Space Marines have gone from the elite special forces of the Imperium, to demigod warrior monks who liberate entire planets on their own. What began as drugged up space cops beating up aliens has over the years spiraled into the Marines we know today. A squad of Marines liberates a planet on their own. A Chapter can rescue an entire star system in days. The Space Marines are the spearhead of the Imperium, the unrivaled, the best humanity has at their disposal.
Except I feel as though the Space Marines might be a little overstated. Obviously it's because the models are the most popular, so of course they get more face time with the public and in the setting. But the fact remains that the Space Marines are the special forces. So I'd like to see that reemphasized.
In real life, the United States Marine Corps is a rapid response unit that can deploy forces around the globe at a moment's notice. Often their job is to take and hold an objective independently until a larger force arrives to take care of the crisis permanently. I feel that that is what the Space Marines should be, shock troopers that make planetfall and hold down the fort until the Guard and the Navy can mobilize. One thousand marines conquering a planet just feels out of place. One thousand marines holding specific checkpoints and positions, performing asset denial across a planet makes much more sense. A company of marines spread out across a city holding strategically valuable locations is a lot more reasonable than the crazy stuff we see in Black Library and Fluff pieces.
Basically, I'd like to see the marines act in conjunction with the Navy and Imperial Guard, rather than as the separate organization they've become. If the division of Navy and Army was an attempt to prevent individuals from gaining too much power, I'd like to see a similar structure put in place for the Marines. The Imperium's armed forces working together with combined arms tactics and take and hold strategies really appeals to me.
Nah. I personally enjoy them much more as now, as W40K attempting to claim any realistic sci fi is simply ridiculous. It's far better off emphasizing that W40K is Science Fantasy and not Science Fiction, with the Space Marines being the current superhuman knights in space with a large amount of fantasy concepts as compared to modern specops or real life marines. Plus there's already guard regiments that fulfill those roles, and unique chapters of Space Marines to fit the roles as well.
Plus, the astetes being superhuman supersoldiers capable of seizing planets with a couple squads actually makes more sense than them being reasonable marine specop squads following modern combat tactics- as it explains why they're still produced instead of simply be replaced by Storm Troopers. You don't blow the massive amount of resources on the Astartes that the Imperium does without them having a massive and efficient return.
Wyzilla wrote: You don't blow the massive amount of resources on the Astartes that the Imperium does without them having a massive and efficient return.
Or blind religious devotion to your warrior-monks. That's part of why the Imperium is so horrible, nothing it does is ever practical or intelligent. So you have entire planets full of misery dedicated to producing useless warrior-monks and shrines to the corpse god, instead of more useful weapons to win wars.
Wyzilla wrote: You don't blow the massive amount of resources on the Astartes that the Imperium does without them having a massive and efficient return.
Or blind religious devotion to your warrior-monks. That's part of why the Imperium is so horrible, nothing it does is ever practical or intelligent. So you have entire planets full of misery dedicated to producing useless warrior-monks and shrines to the corpse god, instead of more useful weapons to win wars.
Only as we've gone over before, everywhere except in your own special world, the Imperium literally implodes without the Adeptus Astartes, as they're the pins attempting to hold the house of cards together. Again, there's no evidence supporting your view of the fluff.
Wyzilla wrote: You don't blow the massive amount of resources on the Astartes that the Imperium does without them having a massive and efficient return.
Or blind religious devotion to your warrior-monks. That's part of why the Imperium is so horrible, nothing it does is ever practical or intelligent. So you have entire planets full of misery dedicated to producing useless warrior-monks and shrines to the corpse god, instead of more useful weapons to win wars.
Only as we've gone over before, everywhere except in your own special world, the Imperium literally implodes without the Adeptus Astartes, as they're the pins attempting to hold the house of cards together. Again, there's no evidence supporting your view of the fluff.
Astartes are holding together their pride, nothing more. Too few for whole universe, too rigid, too expensive. They serve its propagandistic uses of course but its just part of Emperors cult. Astartes doesnt win wars, they are shiny posterboys who win skirmishes.
(but I still like the funny setting, so nothing against SM)
Wyzilla wrote: Again, there's no evidence supporting your view of the fluff.
No evidence, other than understanding the scale of the setting. The universe is too big and there are too few space marines for them to be relevant. Even looking at just a single planet you end up with ridiculous situations like a chapter being spread so thinly over a continent that each space marine is miles away from his closest fellow marine. The only sensible way to interpret the fluff is that the most dramatic tales of space marine battles (for example, taking whole planets with a single squad) are nothing more than propaganda and religious devotion, and in reality space marines are roughly equivalent to what we see on the tabletop: decent elite infantry that die like any other infantry against heavy weapons.
But, like I said, this is fine because the entire point of the Imperium is that it's a bunch of insane religious zealots who constantly do things that an outside observer would consider unbelievable idiocy. The entire Imperium is a colossal monument to stupidity and ignorance, and space marines are just one more aspect of that.
Arcsquad12 wrote: Space Marines have gone from the elite special forces of the Imperium, to demigod warrior monks who liberate entire planets on their own. What began as drugged up space cops beating up aliens has over the years spiraled into the Marines we know today. A squad of Marines liberates a planet on their own. A Chapter can rescue an entire star system in days. The Space Marines are the spearhead of the Imperium, the unrivaled, the best humanity has at their disposal.
Except I feel as though the Space Marines might be a little overstated. Obviously it's because the models are the most popular, so of course they get more face time with the public and in the setting. But the fact remains that the Space Marines are the special forces. So I'd like to see that reemphasized.
In real life, the United States Marine Corps is a rapid response unit that can deploy forces around the globe at a moment's notice. Often their job is to take and hold an objective independently until a larger force arrives to take care of the crisis permanently. I feel that that is what the Space Marines should be, shock troopers that make planetfall and hold down the fort until the Guard and the Navy can mobilize. One thousand marines conquering a planet just feels out of place. One thousand marines holding specific checkpoints and positions, performing asset denial across a planet makes much more sense. A company of marines spread out across a city holding strategically valuable locations is a lot more reasonable than the crazy stuff we see in Black Library and Fluff pieces.
Basically, I'd like to see the marines act in conjunction with the Navy and Imperial Guard, rather than as the separate organization they've become. If the division of Navy and Army was an attempt to prevent individuals from gaining too much power, I'd like to see a similar structure put in place for the Marines. The Imperium's armed forces working together with combined arms tactics and take and hold strategies really appeals to me.
You're thinking in a very 21st century fashion.
The above would be mostly true if it was mere Humans with special weapons, armour and tactics. However this is 40k.... 40,000 AD ... that is so unimaginably far into the future it's hard to comprehend. Hell, we have 7 thousand years of recorded history (roughly) and it's incomplete and Humanity has come from stone huts to making video calls on your mobile to the other side of the world. for FREE!.
I do think that an Astartes is much more accurately portrayed in the fluff than in the tabletop rules for obvious balancing reasons. I have no problems them liberating a planet if not facing superior forces.
Wyzilla wrote: You don't blow the massive amount of resources on the Astartes that the Imperium does without them having a massive and efficient return.
Or blind religious devotion to your warrior-monks. That's part of why the Imperium is so horrible, nothing it does is ever practical or intelligent. So you have entire planets full of misery dedicated to producing useless warrior-monks and shrines to the corpse god, instead of more useful weapons to win wars.
Only as we've gone over before, everywhere except in your own special world, the Imperium literally implodes without the Adeptus Astartes, as they're the pins attempting to hold the house of cards together. Again, there's no evidence supporting your view of the fluff.
Astartes are holding together their pride, nothing more. Too few for whole universe, too rigid, too expensive. They serve its propagandistic uses of course but its just part of Emperors cult. Astartes doesnt win wars, they are shiny posterboys who win skirmishes.
(but I still like the funny setting, so nothing against SM)
Only there really isn't much in the fluff to suggest such. Considering the people owning the copyright push Astartes being superhuman supersoldiers- I'm going to go with the guys that own the copyright over the fans' own perception who doesn't own the rights. While W40K does have (a bloody brilliant) policy of everything being canon but also being full of lies- not only the ones in the greatest majority most likely to be true (it's also not inconceivable a vastly augmented human from FORTY THOUSAND years in the future would be an exponentially more powerful than examples of some modern soldiers able to fight off entire platoons of enemies with a shovel), but the stories that have the mental dialogue that would be impossible to otherwise record, motivations, secrets (because a DA novel with the Fallen in it is certainly Word of God) etc are true and undeniable unless you actually stand against the canon with an unsupported opinion. It's why having headcanon for an event in Star Wars or personal perceptions is pointless. It doesn't matter. The canon has been laid down. Even with a vastly more flexible canon policy like W40K's, it's impossible to write off most information as being false without justification that is a far greater amount of bull than it is to take it literally.
The idea of stuff being propaganda is nice and all, but it doesn't hold up at all in theory and is simply ridiculous to hand-wave the entirety of it away. It only makes sense to handwave the uber-high end singular events that are in far fewer number than the main base of the Black Library, like the Space Marines that are faster than light or backflipping Terminators.
But if a single human soldier shot in the leg can fight off a squad of Chinese soldiers in the Korean war and scare off his hundred plus friends single handily with a shovel, I'm pretty certain that some posthuman demigods descending from a living god upgraded with advanced tech developed around twenty thousand years in the future wearing tanks for armor and with the reflexes to dodge a shot from a modern MBT can take a planet if they have a Techmarine with them. You just have to remember that taking over a planet =/= fighting every single enemy on the planet.
But this whole 'lol I'm going to ignore all the fluff' gets ridiculous when you have to pull more ridiculous justifications for doing so as opposed to simply going with it. I hate the Tau, but this doesn't mean I don't suddenly get to say their ability to build planetoids is BS hype simply out of spite.
There aren't enough Space Marines for that (if we go with the most generous generous 1000 chapters of 1000, there are barely 4x the Astartes as there are US Marines). Plus, too many of them have their own crazy subculture to seamlessly integrate with Guard and Navy forces.
Wyzilla wrote: But this whole 'lol I'm going to ignore all the fluff' gets ridiculous when you have to pull more ridiculous justifications for doing so as opposed to simply going with it. I hate the Tau, but this doesn't mean I don't suddenly get to say their ability to build planetoids is BS hype simply out of spite.
Seems Im losing my time, I dont ignore fluff, quite contrary, I really, really like it. Its just I see it more, much more complex than "har har har, Im mighty Space marine and Im here to slaughter ten thousand orks, because thats what we do". Because its simple math and common sense. Of course, Black Library is not good source of fluff, because amount of bolter porn is absurd (and its belletry trash, unfortunately) and cannot be taken much seriously. But I like whole "everything is biased, more or less" theme.
So thats reason, why thousand men strong chapters cant win wars. Wars waged by billions of men. SM are great small squad specops. Tough, heavy hitting. Unfortunately, many authors and fanboys began to show them as godly warriors dancing on battlefield and blasting tanks with farts. Which is stupid. Its much more stupid that in tabletop SM doesnt possess such power. Which is sad, when crunch has more fluff than new written fluff.
So, dont be wrong, I like SM. They are essential part of WH40K, posterboys in good sense of meaning. I just dont like deforming the fluff of SM into guys who are only and sole power of IoM. They are not. They dont have numbers, they dont have power to do so and of course thay are burdened by too much burdened by chapter and imperial politics. And as I like SM classic role of nice anachronism, I also dislike fanboys that cant have touched their shiny metal knights.
I preferred the genetic super freak mutants of old, held together by a combination drugs, fulfilled blood lust and a bit of religion rather than the warrior monk take on them.
The guys who only sleep 4 hours a night because they're wired to feth and crave action rather than the meditating robe wearing marines of current.
That's me personally though, they were more grimdark in 2nd and 3rd editions.
Wyzilla wrote: But this whole 'lol I'm going to ignore all the fluff' gets ridiculous when you have to pull more ridiculous justifications for doing so as opposed to simply going with it. I hate the Tau, but this doesn't mean I don't suddenly get to say their ability to build planetoids is BS hype simply out of spite.
Seems Im losing my time, I dont ignore fluff, quite contrary, I really, really like it. Its just I see it more, much more complex than "har har har, Im mighty Space marine and Im here to slaughter ten thousand orks, because thats what we do". Because its simple math and common sense. Of course, Black Library is not good source of fluff, because amount of bolter porn is absurd (and its belletry trash, unfortunately) and cannot be taken much seriously. But I like whole "everything is biased, more or less" theme.
So thats reason, why thousand men strong chapters cant win wars. Wars waged by billions of men. SM are great small squad specops. Tough, heavy hitting. Unfortunately, many authors and fanboys began to show them as godly warriors dancing on battlefield and blasting tanks with farts. Which is stupid. Its much more stupid that in tabletop SM doesnt possess such power. Which is sad, when crunch has more fluff than new written fluff.
So, dont be wrong, I like SM. They are essential part of WH40K, posterboys in good sense of meaning. I just dont like deforming the fluff of SM into guys who are only and sole power of IoM. They are not. They dont have numbers, they dont have power to do so and of course thay are burdened by too much burdened by chapter and imperial politics. And as I like SM classic role of nice anachronism, I also dislike fanboys that cant have touched their shiny metal knights.
Ah see, we more or less on the same page.
An Astartes Chapter can solo a planet and its defenses, but that's not because they face them all down in a single fight. While they can do that and they'll take down a lot more enemies than a Guard Regiment could even dream of, it's a waste of resources. The only time it's ever useful is when the enemy is daemonic in origin or are traitor Astartes, where the only really viable counter is dispatching a fleet to waste a planet or a chapter of astartes to fight them on equal terms.
The real advantage of Astartes comes from Techmarines and Librarians. Librarians allow them to perceive the strategic moves their enemies will make on the battlefield before they're even made. They know where to go and what to do before it even happens. There know the weaknesses of their enemies and where to strike where it'll hurt the enemy most. With Techmarines, you have gods of Hollywood Hacking able to brute-force their way through nearly any computer system in W40K, including the alien ones, with little experience. They are computers and communicate with them on a constant basis. The reason why a squad with a techmarine would solo a planet like Earth is thanks to him being able to completely cripple the technology of the planet and crash any communication not using LAN. They'll send everyone back to the dark ages and shut down all production of power, make reactors go critical, and reach the endgame whenever they get access to nuclear weapons or other WMD's like VX gas. Chapters are capable of logistically GGing most enemies besides the Eldar and Necrons thanks to simply be better equipped, better trained, and just better than the average force of humans or Chaos Cultists.
While I do love my science fantasy righteous knights of humanity and their fallen kin, yeah, you won't see me ever arguing an Astartes can solo an Ork Waagh in direct combat. W40K is a game of numbers in direct warfare. The Orks, Guards, Chaos, and even the Necrons when they awake in great numbers, are capable of literally drowning you in numbers or even their own blood. This also comes up in the fluff as well, with hordes of Nurgle zombies in the BILLIONS simply drowning space marines or guards in a literal wave of bodies. While astartes armor is immensely strong- W40K has the numbers to throw around on a planetary level that a squad can be swallowed up by a mob and disassembled as a thousands of enemies pull them apart with their bare hands.
This is why Siege of Castellax is one of my favorite novels in the Black Library- it gets astartes right. The Iron Warriors are impressive in a fight and can slaughter hundreds of Orks- but they're fighting billions. They get overwhelmed and even with millions (probably billions actually) of their Janissary regiments and gigantic fortresses- crumble before an Ork Waaagh!. There's simply too many of the Orks. They only survive by one of the few surviving Iron Warriors (out of around a hundred I think, there's like five guys that survive) and new Warsmith boardcasts a signal of 'help' to a nearby loyalist world that draws away the Orks after they've completely sacked the planet and want a new fight, which an unsuspecting planet supplies them with. Meanwhile, the surviving tiny amount of Iron Warriors and few other slaves in their service are left to pick up the pieces and rebuilt the whole damn planet, which just got decimated and production for the rest of the Legion crippled.
What I despise is people who wave away all of the fluff and argue that Astartes armor is tinfoil and would lose to a guard regiment in a direct war.
Wyzilla wrote: The real advantage of Astartes comes from Techmarines and Librarians.
Then why even bother with the rest of the chapter? Why not just make librarians and techmarines and attach them to conventional forces?
With Techmarines, you have gods of Hollywood Hacking able to brute-force their way through nearly any computer system in W40K, including the alien ones, with little experience.
Sorry, but the "hollywood hacking" cliche is just plain stupid, and the idea of marines winning wars by hacking all of the computer systems doesn't fit at all with the conventional portrayal of marines winning wars by slaughtering their enemies with bolter and chainsword. The more reasonable interpretation is that the feats of hacking are wildly exaggerated propaganda, and techmarines only look like gods of hacking because of the staggering ignorance of everyone else. They're doing the equivalent of "try typing 'passw0rd' at the login screen" while everyone else is sitting around consulting the holy texts and trying to find the proper ritual of password breaking.
What I despise is people who wave away all of the fluff and argue that Astartes armor is tinfoil and would lose to a guard regiment in a direct war.
Too bad, because that's what would happen. Power armor can plausibly stop lasguns, but IG regiments have more than enough plasma/melta guns, artillery, etc. And of course if you bring in real WMDs the last dying act of every IG unit faced with space marines should be to call in a tactical nuclear strike and vaporize the entire marine force in a single shot.
I wouldn't say that IG have loads of plasma and melta, those weapons are pretty rare (especially plasma). Only on the tabletop are they able to take more per squad than SM. Their artillery is powerful against foes that are acting in a direct way, but SM aren't like Orks or traitors, they'll have sabotaged the artillery even before their main forces make planetfall.
Wyzilla wrote: The real advantage of Astartes comes from Techmarines and Librarians.
Then why even bother with the rest of the chapter? Why not just make librarians and techmarines and attach them to conventional forces?
With Techmarines, you have gods of Hollywood Hacking able to brute-force their way through nearly any computer system in W40K, including the alien ones, with little experience.
Sorry, but the "hollywood hacking" cliche is just plain stupid, and the idea of marines winning wars by hacking all of the computer systems doesn't fit at all with the conventional portrayal of marines winning wars by slaughtering their enemies with bolter and chainsword. The more reasonable interpretation is that the feats of hacking are wildly exaggerated propaganda, and techmarines only look like gods of hacking because of the staggering ignorance of everyone else. They're doing the equivalent of "try typing 'passw0rd' at the login screen" while everyone else is sitting around consulting the holy texts and trying to find the proper ritual of password breaking.
What I despise is people who wave away all of the fluff and argue that Astartes armor is tinfoil and would lose to a guard regiment in a direct war.
Too bad, because that's what would happen. Power armor can plausibly stop lasguns, but IG regiments have more than enough plasma/melta guns, artillery, etc. And of course if you bring in real WMDs the last dying act of every IG unit faced with space marines should be to call in a tactical nuclear strike and vaporize the entire marine force in a single shot.
Only again, your view is simply an unsupported view save by the flimsiest of Black Library works that is otherwise unsupported, even by the people who own the copyright who constantly push Astartes being superhuman supersoldiers capable of soloing guard regiments like it's nothing. And the person who owns the rights is always correct. And as for the nukes-
Spoiler:
Probably not a very good way to get rid of infantry, who are already capable of surviving Viral Bombs with sufficient protection from the resulting fireball. Not to mention we also have examples of armor in W40K tanking nukes like no business anyway.
Warhammer 40K is not realistic. Not remotely. It involves races with clap-your-hands-if-you-believe logic, eldritch abominations, more eldritch abominations, psychic reality-warping space elves, reality-warping masters of science to the point they're culture-lite, and a human empire ruled by a living god/composite human capable of pimp-slapping eldritch abominations employing exalted demigod children of previously mentioned living god, possesses reality-warping tech, uses reality-warping soldiers, is a race of reality-warpers mentally bound to an extra dimensional universe of pure thought, and is forty thousand years in the bloody future.
Warhammer 40k is not hard sci fi, not even remotely so. It's as serious and plausible as Doctor Who with a wonky universe bordering Marvel 616 on level of insanity with the amount of eldritch abominations running about and wrecking everything. Nearly EVERYONE in Warhammer 40k is a reality warper, including the near entirety of humanity and the Astartes super-race it's produced.
But wait, somehow your baseless view on W40K is correct, despite even the company behind it providing such a view absolutely no support and disagreeing with it completely with W40K being an outlandish grim dystopian universe that has zero grounding in reality?
If clearly your view of W40K is completely divergent from the existing canon and information on it that the owners have supplied it, why do you even frequent W40K forums instead of simply buggering off to a different, realistic wargame unlike W40K? Because save for some outlier IG novels, there's nothing supporting this view at all which the Rulebook, Codices, Imperial Armor, and Horus Heresy certainly don't support in the least. There is nothing solid to support Astartes being weak wastes of resources besides blatant preferable handwaving of the canon in favor of a minority, which causes more problems and conflicts more with W40K for it being a pitiful attempt to ground W40K in any sense of realism or reality. The majority is always right. As of now and for a great deal of time that merely grows with the more material GW releases, the Astartes reign supreme as a critical force within the Imperium and the nails holding it together. While the Imperial Guard is indeed critical for its survival and another reason why the Imperium continues to exist (both the hammer and the chisel are needed and cannot be used without the other)- there is nothing at all to support that Astartes are useless wastes of resources that does not involve completely changing W40K, and what GW wants it to be.
In the end, it does not matter at all what the fans want. Unless they boycott it for changes, GW pushes what it wants in the fluff. Just be thankful like the rest of us that it is currently at a reasonable and enjoyable stage, and not entered such stupidity like megameter marines or FTL marines.Hopefully those examples stay in the dark basement of the Black Library and never see the light of the day.
Sorry mate, I dont think that quarter of planet thinking that Earth is flat will make it Discworld. Although it would be cool!
Wyzilla wrote: In the end, it does not matter at all what the fans want. Unless they boycott it for changes, GW pushes what it wants in the fluff.
On the contrary, I cant remember how many times I've read and hear "Forge your narrative" in GW materials Oh and I would love GW to actually push fluff forward.
But to be honest, serious and not smartfeth. WH40K fluff is full of holes and layers of bizzare plot armor. HH is best example why is better not to dwell into mythological age. With such scale of inconsistency people will simply work their own narrative even without tabletop. There is some solid ground around which fluff grows, but there is so many empty patches. It comes to personal interpretation and, without chance to avoid it, some roleplay in discussion For example, Peregrine and me looks at the vast IoM and by simple match we cant see even remotely how could all chapters cover even half of the planets with effective force. And when you have some bigger army of SM (lets say about in numbers of few IG platoons), we see there isnt anything better than simply slaughter them by WMD or simply bury them in mere cultist bodies. Thousand, even hundred of thousands of bodies...still worth of taking huge chunk of chapter.
So, discussion with you about Astartes role is for me... interesting and fun. Because its two different (and natural) personal universes where we forged each own narrative. And I dont like leaning heavily on Black Library as facts, because for example HH is sometimes inconsistent in (for me) crucial parts of fluff, like Curze and his sometimes transfromation from interesting tragic antihero into evily evil villain. And of course, because this is, partly, for me really subsoncious roleplay from rather IG/ SoB/ logistics POV, I dont like sending people to different forums where their opinions doesnt stand in opposition to yours.
Eh...and sorry for my english, I know when writing long posts, my english begins to transform into czech...liguistic Tzeentch probably...
All of the chapters don't need to cover all of the worlds in the imperium though, they only need to cover the worlds that are currently in war, rebellion etc etc, whilst the tagline say there is only war, there isn't actually 'only war', I imagine a vast amount of the imperial worlds aren't a threat or under threat, so the ones that are can be covered by the million marines out there, and the guard etc etc.
There isn't 3 Billion worlds that are in war that need ticking off. There are a couple of thousand at a time, and not all of those require the astartes to sort them out.
One thing to remember with 40k is that most worlds are more like feudal states than our 21st century nation states. With most worlds having 1 sole authority rather than our world which has tons of seperate ruling states on the same planet that are autonomous of each other. So say you have a hive world of 5 billion. The world rebels because it's leaders decide that don't want to pay imperial tithes anymore. Now the people on the ground have no way of getting off world, probably have never even spoken to anyone from the wider imperium and even the planetary defence forces have only heard rumours of the space marines. The Space Marines don't have to kill 5 billion people though. They simply smash in and annihilate the central areas of command with a co-ordinated spearhead assualt. 1000 marines would realistically be able to kill at least ten times their number for minimal casualties, especially when striking an enemy that hasn't had a chance to react. That's 10,000 which should be more than enough to have crippled the leadership of the planet. With the rebel governor dead, a new one is installed and no PDF officer in his right mind is going to continue fighting an enemy that just wiped out the planetary elite in one attack. Planet saved. For more insidious rebellions, like where the populace has been swayed to chaos and the taint runs deep through the populace, then the Inquistion, not the marines, are used, so purge the planet.
In the cases people are using with Orks outnumbering Marines by millions, so should always win...they kinda do. 1000 Marines to crush a system seems to be more aimed at human/tau equivilent enemies. Orks or Nids don't surrender so extermination is always needed and I don't think they are included in the list of enemies that the Marines can stomp. I mean look at Armageddon, a huge amount of chapters and millions of guard were needed to pull off a stalemate there.
I think the Marines uses are well documented in BL fluff and that they do in fact make sense. If a 1000 super human demi gods conquering a world is unrealistic then surely it would be unthinkable that 600 conquistadors could bring down an empire of millions that had endured for 5000 years in the space of a generation...except wait...that happened, and that was before we had planes, missiles or tanks.
The effect was the same, beings that seemed to be god like, appeared with strange weapons and seemed like they could not be defeated, enemy surrenders in terror.
Why are zombies so scary in movies when a crowd of people isn't? Because generally if a small band of armed men, be they police or miliatary. Open fire on thousands of people, they'll kill or injure maybe a hundred but almost every single other person will lose their nerve and run. In zombie movies the other 2000 zombies continue lunging forward and wipe out the armed troops. The humans could have caused just as much damage but each individual cares about his own life and ultimately that is all that matters when it comes to a battle. Imperial guard, heretics, Tau, various other lesser Xenos not represented with models, are thinking beings, not zombies. So when a superior enemy that doesn't feel fear or show mercy, descends and starts tearing into your unit, it doesn't matter that with weight of fire you might win, they took out the leaders first, in a short space of time you have no one to rally around and so you crumbled. Army routs, massacre ensues. And yes sometimes there will be enemies who can and do maintain disicpline or are too insane to run away.
In wars of attrition like Armageddon, Marines are used more as beacons of hope that will bolster the units around them. Like in Helsreach, a handful of Templars are serving as inspiration for thousands of guard and PDf.
All people seem concerned with is fan boy "my gun is stronger than your armour" arguments but seem to be completely missing just how important moral is in any battle or war. That is the point of Marines. Battles that they win are their own are against enemies that they can beat swiftly, if it looks like it'll be a case of grinding the enemy down slowly then the guard take it.
I would say the books are propaganda, the game speaks for itself, one space marine vs a squad of guard . fair fight, it all depends how it would work on a table top that's the proof of the pudding.
KorPhaeron77 wrote: 1000 marines would realistically be able to kill at least ten times their number for minimal casualties
You've just sent whole chapter into fight. Even in over the top fluff it isnt normal. Not even remotely. Well, problem of the over the top fluff is that some authors would say that it can by done by one tactical squad
KorPhaeron77 wrote: If a 1000 super human demi gods conquering a world is unrealistic then surely it would be unthinkable that 600 conquistadors could bring down an empire of millions that had endured for 5000 years in the space of a generation...except wait...that happened, and that was before we had planes, missiles or tanks.
The effect was the same, beings that seemed to be god like, appeared with strange weapons and seemed like they could not be defeated, enemy surrenders in terror.
Oh please dont. Whole Cortez - Aztec war was much more complicated. Cortez used well anti-Aztec clans and use vast numbers of Indian allies. Also, those enemies surrendering in terror almost slaughtered all Spaniard who has to ran away with help of Tlaxcala. Sorry, didnt mean to be offensive, but I really hate such myth about real history
KorPhaeron77 wrote: In wars of attrition like Armageddon, Marines are used more as beacons of hope that will bolster the units around them. Like in Helsreach, a handful of Templars are serving as inspiration for thousands of guard and PDf.
And here I completely agree. I would call it rather posterboys than beacons, but effect is same Well, maybe their effect on common grizzled IG footslogger is exagerrated, nothing that good commisar could do, but I agree
I agree, a 1000 was an extreme example (been too stuck in 30k lately). But even still, there's nothing to stop a 100 or even 50, bypassing defences with a drop pod assault and crippling leadership. The bits that most authors leave out is the guard going to mop up. In Horus Rising (I know I know, 30k but the point is the same) The Luna wolves hammer in and crush the leadership of "Terra" then label it a victory and the world compliant, even though it is noted that the planet wil probably not be pacified for months, maybe even years. By victory, they meant, the guard can now handle it, send marines somewhere else now. Marines seem to be their to fight battles not wars.
I know the Cortez situation was more complicated but there again Cortez wasn't 8 feet tall and didn't fall from the sky in a drop pod and then rip Moctezuma II in half with a power fist
As for the single squads taking on planets, I think this is rare and agree that it is poor writing,
Space Marines are more like the F-22 than the current USMC. They are the exorbitantly expensive day one of war weapon. They are able to fight and win in environments that are just completely lethal to anyone else. Space Hulks. IADS from hell (sometimes literally). Planetary Governor's mansions/fortresses. After they kick down the door then you can do the larger drop of Guard and Titans. For a 10 year war, Astartes might be involved for 3 weeks total, D-Day to D-Day +7 and the final push to the most protected objectives. The entire rest of the time they are just getting shuffled from fire to fire throughout the entire conflagration that is the Imperium.
And yeah, mind wiped psychopaths in power armor is way cooler than a bunch of virgin monks polishing each other's holy bolters.
Arcsquad12 wrote: Space Marines have gone from the elite special forces of the Imperium, to demigod warrior monks who liberate entire planets on their own. What began as drugged up space cops beating up aliens has over the years spiraled into the Marines we know today. A squad of Marines liberates a planet on their own. A Chapter can rescue an entire star system in days. The Space Marines are the spearhead of the Imperium, the unrivaled, the best humanity has at their disposal.
Except I feel as though the Space Marines might be a little overstated. Obviously it's because the models are the most popular, so of course they get more face time with the public and in the setting. But the fact remains that the Space Marines are the special forces. So I'd like to see that reemphasized.
In real life, the United States Marine Corps is a rapid response unit that can deploy forces around the globe at a moment's notice. Often their job is to take and hold an objective independently until a larger force arrives to take care of the crisis permanently. I feel that that is what the Space Marines should be, shock troopers that make planetfall and hold down the fort until the Guard and the Navy can mobilize. One thousand marines conquering a planet just feels out of place. One thousand marines holding specific checkpoints and positions, performing asset denial across a planet makes much more sense. A company of marines spread out across a city holding strategically valuable locations is a lot more reasonable than the crazy stuff we see in Black Library and Fluff pieces.
Basically, I'd like to see the marines act in conjunction with the Navy and Imperial Guard, rather than as the separate organization they've become. If the division of Navy and Army was an attempt to prevent individuals from gaining too much power, I'd like to see a similar structure put in place for the Marines. The Imperium's armed forces working together with combined arms tactics and take and hold strategies really appeals to me.
Space Marines conquer planets by surgical strikes which cripple communication/command/control/retaliatory ability. Anyone still left fighting is terminated with extreme prejudice. Its really not that far-fetched to believe they can do it, its not like anyone is claiming that they defeat every last opposing force, they just destroy their capability and will to fight until nobody is left fighting. Thats certainly how they're portrayed by Forgeworld at any rate.
BlaxicanX wrote: Without Space Marines the Imperium wouldn't exist.
This is true. While I won't dive into the argument of Guard VS SM, which one is most useful (I am staying out of that mud-filled hole, thank you very much!) fact is Imperium would not survive without either.
Unit1126PLL wrote: What role do the Space Marines perform that the IN or IG could not possibly take over if the SM disappeared?
Well, considering the SM are usually brought in when the Guard simply aren't enough... I would say quite a lot. Remember, there are billions/trillions of guardsmen, but there is still a chronic manpower shortage galaxy-wide.
Unit1126PLL wrote: What role do the Space Marines perform that the IN or IG could not possibly take over if the SM disappeared?
Well, considering the SM are usually brought in when the Guard simply aren't enough... I would say quite a lot. Remember, there are billions/trillions of guardsmen, but there is still a chronic manpower shortage galaxy-wide.
You mean the SM show up, oftentimes when they're unneeded. Marines are never "brought in" anywhere, they have their own command structure independent from the Guard. Just randomly showing up places on a whim (oftentimes for objectives independent of saving the planet in question) is hardly something the Guard couldn't take over.
Besides, the Space Marines take so many resources to create and maintain that the Guard regiments you could raise by disbanding them would more than make up for any loss of combat strength.
Psienesis wrote: There is nothing the Space Marines do in M41 that the Imperial Guard/Imperial Navy could not do with more bodies or the right equipment.
o rly?
How about... not take a year to reach the battlefield.
What I like about CSM is that generally in their stories they need to rely on humans a lot to get anything done. Which is an aspect I really like like they don't take whole planets with a squad etc. Reading some chaos novels and audio drama's its humans who make the bulk of the force of the CSM with some summoned daemons on the side. I mean abbadon uses humans a lot considering he was taking penal worlds to add them to his army.
If you guys read Wrath of Iron, i thought they did a commendable job of showing the Iron hands as elite shock troops, taking on enemies and hardpoints humans couldn't
(Attacking and opening gaps in a defensive line, using humans as a distraction to open the initial breach in a hive's defenses ect...)
The titans and humans do the majority of the major work however
Psienesis wrote: There is nothing the Space Marines do in M41 that the Imperial Guard/Imperial Navy could not do with more bodies or the right equipment.
o rly?
How about... not take a year to reach the battlefield.
Hahaha, I win.
This is one of the better reasons for Space Marines. They don't need to wait for 6 months of paperwork before begining their attack.
Psienesis wrote: There is nothing the Space Marines do in M41 that the Imperial Guard/Imperial Navy could not do with more bodies or the right equipment.
o rly?
How about... not take a year to reach the battlefield.
Hahaha, I win.
Do the laws of physics (and the Warp) somehow change for Space Marines? No, no they do not.
Space Marines as a "rapid reaction force" only applies to those Chapters, like the Death Spectres, who are stationed *in* the sharp-end.
It takes the Space Wolves for-freaking-ever to fly from Fenris to anywhere else in the galaxy, because they live on a mid-ring iceball on the western side of the galaxy. If they wanted to go to, say, Ryza, they have a long, long way to fly.
Psienesis wrote: There is nothing the Space Marines do in M41 that the Imperial Guard/Imperial Navy could not do with more bodies or the right equipment.
o rly?
How about... not take a year to reach the battlefield.
Hahaha, I win.
Do the laws of physics (and the Warp) somehow change for Space Marines? No, no they do not.
Space Marines as a "rapid reaction force" only applies to those Chapters, like the Death Spectres, who are stationed *in* the sharp-end.
It takes the Space Wolves for-freaking-ever to fly from Fenris to anywhere else in the galaxy, because they live on a mid-ring iceball on the western side of the galaxy. If they wanted to go to, say, Ryza, they have a long, long way to fly.
That is true, but Guardsmen have that issue as well as awful awful administration.
Was there not a regiment in the IG codex that was wiped out, ordered to a new warzone, and then declared renegade when they never appeared in this warzone?
The space-marine chapters having their own command structure independent of the administratum is a double-edged sword.
On one hand, you get faster reaction times.
On the other, you get the wipeout of an entire regiment of guard by the Iron Hands by accident, and the Dark Angels running off randomly to chase a single man on some other planet, and the Black Templars crusading off into the Ghoul Stars to wipe out dead worlds with no occupants...
Do the laws of physics (and the Warp) somehow change for Space Marines?
Actually, yeah. Grey Knights, for example, are specifically noted to have warp travel technology that allows them to travel through the warp faster than the rest of the Imperium. Bwahaha.
Blaming the Adminstratum for the Guard's incompetence is like blaming the Imperium for the Astartes' lack of numbers. The Guard are slaves of the adminsitratum, so you have to take the bureaucratic inefficiency of it into account when regarding the Guard's limitations.
The only thing that frames a Chapter's response time to a planet in-distress is how long it takes to get there. A guardsman regiment will get there when the administratum realizes a planet is in distress first, sends the request for aid through all the proper channels, assesses the threat-level versus strategic worth of the planet, assembles the agreed upon size of regiment(s) needed, and then sends them to the planet. Each one of those steps can take multiple months.
Hence why it's not at all uncommon for a Guard taskforce to reach a besieged only to find that everything on it has been dead for months.
The Guard are basically the absolute worst defense force in the entire Galaxy.
Do the laws of physics (and the Warp) somehow change for Space Marines?
Actually, yeah. Grey Knights, for example, are specifically noted to have warp travel technology that allows them to travel through the warp faster than the rest of the Imperium. Bwahaha.
Blaming the Adminstratum for the Guard's incompetence is like blaming the Imperium for the Astartes' lack of numbers. The Guard are slaves of the adminsitratum, so you have to take the bureaucratic inefficiency of it into account when regarding the Guard's limitations.
The only thing that frames a Chapter's response time to a planet in-distress is how long it takes to get there. A guardsman regiment will get there when the administratum realizes a planet is in distress first, sends the request for aid through all the proper channels, assesses the threat-level versus strategic worth of the planet, assembles the agreed upon size of regiment(s) needed, and then sends them to the planet. Each one of those steps can take multiple months.
Hence why it's not at all uncommon for a Guard taskforce to reach a besieged only to find that everything on it has been dead for months.
The Guard are basically the absolute worst defense force in the entire Galaxy.
You can tell because the Imperial Guard have never successfully defended any planet in any fluff ever.
Unit1126PLL wrote: What role do the Space Marines perform that the IN or IG could not possibly take over if the SM disappeared?
Well, considering the SM are usually brought in when the Guard simply aren't enough... I would say quite a lot. Remember, there are billions/trillions of guardsmen, but there is still a chronic manpower shortage galaxy-wide.
You mean the SM show up, oftentimes when they're unneeded. Marines are never "brought in" anywhere, they have their own command structure independent from the Guard. Just randomly showing up places on a whim (oftentimes for objectives independent of saving the planet in question) is hardly something the Guard couldn't take over.
No, I mean brought in. While the Marines are independent, they are still brought in by the Guard/Planetary Governor/Inquisition/whathaveyou (via polite request with a pretty please and a cherry on top) when the Guard simply isn't enough to complete the task. The only Marines who really just 'show up' to do their own thing and then leave are the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven chapters.
Besides, the Space Marines take so many resources to create and maintain that the Guard regiments you could raise by disbanding them would more than make up for any loss of combat strength.
Doubt that. Consider again what I said, there are billions/trillions of guardsmen, now consider there are many more trillions/quadrillions of humans in the galaxy. Now consider there are theoretically approximately 1 million Marines. I don't remember the ratio of recruits required per marine trained, but assume its 50:1, and assume you're training 100,000 new Marines a year (number pulled out of my ass, that would represent a 10% yearly turnover, which I think is very, very high but it works for the purposes of the point I am making), you're talking about 5 million recruits. Assume we eliminate the Marines, and those 5 million recruits go into the Guard... what could 5 million additional guardsmen do in a force that is already BILLIONS or TRILLIONS strong? Remember that the Guard sees a MUCH higher turnover rate than the Marines. We're talking annual losses (and thus additional recruitment) well in excess of, and many times greater than, the entire body of Space Marines in existence, and thus you're talking about an impact that is absolutely negligible upon the Guard as a whole if you were to 'disband the Marines'. And let that help put it into perspective for you as to how capable a Marine must be, if an organization of billions or trillions requires the help of a mere 1 million to handle the toughest situations.
And again, that assumes an annual 10% turnover in Space Marines, which, again, is probably way too damned high.
Propaganda ends when it's not an in-universe explanation. When it's pure game mechanics, providing numbers, dice, tables and charts, all the things that form the "crunch" of a game.
Psienesis wrote: Propaganda ends when it's not an in-universe explanation. When it's pure game mechanics, providing numbers, dice, tables and charts, all the things that form the "crunch" of a game.
Well that doesn't provide a whole lot of anything. Crunch doesn't tell you how many Space Marines there are in the galaxy, or that there's actually an Emperor somewhere. Crunch would have you believe that artillery can can only shoot a few hundred meters, that a man can run about as half as fast as a motorbike and that the whole galaxy works on a ten point system.
Psienesis wrote: There is nothing the Space Marines do in M41 that the Imperial Guard/Imperial Navy could not do with more bodies or the right equipment.
o rly?
How about... not take a year to reach the battlefield.
Hahaha, I win.
Well, but you show them their "chapter Achilles heel" and they will run like dogs after ball.
Case study I:
IG Guardsman A (cultist in disguise) : "Hey, Sammael, I saw some guy in hood with two guns over there, running away"
Sammy: "Brothers, regroup, disengage, follow meeeee!!!"
IG Guardsman B: "But we are slaughtered...aaaargh..."
IG Guardsman A: "Just as planned"
Sammy: "Where is he, where is he? Maybe behind that huge mountain on horizon! Forward!"
Case study II:
Guy in still wet yellow power armor: "Hey, man, did you see that awesome fortress?"
Imperial Fists assault leader: "Fortress? I dont know, we should attack the traitors' den over there..."
Guy in still wet yellow power armor: "C'mon, she has two huge bastions..."
Imperial Fists assault leader: "Oh...huge you say? And...and...moat?"
Guy in still wet yellow power armor: "Oh yes, such solid, inviting moat"
Imperial Fists assault leader: "Well, I guess traitors wont run anywhere. Hey, guys, what about some bastions!"
Completely yellow Astartes squad "YAAAAAY!"
Guy in still wet yellow power armor: "Just as planned"
Psienesis wrote: Propaganda ends when it's not an in-universe explanation. When it's pure game mechanics, providing numbers, dice, tables and charts, all the things that form the "crunch" of a game.
Well that doesn't provide a whole lot of anything. Crunch doesn't tell you how many Space Marines there are in the galaxy, or that there's actually an Emperor somewhere. Crunch would have you believe that artillery can can only shoot a few hundred meters, that a man can run about as half as fast as a motorbike and that the whole galaxy works on a ten point system.
Not if you understand that the game mechanics represent the scale of a table-top game, not a presentation of real-life. I can't believe that I have to explain this.
Propaganda: "Power Armor is unbeatable!"
Reality: "SM passes its Armor Save about 2/3s of the time"
Power armor is great armor. But it isn't a perfect, impenetrable defense. So, much like IRL, there's still places where a weapon can get through it, even if it doesn't have the raw power to punch through the heaviest part of the armor.
Carapace simultaneously has less coverage and yet also is made of slightly less strong material; flak armor typically has less coverage than that, and is made of far simpler materials as well.
Psienesis wrote: Propaganda ends when it's not an in-universe explanation. When it's pure game mechanics, providing numbers, dice, tables and charts, all the things that form the "crunch" of a game.
Well that doesn't provide a whole lot of anything. Crunch doesn't tell you how many Space Marines there are in the galaxy, or that there's actually an Emperor somewhere. Crunch would have you believe that artillery can can only shoot a few hundred meters, that a man can run about as half as fast as a motorbike and that the whole galaxy works on a ten point system.
Not if you understand that the game mechanics represent the scale of a table-top game, not a presentation of real-life. I can't believe that I have to explain this.
Propaganda: "Power Armor is unbeatable!"
Reality: "SM passes its Armor Save about 2/3s of the time"
Or, the actual possibility that game balance =/= fluff?
'Hey, trooper Bernfeldt! I just read the news, did you know that you can walk and fire your Heavy Bolter now?'
'What? That's amazing, Sergeant!'
There's a reason we never read about unkillable Screamerstars in fluff that are ten times stronger than any other Daemon unit.
Or pretty much any Daemon units at all, for that part! They tend to be organised in other ways, if at all.
Because fluff varies. Either you buy into the bolterporn, and Space Marines can, indeed, use 5 dudes to conquer a planet... or you don't, and ten regular humans in flak armor with lasguns can wipe out a squad of Space Marines suffering 0 casualties.
Psienesis wrote: Because fluff varies. Either you buy into the bolterporn, and Space Marines can, indeed, use 5 dudes to conquer a planet... or you don't, and ten regular humans in flak armor with lasguns can wipe out a squad of Space Marines suffering 0 casualties.
I agree they should go back to a more specialized role, unless their numbers are expanded. The idea that 100 Space Marines can take even an area the size of Connecticut is laughable, I don't care how "elite" they are. Nevermind having that number conquer entire planets on a regular basis.
The Legiones Astartes sizes just scratched the surface of necessary Marine numbers for system-wide conquests given Marine capabilities.
Harriticus wrote: I agree they should go back to a more specialized role, unless their numbers are expanded. The idea that 100 Space Marines can take even an area the size of Connecticut is laughable, I don't care how "elite" they are. Nevermind having that number conquer entire planets on a regular basis.
The Legiones Astartes sizes just scratched the surface of necessary Marine numbers for system-wide conquests given Marine capabilities.
Can you give me a source on your last sentence? I have not read that before.
According to the 2nd Ed IG codex, IG response times can vary between 30 days to 175 days, with around 90 days being the average. Sector governors (not planetary governors) have authority to dispatch IG forces to warzones within their own territory. The IG doesn't have to wait for word to reach Terra before the Administratum does something, the system is set up so that the planets can defend themselves without help from the outside; and they get help from the rest of the sector when they can't defend themselves. It is extremely rare for IG regiments (or even SM chapters) to get involved in a war in a different sector from their base of operations (Armageddon was one of these rare wars where everybody showed up). The average recruiting radius for IG regiments is 10,000 light years around the warzone they are intended to fight in, which in 40K distances is pretty small. These massive warp transit times people seem to throw around exist only in the fevered minds of the fans. Sure, one or two IG regiments have been delayed by years or decades in the warp, but they are the very small minority and in no way represent the average result of warp travel. If the IG was so slow to respond to every crisis that most of the planets they get sent to end up wiped out before they arrive, there would be no point in having the IG, since there would be nothing for them to defend.
Silverthorne wrote: a bunch of virgin monks polishing each other's holy bolters.
Emperor preserve me, I had entirely inaproriate thoughts when I read this. I am not so sure they are 'virgin' monks...
On topic: I am happy with the SM as they are now. However, it would be great if the other factions would get some more showtime.
Yeah, I really like the idea of the Eldar and their development as a civilization, but there's a really annoying lack of superb Eldar novels. The Night Lords got their Talos Trilogy, now the Eldar need some of that love, and not by C.S. Goto, because who the hell reads rape fics? Everything I've heard about Goto just pretty much has him coming off as some Eldar hater who always ensures they suffer the most gory, disgusting deaths possible, which isn't really good when you're writing for that race.
On the to-do list for the BL, or at least should-
1) More Eldar. And actually good works here. Getting good authors who volunteer for it and are not forcibly commissioned would likely be a good idea. And don't let it go out of bloody print this time!
2) Grey Knights are young and could use some development. And a major grabbing of the steering wheel to prevent them from driving permanently off into Suedom. Their origin's awesome from them being the descendants of loyalists from the Traitor Legions, don't foul up their creation and let them be riddled with Kaldor Draigos.
3) More good CSM work that isn't on the Iron Warriors or Night Lords would be great. Maybe develop the Alpha Legion post-heresy (without silliness currently in the fluff), or start an interesting new series on a bunch of CSM pirates, maybe a squad working under the Red Corsairs. Can't go wrong with Astartes pirates in space.
4) More on the Lost and the Damned, IG Storm Troopers, hell, maybe even give us a story about a simple civilian in the IOM. Develop the Imperium as a civilization from the ground up. Develop The Lost and the Damned and the way CSM's work in the society, just buildup the civilization on the worshipers of Chaos.
5) Outsource. Your pool of good writers is pretty good (even if they have their collection of misteps), but get more people in on W40K. Have Peter Watts write a story about the Adeptus Mechanicus through the eyes of a younger Techpriest. Commission a W40K Imperial Guard comic or Inquisition comic from Mike Mignola. Start making W40K comics (that hopefully aren't horrendously overpriced) and continuing series. W40K works well in a comic format.
6) Ditch your stupid attempts at manipulating the New York Times bestseller list by printing a limited amount of copies. It's stupid. Everyong thinks its stupid. It reduces sales in the long run and encourages people to pirate it. You'll also notice nobody else (sane) practices it. Why? BECAUSE IT'S STUPID.
Yeah, the DE are hard to catch for IG, but Craftworlds are big and do take a while to move through realspace. They don't suddenly appear in satellite orbit over your planet and Falcon tank you to death; they show up on the periphery of your system and you hope your early warning grid detects them in time to assess if their intent is hostile or not. You mobilize your PDF regardless, and if they seem hostile (shooting passing ships, etc) you send for an IG regiment, and hope one is available. Outer system to inner planet can take weeks, so you hope you get one of those 30 day Ig response times, and if not, your PDF is supposed to be able to hold out until the IG does show up... hopefully before day 176.
squidhills wrote: Yeah, the DE are hard to catch for IG, but Craftworlds are big and do take a while to move through realspace. They don't suddenly appear in satellite orbit over your planet and Falcon tank you to death; they show up on the periphery of your system and you hope your early warning grid detects them in time to assess if their intent is hostile or not. You mobilize your PDF regardless, and if they seem hostile (shooting passing ships, etc) you send for an IG regiment, and hope one is available. Outer system to inner planet can take weeks, so you hope you get one of those 30 day Ig response times, and if not, your PDF is supposed to be able to hold out until the IG does show up... hopefully before day 176.
To my knowledge, Eldar never actually risk attacking directly with their Craftworlds, rather sending out smaller spaceships from it, naturally holofielded in the usual Eldar way.
In Nightbringer a Dark Eldar ship was able to masquerade as an Imperial ship and easily avoided detection until a suspicious dude checked if that really could be said Imperial ship... At which point the Dark Eldar ship threw off its disguise and opened fire anyway.
Psienesis wrote: Propaganda ends when it's not an in-universe explanation. When it's pure game mechanics, providing numbers, dice, tables and charts, all the things that form the "crunch" of a game.
Well that doesn't provide a whole lot of anything. Crunch doesn't tell you how many Space Marines there are in the galaxy, or that there's actually an Emperor somewhere. Crunch would have you believe that artillery can can only shoot a few hundred meters, that a man can run about as half as fast as a motorbike and that the whole galaxy works on a ten point system.
Not if you understand that the game mechanics represent the scale of a table-top game, not a presentation of real-life. I can't believe that I have to explain this.
Propaganda: "Power Armor is unbeatable!"
Reality: "SM passes its Armor Save about 2/3s of the time"
Only if you really believe that high rate of fire weapons only fire a small handful of rounds in a given timeframe that should (theoretically) span several minutes. The way I like to think of it, is that the number of shots fired is representative of a fraction of the shots actually fired, specifically it is representative of those shots that present the best chance of hitting/wounding/penetrating the targets armor, meaning that the 2/3rds that we see is really only considering those shots that didn't harmlessly bounce off the target entirely, because even though you might have only rolled 10 dice, there were actually HUNDREDS of additional shots fired at said marine, many of which hit but had no chance of actually doing anything.
Psienesis wrote: Because fluff varies. Either you buy into the bolterporn, and Space Marines can, indeed, use 5 dudes to conquer a planet... or you don't, and ten regular humans in flak armor with lasguns can wipe out a squad of Space Marines suffering 0 casualties.
Except there are different games workshop games where space marines work differently... Inquisitor marines pretty much stand up to their fluff... Or is that propaghanda also?
What about 'fluff' where marines stand up to their reputation, yet still get trounced, the short story about the Lamenters being wiped out by Tyranids for example.
The tabletop has no real correlation to the setting, and just apply physics to it also, inch thick hard as nails powered personal armour is not going to get taken down by conventional bullets very easily unless it's a good shot in a weak point, and since autoguns are the equivilant of lasguns, then lasguns are not up to the job either.
The fluff is more believable than the tabletop application, as I don.t personally believe that guardsman can take down a 10ft 500kg daemon prince with combat knives and fists.
Sorry mate, I dont think that quarter of planet thinking that Earth is flat will make it Discworld. Although it would be cool!
Wyzilla wrote: In the end, it does not matter at all what the fans want. Unless they boycott it for changes, GW pushes what it wants in the fluff.
On the contrary, I cant remember how many times I've read and hear "Forge your narrative" in GW materials Oh and I would love GW to actually push fluff forward.
But to be honest, serious and not smartfeth. WH40K fluff is full of holes and layers of bizzare plot armor. HH is best example why is better not to dwell into mythological age. With such scale of inconsistency people will simply work their own narrative even without tabletop. There is some solid ground around which fluff grows, but there is so many empty patches. It comes to personal interpretation and, without chance to avoid it, some roleplay in discussion For example, Peregrine and me looks at the vast IoM and by simple match we cant see even remotely how could all chapters cover even half of the planets with effective force. And when you have some bigger army of SM (lets say about in numbers of few IG platoons), we see there isnt anything better than simply slaughter them by WMD or simply bury them in mere cultist bodies. Thousand, even hundred of thousands of bodies...still worth of taking huge chunk of chapter.
So, discussion with you about Astartes role is for me... interesting and fun. Because its two different (and natural) personal universes where we forged each own narrative. And I dont like leaning heavily on Black Library as facts, because for example HH is sometimes inconsistent in (for me) crucial parts of fluff, like Curze and his sometimes transfromation from interesting tragic antihero into evily evil villain. And of course, because this is, partly, for me really subsoncious roleplay from rather IG/ SoB/ logistics POV, I dont like sending people to different forums where their opinions doesnt stand in opposition to yours.
Eh...and sorry for my english, I know when writing long posts, my english begins to transform into czech...liguistic Tzeentch probably...
Nah, the post is perfectly readable. Don't worry about it.
Well as already pointed out, a WMD is unlikely to even wipe out a platoon of real soldiers in an urban setting- let alone guys wearing power armor that no-sells lasgun shots and can even tank a shot from a lasgun with their bare skin. A nuke would be unlikely to even kill the majority of them, and multiple lance strikes would defeat the purpose of why the IOM throws the IG around suicidally- they're rather a billion men die than lose a single planet, as planets are more or less permanent objects that don't go away unless you use a lot of dakka. Humans are replaceable, and they'll be able to replace men lost in a regiment, even the full regiment, nearly instantly- it's only the equipment that requires use of resources. The Imperium will never call down a lance strike on a rogue group of Astartes deployed- they'll drown them in millions of men where for each man that falls, two more step forward. Even without fleet support, a chapter of astartes would (and IIRC, have numerous time), solo'd regiment-sized groups of human enemies. The Astartes are better armed, armored, and outfitted with better vehicles. It's like America smacking around a third world nation twice its size in a straight fight, only the combined arms used have power armor that renders the main weapon their enemies use harmless. Now if the regiment had the same weapons as Astartes fully equipped throughout their ranks, were all wearing ceramite breastplates, and augmented so they were slightly stronger, they'd hit Astartes hard and they'd be slightly weaker near equal foe numbering in the millions. The reason however why Astartes will slap them and punt them with relative ease however is because of the Guard being a third world country armed with sticks for weapons, with the occasional solider actually having a modern firearm fighting a space-age first world nation's army.
While the guard can drown Astartes in numbers, the problem is that they're pretty much fighting an enemy circa the Dark Age of Technology/Great Crusade tech while they're armed with the watered-down cheapo reproductions or even fully lack large chunks of their technology.
What is bears a lot of similarity to is again, Knights. Sure, the peasant army could kill them, but they've got wooden spears and maybe a sword for every ten guys and some archers. Meanwhile, the Knights are wearing full gothic plate, the best armor the kingdom can afford, are using the best weapons the kingdom could afford, mounted on the best horses the kingdom could breed, having the best training the kingdom could afford, veterans of the largest battles the kingdom has participated in, and have the high ground. It's going to be a bloody slaughter, because the peasants could kill the knights in shear numbers, but they'd take horrendous casualties if they managed to rally for a charge, and the knights have the best everything the kingdom could afford, while the peasants at best have a cotton vest. And they're probably just going to break morale and run for it after they get butchered with stupid ease rather than make a stand and attempt to drown them with bodies and blood.
It's also another reason why I like W40K. It's a bit of a parallel to previous historical combat in the arms' race between armor and weapons. Currently, combat horrendously favors the guy in stupidly huge power armor as it eats energy weapons and ballistic weapons harmlessly ping off it. Sure, there are some weapons that beat it like plasma, but those are in limited supply thanks to the Imperium's production of technology being horribly constricted. AND, the Astates are the favorite son of the IOM. They'll get the best everything thanks to some Chapters even being best friends with the Admech. The Imperial Guard? Red-headed kid. Hated by the IOM and given the worst gear available unless the special guard regiment has connections and told to work with it. The fact that the guard does manage to hold off against enemies like Archenemy is nothing short of bloody amazing, as the Astartes and Admech take all the best technology and don't like to share. The guard meanwhile survives (and with some regiments, flourishes), and holds it own against some of the greatest enemies of the IOM with what's equal to a stick compared to all the other weapons in the galaxy used by the IOM and other factions. Even their special weapons such as plasma guns and bolters are crappier variants that the special branches of the IOM get to use with the Adeptus Astartes using the good variants.
Psienesis wrote: Because fluff varies. Either you buy into the bolterporn, and Space Marines can, indeed, use 5 dudes to conquer a planet... or you don't, and ten regular humans in flak armor with lasguns can wipe out a squad of Space Marines suffering 0 casualties.
Except there are different games workshop games where space marines work differently... Inquisitor marines pretty much stand up to their fluff... Or is that propaghanda also?
What about 'fluff' where marines stand up to their reputation, yet still get trounced, the short story about the Lamenters being wiped out by Tyranids for example.
The tabletop has no real correlation to the setting, and just apply physics to it also, inch thick hard as nails powered personal armour is not going to get taken down by conventional bullets very easily unless it's a good shot in a weak point, and since autoguns are the equivilant of lasguns, then lasguns are not up to the job either.
The fluff is more believable than the tabletop application, as I don.t personally believe that guardsman can take down a 10ft 500kg daemon prince with combat knives and fists.
From Codex: Angels of Death:
The most important element in the construction of a suit of Space Marine power armour is the large ceramite armour plates, which provide the main form of protection against enemy attack. Individual plates of armour can be up to an inch thick, and have a special "honeycomb" design which helps to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st Millenium.
It's also another reason why I like W40K. It's a bit of a parallel to previous historical combat in the arms' race between armor and weapons. Currently, combat horrendously favors the guy in stupidly huge power armor as it eats energy weapons and ballistic weapons harmlessly ping off it. Sure, there are some weapons that beat it like plasma, but those are in limited supply thanks to the Imperium's production of technology being horribly constricted. AND, the Astates are the favorite son of the IOM. They'll get the best everything thanks to some Chapters even being best friends with the Admech. The Imperial Guard? Red-headed kid. Hated by the IOM and given the worst gear available unless the special guard regiment has connections and told to work with it. The fact that the guard does manage to hold off against enemies like Archenemy is nothing short of bloody amazing, as the Astartes and Admech take all the best technology and don't like to share. The guard meanwhile survives (and with some regiments, flourishes), and holds it own against some of the greatest enemies of the IOM with what's equal to a stick compared to all the other weapons in the galaxy used by the IOM and other factions. Even their special weapons such as plasma guns and bolters are crappier variants that the special branches of the IOM get to use with the Adeptus Astartes using the good variants.
I can't exalt this enough. It is the thing I like the very most with Guardsmen, actually. They have many things, so many things going against them, and yet they fight, and in many battles, finally win. It makes them relatable. I love that aspect of Guardsmen, really do. They are a contrast to the Marines, who really are at the other side of the spectrum.
And Psienesis, is that quote not rather old by now? Other things from that era is terribly outdated and retconned, to my knowledge. Fluff sort of loses relevance when it starts to get old.
To my knowledge, Eldar never actually risk attacking directly with their Craftworlds, rather sending out smaller spaceships from it, naturally holofielded in the usual Eldar way.
In Nightbringer a Dark Eldar ship was able to masquerade as an Imperial ship and easily avoided detection until a suspicious dude checked if that really could be said Imperial ship... At which point the Dark Eldar ship threw off its disguise and opened fire anyway.
Yes, Craftworlds usually send out smaller ships, but the fluff is full of mentions of "Craftworld such and such was spotted lurking on the edges of X system" which means that if you detect them early enough, you should have time to muster some kind of response. DE (and Necrons) seem to be the ones who just suddenly show up over your head and ruin your day. Against those two factions, I don't see anyone, IG or SM, responding quickly enough to get anything done before the planet gets all exploderized.
Exploderized. It's a word.
But in most other instances, Ork fleets, space hulks, Chaos warbands, etc... a planet would have plenty of time to call in support and the IG would have plenty of time to get there before the planet gets wiped out (again, 30 days at best-- 90 on average). Of course, no matter how quickly the IG arrives it will be too late to save the PDF, who will all be killed to a man.
It depends on how much plot armour the Marines have. If it is Calgar and friends, I don't doubt that they would be able to respond in time to an Eldar attack.
And Psienesis, is that quote not rather old by now? Other things from that era is terribly outdated and retconned, to my knowledge. Fluff sort of loses relevance when it starts to get old.
Is there a Codex or other GW publication that states that PA is now higher than 85% effective?
If not, then, no, it's not out-dated.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: It depends on how much plot armour the Marines have. If it is Calgar and friends, I don't doubt that they would be able to respond in time to an Eldar attack.
Depends. I'd be alright with any chapter using a Librarian to foresee the attack, but anyone lacking librarians would just be blatant favoritism.
(More of the BL should have Astartes better using their resources. Seriously, Librarians and Techpriests, invaluable resources to a Chapter.)
And Psienesis, is that quote not rather old by now? Other things from that era is terribly outdated and retconned, to my knowledge. Fluff sort of loses relevance when it starts to get old.
Is there a Codex or other GW publication that states that PA is now higher than 85% effective?
If not, then, no, it's not out-dated.
Not explicitly retconned, perhaps, but neither is many of the, say, RT era stuff that is completely out of place and obviously outdated in the current setting, yet has never been explicitly overwritten.
Given that C:AoD is 18 years old now, I would take any of its contents with a pinch of salt.
Nothing else has changed to suggest otherwise, other than the presence of more bolterporn... but bolterporn is not the end-all, be-all of Black Library publications either, and features plenty of books with Marines being beaten to death by cultists wielding rocks and sticks. PA simply isn't as badass as people would like to think it is... by extension, neither are the Space Marines.
Psienesis wrote: Nothing else has changed to suggest otherwise, other than the presence of more bolterporn... but bolterporn is not the end-all, be-all of Black Library publications either, and features plenty of books with Marines being beaten to death by cultists wielding rocks and sticks. PA simply isn't as badass as people would like to think it is... by extension, neither are the Space Marines.
Neither is army X. Every army is written off as propaganda-ishly better than they supposedly are.
1-1 is 0.
346598265952 minus 346598265952 is also 0.
Reduce the power of everyone equally and the balance remains identical.
Of course, if you'd argue that Marines are weaker compared to their fluff portrayal in even greater proportion than whatever other race/s you mean come off better, then that is another thing entirely and something that I doubt you will find as easy to prove.
So... If you argue Marines should be subtracted more than another races (To use a clunky simplification), then... Sure.
But nobody has any real reason beyond personal preference to do, or indeed not to do, the same.
I have yet to find any official sources that proclaim Adeptus Astartes as weaker than their popular portrayal, anyway, at least not more than the other races.
Of course, if you'd argue that Marines are weaker compared to their fluff portrayal in even greater proportion than whatever other race/s you mean come off better, then that is another thing entirely and something that I doubt you will find as easy to prove.
The Tau and the Eldar are both performing far above their descriptions and presentations in non-Codex fluff.
Psienesis wrote: Propaganda ends when it's not an in-universe explanation. When it's pure game mechanics, providing numbers, dice, tables and charts, all the things that form the "crunch" of a game.
Well that doesn't provide a whole lot of anything. Crunch doesn't tell you how many Space Marines there are in the galaxy, or that there's actually an Emperor somewhere. Crunch would have you believe that artillery can can only shoot a few hundred meters, that a man can run about as half as fast as a motorbike and that the whole galaxy works on a ten point system.
Not if you understand that the game mechanics represent the scale of a table-top game, not a presentation of real-life. I can't believe that I have to explain this.
Exactly, the table-top represents the table-top game, it's not a good representation of what's real, so why use it to tell yourself about the universe? The scale is wrong, the stats are not broad enough and rules and power fluctuate from book to book, just like the fluff.
Besides that the crunch still doesn't cover a fraction of it all, it will never tell you how many worlds are in the Imperium, for that you've got to go to fluff but since it's all propaganda there's no real universe to discus.
The wildly-variable fluff pertaining to SM, then, cannot possibly be true. The best one can say would be whatever puts them squarely in the middle of the two extremes... which would be elite soldiers with high-grade hardware, but incapable of taking an entire militarized planet with 5 guys and no support.
What do you need to do to take a world? You kill all its defenders, or you take out its leadership and look to get the bulkof the enemy forces degraded to the point you can move about at will. Talking out local industrial targets will also assist. As marines can effectively strike at will, all they need to do is drop into the key targets and turn them to dust and its likely the enemy becomes combat ineffective, certainly against Marinelike targets. For an agri-world with limited armed forces and probably only 1 or 2 major cities, a squad of marines is probably all it takes to cream the enemy leadership and break a couple of strongholds to the point where Imperial sympathisers can come to the fore and take over again.
Peregrine wrote: [No evidence, other than understanding the scale of the setting. The universe is too big and there are too few space marines for them to be relevant. Even looking at just a single planet you end up with ridiculous situations like a chapter being spread so thinly over a continent that each space marine is miles away from his closest fellow marine. The only sensible way to interpret the fluff is that the most dramatic tales of space marine battles (for example, taking whole planets with a single squad) are nothing more than propaganda and religious devotion, and in reality space marines are roughly equivalent to what we see on the tabletop: decent elite infantry that die like any other infantry against heavy weapons.
This is my interpretation as well. In the fluff most stories would consider 100 Space Marines to be a pretty significant force, but if you think about it plainly it just makes no sense. Lets say the US was infested by Tyranids, and 100 Marines drop. That's 2 marines per state. How much ammunition could they possibly carry, each? I know "it's make believe, it doesn't have to make sense" is the most likely argument but there needs to be at least some basis in reality, or you can't suspend disbelief.
Also, as Melissia has said, most Space Marine fluff is incredibly boring, so that doesn't help.
You can make that assertion all you want, but it is false. There is no difference between an insurgent blowing up a Space Marine and one blowing up a US Marine, except possibly the size of the explosive charge used.
Melissia wrote: They're attacking far more advanced, far more hostile worlds, with billions of people that oppose the strange, inhuman invaders.
The comparison still fits. A demo charge exploded under a Space Marine's foot will still kill him as much as it will kill a human.
They'll probably survive that unless it's meant to be anti-vehicular and not infantry or plasma based. But mines are unlikely to be effective at all unless it's a remotely detonated explosive.
Not to mention that traps don't even work on Astartes. Mines don't work well against Astates unless you line the floor of your throne-room with them, as Astartes don't have to hike through defenses. They just drop in right in the middle of them, be it from orbit or aircraft. Either that or they take a direct route to the capital by making their own doors through your walls.
Also depends on the fortress as well. A squad would likely ROFLStomp one of an argiworld made by normal humans, but be slaughtered by a fortress made by Iron Warriors as the floor opens up into a pit of mono-wires, explosives powerful enough to level a city block, etc.
Not according to the stats for demo charges in tabletop.
Or Dark Heresy for that matter.
Wyzilla wrote: Not to mention that traps don't even work on Astartes. Mines don't work well against Astates unless you line the floor of your throne-room with them, as Astartes don't have to hike through defenses.
You don't know what insurgents even ARE, do you?
THIS is what comparing apples and oranges looks like.
Not according to the stats for demo charges in tabletop.
Or Dark Heresy for that matter.
Oh yeah, those they won't. But there's a big difference between a demo charge packed to kill infantry and one to kill Astartes- involving multiple factors including payload, detonation speed, placement, and explosive shaping. Or if it's plasma, which will leave the Astartes wondering where his legs went.
Also, there aren't really insurgents in W40K besides terrorists. Astartes aren't a police force like the American military's actions in the Middle East. They're only sent to bash faces in when the insurgents have taken over (and presumably in cahoots with Chaos, because you almost never see non-chas rebels). It's the Guard's job to police it, the Astartes just drop in, kill the leadership and/or blow up their HQ, communications, etc, then leave again to let the IG handle it. I don't think we've ever seen Astartes actually occupy a territory putting down insurgents.
Wyzilla wrote: Oh yeah, those they won't. But there's a big difference between a demo charge packed to kill infantry and one to kill Astartes
Irrelevant. They will do whatever it takes to remove the invaders from their planet.
Wyzilla wrote: Also, there aren't really insurgents in W40K
Except when there are, which is all the time, and that is something the PDFs, Imperial Guard, Arbites, and Inquisition deal with rather consistently, to the point of it being a mundane thing for them.
The Astartes don't deal with it because they can't. They don't have the skills or the manpower for it.
Wyzilla wrote: Oh yeah, those they won't. But there's a big difference between a demo charge packed to kill infantry and one to kill Astartes
Irrelevant. They will do whatever it takes to remove the invaders from their planet.
Wyzilla wrote: Also, there aren't really insurgents in W40K
Except when there are, which is all the time, and that is something the PDFs, Imperial Guard, Arbites, and Inquisition deal with rather consistently, to the point of it being a mundane thing for them.
The Astartes don't deal with it because they can't. They don't have the skills or the manpower for it.
Yes, because they're an offensive force best tasked with killing and defense by bolstering IG lines in the Eye of Terror. IIRC, one of the reasons why the Iron Warriors went traitor actually was the Imperium using them to garrison worlds, which is a job nearly all astartes loath and better apply themselves to constant warfare.
Space Marines are better compared to the allies in the Gulf War. They come in and smash the enemy to pieces, then leave. The IG are then the future Allied forces occupying the Middle East, as Space Marines will flatly refuse to garrison a world and occupy it, considering it a rightful waste of their abilities and them craving warfare. At best they might drop off a squad to help out IG forces dealing with insurgents increasing in size and gaining territory, but otherwise they couldn't care less and will only intervene with force if the insurgents become a powerful faction.
Wyzilla wrote: IIRC, one of the reasons why the Iron Warriors went traitor actually was the Imperium using them to garrison worlds
And then they immediately were used for world garrisons by Horus, proving that they were screwed no matter what they did.
If Space Marines cannot occupy a world they cannot conquer it. If the white house was bombed, that wouldn't count as having conquered the United States. Really, that'd probably do us a lot of good at this point.
Wyzilla wrote: IIRC, one of the reasons why the Iron Warriors went traitor actually was the Imperium using them to garrison worlds
And then they immediately were used for world garrisons by Horus, proving that they were screwed no matter what they did.
If Space Marines cannot occupy a world they cannot conquer it. If the white house was bombed, that wouldn't count as having conquered the United States. Really, that'd probably do us a lot of good at this point.
No, but dropping into the White House, Pentagon, Supreme Court, Capitol, and hitting all nearby military bases while also attacking nuke sites to launch strikes on Russia and China while communications are brought down as other teams are also launched to bring down the Power Grid. The difference is that unlike modern countries, Hive Worlds cluster all their critical targets in the Hive City.
You can make that assertion all you want, but it is false. There is no difference between an insurgent blowing up a Space Marine and one blowing up a US Marine, except possibly the size of the explosive charge used.
Strawman. I never mentioned explosives. You were comparing US invading Iraq and Afghanistan to Marines invading a planet. I said those two were very different, and not necessarily in the proportions you think.
Stop making up things and telling me I've said them.
Thank you.
Also, there is no difference between an insurgent blowing up a couple of gretchin or an Imperator Titan.
Except possibly the size of the explosive charge used.
You can make that assertion all you want, but it is false. There is no difference between an insurgent blowing up a Space Marine and one blowing up a US Marine, except possibly the size of the explosive charge used.
Strawman. I never mentioned explosives. You were comparing US invading Iraq and Afghanistan to Marines invading a planet. I said those two were very different, and not necessarily in the proportions you think.
Stop making up things and telling me I've said them.
Thank you.
Also, there is no difference between an insurgent blowing up a couple of gretchin or an Imperator Titan.
Except possibly the size of the explosive charge used.
=)
That last bit made me laugh.
While i think the Space Marines need more explaining i think they are a devestating force. As much as i hate them. But good points like ammo and so on really just show how flawed the idea is.
For example whats to stop the enemy just waltzing through the huge gaps in marine lines? The loss of a drop pod would be devestating. I doubt a marine would survive that kind of fall. In reality i do think they would have to rely on small hit fast and hard teams but even then they are pretty large even for that kind of thing.
I see them more as an important bolster to the imperial guard. And for doing minor scale (but major) operations to change the course of war.
Wait wait wait, so the Space Marines are attacking what planets again?
Chaos planets are probably hell-bent on resisting the marines - killing the leaders won't suddenly make the cultists go "eh, well, whatever, feth it, we surrender." They'll just go to ground, at worst, and uprise later. At best, they'll fight a long, grinding, war of ambush and attrition (the comparison to Iraq is apt) which is not what Space Marines do at all. So they can't conquer a Chaos world.
An Ork-held world - kill the leader, infighting starts. Fair enough. Except now you have a planet of bloodthirsty techno-barbarian guerillas who get stronger from killing things killing each other. Definitely a world conquered, expect tithe payments by the end of the day.
A Tyranid world - um, what? They're a hive-mind...
Tau - alright, the Space Marines are great against the smallest, weakest empire in the setting. Go Space Marines!
Eldar - don't really have 'worlds' as such - good luck deep-striking into a Craftworld and nailing the Seers.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Wait wait wait, so the Space Marines are attacking what planets again?
Chaos planets are probably hell-bent on resisting the marines - killing the leaders won't suddenly make the cultists go "eh, well, whatever, feth it, we surrender." They'll just go to ground, at worst, and uprise later. At best, they'll fight a long, grinding, war of ambush and attrition (the comparison to Iraq is apt) which is not what Space Marines do at all. So they can't conquer a Chaos world.
An Ork-held world - kill the leader, infighting starts. Fair enough. Except now you have a planet of bloodthirsty techno-barbarian guerillas who get stronger from killing things killing each other. Definitely a world conquered, expect tithe payments by the end of the day.
A Tyranid world - um, what? They're a hive-mind...
Tau - alright, the Space Marines are great against the smallest, weakest empire in the setting. Go Space Marines!
Eldar - don't really have 'worlds' as such - good luck deep-striking into a Craftworld and nailing the Seers.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Wait wait wait, so the Space Marines are attacking what planets again?
Chaos planets are probably hell-bent on resisting the marines - killing the leaders won't suddenly make the cultists go "eh, well, whatever, feth it, we surrender." They'll just go to ground, at worst, and uprise later. At best, they'll fight a long, grinding, war of ambush and attrition (the comparison to Iraq is apt) which is not what Space Marines do at all. So they can't conquer a Chaos world.
An Ork-held world - kill the leader, infighting starts. Fair enough. Except now you have a planet of bloodthirsty techno-barbarian guerillas who get stronger from killing things killing each other. Definitely a world conquered, expect tithe payments by the end of the day.
A Tyranid world - um, what? They're a hive-mind...
Tau - alright, the Space Marines are great against the smallest, weakest empire in the setting. Go Space Marines!
Eldar - don't really have 'worlds' as such - good luck deep-striking into a Craftworld and nailing the Seers.
Dark Eldar - This isn't really even a question, is it...
What other bad guys are there?
Rebellions with Chaos backings by a sorcerer or two, those kinds of things. Or Chaos Cults dependent on Chaos Psykers.
So what would stop the cultists, even after the sorcerers are killed, from going to ground?
You're telling me that Space Marines exist solely to fight against rebellions which are caused by mass planetary mind-control utilized by a psyker who must be one of the most powerful individuals in the known universe (and therefore one of the rarest) in order to accomplish this task?
Wyzilla wrote: Rebellions with Chaos backings by a sorcerer or two, those kinds of things. Or Chaos Cults dependent on Chaos Psykers.
So what you're saying is that while IG/navy forces can conquer pretty much any planet given enough time and resources, space marines are limited to dealing with rebellions/cults/etc which are utterly dependent on a small number of leaders and have no way to replace their chain of command. Remind me again why exactly anyone would bother to send a drop pod full of screaming idiots with chainswords to go fight a duel with the sorcerer when they could just drop a nuke on him from orbit?
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Unit1126PLL wrote: Tau - alright, the Space Marines are great against the smallest, weakest empire in the setting. Go Space Marines!
They probably can't even deal with Tau very well since the Tau have the AA defenses to make a drop pod assault suicide (unless you want to sacrifice a whole chapter to get a single squad to make it to the surface) and the strategic mobility to pack up and leave if the marines are a viable threat to their HQ. So in the end you're left with the mighty warrior heroes of the Imperium finishing off a sacrificial drone squad while the Tau leadership flies off in a Manta.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Wait wait wait, so the Space Marines are attacking what planets again?
Chaos planets are probably hell-bent on resisting the marines - killing the leaders won't suddenly make the cultists go "eh, well, whatever, feth it, we surrender." They'll just go to ground, at worst, and uprise later. At best, they'll fight a long, grinding, war of ambush and attrition (the comparison to Iraq is apt) which is not what Space Marines do at all. So they can't conquer a Chaos world.
An Ork-held world - kill the leader, infighting starts. Fair enough. Except now you have a planet of bloodthirsty techno-barbarian guerillas who get stronger from killing things killing each other. Definitely a world conquered, expect tithe payments by the end of the day.
A Tyranid world - um, what? They're a hive-mind...
Tau - alright, the Space Marines are great against the smallest, weakest empire in the setting. Go Space Marines!
Eldar - don't really have 'worlds' as such - good luck deep-striking into a Craftworld and nailing the Seers.
Dark Eldar - This isn't really even a question, is it...
What other bad guys are there?
Rebellions with Chaos backings by a sorcerer or two, those kinds of things. Or Chaos Cults dependent on Chaos Psykers.
So what would stop the cultists, even after the sorcerers are killed, from going to ground?
You're telling me that Space Marines exist solely to fight against rebellions which are caused by mass planetary mind-control utilized by a psyker who must be one of the most powerful individuals in the known universe (and therefore one of the rarest) in order to accomplish this task?
Derp.
Well, they're the main defense against Chaos, Tyranids, assassinating Warbosses, and Necrons. But the main thing they can solo with little difficulty are those strange Chaos Cultists that rely entirely on Sorcerers and go cuckoo for cooca puffs whenever the sorcerer bites it.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Wait wait wait, so the Space Marines are attacking what planets again?
Chaos planets are probably hell-bent on resisting the marines - killing the leaders won't suddenly make the cultists go "eh, well, whatever, feth it, we surrender." They'll just go to ground, at worst, and uprise later. At best, they'll fight a long, grinding, war of ambush and attrition (the comparison to Iraq is apt) which is not what Space Marines do at all. So they can't conquer a Chaos world.
An Ork-held world - kill the leader, infighting starts. Fair enough. Except now you have a planet of bloodthirsty techno-barbarian guerillas who get stronger from killing things killing each other. Definitely a world conquered, expect tithe payments by the end of the day.
A Tyranid world - um, what? They're a hive-mind...
Tau - alright, the Space Marines are great against the smallest, weakest empire in the setting. Go Space Marines!
Eldar - don't really have 'worlds' as such - good luck deep-striking into a Craftworld and nailing the Seers.
Dark Eldar - This isn't really even a question, is it...
What other bad guys are there?
Rebellions with Chaos backings by a sorcerer or two, those kinds of things. Or Chaos Cults dependent on Chaos Psykers.
So what would stop the cultists, even after the sorcerers are killed, from going to ground?
You're telling me that Space Marines exist solely to fight against rebellions which are caused by mass planetary mind-control utilized by a psyker who must be one of the most powerful individuals in the known universe (and therefore one of the rarest) in order to accomplish this task?
Derp.
Well, they're the main defense against Chaos, Tyranids, assassinating Warbosses, and Necrons. But the main thing they can solo with little difficulty are those strange Chaos Cultists that rely entirely on Sorcerers and go cuckoo for cooca puffs whenever the sorcerer bites it.
They're not the main defense against those things, though. 90% of the Imperium's wars are fought and won by the PDF and the Imperial Guard. Most Imperial Guardsmen have never seen a Space Marine, yet have won several battles.
Wyzilla wrote: Well as already pointed out, a WMD is unlikely to even wipe out a platoon of real soldiers in an urban setting
Yeah, that's just nonsense. A nuke hitting miles away probably wouldn't kill everyone, but infantry at ground zero are just plain dead.
A nuke would be unlikely to even kill the majority of them, and multiple lance strikes would defeat the purpose of why the IOM throws the IG around suicidally- they're rather a billion men die than lose a single planet, as planets are more or less permanent objects that don't go away unless you use a lot of dakka.
Except that doesn't make any sense at all. In the real world we've used ~2000 nukes, many of them in "battlefield" situations, without having any noticeable effect on the planet. Wiping out a space marine squad with a couple tactical nukes is a trade any Imperial commander should be eager to make, especially since so many planets are already useless wastelands outside of the few hive cities.
While the guard can drown Astartes in numbers, the problem is that they're pretty much fighting an enemy circa the Dark Age of Technology/Great Crusade tech while they're armed with the watered-down cheapo reproductions or even fully lack large chunks of their technology.
Except that contradicts what we know about some guard units getting the best stuff, and the fact that they tend to have support from the navy. Even the most pathetic conscripts can still broadcast a "the space marines have arrived" message as they are slaughtered so that the orbiting warships can nuke the whole area until nothing is left.
Sure, there are some weapons that beat it like plasma, but those are in limited supply thanks to the Imperium's production of technology being horribly constricted.
And this is the problem with the scale of the setting: even "rare" weapons for the IG are much more common than space marines. In a typical planet-scale battle there are probably millions of plasma guns/lascannons/etc for every space marine. Eventually, through sheer numbers, the space marines are going to be overwhelmed and killed before they can make any meaningful impact on the war.
AND, the Astates are the favorite son of the IOM.
Which is part of the stupidity of the whole thing. Space marines get all of the best equipment while everyone else is left with garbage, even though there are nowhere near enough space marines to make a difference on the scale of the whole Imperium. And that's despite the proven disloyalty of the space marines, who often care more about settling their own personal vendettas than fighting to save the Imperium.
Sure, there are some weapons that beat it like plasma, but those are in limited supply thanks to the Imperium's production of technology being horribly constricted.
And this is the problem with the scale of the setting: even "rare" weapons for the IG are much more common than space marines. In a typical planet-scale battle there are probably millions of plasma guns/lascannons/etc for every space marine. Eventually, through sheer numbers, the space marines are going to be overwhelmed and killed before they can make any meaningful impact on the war.
AND, the Astates are the favorite son of the IOM.
Which is part of the stupidity of the whole thing. Space marines get all of the best equipment while everyone else is left with garbage, even though there are nowhere near enough space marines to make a difference on the scale of the whole Imperium. And that's despite the proven disloyalty of the space marines, who often care more about settling their own personal vendettas than fighting to save the Imperium.
This basically. There are more Leman Russ main battle tanks in some formations of the Imperial Guard than there are Space Marines.
The reason the Marines are the IOM's favored son is because the IOM is backwards and steeped in tradition; they can't do away with Space Marines for much the same reason the Catholic Church still finds itself protected by Swiss Pikemen.
I would point out, that the sororitas and astartes are, for the most part, the ONLY imperial forces in fluff capable of effectively engaging demons, and the more...horrifying aspects of the 41st and winning.
I'd reference the table top rules for fear, the FFG rules for fear, and various books as well. Most normal, average IG troopers are reduced to shivering, helpless wrecks unless anchored by someone with a stronger will to keep them going, making commisars needed, or a marine to inspire them nearby.
Marines are psycho conditioned to at least ignore it, Sororitas have their faith to anchor them.
Marines have an easier time fighting in less hospitiable environments due to the sealed, andauto-sealing features of their armor, and they can continue to fight through severe injures without much decrease in performance. (Granted, in rare cases, normal men can do this as well)
Marines have never been a take and hold force, they always lose when put into that role without extensive, extensive backup.
As a high powered spec-ops/seek and destroy type unit, i'd say they fit that role well, with a side helping of zealotry and monk-ness.
They are by no means the only reason the imperium stands, and yes, if all the IG fought all the marines, the IG wins 10/10 times, but there are simply jobs the IG isn't fast enough, individually tough enough, or readily tactically flexible enough to easily handle.
Sure, there are some weapons that beat it like plasma, but those are in limited supply thanks to the Imperium's production of technology being horribly constricted.
And this is the problem with the scale of the setting: even "rare" weapons for the IG are much more common than space marines. In a typical planet-scale battle there are probably millions of plasma guns/lascannons/etc for every space marine. Eventually, through sheer numbers, the space marines are going to be overwhelmed and killed before they can make any meaningful impact on the war.
AND, the Astates are the favorite son of the IOM.
Which is part of the stupidity of the whole thing. Space marines get all of the best equipment while everyone else is left with garbage, even though there are nowhere near enough space marines to make a difference on the scale of the whole Imperium. And that's despite the proven disloyalty of the space marines, who often care more about settling their own personal vendettas than fighting to save the Imperium.
This basically. There are more Leman Russ main battle tanks in some formations of the Imperial Guard than there are Space Marines.
The reason the Marines are the IOM's favored son is because the IOM is backwards and steeped in tradition; they can't do away with Space Marines for much the same reason the Catholic Church still finds itself protected by Swiss Pikemen.
Yes, because the guard serve as a great meatshield to push back Orks and Tyranids. However, they're near completely useless against Chaos and more often than not simply end up bolsteirng the ranks of invading CSMs and Daemons. The Astartes and SOB are the only viable defense against Chaos the Imperium has, who without would be dead ten times over from Black Crusades, Blood Crusades, Daemonic incursions, etc. And of course both the Astartes and SOB are immune to Doubtworm, which is a critical resource as doubtworm will simply sweep through an IG regiment with them incapable of doing anything besides committing suicide. Of course, the hilarious downfall is that Astartes are also the main forces of Chaos as well, and many continue to fall to Chaos as more are made, making them a double-edged sword that however is still invaluable in defense against Chaos.
Sure, there are some weapons that beat it like plasma, but those are in limited supply thanks to the Imperium's production of technology being horribly constricted.
And this is the problem with the scale of the setting: even "rare" weapons for the IG are much more common than space marines. In a typical planet-scale battle there are probably millions of plasma guns/lascannons/etc for every space marine. Eventually, through sheer numbers, the space marines are going to be overwhelmed and killed before they can make any meaningful impact on the war.
AND, the Astates are the favorite son of the IOM.
Which is part of the stupidity of the whole thing. Space marines get all of the best equipment while everyone else is left with garbage, even though there are nowhere near enough space marines to make a difference on the scale of the whole Imperium. And that's despite the proven disloyalty of the space marines, who often care more about settling their own personal vendettas than fighting to save the Imperium.
This basically. There are more Leman Russ main battle tanks in some formations of the Imperial Guard than there are Space Marines.
The reason the Marines are the IOM's favored son is because the IOM is backwards and steeped in tradition; they can't do away with Space Marines for much the same reason the Catholic Church still finds itself protected by Swiss Pikemen.
Yes, because the guard serve as a great meatshield to push back Orks and Tyranids. However, they're near completely useless against Chaos and more often than not simply end up bolsteirng the ranks of invading CSMs and Daemons. The Astartes and SOB are the only viable defense against Chaos the Imperium has, who without would be dead ten times over from Black Crusades, Blood Crusades, Daemonic incursions, etc. And of course both the Astartes and SOB are immune to Doubtworm, which is a critical resource as doubtworm will simply sweep through an IG regiment with them incapable of doing anything besides committing suicide. Of course, the hilarious downfall is that Astartes are also the main forces of Chaos as well, and many continue to fall to Chaos as more are made, making them a double-edged sword that however is still invaluable in defense against Chaos.
(Grey Knights especially come to mind.)
Right. I mean, it's not like the planet that fields the most Imperial Guard regiments in the entire Imperium does it because they constantly hold back Chaos incursions or anything. I mean, surely, if Marines are truly the only line of defense against the forces of Chaos, the only planet in the corridor from the Eye of Terror into realspace would definitely be held exclusively by Space Marines right?
I mean, the Cadian Gate. With its renowned chapter of Cadian Space Marines.
iGuy91 wrote: I would point out, that the sororitas and astartes are, for the most part, the ONLY imperial forces in fluff capable of effectively engaging demons, and the more...horrifying aspects of the 41st and winning.
But why engage at all? The whole area is probably going to be ruined by demonic corruption anyway, so just nuke the demons from orbit and move on. The only reason to engage at all is the Imperium's obsessive need to re-fight the same old holy war between each side's sacred champions.
Marines have an easier time fighting in less hospitiable environments due to the sealed, andauto-sealing features of their armor, and they can continue to fight through severe injures without much decrease in performance. (Granted, in rare cases, normal men can do this as well)
Exactly. Normal men can do it as well, and there are enough normal men to win a war. Sending marines into lethal terrain to fight alone just means that the marines die uselessly against an enemy that probably outnumbers them by a huge margin.
As a high powered spec-ops/seek and destroy type unit, i'd say they fit that role well, with a side helping of zealotry and monk-ness.
You know what's also a great seek and destroy unit? An ICBM. If you know your target's location precisely enough to send a drop pod full of screaming idiots with chainsaws you know it precisely enough to just kill them from another continent.
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Wyzilla wrote: However, they're near completely useless against Chaos and more often than not simply end up bolsteirng the ranks of invading CSMs and Daemons.
You mean kind of like space marines? The religious zealots who started a galaxy-wide civil war over a combination of family drama and eagerly joining chaos? Or who eagerly surrender, slaughter their comrades, and join chaos if they're faced with a choice between death or power in service to chaos?
And of course both the Astartes and SOB are immune to Doubtworm, which is a critical resource as doubtworm will simply sweep through an IG regiment with them incapable of doing anything besides committing suicide.
Which is painfully stupid fluff that should be ignored. You can't have magic 100% immunity to doubt and chaos marines at the same time.
Sure, there are some weapons that beat it like plasma, but those are in limited supply thanks to the Imperium's production of technology being horribly constricted.
And this is the problem with the scale of the setting: even "rare" weapons for the IG are much more common than space marines. In a typical planet-scale battle there are probably millions of plasma guns/lascannons/etc for every space marine. Eventually, through sheer numbers, the space marines are going to be overwhelmed and killed before they can make any meaningful impact on the war.
AND, the Astates are the favorite son of the IOM.
Which is part of the stupidity of the whole thing. Space marines get all of the best equipment while everyone else is left with garbage, even though there are nowhere near enough space marines to make a difference on the scale of the whole Imperium. And that's despite the proven disloyalty of the space marines, who often care more about settling their own personal vendettas than fighting to save the Imperium.
This basically. There are more Leman Russ main battle tanks in some formations of the Imperial Guard than there are Space Marines.
The reason the Marines are the IOM's favored son is because the IOM is backwards and steeped in tradition; they can't do away with Space Marines for much the same reason the Catholic Church still finds itself protected by Swiss Pikemen.
Yes, because the guard serve as a great meatshield to push back Orks and Tyranids. However, they're near completely useless against Chaos and more often than not simply end up bolsteirng the ranks of invading CSMs and Daemons. The Astartes and SOB are the only viable defense against Chaos the Imperium has, who without would be dead ten times over from Black Crusades, Blood Crusades, Daemonic incursions, etc. And of course both the Astartes and SOB are immune to Doubtworm, which is a critical resource as doubtworm will simply sweep through an IG regiment with them incapable of doing anything besides committing suicide. Of course, the hilarious downfall is that Astartes are also the main forces of Chaos as well, and many continue to fall to Chaos as more are made, making them a double-edged sword that however is still invaluable in defense against Chaos.
(Grey Knights especially come to mind.)
Right. I mean, it's not like the planet that fields the most Imperial Guard regiments in the entire Imperium does it because they constantly hold back Chaos incursions or anything. I mean, surely, if Marines are truly the only line of defense against the forces of Chaos, the only planet in the corridor from the Eye of Terror into realspace would definitely be held exclusively by Space Marines right?
I mean, the Cadian Gate. With its renowned chapter of Cadian Space Marines.
Or like the twenty Chapters tasked with guarding the gate and territories in the edge of the eye of terror, and prevent the Cadians from being outflanked by Chaos opening forces behind the gate to pummel its defenses. It doesn't help the Cadians much that while they're more than a match for the traitor guardsmen and own regiments Chaos raises, CSM's with non-decayed power armor cannot be even harmed by lasguns.
And while Cadians serve as excellent meatshields, they're a poor choice for any special mission to stop apocalyptic events.
(Not to mention with the 13th Black Crusade now wavering in its canonicity of its current state with GW changing things, it's entirely possible the Cadians might end up being trumped by Chaos forces on the ground.)
Sure, there are some weapons that beat it like plasma, but those are in limited supply thanks to the Imperium's production of technology being horribly constricted.
And this is the problem with the scale of the setting: even "rare" weapons for the IG are much more common than space marines. In a typical planet-scale battle there are probably millions of plasma guns/lascannons/etc for every space marine. Eventually, through sheer numbers, the space marines are going to be overwhelmed and killed before they can make any meaningful impact on the war.
AND, the Astates are the favorite son of the IOM.
Which is part of the stupidity of the whole thing. Space marines get all of the best equipment while everyone else is left with garbage, even though there are nowhere near enough space marines to make a difference on the scale of the whole Imperium. And that's despite the proven disloyalty of the space marines, who often care more about settling their own personal vendettas than fighting to save the Imperium.
This basically. There are more Leman Russ main battle tanks in some formations of the Imperial Guard than there are Space Marines.
The reason the Marines are the IOM's favored son is because the IOM is backwards and steeped in tradition; they can't do away with Space Marines for much the same reason the Catholic Church still finds itself protected by Swiss Pikemen.
Yes, because the guard serve as a great meatshield to push back Orks and Tyranids. However, they're near completely useless against Chaos and more often than not simply end up bolsteirng the ranks of invading CSMs and Daemons. The Astartes and SOB are the only viable defense against Chaos the Imperium has, who without would be dead ten times over from Black Crusades, Blood Crusades, Daemonic incursions, etc. And of course both the Astartes and SOB are immune to Doubtworm, which is a critical resource as doubtworm will simply sweep through an IG regiment with them incapable of doing anything besides committing suicide. Of course, the hilarious downfall is that Astartes are also the main forces of Chaos as well, and many continue to fall to Chaos as more are made, making them a double-edged sword that however is still invaluable in defense against Chaos.
(Grey Knights especially come to mind.)
Right. I mean, it's not like the planet that fields the most Imperial Guard regiments in the entire Imperium does it because they constantly hold back Chaos incursions or anything. I mean, surely, if Marines are truly the only line of defense against the forces of Chaos, the only planet in the corridor from the Eye of Terror into realspace would definitely be held exclusively by Space Marines right?
I mean, the Cadian Gate. With its renowned chapter of Cadian Space Marines.
Or like the twenty Chapters tasked with guarding the gate and territories in the edge of the eye of terror, and prevent the Cadians from being outflanked by Chaos opening forces behind the gate to pummel its defenses. It doesn't help the Cadians much that while they're more than a match for the traitor guardsmen and own regiments Chaos raises, CSM's with non-decayed power armor cannot be even harmed by lasguns.
And while Cadians serve as excellent meatshields, they're a poor choice for any special mission to stop apocalyptic events.
(Not to mention with the 13th Black Crusade now wavering in its canonicity of its current state with GW changing things, it's entirely possible the Cadians might end up being trumped by Chaos forces on the ground.)
1) Lasguns can most certainly harm power-armored foes. Read any of the Tanith books, especially First and Only.
2) The Gate itself is held by Guardsmen. This wouldn't be the case if they were completely useless against Chaos. It'd be like holding the mouth of a river with a small rowboat, then surrounding it with fortresses so the rowboat doesn't get outflanked. Derp.
Sure, there are some weapons that beat it like plasma, but those are in limited supply thanks to the Imperium's production of technology being horribly constricted.
And this is the problem with the scale of the setting: even "rare" weapons for the IG are much more common than space marines. In a typical planet-scale battle there are probably millions of plasma guns/lascannons/etc for every space marine. Eventually, through sheer numbers, the space marines are going to be overwhelmed and killed before they can make any meaningful impact on the war.
AND, the Astates are the favorite son of the IOM.
Which is part of the stupidity of the whole thing. Space marines get all of the best equipment while everyone else is left with garbage, even though there are nowhere near enough space marines to make a difference on the scale of the whole Imperium. And that's despite the proven disloyalty of the space marines, who often care more about settling their own personal vendettas than fighting to save the Imperium.
This basically. There are more Leman Russ main battle tanks in some formations of the Imperial Guard than there are Space Marines.
The reason the Marines are the IOM's favored son is because the IOM is backwards and steeped in tradition; they can't do away with Space Marines for much the same reason the Catholic Church still finds itself protected by Swiss Pikemen.
Yes, because the guard serve as a great meatshield to push back Orks and Tyranids. However, they're near completely useless against Chaos and more often than not simply end up bolsteirng the ranks of invading CSMs and Daemons. The Astartes and SOB are the only viable defense against Chaos the Imperium has, who without would be dead ten times over from Black Crusades, Blood Crusades, Daemonic incursions, etc. And of course both the Astartes and SOB are immune to Doubtworm, which is a critical resource as doubtworm will simply sweep through an IG regiment with them incapable of doing anything besides committing suicide. Of course, the hilarious downfall is that Astartes are also the main forces of Chaos as well, and many continue to fall to Chaos as more are made, making them a double-edged sword that however is still invaluable in defense against Chaos.
(Grey Knights especially come to mind.)
Right. I mean, it's not like the planet that fields the most Imperial Guard regiments in the entire Imperium does it because they constantly hold back Chaos incursions or anything. I mean, surely, if Marines are truly the only line of defense against the forces of Chaos, the only planet in the corridor from the Eye of Terror into realspace would definitely be held exclusively by Space Marines right?
I mean, the Cadian Gate. With its renowned chapter of Cadian Space Marines.
Or like the twenty Chapters tasked with guarding the gate and territories in the edge of the eye of terror, and prevent the Cadians from being outflanked by Chaos opening forces behind the gate to pummel its defenses. It doesn't help the Cadians much that while they're more than a match for the traitor guardsmen and own regiments Chaos raises, CSM's with non-decayed power armor cannot be even harmed by lasguns.
And while Cadians serve as excellent meatshields, they're a poor choice for any special mission to stop apocalyptic events.
(Not to mention with the 13th Black Crusade now wavering in its canonicity of its current state with GW changing things, it's entirely possible the Cadians might end up being trumped by Chaos forces on the ground.)
1) Lasguns can most certainly harm power-armored foes. Read any of the Tanith books, especially First and Only.
2) The Gate itself is held by Guardsmen. This wouldn't be the case if they were completely useless against Chaos. It'd be like holding the mouth of a river with a small rowboat, then surrounding it with fortresses so the rowboat doesn't get outflanked. Derp.
1) Yeah, no. I can immediately pull up a quote where a CSM gets shot in his naked face and shrugs off the lasgun bolt. Lasguns' aren't dangerous in the least to powerarmor or Astartes. It's hellguns/hotshots that can penetrate or even potentially kill. Even Orks can no-sell lasgun shots to bare skin, it requires repeated shots in order to drop one.
2) Chaos is a myriad of forces, largely comprised of traitor guardsmen and raised regiments from daemon worlds. The Cadians would have no problems holding these off. The problem arises when organized legions like the Black Legion or the Iron Warriors drop in for a surprise visit. Especially Iron Warriors. Daemons will stomp guardsmen hard, as will well equipped CSM's that can think clearly.
Arcsquad12 wrote: Space Marines have gone from the elite special forces of the Imperium, to demigod warrior monks who liberate entire planets on their own. What began as drugged up space cops beating up aliens has over the years spiraled into the Marines we know today. A squad of Marines liberates a planet on their own. A Chapter can rescue an entire star system in days. The Space Marines are the spearhead of the Imperium, the unrivaled, the best humanity has at their disposal.
Except I feel as though the Space Marines might be a little overstated. Obviously it's because the models are the most popular, so of course they get more face time with the public and in the setting. But the fact remains that the Space Marines are the special forces. So I'd like to see that reemphasized.
In real life, the United States Marine Corps is a rapid response unit that can deploy forces around the globe at a moment's notice. Often their job is to take and hold an objective independently until a larger force arrives to take care of the crisis permanently. I feel that that is what the Space Marines should be, shock troopers that make planetfall and hold down the fort until the Guard and the Navy can mobilize. One thousand marines conquering a planet just feels out of place. One thousand marines holding specific checkpoints and positions, performing asset denial across a planet makes much more sense. A company of marines spread out across a city holding strategically valuable locations is a lot more reasonable than the crazy stuff we see in Black Library and Fluff pieces.
Basically, I'd like to see the marines act in conjunction with the Navy and Imperial Guard, rather than as the separate organization they've become. If the division of Navy and Army was an attempt to prevent individuals from gaining too much power, I'd like to see a similar structure put in place for the Marines. The Imperium's armed forces working together with combined arms tactics and take and hold strategies really appeals to me.
No, one thousand marines is not out of place. You're talking a full chapter here, A full, thousand elite men with armour and gear far surpassing that of the lesser guard and navy armies. Where the marines have quality, the guard have quantity. A thousand marines should be heralded as an army the equivalent of multiple guard battle groups, because in effect, it is. One company of marines is the equivalent of one regiment of guard. so ten companies of marines, with full a full fleet, full tank crews, specialists and chapter hangers on, (adds up to be much more than simply 1,000 marines. There are at the very least, 440 tactical marines, 180 assault marines, 180 devastator marines, 100 scout marines and 100 veterans, as well as 50 company command squad members, 10 captains, 10 chaplains, the chapter master, the honour guard of about 12 men average, the Armoury, MOTF + Techmarines + Servitors, The Librarium, the apothecarion, the navy fleet crew members that are never mentioned, the crews of tanks when deploying all 1,000 battle brothers...) you're looking at at least 1300 bodies on the ground, not including the fleet, armoured vehicles outside of the standard rhino as well as whatever else takes to the field - you might see an army as large as 1,700 men take to the field when the "Chapter of 1,000 men" deploy.
iGuy91 wrote: I would point out, that the sororitas and astartes are, for the most part, the ONLY imperial forces in fluff capable of effectively engaging demons, and the more...horrifying aspects of the 41st and winning.
But why engage at all? The whole area is probably going to be ruined by demonic corruption anyway, so just nuke the demons from orbit and move on. The only reason to engage at all is the Imperium's obsessive need to re-fight the same old holy war between each side's sacred champions.
Marines have an easier time fighting in less hospitiable environments due to the sealed, andauto-sealing features of their armor, and they can continue to fight through severe injures without much decrease in performance. (Granted, in rare cases, normal men can do this as well)
Exactly. Normal men can do it as well, and there are enough normal men to win a war. Sending marines into lethal terrain to fight alone just means that the marines die uselessly against an enemy that probably outnumbers them by a huge margin.
As a high powered spec-ops/seek and destroy type unit, i'd say they fit that role well, with a side helping of zealotry and monk-ness.
You know what's also a great seek and destroy unit? An ICBM. If you know your target's location precisely enough to send a drop pod full of screaming idiots with chainsaws you know it precisely enough to just kill them from another continent.
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Wyzilla wrote: However, they're near completely useless against Chaos and more often than not simply end up bolsteirng the ranks of invading CSMs and Daemons.
You mean kind of like space marines? The religious zealots who started a galaxy-wide civil war over a combination of family drama and eagerly joining chaos? Or who eagerly surrender, slaughter their comrades, and join chaos if they're faced with a choice between death or power in service to chaos?
And of course both the Astartes and SOB are immune to Doubtworm, which is a critical resource as doubtworm will simply sweep through an IG regiment with them incapable of doing anything besides committing suicide.
Which is painfully stupid fluff that should be ignored. You can't have magic 100% immunity to doubt and chaos marines at the same time.
You can't win a war by artillery alone. At some point you're going to have to go down and put boots on the ground. As for nuking everything, what if its a habitable world you want to resettle? What if there are important factorums you need for Baneblade ballbearings? There's a reason wars aren't just airbattles today. No amount of missiles or big guns can weed out an enemy without completely destroying that planet, if its a useless planet, then they shouldn't be fighting there anyway.
Wyzilla wrote: 1) Yeah, no. I can immediately pull up a quote where a CSM gets shot in his naked face and shrugs off the lasgun bolt. Lasguns' aren't dangerous in the least to powerarmor or Astartes. It's hellguns/hotshots that can penetrate or even potentially kill. Even Orks can no-sell lasgun shots to bare skin, it requires repeated shots in order to drop one.
Why does this one incident take priority over the fact that game lasguns are capable of killing CSM (though not very effectively), or the fluff of marines being killed/wounded by lasguns and/or forced to take cover against them instead of just standing out in the open laughing at the mere lasguns?
2) Chaos is a myriad of forces, largely comprised of traitor guardsmen and raised regiments from daemon worlds. The Cadians would have no problems holding these off. The problem arises when organized legions like the Black Legion or the Iron Warriors drop in for a surprise visit. Especially Iron Warriors. Daemons will stomp guardsmen hard, as will well equipped CSM's that can think clearly.
So let me get this straight: you have two plans, space marines protecting the flanks AND up front, or space marines protecting the flanks with IG up front. And you think the more reasonable plan is to put the limited force up front, knowing perfectly well that they will be useless if any major attack shows up? Why is this a better idea than just using space marines for everything, since they should easily be able to deal with a few random cultists according to you?
Only in the real world where you have civilian casualties to worry about. In 40k bombing the enemy until nothing is left alive just means fewer civilians for you to exterminate once you win the war.
As for nuking everything, what if its a habitable world you want to resettle?
Then you resettle. Most "habitable" worlds seem to be pretty much useless wastelands outside of the hive cities, and we've used thousands of nukes in the real world without any impact on the planet as a whole. You probably don't want to use nukes to kill everything, especially when conventional artillery and lasguns can do the job, but there shouldn't be any long-term effects from nuking key command centers/space marine drop sites/etc. The loss of the space marine squad the nuclear strike instantly vaporized is far more important to the Imperium than any damage to the planet.
What if there are important factorums you need for Baneblade ballbearings?
Who cares? The enemy has probably already placed nukes (or some chaos corruption equivalent) in them on a dead-man's switch just to spite you, so you're not capturing them intact anyway. You might as well just destroy them from a distance and not waste any valuable resources in a hopeless attempt to take them intact.
There's a reason wars aren't just airbattles today.
And it's because the rest of the world tends to get kind of unhappy when you exterminate an entire population from the air. In the real world you're expected to use limited force and deploy ground forces to kill the enemy without causing unnecessary collateral damage. In 40k you're going to murder all of those civilians anyway, so why worry about precision? If you bomb a hospital/school/etc that's just one less hospital/school/etc your ground troops have to waste valuable time destroying.
iGuy91 wrote: I would point out, that the sororitas and astartes are, for the most part, the ONLY imperial forces in fluff capable of effectively engaging demons, and the more...horrifying aspects of the 41st and winning.
But why engage at all? The whole area is probably going to be ruined by demonic corruption anyway, so just nuke the demons from orbit and move on. The only reason to engage at all is the Imperium's obsessive need to re-fight the same old holy war between each side's sacred champions.
Marines have an easier time fighting in less hospitiable environments due to the sealed, andauto-sealing features of their armor, and they can continue to fight through severe injures without much decrease in performance. (Granted, in rare cases, normal men can do this as well)
Exactly. Normal men can do it as well, and there are enough normal men to win a war. Sending marines into lethal terrain to fight alone just means that the marines die uselessly against an enemy that probably outnumbers them by a huge margin.
As a high powered spec-ops/seek and destroy type unit, i'd say they fit that role well, with a side helping of zealotry and monk-ness.
You know what's also a great seek and destroy unit? An ICBM. If you know your target's location precisely enough to send a drop pod full of screaming idiots with chainsaws you know it precisely enough to just kill them from another continent.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyzilla wrote: However, they're near completely useless against Chaos and more often than not simply end up bolsteirng the ranks of invading CSMs and Daemons.
You mean kind of like space marines? The religious zealots who started a galaxy-wide civil war over a combination of family drama and eagerly joining chaos? Or who eagerly surrender, slaughter their comrades, and join chaos if they're faced with a choice between death or power in service to chaos?
And of course both the Astartes and SOB are immune to Doubtworm, which is a critical resource as doubtworm will simply sweep through an IG regiment with them incapable of doing anything besides committing suicide.
Which is painfully stupid fluff that should be ignored. You can't have magic 100% immunity to doubt and chaos marines at the same time.
Chaos Space Marines don't result from doubt except in rare instances. It's typically them simply wanting more power than they currently have, immortality, resources, etc. The original Chaos Space Marines actually were those with no doubt what-so-ever, and rather blind loyalty to their Primarchs.
Wyzilla wrote: Chaos Space Marines don't result from doubt except in rare instances. It's typically them simply wanting more power than they currently have, immortality, resources, etc. The original Chaos Space Marines actually were those with no doubt what-so-ever, and rather blind loyalty to their Primarchs.
Sorry, but that's doubt. It's doubt in the Emperor's ability to provide power, doubt in the Emperor's wisdom, etc. If you know beyond any doubt that the Emperor is who he claims and is unquestionably right then you're not going to join the losing side. This whole thing is stupidity on the same level as the GK being absolutely 100% beyond any possible chance of failure immune to chaos, and then simultaneously having special elite GK that are even more immune to chaos than everyone else.
Wyzilla wrote: Chaos Space Marines don't result from doubt except in rare instances. It's typically them simply wanting more power than they currently have, immortality, resources, etc. The original Chaos Space Marines actually were those with no doubt what-so-ever, and rather blind loyalty to their Primarchs.
Sorry, but that's doubt. It's doubt in the Emperor's ability to provide power, doubt in the Emperor's wisdom, etc. If you know beyond any doubt that the Emperor is who he claims and is unquestionably right then you're not going to join the losing side. This whole thing is stupidity on the same level as the GK being absolutely 100% beyond any possible chance of failure immune to chaos, and then simultaneously having special elite GK that are even more immune to chaos than everyone else.
It's not about doubt or belief, its about loyalty and honor. They were loyal to their primarch, not the Emperor, so it didn't matter what he was or wasn't, (unless your a Word Bearer) They'd consider it disloyal and dishonorable to go against their Primarch.
MWHistorian wrote: It's not about doubt or belief, its about loyalty and honor. They were loyal to their primarch, not the Emperor, so it didn't matter what he was or wasn't, (unless your a Word Bearer) They'd consider it disloyal and dishonorable to go against their Primarch.
And what about the marines that have fallen to chaos since the heresy? They've come from chapters with loyalist primarchs, so that's still doubt.
MWHistorian wrote: It's not about doubt or belief, its about loyalty and honor. They were loyal to their primarch, not the Emperor, so it didn't matter what he was or wasn't, (unless your a Word Bearer) They'd consider it disloyal and dishonorable to go against their Primarch.
And what about the marines that have fallen to chaos since the heresy? They've come from chapters with loyalist primarchs, so that's still doubt.
Or greed, or ambition or any number of reasons. Doubt, of course, but to say doubt is the reason for all of them is much too simplistic.
MWHistorian wrote: Or greed, or ambition or any number of reasons. Doubt, of course, but to say doubt is the reason for all of them is much too simplistic.
But doubt is a prerequisite. If you have complete indisputable faith in the Emperor then you aren't going to abandon him and pursue personal benefits because you know that it's wrong (and a pretty bad idea in general). You don't get to the point where you're vulnerable to the temptations of chaos until you've already had at least that initial seed of doubt.
...and we've used thousands of nukes in the real world without any impact on the planet as a whole.
Can you provide a source for this? The numbers seem a bit... high. I realize there have been more than two atomic detonations (Hiroshima and Nagasaki, obviously) because we did test the things before and after the war... but "thousands'? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would like a source, please.
...and we've used thousands of nukes in the real world without any impact on the planet as a whole.
Can you provide a source for this? The numbers seem a bit... high. I realize there have been more than two atomic detonations (Hiroshima and Nagasaki, obviously) because we did test the things before and after the war... but "thousands'? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would like a source, please.
I wouldn't say no impact. St. George Utah got irradiated, Cancer rates in Japan are higher thanks to radiation from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There are islands in the pacific and parts of Nevada where no one will live for thousands of years because of the radiation. many nuke tests were conducted, but they were done in far, out of the way places where the fallout wouldn't effect population centers. Start throwing nukes into fertile farm land or cities, then it becomes a very different story. Also, our nukes are party favors compared to the ordinance the Imperium uses.
...and we've used thousands of nukes in the real world without any impact on the planet as a whole.
Can you provide a source for this? The numbers seem a bit... high. I realize there have been more than two atomic detonations (Hiroshima and Nagasaki, obviously) because we did test the things before and after the war... but "thousands'? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would like a source, please.
I wouldn't say no impact. St. George Utah got irradiated, Cancer rates in Japan are higher thanks to radiation from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There are islands in the pacific and parts of Nevada where no one will live for thousands of years because of the radiation. many nuke tests were conducted, but they were done in far, out of the way places where the fallout wouldn't effect population centers. Start throwing nukes into fertile farm land or cities, then it becomes a very different story. Also, our nukes are party favors compared to the ordinance the Imperium uses.
Cancer rates are high? Jesus christ, don't tell the administratum. They might not give a feth.
"For the price of a Veyron Bughatti you could buy a huge amount of Toyota Corollas, and they can totally perform just as well if not better!"
Except they can't.
As for the role of the Space Marines, I consider it largely to be this:
The IG is an enormous boulder the enemy is struggling to hold up and gradually failing.
If the enemy happens to be strong enough to hold it indefinitely, or progress is too slow, the Space Marines are a little feather to gently caress the man's sides and force his resistance to crumble.
Yep, enjoy that image. Make the guy Abaddon and imagine the feather in the colors and heraldry of the Pretty Marines.
"For the price of a Veyron Bughatti you could buy a huge amount of Toyota Corollas, and they can totally perform just as well if not better!"
Wrong argument. You should say "for the price of Veyron I can buy huge amount of Smarts and they can totally perform just as well...when you throw them with huge trebuchet"
Because, sadly, war isnt about being fastest/ more technologically advanced, but more devastating with resources you have. Again, this is good example of fighting in Iraq with insurgents or Afghanistan with Taliban. US/ NATO forces are much much muuuuuuuuuuuch more advanced in technology. Casuality rate is much much muuuuuch better for them. And still, those pesky locals (OK, maybe not locals all the time, but thats for another story) are still there and US/ NATO pulls back because they still cant win and are rather close to losing.
I like you boulder scheme (even its not completely true for IG, but whatever, nitpicking from my side), but I have problem that in many many maaaany scenarios this cant work for SM. You kill warboss and Orks retreats? Yes. You kill leader of cultist army and...after brief stagger, he is replaced by his second in command. Repeat. Cultists will break into many small forces and continues to fight. But Im not saying SM are useless....they are just much more...difficult to use effectively in whole war scenario.
But I think that Chaos forces are in general seen too onedimensionaly. Its not horde of demons. Its rather horde of cultist with human (barely human) leader and when some deamon or CSM emerges, its more serious and rare case.
squidhills wrote: Can you provide a source for this? The numbers seem a bit... high. I realize there have been more than two atomic detonations (Hiroshima and Nagasaki, obviously) because we did test the things before and after the war... but "thousands'? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would like a source, please.
Total of ~2000 for the whole world, in various kinds of tests.
Ferros wrote: "For the price of a Veyron Bughatti you could buy a huge amount of Toyota Corollas, and they can totally perform just as well if not better!"
Except they can't.
Except they can, because the purpose of the cars in this case is to carry ten people to work in ten different locations. The one awesome supercar might be fast, but it can only be in one place at a time and loses to the horde of cheaper cars.
The IG is an enormous boulder the enemy is struggling to hold up and gradually failing.
If the enemy happens to be strong enough to hold it indefinitely, or progress is too slow, the Space Marines are a little feather to gently caress the man's sides and force his resistance to crumble.
But for the price of those space marines you could just get a second boulder.
MWHistorian wrote: I wouldn't say no impact. St. George Utah got irradiated, Cancer rates in Japan are higher thanks to radiation from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There are islands in the pacific and parts of Nevada where no one will live for thousands of years because of the radiation. many nuke tests were conducted, but they were done in far, out of the way places where the fallout wouldn't effect population centers. Start throwing nukes into fertile farm land or cities, then it becomes a very different story.
1) Those are all local effects. If you add up the total damaged area and compare it to the total land mass of the world it's a tiny percentage. And even when you're talking about the bigger strategic nukes you still need several warheads spread out across a city to really cripple it. Using tactical nuclear weapons (which are much smaller) to kill space marine squads might cause some damage to the city you're fighting in, but the overall effect on the planet is going to be virtually nonexistent.
2) Life in the Imperium sucks anyway. Everything outside of your hive city is a useless wasteland, you're doomed to a life of miserable slavery in a factory until you die, and your only hope for a better life is to get conscripted into the IG and thrown into the meat grinder. Who cares if life expectancy goes down a bit, you can always make more people. And the radiation is probably less of a concern than the chaos corruption/xenos tech abominations/etc that the war left behind.
Also, our nukes are party favors compared to the ordinance the Imperium uses.
But you don't always use the biggest gun. There are plenty of weapons that will vaporize whole space marine squads with a single shot but not cause any real damage to the planet. In fact, the Imperium's superior technology probably means that their weapons will be cleaner. After all, it's the radiation (especially from the radioactive material that isn't used up in the fission reaction and is just scattered by the blast) that causes long-term damage with nukes, not the blast strength. For example, dropping purely kinetic weapons from space could theoretically cause more damage than nukes, but the area would be perfectly safe to live on as soon as the pool of lava that used to be a city cools down enough.
You made a fair point! The local effects of tac nukes could be scrubbed away. And there always are closed off hive cities to live in. But, still, to win, you have to make sure you got them all with the big guns and that requires sending people in. It helps if those people are well trained and equipped.
In insurgencies, sometimes big guns and tech really don't mean much. I spent two years fighting one. There's more than one type of war.
MWHistorian wrote: But, still, to win, you have to make sure you got them all with the big guns and that requires sending people in.
Or just bombing it some more until you're sure nothing could possibly still be alive. Remember, you don't have to worry about telling the difference between soldiers and civilians, you can just kill any living thing you see on the infrared scan.
It helps if those people are well trained and equipped.
It also helps if you have more than one of them per million enemy soldiers in the area. The problem with space marines is that there just aren't enough of them to make a difference. Amazing super soldiers aren't that impressive if they're spread out so thinly across a whole planet that you're lucky to have two of them within a hundred miles of each other. And even if you bring entire chapters to a war that just means that there are countless other wars that aren't getting space marines at all.
In insurgencies, sometimes big guns and tech really don't mean much. I spent two years fighting one. There's more than one type of war.
You spent two years fighting an insurgency in which you had to avoid collateral damage. For example, you have to send in ground troops to investigate a suspected enemy group meeting in a house because if you just bomb it from a distance you'll probably destroy the hospital next door and kill a bunch of innocent civilians. But that's not the case in 40k. If you bomb the factory from orbit destroying the hospital with the same shot is a nice bonus because now you don't have to send in your valuable guardsmen to go execute everyone in the hospital and risk catching some foul xenos plague.
Now, you do need troops on the ground to defend a vital area, but that's where space marines are terrible because the enemy can overwhelm their limited numbers. Marines are best in fast surgical strikes on key targets where they can get in, kill something that needs killing, and get out before a few million guardsmen/orks/etc swarm the area. And that's the kind of thing where you just drop an ICBM on it from another continent and congratulate yourself on a job well done.
MWHistorian wrote: Agreed, Space Marines would be awful in the jobs you just described. (They'd probably resent it too. Iron Warriors anyone?)
And this is the problem. Those jobs are the only jobs that are really relevant in the 40k universe. For the jobs that marines are good at (drop in, kill everything, let the guardsmen clean up the mess) you can just drop an ICBM on the target since all of the civilians you kill in the process are a nice bonus.
Psienesis wrote: Because fluff varies. Either you buy into the bolterporn, and Space Marines can, indeed, use 5 dudes to conquer a planet... or you don't, and ten regular humans in flak armor with lasguns can wipe out a squad of Space Marines suffering 0 casualties.
Except there are different games workshop games where space marines work differently... Inquisitor marines pretty much stand up to their fluff... Or is that propaghanda also?
What about 'fluff' where marines stand up to their reputation, yet still get trounced, the short story about the Lamenters being wiped out by Tyranids for example.
The tabletop has no real correlation to the setting, and just apply physics to it also, inch thick hard as nails powered personal armour is not going to get taken down by conventional bullets very easily unless it's a good shot in a weak point, and since autoguns are the equivilant of lasguns, then lasguns are not up to the job either.
The fluff is more believable than the tabletop application, as I don.t personally believe that guardsman can take down a 10ft 500kg daemon prince with combat knives and fists.
From Codex: Angels of Death:
The most important element in the construction of a suit of Space Marine power armour is the large ceramite armour plates, which provide the main form of protection against enemy attack. Individual plates of armour can be up to an inch thick, and have a special "honeycomb" design which helps to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st Millenium.
Does an injury class as death or a flesh wound, or some of the many points in between? Whilst I agree that power armour can and probably will be penetrated multiple times during a battle, the marine will shrug off a vast majority of those wounds, the las gun shot that has just tore through his bicep will instantly clot, and not stop him from firing his bolter one handed with his other arm.
Also, again, regarding this ridiculous table top application being the genuine 'fluff' rather than the propaganda fluff..... Is every model incapacitated on the table top dead? No, no they are not.
MWHistorian wrote: But, still, to win, you have to make sure you got them all with the big guns and that requires sending people in.
Or just bombing it some more until you're sure nothing could possibly still be alive. Remember, you don't have to worry about telling the difference between soldiers and civilians, you can just kill any living thing you see on the infrared scan.
It helps if those people are well trained and equipped.
It also helps if you have more than one of them per million enemy soldiers in the area. The problem with space marines is that there just aren't enough of them to make a difference. Amazing super soldiers aren't that impressive if they're spread out so thinly across a whole planet that you're lucky to have two of them within a hundred miles of each other. And even if you bring entire chapters to a war that just means that there are countless other wars that aren't getting space marines at all.
In insurgencies, sometimes big guns and tech really don't mean much. I spent two years fighting one. There's more than one type of war.
You spent two years fighting an insurgency in which you had to avoid collateral damage. For example, you have to send in ground troops to investigate a suspected enemy group meeting in a house because if you just bomb it from a distance you'll probably destroy the hospital next door and kill a bunch of innocent civilians. But that's not the case in 40k. If you bomb the factory from orbit destroying the hospital with the same shot is a nice bonus because now you don't have to send in your valuable guardsmen to go execute everyone in the hospital and risk catching some foul xenos plague.
Now, you do need troops on the ground to defend a vital area, but that's where space marines are terrible because the enemy can overwhelm their limited numbers. Marines are best in fast surgical strikes on key targets where they can get in, kill something that needs killing, and get out before a few million guardsmen/orks/etc swarm the area. And that's the kind of thing where you just drop an ICBM on it from another continent and congratulate yourself on a job well done.
But Guardsmen can't bomb the factory from orbit, they require the Navy to do that, and then they need the Navy to approve it also. Marine can just bomb it from orbit, in fact, marines can just go exterminatus on the planet within a few hours if their recon units think it is hopeless.
I'm not arguing that marines don't need guardsmen by the way, I am arguing that guardsmen also need marines, fact of the matter is, if it delves in to CC on the planet, then marines can stand up to it and hack it, guardsman cannot.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Does an injury class as death or a flesh wound, or some of the many points in between? Whilst I agree that power armour can and probably will be penetrated multiple times during a battle, the marine will shrug off a vast majority of those wounds, the las gun shot that has just tore through his bicep will instantly clot, and not stop him from firing his bolter one handed with his other arm.
Also, again, regarding this ridiculous table top application being the genuine 'fluff' rather than the propaganda fluff..... Is every model incapacitated on the table top dead? No, no they are not.
But the basic point here is that marines can be wounded and killed by even lasguns. Whether the exact number of shots on average is 10 or 20 the marine is outnumbered by such an absurdly huge margin that he will be shot and killed.
But Guardsmen can't bomb the factory from orbit, they require the Navy to do that, and then they need the Navy to approve it also. Marine can just bomb it from orbit, in fact, marines can just go exterminatus on the planet within a few hours if their recon units think it is hopeless.
Well yes, the whole point is that you spend the resources on more guardsmen AND more navy ships/crew. A marine fleet does nothing that a navy fleet can't do, except the marines cost more per ship because you're paying for their ground combat capabilities and have to worry about them deciding to abandon a war to go chase after their private vendetta with some other marines.
Also, the guardsmen might not be able to bomb a factory from orbit, but they have artillery that can turn it into rubble from miles away and ICBMs that can flatten the whole city the factory is in from another continent.
I'm not arguing that marines don't need guardsmen by the way, I am arguing that guardsmen also need marines, fact of the matter is, if it delves in to CC on the planet, then marines can stand up to it and hack it, guardsman cannot.
Except marines can't hack it. If the marines are outnumbered a million to one by a tyranid swarm (and it will probably be billions to one by the end of the invasion) the only thing they can do is die uselessly. The simple fact is that there just aren't enough marines in the Imperium to make a meaningful difference. If they all instantly disappeared overnight the only real loss would be the propaganda and religious value of the Imperium's greatest saints and martyrs.
Wyzilla wrote: I don't think we've ever seen Astartes actually occupy a territory putting down insurgents.
Maybe not, but why not? The Marines could very conceivably have some reason to stick around. Maybe they draw recruits from this world? Maybe they've sworn an oath to trusted allies to keep the world safe? Apart from that, Marines needn't be occupying a territory long-term to battle insurgents. The insurgents could be pre-existing while the Marines are there for some other reason, or newly-emergd. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't have happened.
Peregrine wrote: But why engage at all? The whole area is probably going to be ruined by demonic corruption anyway, so just nuke the demons from orbit and move on. The only reason to engage at all is the Imperium's obsessive need to re-fight the same old holy war between each side's sacred champions.
Aside from that, the Imperium might also place some value on an object or resource on the world. For example, there's some fluff where the SoB send down squads to a former shrine world turned daemon world to recover untained relics, even though the GK show up soon after and bomb the planet clean. The Imperium ain't always logical about these things.
Peregrine wrote: This whole thing is stupidity on the same level as the GK being absolutely 100% beyond any possible chance of failure immune to chaos
The fluff implies otherwise, actually. Firstly, we have the Changling instilling a "seed of doubt" into a GK in the Daemons codex. And in the Bloodtide, the GK are actually described as "needing" their blood ritual to protect them from corruption.
Marines role in the Imperium wars is better compared to the Long Range Desert Group in WW2. There is no way they could deal with the full might of the Afrika Korp in a direct engagement but there role at eliminating airfields and crucial positions and supply convoys was vital to the Allied war effort and eventual victory in the campaign (Arguably less important than British dominance of the Mediterranean and the problems with supply but still). Another equivalent would be the Ranger attack on Pointe du Hoc and the Glider attack on Pegasus Bridge during D day. All of which are crucial special operations which won a larger battlefield and were vital in the success of the larger effort. The other thing is an Astartes Squad crams a lot more focussed force into a smaller area and means they can defend crucial positions far better than the Guard and also deal with far greater numbers. Basically a squad of Astartes has roughly the force of a small platoon of guardsmen but takes half the area. A company has roughly the same force as two or three companies and takes a 1/3 of the space a chapter has the same force as a regiment but requires far less space to operate in making it far more deadly. This is useful when defending or assaulting a critical installation.
Artilleries devastation is over stated there are always survivors. The First Day of the Somme with its 60000 casualties proves the danger of over estimating it's efficiency, during WW1 huge numbers died but most units survived bombardment on a scale never seen before or since as cohesive units. You also over look the fact you might need to prove somebodies dead or gain access to something they hold. A bombing raid on Bin Laden's compound wouldn't have necessarily killed him and would have destroyed the records he had, the Seal strike proved he'd died to the people who matter and secured the records. A major bombardment strike would not have been an option as Pakistan is a nuclear power and could respond in kind. It has it's own ICBM strike capability and would have rightfully responded in kind. It would also have enraged the majority of people in the world. Watching America nuke one of it's allies because a criminal is living there would have enraged most of it's allies as well. Bombings also work to encourage the enemy to fight and are a powerful propaganda tool as was proven in WW2 where attacks like Coventry were used in recruitment and mobilisation drives.
Basically Marines win crucial skirmishes and ensure a war is won but are a hugely valuable tool. Special Forces can't hold major trench lines or defend countries but they can defend vital installations or destroy them.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Does an injury class as death or a flesh wound, or some of the many points in between? Whilst I agree that power armour can and probably will be penetrated multiple times during a battle, the marine will shrug off a vast majority of those wounds, the las gun shot that has just tore through his bicep will instantly clot, and not stop him from firing his bolter one handed with his other arm.
Also, again, regarding this ridiculous table top application being the genuine 'fluff' rather than the propaganda fluff..... Is every model incapacitated on the table top dead? No, no they are not.
But the basic point here is that marines can be wounded and killed by even lasguns. Whether the exact number of shots on average is 10 or 20 the marine is outnumbered by such an absurdly huge margin that he will be shot and killed.
But Guardsmen can't bomb the factory from orbit, they require the Navy to do that, and then they need the Navy to approve it also. Marine can just bomb it from orbit, in fact, marines can just go exterminatus on the planet within a few hours if their recon units think it is hopeless.
Well yes, the whole point is that you spend the resources on more guardsmen AND more navy ships/crew. A marine fleet does nothing that a navy fleet can't do, except the marines cost more per ship because you're paying for their ground combat capabilities and have to worry about them deciding to abandon a war to go chase after their private vendetta with some other marines.
Also, the guardsmen might not be able to bomb a factory from orbit, but they have artillery that can turn it into rubble from miles away and ICBMs that can flatten the whole city the factory is in from another continent.
I'm not arguing that marines don't need guardsmen by the way, I am arguing that guardsmen also need marines, fact of the matter is, if it delves in to CC on the planet, then marines can stand up to it and hack it, guardsman cannot.
Except marines can't hack it. If the marines are outnumbered a million to one by a tyranid swarm (and it will probably be billions to one by the end of the invasion) the only thing they can do is die uselessly. The simple fact is that there just aren't enough marines in the Imperium to make a meaningful difference. If they all instantly disappeared overnight the only real loss would be the propaganda and religious value of the Imperium's greatest saints and martyrs.
As has already been pointed out though, the marines wouldn't be 'holding' the position, they would either be holding for a matter of hours till the attacking army has been bombed from orbit, or till the guard arrive... Fact is, you couldn't get enough guard on the ground fast enough, or redeploy them fast enough to hold a position, especially if the fighting is CC as they would be munched through far faster than the marines, and if it's inside a facility the marines are even better.
There are some situations where the guardsmen may be able to do the exact same job, but the expended resources to do it would be inefficient compared to sending in the marines.
Lastly, it's totally possible that the guardsmen don't get the same equipment in case they turn traitor with the navy they are with. Millions/Billions of troops deploying via drop pod and taking planets in rapid succession is a much bigger potential threat to the Imperium than the theoretically more stable space marine chapters who are independent.
There is nothing that needs its role re-emphasized.
Because its the other way round.
Some people should re-evaluate their take on 40k.
WH40k isn't a place of realism, correct scale or well thought out fluff.
GW itself hasn't decided what they want it to be. Is it a small scale skirmish? An engagement on a battalion level? Epic size?
We have GW and their usual setup of tables for example. Like "please buy our big kits" => forces SHV and GC into a "game" on a standard table....
Sure as hell would those long range big guns face off at a distance of .. 2x the length of the vehicles???
We have GW and their new tactic of adding flyers and MC ( so again they mirror fantasy, WHFB ) everywhere. Who expected the grey knight baby carrier, SM centurier etc if there was a faction specific design scheme? Anything in the background ? Or unexpected?
Basically 40k is like a snapshot of a bigger event. So SM belong there. Even sisters or Inquisition. As part of a certain moment in time. They wouldn't fit in if it was about a whole war or even a battle.
GW focused on them, like movies focus on the shiny knight and not the masses of footsloggers in the background. This works well for them since 40k isn't meant to be "real". You don't agree to a game months before just to emulate the time your army is "in transit" to the battlefield. You don't have to care about morale, supplies, etc. You don't have to use what's available on that planet, you choose freely from a list. There is exactly zero "realism" involved.
So SM need too many ressources? Laughable. 40k ressources are endless. Your army can die multiple times per day and you don't have to wait for reinforcements to "act" again. In fact, GW doesn't care if their fluff and reality are compatible. To them its just a handwavium rich magic land....
The background may suggest the majority of conflicts involves the population and the local law enforcement. And we are still not looking at the daily life or a conflict across decades, we are re-enacting "battles" with some dozen and up to a hundred models involved. The time frame, the "window" is too small to represent anyones role in the 40k verse correclty.
Thus Space Marines are fine as they are.
GW wrote One Marine per world is enough. So take it or leave it.
Flinty wrote: you take out its leadership and look to get the bulkof the enemy forces degraded to the point you can move about at will.
Yeah that worked so well against iraq and afghanistan.
I think these are great examples how marines attacking a rebel planet would work. They use their superior technology and skills to quickly destroy the enemy leadership and key strategic assets. Then they declare 'mission accomplished' and move on, while the guard arrives and stays for twenty years to pacify the planet that has now fallen into anarchy.
Peregrine wrote: This whole thing is stupidity on the same level as the GK being absolutely 100% beyond any possible chance of failure immune to chaos
The fluff implies otherwise, actually. Firstly, we have the Changling instilling a "seed of doubt" into a GK in the Daemons codex. And in the Bloodtide, the GK are actually described as "needing" their blood ritual to protect them from corruption.
Yeah, the Grey Knight Codex contains a few examples. The very existence of the Purifiers shows that there are levels to their incorruptibility, that they have to handle the evil below the Chamber of Purity alone is telling. Then there's Crowe's fluff that describes him as "not so much resistant to the temptations of Chaos as immune to them" and how the Grey Knights fear that the Black Blade could corrupt any other Guardians.
There's also the ancient Librarians who guard the secrets of the Sanctum Sanctorum "for the fear is ever that even some amongst the Grey Knights would not prove immune to their temptations."
Ward does describe the aegis making the Grey Knights immune to corruption, but he also describes Terminators as invincible and unstoppable, so obviously he's not unable to use exaggeration for effect.
Last point to the argument against that the table top is the correct fluff... If the table top is correct, marines aren't even that much more expensive to produce compared to a guardsmen, what is it, 2 and a half guardsmen is the cost of one marine fully equipped?
Or is this where you say that is to fulfill balance?
in the Inquisitor game I believe marines played how they should do by the fluff, they were beasts.
Flinty wrote: you take out its leadership and look to get the bulkof the enemy forces degraded to the point you can move about at will.
Yeah that worked so well against iraq and afghanistan.
I think these are great examples how marines attacking a rebel planet would work. They use their superior technology and skills to quickly destroy the enemy leadership and key strategic assets. Then they declare 'mission accomplished' and move on, while the guard arrives and stays for twenty years to pacify the planet that has now fallen into anarchy.
So in other words, they Space Marines don't do much of anything, and the Imperial Guard does all the real work. Except the planet hasn't "fallen into anarchy", of course; theyr'e still united by their hatred of the Imperium.
After all, we utterly failed in Afghanistan using Space Marine like tactics. Al Qaeda not only wasn't destroyed, they're resurgent now, and have pushed their influence beyond Afghanistan, more motivated and more powerful than before.
1hadhq wrote: There is nothing that needs its role re-emphasized.
Because its the other way round.
Some people should re-evaluate their take on 40k.
WH40k isn't a place of realism, correct scale or well thought out fluff.
GW itself hasn't decided what they want it to be. Is it a small scale skirmish? An engagement on a battalion level? Epic size?
We have GW and their usual setup of tables for example. Like "please buy our big kits" => forces SHV and GC into a "game" on a standard table....
Sure as hell would those long range big guns face off at a distance of .. 2x the length of the vehicles???
We have GW and their new tactic of adding flyers and MC ( so again they mirror fantasy, WHFB ) everywhere. Who expected the grey knight baby carrier, SM centurier etc if there was a faction specific design scheme? Anything in the background ? Or unexpected?
Basically 40k is like a snapshot of a bigger event. So SM belong there. Even sisters or Inquisition. As part of a certain moment in time. They wouldn't fit in if it was about a whole war or even a battle.
GW focused on them, like movies focus on the shiny knight and not the masses of footsloggers in the background. This works well for them since 40k isn't meant to be "real". You don't agree to a game months before just to emulate the time your army is "in transit" to the battlefield. You don't have to care about morale, supplies, etc. You don't have to use what's available on that planet, you choose freely from a list. There is exactly zero "realism" involved.
So SM need too many ressources? Laughable. 40k ressources are endless. Your army can die multiple times per day and you don't have to wait for reinforcements to "act" again. In fact, GW doesn't care if their fluff and reality are compatible. To them its just a handwavium rich magic land....
The background may suggest the majority of conflicts involves the population and the local law enforcement. And we are still not looking at the daily life or a conflict across decades, we are re-enacting "battles" with some dozen and up to a hundred models involved. The time frame, the "window" is too small to represent anyones role in the 40k verse correclty.
Thus Space Marines are fine as they are.
GW wrote One Marine per world is enough. So take it or leave it.
I'd prefer it if they went back to being space cops and not Uber-OP heroes of humanity. It would mean that for once the rules accurately represent the fluff.
The person you quoted stated exactly that. And you supported it.
Strange, because I can find no fanboyism in it.
Are you sure it is just you misusing 'fanboyism' as a justification for dismissing it and sticking to your own view? You don't need a justification for that, you know. You can interpret the setting how you wish. But not trying to apply IRL logic to a setting that is so extremely illogical is not something you are wrong in doing.
Melissia wrote: "Thus Space Marines are fine as they are. GW wrote One Marine per world is enough. So take it or leave it. "
Translation: If you don't think Space Marines are unbeatable gods of war, gtfo of 40k.
You twisting his words and trying to make them look bad does not actually make them bad.
Let's take a look.
'Thus Space Marines are fine as they are.'
I do not think 'Fine' is strong enough praise to warrant accusations of fanboyism.
'GW wrote one Marine per world is enough.'
Indeed, they actually did. A quote. Does an Ork player quoting what GW wrote about them probably conquering the galaxy if united make said player a 'fanboy'? Does a SoB player quoting what GW wrote about them, that they are completely incorruptible make them a fanboy? It is actually exactly the same thing. It is okay if your opinion says, yes, they are, but it's not exactly an objective fact.
'So take it or leave it.'
...What is wrong with this? Agree with this guy, or leave his views and keep/form your own.
Why does any of this warrant insults? Is breaking forum rule #1 really worth it to somehow try to lessen his argument?
I'm responding to his words exactly as they are in the post. It's not exactly the first time someone has said "if you don't like space marines gtfo of 40k" on this forum.
I'm responding to his words exactly as they are in the post. It's not exactly the first time someone has said "if you don't like space marines gtfo of 40k" on this forum.
Yes you are. You can interpret his words how you like, but it does not really carry much meaning if it is not how they were intended.
Translation: If you don't think Space Marines are unbeatable gods of war (IE, "take it"), gtfo of 40k (IE, "leave it").
Plus, as for assuming his intentions, since it is arguably a dubious case, I am going to go ahead and assume the nicer of the two. Because being polite is a forum rule, if nothing else.
I know I like to bring up Dawn of War a lot, despite an oddly large number of people here hating it, but I think that Relic did quite well with their representation of the Space Marines.
In the first game, the 3rd Company fights on Tartarus supported by millions of Guard units. They hold key locations, assassinate Ork Warbosses, and hunt down the heart of Chaos Corruption and Eldar influence while Colonel Brom's Imperial Guard regiments deal with the bulk of Xenos forces.
Dawn of War 2. Over a month long period, the Space Marines again are tasked with high profile targets, synapse creatures, and obtaining dangerous bio samples to fight the Tyranids and Orks, while Imperial Guard forces again hold the line.
Space Marine. A Space Marine combat patrol is given a specific order: Initiate Asset Denial, protect the titans. That was their objective. Again, we see most of the forces fighting the Ork invasion were Imperial Guard, and the entire campaign was a holding action until a Liberation Fleet could arrive to curbstomp the Waaagh!!!
If that is what Space Marines were all the time, I wouldn't mind it. It makes sense, and the ability of small squads to achieve major strategic and tactical victories to bolster the overall campaign gives the faction a sense of belonging with the rest of the Imperium.
Translation: If you don't think Space Marines are unbeatable gods of war (IE, "take it"), gtfo of 40k (IE, "leave it").
Plus, as for assuming his intentions, since it is arguably a dubious case, I am going to go ahead and assume the nicer of the two. Because being polite is a forum rule, if nothing else.
Melissia wrote: Do you mean scoured? Though I suppose there are definitions of scored that apply here, they just seem odd
Seriously though, that wasn't a flame war. Just two people disagreeing.
I meant that but I had to edit it. No it just seems like these arguments that pop up are fueled by more anger than the amount you usually get with a normal argument.
Arcsquad12 wrote: I know I like to bring up Dawn of War a lot, despite an oddly large number of people here hating it, but I think that Relic did quite well with their representation of the Space Marines.
In the first game, the 3rd Company fights on Tartarus supported by millions of Guard units. They hold key locations, assassinate Ork Warbosses, and hunt down the heart of Chaos Corruption and Eldar influence while Colonel Brom's Imperial Guard regiments deal with the bulk of Xenos forces.
Dawn of War 2. Over a month long period, the Space Marines again are tasked with high profile targets, synapse creatures, and obtaining dangerous bio samples to fight the Tyranids and Orks, while Imperial Guard forces again hold the line.
Space Marine. A Space Marine combat patrol is given a specific order: Initiate Asset Denial, protect the titans. That was their objective. Again, we see most of the forces fighting the Ork invasion were Imperial Guard, and the entire campaign was a holding action until a Liberation Fleet could arrive to curbstomp the Waaagh!!!
If that is what Space Marines were all the time, I wouldn't mind it. It makes sense, and the ability of small squads to achieve major strategic and tactical victories to bolster the overall campaign gives the faction a sense of belonging with the rest of the Imperium.
I agree that Dawn of War games feel mostly rather fluffy. Especially early game DoWII multiplayer, before the catachan blobbing and Zoanthrope spamming starts. The way, say, Guardsmen and Tactical Marines weigh up against one another and so on feels fluffy, even if some of the stats are not. (A Guardsman survives 6 seconds of bolter fire, lol. Even at point blank.)
Translation: If you don't think Space Marines are unbeatable gods of war (IE, "take it"), gtfo of 40k (IE, "leave it").
Plus, as for assuming his intentions, since it is arguably a dubious case, I am going to go ahead and assume the nicer of the two. Because being polite is a forum rule, if nothing else.
And yet another forum consumed by a flame war
May I step in?
Cause the "translation" wasn't as good as Melissia believes.
Translation: If you don't think Space Marines are unbeatable gods of war (IE, "take it"), gtfo of 40k (IE, "leave it").
Where did I say "unbeatable" ? Or GW themselves? Please enlighten the "preachy and boring" one. Seem to remember I said a few times at dakka the IoM will prevail...that includes SM.. but also IG etc pp. :
However, I accept the attitude of the IP owner Games Workshop, who doesn't care as much as some fans ( as long as I don't have the money to change this... ..) so any Quest for concepts the company doesn't understand looks lost from start...
squidhills wrote: Can you provide a source for this? The numbers seem a bit... high. I realize there have been more than two atomic detonations (Hiroshima and Nagasaki, obviously) because we did test the things before and after the war... but "thousands'? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would like a source, please.
Total of ~2000 for the whole world, in various kinds of tests.
Thank you for the link. I hadn't realized there had been so many nuclear tests. Of course, upon closer examination of that list, it becomes clear that the majority of the tests were underground detonations, which would dramatically limit the radiation and fallout effects. Two thousand above-ground detonations of high-yield warheads would have pretty much ended humanity.
Translation: If you don't think Space Marines are unbeatable gods of war (IE, "take it"), gtfo of 40k (IE, "leave it").
Plus, as for assuming his intentions, since it is arguably a dubious case, I am going to go ahead and assume the nicer of the two. Because being polite is a forum rule, if nothing else.
And yet another forum consumed by a flame war
May I step in?
Cause the "translation" wasn't as good as Melissia believes.
Translation: If you don't think Space Marines are unbeatable gods of war (IE, "take it"), gtfo of 40k (IE, "leave it").
Where did I say "unbeatable" ? Or GW themselves? Please enlighten the "preachy and boring" one. Seem to remember I said a few times at dakka the IoM will prevail...that includes SM.. but also IG etc pp. :
However, I accept the attitude of the IP owner Games Workshop, who doesn't care as much as some fans ( as long as I don't have the money to change this... ..) so any Quest for concepts the company doesn't understand looks lost from start...
Very much agreed. I do not think 'fanboy' is a term we should use. It is rude, often incorrect, and in the cases where the bias is so heavy so that the term would actually be somewhat accurate (But still rude, mind) it is so obvious so there is no need to point it out.
Kinda lika 'special snowflake'
It's implied with the "one per planet" being a reasonable assumption for Space Marine numbers that makes them anything more than a minor irrelevant faction in the grand scheme of things.
Mind you, I don't think that GW makes the assertion that it's reasonable, it just makes the assertion that it sounds cool for marketing purposes. They don't particularly care. Therefor the nuances are discussed not by them, but by us.
It's implied with the "one per planet" being a reasonable assumption for Space Marine numbers that makes them anything more than a minor irrelevant faction in the grand scheme of things.
Mind you, I don't think that GW makes the assertion that it's reasonable, it just makes the assertion that it sounds cool for marketing purposes. They don't particularly care. Therefor the nuances are discussed not by them, but by us.
Well, purposes or no, GW says it is enough, so it is enough for their purposes. That is, their truly massive force concentration being counters to enemy force concentrations, as well as being 'bully troops' that can just outmatch those who are much weaker. When you are fighting someone like Dark Eldar who can and do use tactics and technology to fight you one squad at a time, it is much better if that squad is of Astartes than of Guardsmen. They can also fight Daemons, you know, the Eldritch Abominations that drive those with less psycho-conditioning or fanaticism superpowers (Notably, SoB can do so too, by making use of the latter) insane? Or match Chaos Astartes who otherwise rampage through your lines? Not to mention the morale and propaganda advantages that their prowess grants the Imperium, as well as being religious symbols.
Both IG and SM are vital for the Imperium's survival. One is a massive, very slow stone sledgehammer, while the other is a quick, master-crafted Adamantium scalpel.
You shouldn't really bring a hammer to a knife fight.
Llamahead wrote: A major bombardment strike would not have been an option as Pakistan is a nuclear power and could respond in kind. It has it's own ICBM strike capability and would have rightfully responded in kind. It would also have enraged the majority of people in the world. Watching America nuke one of it's allies because a criminal is living there would have enraged most of it's allies as well. Bombings also work to encourage the enemy to fight and are a powerful propaganda tool as was proven in WW2 where attacks like Coventry were used in recruitment and mobilisation drives.
Again, you're forgetting that 40k isn't the real world. There is no worrying about the enemy "responding in kind" because you're already fighting a war where total extermination of the enemy is the only possible outcome and any enemy with the ability to nuke you back has already done so. There would be no outrage because nuking one random city is nothing compared to the millions/billions of civilians your troops have executed already. There is no concern over the opinion of allies because there are no allies, anyone who does not submit to the rule of the Imperium is to be utterly destroyed. There is no "encouraging the enemy to fight" because they already have a choice of fight or die, and the entire population has already been conscripted and sent into the meat grinder.
squidhills wrote: Two thousand above-ground detonations of high-yield warheads would have pretty much ended humanity.
Not even close. The whole "nuclear winter" thing was based on flawed climate models, the reason WWIII would have been so bad is the fact that all of the cities would have been destroyed and civilization would have been reduced to isolated groups of survivors with none of the networking that modern society depends on.
Plus, we're talking about damage to the planet as a whole, not damage to humanity. Nuking a planet and killing everyone currently living there is great in 40k because it means that your troops have less work to do when it's time to execute everyone and replace them with your own civilization.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Well, purposes or no, GW says it is enough, so it is enough for their purposes.
You're ignoring the obvious explanation: like most of the fluff, the whole "a squad of marines can take a planet" thing is just Imperial propaganda and hero worship. It shouldn't be taken any more seriously than we take real-world religious myths.
When you are fighting someone like Dark Eldar who can and do use tactics and technology to fight you one squad at a time, it is much better if that squad is of Astartes than of Guardsmen.
No, it's better that it's guardsmen with a nuke on a dead man's switch. They're expendable enough that it doesn't matter if they die (unlike the priceless marines), and when they die they should take the DE with them.
They can also fight Daemons, you know, the Eldritch Abominations that drive those with less psycho-conditioning or fanaticism superpowers (Notably, SoB can do so too, by making use of the latter) insane?
Why fight demons? The whole area is probably lost to demonic corruption, just nuke it from orbit and move on. The only reason to fight them directly is because the insane theocracy needs to continue fighting the holy war between each side's sacred champions.
Or match Chaos Astartes who otherwise rampage through your lines?
Drown them in guardsmen.
Not that it really matters, as CSM are even rarer than loyalist marines and might as well not exist at all on the scale of the Imperium as a whole. And odds are the CSM are going to appear somewhere that the closest loyalist marine is years away.
Not to mention the morale and propaganda advantages that their prowess grants the Imperium, as well as being religious symbols.
This is the only reason marines have any value at all: they're religious icons, and the propaganda value of "every minute you keep fighting is another chance for the space marines to arrive and save us" is priceless for motivating the Imperium's armies to keep fighting even in the most hopeless and terrifying situations.
After all, we utterly failed in Afghanistan using Space Marine like tactics. Al Qaeda not only wasn't destroyed, they're resurgent now, and have pushed their influence beyond Afghanistan, more motivated and more powerful than before.
Irrelevant comparison. The IoM isn't hindered by the veneer of 'freedom and libertyyyyy' that the USA tries to maintain while invading other sovereign nations. The IoM would have just exterminated Iraq and Afghan. But nice job linking a grimdark future with demons and magic people with current real world politics.
Peregrine wrote: This is the only reason marines have any value at all: they're religious icons, and the propaganda value of "every minute you keep fighting is another chance for the space marines to arrive and save us" is priceless for motivating the Imperium's armies to keep fighting even in the most hopeless and terrifying situations.
I don't think that gives them any value, as they could just be entirely fictional for almost no cost, and if Marines are truly crap and irrelevant, then having them be real would only crash morale when they do show up and completely fail expectations.
Daemons aren't that easy as nuking them from orbit, if chaos corrupts the guard or navy whose job it is to wipe them out then it starts as a cancer that can corrupt a whole battle group with enough time. The Inquisition knows that only using such extreme measures will draw attention and corrupt, and corruption of a world is one thing, corruption of a battlegroup is a fething big deal and a threat to the imperium.
Animus wrote: I don't think that gives them any value, as they could just be entirely fictional for almost no cost, and if Marines are truly crap and irrelevant, then having them be real would only crash morale when they do show up and completely fail expectations.
Well, the propaganda aspect is just a nice side effect really. The main reason to have space marines is that god told the Imperium to have space marines, and the Imperium is an insane theocracy where devotion to religious idiocy must be maintained regardless of the cost.
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endlesswaltz123 wrote: Daemons aren't that easy as nuking them from orbit, if chaos corrupts the guard or navy whose job it is to wipe them out then it starts as a cancer that can corrupt a whole battle group with enough time.
So now we have magic chaos that automatically corrupts a ship in orbit without having anyone in the fleet ever go down to the planet? You do realize that this pretty much means that chaos will always corrupt everything, and no war against chaos can ever succeed, right? If the bombardment fleet can be corrupted like that then surely a fleet transporting a conventional army to the planet can be corrupted just as easily.
Peregrine wrote: Well, the propaganda aspect is just a nice side effect really. The main reason to have space marines is that god told the Imperium to have space marines, and the Imperium is an insane theocracy where devotion to religious idiocy must be maintained regardless of the cost.
But we know the Ecclesiarchy doesn't really get on with Marines all that well, so why keep them?
Why would the Emperor waste his time on Space Marines in the first place?
Harriticus wrote: I agree they should go back to a more specialized role, unless their numbers are expanded. The idea that 100 Space Marines can take even an area the size of Connecticut is laughable, I don't care how "elite" they are. Nevermind having that number conquer entire planets on a regular basis.
The Legiones Astartes sizes just scratched the surface of necessary Marine numbers for system-wide conquests given Marine capabilities.
Flinty wrote: you take out its leadership and look to get the bulkof the enemy forces degraded to the point you can move about at will.
Yeah that worked so well against iraq and afghanistan.
I think these are great examples how marines attacking a rebel planet would work. They use their superior technology and skills to quickly destroy the enemy leadership and key strategic assets. Then they declare 'mission accomplished' and move on, while the guard arrives and stays for twenty years to pacify the planet that has now fallen into anarchy.
So in other words, they Space Marines don't do much of anything, and the Imperial Guard does all the real work. Except the planet hasn't "fallen into anarchy", of course; theyr'e still united by their hatred of the Imperium.
After all, we utterly failed in Afghanistan using Space Marine like tactics. Al Qaeda not only wasn't destroyed, they're resurgent now, and have pushed their influence beyond Afghanistan, more motivated and more powerful than before.
rant: I think a huge problem is the definition of "conquer" or "take a planet".
to wit: "con·quer
ˈkäNGkər/Submit
verb
1.
overcome and take control of (a place or people) by use of military force.
"the Magyars conquered Hungary in the Middle Ages"
synonyms: defeat, beat, vanquish, trounce, triumph over, be victorious over, get the better of, worst;"
An important idea is what is meant by take control. What are they controlling? ALL resources, some resources, one resource, the population, some of the population, space access, the thoughts of everyone on the planet? One of the HUGE issues I have with Sci-Fi in general is the bizarre way that a planet is treated like some monolithic thing that is homogeneous and unchanging. Every planet is shown as having one environment, one culture, one stereotype, no sub-planetary governance, etc. While I can assume that is merely a convention of scale (you zoom around the galaxy, why care about some little dinky backwater country in a small continent of an unimportant planet?), it still gives the impression that if you just do this "one thing" you can somehow "take control" of something. IRL, this is not how it works. Kill off a national leader, guess what, people don't just roll over and give you free reign to own the country (or extrapolating out, the planet). The whole "decapitation" attack BS that people believe is also really, really dumb. You can decapitate organizations all you want, they don't "go away"...they are degraded...for a time. Granted, you can use SM to degrade planets ability to react and withstand invasion from the IG and IN, but to think that somehow 10 guys in powered armor show up, kill some guys (or a lot of guys) and somehow the whole planetary population just says, "OK, were conquered, please have mercy" is ludicrous.
The next part is the "planet" in question...if there is ZERO population on it, as in a frozen little ice ball like Pluto...yes, a single tactical squad can certainly conquer that planet. A Space Marine Chapter can NOT conquer modern day Earth...they can hack and slash their way through a billion people, hack every computer and murder with poison gas another two billion humans...and they still will not be able to "take control." The population of the planet is a hugely important variable... /rant
Animus wrote: But we know the Ecclesiarchy doesn't really get on with Marines all that well, so why keep them?
Why would the Emperor waste his time on Space Marines in the first place?
Why does any religion do what they do? Maybe the Emperor never wasted time with space marines, and the whole thing was invented because some priest saw an ancient cartoon with power armored super-soldiers, thought it was a history book, and nobody was willing to dispute the sacred word of god? You have to stop thinking about rational decisions and remember that the Imperium is a delusional theocracy where knowledge is heresy and heresy is death.
Animus wrote: I don't think that gives them any value, as they could just be entirely fictional for almost no cost, and if Marines are truly crap and irrelevant, then having them be real would only crash morale when they do show up and completely fail expectations.
Well, the propaganda aspect is just a nice side effect really. The main reason to have space marines is that god told the Imperium to have space marines, and the Imperium is an insane theocracy where devotion to religious idiocy must be maintained regardless of the cost.
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endlesswaltz123 wrote: Daemons aren't that easy as nuking them from orbit, if chaos corrupts the guard or navy whose job it is to wipe them out then it starts as a cancer that can corrupt a whole battle group with enough time.
So now we have magic chaos that automatically corrupts a ship in orbit without having anyone in the fleet ever go down to the planet? You do realize that this pretty much means that chaos will always corrupt everything, and no war against chaos can ever succeed, right? If the bombardment fleet can be corrupted like that then surely a fleet transporting a conventional army to the planet can be corrupted just as easily.
Yeah, I think that's the actual jist of chaos, it can't be defeated whilst people willing to worship it live. Also, chaos can corrupt without any physical contact. Come on, this is basic fluff now, you should know this.
slade the sniper wrote: but to think that somehow 10 guys in powered armor show up, kill some guys (or a lot of guys) and somehow the whole planetary population just says, "OK, were conquered, please have mercy" is ludicrous.
And it's especially ludicrous in a setting like 40k, where mercy doesn't exist and surrender just means you die in the execution camps instead of in battle.
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endlesswaltz123 wrote: Yeah, I think that's the actual jist of chaos, it can't be defeated whilst people willing to worship it live. Also, chaos can corrupt without any physical contact. Come on, this is basic fluff now, you should know this.
Yes, but my point is that if chaos can corrupt a bombardment fleet at a distance then it can corrupt everything. There would be no fighting against chaos, you just happen to exist on the same planet as a chaos thing and you're corrupted, end of discussion. But what we see is that it is possible to resist chaos and even win wars against chaos, so there must be limits to its ability to corrupt. And if you can fight a conventional war (often over long periods of time, and at close range) and win without getting corrupted then it just isn't reasonable to argue that a bombardment fleet will be corrupted in the brief time it spends in orbit.
Animus wrote: But we know the Ecclesiarchy doesn't really get on with Marines all that well, so why keep them?
The Ecclesiarchy isn't in charge, and the Marines were already very well-established before the Ecclesiarchy was formed. So the Ecclesiarchy can't really decree that all Marines must be removed.
Besides, the Ecclesiarchy doesn't have only dislike for the Marines. They give Chaplains Rosariuses, so obviously they have some measure of respect for them. Also, there's Chapters like the BT that share the Ecclesiarchy's beliefs and regularly help them out.
The possibility to corrupt isn't the same as corrupting everything.
The Imperium know that any involvement with chaos leads to more corruption, most guardsmen and Navy don't know it exists, as soon as they do know they become a problem, as they are easier to corrupt, if they don't go insane that is.
So, that battlegroup in distance of the planet is better off not responding if some space marines in a strike cruiser are nearby, as they can handle for the most part the nuking aspect and are even better at taking back the forge worlds or important shrine worlds without destroying them when daemons are involved.
You're just arguing rubbish points now and I'm bored of it.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The Imperium know that any involvement with chaos leads to more corruption, most guardsmen and Navy don't know it exists, as soon as they do know they become a problem, as they are easier to corrupt, if they don't go insane that is.
So don't tell the crew about chaos. You don't need to know all about chaos to fire a nuke at the map coordinates you've been given.
So, that battlegroup in distance of the planet is better off not responding if some space marines in a strike cruiser are nearby, as they can handle for the most part the nuking aspect and are even better at taking back the forge worlds or important shrine worlds without destroying them when daemons are involved.
You mean the same marines that are constantly falling to chaos?
Plus, as I've said, talking about the space marine fleet ignores the fact that a space marine strike cruiser is much more expensive and inefficient than a conventional ship because you're paying to support the ground forces on that cruiser. You don't build an army of super soldiers to fight on the ground because they come with shiny new strike cruisers.
Peregrine wrote: The main reason to have space marines is that god told the Imperium to have space marines, and the Imperium is an insane theocracy where devotion to religious idiocy must be maintained regardless of the cost.
I think you should add a 'In my opinion' somewhere in there.
What you said is by no means an objective fact, it is a possible interpretation. Nothing more, nothing less.
You mean the same marines that are constantly falling to chaos?
Yeah, because we never see insurgent Guardsmen or PDF anywhere.
Oh wait... We do. In fact, it seems so common so it's not even a big deal any longer. (Unlike when a Chapter rebels- Just look at the havoc the Astral Claws caused when they decided Imperium was not fun any longer.)
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The Imperium know that any involvement with chaos leads to more corruption, most guardsmen and Navy don't know it exists, as soon as they do know they become a problem, as they are easier to corrupt, if they don't go insane that is.
So don't tell the crew about chaos. You don't need to know all about chaos to fire a nuke at the map coordinates you've been given.
So, that battlegroup in distance of the planet is better off not responding if some space marines in a strike cruiser are nearby, as they can handle for the most part the nuking aspect and are even better at taking back the forge worlds or important shrine worlds without destroying them when daemons are involved.
You mean the same marines that are constantly falling to chaos?
Plus, as I've said, talking about the space marine fleet ignores the fact that a space marine strike cruiser is much more expensive and inefficient than a conventional ship because you're paying to support the ground forces on that cruiser. You don't build an army of super soldiers to fight on the ground because they come with shiny new strike cruisers.
I love constantly as a terms of measurement, how come there are still loyal marines then? At the rate of constant, it wouldn't take long to burn through and corrupt all the chapters.
And to fire the nuke, someone will need to know what is down there, someone will know why the nuke is being fired and that is a liability.
Also, is a Space Marine strike cruiser housing 100 marines and their equipment more expensive than the Emperor class battleship plus support ships and troop transport ships? I don't think so.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: What you said is by no means an objective fact, it is a possible interpretation. Nothing more, nothing less.
No, it's one of the defining facts about the setting. Seriously, remember the whole grimdark thing? A big part of that is that the Imperium is an oppressive theocracy where religious delusion oppresses trillions and any attempt at questioning the sacred truth or independent thought is heresy and punished by death. And the whole point is that this obscenity is the only way for humanity to cling desperately to one more day of life.
Yeah, because we never see insurgent Guardsmen or PDF anywhere.
Of course we do. The point is that marines also fail to chaos and aren't some magic chaos-proof army, not that nobody else does.
Animus wrote: But we know the Ecclesiarchy doesn't really get on with Marines all that well, so why keep them?
Why would the Emperor waste his time on Space Marines in the first place?
Why does any religion do what they do? Maybe the Emperor never wasted time with space marines, and the whole thing was invented because some priest saw an ancient cartoon with power armored super-soldiers, thought it was a history book, and nobody was willing to dispute the sacred word of god? You have to stop thinking about rational decisions and remember that the Imperium is a delusional theocracy where knowledge is heresy and heresy is death.
They'll usually have have some reason to do things, warped and irrelevant as it may become down the centuries. But why Space Marines? If they're not from the Emperor, then why are they organised like they are? Why are million of them, why not ten or a trillion? Why new marks of armor? Why not discontinue them as false when they fail to reach their supposed prowess?
Troike wrote:
Animus wrote: But we know the Ecclesiarchy doesn't really get on with Marines all that well, so why keep them?
The Ecclesiarchy isn't in charge, and the Marines were already very well-established before the Ecclesiarchy was formed. So the Ecclesiarchy can't really decree that all Marines must be removed.
Besides, the Ecclesiarchy doesn't have only dislike for the Marines. They give Chaplains Rosariuses, so obviously they have some measure of respect for them. Also, there's Chapters like the BT that share the Ecclesiarchy's beliefs and regularly help them out.
The Ecclesiarchy would be making the religious decisions though, so if Marines don't get along with them, are worse than useless and are only kept around because they're maybe sorta holy in the eyes of the masses why keep them? CGI them into some battle scenes, and show it to the peasants, cheaper and better.
No, it's one of the defining facts about the setting. Seriously, remember the whole grimdark thing? A big part of that is that the Imperium is an oppressive theocracy where religious delusion oppresses trillions and any attempt at questioning the sacred truth or independent thought is heresy and punished by death. And the whole point is that this obscenity is the only way for humanity to cling desperately to one more day of life.
That it is grimdark doesn't have to mean that Marines, for example, are useless in the way you say they are. If every Marine was a living god but the enemies of Man were so many so that even that was insufficient and the Imperium is falling, then that is grimdark too. Not that I am arguing that the former is the case, just that 'grimdark' is not that narrow.
Your interpretation of the 40K's setting is just that, an interpretation. It is not a 'defining fact', no matter how much you'd like it to be.
Of course we do. The point is that marines also fail to chaos and aren't some magic chaos-proof army, not that nobody else does.
Marines do fall occasionally, yes. It is still considerably more rare, and in the rather likely event that they do not fall, they are likely to perform considerably better than most alternatives.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I love constantly as a terms of measurement, how come there are still loyal marines then? At the rate of constant, it wouldn't take long to burn through and corrupt all the chapters.
Sigh. You realize that "constant" doesn't necessarily mean "faster than the rate that chapters are rebuilt at", right? Sure, those SW crew just embraced chaos and slaughtered their comrades to avoid death, but you've got plenty of recruits to replace them.
And to fire the nuke, someone will need to know what is down there, someone will know why the nuke is being fired and that is a liability.
Except you already have non-marines that know about chaos. Inquisitors, admirals in charge of major fleets, IG officers in charge of entire sector-wide campaigns, commissars that need to recognize the signs of corruption to know who to execute, etc. And those people don't just automatically fall to chaos.
Also, you overestimate how may people need to know about chaos. The ship's captain gets an order from the inquisition that there is a rebellion to deal with and to go to a given planet and await bombardment orders, and doesn't need to know any more than that. The gunners receive a list of coordinates to destroy and certainly don't need to know what they're shooting at or why.
Also, is a Space Marine strike cruiser housing 100 marines and their equipment more expensive than the Emperor class battleship plus support ships and troop transport ships? I don't think so.
Why are we comparing ships that aren't equivalent? The relevant comparison is between cruisers and other cruisers, not cruisers and battleships.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: (Unlike when a Chapter rebels- Just look at the havoc the Astral Claws caused when they decided Imperium was not fun any longer.)
To be fair, those guys were in control of a whole sector, and were able to coax other Marine chapters into joining them. Of course a Marine Chapter falling is a major event that will usually cause a lot of damage and warrent a storng response, but I don't think that the Badab incident is the norm.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: (Unlike when a Chapter rebels- Just look at the havoc the Astral Claws caused when they decided Imperium was not fun any longer.)
To be fair, those guys were in control of a whole sector, and were able to coax other Marine chapters into joining them. Of course a Marine Chapter falling is a major event that will usually cause a lot of damage and warrent a storng response, but I don't think that the Badab incident is the norm.
Well, that might be true, but it is still a reflection of just how important such an event actually can be.
Animus wrote: The Ecclesiarchy would be making the religious decisions though
Yes, and they've made the decision to (at least nominally) get along with the Marines. Again, they give Marine Chaplains Rosariuses, so obviously there's some level of respect, there.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Well, that might be true, but it is still a reflection of just how important such an event actually can be.
Yes, but it was important because they took the entire sector's government, PDF and navy with them, not because a few random marines decided to stop following the rules. A single rogue chapter would have been written off as another case of marines being marines, just like the Imperium always looks the other way when the DA abandon their duties to go chase after a vague rumor of some chaos guy in DA robes.
The Badab War is stated to be the largest Marine vs Marine conflict since the Heresy, if I recall correctly (could be wrong, but could have sworn there were statements to such). ...presumably this doesn't include Chaos Marines. So yes, it was a rather unique event (assuming my memory isn't off)
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Well, that might be true, but it is still a reflection of just how important such an event actually can be.
Yes, but it was important because they took the entire sector's government, PDF and navy with them, not because a few random marines decided to stop following the rules. A single rogue chapter would have been written off as another case of marines being marines, just like the Imperium always looks the other way when the DA abandon their duties to go chase after a vague rumor of some chaos guy in DA robes.
When Marines rebel, it's actually pretty bad.
The point is that Marines are important and influental enough to pull that kind of stunt. Even if the Cadian 8th or Catachan whateverth or some other major regiment decided to rebel, they simply do not have the same problem-causing capacity.
Not only is over a thousand Space Marines with ships, specialists etc a rather intimidating foe in itself, but since they are so influental they can bring down much more with them than just their homeworld.
It's certainly not a dime a dozen event.
The DA rushing off on a side-track to see if there possibly is a Fallen over there is not even close to on the same level.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: The point is that Marines are important and influental enough to pull that kind of stunt. Even if the Cadian 8th or Catachan whateverth or some other major regiment decided to rebel, they simply do not have the same problem-causing capacity.
Which is actually a pretty good reason to get rid of marines. There aren't enough of them to make a difference, and when they turn traitor they do way more damage than other traitors.
The DA rushing off on a side-track to see if there possibly is a Fallen over there is not even close to on the same level.
But it's also a lot more frequent. You can't use the Badab War, an incredibly rare event that had more to do with the non-marine parts of the sector rebelling than the marines themselves, as a representative example of the average chaos marine.
Which is actually a pretty good reason to get rid of marines. There aren't enough of them to make a difference, and when they turn traitor they do way more damage than other traitors.
Lucky, then, that we already know that 1 million is enough, eh?
If one million was "enough", and Space Marines are the kind of unbeatable gods of war people claim they are, then the Imperium would not be shrinking (if slowly) through attrition.
Or we could just accept the fact that, for all their prowess, there simply aren't enough of them to make a huge difference. They make a presence in many (but not all) major battles, acting as force multipliers for the Imperium in those battles, but the overwhelming majority of the Imperium's ability to survive and thrive is on the backs of the common human-- the PDFs, the gangers/penal legions, the mobs of the Frateris Militia, the Imperial Guard. Most battles don't involve Space Marines or even the threat of them; most humans will never see a Space Marine, most of the Imperium's enemies will never fight a Space Marine, most wars will never be graced with their fighting ability.
Thus is the grimdarkness of 40k; the super elite warriors, for all their power, are not enough to turn the tide. Only through the sacrifice of billions of common soldiers can the status quo be maintained, and the Imperium preserved in the face of the ravening hordes of Tyranids, the unending warmongering of the Green Tide, and the subversive power of Chaos... and so many other threats.
If one million was "enough", and Space Marines are the kind of unbeatable gods of war people claim they are, then the Imperium would not be shrinking (if slowly) through attrition.
Or we could just accept the fact that, for all their prowess, there simply aren't enough of them to make a huge difference. They make a presence in many (but not all) major battles, acting as force multipliers for the Imperium in those battles, but the overwhelming majority of the Imperium's ability to survive and thrive is on the backs of the common human-- the PDFs, the gangers/penal legions, the mobs of the Frateris Militia, the Imperial Guard. Most battles don't involve Space Marines or even the threat of them; most humans will never see a Space Marine, most of the Imperium's enemies will never fight a Space Marine, most wars will never be graced with their fighting ability.
Thus is the grimdarkness of 40k; the super elite warriors, for all their power, are not enough to turn the tide. Only through the sacrifice of billions of common soldiers can the status quo be maintained, and the Imperium preserved in the face of the ravening hordes of Tyranids, the unending warmongering of the Green Tide, and the subversive power of Chaos... and so many other threats.
Hey, strawman again.
Nobody claimed that they were unbeatable gods of war.
There is enough of them, perhaps. But the Imperium needs more than just Space Marines.
Space Marines are able to react to threats faster than any other organization of the Imperium because they don't have to deal with as much red tape (if you read the Imperial Armour books, it details the set up to some of the campaigns and they take a rather hilarious amount of time and coordination to set up). So they're useful for those times when something needs some sort of response RIGHT NOW, even if just something to stem the tide until a larger Imperial force can be mustered... if there happen to be some marines in the area, at least. That's why a lot of marine stories start with "Responding to a distress call".
TiamatRoar wrote: Space Marines are able to react to threats faster than any other organization of the Imperium because they don't have to deal with as much red tape (if you read the Imperial Armour books, it details the set up to some of the campaigns and they take a rather hilarious amount of time and coordination to set up). So they're useful for those times when something needs some sort of response RIGHT NOW, even if just something to stem the tide until a larger Imperial force can be mustered... if there happen to be some marines in the area, at least. That's why a lot of marine stories start with "Responding to a distress call".
Also helps too when it's a good Chapter responding to it. If the Marines Malevolent or Flesh Tearers bother to respond, you're best suited killing yourself or crawling into a hole and hiding until everything's dead. The majority of Chapters are extremely useful- but there will always be those bad eggs you have to cross your fingers don't happen to be in the area.
Of course, I haven't a clue how the Marines Malevolent and Flesh Tearers haven't been labeled heretic or fallen to Chaos. Especially the Marines Malevolent.
Gabriel Seth explicitly carefully selects which distress calls the Flesh Tearers respond to, actually, because he's pretty sure the Flesh Tearers are going to die out soon and wants them to at least be remembered as heros. He chooses to respond to calls where collateral damage won't be as much of an issue (worlds that aren't heavily populated on the frontier, for example, or attacking Xenos worlds, etc etc). (good thing for him that Space Marine independency lets him get away with not responding to distress calls. Though he does forward the ones he doesn't directly respond to over to other Imperial organizations)
It's stated that his strategy is working and the Flesh Tearers are actually getting praises these days. Though of course they're still doomed to die out if a cure for the Black Rage isn't found, soon.
The Marines Malevolent are just jack asses, maybe. I wouldn't be surprised if the gods found their evil-ness to be too pathetic to bother tempting. Like, Khorne would be having his minions and servants slaughtering everything and meanwhile the marines malevolent are just kicking puppies around, making Khorne roll his eyes at the lameness of the whole thing.
squidhills wrote: Two thousand above-ground detonations of high-yield warheads would have pretty much ended humanity.
Not even close. The whole "nuclear winter" thing was based on flawed climate models, the reason WWIII would have been so bad is the fact that all of the cities would have been destroyed and civilization would have been reduced to isolated groups of survivors with none of the networking that modern society depends on.
I'm not referring to nuclear winter. I'm referring to radioactive fallout. The Chernobyl disaster spread radiation over a wide expanse of Europe and rendered much of the immediate area uninhabitable. While there are some individuals living in isolated pockets near the remains of the reactor, there are still many places with enough residual radiation to give a fatal dose after a brief exposure. Now imagine two thousand Chernobyls going off. You wouldn't even need to hit the cities to end civilization; death by radiation sickness would affect an overwhelming majority of the population. Preventing radioactive fallout from hitting a wide area is one of the reasons that, as warheads got bigger and bigger, the tests of them began to be moved underground.
Arcsquad12 wrote: I thought that the Malevolent had been declared excommunicatus traitoris?
No, not yet. Just that nobody likes them, to the point that IIRC, the Admech has refused to supply them with anything.
IIRC, it has never been stated that the Admech has cut off supply, it was just that a group of Marines Malevolent were found by some Salamanders stealing things from a wrecked ship. In 40k, marines are often depicted as running low on some technology as grasp on technology falters (as it does a lot), the Marines Malevolent are likely no different.
But yeah, they are not the most popular bunch around.
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Not only is over a thousand Space Marines with ships, specialists etc a rather intimidating foe in itself, but since they are so influental they can bring down much more with them than just their homeworld.
It's certainly not a dime a dozen event.
Yeah, because we have seen how over ten thousand years traitor chapters with help of chaos choked IoM to death, such horrendous irresistible force Sorry, its rather poke into whole CSM ementalish fluff with Failbaddon in the vanguard I always imagine CSM as laying on warp beach with bloody mojito and straw, watching sunset...sorry, eyeofterrorset and mumbling "Oh yeah brother, this is much better than some crusade. Did you see those daemonette chics over there? Lets noise them...har har har"
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Not only is over a thousand Space Marines with ships, specialists etc a rather intimidating foe in itself, but since they are so influental they can bring down much more with them than just their homeworld.
It's certainly not a dime a dozen event.
Yeah, because we have seen how over ten thousand years traitor chapters with help of chaos choked IoM to death, such horrendous irresistible force Sorry, its rather poke into whole CSM ementalish fluff with Failbaddon in the vanguard I always imagine CSM as laying on warp beach with bloody mojito and straw, watching sunset...sorry, eyeofterrorset and mumbling "Oh yeah brother, this is much better than some crusade. Did you see those daemonette chics over there? Lets noise them...har har har"
Abaddon's actually won the war on Cadia as of the old fluff on the 13th Black Crusade (which is now in limbo), and the Failbaddon meme is old and unfunny, and isn't even related to Abaddon's crusades (which never had the goal of reaching Terra), and rather the model being a weighty piece of crap.
Indeed I hate the fail abbadon quote too its quite annoying actually. Still most chaos incursions occur because of humans and normally the guard are the ones who put them down. Then if chaos space marines(which is more rare than loyalist space marines) are involved depending on the number. Then space marines might jump in.
Still In many books CSM say they most propagate and take care of the cults to get anything done and recruit humans. Thats an aspect I really like.
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Not only is over a thousand Space Marines with ships, specialists etc a rather intimidating foe in itself, but since they are so influental they can bring down much more with them than just their homeworld.
It's certainly not a dime a dozen event.
Yeah, because we have seen how over ten thousand years traitor chapters with help of chaos choked IoM to death, such horrendous irresistible force Sorry, its rather poke into whole CSM ementalish fluff with Failbaddon in the vanguard I always imagine CSM as laying on warp beach with bloody mojito and straw, watching sunset...sorry, eyeofterrorset and mumbling "Oh yeah brother, this is much better than some crusade. Did you see those daemonette chics over there? Lets noise them...har har har"
Abaddon's actually won the war on Cadia as of the old fluff on the 13th Black Crusade (which is now in limbo), and the Failbaddon meme is old and unfunny, and isn't even related to Abaddon's crusades (which never had the goal of reaching Terra), and rather the model being a weighty piece of crap.
Oh I think its still funny I know about his handless model, but it still suits better to his achievements...ahem...GW is trying to retcon him to glory, but he is still chaos powered Warmaster who in 10000 years conquered most of the one planet... Im not saying he should match Macharius, but still... Sorry, whole CSM fluff supports my warp beach theory... (and still, I like CSM and traitor primarchs)
BrotherHaraldus wrote: You are aware he did plenty of other things during these 13 Crusades, right?
The bandwagon of cluelessness is getting old.
Yeah, like the Mojito... C'mon mate, dont take it so seriously. So he rather sucks in role of Warmaster and one of main threats to IoM from Chaos. I just fear Emperor will sooner die from Golden Throne malfunction than by hand of Abaddon the Promiser On the other, maybe he just counts on the fact that he is immortal and waits Creed to die with clever rhetorics "No no, we didnt choose to destroy Imperium of Men...yet...no no, my goal wasnt to kill false Emperor just right now...Its just as planned!"
The point of Space Marines is to strike at the support guns, the leadership, and the supply lines of an enemy army and then leave the Guard to actually see through the victory and ensure that the world is truly compliant. To quote from the 6th ed. Rulebook:
"...they are expected to accomplish almost impossible battlefield duties, lead vital assaults, confront the most horrendous of foes, and hold their positions no matter how hopeless the odds. Though their numbers are not great, they are sufficient for any task." (Page 183)
The Space Marines also act as a rallying point for the Guard. Guardsmen are very brave, but if you were charging into a trench full of daemons, would you rather have just your platoon around or your platoon plus a squad of enormous Superhuman soldiers carrying guns that shoot rounds that explode once they penetrate the enemy's body?
It is getting a bit old, but GW likes to help refresh it once in a while. Still one of the best threads on the 13th Black Crusade http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page Shame its been adapted and now fully retconned in the Chaos dex, which of course means it will never happen. With the Imperium being the most popular faction overall its going to be hard for other factions to shine. Just ask Eldar or Ork players about the fluff. Its the same in this thread, in reality the number of marines is so small that it should not really matter much. Yet in the fluff they almost single handedly murder everyone, while carying the guard on their backs towards victory. Its what annoys people, it goes SM>Imperial>most other factions
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Crickate wrote: The point of Space Marines is to strike at the support guns, the leadership, and the supply lines of an enemy army and then leave the Guard to actually see through the victory and ensure that the world is truly compliant. To quote from the 6th ed. Rulebook:
"...they are expected to accomplish almost impossible battlefield duties, lead vital assaults, confront the most horrendous of foes, and hold their positions no matter how hopeless the odds. Though their numbers are not great, they are sufficient for any task." (Page 183)
The Space Marines also act as a rallying point for the Guard. Guardsmen are very brave, but if you were charging into a trench full of daemons, would you rather have just your platoon around or your platoon plus a squad of enormous Superhuman soldiers carrying guns that shoot rounds that explode once they penetrate the enemy's body?
This is what is wrong with the rallying point, if its a company of marines, how can they man dozens or hunderds of miles of trenches while still being in visual contact? If its just the rumor that provides the rally point, why bother having them? A full blown deamon invasion will most likely overrun a planet anyway, regardless of 100 marines (who of course massacre 10 million deamons enabling the Imperium to win).
"But that's not how they're depicted in Black Library."
Spoiler:
Take the books Horus Rising and Galaxy in Flames. In Horus Rising the Luna Wolves use a Spear tip strike on 'Terra'. I can't remember the exact quote, but IIRC,somebody talked about how they would take out the head of the enemy and then leave the Army to stop the twitching body, or something along those lines. In Galaxy in Flames, Loken and some other Luna Wolves begin to question why they are massing 4 Legions together rather than just using a couple companies in a precision strike like they are used to.
As for the morale issue. Seeing is believing. Plus, eventually, if there actually were no Astartes around anywhere, rumors would start to be passed around in the ranks, which would be even more of a headache for the Administratum and Commissars because they would have to root out the rumors and kill Guardsmen. And even then the Guardsmen might begin to wonder what else isn't true and then heresy.
IMHO the SM are twofold, they are both a primary fighting force when at full strength and a spec-ops detachment. sometimes when they are the only forces around they will sweep in and take on prolonged engagements on a planet, though rarely as a full chapter, even in the codex fluff it states a that rarely does a whole chapter mobilize and when it does it is pretty serious for the IoM. Most of the time you would likely see at best a company sent, and then detachments made to handle the tough spots, spots that would take IG months of prolonged combat to subdue. the SM detachment would hit hard and fast and then move on to the next hotspot on the planet and leave the guardsmen to do cleanup. of course when it comes to recruiting worlds and such for the chapters themselves, they would be a lot more involved, most likely not having any Navy or IG support.
Note: Im probably late to the discussion and just skimmed the 8 pages of the thread, so if I am repeating, I apologize.
Crickate wrote: "But that's not how they're depicted in Black Library."
Spoiler:
Take the books Horus Rising and Galaxy in Flames. In Horus Rising the Luna Wolves use a Spear tip strike on 'Terra'. I can't remember the exact quote, but IIRC,somebody talked about how they would take out the head of the enemy and then leave the Army to stop the twitching body, or something along those lines. In Galaxy in Flames, Loken and some other Luna Wolves begin to question why they are massing 4 Legions together rather than just using a couple companies in a precision strike like they are used to.
As for the morale issue. Seeing is believing. Plus, eventually, if there actually were no Astartes around anywhere, rumors would start to be passed around in the ranks, which would be even more of a headache for the Administratum and Commissars because they would have to root out the rumors and kill Guardsmen. And even then the Guardsmen might begin to wonder what else isn't true and then heresy.
For the spoiler, its the Great Crusade, in other books in the series we have the full might of several combined legions crushing planets. In some books they are described as the spear tip, yet in others they are clearly the spear, going around and killing every last bit of resistance. They dont adhere to a single role but switch between the two.
On the morale issue, seeing is believing, yet the people of the Imperium see that Guilleman is dead in a statis field and still believe he's healing (impossible untill BL book shortly). Most guardsmen have never seen a marine in their life, yet they believe they exist. Most citizens dont even know about traitor marines, what they do to worship the Emperor the next planet over, most dont even know life outside their factory. If marines dissappeared and the higher ups made a deal, that just like with Chaos we know but we will pretend not to, no one would be the wiser. Its like the God-Emperor, nobody ever sees him, yet the still believe in him, you dont have to see them to believe in them. 'A small mind is easily filled with faith'.
To sidestep the previous discussions but still be on topic, I think there *is* a role for the marines which does need re emphasising.
Back in the RT days there was a mention of assault marines (before Assault Marines per se existed) as ship boarding troops. I think recently FW has released some kits along this line actually but it's actually a really good role for them. I always liked the idea of a smaller ship like a thunderhawk opening up and releasing marines into space. Those exhausts on the backpacks used to be thrusters/stabilisers and could be used to maneuver in space.
Imagine single marines flying out of the darkness to latch onto the side of a hull. Then either hacking their way in with power axes/fists/melta bombs. They could split up and set charges to cause dozens of hull breaches (because vacuum isn't a problem for them, but your average lifeform..)or storm an engine room/bridge. A single squad of marines might not be able to conquer a planet but they can certainly take a ship or orbital defense station. I honestly think that's more what they'd do when a planet revolts- rock up and clear the orbital defenses, then drop pod onto any ground based ones that are remaining to threaten a landing fleet.
Melissia wrote: "The point of Space Marines is to strike at the support guns, the leadership, and the supply lines of an enemy army"
But that's not how they're depicted in Black Library.
To be fair, BL's main aim is to tell good stories (though milage tends to vary on that), and having the Marines doing big, heroic stuff is usually more exciting.
And, to fair, the Marines aren't a very unifrom entity to begin with, plenty of variation in mindset there. And it's not like BL strongly enforces 40K canon either, BL authors seem to have quite a lot of freedom in how they depict a faction.
Kojiro wrote: Back in the RT days there was a mention of assault marines (before Assault Marines per se existed) as ship boarding troops. I think recently FW has released some kits along this line actually but it's actually a really good role for them. I always liked the idea of a smaller ship like a thunderhawk opening up and releasing marines into space. Those exhausts on the backpacks used to be thrusters/stabilisers and could be used to maneuver in space.
That's a cool idea actually. Reminds me of a few episodes of Red vs Blue.
Agreed.
I can't believe I have come back from the dead to agree.
But Space Marine's in their current role as warrior monks is only so much fun. There are a few oddball chapters most notably the Raptors Chapter who still follow the original role of the Space Marines which is to be the knife in the back of an enemy.
That is their role after all.
Space Marines do not win wars.
The Imperial Guard win wars. Who is it that protects humanity on every front? The Imperial Guard. Who is it that they call to bring down the hammer upon the enemies of mankind? The Imperial Guard. What stopped the 13th Black Crusade? The Imperial Guard.
Wars in the 41st Millenia are not won by political intrigue but by war and war alone.
There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...
I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.
Kojiro wrote: There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...
I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.
Or fighting underwater. On gas planets, on planets like mercury. GW is missing alot of cool ideas.
I want my space marines to fight on a planet like neptune or Mercury. Where if you remove your helmet your skin will boil.
Kojiro wrote: There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...
I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.
Yeah the enviromental systems are drastically under used. And whatever happened to Camo space marines? Oh yeah Girlyman said camo was not honorable. Jerk...
Kojiro wrote: There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...
I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.
Yeah the enviromental systems are drastically under used. And whatever happened to Camo space marines? Oh yeah Girlyman said camo was not honorable. Jerk...
Kojiro wrote: There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...
I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.
Yeah the enviromental systems are drastically under used. And whatever happened to Camo space marines? Oh yeah Girlyman said camo was not honorable. Jerk...
I think the link is broken nothing came up. What annoyed me about the Camo retcon was that their were chapters that had alternate camo schemes some chapters even having camo worked into their normal heraldry back in RT.
Kojiro wrote: There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...
I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.
Yeah the enviromental systems are drastically under used. And whatever happened to Camo space marines? Oh yeah Girlyman said camo was not honorable. Jerk...
I think the link is broken nothing came up. What annoyed me about the Camo retcon was that their were chapters that had alternate camo schemes some chapters even having camo worked into their normal heraldry back in RT.
But yeah the camo retcon was dumb. Thats why my chapter adopts camo, and they use camo so much they actually forgotten their original color scheme because, why would need to use it? Apart from Ceremonial Purposes?
Kojiro wrote: There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...
I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.
Yeah the enviromental systems are drastically under used. And whatever happened to Camo space marines? Oh yeah Girlyman said camo was not honorable. Jerk...
I think the link is broken nothing came up. What annoyed me about the Camo retcon was that their were chapters that had alternate camo schemes some chapters even having camo worked into their normal heraldry back in RT.
I want the space marines to get away from this dark romanticism and this glorification of war and go back to being soldiers fighting a war.
Because even the Knights of the crusades were not like that. If you offered them honor over money. The Knight would not hesitate to chop your head off and steal the money.
Kojiro wrote: There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...
I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.
Yeah the enviromental systems are drastically under used. And whatever happened to Camo space marines? Oh yeah Girlyman said camo was not honorable. Jerk...
I think the link is broken nothing came up. What annoyed me about the Camo retcon was that their were chapters that had alternate camo schemes some chapters even having camo worked into their normal heraldry back in RT.
But yeah the camo retcon was dumb. Thats why my chapter adopts camo, and they use camo so much they actually forgotten their original color scheme because, why would need to use it? Apart from Ceremonial Purposes?
Not really, with the tech in W40K, camo won't do much when everyone but guardsmen run around with augmented HUDs that automatically target enemies and spot them for everyone else to see, etc. Camo only makes sense if your normal chapter colors aren't the typical dull hues with modern W40K and have bright pastel colors, such as the Imperial Fists or the Howling Griffons. Otherwise their sensors will simply tag enemies and render any camo mute when they can simply scan for lifesigns, local metals, movement, etc.
The kind of camo Astartes really need to use is paints that better absorb heat radiation to damped their appearance on devices similar to radar. Camo just isn't going to do anything really useful for your average eight fool tall Astartes when all the enemies that pose a threat to his continued survival either have augmented vision or hyper evolved senses capable of smelling him over a mile away.
Kojiro wrote: There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...
I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.
Yeah the enviromental systems are drastically under used. And whatever happened to Camo space marines? Oh yeah Girlyman said camo was not honorable. Jerk...
I think the link is broken nothing came up. What annoyed me about the Camo retcon was that their were chapters that had alternate camo schemes some chapters even having camo worked into their normal heraldry back in RT.
But yeah the camo retcon was dumb. Thats why my chapter adopts camo, and they use camo so much they actually forgotten their original color scheme because, why would need to use it? Apart from Ceremonial Purposes?
Not really, with the tech in W40K, camo won't do much when everyone but guardsmen run around with augmented HUDs that automatically target enemies and spot them for everyone else to see, etc. Camo only makes sense if your normal chapter colors aren't the typical dull hues with modern W40K and have bright pastel colors, such as the Imperial Fists or the Howling Griffons. Otherwise their sensors will simply tag enemies and render any camo mute when they can simply scan for lifesigns, local metals, movement, etc.
The kind of camo Astartes really need to use is paints that better absorb heat radiation to damped their appearance on devices similar to radar. Camo just isn't going to do anything really useful for your average eight fool tall Astartes when all the enemies that pose a threat to his continued survival either have augmented vision or hyper evolved senses capable of smelling him over a mile away.
Or infra-red. I would think Powered Armor generates a lot of heat, since, you know, it has a mini power plant built into it. Maybe that's why the marines tend to have such gaudy heraldry - to deflect radiation.
Kojiro wrote: There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...
I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.
Yeah the enviromental systems are drastically under used. And whatever happened to Camo space marines? Oh yeah Girlyman said camo was not honorable. Jerk...
I think the link is broken nothing came up. What annoyed me about the Camo retcon was that their were chapters that had alternate camo schemes some chapters even having camo worked into their normal heraldry back in RT.
But yeah the camo retcon was dumb. Thats why my chapter adopts camo, and they use camo so much they actually forgotten their original color scheme because, why would need to use it? Apart from Ceremonial Purposes?
Not really, with the tech in W40K, camo won't do much when everyone but guardsmen run around with augmented HUDs that automatically target enemies and spot them for everyone else to see, etc. Camo only makes sense if your normal chapter colors aren't the typical dull hues with modern W40K and have bright pastel colors, such as the Imperial Fists or the Howling Griffons. Otherwise their sensors will simply tag enemies and render any camo mute when they can simply scan for lifesigns, local metals, movement, etc.
The kind of camo Astartes really need to use is paints that better absorb heat radiation to damped their appearance on devices similar to radar. Camo just isn't going to do anything really useful for your average eight fool tall Astartes when all the enemies that pose a threat to his continued survival either have augmented vision or hyper evolved senses capable of smelling him over a mile away.
Or infra-red. I would think Powered Armor generates a lot of heat, since, you know, it has a mini power plant built into it. Maybe that's why the marines tend to have such gaudy heraldry - to deflect radiation.
That as well. Having a miniature star in your back is going to produce a monster of a heat signature. The ceramite plates probably work both ways- both soaking up lasers harmlessly and absorbing the heat of their reactor.
Kojiro wrote: There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...
I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.
Yeah the enviromental systems are drastically under used. And whatever happened to Camo space marines? Oh yeah Girlyman said camo was not honorable. Jerk...
I think the link is broken nothing came up. What annoyed me about the Camo retcon was that their were chapters that had alternate camo schemes some chapters even having camo worked into their normal heraldry back in RT.
But yeah the camo retcon was dumb. Thats why my chapter adopts camo, and they use camo so much they actually forgotten their original color scheme because, why would need to use it? Apart from Ceremonial Purposes?
Not really, with the tech in W40K, camo won't do much when everyone but guardsmen run around with augmented HUDs that automatically target enemies and spot them for everyone else to see, etc. Camo only makes sense if your normal chapter colors aren't the typical dull hues with modern W40K and have bright pastel colors, such as the Imperial Fists or the Howling Griffons. Otherwise their sensors will simply tag enemies and render any camo mute when they can simply scan for lifesigns, local metals, movement, etc.
The kind of camo Astartes really need to use is paints that better absorb heat radiation to damped their appearance on devices similar to radar. Camo just isn't going to do anything really useful for your average eight fool tall Astartes when all the enemies that pose a threat to his continued survival either have augmented vision or hyper evolved senses capable of smelling him over a mile away.
Or infra-red. I would think Powered Armor generates a lot of heat, since, you know, it has a mini power plant built into it. Maybe that's why the marines tend to have such gaudy heraldry - to deflect radiation.
That as well. Having a miniature star in your back is going to produce a monster of a heat signature. The ceramite plates probably work both ways- both soaking up lasers harmlessly and absorbing the heat of their reactor.
TiamatRoar wrote: I thought even basic Imperial Guard camo was mad crazy useful on the table top.
They are, and the Imperium has other tech to remove heat signatures from the human body as well (though if they're good enough to remove power armor heat signature, I don't know).
In response to the OP, as is, the Space Marines don't work at all once you start to really look at them in the numbers that are described as existing. They really do need a rethinking, as is, for any number of reasons, they work largely simply "just because" and start looking really silly with any sort of scrutiny applied.
Vaktathi wrote: In response to the OP, as is, the Space Marines don't work at all once you start to really look at them in the numbers that are described as existing. They really do need a rethinking, as is, for any number of reasons, they work largely simply "just because" and start looking really silly with any sort of scrutiny applied.
Vaktathi wrote: In response to the OP, as is, the Space Marines don't work at all once you start to really look at them in the numbers that are described as existing. They really do need a rethinking, as is, for any number of reasons, they work largely simply "just because" and start looking really silly with any sort of scrutiny applied.
Yeah... Just like Tyranids.
Or Orks.
Et.c.
It's just part of how the setting works.
The Space Marines are particularly bad however. You can handwave a lot of stuff, or just attribute it to sciences we do not yet understand, but with the Space Marines they are just so limited numerically that they be a completely inconsquential military element, equal in utility only to a few hours worth of IG recruitment in their entirety, and so rare that they'd only be where they're needed in the rarest of circumstances. Attrition would destroy them utterly in years (and even then only because they spend so much time in transit, otherwise it'd be months or weeks), and would be utterly incapable of fighting the conventional battles they're all too often described as fighting as there's just not enough of them to cover enough ground to prevent encirclement and destruction by even relatively small opposing forces.
This is to say nothing of having to manage planets, mini-empires, fleets, crew vehicles, etc.
Vaktathi wrote: In response to the OP, as is, the Space Marines don't work at all once you start to really look at them in the numbers that are described as existing. They really do need a rethinking, as is, for any number of reasons, they work largely simply "just because" and start looking really silly with any sort of scrutiny applied.
Yeah... Just like Tyranids.
Or Orks.
Et.c.
It's just part of how the setting works.
The Space Marines are particularly bad however. You can handwave a lot of stuff, or just attribute it to sciences we do not yet understand, but with the Space Marines they are just so limited numerically that they be a completely inconsquential military element, equal in utility only to a few hours worth of IG recruitment in their entirety, and so rare that they'd only be where they're needed in the rarest of circumstances. Attrition would destroy them utterly in years (and even then only because they spend so much time in transit, otherwise it'd be months or weeks), and would be utterly incapable of fighting the conventional battles they're all too often described as fighting as there's just not enough of them to cover enough ground to prevent encirclement and destruction by even relatively small opposing forces.
This is to say nothing of having to manage planets, mini-empires, fleets, crew vehicles, etc.
You have to remember they're a pretty much an army of distilled Captain Americas.
Vaktathi wrote: In response to the OP, as is, the Space Marines don't work at all once you start to really look at them in the numbers that are described as existing. They really do need a rethinking, as is, for any number of reasons, they work largely simply "just because" and start looking really silly with any sort of scrutiny applied.
Yeah... Just like Tyranids.
Or Orks.
Et.c.
It's just part of how the setting works.
The Space Marines are particularly bad however. You can handwave a lot of stuff, or just attribute it to sciences we do not yet understand, but with the Space Marines they are just so limited numerically that they be a completely inconsequential military element, equal in utility only to a few hours worth of IG recruitment in their entirety, and so rare that they'd only be where they're needed in the rarest of circumstances. Attrition would destroy them utterly in years (and even then only because they spend so much time in transit, otherwise it'd be months or weeks), and would be utterly incapable of fighting the conventional battles they're all too often described as fighting as there's just not enough of them to cover enough ground to prevent encirclement and destruction by even relatively small opposing forces.
This is to say nothing of having to manage planets, mini-empires, fleets, crew vehicles, etc.
That and distrubstion of resources, maintaining trade routes/trade pacts, ensuring hardware is getting to the right places on time. I've played a fair few games where you have to micromanage all that stuff and it is just a head ache at best.
Anyway I have to disagree, where does it say that it takes a miniature star to power up a Space Marine's Suit? I thought it was a kinetic generator which is powered and stores energy from movement.
You have to remember they're a pretty much an army of distilled Captain Americas.
They are flawed. They were a temporary solution to the problem. There was a next stage after the space marines. So they are not as an all powerful creations as they once were. They have gotten weaker.
Asherian Command wrote: Anyway I have to disagree, where does it say that it takes a miniature star to power up a Space Marine's Suit? I thought it was a kinetic generator which is powered and stores energy from movement.
It's not a miniature star, but it is referred to as a micro fusion reactor and sometimes an atomic chain stack. Occasionally (such as in the RPG) they're even said to be functionally limitless, never needing recharging. How much they can actually put out at once is questionable but it's enough to power the suit so it's considerable. The real question is why marines don't have a laser back up weapon attached to their helmets or wrists. A point and fire laser attached to your head, while not the most powerful weapon, would have to be useful on a battlefield where melee fights occur, even if it's just to stun that ork who is all up in your face or that third 'gaunt trying to get in from above.
Asherian Command wrote: Anyway I have to disagree, where does it say that it takes a miniature star to power up a Space Marine's Suit? I thought it was a kinetic generator which is powered and stores energy from movement.
It's not a miniature star, but it is referred to as a micro fusion reactor and sometimes an atomic chain stack. Occasionally (such as in the RPG) they're even said to be functionally limitless, never needing recharging. How much they can actually put out at once is questionable but it's enough to power the suit so it's considerable. The real question is why marines don't have a laser back up weapon attached to their helmets or wrists. A point and fire laser attached to your head, while not the most powerful weapon, would have to be useful on a battlefield where melee fights occur, even if it's just to stun that ork who is all up in your face or that third 'gaunt trying to get in from above.
Because Grimdark.
GW does not want to overload space marines with gear that might increase their survival chances.
Orks make more sense than Space Marines BECAUSE of their numbers, however. To me, Orks are one of the factions that make the MOST sense in 40k (the other being IG).
Melissia is right. There is a profound disconnection between the number of time space marines would see combat and their place in the fluff. They make up maybe 50% of 40 armies but would make up less than .001% of troops on 40K battlefields.
Well I did say less than 0.001%... I was merely trying to illustrate the orders of magnitude difference between the frequency of game marines in combat and fluff marines.
But then I suppose it's like procedural crime shows- for every gripping CSI/courtroom 'show' there's a doze 'Yep, prints here, got him' shows we don't see.
Don't include the PDF. Because Rarely have I heard them actually holding the line.
That's because you obviously don't read the right books. In Planetkill, there's several stories concerning PDF troopers heroically throwing back the enemy long enough for reinforcements to arrive.
Hell, in Titanicus, one of the main characters is a PDF trooper who fights on despite losing half of her platoon to an ambush during their call up, and fighting against Dark Mechanicus hunter-killer servitors. The main character who saves the day, in fact, is a PDF tank commander who lost his tank like halfway through but soldiered on regardless.
Don't include the PDF. Because Rarely have I heard them actually holding the line.
That's because you obviously don't read the right books. In Planetkill, there's several stories concerning PDF troopers heroically throwing back the enemy long enough for reinforcements to arrive.
Hell, in Titanicus, one of the main characters is a PDF trooper who fights on despite losing half of her platoon to an ambush during their call up, and fighting against Dark Mechanicus hunter-killer servitors. The main character who saves the day, in fact, is a PDF tank commander who lost his tank like halfway through but soldiered on regardless.
Uh huh. Keep dreaming.*
Please know I am joking. Because in most 40k fluff they are wiped out to a man.
Don't include the PDF. Because Rarely have I heard them actually holding the line.
That's because you obviously don't read the right books. In Planetkill, there's several stories concerning PDF troopers heroically throwing back the enemy long enough for reinforcements to arrive.
Hell, in Titanicus, one of the main characters is a PDF trooper who fights on despite losing half of her platoon to an ambush during their call up, and fighting against Dark Mechanicus hunter-killer servitors. The main character who saves the day, in fact, is a PDF tank commander who lost his tank like halfway through but soldiered on regardless.
Uh huh. Keep dreaming.*
Please know I am joking. Because in most 40k fluff they are wiped out to a man.
Haha, alright.
And being wiped out is still a more heroic, self-defining stand than many modern armies would make against unseen and unknown space-horrors. Don't let people knock the PDF!
Don't include the PDF. Because Rarely have I heard them actually holding the line.
That's because you obviously don't read the right books. In Planetkill, there's several stories concerning PDF troopers heroically throwing back the enemy long enough for reinforcements to arrive.
Hell, in Titanicus, one of the main characters is a PDF trooper who fights on despite losing half of her platoon to an ambush during their call up, and fighting against Dark Mechanicus hunter-killer servitors. The main character who saves the day, in fact, is a PDF tank commander who lost his tank like halfway through but soldiered on regardless.
Uh huh. Keep dreaming.*
Please know I am joking. Because in most 40k fluff they are wiped out to a man.
Spoiler:
Yeah, the PDF always tends to be the chew toy in W40K, even the Guard gets smacked around less than PDF's that aren't from fortress worlds like Ultramar. The PDF do their job and do it well- be massacred to make the enemy look like a serious threat and send an emergency emotional request for aid until the signal is dramatically cut off.
As for the most effective faction? Chaos. Because Chaos won.
space marines are portrayed much weaker then thay actually are in the table top game for balance sake, being more accurately portrayed in the rpgs by fantasy flight. using that game as a guideline a marine just out of the scout company and presented with his PA weighs in at ruffly 8000pts a basic guard trooper straight out of basic at 0pts and thats without any specialization. a techmarine is scary for one reason they are also a fully trained tech priest of mars in the form of a marine. they can broadcast a jamming signal that will cripple comms fake voice prints and bruteforce through firewalls. all it takes from there is proper placement of assets to cripple an enemy force. with the support a a few battle brothers behind enemy lines they could take out any and all communications with command. cut off the head of the snake as it were.
People tend to assume that Marines are useless and weak due to their tabletop stats, but that is just one interpretation. In the Standard Bearer article of the WD where C:SM 5th ed was released, (I think it was that WD) that very issue was adressed. It was explained that the rules were not designed for a squad of Space Marines versus a massive horde of orks, even if that might be a fair match-up in the 'real' 40K, because it is a lot less visually exciting than masses of Space Marines fighting masses of Orks.
An important thing to keep in mind before you claim Marines are as useless as you think they are. They are few, but commonly fight in locations that are very important strategically and they apply such truly massive force concentration that they just outclass most other options the Imperium has. And when you gather a good number of them, they can just carve a path through pretty much any resistance. They simply blow other forces out of the water when they are allowed to do when they want to do. On the defense, you can imagine the Marines as a rock in a body of water. Sure, the body of water may be the size of a large lake, but it still won't shatter the rock. On the offense, they are like a scalpel cutting into an unfortunate Dark Eldar victim. Ouchy.
One is just as free to interpret them as obsolete useless propaganda-machines, of course. But that is not 'the one right path'.
The universe of 40k is truly massive and yes there are a thousand chapters of space marines flying around but there not all actively in combat all the time.
A space marine is the stuff of legend and many guardsmen go there full life without ever seeing one unless their is dire need for them. Which for the shear weight in numbers of the imperial guard is very rare
Think of them as the SAS or SEAL teams you know there the best of the best and out their doing extremely dangerous stuff in the background but how often does your standard infantry man see one ?? It's very rare
The universe of 40k is truly massive and yes there are a thousand chapters of space marines flying around but there not all actively in combat all the time.
A space marine is the stuff of legend and many guardsmen go there full life without ever seeing one unless their is dire need for them. Which for the shear weight in numbers of the imperial guard is very rare
Think of them as the SAS or SEAL teams you know there the best of the best and out their doing extremely dangerous stuff in the background but how often does your standard infantry man see one ?? It's very rare
and let us hope it is a normal space marine and not the grey knights with the policy of killing off anyone who knew about them after the battle.
The universe of 40k is truly massive and yes there are a thousand chapters of space marines flying around but there not all actively in combat all the time.
A space marine is the stuff of legend and many guardsmen go there full life without ever seeing one unless their is dire need for them. Which for the shear weight in numbers of the imperial guard is very rare
Think of them as the SAS or SEAL teams you know there the best of the best and out their doing extremely dangerous stuff in the background but how often does your standard infantry man see one ?? It's very rare
and let us hope it is a normal space marine and not the grey knights with the policy of killing off anyone who knew about them after the battle.
Exactly my point I don't even think there is communication between worlds other than cries for help so even if a planet in your solar system has been visited by the space marines I doubt an imperial citizen would hear anything other than word of mouth from returning guardsmen or rogue traders
This is most probably why they are worshipped and revered as they because of the way they "save" the imperium. And because the human mind is fickle and has to believe in something despite the emperors best efforts
MechHaven wrote: space marines are portrayed much weaker then thay actually are in the table top game for balance sake, being more accurately portrayed in the rpgs by fantasy flight. using that game as a guideline a marine just out of the scout company and presented with his PA weighs in at ruffly 8000pts a basic guard trooper straight out of basic at 0pts and thats without any specialization. a techmarine is scary for one reason they are also a fully trained tech priest of mars in the form of a marine. they can broadcast a jamming signal that will cripple comms fake voice prints and bruteforce through firewalls. all it takes from there is proper placement of assets to cripple an enemy force. with the support a a few battle brothers behind enemy lines they could take out any and all communications with command. cut off the head of the snake as it were.
You're joking, right? FFG based their Space Marines on the Ultramarines movie... that is to say, if you're the main character, you are nigh-omnipotent, but if you aren't, then you're cannon fodder.
Space marines in the game can't possibly represent what they are supposed to be !!
Once in a GW store there was an event. It was 2000 Pts and they had 10 marines that's 200 points each and every one agreed their stats matched what a marine is supposed to be
And with the most competitive tau army I could muster I killed ONE !!
Although I would gladly take a price bump for them to be better and have better weapons and options ( this would have a knock on effect that everything else that isn't marines be cheaper so the game would just be back to square one)
Also people need to stop pulling out "you have ATSKNF and the combat squads" so what !!! Both are seriously overrated I think they should be allowed to choose whether or not they flee.
And combat squads just makes them easier to kill I never combat squaded since we've had the rule
Mellow wrote: The problem is that fluff wise Astartes are good enough to be crack covert troops but table top requires them to be less.
Of course this means the Alpha Legion are on the right track as they use covert tactics to achieve their goals instead of brute force.
No, it doesn't. This is a cop-out for people who think the tabletop Marines should be Movie-Marines, or who think the BL fluff should drive the TT game, rather than the two being entirely separate entities.
Want to make your Marines "crack, elite troops"?
Price them at 100 points for the bog-standard, vanilla Battle Brother. They come with a boltgun and one CCW.
All other wargear, because it is relics built specifically for the Astartes, costs extra (and premium!),
Or, like many people, you can reason that the tabletop games represent a non-ideal combat for Marines, where they'd ideally only fight, say... half the army or whatever at once.
Because rapid strikes and all that. Of course, that still leaves the fact that a force of marines can be wiped out by a single, competently led Guard platoon, but personally I see nothing wrong with that
MechHaven wrote: space marines are portrayed much weaker then thay actually are in the table top game for balance sake, being more accurately portrayed in the rpgs by fantasy flight. using that game as a guideline a marine just out of the scout company and presented with his PA weighs in at ruffly 8000pts a basic guard trooper straight out of basic at 0pts and thats without any specialization. a techmarine is scary for one reason they are also a fully trained tech priest of mars in the form of a marine. they can broadcast a jamming signal that will cripple comms fake voice prints and bruteforce through firewalls. all it takes from there is proper placement of assets to cripple an enemy force. with the support a a few battle brothers behind enemy lines they could take out any and all communications with command. cut off the head of the snake as it were.
You're joking, right? FFG based their Space Marines on the Ultramarines movie... that is to say, if you're the main character, you are nigh-omnipotent, but if you aren't, then you're cannon fodder.
Sadly in most FFG I have played in and GMed as, the Captains die first. It is quite weird.
But yeah usually main characters are nigh invincible and as the GM I usually kill them off first.
Melissia wrote: Or, like many people, you can reason that the tabletop games represent a non-ideal combat for Marines, where they'd ideally only fight, say... half the army or whatever at once.
Because rapid strikes and all that. Of course, that still leaves the fact that a force of marines can be wiped out by a single, competently led Guard platoon, but personally I see nothing wrong with that
I damn well can, but that is your own interpretation.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: People tend to assume that Marines are useless and weak due to their tabletop stats, but that is just one interpretation. In the Standard Bearer article of the WD where C:SM 5th ed was released, (I think it was that WD) that very issue was adressed. It was explained that the rules were not designed for a squad of Space Marines versus a massive horde of orks, even if that might be a fair match-up in the 'real' 40K, because it is a lot less visually exciting than masses of Space Marines fighting masses of Orks.
An important thing to keep in mind before you claim Marines are as useless as you think they are. They are few, but commonly fight in locations that are very important strategically and they apply such truly massive force concentration that they just outclass most other options the Imperium has. And when you gather a good number of them, they can just carve a path through pretty much any resistance. They simply blow other forces out of the water when they are allowed to do when they want to do. On the defense, you can imagine the Marines as a rock in a body of water. Sure, the body of water may be the size of a large lake, but it still won't shatter the rock. On the offense, they are like a scalpel cutting into an unfortunate Dark Eldar victim. Ouchy.
One is just as free to interpret them as obsolete useless propaganda-machines, of course. But that is not 'the one right path'.
Mellow wrote: The problem is that fluff wise Astartes are good enough to be crack covert troops but table top requires them to be less.
Of course this means the Alpha Legion are on the right track as they use covert tactics to achieve their goals instead of brute force.
No, it doesn't. This is a cop-out for people who think the tabletop Marines should be Movie-Marines, or who think the BL fluff should drive the TT game, rather than the two being entirely separate entities.
Want to make your Marines "crack, elite troops"?
Price them at 100 points for the bog-standard, vanilla Battle Brother. They come with a boltgun and one CCW.
All other wargear, because it is relics built specifically for the Astartes, costs extra (and premium!),
Now you can call your SM army "elite".
It already exists, except they get a few more pieces of wargear than that. 'Movie Marines' it's called. I have tried those rules. They are very interesting, playing 'lore marines' is a sorta unique experience, but the rules are outdated. Maybe I should see if I can update them?
Would be fun to see your Lore Marines, indeed. I could use a good laugh.
Although I'd just as much like the BL writers to write in such a way that the Marines work in a way that people can wrap their head around. You can claim 'it is a fantasy world' all you want, but the abilities of the Space Marines aren't determined by any fantastical ability, it is from easy to understand scientific effects that make them as powerful as they are. Don't get me wrong, they ARE powerful. But for them to matter as much as some of the more 'lenient' writers insist, there would certainly need to be more of them. An easy fix to numbers would harm nothing and gain so much.
I agree a numbers fix would be a huge help. And it would be easy to implement, too. I mean, we all know how good the Adminustratum is at record keeping. All GW has to do is say that there are around a thousand KNOWN chapters of SMs, and a whole lot more that are still out there, but their paperwork got lost during the Age of Apostasy or something. Or hell, they could just say "Ten thousand Chapters of a thousand warriors" instead of just a thousand Chapters.
Yes, I know that ten million SMs isn't a lot given the scale of the galaxy, but it's a lot more reasonable when you realize it means there would be several thousand Chapters in each segmentum, and likely one whole Chapter per sector (meaning they wouldn't have to move around as much to get to warzones).
squidhills wrote: I agree a numbers fix would be a huge help. And it would be easy to implement, too. I mean, we all know how good the Adminustratum is at record keeping. All GW has to do is say that there are around a thousand KNOWN chapters of SMs, and a whole lot more that are still out there, but their paperwork got lost during the Age of Apostasy or something. Or hell, they could just say "Ten thousand Chapters of a thousand warriors" instead of just a thousand Chapters.
Yes, I know that ten million SMs isn't a lot given the scale of the galaxy, but it's a lot more reasonable when you realize it means there would be several thousand Chapters in each segmentum, and likely one whole Chapter per sector (meaning they wouldn't have to move around as much to get to warzones).
That is why people create their own universes.
Just add a subtle difference and say that the 40k universe instead of having a thousand chapters, has ten thousand chapters. (which makes more sense)
Why would there be several thousand Chapters in a Segmentum? Where are the hundreds of master artisan Forgeworlds cranking out that many suits of Power Armor, mastercrafted boltguns, Land Raiders, Predators, Land Speeders, Terminator armor, Dreadnought chassis, etc etc.
Having ten million Space Marines (or more) requires a much larger infrastructure to exist to support them, which makes things a whole lot less grimdark.
Psienesis wrote: Why would there be several thousand Chapters in a Segmentum? Where are the hundreds of master artisan Forgeworlds cranking out that many suits of Power Armor, mastercrafted boltguns, Land Raiders, Predators, Land Speeders, Terminator armor, Dreadnought chassis, etc etc.
Having ten million Space Marines (or more) requires a much larger infrastructure to exist to support them, which makes things a whole lot less grimdark.
Not really. It just adds more chapters to the mix. It gives more depth, instead of a small war that the imperium is currently experiencing, Ten thousand chapters sounds more reasonable.
And less grimdark? It is already darker than black. They could use some boost of moral.
It is what is driving people away, a change of numbers would be welcomed by the fans.
brother marcus wrote: Space marines in the game can't possibly represent what they are supposed to be !!
Once in a GW store there was an event. It was 2000 Pts and they had 10 marines that's 200 points each and every one agreed their stats matched what a marine is supposed to be
And with the most competitive tau army I could muster I killed ONE !!
That sounds a bit extreme... I don't think that Marines are that powerful in fluff. I don't recall reading any stories where ten Marines outfight an entire army by themselves in a straight fight.
The stats only go to 10. There's only so many things in the setting that you can give 7s, 8s and 9s to before you break the mechanics of the game.
If a Primarch is supposed to be 10s across the board, then the GE will need to be, like, 30s, and you're wanting standard SM to be, like, 7s.
That's going to require an individual SM to be 150 points a pop, because they generally only deploy in squads to do one thing.
So you get 5 dudes on the board (your wargear is going to cost more than the Marines.... you can replace a Space Marine, you can't replace the Terminator Armor he's in) and you're facing down.... let's say, Necrons.... who should, by their fluff, have RP of 2+ at all times, regardless of how they die. Sweep them? Their "dead" don't care, they just reanimate and rise up behind your lines... now you're trapped between more Necrons and the Necrons you thought you just killed.
Also, it will be your 5 guys against 1000 Necrons, because they go big, or they don't go at all.
Basically, every faction is better in the BL books they appear in, because BL's job is to tell an exciting story.
brother marcus wrote: Space marines in the game can't possibly represent what they are supposed to be !!
Once in a GW store there was an event. It was 2000 Pts and they had 10 marines that's 200 points each and every one agreed their stats matched what a marine is supposed to be
And with the most competitive tau army I could muster I killed ONE !!
That sounds a bit extreme... I don't think that Marines are that powerful in fluff. I don't recall reading any stories where ten Marines outfight an entire army by themselves in a straight fight.
The 'movie marine' stats place each Marine at 100 points, and seem reasonable.
I find that the writers for some of the Xenos races certainly don't buff them to fanboi levels like the Space Marine writers do...not even close. They tell an exciting story without trampling all over the basics of war logistics.
Psienesis wrote: Why would there be several thousand Chapters in a Segmentum? Where are the hundreds of master artisan Forgeworlds cranking out that many suits of Power Armor, mastercrafted boltguns, Land Raiders, Predators, Land Speeders, Terminator armor, Dreadnought chassis, etc etc.
Having ten million Space Marines (or more) requires a much larger infrastructure to exist to support them, which makes things a whole lot less grimdark.
Given that much of the equipment used by SMs is handed down from generation to generation over millenia, you wouldn't need to add hundreds of Forge Worlds to the setting to arm ten million marines. Just make older power armor marks common in your army and say that they've been on a gradual re-armament plan for the last 10,000 years and have almost 50% of their troops in mk7 armor. Younger Chapters would have to make do with older gear, as the newer Chapters get their primogenitor's hand-me-downs. Likewise, the tanks date back to the Horus Heresy (when there were a LOT more factories cranking out SM gear, as there wasn't as much material directed at the regular army. Hell, why can't SM fortress worlds each have a manufactorum dedicated to producing their own equipment (frankly, I thought they all already did, except for fleet-based Chapters like the BTs and DAs)...? They wouldn't need to crank out the numbers of tanks and guns that the Guard use, as (according to fluff) the SMs make a habit of re-using and repairing damaged tanks and drednaughts (unlike the IG, who just make a new 'Russ because it's easier than trying to patch the holes in the old one).
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than it is to take it literally.
Is breaking forum rule #1 really worth it to somehow try to lessen his argument?
..) so any Quest for concepts the company doesn't understand looks lost from start...
