First a necessary disclaimer: Rumours about an upcoming Codex Tau Empire come up every now and then, the last summary on the Heresy Online forum predicting an August release this year. Harry thinks that Tau are still farer away than most people think. Ghost21 has a reputation of providing loads of rumours, with most dealing with the far future, one being spot on (Dreadfleet) and one being far off (Augst release of Sororitas models, with detailed description of the released models). So I present a summary of ghost21's Tau rumours (he is the only source) as provided by Warseer's Tastyfish, but I can't guarantee the reliability and personally remain sceptical until at least some more of his rumours turn out to be true. And I will edit ghost21's spelling and grammar as always

I will try to keep this first post updated. Again thanks to Tasytfish for providing the original summary which I just reorganised a bit (and will probably expand in the future).

Edit: Added some stuff including rumours by other posters. Harry also estimates a tau release just before 6th edition. Frgt/10 thinks all miniatures are done.

General Codex rumours

Not the next book, but probably after Black Templars
Seems in proofreading stage.
Author may be Phil Kelly
Seems to be ast 5th edition Codex

Tau Units

Army has 4 basic HQs and 3 basic troop choices excluding changes made by any Special Characters if there are any

Return of 4 old SC, plus 2-4 new ones
New SC "Iceheart"
No Court of the Archon/henchmen type mixed units

Ethereals may get increased BS and preferred enemy.

Stealth suit mechanics may change, markerlights won't change much.

New sniper suit (seems to be the snipersuit mentioned below)

Shas'O get a stealth armour option, may be an experimental suit like Shadowsuns, or the experimental suit might be a third option

4 new 'Tau' units: Note these will not all probably be in the first release - there's 2-3 plastic kits here and we already know 3 for the 4 that are coming out.
Dropship (carries up to 15 models or 2 battlesuits and 10 models, or 5 battlesuits)
Fighter (flyer)
Snipersuits
"Ubersuit"

The Ubersuit is a Battletech/Mechwarrior sort of thing (probably Dreadknight sized), with a special 'ridiculous' ability that lets it rain down shooting if it stands still.
Looks a bit like one of the Battletech Mechs that is named after an ancient weapon


New Tau models
4 box sets, and 4 blisters in wave 1
Demiurg plastic box
Battlesuit plastic box (maybe including sniper and broadside)
Vespid plastic box (redesign that looks much cooler)
Assault transport(?)

Demiurg ancient blister
New Tau SC blister

Crisis suits have been completely redesigned (not just recut sprues and ankle tweaks), less boxy and including a 'morphic weapon'
Hammerhead and Skyray stay the same.

Allies and Auxiliaries

Vespids get two slots. They get a heavy version (in addition to the assault unit) with some sort of heavy weapons.
Just for reference, here an old Vespid concept sketch:

ghost21 wrote:One of those is close to the vespid heavy.

Kroot get an additional unit
No Knarloc riders,though perhaps something big (new WFB monster-szied) for the Kroot
Kroot fieldcraft rule - presumably switched to Stealth and Infiltrate USR
Maybe minor psychic powers for Shapers or Shaper like character this is something Ghost has heard from other people and not stated directly

Demiurg have 1 HQ, 1 troop and maybe 1 else. Presumably the Elite choice mentioned elsewhere
Demiurg ancients are a thing Probably HQ, but could also be the elite unit
Possible Demiurg elite choice

Demiurg Ancients: Think of them as cranky old wise men who saw the Imperium in its infancy. They have seen the Eldar come and go, and thought it was just another decadent empire, though they normally take hundreds of years to make a decision. The tau have something special the demiurg like.
Demiurg are "equal to banshees without the scream" so presumably anti-armour close combat, or at least have that as an option. This might also be elite unit rather than the troop one, or be a unit that does both - like a kit that would let you make Boyz and Ard Boyz (or Dwarfs and Longbeards). An elite unit, but being an upgrade to a troop slot to keep out the way of the battlesuits.

Demiurg are apparently a lot less Dwarfish than the initial concepts, instead being more like little stone golems (Ozruk from WoW was mentioned)
As a tongue in cheek nod to the fate of the squats, there is a named Demiurg (who may or may not make it as a SC) who survived fighting Tyranids and personally killed a large monster by drilling his way out after being "Swallowed up by the 'Nids"
This Demiurg is aware that the Ethereals have some kind of power over the Tau (maybe other races too) but not the Demiurg, who have presumably signed up for political reasons and of their own free will

Demiurg and one other new race join the army, the latter being something bizarre or at least something we've not seen before.

urm yes close....

No Gue'vesa (human auxiliary troop) unit or models

No Nicassar.

No Zoats.

"All I know about the other race is: they MAY have 6 limbs."
"They have plans for this guy from an old concept sketch":


Rumours not by ghost21:

The Man They Call Jayne from Second Shere forum http://secondsphere.org/index.php/topic,129654.0.html :

I have heard a few rumours for the GW high up through a mate. His source is GWs own Phil Kelly, who has just started work on the Tau Codex.
1.) 6th ed boxset is set to be Eldar Vs CSMs, as they will be the among the first 6th ed codexes.
2) Eldar will be first, then Tau or CSMs
(...)
A new "Insectoid" Tau Aux race. Thats all I know on that bit though. Not niccasar it would seem.
Forgeworld stuff is moving across too. TX-42 and Hazard. Maybe even the Remora.

Frgt/10 wrote:All the new Tau models are done; Dave Thomas worked on them for roughly 18 months and he's finished them all now.
They're just waiting for a releases slot, I don't now when that is but my guess it is has since been locked in since I found out this info.

Harry wrote:Dave has been working on something pretty big. (Helpful as always. )

Also Frgt/10 is correct in that Dave Thomas has been exclusiely on Tau for 18 months but he is not 100% correct. Whilst MOST of the models are done. My understanding is Dave Thomas still had some bits and bobs to do. (i am guessing finishing characters?)

But even so that means they could be in the next six months.

(But I am not expecting them quite this soon).

Frgt/10 wrote:also Harry I heard down here that he was 100% done with them, hence why he was in oz for GD. Or have you heard otherwise in the last month or so?

Harry wrote:I don't know when they are released.
I just said six months could be possible.
I have them for the early summer in my, constantly updated, release schedule as the release right before 6th Edition
(...)
What I heard was ... 'The Empire is expanding to include More races' (Plural)

From 10-21-11:

Liberium Online's Jared Van Kell wrote:The Tau codex belongs to Cruddace, lets get that fact straight. That is all I am going to say on that issue.
Black Templars on the other hand was always going to be Phil Kelly's pet project. The only way Ward or Cruddace would ever get the Black Templars codex off him would be to prise the rough drafts out from his cold...dead...hands.

Unless of course they offered him the Dwarf Army Book...............(whistles innocently).

From 11-18-11:

Jared Von Kell wrote:Some of these rumours [In regards to rumor sumamry posted up on BOLS] are spot on others not so spot on. 4 generic HQs are the Tau Commander, Tau Ethereal, Kroot Master Shaper and Demiurg Ancient. Blisters are, as far as I am aware, a new Tau Ethereal, Demiurg Ancient and 2 special character blisters.

From 11-19-11:

Liberium Online's Jared Von Kell wrote:I've also heard that the Skyray will be getting a better choice of missiles in addition to the Seeker missile which is believed to be S6 AP4 Blast, however you have to choose the missile type at the beginning of the game so you cannot mix and match. Despite the payload ts main role will still be target marking.

From 11-25-11:

Jared Von Kell of Liberium Online wrote:The Demiurg Special character is apparently the one called Iceheart.

The Battletech Mech in question is the Warhammer IIC mech (no joke about the name.) one of the unseen mechs in the battletech universe. The suit itself is quite big, not quite dreadknight sized but it can "brace".....yes Matt Ward does play Spacemarine. The trouble is that it will be competing against Broadsides, Skyrays and Hammerheads, all of which have improved, a lot.

From 11-26-11:

Jared Von Kell of Liberium Online wrote:Well from what I can understand from the mechanic is this. A particular troop type is associated with a particular HQ but in doing so confers a special ability on those troop types.

Tau Ethereal - Unlocks Tau Firewarrior teams.
Tau Fire Commander - Unlocks Tau XV8 Crisis Battlesuit teams.
Kroot Shaper - Unlocks Kroot Carnivore squads.
Demiurg Ancient - Unlocks Demiurg Warrior squads.

I can understand the thought process behind the mechanic from what I know of the basic fluff regarding the Tau.
However I would have thought that Firewarriors would have always remained as basic troops and an Ethereal would have unlocked Honour Guard but it seems from the snippets of info I've been able to peice together that an Ethereal confers Preferred Enemy (Everything) and BS4 on those Firewarrior squads he leads making Honour Guard redundant.

Sorry I misread your question. You referring to the models and I was referring to the rules in my answer as I was in a bit of a hurry when I replied.

As far as I an aware none of the existing plastic kits are going to be changing so the firewarrior and tank models will stay as they are now.

This means you can get your brother started now.

Again sorry for the confusion.

From 11-29-11:

Jared Von Kell of Liberium Online wrote:All that I can say is known about the Demiurg is that they are the Tau's main anti-MEQ unit. How effective they are I cannot say.

From 12-1-11:

Jared Van Kell of Liberium Online wrote:Actually you might be surprised. My sources and the several other rumour mongers have started indicating that Templars might actually be next followed by Tau, this is normally a sign for me that what I am hearing is correct but with recent developments such things are by no means certain.
I have however recently discovered that the Tau are in the proofreading stage of development which means that the codex is written but it has not yet quite gone to the printers. Now this means that all GW have to do is give the nod and the codex can be printed in numbers pretty quickly. All they then have to do is ramp up the advertisement, distribution and product support and we have them ready to go for our very much enjoyment.

From 12-29-11 by BoLS

40K RUMORS: Tau Upgrades
Posted by Bigred at Thursday, December 29, 2011

So, here's the latest word on the rumored upcoming Codex: Tau Empire

They say the Tau are ever expanding their empire with not only new member races, but steadily updating and improving their equipment. Lets get to it:

-Demiurg Units ~plural
-New Vespid unit and a new weapon for the wasp-men.
-New FireWarrior heavy weapons - expect new anti-tank / anti- infantry heavy weapon choices on a 1 special per X ratio (probably 1 per 5 or 10 fire Warriors)
-Plastic Barricuda (or other renamed fighter)
-Possible Human allies (Rogue IG militia that joined the Tau Empire) ~said to be the iffy-est of these rumors.
-New Kroot HQ choice (with the ability to "unlock a Kroot themed army) ~sounds like an homage to the old Kroot Mercs list.
-Kroot Carnivores upgraded to either a 5+ or a 6+ save by default.

From 1-2-12 by BoLS:

40K RUMORS Tau Upgrades - Part 2
Posted by Bigred at Monday, January 02, 2012

-Battlesuit Commander: shifts ONE battlesuit unit to a Troops FOC slot.
-New Close Combat Battlesuit
-New Ethereal named character
-Ethereals will get upgraded to be the "leader" role in the Tau Empire army. (so not the best BS, or WS, but other interesting army-support tricks)
-New deepstriking Dropship (an Orca-ish platform on par with the IG valkyrie)
-Up-gunned Drone variants (specific anti-tank and anti-heavy infantry options) which can be attached to almost every TAU unit in the codex


~Hmm. Off to start expanding my Tau Empire army now before the bum rush in a few months...

Old rumours by stickmonkey September last year:

New Heavy support platform. Basically immobile deep striked! heavy weapon and crew. Rail and Ion Cannon, and missile launcher are all obvious options here, but nothing solid with the rumor.

Assault Skimmer. Something between size of piranha and hammerhead, fast skimmer open topped, assault on disembark.
Update: Yes, its assault after a flat out move, and has the "drop troops along path" option similar to the storm raven. its supposedly a dedicated transport option for one new unit. (I don't place faith in this last bit, its very rare in current GW systems to see a vehicle kit limited to one unit/role...if GW is trying to sell them they will be available to more than one unit, or be a separate entry unto itself.)

New Drop ship. Not the FW one, but something new. Holds a boatload of fire warriors, or a few battle suits.

New battle suits. Not sure if these are the "next gen" suits or just heavy suits redone with out metal bits.

notpop wrote:During a mooch around one of the better known Independent Games shops in the UK I was told that GW are no longer accepting orders for Tau stock indicating that a release is proably imminent. So guessing the traditional WFB/40K pattern following Necrons there will be some WFB goodies followed by Tau in the new year.

The bloke who told me was a blowhard so season as appropriate, but the owner corroborated it so I thought that I would put it out there.

Here some old pics from 2008 of sculpted models, unsure if they are released though:

Kroot Shaper


Ejected Battlesuit pilot:


Test sculpts by then trainee Matt Holland shown the same year.

Kroothawk, thank you for reorganizing this.

A transport capable of carrying 5 battlesuits hints that we may see bigger suit squads. Also, seein gas most of our battle suits don't need a transport to get around the field quickly, perhaps this is for the new type of suit.

It being able to carry 15 models may either indicate bigger FW squads or the recognition that our FW squads often have drones and sometimes and IC attached. Then again, carrying 10 models and 2 battlesuits might indicate it carries multiple units.

I'll be disappointed if the Stealth Suit mechanics change. I find the way they currently work (roll to see if you can even see the suit) to be pretty good. About the only thing I could take as an acceptable substitute is them working a lot like the Disruption Pod though perhaps the suit doing better than a 4+ due to it's smaller size and purposefully stealthy construction. Maybe reduce the armour save to 4+ to represnet their somewhat lighter construction.

A while ago, I hypothesized on another board that the Rail Rifle is a logical weapon for the Stealth Teams. While I'm not taking credit for the idea (it seems to obvious to me to claim it as an original thought), perhaps the fusion of rail rifle and stealth suit is giving us this sniper suit being talked about.

The fieldcraft replacement should also include Move Through Cover or ignore Dangerous terrain to keep the Kroot's mobility. The latter also negates the need for an assault grenade.

I don't think (and I rather hope not) that the 'howling banshee' Demiurg are going to be the troop choice. The Kroot already give us an assault troop (though they can't crack vehicles) and the Tau with EMP grenades can crack vehicles (but aren't an assault troop). So to me there is enough overlap for it not to make sense. I suspect our Demi-urg troop will be something that can dig in on top of an objective and not get pushed off.

Of course that's assuming that the Demi-urg are the troop choice. There are a few units (Pathfinders, Sniper Drone Teams) I could see being re-rolled in a future codex.

Somewhat disappointing about the Gue'vesa. They are both highly anticipated in the Tau community and could add a nice disposable troop choice. I figure that the relative populations and the human penchant for high mortality in the 40K universe makes that a natural role in the Empire.



Seeing as the Pathfinders are metal and need a resculpt or be redone as Finecast (Did anybody hear a scream?) those three by Holland may have been prototypes for the new Pathfinders.

As long as I can play my 148 kroot mercs army in the new codex I will be happy. That is without buying any "tau" models. A new kroot heavy would be cool.

Excellent! Now with a page one summary, things will be more streamlined.

Alls I can hope from this book is bringing the tide of swearing by krap wrap to a slower pace.

Clay Williams wrote:As long as I can play my 148 kroot mercs army in the new codex I will be happy. That is without buying any "tau" models. A new kroot heavy would be cool.

Doubt it, unless you are willing to forgo a few soots. It sounds like there will be a Kroot HQ, Kroot Troops and 1 other Kroot unit (I'm guessing heavy support since it's described as big). Unless the Master Shaper lets you modify your units like the Kroot Mercs Apocalypse Data Sheet (which would rock by the way) the units just won't be flexible enough for a full army. Even if they are, without some FOC hi-jinks from the Master Shaper you're going to find yourself limited to 11 slots out of a potential 17 in the FOC meaning your enemy can bring more units than you can in any higher priced game.

Maybe we'll see White Dwarf for the Kroot (yeah, I know, sorry about that) and a new version of Chapter Approved later on including Kroot, Sisters and whatever else they found worthy.

I would be happy if it is possible for us to play a full Auxiliary army (Not because I dislike Tau, I just love the variety).

It's starting to shape up that way by the rumours.

HQ
Demi-urg? and Kroot

Elites
Demi-urg?

Troops
Demi-urg? and Kroot

Fast Attack
Vespid

Heavy Support
Kroot?

Unknown Slots
Vespid and Mystery Alien.

Ignoring special characters that will be 9 auxiliary units spread across the 5 FOC slots, so we may get some Alien action there.

I appreciate your rumor-editing as always KH!

A more racially diverse Tau book is good news. I hope that doesn't mean more mono-pose Finecast models, however. Yes, the Archon Court sculpts were awesome. I'd just like to see non-Tau in squads a la Vespids ... er, except with true multipose or rather simply pose-ability. And hopefully the dex will not be mono-racial in terms of viable builds so that these other xenos get some play.

The Demiurg ... a lot of hopes/fears will be pinned on them if the Warpath threads are any indication. I can't say I think of ghost21's rumors as much more than wishlisting (even if it is studio wishlisting, maybe) so I'm trying to keep myself from being excited. Tau were the first 40k models I ever purchased (unlike some mods and posters here I have not been into this since time immemorial) and I have always really loved them as a faction even if they're current builds don't totally interest me.

Just started my Tau with a 2nd hand score (11 tanks, 50 fire warriors, 10 suits, 2 piranhas $100), looking forward to getting some new models to add to it. Plastic Vespid sounds great, not a fan of metal.

Might have to try and offload the suits though if they're getting a new kit.

Kroothawk wrote:
Seems in proofreading stage.

Must be a new idea they trying.

Thanks, Kroot.

Not being up on the reslease schedules, its BT next then Tau? Or is there something coming before those too?

The Demiurg angle sounds very interesting.

ironhandstraken wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
Seems in proofreading stage.

Must be a new idea they trying.

Don't worry, they are just counting skulls

Ratius wrote:Not being up on the reslease schedules, its BT next then Tau? Or is there something coming before those too?

Harry and ghost21 seem to think that, so yes.

Will they be pre or post 6th ed release?

Hopefully it will have a Suit-Heavy Build (Maybe suits as troops ala-Paladins or Wolfgaurd?). I am hoping that Stealth Suits will suck less, Fire Warriors will have more options, basically I want DE level of overhaul (Wont happen, but I can hope).

Picked up 2 old Tau battleforces for dirt cheap, so will just hold off until we see the new book.

Thanks Kroothawk!

Always good to have a summary!

Subbed!

These rumors are false.

Exhibit A:

Kroothawk wrote:Seems in proofreading stage.

I like the look of the rifles, they look good.

Ohh Tau, my favorite non owned army


Lets just hope it stays away from the new style naming, we don't need Pulse-claws, Pulse-jets, Pulse-rockets or Black-pulse-Xv666-gamebrerakers Mk3


Infact, Pulse-rockets sound cool, let's put them in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsed_rocket_motor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pulse_propulsion

Thanks for the great update (or repository)!

Good summary. Thanks for the updates!

The Ubersuit is a Battletech/Mechwarrior sort of thing (probably Dreadknight sized), with a special 'ridiculous' ability that lets it rain down shooting if it stands still.
Looks a bit like one of the Battletech Mechs that is named after an ancient weapon

Interesting. I'd want to guess Catapult or Longbow based on the whole "raining down fire" part.

I just hope that this stays a Tau army. I.E. - The only HQ options should be Tau. I'm fine with your troops, etc. all being non-Tau, but HQ... it should be Tau. It's Codex: Tau Empire, not Codex: "Mostly Tau but you can play it all as something else if you really want to".

chaos0xomega wrote:I just hope that this stays a Tau army. I.E. - The only HQ options should be Tau. I'm fine with your troops, etc. all being non-Tau, but HQ... it should be Tau. It's Codex: Tau Empire, not Codex: "Mostly Tau but you can play it all as something else if you really want to".

Eh, i'm fine with either/or.

Hell, you can play a non-grey knights list with the grey knights codex.

chaos0xomega wrote:I just hope that this stays a Tau army. I.E. - The only HQ options should be Tau. I'm fine with your troops, etc. all being non-Tau, but HQ... it should be Tau. It's Codex: Tau Empire, not Codex: "Mostly Tau but you can play it all as something else if you really want to".

Codex: Tau Empire
not
Codex: Tau

I certainly don't see a problem with the Tau coming first, but there I do not see why other elements of the Empire should not be allowed to function without Tau supervision.

Granted, all of them working together should in theory produce the best results, as each different faction should plug a different element of the battlefield responsibilities.

CpatTom, I again direct you to the fact that it is Codex: TAU empire. Also, every piece of material from GW and FW have indicated that even the Tau's predominantly non-Tau military formations, such as Auxiliary cadre's etc. are led by Tau officers.

Thanks for making the summary!

I think it'll be funny watching all my tau suits taking orders from Kroot and other races. I wonder how they would feel about that?

Personally I'm fine if this provides a backdoor method of getting an updated Kroot army out there.

Yay Tau....

chaos0xomega wrote:CpatTom, I again direct you to the fact that it is Codex: TAU empire. Also, every piece of material from GW and FW have indicated that even the Tau's predominantly non-Tau military formations, such as Auxiliary cadre's etc. are led by Tau officers.

Well... I'd point out while that may be true, every piece of Necron fluff indicated they were all mindless automatons, enslaved to star-eating godlike beings until a couple weeks ago.

But with Codex: Necrons it's kind of impossible to not build a Necron army. People are trying to argue that it should be possible to build a Tau army with no actual Tau in it, and that doesn't really make sense or even seem reasonable.

That's a good point, and it makes sense, I'm just saying you can't really point to the fluff as an example anymore.

Well, no, GW could change everything and just make "Codex: Xeno Empire" without the Tau being the focus anymore if they wanted to.

Thanks to kroot for putting this stuff together!

Looks promising! a bit exciting isn't it! :-) I always love the rumors and sneaky bits to whet our appetite even if the army isn't one i intend on playing or painting! the big guy with the four arms really gives me a 'PITT' feel to him! i'd be inclined to remove 2 arms and paint him up as such if the model comes to fruition and is released!

and cheers Kroot for keeping us in the one spot! much easier to read!

Nerdfest09

Sidstyler wrote:Well, no, GW could change everything and just make "Codex: Xeno Empire" without the Tau being the focus anymore if they wanted to.

But Tau ideology still shapes the goals of the Empire. Even if the Kroot are just playing along, they're still playing along with Tau rather than Kroot ideology.

This is conjecture, but the rumor from the man they call jayne said that there is another insectoid auxillary unit/ race:

Spoiler added for folks without the Xenology book.

I seriously hope the rules are sorted out to make the book worthwhile in a battlefield sense, not just to sell a load of new alien models.

Sidstyler wrote:But with Codex: Necrons it's kind of impossible to not build a Necron army. People are trying to argue that it should be possible to build a Tau army with no actual Tau in it, and that doesn't really make sense or even seem reasonable.

Errm - Grey Knights 'dex, Sid? As far as I'm aware, it is possible to build a Grey Knights army without using any Grey Knights.

I don't think the idea of a Tau Empire army without any actual Tau in it is such a bad idea.

chaos0xomega wrote:CpatTom, I again direct you to the fact that it is Codex: TAU empire. Also, every piece of material from GW and FW have indicated that even the Tau's predominantly non-Tau military formations, such as Auxiliary cadre's etc. are led by Tau officers.

That is not true on many levels.
1.) Anghkor Prok became a general of the tau army after fighting alongside tau troops for years. The war where tau and Kroot first met featured both races fighting side by side with no Tau general leading the kroot.
2.) While most background focusses on Tau armies under the leadership of a tau general, I have never heard of Tau officers in a non-tau unit, it's not even legal in games. And Kroot mercenaries obviously fight without any tau participation. Demiurg are an independent race as well only allied to the Tau Empire. Most human armies on planets joining the tau Empire won't see any changes in organisation or equipment.
3.) ghost21 said, he plans to play a Demiurg only army. His rumours suggest that it will be possible to play Kroot-only and Demiurg-only armies without the participation of tau officers. Given the background this makes sense.

Its not Codex: Tau
Its Codex: Tau Empire

If it was Codex Tau it wouldn't make any sense if you could make a force of non Tau's, but as it is Codex Tau Empire, as in the Empire and all the elements that comprise that Empire it makes a great deal of sense that there would be forces organized by members of the Empire not run by the Tau.

Just because they call it the Tau Empire doesn't mean actual Tau have to be involved. At points throughout history the British had functioning countries under there rule that, had minimal British ruler ship. (Granted this is just my view from my oh so "terrible" American education.)

All I'm going to say is that there is a reason why the current book required you to field a minimum of a Tau HQ and a Tau troops choice, and I hope similar restrictions remain. I also don't trust ghost in the slightest, he can stick his "demiurg-only" army where the sun don't shine.

An official all Kroot force? I hope so!

Would be a bit expensive with so many models but that would be awesome.

I hope they put rules in for other Kroot units even if they don't release the models (some variations are just too easy to convert), like Vultures and the Hunters.

Dysartes wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:But with Codex: Necrons it's kind of impossible to not build a Necron army. People are trying to argue that it should be possible to build a Tau army with no actual Tau in it, and that doesn't really make sense or even seem reasonable.

Errm - Grey Knights 'dex, Sid? As far as I'm aware, it is possible to build a Grey Knights army without using any Grey Knights.

Still requires a Daemon Hunting Inquisitor, much like the previous Daemon Hunter Codex.

OT I have always like the Tau, but found that FW need to be supported by everything else. If they can make it more balanced (maybe allow FW to have an Assault/heavy weapon and cheaper Transports) then the army would be awesome.

If there are more Xenos, I wouldn't be bothered.

CpatTom wrote:Its not Codex: Tau
Its Codex: Tau Empire

If it was Codex Tau it wouldn't make any sense if you could make a force of non Tau's, but as it is Codex Tau Empire, as in the Empire and all the elements that comprise that Empire it makes a great deal of sense that there would be forces organized by members of the Empire not run by the Tau.

Just because they call it the Tau Empire doesn't mean actual Tau have to be involved. At points throughout history the British had functioning countries under there rule that, had minimal British ruler ship. (Granted this is just my view from my oh so "terrible" American education.)

All I have to say is read the codex. Fluff could always change on a whim, we know that, but judging purely on current fluff, a "force organized by non-Tau" doesn't make much sense, and it's not hard to see why.

You can't compare the Tau to the British (not just because one exists only in fantasy) because the Tau have billions and billions to their number, the Tau race stretches across several worlds and every world in their empire likely does have a Tau presence on it to ensure that the will of the ethereals is being carried out and that all their subsumed races are operating in the Tau way, for the Greater Good (because the Tau not only have the manpower but they probably also give more of a gak than the British in ensuring their Empire was run the way it "should" be*). If I recall correctly, the Fire Caste is also very traditional and purist, and they don't really prefer using alien auxiliaries if they can help it, they mostly only do so because the ethereals will it and have incorporated auxiliary forces into the military themselves. If the Fire Caste had their way Tau armies would probably all be purely Tau. But I might be wrong about that.

The only race that really operates independently is the Kroot, and they only get away with that because they do it outside of the watchful eye of their Tau overseers. The Tau probably wouldn't be too happy if they learned the Kroot were acting as mercenaries for the other races against their back, and doing it purely for their own gain (their continued evolution and survival by consuming the dead of other races, a practice the Tau don't condone and are fighting hard to change even though it would lead to an evolutionary dead end and the stagnation of the Kroot race).


*In case anyone was wondering this was meant more as a joke than anything, I'm not exactly a history buff so I couldn't tell you.

Surely if GW do decide to allow an all 'non-Tau' force to be selected, then you just decide not to select one!

I like the kroot, vespids and the idea of new 'alien' units but i'll still select my battlesuit and FW units 90% of the time!

alphaomega wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:But with Codex: Necrons it's kind of impossible to not build a Necron army. People are trying to argue that it should be possible to build a Tau army with no actual Tau in it, and that doesn't really make sense or even seem reasonable.

Errm - Grey Knights 'dex, Sid? As far as I'm aware, it is possible to build a Grey Knights army without using any Grey Knights.

Still requires a Daemon Hunting Inquisitor, much like the previous Daemon Hunter Codex.

Not the argument that was put forward, alphaomega, which seems to be that because the codex is Tau Empire, that an army chosen from it must feature Tau.

I was pointing out that an army from the Grey Knight book doesn't require you to take any Grey Knights...

There's no rule of the game that X army must feature Y unit. Personally I wouldn't play an all Kroot army but a lot of people would if the list was reasonable. There was a Kroot Mercenary army list in Chapter Approved years ago and it has always had followers.

It would be nice to see a Xenian codex with a variety of possible lists, rather than half a dozen SM codexes with similar and only slightly different lists.

Kilkrazy wrote:There's no rule of the game that X army must feature Y unit. Personally I wouldn't play an all Kroot army but a lot of people would if the list was reasonable. There was a Kroot Mercenary army list in Chapter Approved years ago and it has always had followers.

I always thought the followers were due to the Kroot-in-a-fez, myself...

The Tau Empire is large and Tau are not present on every planet. Fights by human PDFs are totally thinkable, also by other alien races within the Tau Empire. Kroot are known to fight independently. Demiurg are not even part of the Empire but allies, so used to fight for themselves as well (of course Demiurg would never accept a Tau officer in their army).

chaos0xomega wrote:All I'm going to say is that there is a reason why the current book required you to field a minimum of a Tau HQ and a Tau troops choice, and I hope similar restrictions remain.

I don't get this at all. When I look at an upcoming army list, I hope that it allows me to field the kind of army that I want to play and I hope that it is balanced. To hope that the army list forbids armies that you personally aren't interested in seems... odd.

Dysartes wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:There's no rule of the game that X army must feature Y unit. Personally I wouldn't play an all Kroot army but a lot of people would if the list was reasonable. There was a Kroot Mercenary army list in Chapter Approved years ago and it has always had followers.

I always thought the followers were due to the Kroot-in-a-fez, myself...

JOHIRA wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:All I'm going to say is that there is a reason why the current book required you to field a minimum of a Tau HQ and a Tau troops choice, and I hope similar restrictions remain.

I don't get this at all. When I look at an upcoming army list, I hope that it allows me to field the kind of army that I want to play and I hope that it is balanced. To hope that the army list forbids armies that you personally aren't interested in seems... odd.

I've been playing Tau since release, call me a purist, but I want to play Tau and I want to see others play Tau. I don't want them to become a sidelined item in their own codex.

Dysartes wrote:

alphaomega wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:But with Codex: Necrons it's kind of impossible to not build a Necron army. People are trying to argue that it should be possible to build a Tau army with no actual Tau in it, and that doesn't really make sense or even seem reasonable.

Errm - Grey Knights 'dex, Sid? As far as I'm aware, it is possible to build a Grey Knights army without using any Grey Knights.

Still requires a Daemon Hunting Inquisitor, much like the previous Daemon Hunter Codex.

Not the argument that was put forward, alphaomega, which seems to be that because the codex is Tau Empire, that an army chosen from it must feature Tau.

I was pointing out that an army from the Grey Knight book doesn't require you to take any Grey Knights...

Bah humbug.

I wouldn't worry that will happen.

Plenty of people like me have 3,000+ points of Tau and we're only waiting for a decent codex to get them out again. (Actually mine are in storage in Japan but the principle stands.)

It'd be nice if their was enough versatility in the Tau Empire codex for it to be a great 'Alien Civilisation no. 2456' counts as codex.

I hope the fire warrior restriction goes, I always wanted to build a Tau army without the fire warriors... all suit army please, GW.

Plastic Vespid would make me a very happy man.

CpatTom wrote:Its not Codex: Tau
Its Codex: Tau Empire

If it was Codex Tau it wouldn't make any sense if you could make a force of non Tau's, but as it is Codex Tau Empire, as in the Empire and all the elements that comprise that Empire it makes a great deal of sense that there would be forces organized by members of the Empire not run by the Tau.

Just because they call it the Tau Empire doesn't mean actual Tau have to be involved. At points throughout history the British had functioning countries under there rule that, had minimal British ruler ship. (Granted this is just my view from my oh so "terrible" American education.)

Well, I think the Etherials would be alright with it as long as the Tea,Sugar and Tobacco arrived on time and wasn't intercepted by 'privateers'

I see no problem with a Tau Empire codex having a option to play with only the allied races of the Tau. It could make for some interesting campaigns. I just hope that the Tau don't suddenly get warp capable ships, are all over the Galaxy, 'insert other mcguffin to make them l3370' as demanded by 'The Plot,tm'. I hope they do evolve the fluff and introduce more and varied units in the codex. I would love to see GW take the FW sculpts for the Battlesuits and use it. And for the love of god please fix the ankle joints on the suits.

Other then that bring on the 'little blue buggers'. It might make me get back into 40k again. Especially if 6th ed is any good.

chaos0xomega wrote:I've been playing Tau since release, call me a purist, but I want to play Tau and I want to see others play Tau. I don't want them to become a sidelined item in their own codex.

This is exactly what bothers me. I get the feeling that there are a lot of people in here (who probably don't even play Tau) that are calling for them to be pushed off to the side or maybe even phased out of their own codex, so something else like Kroot can take over. That's not fair to people like me and chaos0xomega who actually like Tau units, especially when Tau are supposed to be the main focus of the codex and Kroot are more like hired mercenaries that aren't part of the main army in the first place.

What it comes down to is you're trying to take the "Tau" out of "Tau Empire". And I know what's going to happen, CpatTom's going to come back and say the exact same thing he said twice already: "It's Codex: Tau EMPIRE, not Codex: Tau!", arguing in circles again because then all I have to do is put emphasis on "Tau" and my argument will be just as valid...that is, if you ignore the fact that Codex: Tau did exist at one point, and that there's more of a precedent for Tau-dominant armies than what he's asking for, which as far as I know isn't really supported by codex fluff. Or at least I've never read anything in either book (I own both codices, most of the fluff is exactly the same) about entire armies of Kroot without any Tau leadership guiding them at all, in fact the codex says the opposite: in most instances the Kroot and Vespid are mentioned as operating in tandem with the Fire caste, the stealthy Kroot being used to support pathfinder teams, acting as the lure in a Kauyon maneuver (which the codex mentions is only a recent thing and that most Tau prefer the honor of being the lure to go to bonded fire warriors instead), or helping to maintain a battle line so the Tau can fight on a larger scale, or the Vespid being support for crisis teams in particular. The point is the average Tau cadre mostly consists of Tau warriors with units like Kroot or Vespid being used as support only, not the core.

Kroothawk wrote:1.) Anghkor Prok became a general of the tau army after fighting alongside tau troops for years. The war where tau and Kroot first met featured both races fighting side by side with no Tau general leading the kroot.

First of all, that was one special character. I would argue that he's an exception and not the rule, because the only mention of Kroot fighting independently in the codex is as mercenaries for other races behind the Tau's back (Anghor Prok isn't even in the codex and didn't exactly have a rich backstory [more like a paragraph long] IIRC so I can't comment on him too much). Also, you're talking about before the Kroot were integrated into the Empire, so of course they're not going to have Tau leaders at that point.

Kroothawk wrote:2.) While most background focusses on Tau armies under the leadership of a tau general, I have never heard of Tau officers in a non-tau unit, it's not even legal in games. And Kroot mercenaries obviously fight without any tau participation. Demiurg are an independent race as well only allied to the Tau Empire. Most human armies on planets joining the tau Empire won't see any changes in organisation or equipment.

I don't think I need to point out the fallacy of using what's "legal in the game" during a fluff argument. Are we going to start arguing about statlines next? "Marines should have more than one wound!"

And like I said, Kroot mercenaries operate outside of the Tau's watchful eye, as doing what they do goes against the idea of the Greater Good. So I'd argue that being able to make a mercenary force with Codex: Tau Empire makes even less sense if that's your justification for it.

As for Demiurg and human auxiliaries: so? You can argue about the Demiurg and humans all you want (neither of which have game rules, btw if you're going to use that as an argument then you need to be consistent, don't bring up game rules when it supports your argument and then leave it out when it doesn't), but Vespid and Kroot (non-mercs) aren't independent and mostly support Tau units, not fighting as full Kroot or Vespid armies.

Kroothawk wrote:3.) ghost21 said, he plans to play a Demiurg only army. His rumours suggest that it will be possible to play Kroot-only and Demiurg-only armies without the participation of tau officers. Given the background this makes sense.

Who the hell is ghost21 and why should I care what he does? If that's what GW ends up doing then fine, whatever. I just won't update my Tau army or buy the new rules because I got into it for the Tau units and vehicles, not so I could field a Kroot army, and I don't like the idea of my army being pushed off to the side or ignored in their own fething codex. But I wouldn't claim that this "makes sense" because according to the current background it kinda doesn't...unless the Tau find out that the Kroot are operating as mercs for other races and not following the philosophy of the Greater Good, and were totally okay with that for some reason, in the new codex. Things could change, I'm aware of that, but we can't really argue about fluff we haven't seen yet, can we?

Or I dunno, I guess ghost21 could. Good for him.

Kilkrazy wrote:I wouldn't worry that will happen.

I would. Have you seen the kind of hate Tau get in the 40k community? There are quite a few people out there who would be happy if Tau were "killed off", because they aren't "grimdark" enough, I guess. I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case here but people were just afraid to come out and say it.

It might have also been the "Mary Sue" fluff, but considering how bad each codex has gotten lately, Tau fluff is actually not that bad in comparison so I'm not really going to acknowledge that as an argument anymore.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I don't think the idea of a Tau Empire army without any actual Tau in it is such a bad idea.

Because you're a hater. lol

No, you're probably just bitter because of what GW did to Daemonhunters and now you're out to feth up Tau for me!



Oh, another thing:

Kroothawk wrote:The Tau Empire is large and Tau are not present on every planet.

Can we get a codex quote on that one, please? Because now that I think about it I don't remember the codex saying whether or not the Tau did have a presence on every world in their Empire. There's nothing to back up what you said, so really either one of us could be right.

Sidstyler, I think you may be over-reacting just a teensy bit here - no-one is saying that Codex: Tau EMPIRE shouldn't have any Tau in it. That would be plainly nonsensical, in the same way that producing Codex: Grey Knights without putting any Grey Knights in it would have been.

What some posters are saying is that they are interested by, or at least like, the idea that it would be possible to build an army focussing on the auxiliary aspects of the Tau if they so wished.

The debate may be continuing at cross-purposes here, but I am failing to see why presenting that option - especially after invalidating the Kroot-in-a-fez army list - is causing you to have such a visceral reaction.

I'll be honest - while I did try to run a Codex: Tau army back in the day, they've never really felt to me like they fit the setting properly. However, I'd say the same about the Necrons (especially when they had the C'Tan running around). In neither case, though, would I be particularly happy if a random splinter fleet of Tyranids came up through the galactic plane and devoured their Homeworlds...

Well, all Codices now get a bunch of special characters of all fractions in the book. Would be difficult to add "can't be used as an HQ" to all non-Tau HQ selections. Some people are not satisfied with getting all the options they want, they also want that noone else gets his options

I fully support SM codexes without any SMs in them.

They can be the new thing!. Codex: Invisable marines!

Kroothawk wrote:Well, all Codices now get a bunch of special characters of all fractions in the book. Would be difficult to add "can't be used as an HQ" to all non-Tau HQ selections. Some people are not satisfied with getting all the options they want, they also want that noone else gets his options

Well in that case I second Kilkrazy, I want a Space Marine codex that makes it possible to build a Space Marine army with no Space Marines in it. And if I don't get that then I'm going to cry foul and accuse Space Marine players and GW of denying me the options I want.

Personally though, I don't think GW is going to focus more on the alien auxiliaries than they have now. I mean look, this is the same company that couldn't figure out how to put both Chaos Space Marines and Daemons in the same book (despite the fact that it's actually kinda simple since the Chaos Space Marines summon daemons, and there were rules for that in the last book even), so what makes you think they're going to put any more effort into the Tau codex (one of the more unpopular races, apparently) and make it possible to field not only a traditional Tau army, but a purist Tau army, a Kroot mercenary faction, and an all-Demiurg army, and make them all balanced/competitive? Sounds like wishlisting to me, especially since you'd have more options in each FOC slot than a Space Marine codex.

I dunno though, I don't pretend to know what GW is planning. Maybe ghost21 is right and there will be options for Kroot and Demiurg armies, maybe the fluff will change dramatically and Tau won't be anything like they are today (very likely if Mat Ward is writing the codex). I'm not saying I don't want anyone to get what they want, but I'm going to be pretty disappointed personally if all the new kits we get are auxiliaries and Tau don't actually get any new suits or vehicles because GW had to focus too much on making sure the Kroot and Demiurg players could make legal armies (because like I said, you're going to need to cover all the bases: HQ, elite, heavy support, etc.).

Just for the record, I don't hate Kroot or Vespid (well I do hate Vespid but that's only because they're a festering pile of gak in-game), I just like the look of a mostly Tau army with a couple alien auxiliaries for support. I've never really been that interested in fielding nothing but Tau or Kroot or whatever, like you guys I also like the Empire part of Tau Empire, but I don't forget the word that comes before it.

Personally I don't think all kroot and all demiurg armies will be "competitive" but so what?
If you want a competitive army you should have to use every thing in the codex. There is a reason why tau incloued those aliens in the first place B|.

But for those players who care more about style and story of their army and just like that particular alien race, why not have some all alien setups?
Nobody forces you to use on or the other.

It all comes back to the story of the chapter/sept/ craftworld for me. I'm a bit of a background lover. You know this when you want to write up storys to go with every battle that your guys fight.

Are Tau unpopular? During 4th edition when they were fresh, they apparently comprised nearly 10% of models sold for 40K.

If they are unpopular now, it is surely because they are the weakest army in the game, haven't had any new models for five years, and have dismal amounts of fluff.

Kilkrazy wrote:... and have dismal amounts of fluff.

OTOH, what they do have is very strong, at least in terms of being distinct. I think this is one of the reasons Tau have such a loyal fanbase. The dex as rumored looks like a strong follow up to the direction of Tau Empire. All-member-race armies (regardless of competitiveness) would be icing on the cake. And yet consider the Necron retco (Retcron?).

Sidstyler wrote:
You can't compare the Tau to the British (not just because one exists only in fantasy) because the Tau have billions and billions to their number, the Tau race stretches across several worlds and every world in their empire likely does have a Tau presence on it to ensure that the will of the ethereals is being carried out and that all their subsumed races are operating in the Tau way, for the Greater Good (because the Tau not only have the manpower but they probably also give more of a gak than the British in ensuring their Empire was run the way it "should" be*). If I recall correctly, the Fire Caste is also very traditional and purist, and they don't really prefer using alien auxiliaries if they can help it, they mostly only do so because the ethereals will it and have incorporated auxiliary forces into the military themselves. If the Fire Caste had their way Tau armies would probably all be purely Tau. But I might be wrong about that.

The only race that really operates independently is the Kroot, and they only get away with that because they do it outside of the watchful eye of their Tau overseers. The Tau probably wouldn't be too happy if they learned the Kroot were acting as mercenaries for the other races against their back, and doing it purely for their own gain (their continued evolution and survival by consuming the dead of other races, a practice the Tau don't condone and are fighting hard to change even though it would lead to an evolutionary dead end and the stagnation of the Kroot race).


*In case anyone was wondering this was meant more as a joke than anything, I'm not exactly a history buff so I couldn't tell you.

More like the mid-late Roman Empire (without the East/West bit). Local governors that leave the non-Roman populous pretty much alone as long as they mind their p's and q's. Auxilliary forces comprised of units from member-states with a Roman core at the center and administration.

Sorry to be off-topic all.

The Tau have a just Tau Faction: Farsight. It exists, and I expect it to expand in the next dex. I don't see how they could not expand it somehow.

I'm focusing on the Empire aspect because that's really what makes the Tau distinct. The Fact that you have insect(stupid vespids) and bird and fish people all fighting together is what sets them apart from CODEX:"Race/Sub Race". A faction defined by ideals and not by biological mishap.

From a purely Fluff perspective there would have to be points where Tau leadership could be incapacitated, and the best leadership option would be a Kroot or Vespid (okay, maybe not a vespid) or a Demiuirg, or whatever these lil rock people will be called.

While the fluff doesn't state the Kroot fighting on their own as anything besides Mercs, it doesn't really delve into the background that much either (The Kroot dex thingy has a great helping of little tidbits of Kroot info, did you know Eldar Kroot get psychic powers? Now you know).

I'm not saying the Tau shouldn't come first and foremost, as a Tau player I would find that pretty disappointing if it did happen. Excluding other HQ's just because they aren't Tau seems like a rather extreme measure to allow the focus to stay completely and totally on the Tau, which is not what the Tau Empire as a whole is all about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

agnosto wrote:More like the mid-late Roman Empire (without the East/West bit). Local governors that leave the non-Roman populous pretty much alone as long as they mind their p's and q's. Auxilliary forces comprised of units from member-states with a Roman core at the center and administration.

For the Greater Good of Rome?

I heard someone say something anout tarelian dog soldiers, could that possibly be true, if so, feth YEAH!

Sidstyler wrote:Well in that case I second Kilkrazy, I want a Space Marine codex that makes it possible to build a Space Marine army with no Space Marines in it. And if I don't get that then I'm going to cry foul and accuse Space Marine players and GW of denying me the options I want.

You are lucky. The only SM Codex that featured non-SM before, now has an option for making a non-SM list: Codex Grey Knights.
BTW, even with the first Codex, the author made a Kroot only WD list.

Sidstyler wrote:I dunno though, I don't pretend to know what GW is planning. Maybe ghost21 is right and there will be options for Kroot and Demiurg armies, maybe the fluff will change dramatically and Tau won't be anything like they are today (very likely if Mat Ward is writing the codex). I'm not saying I don't want anyone to get what they want, but I'm going to be pretty disappointed personally if all the new kits we get are auxiliaries and Tau don't actually get any new suits or vehicles because GW had to focus too much on making sure the Kroot and Demiurg players could make legal armies (because like I said, you're going to need to cover all the bases: HQ, elite, heavy support, etc.).

Just for the record, I don't hate Kroot or Vespid (well I do hate Vespid but that's only because they're a festering pile of gak in-game), I just like the look of a mostly Tau army with a couple alien auxiliaries for support. I've never really been that interested in fielding nothing but Tau or Kroot or whatever, like you guys I also like the Empire part of Tau Empire, but I don't forget the word that comes before it.

Almost all rumours currently come from ghost21. He suggests that non-Tau lists are possible. He also says that beside new Xenos, we will see 4 new tau units. So what's the problem? Even the fluff supports the addition of new races to the Tau Empire.

BTW thanks for not hating Kroot

We're not hating non-Tau, we're hating the thought that the Tau book will become a mess filled with non-Tau options everywhere, and people are going to be fielding armies without a single blueie in it, sidelining the titular force IN THEIR OWN CODEX. Lets not joke around here, Tau are on thin ice, a lot of people would be glad to see them gone, this will be a small step in that direction.

Kroothawk wrote:BTW thanks for not hating Kroot

Because the only thing that's worse than messing with the inquisition is beeing hunted by the kroot.
Man, they even eat you allive and sh*t.. ^^

chaos0xomega wrote: Lets not joke around here, Tau are on thin ice, a lot of people would be glad to see them gone.

Who exactly?

I like my Tau alot, but the problem with them currently is that they have very few worthwhile units (Crisis Suits, Broadsides, Hammerheads, Fire Warriors), so having alot more variety wouldn't bother me in the slightest. Most players want to field armies that either have a theme or are unique to them personally, so a heavy Kroot or Vespid army isn't unthinkable.

As a matter of fact it makes more sense fluff-wise. Kroot operate independently from Cadres (take the Taros Campaign for example) where the Shapers lead their packs but fight for the Tau. It also fits with the Empire's theme of unification under one goal or idea.

Besides, putting the Kroot Merc Army from chapter approved into the Tau Codex would be awsome.

All the Tau units are kind of samey. I guess that's fine by SM standards where it's all power armor all the time. I like a little variety in an expanding, assimilating xeno empire.

Sidstyler wrote: People are trying to argue that it should be possible to build a Tau army with no actual Tau in it, and that doesn't really make sense or even seem reasonable.

Why not? It was certainly possible to fight the British Empire without seeing a single Brit on the field not too many decades back. Same with the Romans, the Chinese, the Mongols... It's not as if Empires in general feel risking one of their own is necessary in every little backwoods dust up. Even if the Tau have administrators on every planet, I doubt they would come roaring out of their ivory towers to face the Chaos legions mano-a-mano unless they really felt they were needed there. Nor would they be at every fight across the planet.

It's very unlikely that GW could produce enough new models to provide Kroot, Vespids and Demiurg with enough models in all the different Force Chart slots to make a legal and viable army.

Thus the codex will hopefully be a solid Tau army with a good variety of alien auxiliary units.

chaos0xomega wrote:We're not hating non-Tau, we're hating the thought that the Tau book will become a mess filled with non-Tau options everywhere, and people are going to be fielding armies without a single blueie in it, sidelining the titular force IN THEIR OWN CODEX. Lets not joke around here, Tau are on thin ice, a lot of people would be glad to see them gone, this will be a small step in that direction.

Yeah, and the fact that other people make army lists that aren't thematically what you think they should be affects you... how?

Let's be reasonable. There is no massive conspiracy to get Tau removed from the game. Having the option of non-Tau units will not affect the prominence of Tau in the meta-game. Only one factor will affect that, and that is if the xenos units are better mechanic-wise than Tau units. And judging by the last to codicies, that doesn't seem likely.

JOHIRA wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:We're not hating non-Tau, we're hating the thought that the Tau book will become a mess filled with non-Tau options everywhere, and people are going to be fielding armies without a single blueie in it, sidelining the titular force IN THEIR OWN CODEX. Lets not joke around here, Tau are on thin ice, a lot of people would be glad to see them gone, this will be a small step in that direction.

Yeah, and the fact that other people make army lists that aren't thematically what you think they should be affects you... how?

Let's be reasonable. There is no massive conspiracy to get Tau removed from the game. Having the option of non-Tau units will not affect the prominence of Tau in the meta-game. Only one factor will affect that, and that is if the xenos units are better mechanic-wise than Tau units. And judging by the last to codicies, that doesn't seem likely.

There are so many pages in the average codex and only so many plastic kits that will be released for units in it... if those resources are devoted more significantly to non-Tau, the variety in actual Tau units will not be as much. While I personally don't mind a bit of variety, a general clamor for tons of non-Tau in the Tau codex does affect people who won't be using them. On the miniscule chance that GW listens to anonymous fan feedback, blue-bloods need to stick up for themselves just as much as you smelly feather heads! If someone has a right to clamor for X, then others have a right to clamor against too much X.

warboss wrote:

JOHIRA wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:We're not hating non-Tau, we're hating the thought that the Tau book will become a mess filled with non-Tau options everywhere, and people are going to be fielding armies without a single blueie in it, sidelining the titular force IN THEIR OWN CODEX. Lets not joke around here, Tau are on thin ice, a lot of people would be glad to see them gone, this will be a small step in that direction.

Yeah, and the fact that other people make army lists that aren't thematically what you think they should be affects you... how?

Let's be reasonable. There is no massive conspiracy to get Tau removed from the game. Having the option of non-Tau units will not affect the prominence of Tau in the meta-game. Only one factor will affect that, and that is if the xenos units are better mechanic-wise than Tau units. And judging by the last to codicies, that doesn't seem likely.

There are so many pages in the average codex and only so many plastic kits that will be released for units in it... if those resources are devoted more significantly to non-Tau, the variety in actual Tau units will not be as much. While I personally don't mind a bit of variety, a general clamor for tons of non-Tau in the Tau codex does affect people who won't be using them. On the miniscule chance that GW listens to anonymous fan feedback, blue-bloods need to stick up for themselves just as much as you smelly feather heads! If someone has a right to clamor for X, then others have a right to clamor against too much X.

It's all for the Greater Good, right? As long as XV8s and 88s are good, are the Tau really losing that much ground? Fire Warriors are terrible, so any Tau troops that are capable of something are an addition to Tau forces that once wasn't. Thats a plus right? RIGHT!

Vespid suck, and no one likes them, so they can go meet a windshield. (This statement hasn't been evaluated by reasonable thought)

BIRD AND FISH PEOPLE UNITE!

Hey, look, I love my vespids, and I'm about to drop 180 dollars to buy 120 kroot minis, but the point of the matter is... its a TAU codex, and the TAU should be a staple feature of EVERY army.

chaos0xomega wrote:Hey, look, I love my vespids, and I'm about to drop 180 dollars to buy 120 kroot minis, but the point of the matter is... its a TAU codex, and the TAU should be a staple feature of EVERY army.

Agreed. I hope we get an update that takes things the Dark Eldar route and by that I mean a few established "branches" with the ability to have variation within each branch. I love how Dark Eldar have the option of having a Kabal, Wych force, or an entirely different group like an Incubi or twisted Haemonculi force with a small envoy of Kabalite Warriors of Wyches as representation of the core Dark Eldar.

I have 100 Kroots and 50 hounds. I whole heatedly support non-Tau variation much like Coteaz unlocks all-henchmen army.

I noticed rumors of a new WFB monster-sized model for Kroot. For the greater good, please let it be Greater Knarloc with monstrous creature rule and stats! Current rules doesn't do the model justice.

I'm more in line with the view that is it Codex: Tau Empire, as such so long as members of that empire are fielded it's fine. What I'd like to see is the option to have non-Tau member of the empire have the option to take some of Tau's tech. In short you could run an all kroot army, but you'd still see the touch of the Tau on them.

Eldar I think are coming first

Codex: Greater Good

Some would say: Codex Lesser Evil

Codex: Communist.



That one was just for you Kroot!

What Tau would really need is a Gigacrisis Suit that is made out of 5 different coloured regular crisis suits.

What I, on the other hand, really need is an idea on dimensions for the new vehicles coming in the codex, should there be any. I am repurposing a bunch of old mini's for a tau army (just beacuse I want to repaint all the little sob's with my airbrush I guess) and will be scratch building the vehicles I think.

Codex: Tau Confederacy?

chaos0xomega wrote:
I've been playing Tau since release, call me a purist, but I want to play Tau and

I want to see others play Tau.

I don't want them to become a sidelined item in their own codex.

I'm having a hard time not getting mad about this. You have absolutely no business saying what other people should be doing with their armies.

He means Bluies, not birdmen or insects, as in he wants Tau to be in all Tau empire armies. Nothing wrong with that train of thought, I just prefer to that Birdmen could take a larger role on the battlefield, for the Greater Good, of course. (I gyess insects could too, if you're really into that sorta thing, haha)

Having non-rules-related expectations of how others should build their armies is pretty silly.

I am cool with other people playing all Tau armies, playing all Auxiliary armies or playing mixed Tau and Auxiliary armies.

Just give me a codex that makes all of the above realistically competitive.

Why do people call the tau fishmen?

Space Crusader wrote:Why do people call the tau fishmen?

I dunno, why?

Or, on the off change you weren't setting up a joke, because they ride around in their Devilfish APC.

They are seahorses nyuk nyuk nyuk
Devilfish, orca, manta, hammerhead, piranha, (starting to see the pattern here?)

They're also blue and have no ears or noses.

I think the Tau Racial Purity Brigade could stand to take a breather. Tau should generally be the focus of the codex, but if there's an option to take an all-allies army with no Tau, that doesn't exactly hurt the game or the codex. Grey Knights are a fine codex with or without armies of henchmen.

Live and let live, y'all.

CpatTom wrote:He means Bluies, not birdmen or insects, as in he wants Tau to be in all Tau empire armies. Nothing wrong with that train of thought,

Yeah, there kinda is. It's yet another manifestation of the tendency of people in this hobby to demand everyone else have fun in the exact same way. Like people who get irate that other people sculpt boobies on their space marines or that a game they don't play is popular.

We nerds sure do find strange things to get worked up about. What we've basically got here is people calling for a rules-based racial quota system so the blue toy soldiers don't lose their jobs to the green toy soldiers, the other blue toy soldiers, or the short toy soldiers. It's srs bzns, apparently.

Hell, gimme all the Aux, all the Tau, alot of options and builds and wargear, I would love a huge 100+ page count Codex that allowed total Aux race builds without a single Blue dude, and Tau builds that needed no Aux races to make it competitive.

More stuff the better, and maybe it will inspire a Forge World spike in designs.

Just hoping its a cohesive update.

bit ironic that some are clamouring for more variety, some are clamouring for less; no wonder GW doesn't listen to us more.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Hell, gimme all the Aux, all the Tau, alot of options and builds and wargear, I would love a huge 100+ page count Codex that allowed total Aux race builds without a single Blue dude, and Tau builds that needed no Aux races to make it competitive.

More stuff the better, and maybe it will inspire a Forge World spike in designs.

Just hoping its a cohesive update.

This echoes my sentiments exactly. I want a lot more variety than we currently have and I especially dislike that I have to take Kroot just to be barely competitive.

Yes. Codex: Tau Empire has always been about the Tau Empire. Nevermind that silly Farsight fellow.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Codex: Communist.
That one was just for you Kroot!

Thanks, H.M.B.C.

On Demiurg looking like this fan-art:

ghost21 wrote: urm yes close....

I'm going to bring this thread up when the next Tau dex really comes out (in 2036) and none of this aux stuff is in it.

But they have hooves!

chaos0xomega wrote:
I've been playing Tau since release, call me a purist, but I want to play Tau and

I want to see others play Tau.

I don't want them to become a sidelined item in their own codex.

You shall henceforth be referred to as Tau Nazi.

Do you collect royalties from GW for your part in creating the Tau?
No?
Then stop trying to dictate how other people want to play their Tau Empire armies.

I really hope the tarelian dog soldiers are actually in the game. They'd be awesome to bring to the table.

And GW already made models of them ...

Kroothawk wrote:On Demiurg looking like this fan-art:

ghost21 wrote: urm yes close....

Suprisingly close to Mantic's space dwarves.

This topic took weird turn at one point... must be one of the strangest rumor topics I have had the privilege of reading.

Breotan wrote:Suprisingly close to Mantic's space dwarves.

And people thought Necrons were disappointing. But seriously, please God no.

I reckon Tarellian Dog Soldiers would be so awesome.

Kilkrazy wrote:I reckon Tarellian Dog Soldiers would be so awesome.

Be careful, KK. We just saw a major intrusion of WHFB into 40k. The only image I've ever seen of a Tarellian makes me think Saurus in 40k after last months TK ... er, Necrons release.

CpatTom wrote:They are seahorses nyuk nyuk nyuk
Devilfish, orca, manta, hammerhead, piranha, (starting to see the pattern here?)

Those are imperial designations, not Tau designations

You shall henceforth be referred to as Tau Nazi.

Do you collect royalties from GW for your part in creating the Tau?
No?
Then stop trying to dictate how other people want to play their Tau Empire armies.

Go take a long walk off a short pier, troll. I have every right to demand that the army that I started the game with continue to be supported properly, instead of being squatted out of their own book in favor of birdmen, insect people, and space dwarves. I don't need to collect royalties from GW to be a stakeholder, I've invested thousands of dollars and countless hours of my time into the hobby, especially in regards to my Tau.

Here's hoping to a playable all-kroot.
That's what would get me real interested.

Here's to playable all-Tau.
That's what would keep my interest.

chaos0xomega wrote:

CpatTom wrote:They are seahorses nyuk nyuk nyuk
Devilfish, orca, manta, hammerhead, piranha, (starting to see the pattern here?)

Those are imperial designations, not Tau designations

You shall henceforth be referred to as Tau Nazi.

Do you collect royalties from GW for your part in creating the Tau?
No?
Then stop trying to dictate how other people want to play their Tau Empire armies.

Go take a long walk off a short pier, troll. I have every right to demand that the army that I started the game with continue to be supported properly, instead of being squatted out of their own book in favor of birdmen, insect people, and space dwarves. I don't need to collect royalties from GW to be a stakeholder, I've invested thousands of dollars and countless hours of my time into the hobby, especially in regards to my Tau.

He's not a troll, he's merely stating that if they make non tau, tau empire lists viable then the fluff nazis like yourself can still play with tau and those that don't want to, don't have to. Those that want to force that are simply being fluff nazi's. *Tosses Godwin grenade*

chaos0xomega wrote:

CpatTom wrote:They are seahorses nyuk nyuk nyuk
Devilfish, orca, manta, hammerhead, piranha, (starting to see the pattern here?)

Those are imperial designations, not Tau designations

I've always thought of calling Tau "fish" as Imperial racism (even when it's used "out-of-universe," and I've never seen it used "in-universe").

I have every right to demand ...

You have as much "right" to demand anything from GW as anyone else, which is to say "none."

Stop calling each other trolls and Nazis.

manchu wrote:Be careful, KK. We just saw a major intrusion of WHFB into 40k. The only image I've ever seen of a Tarellian makes me think Saurus in 40k after last months TK ... er, Necrons release.

to a certain extent they will be sauruses in space, but here's an interesting piece:

Space saurus. Neat. Now I have something to do with my lizardmen.

That seems a bit redundant next to kroot, which are more interesting than being merely "lizardmen-in-space."

On the whole, Tau and their allies strike me as a rare breath of fresh air in 40k. If demiurg are brought in, I hope it's not Mantic-style (i.e., old GW style) dwarfs-in-space.

I don't know I think they could give the tarelians something unique, like make one more CC oriented (probably kroot) and tarelians more shooty, with high tech weapons), kroot would be the en mass light troops, tarelians would be more heavy oriented. Basically kroot are bird people and tarelians are aligator men.

Would be fanastic for their to be so many options and choices like the Necron Codex. I can't decide what I want to buy and build first. So many fun things in the codex. With the exception of flayed ones beautiful models. You can at least think of something to do with almost every unit in the codex. So I say that it is pretty win and hope the Tau codex is similar in fun and cool model win.

gendoikari87 wrote:they could give the tarelians something unique, like make one more CC oriented (probably kroot) and tarelians more shooty

Ask yourself where that leaves the Tau.

Manchu wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:they could give the tarelians something unique, like make one more CC oriented (probably kroot) and tarelians more shooty

Ask yourself where that leaves the Tau.

The Tau are the leaders, the Elites and have the best equipment of course.

Posts like that seem to justify some of the earlier bickering. Firewarriors are not likely to be replaced as the backbone of the troops slot.

Manchu wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:they could give the tarelians something unique, like make one more CC oriented (probably kroot) and tarelians more shooty

Ask yourself where that leaves the Tau.

Cheap shooty, markerlight use, drone attachments, Use of devilfish. There's a good bit.

1.) Tau are called fish, because they have hooves and live in a desert (the same people call them communists because they know as much about politics as about biology )
2.) According to fluff, the Tau Empire grows, incorporating more and more races, some of them fighting in the Tau army. So adding new Xeno units is totally fluffy.
3.) According to ghost21's rumours, Tau will get new Xeno units AS WELL AS new Tau units, creating more diversity for all kinds of armies.
4.) GW will not go the Mantic way with Demiurg and rerelease Dwarf Clan warriors with skirts, chainmail, swords and bionic eyes They are not that stupid!
5.) Tau have some of their technology from the Demiurg. So if Demiurg are part of the next Codex, Tau are not the only technology competent race in the Empire. Which is fluffy and fitting the description of the Tau Empire in BFG rules as a coalition of races exchanging knowledge and goods.

With that in mind, I would guess Demiurg were the most influential regarding the Earth Caste.

Also, are we sure Demiurg are Squats? Or do we actually know nothing about Demiurg? Because if Tau tech comes in part from the Demiurg then, barring something completely new, wouldn't that mean Tau tech is at least partly from the Dark Age of Technology?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Manchu wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:they could give the tarelians something unique, like make one more CC oriented (probably kroot) and tarelians more shooty

Ask yourself where that leaves the Tau.

Cheap shooty, markerlight use, drone attachments, Use of devilfish. There's a good bit.

So in that case let's ask where that leaves the Tarellians.

Elite expensive bulky shooty. Also, FW in troops, tarelians in elite.

Manchu wrote:Also, are we sure Demiurg are Squats?

We are sure that Demiurg are not Squats and not related to them:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Demiurg

grizgrin wrote:Space saurus. Neat. Now I have something to do with my lizardmen.

Lizardmen have been in space since Rogue Trader.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Slann

Thinking that Tau should be in Tau Empire armies has just as much merit as thinking that no Tau should be in Tau Empire armies.

Both are understandable trains of thought. I disagree with both of them; however, and am happy to get as many new Dog/Fish/Lizard/Fly/Bird/Alligator/Short/Rock-men (etc) and the different possibilities that go with them.

Also, fun thought exercise for the fluff, because I love my conspiracy theories (and really, in a universe where everything can be anything, I like to know 1 the most logical reason for something, and 2 the most awesome reason for something:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Demiurg#.TtWuJ7Ik6nA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge

Possible, Eldar trading with, Etheral Tau creators?

ghost21 wrote:

Rogue Star wrote:
So, from the sounds of this, it's now possible to have a "Tau Empire" army that doesn't actually include any Tau?

Demiurg for HQ, Kroot for Troops, Vespid in Fast Attack, etc.

as far as im aware yes, however , if you theme a force you get a troops and one other choice, not really much, however ill not be using any tau, just aliens

CpatTom wrote:
Also, fun thought exercise for the fluff, because I love my conspiracy theories (and really, in a universe where everything can be anything, I like to know 1 the most logical reason for something, and 2 the most awesome reason for something:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Demiurg#.TtWuJ7Ik6nA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge
Possible, Eldar trading with, Etheral Tau creators?

I dont think they would be that predictable, and thank god for that. The demiurg, if they decide to use them will be far less lofty then the demiurge concept would suggest or atleast thats my take on it. GW love epic concepts, but actually adding the creators of the universe as a unit choice, would be pushing it.

c'tan *cough*

But yea, hopefully they learned from that mistake.^^

The Avatar is the gold standard for doing it right. Never actually allow gods on the table, just their essence or their personified will or whatnot.

A little hint perhaps from Forgeworld concerning new rules for Tau.

Today I recieved the new Apoc book and while looking up the updated rules for the Tiger Shark I was surprised to see that they have given an option of adding on a Disruption Pod for 20pts.

Just to clarify, disruption pods mean that a shot from more than 12" away counts the vehicle as obscured.

However, all flyers count as moving flat out each turn which then counts as obscured.

Also a non-AA mounted gun reduces its range by 12" when targetting a flyer. (meaning pistols and such can't shoot them)

So the flyer already gains the Disruption Pod benefit for just being a flyer.

So unless they have included this as a way to affect AA mounted guns (AA guns don't lose 12" under normal conditions when shooting flyers).

But it does seem a little odd.

Anyway, thought i'd mention.

P.s. I'm at work so please don't ambush me if i've miss quoted any rules or info. I don't have all the books with me!

So either it's just an oversight or dis pods are changing somehow.

Actually AA guns would still count the flyer as obscured anyway, so my guess is that the Disruption Pod rules may be changing.

Or the next edition of the rules have different rules for flyers in general making dis pods viable?

Or less interestingly, some cheeky goff made a mistake

Or maybe it is just a mistake.

tarnish wrote:I dont think they would be that predictable, and thank god for that. The demiurg, if they decide to use them will be far less lofty then the demiurge concept would suggest or atleast thats my take on it. GW love epic concepts, but actually adding the creators of the universe as a unit choice, would be pushing it.

IPS wrote:c'tan *cough*But yea, hopefully they learned from that mistake.^^

Y'all are thinking way grander than me. I was just thinking the Demiurg created the Etherals. Haha, sorta Tau creators, instead of universe creators.

Truth to tell, the Tau will accept anyone's help if their heart is in the right place.

Kilkrazy wrote:Truth to tell, the Tau will accept anyone's help if their heart is in the right place.

That is one auxiliary I would love to use!

Mind I have always liked the Tau, and I hope they improve the Crisis Suits a little, that way I would be happy to pick up an army of them

Kilkrazy wrote:Truth to tell, the Tau will accept anyone's help if their heart is in the right place.

Or rather seems to be in the right place, as the Kroot attest.

Jefffar wrote:

Manchu wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:they could give the tarelians something unique, like make one more CC oriented (probably kroot) and tarelians more shooty

Ask yourself where that leaves the Tau.

The Tau are the leaders, the Elites and have the best equipment of course.

Oh ho ho ho, so now we're not saying that the only HQ choices are going to be Tau? Thats preferable to me, but it seems like people were singing a different tune a page ago...

Manchu wrote:With that in mind, I would guess Demiurg were the most influential regarding the Earth Caste.

Also, are we sure Demiurg are Squats? Or do we actually know nothing about Demiurg? Because if Tau tech comes in part from the Demiurg then, barring something completely new, wouldn't that mean Tau tech is at least partly from the Dark Age of Technology?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Manchu wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:they could give the tarelians something unique, like make one more CC oriented (probably kroot) and tarelians more shooty

Ask yourself where that leaves the Tau.

Cheap shooty, markerlight use, drone attachments, Use of devilfish. There's a good bit.

So in that case let's ask where that leaves the Tarellians.

AFAIK, we don't know exactly what Demiurg are physically, just that they behave much like dwarves in space (mining and industry, etc.). There have been pics thrown around here and there of supposed concept art (what most people have missed is that there is no indication whatsoever that this art is representative of a member of the Demiurg, its all just fan conjecture) ranging from space-dwarves to crystalline/rock-like critters. Personally, I hope GW throws us all for a loop and Demiurg look nothing like space dwarves at all...

What we do know from the past Games Day season is that GW was immensely displeased with the campy attempt at space dwarves that was the squats, and their decision to eliminate them from the background was so that they could revisit the concept from scratch. I highly doubt they are going to be so direct as to bring back the squats or anything resembling the idea of "traditional" space dwarves.

As for where that leaves the Tarellians.... Elites?

Manchu wrote:With that in mind, I would guess Demiurg were the most influential regarding the Earth Caste.

Also, are we sure Demiurg are Squats? Or do we actually know nothing about Demiurg? Because if Tau tech comes in part from the Demiurg then, barring something completely new, wouldn't that mean Tau tech is at least partly from the Dark Age of Technology? [//quote]

I' am sure I heard somebody say demiurg are technically space gnomes not space dwarves but I don't know much else besides that.