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What do you need to do to take a world? You kill all its defenders, or you take out its leadership and look to get the bulkof the enemy forces degraded to the point you can move about at will. Talking out local industrial targets will also assist. As marines can effectively strike at will, all they need to do is drop into the key targets and turn them to dust and its likely the enemy becomes combat ineffective, certainly against Marinelike targets. For an agri-world with limited armed forces and probably only 1 or 2 major cities, a squad of marines is probably all it takes to cream the enemy leadership and break a couple of strongholds to the point where Imperial sympathisers can come to the fore and take over again.

 Flinty wrote:
you take out its leadership and look to get the bulkof the enemy forces degraded to the point you can move about at will.

Yeah that worked so well against iraq and afghanistan.

 Melissia wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
you take out its leadership and look to get the bulkof the enemy forces degraded to the point you can move about at will.

Yeah that worked so well against iraq and afghanistan.

Lucky that they are not attacking iraq and afghanistan, then.

Also I doubt the U.S army had Space Marines.

Apples and oranges...

They're attacking far more advanced, far more hostile worlds, with billions of people that oppose the strange, inhuman invaders.

The comparison still fits. A demo charge exploded under a Space Marine's foot will still kill him as much as it will kill a human.

 Melissia wrote:
They're attacking far more advanced, far more hostile worlds, with billions of people that oppose the strange, inhuman invaders.

The comparison still fits. A demo charge exploded under a Space Marine's foot will still kill him as much as it will kill a human.

Apples and oranges. We know both are different. We know everything is different. But not the proportions.

Comparing it to Iraq proves nothing.

 Peregrine wrote:
[No evidence, other than understanding the scale of the setting. The universe is too big and there are too few space marines for them to be relevant. Even looking at just a single planet you end up with ridiculous situations like a chapter being spread so thinly over a continent that each space marine is miles away from his closest fellow marine. The only sensible way to interpret the fluff is that the most dramatic tales of space marine battles (for example, taking whole planets with a single squad) are nothing more than propaganda and religious devotion, and in reality space marines are roughly equivalent to what we see on the tabletop: decent elite infantry that die like any other infantry against heavy weapons.

This is my interpretation as well. In the fluff most stories would consider 100 Space Marines to be a pretty significant force, but if you think about it plainly it just makes no sense. Lets say the US was infested by Tyranids, and 100 Marines drop. That's 2 marines per state. How much ammunition could they possibly carry, each? I know "it's make believe, it doesn't have to make sense" is the most likely argument but there needs to be at least some basis in reality, or you can't suspend disbelief.

Also, as Melissia has said, most Space Marine fluff is incredibly boring, so that doesn't help.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
We know both are different.

No.

You can make that assertion all you want, but it is false. There is no difference between an insurgent blowing up a Space Marine and one blowing up a US Marine, except possibly the size of the explosive charge used.

 Melissia wrote:
They're attacking far more advanced, far more hostile worlds, with billions of people that oppose the strange, inhuman invaders.

The comparison still fits. A demo charge exploded under a Space Marine's foot will still kill him as much as it will kill a human.

They'll probably survive that unless it's meant to be anti-vehicular and not infantry or plasma based. But mines are unlikely to be effective at all unless it's a remotely detonated explosive.

Not to mention that traps don't even work on Astartes. Mines don't work well against Astates unless you line the floor of your throne-room with them, as Astartes don't have to hike through defenses. They just drop in right in the middle of them, be it from orbit or aircraft. Either that or they take a direct route to the capital by making their own doors through your walls.

Also depends on the fortress as well. A squad would likely ROFLStomp one of an argiworld made by normal humans, but be slaughtered by a fortress made by Iron Warriors as the floor opens up into a pit of mono-wires, explosives powerful enough to level a city block, etc.

 Wyzilla wrote:
They'll probably survive

Not according to the stats for demo charges in tabletop.

Or Dark Heresy for that matter.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Not to mention that traps don't even work on Astartes. Mines don't work well against Astates unless you line the floor of your throne-room with them, as Astartes don't have to hike through defenses.

You don't know what insurgents even ARE, do you?

THIS is what comparing apples and oranges looks like.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
They'll probably survive

Not according to the stats for demo charges in tabletop.

Or Dark Heresy for that matter.

Oh yeah, those they won't. But there's a big difference between a demo charge packed to kill infantry and one to kill Astartes- involving multiple factors including payload, detonation speed, placement, and explosive shaping. Or if it's plasma, which will leave the Astartes wondering where his legs went.

Also, there aren't really insurgents in W40K besides terrorists. Astartes aren't a police force like the American military's actions in the Middle East. They're only sent to bash faces in when the insurgents have taken over (and presumably in cahoots with Chaos, because you almost never see non-chas rebels). It's the Guard's job to police it, the Astartes just drop in, kill the leadership and/or blow up their HQ, communications, etc, then leave again to let the IG handle it. I don't think we've ever seen Astartes actually occupy a territory putting down insurgents.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Oh yeah, those they won't. But there's a big difference between a demo charge packed to kill infantry and one to kill Astartes

Irrelevant. They will do whatever it takes to remove the invaders from their planet.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also, there aren't really insurgents in W40K

Except when there are, which is all the time, and that is something the PDFs, Imperial Guard, Arbites, and Inquisition deal with rather consistently, to the point of it being a mundane thing for them.

The Astartes don't deal with it because they can't. They don't have the skills or the manpower for it.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Oh yeah, those they won't. But there's a big difference between a demo charge packed to kill infantry and one to kill Astartes

Irrelevant. They will do whatever it takes to remove the invaders from their planet.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also, there aren't really insurgents in W40K

Except when there are, which is all the time, and that is something the PDFs, Imperial Guard, Arbites, and Inquisition deal with rather consistently, to the point of it being a mundane thing for them.

The Astartes don't deal with it because they can't. They don't have the skills or the manpower for it.

Yes, because they're an offensive force best tasked with killing and defense by bolstering IG lines in the Eye of Terror. IIRC, one of the reasons why the Iron Warriors went traitor actually was the Imperium using them to garrison worlds, which is a job nearly all astartes loath and better apply themselves to constant warfare.

Space Marines are better compared to the allies in the Gulf War. They come in and smash the enemy to pieces, then leave. The IG are then the future Allied forces occupying the Middle East, as Space Marines will flatly refuse to garrison a world and occupy it, considering it a rightful waste of their abilities and them craving warfare. At best they might drop off a squad to help out IG forces dealing with insurgents increasing in size and gaining territory, but otherwise they couldn't care less and will only intervene with force if the insurgents become a powerful faction.

 Wyzilla wrote:
IIRC, one of the reasons why the Iron Warriors went traitor actually was the Imperium using them to garrison worlds

And then they immediately were used for world garrisons by Horus, proving that they were screwed no matter what they did.

If Space Marines cannot occupy a world they cannot conquer it. If the white house was bombed, that wouldn't count as having conquered the United States. Really, that'd probably do us a lot of good at this point.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
IIRC, one of the reasons why the Iron Warriors went traitor actually was the Imperium using them to garrison worlds

And then they immediately were used for world garrisons by Horus, proving that they were screwed no matter what they did.

If Space Marines cannot occupy a world they cannot conquer it. If the white house was bombed, that wouldn't count as having conquered the United States. Really, that'd probably do us a lot of good at this point.

No, but dropping into the White House, Pentagon, Supreme Court, Capitol, and hitting all nearby military bases while also attacking nuke sites to launch strikes on Russia and China while communications are brought down as other teams are also launched to bring down the Power Grid. The difference is that unlike modern countries, Hive Worlds cluster all their critical targets in the Hive City.

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
We know both are different.

No.

You can make that assertion all you want, but it is false. There is no difference between an insurgent blowing up a Space Marine and one blowing up a US Marine, except possibly the size of the explosive charge used.

Strawman. I never mentioned explosives. You were comparing US invading Iraq and Afghanistan to Marines invading a planet. I said those two were very different, and not necessarily in the proportions you think.

Stop making up things and telling me I've said them.

Thank you.

Also, there is no difference between an insurgent blowing up a couple of gretchin or an Imperator Titan.

Except possibly the size of the explosive charge used.

=)

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
We know both are different.

No.

You can make that assertion all you want, but it is false. There is no difference between an insurgent blowing up a Space Marine and one blowing up a US Marine, except possibly the size of the explosive charge used.

Strawman. I never mentioned explosives. You were comparing US invading Iraq and Afghanistan to Marines invading a planet. I said those two were very different, and not necessarily in the proportions you think.

Stop making up things and telling me I've said them.

Thank you.

Also, there is no difference between an insurgent blowing up a couple of gretchin or an Imperator Titan.

Except possibly the size of the explosive charge used.

=)

That last bit made me laugh.

While i think the Space Marines need more explaining i think they are a devestating force. As much as i hate them. But good points like ammo and so on really just show how flawed the idea is.

For example whats to stop the enemy just waltzing through the huge gaps in marine lines? The loss of a drop pod would be devestating. I doubt a marine would survive that kind of fall. In reality i do think they would have to rely on small hit fast and hard teams but even then they are pretty large even for that kind of thing.

I see them more as an important bolster to the imperial guard. And for doing minor scale (but major) operations to change the course of war.

Wait wait wait, so the Space Marines are attacking what planets again?

Chaos planets are probably hell-bent on resisting the marines - killing the leaders won't suddenly make the cultists go "eh, well, whatever, feth it, we surrender." They'll just go to ground, at worst, and uprise later. At best, they'll fight a long, grinding, war of ambush and attrition (the comparison to Iraq is apt) which is not what Space Marines do at all. So they can't conquer a Chaos world.

An Ork-held world - kill the leader, infighting starts. Fair enough. Except now you have a planet of bloodthirsty techno-barbarian guerillas who get stronger from killing things killing each other. Definitely a world conquered, expect tithe payments by the end of the day.

A Tyranid world - um, what? They're a hive-mind...

Tau - alright, the Space Marines are great against the smallest, weakest empire in the setting. Go Space Marines!

Eldar - don't really have 'worlds' as such - good luck deep-striking into a Craftworld and nailing the Seers.

Necrons - Teleport in, kill lord, fight hordes, fight reanimated lord, kill lord, fight reanimated hordes, fight reanimated lord...

Dark Eldar - This isn't really even a question, is it...

What other bad guys are there?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait wait wait, so the Space Marines are attacking what planets again?

Chaos planets are probably hell-bent on resisting the marines - killing the leaders won't suddenly make the cultists go "eh, well, whatever, feth it, we surrender." They'll just go to ground, at worst, and uprise later. At best, they'll fight a long, grinding, war of ambush and attrition (the comparison to Iraq is apt) which is not what Space Marines do at all. So they can't conquer a Chaos world.

An Ork-held world - kill the leader, infighting starts. Fair enough. Except now you have a planet of bloodthirsty techno-barbarian guerillas who get stronger from killing things killing each other. Definitely a world conquered, expect tithe payments by the end of the day.

A Tyranid world - um, what? They're a hive-mind...

Tau - alright, the Space Marines are great against the smallest, weakest empire in the setting. Go Space Marines!

Eldar - don't really have 'worlds' as such - good luck deep-striking into a Craftworld and nailing the Seers.

Necrons - Teleport in, kill lord, fight hordes, fight reanimated lord, kill lord, fight reanimated hordes, fight reanimated lord...

Dark Eldar - This isn't really even a question, is it...

What other bad guys are there?

Rebellions with Chaos backings by a sorcerer or two, those kinds of things. Or Chaos Cults dependent on Chaos Psykers.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait wait wait, so the Space Marines are attacking what planets again?

Chaos planets are probably hell-bent on resisting the marines - killing the leaders won't suddenly make the cultists go "eh, well, whatever, feth it, we surrender." They'll just go to ground, at worst, and uprise later. At best, they'll fight a long, grinding, war of ambush and attrition (the comparison to Iraq is apt) which is not what Space Marines do at all. So they can't conquer a Chaos world.

An Ork-held world - kill the leader, infighting starts. Fair enough. Except now you have a planet of bloodthirsty techno-barbarian guerillas who get stronger from killing things killing each other. Definitely a world conquered, expect tithe payments by the end of the day.

A Tyranid world - um, what? They're a hive-mind...

Tau - alright, the Space Marines are great against the smallest, weakest empire in the setting. Go Space Marines!

Eldar - don't really have 'worlds' as such - good luck deep-striking into a Craftworld and nailing the Seers.

Necrons - Teleport in, kill lord, fight hordes, fight reanimated lord, kill lord, fight reanimated hordes, fight reanimated lord...

Dark Eldar - This isn't really even a question, is it...

What other bad guys are there?

Rebellions with Chaos backings by a sorcerer or two, those kinds of things. Or Chaos Cults dependent on Chaos Psykers.

So what would stop the cultists, even after the sorcerers are killed, from going to ground?

You're telling me that Space Marines exist solely to fight against rebellions which are caused by mass planetary mind-control utilized by a psyker who must be one of the most powerful individuals in the known universe (and therefore one of the rarest) in order to accomplish this task?

Derp.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Rebellions with Chaos backings by a sorcerer or two, those kinds of things. Or Chaos Cults dependent on Chaos Psykers.

So what you're saying is that while IG/navy forces can conquer pretty much any planet given enough time and resources, space marines are limited to dealing with rebellions/cults/etc which are utterly dependent on a small number of leaders and have no way to replace their chain of command. Remind me again why exactly anyone would bother to send a drop pod full of screaming idiots with chainswords to go fight a duel with the sorcerer when they could just drop a nuke on him from orbit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tau - alright, the Space Marines are great against the smallest, weakest empire in the setting. Go Space Marines!

They probably can't even deal with Tau very well since the Tau have the AA defenses to make a drop pod assault suicide (unless you want to sacrifice a whole chapter to get a single squad to make it to the surface) and the strategic mobility to pack up and leave if the marines are a viable threat to their HQ. So in the end you're left with the mighty warrior heroes of the Imperium finishing off a sacrificial drone squad while the Tau leadership flies off in a Manta.

Yeah, this is why Space Marines are only really useful to the Imperium when they are supporting the Imperial Guard and/or the Imperial Navy.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait wait wait, so the Space Marines are attacking what planets again?

Chaos planets are probably hell-bent on resisting the marines - killing the leaders won't suddenly make the cultists go "eh, well, whatever, feth it, we surrender." They'll just go to ground, at worst, and uprise later. At best, they'll fight a long, grinding, war of ambush and attrition (the comparison to Iraq is apt) which is not what Space Marines do at all. So they can't conquer a Chaos world.

An Ork-held world - kill the leader, infighting starts. Fair enough. Except now you have a planet of bloodthirsty techno-barbarian guerillas who get stronger from killing things killing each other. Definitely a world conquered, expect tithe payments by the end of the day.

A Tyranid world - um, what? They're a hive-mind...

Tau - alright, the Space Marines are great against the smallest, weakest empire in the setting. Go Space Marines!

Eldar - don't really have 'worlds' as such - good luck deep-striking into a Craftworld and nailing the Seers.

Necrons - Teleport in, kill lord, fight hordes, fight reanimated lord, kill lord, fight reanimated hordes, fight reanimated lord...

Dark Eldar - This isn't really even a question, is it...

What other bad guys are there?

Rebellions with Chaos backings by a sorcerer or two, those kinds of things. Or Chaos Cults dependent on Chaos Psykers.

So what would stop the cultists, even after the sorcerers are killed, from going to ground?

You're telling me that Space Marines exist solely to fight against rebellions which are caused by mass planetary mind-control utilized by a psyker who must be one of the most powerful individuals in the known universe (and therefore one of the rarest) in order to accomplish this task?

Derp.

Well, they're the main defense against Chaos, Tyranids, assassinating Warbosses, and Necrons. But the main thing they can solo with little difficulty are those strange Chaos Cultists that rely entirely on Sorcerers and go cuckoo for cooca puffs whenever the sorcerer bites it.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait wait wait, so the Space Marines are attacking what planets again?

Chaos planets are probably hell-bent on resisting the marines - killing the leaders won't suddenly make the cultists go "eh, well, whatever, feth it, we surrender." They'll just go to ground, at worst, and uprise later. At best, they'll fight a long, grinding, war of ambush and attrition (the comparison to Iraq is apt) which is not what Space Marines do at all. So they can't conquer a Chaos world.

An Ork-held world - kill the leader, infighting starts. Fair enough. Except now you have a planet of bloodthirsty techno-barbarian guerillas who get stronger from killing things killing each other. Definitely a world conquered, expect tithe payments by the end of the day.

A Tyranid world - um, what? They're a hive-mind...

Tau - alright, the Space Marines are great against the smallest, weakest empire in the setting. Go Space Marines!

Eldar - don't really have 'worlds' as such - good luck deep-striking into a Craftworld and nailing the Seers.

Necrons - Teleport in, kill lord, fight hordes, fight reanimated lord, kill lord, fight reanimated hordes, fight reanimated lord...

Dark Eldar - This isn't really even a question, is it...

What other bad guys are there?

Rebellions with Chaos backings by a sorcerer or two, those kinds of things. Or Chaos Cults dependent on Chaos Psykers.

So what would stop the cultists, even after the sorcerers are killed, from going to ground?

You're telling me that Space Marines exist solely to fight against rebellions which are caused by mass planetary mind-control utilized by a psyker who must be one of the most powerful individuals in the known universe (and therefore one of the rarest) in order to accomplish this task?

Derp.

Well, they're the main defense against Chaos, Tyranids, assassinating Warbosses, and Necrons. But the main thing they can solo with little difficulty are those strange Chaos Cultists that rely entirely on Sorcerers and go cuckoo for cooca puffs whenever the sorcerer bites it.

They're not the main defense against those things, though. 90% of the Imperium's wars are fought and won by the PDF and the Imperial Guard. Most Imperial Guardsmen have never seen a Space Marine, yet have won several battles.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Well as already pointed out, a WMD is unlikely to even wipe out a platoon of real soldiers in an urban setting

Yeah, that's just nonsense. A nuke hitting miles away probably wouldn't kill everyone, but infantry at ground zero are just plain dead.

A nuke would be unlikely to even kill the majority of them, and multiple lance strikes would defeat the purpose of why the IOM throws the IG around suicidally- they're rather a billion men die than lose a single planet, as planets are more or less permanent objects that don't go away unless you use a lot of dakka.

Except that doesn't make any sense at all. In the real world we've used ~2000 nukes, many of them in "battlefield" situations, without having any noticeable effect on the planet. Wiping out a space marine squad with a couple tactical nukes is a trade any Imperial commander should be eager to make, especially since so many planets are already useless wastelands outside of the few hive cities.

While the guard can drown Astartes in numbers, the problem is that they're pretty much fighting an enemy circa the Dark Age of Technology/Great Crusade tech while they're armed with the watered-down cheapo reproductions or even fully lack large chunks of their technology.

Except that contradicts what we know about some guard units getting the best stuff, and the fact that they tend to have support from the navy. Even the most pathetic conscripts can still broadcast a "the space marines have arrived" message as they are slaughtered so that the orbiting warships can nuke the whole area until nothing is left.

Sure, there are some weapons that beat it like plasma, but those are in limited supply thanks to the Imperium's production of technology being horribly constricted.

And this is the problem with the scale of the setting: even "rare" weapons for the IG are much more common than space marines. In a typical planet-scale battle there are probably millions of plasma guns/lascannons/etc for every space marine. Eventually, through sheer numbers, the space marines are going to be overwhelmed and killed before they can make any meaningful impact on the war.

AND, the Astates are the favorite son of the IOM.

Which is part of the stupidity of the whole thing. Space marines get all of the best equipment while everyone else is left with garbage, even though there are nowhere near enough space marines to make a difference on the scale of the whole Imperium. And that's despite the proven disloyalty of the space marines, who often care more about settling their own personal vendettas than fighting to save the Imperium.

 Peregrine wrote:

Sure, there are some weapons that beat it like plasma, but those are in limited supply thanks to the Imperium's production of technology being horribly constricted.

And this is the problem with the scale of the setting: even "rare" weapons for the IG are much more common than space marines. In a typical planet-scale battle there are probably millions of plasma guns/lascannons/etc for every space marine. Eventually, through sheer numbers, the space marines are going to be overwhelmed and killed before they can make any meaningful impact on the war.

AND, the Astates are the favorite son of the IOM.

Which is part of the stupidity of the whole thing. Space marines get all of the best equipment while everyone else is left with garbage, even though there are nowhere near enough space marines to make a difference on the scale of the whole Imperium. And that's despite the proven disloyalty of the space marines, who often care more about settling their own personal vendettas than fighting to save the Imperium.

This basically. There are more Leman Russ main battle tanks in some formations of the Imperial Guard than there are Space Marines.

The reason the Marines are the IOM's favored son is because the IOM is backwards and steeped in tradition; they can't do away with Space Marines for much the same reason the Catholic Church still finds itself protected by Swiss Pikemen.

I would point out, that the sororitas and astartes are, for the most part, the ONLY imperial forces in fluff capable of effectively engaging demons, and the more...horrifying aspects of the 41st and winning.

I'd reference the table top rules for fear, the FFG rules for fear, and various books as well. Most normal, average IG troopers are reduced to shivering, helpless wrecks unless anchored by someone with a stronger will to keep them going, making commisars needed, or a marine to inspire them nearby.

Marines are psycho conditioned to at least ignore it, Sororitas have their faith to anchor them.
Marines have an easier time fighting in less hospitiable environments due to the sealed, andauto-sealing features of their armor, and they can continue to fight through severe injures without much decrease in performance. (Granted, in rare cases, normal men can do this as well)

Marines have never been a take and hold force, they always lose when put into that role without extensive, extensive backup.

As a high powered spec-ops/seek and destroy type unit, i'd say they fit that role well, with a side helping of zealotry and monk-ness.

They are by no means the only reason the imperium stands, and yes, if all the IG fought all the marines, the IG wins 10/10 times, but there are simply jobs the IG isn't fast enough, individually tough enough, or readily tactically flexible enough to easily handle.

Don't bite my head off please

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Sure, there are some weapons that beat it like plasma, but those are in limited supply thanks to the Imperium's production of technology being horribly constricted.

And this is the problem with the scale of the setting: even "rare" weapons for the IG are much more common than space marines. In a typical planet-scale battle there are probably millions of plasma guns/lascannons/etc for every space marine. Eventually, through sheer numbers, the space marines are going to be overwhelmed and killed before they can make any meaningful impact on the war.

AND, the Astates are the favorite son of the IOM.

Which is part of the stupidity of the whole thing. Space marines get all of the best equipment while everyone else is left with garbage, even though there are nowhere near enough space marines to make a difference on the scale of the whole Imperium. And that's despite the proven disloyalty of the space marines, who often care more about settling their own personal vendettas than fighting to save the Imperium.

This basically. There are more Leman Russ main battle tanks in some formations of the Imperial Guard than there are Space Marines.

The reason the Marines are the IOM's favored son is because the IOM is backwards and steeped in tradition; they can't do away with Space Marines for much the same reason the Catholic Church still finds itself protected by Swiss Pikemen.

Yes, because the guard serve as a great meatshield to push back Orks and Tyranids. However, they're near completely useless against Chaos and more often than not simply end up bolsteirng the ranks of invading CSMs and Daemons. The Astartes and SOB are the only viable defense against Chaos the Imperium has, who without would be dead ten times over from Black Crusades, Blood Crusades, Daemonic incursions, etc. And of course both the Astartes and SOB are immune to Doubtworm, which is a critical resource as doubtworm will simply sweep through an IG regiment with them incapable of doing anything besides committing suicide. Of course, the hilarious downfall is that Astartes are also the main forces of Chaos as well, and many continue to fall to Chaos as more are made, making them a double-edged sword that however is still invaluable in defense against Chaos.

(Grey Knights especially come to mind.)

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Sure, there are some weapons that beat it like plasma, but those are in limited supply thanks to the Imperium's production of technology being horribly constricted.

And this is the problem with the scale of the setting: even "rare" weapons for the IG are much more common than space marines. In a typical planet-scale battle there are probably millions of plasma guns/lascannons/etc for every space marine. Eventually, through sheer numbers, the space marines are going to be overwhelmed and killed before they can make any meaningful impact on the war.

AND, the Astates are the favorite son of the IOM.

Which is part of the stupidity of the whole thing. Space marines get all of the best equipment while everyone else is left with garbage, even though there are nowhere near enough space marines to make a difference on the scale of the whole Imperium. And that's despite the proven disloyalty of the space marines, who often care more about settling their own personal vendettas than fighting to save the Imperium.

This basically. There are more Leman Russ main battle tanks in some formations of the Imperial Guard than there are Space Marines.

The reason the Marines are the IOM's favored son is because the IOM is backwards and steeped in tradition; they can't do away with Space Marines for much the same reason the Catholic Church still finds itself protected by Swiss Pikemen.

Yes, because the guard serve as a great meatshield to push back Orks and Tyranids. However, they're near completely useless against Chaos and more often than not simply end up bolsteirng the ranks of invading CSMs and Daemons. The Astartes and SOB are the only viable defense against Chaos the Imperium has, who without would be dead ten times over from Black Crusades, Blood Crusades, Daemonic incursions, etc. And of course both the Astartes and SOB are immune to Doubtworm, which is a critical resource as doubtworm will simply sweep through an IG regiment with them incapable of doing anything besides committing suicide. Of course, the hilarious downfall is that Astartes are also the main forces of Chaos as well, and many continue to fall to Chaos as more are made, making them a double-edged sword that however is still invaluable in defense against Chaos.

(Grey Knights especially come to mind.)

Right. I mean, it's not like the planet that fields the most Imperial Guard regiments in the entire Imperium does it because they constantly hold back Chaos incursions or anything. I mean, surely, if Marines are truly the only line of defense against the forces of Chaos, the only planet in the corridor from the Eye of Terror into realspace would definitely be held exclusively by Space Marines right?

I mean, the Cadian Gate. With its renowned chapter of Cadian Space Marines.

 iGuy91 wrote:
I would point out, that the sororitas and astartes are, for the most part, the ONLY imperial forces in fluff capable of effectively engaging demons, and the more...horrifying aspects of the 41st and winning.

But why engage at all? The whole area is probably going to be ruined by demonic corruption anyway, so just nuke the demons from orbit and move on. The only reason to engage at all is the Imperium's obsessive need to re-fight the same old holy war between each side's sacred champions.

Marines have an easier time fighting in less hospitiable environments due to the sealed, andauto-sealing features of their armor, and they can continue to fight through severe injures without much decrease in performance. (Granted, in rare cases, normal men can do this as well)

Exactly. Normal men can do it as well, and there are enough normal men to win a war. Sending marines into lethal terrain to fight alone just means that the marines die uselessly against an enemy that probably outnumbers them by a huge margin.

As a high powered spec-ops/seek and destroy type unit, i'd say they fit that role well, with a side helping of zealotry and monk-ness.

You know what's also a great seek and destroy unit? An ICBM. If you know your target's location precisely enough to send a drop pod full of screaming idiots with chainsaws you know it precisely enough to just kill them from another continent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
However, they're near completely useless against Chaos and more often than not simply end up bolsteirng the ranks of invading CSMs and Daemons.

You mean kind of like space marines? The religious zealots who started a galaxy-wide civil war over a combination of family drama and eagerly joining chaos? Or who eagerly surrender, slaughter their comrades, and join chaos if they're faced with a choice between death or power in service to chaos?

And of course both the Astartes and SOB are immune to Doubtworm, which is a critical resource as doubtworm will simply sweep through an IG regiment with them incapable of doing anything besides committing suicide.

Which is painfully stupid fluff that should be ignored. You can't have magic 100% immunity to doubt and chaos marines at the same time.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Sure, there are some weapons that beat it like plasma, but those are in limited supply thanks to the Imperium's production of technology being horribly constricted.

And this is the problem with the scale of the setting: even "rare" weapons for the IG are much more common than space marines. In a typical planet-scale battle there are probably millions of plasma guns/lascannons/etc for every space marine. Eventually, through sheer numbers, the space marines are going to be overwhelmed and killed before they can make any meaningful impact on the war.

AND, the Astates are the favorite son of the IOM.

Which is part of the stupidity of the whole thing. Space marines get all of the best equipment while everyone else is left with garbage, even though there are nowhere near enough space marines to make a difference on the scale of the whole Imperium. And that's despite the proven disloyalty of the space marines, who often care more about settling their own personal vendettas than fighting to save the Imperium.

This basically. There are more Leman Russ main battle tanks in some formations of the Imperial Guard than there are Space Marines.

The reason the Marines are the IOM's favored son is because the IOM is backwards and steeped in tradition; they can't do away with Space Marines for much the same reason the Catholic Church still finds itself protected by Swiss Pikemen.

Yes, because the guard serve as a great meatshield to push back Orks and Tyranids. However, they're near completely useless against Chaos and more often than not simply end up bolsteirng the ranks of invading CSMs and Daemons. The Astartes and SOB are the only viable defense against Chaos the Imperium has, who without would be dead ten times over from Black Crusades, Blood Crusades, Daemonic incursions, etc. And of course both the Astartes and SOB are immune to Doubtworm, which is a critical resource as doubtworm will simply sweep through an IG regiment with them incapable of doing anything besides committing suicide. Of course, the hilarious downfall is that Astartes are also the main forces of Chaos as well, and many continue to fall to Chaos as more are made, making them a double-edged sword that however is still invaluable in defense against Chaos.

(Grey Knights especially come to mind.)

Right. I mean, it's not like the planet that fields the most Imperial Guard regiments in the entire Imperium does it because they constantly hold back Chaos incursions or anything. I mean, surely, if Marines are truly the only line of defense against the forces of Chaos, the only planet in the corridor from the Eye of Terror into realspace would definitely be held exclusively by Space Marines right?

I mean, the Cadian Gate. With its renowned chapter of Cadian Space Marines.

Or like the twenty Chapters tasked with guarding the gate and territories in the edge of the eye of terror, and prevent the Cadians from being outflanked by Chaos opening forces behind the gate to pummel its defenses. It doesn't help the Cadians much that while they're more than a match for the traitor guardsmen and own regiments Chaos raises, CSM's with non-decayed power armor cannot be even harmed by lasguns.

And while Cadians serve as excellent meatshields, they're a poor choice for any special mission to stop apocalyptic events.
(Not to mention with the 13th Black Crusade now wavering in its canonicity of its current state with GW changing things, it's entirely possible the Cadians might end up being trumped by Chaos forces on the ground.)