BrotherHaraldus wrote:

... I mean, I get that some dislike one of the several ways Marines are portrayed- the 'demigod' aspect- but it almost has seemed to reach the point where some say 'B-but X kills tons of Marines real quick and effective =)))))' as if just to protest against the status quo, what with Marines being given the most fluff, has most players, is even described on p151 of the latest WD as the 'core of the 40K universe'. (Wow, that was a long sentence...) Not to offend anyone, of course. I agree that other factions could get a bit more attention. But it's the way it is. In fact, if Sisters got an update (And I mean a real update, like the Necrons or DE got, not an online only crapdex) I would play them. Honestly. It's only the old models, very expensive models, order-only stuff, bad codex and general outdatedness that keeps forcing me away from them.

Thing is, that's the problem right there. The company (distinct from the studio) treats the SM differently to every other faction. They say; "they sell the best, so we dedicate more attention to them" but that is a self -reinforcing loop / self-fulfilling prophesy. SM get better/more press than other factions which leads to SM selling better, so they get better/more press, which in turn helps them to sell better, with in-turn justifies more/better press, and on it has gone for the last 20 odd years. And always at the expense of other factions, and at the expense of a richer, more diverse and more interesting hobby. Sisters are merely the most egregious example of a faction that gets sidelined so they can spend more time making more SM and SM related products. It's a sickness. WFB does not suffer from it, (at least not to nearly the same extent), nor do other wargame settings/properties, but 40K is firmly stuck in this cycle.

Personally, I would love to see a 40K where SM were not the 'core' of the universe, where the faction was positioned alongside the others, rather than above, but given the way GW (and to an extent her fans) operate, it's not something I see happening.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

For the sake of the argument, I checked the WD from the GK release month. It was rather enlightening. To quote Mat Ward:

WD #376 page 22 wrote:Not only is their geneseed something unique in respect to other Space Marines but every one of their number is a psyker. There is an interesting dichotomy here; the incorruptible guardians that protect against the Warp all have within them the capacity to become gateways for the very entities they are sworn to destroy. After all, it has been said many times, that an untrained and unsanctioned psyker can bring whole star systems to their knees, as Daemons flock to them like moths to a candle, using them as an opening into our realm. But that is just one of the many ironies of the 41st Millennium and why it's such an interesting place. A weak-minded psyker is a danger to the Imperium. The Grey Knights, however, are not weak of will, in fact theirs is the mightiest since the Emperor himself, who, let's not forget, was a psyker. A Grey Knight has never fallen or been swayed by Chaos. They are sorcerers all - and I use that term quite deliberately - but ones who use their powers for the defence of Mankind.

Dare you resist the holy word of Mat Ward, our spiritual liege?

In this case Ward is simply repeating old lore (that psykers are vulnerable to daemonic attack) with his new (and bad) take that all GKs are psykers. The passing Grey Knights as legendary, last, best chance for victory against Chaos to lols, space marines with better gear/powers is one of the saddest losses in all the retconns. The proper way to do GKs would be as an upgrade sprue(s) and WD entry. Making them just another flavour of Space Marine diminished them greatly.

But Melissia is right in the end- but not because of something Ward created.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Fix'd.

Your ignorance of the lore is not my problem.

Psykers, by the nature of being psykers, are more vulnerable to daemonic infestation than non-psykers. This isn't a Brand New Thing. And Matt Ward has not retconned it. It's been part of all the FFG series, it's been part of every BL book involving psykers, and it's been part of all GW lore involving psykers. It's not a New Thing That I Made Up, this is longstanding lore that has been consistent from at least second edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, I was wrong-- it HAS been since the RT era, not second edition. So it was a fundamental aspect since the dawn of the setting.

In particular, Enslavers come from the RT era, and they exemplify the reason why psykers are dangerous to everyone around them and vulnerable to daemons.



Though they did look a little silly back then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, found a good explanation of Enslavers. From Creatures Anathema:

Also known as Psyrens, Krell, Dominators, or Puppeteers, the mysterious Enslavers are possibly one of the greatest threats for not only the Imperium but all living beings. While they live at least part of their lives in the Warp, they have material bodies and can exist naturally in the material realm. Their very existence is a closely guarded secret, with only a select few knowing what these beings truly represent, and the hideous fate that could befall the Imperium if they overpower mankind.
[...]
Enslavers travel on the currents of the Immaterium and are drawn to the psychic emanations of living creatures, especially from unprotected psykers, who they can detect from many light years away. Once a psyker is found, three Enslavers form a dominating mental bond with the target and bring about a sickening transformation . The host is distorted and twisted over a period of days, falling into lethargy and finally becoming a living warp portal, a pulsating arch of ruptured flesh which permits the trio of Enslavers ingress in to the material plane. Once enslaverss have appeared on a world, they seek out and transform more psykers so that more Enslavers appear, thus often heralding the end of that world.

They are by no means the only ones which can do this. All psykers' minds are like a doorway to the Warp, which daemons are constantly trying to force open.

As someone who reads Superhero comics I have precisely zero complaints about demigods who can slaughter armies single handedly.

Because I come from settings where dudes can bench press multiple planets and yet still stop bank robberies.

40K is a superhero setting, among other things. People like Kaldor Draigo and the Phoenix Lords match my expectations of a superhero rather well.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
40K is a superhero setting, among other things. People like Kaldor Draigo and the Phoenix Lords match my expectations of a superhero rather well.

And, ironically, fairly consistent and actually a bit more mature than say, Marvel. Unless it's a daemon, a character in W40K actually stands a chance of staying dead.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
40K is a superhero setting, among other things. People like Kaldor Draigo and the Phoenix Lords match my expectations of a superhero rather well.

And, ironically, fairly consistent and actually a bit more mature than say, Marvel. Unless it's a daemon, a character in W40K actually stands a chance of staying dead.

Eliphas. ;D

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
40K is a superhero setting, among other things. People like Kaldor Draigo and the Phoenix Lords match my expectations of a superhero rather well.

And, ironically, fairly consistent and actually a bit more mature than say, Marvel. Unless it's a daemon, a character in W40K actually stands a chance of staying dead.

Eliphas. ;D

Compared to nearly every single Marvel superhero at some point.

True...

Don't be ridiculous, 40k is not a superhero setting.

 Melissia wrote:
Don't be ridiculous, 40k is not a superhero setting.

Melissa is right this time. You get heroes but their "heroness" is directly proportionate to their surroundings. So an Ork "Hero" is still just an Ork albeit a strong one. If he takes a melta shot to the face he'll stay dead.

 Melissia wrote:
Don't be ridiculous, 40k is not a superhero setting.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
40K is a superhero setting, among other things. People like Kaldor Draigo and the Phoenix Lords match my expectations of a superhero rather well.

Reading what you're actually answering to, for once, would not hurt you you know.

It is partially a superhero setting. Perhaps not to a great degree. But Draigo was certainly intended to be just that, even if he is not the traditional Lawful Stupid, (Though how good a job Mat did is something I cba to argue about.) but as long as one exists, then it is, partially, a superhero setting.

Unless, of course, you'd rather like to argue semantics, in which case I have better things to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Don't be ridiculous, 40k is not a superhero setting.

Melissa is right this time. You get heroes but their "heroness" is directly proportionate to their surroundings. So an Ork "Hero" is still just an Ork albeit a strong one. If he takes a melta shot to the face he'll stay dead.

If this is a criteria, what stops Thawn from being a hero? Compared to his surroundings, he certainly seems like one.

I think they need to step back from the "hero" aspect some. There is something to be said about Exceptionalism, but applying logic to this setting is just a self defeating methodology.
The stories we hear from the setting all revolve around the most exceptional people of the setting, who are exceptional even by the backgrounds they come from. (E.G) Ibram Gaunt is an "Exceptional" Commisar, Cato Sicarius is an "Exceptional" Space Marine.

By this standard, we should expect their exploits to be a cut above what their more grounded peers can accomplish.

Marines as a rule tend to get shoehorned into a exceptionalist role whenever they are in the spotlight. "Extrodinary" circumstances, with "extrodinary" people, resulting in larger than life adventures, battles, rivalries and results. That being said, your average mook marine is considered exceptional, in the fluff, which by OUR logic, doesn't count for anything. But since the fluff holds them up as "paragons" and " exceptional" they as a rule of thumb should be expected to over-perform to some degree. This can be partly in my opinion attributed to "Nescessity" forced on them by the setting, that they MUST over perform, or they lose, and are wiped out to a man.
Marines still die left and right in fluff, whether or not its an Ork Waagh, a Tyranid Hive, Black Crusade, or whatever.
I think the part that can make it hard to swallow involves more the old replacement rate fluff, and the capped level of personnel a chapter brings to bear in war. Granted, when I say war, I more mean a surgical strike, or planetary flashpoints and hot spots they get deployed to.
Marines in the current fluff aren't their pre-heresy selves, conquering planets by themselves in massive waves of power armor. Anytime they are said to have done so in fluff in my book, you can pretty safely assume they had help getting it done.

That being said, they fill an apt role of inspirational figures, "exceptional" fighters, and tacticians, elite warriors. But that is because the current fluff doesn't follow the upright logic we follow today which tells us they use a lot of resources, and in protracted wars, they couldn't hope to win.
Then again, the fluff tends to run with the "Ride to the Castle full of evil baddies and kill them and save the world" or the classic "The evil horde is going to overrun the last bastion of hope, only the hero can save us" tropes. Which is pretty unimaginative in my opinion, but given THAT is the condition for victory in fluff. Marines largely fit that fluff they have been put into.


/rant

It should be noted that, if Draigo is a "super-hero", he's the hero of a Greek Tragedy, as absolutely nothing he has done, or is doing, is making any difference whatsoever. He is the Sisyphus of the setting.

 Psienesis wrote:
absolutely nothing he has done, or is doing, is making any difference whatsoever.

Except Mortarion's heart. He made a big difference to that.

 Troike wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
absolutely nothing he has done, or is doing, is making any difference whatsoever.

Except Mortarion's heart. He made a big difference to that.

So far, far as I know, the only difference is to Mortarion's pride, really.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
40K is a superhero setting, among other things. People like Kaldor Draigo and the Phoenix Lords match my expectations of a superhero rather well.

And, ironically, fairly consistent and actually a bit more mature than say, Marvel. Unless it's a daemon, a character in W40K actually stands a chance of staying dead.

Eliphas. ;D

Compared to nearly every single Marvel superhero at some point.

To be exact, there are perpetuals, Eliphas, daemons, the Phoenix Lords, Dark Eldar apparently, Necrons (to a limited degree but they are rather hard to kill for good), Tyranids, there are many chaos that apparently know necromancy and can revive somebody that was of chaos. These are all capable of returning after death or will return after death

TiamatRoar wrote:

So far, far as I know, the only difference is to Mortarion's pride, really.

Well, I'm pretty sure he was banished since it took him many years to return to the Materium.

StarTrotter wrote:To be exact, there are perpetuals, Eliphas, daemons, the Phoenix Lords, Dark Eldar apparently, Necrons (to a limited degree but they are rather hard to kill for good), Tyranids, there are many chaos that apparently know necromancy and can revive somebody that was of chaos. These are all capable of returning after death or will return after death

It is possible to permanently kill Perpetuals, Daemons, Dark Eldar (if you get to the Haemonculus), Necrons and favoured Chaos-devotees. It just takes more effort. Phoenix Lords it's hard to tell (can you destroy the armour?) and for Tyranids you'd have to destroy the entirety of the Tyranids (or just the Hive Fleet. The background is pretty sketchy on that part).

Aye I know that. I just wanted to point it out. Its kinda like daemons can't be killed. Except they can but its this rediculously random, arbitrary, pulling out of my unmentionable logic that in the end really just means the emotions go back to the chaos gods.

Whilst all of them can die, daemons will only die for good in narrative, the Eldar armor seem implied they can die but anybody putting it on revives them again so unless a writer decides to kill them off for good, they won't, etc.

Just thought I'd add:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Just thought I'd add:

They really need to adjust bolters to be more lethal. If not this edition, then the next. 20mm Mass-Reactive Rocket-Propelled rounds tipped with nigh invincible metal is nothing to laugh at.

I agree. Well, to a degree. If so, they need to adjust PA and everything as well. If it had a 16% percent unit protection advantage over Carapace Armour when someone is beating you with a stick, it really would not be worth it. Besides, Power Armour is rather resistant even to bolter fire.

I'd imagine a Space Marine Honour Guard would be more skilled at close combat than a Krieg Guardsman, for example. Statswise he isn't.

Really, the rules, to me, are just there to provide a game system where you can use reasonably similarly sized armies and still have a fair game. I've already said this once (Even in this thread, I think?) but in a WD this very topic was discussed, and above reasoning was given. Apparently a Tactical Squad versus a massive Ork horde would be a fair fight in the 'real' 40K, but less 'visually exciting' which explains why the game is designed the way it is. Or maybe it's just so that you will have to buy more Space Marines. The latter seems more likely...

Or, to sum up, Marines get their units heavily nerfed and 'weaker' races like Guardsmen get their units heavily buffed in the fluff-to-gameplay transition, and/or vice versa.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I agree. Well, to a degree. If so, they need to adjust PA and everything as well. If it had a 16% percent unit protection advantage over Carapace Armour when someone is beating you with a stick, it really would not be worth it. Besides, Power Armour is rather resistant even to bolter fire.

I'd imagine a Space Marine Honour Guard would be more skilled at close combat than a Krieg Guardsman, for example. Statswise he isn't.

Really, the rules, to me, are just there to provide a game system where you can use reasonably similarly sized armies and still have a fair game. I've already said this once (Even in this thread, I think?) but in a WD this very topic was discussed, and above reasoning was given. Apparently a Tactical Squad versus a massive Ork horde would be a fair fight in the 'real' 40K, but less 'visually exciting' which explains why the game is designed the way it is. Or maybe it's just so that you will have to buy more Space Marines. The latter seems more likely...

Or, to sum up, Marines get their units heavily nerfed and 'weaker' races like Guardsmen get their units heavily buffed in the fluff-to-gameplay transition, and/or vice versa.

There's also the Legion of the Damned not being outright invincible gods of war that make Heresy-Era veterans of the World Eaters scared and gun them down like punks. Of course, such would never work on the tabletop and be worse than the Taudar. Invincible undead ghosts that instantly kill in melee probably wouldn't fly that well with any sane person in the playerbase.

They are cool as a concept though. They're the pinnacle of power for an Astartes and properly fit their role as the 'Emperor's Angels'. Plus they're what goes bump in the night for Chaos Space Marines.

I think it´s worth remembering that Space marines was very much a "independent" force, in the times of the horus Herecy.

The had fleets and army with them, but more often then not only as support and to maintain control when the main body of the fleet would move on.

- - They are not SOF, meant to lacermark targets for the airforce after spending 3 months on a barren hill- no they simply trump up and beat the gak out of the target with a powerfist.

The whole point of Astartes is that you can launch a uncomplicated mission with minimal support - and still get great results.

- - If anything the only anoying aspect is that the Board game marines die left and right these days (with plasma being the new black) they never perform anywhere neer the heroics in the many great books! - They are blown up to being near invincible but thats far far from true on the board game!

(( YES I´m well aware that's to make a fun and balanced game, but I just think the 2 should be more "Attuned" .Maybe more marines should be dying in various novels.))

To be honest, there is always the movie marine route. You may disagree with the exact stats but making your own buffed-up Marine stats is quite easy and it should not be too hard to find someone to play it against, if you write it in a balanced way. It is ultimately not entirely viable to do this every time but it is interesting.

If Marines suffered a tenth of the casualties they do in the game they would not be 'inefficient', they would have gone extinct during the early Great Crusade. That is enough for me to assume that fluff is extremely different in that aspect from the game itself.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
To be honest, there is always the movie marine route. You may disagree with the exact stats but making your own buffed-up Marine stats is quite easy and it should not be too hard to find someone to play it against, if you write it in a balanced way. It is ultimately not entirely viable to do this every time but it is interesting.

If Marines suffered a tenth of the casualties they do in the game they would not be 'inefficient', they would have gone extinct during the early Great Crusade. That is enough for me to assume that fluff is extremely different in that aspect from the game itself.

I really don't like the whole "movie marine" concept for 40k marines (It works with Horus Heresy) because it's just so boring to read. 10 marines blew up a planet on their own? That's interesting about once not 4 billion times. I prefer the RT concept or making marines more like the gameplay but inflating chapter numbers to 10 thousand per chapter.

I was referencing his last point about gameplay.

I have never, ever advocated that 10 Space Marines should blow up a planet on their own- not without spaceships, detonators for really big bombs or similar- and I know few others who have.

I am more than fine with OP Marines in fluff and 1000 per chapter. In fact, OP Marines is one of the most attractive parts of the setting for me. Loyalists, traitors, Grey Knights and Custodes alike.

There's a difference between very, very powerful Marines, planet-busting Marines, and stuntdouble-toting Marines.

People tend to assume it is one and the same.

Actually,my guess would be that most do not see them one and the same. Most think one of the objects doesn't belong because it makes no sense at all in the context in the game and makes the whole fluff break down. And that would be the movie Marines or OP ones.

Not saying the setting has to be logical in its entirety, but plausible. It is not plausible when they are depicted as OP as it breaks down the fundamental setting altogether and makes 90% fluff useless.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Actually,my guess would be that most do not see them one and the same. Most think one of the objects doesn't belong because it makes no sense at all in the context in the game and makes the whole fluff break down. And that would be the movie Marines or OP ones.

Not saying the setting has to be logical in its entirety, but plausible. It is not plausible when they are depicted as OP as it breaks down the fundamental setting altogether and makes 90% fluff useless.

Depends on to what degree they are OP.

Are we talking Nob-wrestling OP, or Dreadnought-wrestling OP?

Keep your OP away, they should explodre when someone fires a 155mm shell at e'm.

Hey, when I do fluff arguing about Mahreens, I do not take my own preferences into account. I only use what I can explicitly source as arguments.

Nothing's stopping me from mentioning my preferences, though. Just like you mention yours.

I think perhaps the OP has a point, but I suggest an alternative viewpoint for him to consider.

A small force of Space Marines can handle a planetwide infestation of bugs or heretics, a larger force can protect an entire star system, and the whole Chapter? Well, haha, they can pretty much do anything. Which seems pretty akin to say, the SAS, except on a much much larger scale.

Think of it this way, Space Marines are like USMC or SAS or whatever flavour of Special Forces you like, except that the scale on which they operate is much more vast. Taking control on an entire planet is akin to holding a critical objective for a Space Marine. Drops in a bucket kind of logic right?

As for the marketing of GW, well I think it's safe to say, some Englishmen just can't hold their finances! Someone mentioned the cyclical nature of mass marketing, and I think that's very true. If lets say for example the new Tyranids Codex got the same attention as the Space Marines then regardless of it's content it would still sell exponentially better. Let me ask you, when was the last time you even saw a GW advertisement outside of the painfully obvious spots, like a games store?

I personally think that Tyranids look great and even though the book is said to be weak and all the other publication jive that's been attached to it has pretty much blackballed 'Nids I would still like to own a Tyranid army!
Why because they look killer! I can just imagine my Sons of Medusa completely surrounded by bugs, bolters spewing out death, the ground covered in gross icky 'Nid blood... Marines going down with gaping wounds, tanks exploding into melted sticky chunks, giant aliens screaming in the background while a million mandibles click and clack...

It's almost intoxicating, you saw it too didn't you! And I wasn't even trying! How awesome would it be to have a full on Tyranid assault? Black Library starts cranking out books about Nids eating everything, GW quietly rewrites the Codex as Biggest Supplement Yet (Read: Tyranids Codex 7th ed) and instead of trying to backtrack with them, bring out new models, cut the prices, and tell store owners to give away a box of Warriors with every purchase over $50.

Bam, suddenly everyone wants to play 'Nids because, wow hey look, people are excited about them! All it took was a little effort...

You could do the same with any of the factions! Also I think having the solid SM fanbase helps with that too. SM are constantly hailed as being great for new players, so already you have a large section of players who are already at least somewhat interested in the other factions. The Allies rules were probably intended to encourage players to expand their armies to include other factions, but without any marketing or support, and with the overarching problem of pricing that idea just flopped hard.

You want to see Space Marines become more aligned with their role as Special Forces I say sure! Do it by making the other factions more appealing to everyone. At least that will fill your meta up with a more varied range of opponents.

 Peregrine wrote:
....They're doing the equivalent of "try typing 'passw0rd' at the login screen" while everyone else is sitting around consulting the holy texts and trying to find the proper ritual of password breaking...

Brilliant.

Think of it this way, Space Marines are like USMC or SAS or whatever flavour of Special Forces you like, except that the scale on which they operate is much more vast. Taking control on an entire planet is akin to holding a critical objective for a Space Marine. Drops in a bucket kind of logic right?

Special forces can't operate on a large scale though. If you want to control a planet, you need a bunch of guys standing around guarding stuff. If that's what space marines are doing then they are vulnerable, because their chief advantage (in my opinion) is mobility. Of course, the marines could hang around in orbit and strike at the enemy whenever they begin to mobilize on the planet's surface, and this would effectively lock down the planet. I believe the marines could do this very effectively, but that is very different from actually holding the planet

The problem is that many people here keep trying to apply real-world tactics and military doctrines for Space Marines when:

*It should be clear that the GW staff know ****all about actual military tactics (which would also explain Failbaddon).

*GW writers clearly all failed their Maths (but then so do most authors as TV Tropes shows us) when its comes to just how many Space Marines their need to be for them to actually be effective, super-human or now (I recall a brilliant topic either here or on BoLS discussing it, and the consensus was SM chapters needed to be at least 2 orders of magnitude larger, if not more, to be an effective fighting force).

*Even the codices are not consistent about how powerful Space Marines are. Yes I know, "biased POV" and all, but still. I'm actually starting to think some people at GW didn't realize the Movie Marines list was Tongue-in-Cheek.