken as hell.

Yeah but you could only have 3 of them!

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
Plus you can't really say that a Dreadknight's Technology is advanced through scientific technology, without them being psykers, they wouldn't have the Dreadknight teleporters! So from a scientific point of view it is the Tau, Necrons and Tyranids that have the best technology in the game.

No true scotsman. Good job, keep moving the goalposts and this'll be over in no time!.

This Isn't Football so there are no Goalposts!

On the countrary, I think you'll find that there is.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
Plus you can't really say that a Dreadknight's Technology is advanced through scientific technology, without them being psykers, they wouldn't have the Dreadknight teleporters! So from a scientific point of view it is the Tau, Necrons and Tyranids that have the best technology in the game.

No true scotsman. Good job, keep moving the goalposts and this'll be over in no time!.

This Isn't Football so there are no Goalposts!

On the countrary, I think you'll find that there is.

This is not a process or a competition, this is a debate!

You guys are off topic. If you want to descuss technology, go the the thread I made http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/423998.page

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
Plus you can't really say that a Dreadknight's Technology is advanced through scientific technology, without them being psykers, they wouldn't have the Dreadknight teleporters! So from a scientific point of view it is the Tau, Necrons and Tyranids that have the best technology in the game.

No true scotsman. Good job, keep moving the goalposts and this'll be over in no time!.

This Isn't Football so there are no Goalposts!

On the countrary, I think you'll find that there is.

This is not a process or a competition, this is a debate!

I'd say a debate can count as both a process or a debate. Perhaps I should've linked this instead. Anyhow, we're getting off-topic, so I suggest we agree to disagree.

Back on topic:
I seem to remember someone mentioning a "suicide drone" some pages back (or maybe I'm just misremembering). Suppose that Skyrays got some sort of modified Seeker Missile that worked like a beefed-up frag missile, allowing it to auto-hit these suicide drones even if they were in close combat? That could be a way to increase Tau CC potential without increasing raw CC potential, and it'd be fluffy too ("oh snap, Shas'ui McFail is in close combat! He's gonna die anyway, target his drone for the Greater Good!).

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Oaka wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Necrons first, tau and eldar tied for second, though closer now, as tbh their technology seems less impressive than oldcrons.

If you give Tau weapons to BS4 Eldar, you get a broken codex.

If you give tau railrifles to BS4 eldar, you get a broken game.

Oh wow, 3 Wounds from an AP3 gun, what ever will i do with this pinning test :O

S6 AP3 as a basic weapon on a BS4 platform? Broken as hell.

Yeah but you could only have 3 of them!

Read the bolded part. Basic weapon is like a bolter on a marine, or a pulse rifle on a Firewarrior.

Do not post Banal and Flamey statements please. MT11

im2randomghgh wrote:
That's not tech, that's evolution.

And really, the way I see it:

----------Necrons
--Eldar--------------Tau--------
Everything else.

Necrons first, tau and eldar tied for second, though closer now, as tbh their technology seems less impressive than oldcrons.

Bit of a misuse on the word evolution there. Its a common misconception to assume that evolution means things consistently get better, which isn't true.

Lemondish wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
That's not tech, that's evolution.

And really, the way I see it:

----------Necrons
--Eldar--------------Tau--------
Everything else.

Necrons first, tau and eldar tied for second, though closer now, as tbh their technology seems less impressive than oldcrons.

Bit of a misuse on the word evolution there. Its a common misconception to assume that evolution means things consistently get better, which isn't true.

They do evolve though. I think I remember some tyranid fleet adapting to be almost immune to lasguns...or was that pulse rifles? I dunno.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
That's not tech, that's evolution.

And really, the way I see it:

----------Necrons
--Eldar--------------Tau--------
Everything else.

Necrons first, tau and eldar tied for second, though closer now, as tbh their technology seems less impressive than oldcrons.

Bit of a misuse on the word evolution there. Its a common misconception to assume that evolution means things consistently get better, which isn't true.

They do evolve though. I think I remember some tyranid fleet adapting to be almost immune to lasguns...or was that pulse rifles? I dunno.

It depends on what they're fighting. Against IG or Tau, they'll evolve a thermal dispersive carapace. Against SMs and such they'll evolve a denser hardened carapace. And yeah, you can't call Tyranids the pinnacle of technology. Technology is the deliberate invention of material objects. Evolution is just a physiological reaction to ambient circumstances. In the Tyranids case it's a very functional substitute for tech, but it's still not the same thing.

As with much fluff there isn't a lot of considered science going on with Tyranids.

GW have always written down stuff that sounds cool and justified it with a bit of sciencey blurb.

Please forgive me to post some on topc stuff:

Harry wrote:There is so much stuff to come before Tau there is no way they are coming before 6th edition
Tau have got pushed up the release order in everyones head because of one guys rumour (Late last year) that they would be out in six months ... They were wrong.
I am not expecting them within six months from now. (Bit longer than that actually)
Given that .... the book isn't written yet.
Given that .... some of the rumours have to be complete bobbins.

The Dude wrote:Like all of them with the possible exception of some miniatures rumours

.... and some of those are bobbins too.

That's not tech, that's evolution.

And really, the way I see it:

----------Necrons
--Eldar--------------Tau--------
Everything else.

Necrons first, tau and eldar tied for second, though closer now, as tbh their technology seems less impressive than oldcrons

I'm sorry but both craftworld and dark eldar have far superior tech to tau.And with regard to the tyranids it's definitively not evolution I'd call it bio-engineering.

Harry wrote:

TastyTaste wrote:Didn't interpret your previous response as being quite as definite as this one. Still good to know though.

Just to clarify - are you saying that as the army isn't going to be released within 6 months then the book probably isn't finished yet, and therefore some or all of the rumoured rules are rubbish or it's unlikely they'll be released within the next 6 months because the book isn't written yet?

I can see how that can be read both ways.
I am saying the first of those .... If I am right, and they are not coming out in the next six months, then the book probably isn't finished yet and therefore some of the rumoured rules are rubbish. (or premature at best) Some of them were posted before the book was started so we can all agree they must be a bit suspect.
If the book were out in the next 6 months the book would be signed off finished and on its way to the printers. It isn't.

Commissar Davis wrote:I have a little info regarding some kind of set back, Eldar may come out before Tau. Those with their own contacts may want to look into this, as mine thinks they as getting some dis/misinformation

Garanaul the Black wrote:For what it's worth, I have heard something similar.

Rocky1 wrote:

That's not tech, that's evolution.

And really, the way I see it:

----------Necrons
--Eldar--------------Tau--------
Everything else.

Necrons first, tau and eldar tied for second, though closer now, as tbh their technology seems less impressive than oldcrons

I'm sorry but both craftworld and dark eldar have far superior tech to tau.And with regard to the tyranids it's definitively not evolution I'd call it bio-engineering.

Their tech tends to outperform tau tech, but it is based around their psychic energy i.e. not having triggers due to psychic will being used as a firing mechanism. Their actual science, and the advancement of their tech, is not above tau.

Kroothawk wrote:

Harry wrote:

TastyTaste wrote:Didn't interpret your previous response as being quite as definite as this one. Still good to know though.

Just to clarify - are you saying that as the army isn't going to be released within 6 months then the book probably isn't finished yet, and therefore some or all of the rumoured rules are rubbish or it's unlikely they'll be released within the next 6 months because the book isn't written yet?

I can see how that can be read both ways.
I am saying the first of those .... If I am right, and they are not coming out in the next six months, then the book probably isn't finished yet and therefore some of the rumoured rules are rubbish. (or premature at best) Some of them were posted before the book was started so we can all agree they must be a bit suspect.
If the book were out in the next 6 months the book would be signed off finished and on its way to the printers. It isn't.

Commissar Davis wrote:I have a little info regarding some kind of set back, Eldar may come out before Tau. Those with their own contacts may want to look into this, as mine thinks they as getting some dis/misinformation

Garanaul the Black wrote:For what it's worth, I have heard something similar.

Owww. I'm made my birthday wish that it would come out soon.... as in 1st half of the year.

Kroothawk wrote:Please forgive me to post some on topc stuff:

Well, This is tau we are talking about, and what we're talking about makes much more sense than some of these rumours!