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 Wyzilla wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Sure, there are some weapons that beat it like plasma, but those are in limited supply thanks to the Imperium's production of technology being horribly constricted.

And this is the problem with the scale of the setting: even "rare" weapons for the IG are much more common than space marines. In a typical planet-scale battle there are probably millions of plasma guns/lascannons/etc for every space marine. Eventually, through sheer numbers, the space marines are going to be overwhelmed and killed before they can make any meaningful impact on the war.

AND, the Astates are the favorite son of the IOM.

Which is part of the stupidity of the whole thing. Space marines get all of the best equipment while everyone else is left with garbage, even though there are nowhere near enough space marines to make a difference on the scale of the whole Imperium. And that's despite the proven disloyalty of the space marines, who often care more about settling their own personal vendettas than fighting to save the Imperium.

This basically. There are more Leman Russ main battle tanks in some formations of the Imperial Guard than there are Space Marines.

The reason the Marines are the IOM's favored son is because the IOM is backwards and steeped in tradition; they can't do away with Space Marines for much the same reason the Catholic Church still finds itself protected by Swiss Pikemen.

Yes, because the guard serve as a great meatshield to push back Orks and Tyranids. However, they're near completely useless against Chaos and more often than not simply end up bolsteirng the ranks of invading CSMs and Daemons. The Astartes and SOB are the only viable defense against Chaos the Imperium has, who without would be dead ten times over from Black Crusades, Blood Crusades, Daemonic incursions, etc. And of course both the Astartes and SOB are immune to Doubtworm, which is a critical resource as doubtworm will simply sweep through an IG regiment with them incapable of doing anything besides committing suicide. Of course, the hilarious downfall is that Astartes are also the main forces of Chaos as well, and many continue to fall to Chaos as more are made, making them a double-edged sword that however is still invaluable in defense against Chaos.

(Grey Knights especially come to mind.)

Right. I mean, it's not like the planet that fields the most Imperial Guard regiments in the entire Imperium does it because they constantly hold back Chaos incursions or anything. I mean, surely, if Marines are truly the only line of defense against the forces of Chaos, the only planet in the corridor from the Eye of Terror into realspace would definitely be held exclusively by Space Marines right?

I mean, the Cadian Gate. With its renowned chapter of Cadian Space Marines.

Or like the twenty Chapters tasked with guarding the gate and territories in the edge of the eye of terror, and prevent the Cadians from being outflanked by Chaos opening forces behind the gate to pummel its defenses. It doesn't help the Cadians much that while they're more than a match for the traitor guardsmen and own regiments Chaos raises, CSM's with non-decayed power armor cannot be even harmed by lasguns.

And while Cadians serve as excellent meatshields, they're a poor choice for any special mission to stop apocalyptic events.
(Not to mention with the 13th Black Crusade now wavering in its canonicity of its current state with GW changing things, it's entirely possible the Cadians might end up being trumped by Chaos forces on the ground.)

1) Lasguns can most certainly harm power-armored foes. Read any of the Tanith books, especially First and Only.

2) The Gate itself is held by Guardsmen. This wouldn't be the case if they were completely useless against Chaos. It'd be like holding the mouth of a river with a small rowboat, then surrounding it with fortresses so the rowboat doesn't get outflanked. Derp.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Sure, there are some weapons that beat it like plasma, but those are in limited supply thanks to the Imperium's production of technology being horribly constricted.

And this is the problem with the scale of the setting: even "rare" weapons for the IG are much more common than space marines. In a typical planet-scale battle there are probably millions of plasma guns/lascannons/etc for every space marine. Eventually, through sheer numbers, the space marines are going to be overwhelmed and killed before they can make any meaningful impact on the war.

AND, the Astates are the favorite son of the IOM.

Which is part of the stupidity of the whole thing. Space marines get all of the best equipment while everyone else is left with garbage, even though there are nowhere near enough space marines to make a difference on the scale of the whole Imperium. And that's despite the proven disloyalty of the space marines, who often care more about settling their own personal vendettas than fighting to save the Imperium.

This basically. There are more Leman Russ main battle tanks in some formations of the Imperial Guard than there are Space Marines.

The reason the Marines are the IOM's favored son is because the IOM is backwards and steeped in tradition; they can't do away with Space Marines for much the same reason the Catholic Church still finds itself protected by Swiss Pikemen.

Yes, because the guard serve as a great meatshield to push back Orks and Tyranids. However, they're near completely useless against Chaos and more often than not simply end up bolsteirng the ranks of invading CSMs and Daemons. The Astartes and SOB are the only viable defense against Chaos the Imperium has, who without would be dead ten times over from Black Crusades, Blood Crusades, Daemonic incursions, etc. And of course both the Astartes and SOB are immune to Doubtworm, which is a critical resource as doubtworm will simply sweep through an IG regiment with them incapable of doing anything besides committing suicide. Of course, the hilarious downfall is that Astartes are also the main forces of Chaos as well, and many continue to fall to Chaos as more are made, making them a double-edged sword that however is still invaluable in defense against Chaos.

(Grey Knights especially come to mind.)

Right. I mean, it's not like the planet that fields the most Imperial Guard regiments in the entire Imperium does it because they constantly hold back Chaos incursions or anything. I mean, surely, if Marines are truly the only line of defense against the forces of Chaos, the only planet in the corridor from the Eye of Terror into realspace would definitely be held exclusively by Space Marines right?

I mean, the Cadian Gate. With its renowned chapter of Cadian Space Marines.

Or like the twenty Chapters tasked with guarding the gate and territories in the edge of the eye of terror, and prevent the Cadians from being outflanked by Chaos opening forces behind the gate to pummel its defenses. It doesn't help the Cadians much that while they're more than a match for the traitor guardsmen and own regiments Chaos raises, CSM's with non-decayed power armor cannot be even harmed by lasguns.

And while Cadians serve as excellent meatshields, they're a poor choice for any special mission to stop apocalyptic events.
(Not to mention with the 13th Black Crusade now wavering in its canonicity of its current state with GW changing things, it's entirely possible the Cadians might end up being trumped by Chaos forces on the ground.)

1) Lasguns can most certainly harm power-armored foes. Read any of the Tanith books, especially First and Only.

2) The Gate itself is held by Guardsmen. This wouldn't be the case if they were completely useless against Chaos. It'd be like holding the mouth of a river with a small rowboat, then surrounding it with fortresses so the rowboat doesn't get outflanked. Derp.

1) Yeah, no. I can immediately pull up a quote where a CSM gets shot in his naked face and shrugs off the lasgun bolt. Lasguns' aren't dangerous in the least to powerarmor or Astartes. It's hellguns/hotshots that can penetrate or even potentially kill. Even Orks can no-sell lasgun shots to bare skin, it requires repeated shots in order to drop one.

2) Chaos is a myriad of forces, largely comprised of traitor guardsmen and raised regiments from daemon worlds. The Cadians would have no problems holding these off. The problem arises when organized legions like the Black Legion or the Iron Warriors drop in for a surprise visit. Especially Iron Warriors. Daemons will stomp guardsmen hard, as will well equipped CSM's that can think clearly.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Space Marines have gone from the elite special forces of the Imperium, to demigod warrior monks who liberate entire planets on their own. What began as drugged up space cops beating up aliens has over the years spiraled into the Marines we know today. A squad of Marines liberates a planet on their own. A Chapter can rescue an entire star system in days. The Space Marines are the spearhead of the Imperium, the unrivaled, the best humanity has at their disposal.

Except I feel as though the Space Marines might be a little overstated. Obviously it's because the models are the most popular, so of course they get more face time with the public and in the setting. But the fact remains that the Space Marines are the special forces. So I'd like to see that reemphasized.

In real life, the United States Marine Corps is a rapid response unit that can deploy forces around the globe at a moment's notice. Often their job is to take and hold an objective independently until a larger force arrives to take care of the crisis permanently. I feel that that is what the Space Marines should be, shock troopers that make planetfall and hold down the fort until the Guard and the Navy can mobilize. One thousand marines conquering a planet just feels out of place. One thousand marines holding specific checkpoints and positions, performing asset denial across a planet makes much more sense. A company of marines spread out across a city holding strategically valuable locations is a lot more reasonable than the crazy stuff we see in Black Library and Fluff pieces.

Basically, I'd like to see the marines act in conjunction with the Navy and Imperial Guard, rather than as the separate organization they've become. If the division of Navy and Army was an attempt to prevent individuals from gaining too much power, I'd like to see a similar structure put in place for the Marines. The Imperium's armed forces working together with combined arms tactics and take and hold strategies really appeals to me.

No, one thousand marines is not out of place. You're talking a full chapter here, A full, thousand elite men with armour and gear far surpassing that of the lesser guard and navy armies. Where the marines have quality, the guard have quantity. A thousand marines should be heralded as an army the equivalent of multiple guard battle groups, because in effect, it is. One company of marines is the equivalent of one regiment of guard. so ten companies of marines, with full a full fleet, full tank crews, specialists and chapter hangers on, (adds up to be much more than simply 1,000 marines. There are at the very least, 440 tactical marines, 180 assault marines, 180 devastator marines, 100 scout marines and 100 veterans, as well as 50 company command squad members, 10 captains, 10 chaplains, the chapter master, the honour guard of about 12 men average, the Armoury, MOTF + Techmarines + Servitors, The Librarium, the apothecarion, the navy fleet crew members that are never mentioned, the crews of tanks when deploying all 1,000 battle brothers...) you're looking at at least 1300 bodies on the ground, not including the fleet, armoured vehicles outside of the standard rhino as well as whatever else takes to the field - you might see an army as large as 1,700 men take to the field when the "Chapter of 1,000 men" deploy.

 Peregrine wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
I would point out, that the sororitas and astartes are, for the most part, the ONLY imperial forces in fluff capable of effectively engaging demons, and the more...horrifying aspects of the 41st and winning.

But why engage at all? The whole area is probably going to be ruined by demonic corruption anyway, so just nuke the demons from orbit and move on. The only reason to engage at all is the Imperium's obsessive need to re-fight the same old holy war between each side's sacred champions.

Marines have an easier time fighting in less hospitiable environments due to the sealed, andauto-sealing features of their armor, and they can continue to fight through severe injures without much decrease in performance. (Granted, in rare cases, normal men can do this as well)

Exactly. Normal men can do it as well, and there are enough normal men to win a war. Sending marines into lethal terrain to fight alone just means that the marines die uselessly against an enemy that probably outnumbers them by a huge margin.

As a high powered spec-ops/seek and destroy type unit, i'd say they fit that role well, with a side helping of zealotry and monk-ness.

You know what's also a great seek and destroy unit? An ICBM. If you know your target's location precisely enough to send a drop pod full of screaming idiots with chainsaws you know it precisely enough to just kill them from another continent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
However, they're near completely useless against Chaos and more often than not simply end up bolsteirng the ranks of invading CSMs and Daemons.

You mean kind of like space marines? The religious zealots who started a galaxy-wide civil war over a combination of family drama and eagerly joining chaos? Or who eagerly surrender, slaughter their comrades, and join chaos if they're faced with a choice between death or power in service to chaos?

And of course both the Astartes and SOB are immune to Doubtworm, which is a critical resource as doubtworm will simply sweep through an IG regiment with them incapable of doing anything besides committing suicide.

Which is painfully stupid fluff that should be ignored. You can't have magic 100% immunity to doubt and chaos marines at the same time.

You can't win a war by artillery alone. At some point you're going to have to go down and put boots on the ground. As for nuking everything, what if its a habitable world you want to resettle? What if there are important factorums you need for Baneblade ballbearings? There's a reason wars aren't just airbattles today. No amount of missiles or big guns can weed out an enemy without completely destroying that planet, if its a useless planet, then they shouldn't be fighting there anyway.

 Wyzilla wrote:
1) Yeah, no. I can immediately pull up a quote where a CSM gets shot in his naked face and shrugs off the lasgun bolt. Lasguns' aren't dangerous in the least to powerarmor or Astartes. It's hellguns/hotshots that can penetrate or even potentially kill. Even Orks can no-sell lasgun shots to bare skin, it requires repeated shots in order to drop one.

Why does this one incident take priority over the fact that game lasguns are capable of killing CSM (though not very effectively), or the fluff of marines being killed/wounded by lasguns and/or forced to take cover against them instead of just standing out in the open laughing at the mere lasguns?

2) Chaos is a myriad of forces, largely comprised of traitor guardsmen and raised regiments from daemon worlds. The Cadians would have no problems holding these off. The problem arises when organized legions like the Black Legion or the Iron Warriors drop in for a surprise visit. Especially Iron Warriors. Daemons will stomp guardsmen hard, as will well equipped CSM's that can think clearly.

So let me get this straight: you have two plans, space marines protecting the flanks AND up front, or space marines protecting the flanks with IG up front. And you think the more reasonable plan is to put the limited force up front, knowing perfectly well that they will be useless if any major attack shows up? Why is this a better idea than just using space marines for everything, since they should easily be able to deal with a few random cultists according to you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
You can't win a war by artillery alone.

Only in the real world where you have civilian casualties to worry about. In 40k bombing the enemy until nothing is left alive just means fewer civilians for you to exterminate once you win the war.

As for nuking everything, what if its a habitable world you want to resettle?

Then you resettle. Most "habitable" worlds seem to be pretty much useless wastelands outside of the hive cities, and we've used thousands of nukes in the real world without any impact on the planet as a whole. You probably don't want to use nukes to kill everything, especially when conventional artillery and lasguns can do the job, but there shouldn't be any long-term effects from nuking key command centers/space marine drop sites/etc. The loss of the space marine squad the nuclear strike instantly vaporized is far more important to the Imperium than any damage to the planet.

What if there are important factorums you need for Baneblade ballbearings?

Who cares? The enemy has probably already placed nukes (or some chaos corruption equivalent) in them on a dead-man's switch just to spite you, so you're not capturing them intact anyway. You might as well just destroy them from a distance and not waste any valuable resources in a hopeless attempt to take them intact.

There's a reason wars aren't just airbattles today.

And it's because the rest of the world tends to get kind of unhappy when you exterminate an entire population from the air. In the real world you're expected to use limited force and deploy ground forces to kill the enemy without causing unnecessary collateral damage. In 40k you're going to murder all of those civilians anyway, so why worry about precision? If you bomb a hospital/school/etc that's just one less hospital/school/etc your ground troops have to waste valuable time destroying.

 Peregrine wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
I would point out, that the sororitas and astartes are, for the most part, the ONLY imperial forces in fluff capable of effectively engaging demons, and the more...horrifying aspects of the 41st and winning.

But why engage at all? The whole area is probably going to be ruined by demonic corruption anyway, so just nuke the demons from orbit and move on. The only reason to engage at all is the Imperium's obsessive need to re-fight the same old holy war between each side's sacred champions.

Marines have an easier time fighting in less hospitiable environments due to the sealed, andauto-sealing features of their armor, and they can continue to fight through severe injures without much decrease in performance. (Granted, in rare cases, normal men can do this as well)

Exactly. Normal men can do it as well, and there are enough normal men to win a war. Sending marines into lethal terrain to fight alone just means that the marines die uselessly against an enemy that probably outnumbers them by a huge margin.

As a high powered spec-ops/seek and destroy type unit, i'd say they fit that role well, with a side helping of zealotry and monk-ness.

You know what's also a great seek and destroy unit? An ICBM. If you know your target's location precisely enough to send a drop pod full of screaming idiots with chainsaws you know it precisely enough to just kill them from another continent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
However, they're near completely useless against Chaos and more often than not simply end up bolsteirng the ranks of invading CSMs and Daemons.

You mean kind of like space marines? The religious zealots who started a galaxy-wide civil war over a combination of family drama and eagerly joining chaos? Or who eagerly surrender, slaughter their comrades, and join chaos if they're faced with a choice between death or power in service to chaos?

And of course both the Astartes and SOB are immune to Doubtworm, which is a critical resource as doubtworm will simply sweep through an IG regiment with them incapable of doing anything besides committing suicide.

Which is painfully stupid fluff that should be ignored. You can't have magic 100% immunity to doubt and chaos marines at the same time.

Chaos Space Marines don't result from doubt except in rare instances. It's typically them simply wanting more power than they currently have, immortality, resources, etc. The original Chaos Space Marines actually were those with no doubt what-so-ever, and rather blind loyalty to their Primarchs.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Chaos Space Marines don't result from doubt except in rare instances. It's typically them simply wanting more power than they currently have, immortality, resources, etc. The original Chaos Space Marines actually were those with no doubt what-so-ever, and rather blind loyalty to their Primarchs.

Sorry, but that's doubt. It's doubt in the Emperor's ability to provide power, doubt in the Emperor's wisdom, etc. If you know beyond any doubt that the Emperor is who he claims and is unquestionably right then you're not going to join the losing side. This whole thing is stupidity on the same level as the GK being absolutely 100% beyond any possible chance of failure immune to chaos, and then simultaneously having special elite GK that are even more immune to chaos than everyone else.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Chaos Space Marines don't result from doubt except in rare instances. It's typically them simply wanting more power than they currently have, immortality, resources, etc. The original Chaos Space Marines actually were those with no doubt what-so-ever, and rather blind loyalty to their Primarchs.

Sorry, but that's doubt. It's doubt in the Emperor's ability to provide power, doubt in the Emperor's wisdom, etc. If you know beyond any doubt that the Emperor is who he claims and is unquestionably right then you're not going to join the losing side. This whole thing is stupidity on the same level as the GK being absolutely 100% beyond any possible chance of failure immune to chaos, and then simultaneously having special elite GK that are even more immune to chaos than everyone else.

It's not about doubt or belief, its about loyalty and honor. They were loyal to their primarch, not the Emperor, so it didn't matter what he was or wasn't, (unless your a Word Bearer) They'd consider it disloyal and dishonorable to go against their Primarch.

 MWHistorian wrote:
It's not about doubt or belief, its about loyalty and honor. They were loyal to their primarch, not the Emperor, so it didn't matter what he was or wasn't, (unless your a Word Bearer) They'd consider it disloyal and dishonorable to go against their Primarch.

And what about the marines that have fallen to chaos since the heresy? They've come from chapters with loyalist primarchs, so that's still doubt.

 Peregrine wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
It's not about doubt or belief, its about loyalty and honor. They were loyal to their primarch, not the Emperor, so it didn't matter what he was or wasn't, (unless your a Word Bearer) They'd consider it disloyal and dishonorable to go against their Primarch.

And what about the marines that have fallen to chaos since the heresy? They've come from chapters with loyalist primarchs, so that's still doubt.

Or greed, or ambition or any number of reasons. Doubt, of course, but to say doubt is the reason for all of them is much too simplistic.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Or greed, or ambition or any number of reasons. Doubt, of course, but to say doubt is the reason for all of them is much too simplistic.

But doubt is a prerequisite. If you have complete indisputable faith in the Emperor then you aren't going to abandon him and pursue personal benefits because you know that it's wrong (and a pretty bad idea in general). You don't get to the point where you're vulnerable to the temptations of chaos until you've already had at least that initial seed of doubt.

 Peregrine wrote:


...and we've used thousands of nukes in the real world without any impact on the planet as a whole.

Can you provide a source for this? The numbers seem a bit... high. I realize there have been more than two atomic detonations (Hiroshima and Nagasaki, obviously) because we did test the things before and after the war... but "thousands'? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would like a source, please.

squidhills wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:


...and we've used thousands of nukes in the real world without any impact on the planet as a whole.

Can you provide a source for this? The numbers seem a bit... high. I realize there have been more than two atomic detonations (Hiroshima and Nagasaki, obviously) because we did test the things before and after the war... but "thousands'? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would like a source, please.

I wouldn't say no impact. St. George Utah got irradiated, Cancer rates in Japan are higher thanks to radiation from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There are islands in the pacific and parts of Nevada where no one will live for thousands of years because of the radiation. many nuke tests were conducted, but they were done in far, out of the way places where the fallout wouldn't effect population centers. Start throwing nukes into fertile farm land or cities, then it becomes a very different story. Also, our nukes are party favors compared to the ordinance the Imperium uses.

 MWHistorian wrote:

squidhills wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:


...and we've used thousands of nukes in the real world without any impact on the planet as a whole.

Can you provide a source for this? The numbers seem a bit... high. I realize there have been more than two atomic detonations (Hiroshima and Nagasaki, obviously) because we did test the things before and after the war... but "thousands'? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would like a source, please.

I wouldn't say no impact. St. George Utah got irradiated, Cancer rates in Japan are higher thanks to radiation from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There are islands in the pacific and parts of Nevada where no one will live for thousands of years because of the radiation. many nuke tests were conducted, but they were done in far, out of the way places where the fallout wouldn't effect population centers. Start throwing nukes into fertile farm land or cities, then it becomes a very different story. Also, our nukes are party favors compared to the ordinance the Imperium uses.

Cancer rates are high? Jesus christ, don't tell the administratum. They might not give a feth.

So why don't we take all the resources needed to make SM and use them to make more Kriegsmen?

There's your army to deal with Daemons.

Summary of the Aff in this topic:

"For the price of a Veyron Bughatti you could buy a huge amount of Toyota Corollas, and they can totally perform just as well if not better!"

Except they can't.



As for the role of the Space Marines, I consider it largely to be this:

The IG is an enormous boulder the enemy is struggling to hold up and gradually failing.
If the enemy happens to be strong enough to hold it indefinitely, or progress is too slow, the Space Marines are a little feather to gently caress the man's sides and force his resistance to crumble.

Yep, enjoy that image. Make the guy Abaddon and imagine the feather in the colors and heraldry of the Pretty Marines.

Ferros wrote:
Summary of the Aff in this topic:

"For the price of a Veyron Bughatti you could buy a huge amount of Toyota Corollas, and they can totally perform just as well if not better!"

Wrong argument. You should say "for the price of Veyron I can buy huge amount of Smarts and they can totally perform just as well...when you throw them with huge trebuchet"

Because, sadly, war isnt about being fastest/ more technologically advanced, but more devastating with resources you have. Again, this is good example of fighting in Iraq with insurgents or Afghanistan with Taliban. US/ NATO forces are much much muuuuuuuuuuuch more advanced in technology. Casuality rate is much much muuuuuch better for them. And still, those pesky locals (OK, maybe not locals all the time, but thats for another story) are still there and US/ NATO pulls back because they still cant win and are rather close to losing.

I like you boulder scheme (even its not completely true for IG, but whatever, nitpicking from my side), but I have problem that in many many maaaany scenarios this cant work for SM. You kill warboss and Orks retreats? Yes. You kill leader of cultist army and...after brief stagger, he is replaced by his second in command. Repeat. Cultists will break into many small forces and continues to fight. But Im not saying SM are useless....they are just much more...difficult to use effectively in whole war scenario.

But I think that Chaos forces are in general seen too onedimensionaly. Its not horde of demons. Its rather horde of cultist with human (barely human) leader and when some deamon or CSM emerges, its more serious and rare case.

squidhills wrote:
Can you provide a source for this? The numbers seem a bit... high. I realize there have been more than two atomic detonations (Hiroshima and Nagasaki, obviously) because we did test the things before and after the war... but "thousands'? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would like a source, please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_weapons_tests

Total of ~2000 for the whole world, in various kinds of tests.

Ferros wrote:
"For the price of a Veyron Bughatti you could buy a huge amount of Toyota Corollas, and they can totally perform just as well if not better!"

Except they can't.

Except they can, because the purpose of the cars in this case is to carry ten people to work in ten different locations. The one awesome supercar might be fast, but it can only be in one place at a time and loses to the horde of cheaper cars.

The IG is an enormous boulder the enemy is struggling to hold up and gradually failing.
If the enemy happens to be strong enough to hold it indefinitely, or progress is too slow, the Space Marines are a little feather to gently caress the man's sides and force his resistance to crumble.

But for the price of those space marines you could just get a second boulder.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I wouldn't say no impact. St. George Utah got irradiated, Cancer rates in Japan are higher thanks to radiation from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There are islands in the pacific and parts of Nevada where no one will live for thousands of years because of the radiation. many nuke tests were conducted, but they were done in far, out of the way places where the fallout wouldn't effect population centers. Start throwing nukes into fertile farm land or cities, then it becomes a very different story.

1) Those are all local effects. If you add up the total damaged area and compare it to the total land mass of the world it's a tiny percentage. And even when you're talking about the bigger strategic nukes you still need several warheads spread out across a city to really cripple it. Using tactical nuclear weapons (which are much smaller) to kill space marine squads might cause some damage to the city you're fighting in, but the overall effect on the planet is going to be virtually nonexistent.

2) Life in the Imperium sucks anyway. Everything outside of your hive city is a useless wasteland, you're doomed to a life of miserable slavery in a factory until you die, and your only hope for a better life is to get conscripted into the IG and thrown into the meat grinder. Who cares if life expectancy goes down a bit, you can always make more people. And the radiation is probably less of a concern than the chaos corruption/xenos tech abominations/etc that the war left behind.

Also, our nukes are party favors compared to the ordinance the Imperium uses.

But you don't always use the biggest gun. There are plenty of weapons that will vaporize whole space marine squads with a single shot but not cause any real damage to the planet. In fact, the Imperium's superior technology probably means that their weapons will be cleaner. After all, it's the radiation (especially from the radioactive material that isn't used up in the fission reaction and is just scattered by the blast) that causes long-term damage with nukes, not the blast strength. For example, dropping purely kinetic weapons from space could theoretically cause more damage than nukes, but the area would be perfectly safe to live on as soon as the pool of lava that used to be a city cools down enough.

You made a fair point! The local effects of tac nukes could be scrubbed away. And there always are closed off hive cities to live in. But, still, to win, you have to make sure you got them all with the big guns and that requires sending people in. It helps if those people are well trained and equipped.

In insurgencies, sometimes big guns and tech really don't mean much. I spent two years fighting one. There's more than one type of war.

 MWHistorian wrote:
But, still, to win, you have to make sure you got them all with the big guns and that requires sending people in.

Or just bombing it some more until you're sure nothing could possibly still be alive. Remember, you don't have to worry about telling the difference between soldiers and civilians, you can just kill any living thing you see on the infrared scan.

It helps if those people are well trained and equipped.

It also helps if you have more than one of them per million enemy soldiers in the area. The problem with space marines is that there just aren't enough of them to make a difference. Amazing super soldiers aren't that impressive if they're spread out so thinly across a whole planet that you're lucky to have two of them within a hundred miles of each other. And even if you bring entire chapters to a war that just means that there are countless other wars that aren't getting space marines at all.

In insurgencies, sometimes big guns and tech really don't mean much. I spent two years fighting one. There's more than one type of war.

You spent two years fighting an insurgency in which you had to avoid collateral damage. For example, you have to send in ground troops to investigate a suspected enemy group meeting in a house because if you just bomb it from a distance you'll probably destroy the hospital next door and kill a bunch of innocent civilians. But that's not the case in 40k. If you bomb the factory from orbit destroying the hospital with the same shot is a nice bonus because now you don't have to send in your valuable guardsmen to go execute everyone in the hospital and risk catching some foul xenos plague.

Now, you do need troops on the ground to defend a vital area, but that's where space marines are terrible because the enemy can overwhelm their limited numbers. Marines are best in fast surgical strikes on key targets where they can get in, kill something that needs killing, and get out before a few million guardsmen/orks/etc swarm the area. And that's the kind of thing where you just drop an ICBM on it from another continent and congratulate yourself on a job well done.

Agreed, Space Marines would be awful in the jobs you just described. (They'd probably resent it too. Iron Warriors anyone?)

 MWHistorian wrote:
Agreed, Space Marines would be awful in the jobs you just described. (They'd probably resent it too. Iron Warriors anyone?)

And this is the problem. Those jobs are the only jobs that are really relevant in the 40k universe. For the jobs that marines are good at (drop in, kill everything, let the guardsmen clean up the mess) you can just drop an ICBM on the target since all of the civilians you kill in the process are a nice bonus.

 Psienesis wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Because fluff varies. Either you buy into the bolterporn, and Space Marines can, indeed, use 5 dudes to conquer a planet... or you don't, and ten regular humans in flak armor with lasguns can wipe out a squad of Space Marines suffering 0 casualties.

Except there are different games workshop games where space marines work differently... Inquisitor marines pretty much stand up to their fluff... Or is that propaghanda also?

What about 'fluff' where marines stand up to their reputation, yet still get trounced, the short story about the Lamenters being wiped out by Tyranids for example.

The tabletop has no real correlation to the setting, and just apply physics to it also, inch thick hard as nails powered personal armour is not going to get taken down by conventional bullets very easily unless it's a good shot in a weak point, and since autoguns are the equivilant of lasguns, then lasguns are not up to the job either.

The fluff is more believable than the tabletop application, as I don.t personally believe that guardsman can take down a 10ft 500kg daemon prince with combat knives and fists.

From Codex: Angels of Death:


The most important element in the construction of a suit of Space Marine power armour is the large ceramite armour plates, which provide the main form of protection against enemy attack. Individual plates of armour can be up to an inch thick, and have a special "honeycomb" design which helps to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st Millenium.

Does an injury class as death or a flesh wound, or some of the many points in between? Whilst I agree that power armour can and probably will be penetrated multiple times during a battle, the marine will shrug off a vast majority of those wounds, the las gun shot that has just tore through his bicep will instantly clot, and not stop him from firing his bolter one handed with his other arm.

Also, again, regarding this ridiculous table top application being the genuine 'fluff' rather than the propaganda fluff..... Is every model incapacitated on the table top dead? No, no they are not.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
But, still, to win, you have to make sure you got them all with the big guns and that requires sending people in.

Or just bombing it some more until you're sure nothing could possibly still be alive. Remember, you don't have to worry about telling the difference between soldiers and civilians, you can just kill any living thing you see on the infrared scan.

It helps if those people are well trained and equipped.

It also helps if you have more than one of them per million enemy soldiers in the area. The problem with space marines is that there just aren't enough of them to make a difference. Amazing super soldiers aren't that impressive if they're spread out so thinly across a whole planet that you're lucky to have two of them within a hundred miles of each other. And even if you bring entire chapters to a war that just means that there are countless other wars that aren't getting space marines at all.

In insurgencies, sometimes big guns and tech really don't mean much. I spent two years fighting one. There's more than one type of war.

You spent two years fighting an insurgency in which you had to avoid collateral damage. For example, you have to send in ground troops to investigate a suspected enemy group meeting in a house because if you just bomb it from a distance you'll probably destroy the hospital next door and kill a bunch of innocent civilians. But that's not the case in 40k. If you bomb the factory from orbit destroying the hospital with the same shot is a nice bonus because now you don't have to send in your valuable guardsmen to go execute everyone in the hospital and risk catching some foul xenos plague.

Now, you do need troops on the ground to defend a vital area, but that's where space marines are terrible because the enemy can overwhelm their limited numbers. Marines are best in fast surgical strikes on key targets where they can get in, kill something that needs killing, and get out before a few million guardsmen/orks/etc swarm the area. And that's the kind of thing where you just drop an ICBM on it from another continent and congratulate yourself on a job well done.

But Guardsmen can't bomb the factory from orbit, they require the Navy to do that, and then they need the Navy to approve it also. Marine can just bomb it from orbit, in fact, marines can just go exterminatus on the planet within a few hours if their recon units think it is hopeless.

I'm not arguing that marines don't need guardsmen by the way, I am arguing that guardsmen also need marines, fact of the matter is, if it delves in to CC on the planet, then marines can stand up to it and hack it, guardsman cannot.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Does an injury class as death or a flesh wound, or some of the many points in between? Whilst I agree that power armour can and probably will be penetrated multiple times during a battle, the marine will shrug off a vast majority of those wounds, the las gun shot that has just tore through his bicep will instantly clot, and not stop him from firing his bolter one handed with his other arm.

Also, again, regarding this ridiculous table top application being the genuine 'fluff' rather than the propaganda fluff..... Is every model incapacitated on the table top dead? No, no they are not.

But the basic point here is that marines can be wounded and killed by even lasguns. Whether the exact number of shots on average is 10 or 20 the marine is outnumbered by such an absurdly huge margin that he will be shot and killed.

But Guardsmen can't bomb the factory from orbit, they require the Navy to do that, and then they need the Navy to approve it also. Marine can just bomb it from orbit, in fact, marines can just go exterminatus on the planet within a few hours if their recon units think it is hopeless.

Well yes, the whole point is that you spend the resources on more guardsmen AND more navy ships/crew. A marine fleet does nothing that a navy fleet can't do, except the marines cost more per ship because you're paying for their ground combat capabilities and have to worry about them deciding to abandon a war to go chase after their private vendetta with some other marines.

Also, the guardsmen might not be able to bomb a factory from orbit, but they have artillery that can turn it into rubble from miles away and ICBMs that can flatten the whole city the factory is in from another continent.

I'm not arguing that marines don't need guardsmen by the way, I am arguing that guardsmen also need marines, fact of the matter is, if it delves in to CC on the planet, then marines can stand up to it and hack it, guardsman cannot.

Except marines can't hack it. If the marines are outnumbered a million to one by a tyranid swarm (and it will probably be billions to one by the end of the invasion) the only thing they can do is die uselessly. The simple fact is that there just aren't enough marines in the Imperium to make a meaningful difference. If they all instantly disappeared overnight the only real loss would be the propaganda and religious value of the Imperium's greatest saints and martyrs.

I think we have to realize that the whole setting is kinda stylized, exaggerated and fantastical. Suspend disbelief if you will.

 Wyzilla wrote:
I don't think we've ever seen Astartes actually occupy a territory putting down insurgents.

Maybe not, but why not? The Marines could very conceivably have some reason to stick around. Maybe they draw recruits from this world? Maybe they've sworn an oath to trusted allies to keep the world safe? Apart from that, Marines needn't be occupying a territory long-term to battle insurgents. The insurgents could be pre-existing while the Marines are there for some other reason, or newly-emergd. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't have happened.

 Peregrine wrote:
But why engage at all? The whole area is probably going to be ruined by demonic corruption anyway, so just nuke the demons from orbit and move on. The only reason to engage at all is the Imperium's obsessive need to re-fight the same old holy war between each side's sacred champions.

Aside from that, the Imperium might also place some value on an object or resource on the world. For example, there's some fluff where the SoB send down squads to a former shrine world turned daemon world to recover untained relics, even though the GK show up soon after and bomb the planet clean. The Imperium ain't always logical about these things.

 Peregrine wrote:
This whole thing is stupidity on the same level as the GK being absolutely 100% beyond any possible chance of failure immune to chaos

The fluff implies otherwise, actually. Firstly, we have the Changling instilling a "seed of doubt" into a GK in the Daemons codex. And in the Bloodtide, the GK are actually described as "needing" their blood ritual to protect them from corruption.

Marines role in the Imperium wars is better compared to the Long Range Desert Group in WW2. There is no way they could deal with the full might of the Afrika Korp in a direct engagement but there role at eliminating airfields and crucial positions and supply convoys was vital to the Allied war effort and eventual victory in the campaign (Arguably less important than British dominance of the Mediterranean and the problems with supply but still). Another equivalent would be the Ranger attack on Pointe du Hoc and the Glider attack on Pegasus Bridge during D day. All of which are crucial special operations which won a larger battlefield and were vital in the success of the larger effort. The other thing is an Astartes Squad crams a lot more focussed force into a smaller area and means they can defend crucial positions far better than the Guard and also deal with far greater numbers. Basically a squad of Astartes has roughly the force of a small platoon of guardsmen but takes half the area. A company has roughly the same force as two or three companies and takes a 1/3 of the space a chapter has the same force as a regiment but requires far less space to operate in making it far more deadly. This is useful when defending or assaulting a critical installation.
Artilleries devastation is over stated there are always survivors. The First Day of the Somme with its 60000 casualties proves the danger of over estimating it's efficiency, during WW1 huge numbers died but most units survived bombardment on a scale never seen before or since as cohesive units. You also over look the fact you might need to prove somebodies dead or gain access to something they hold. A bombing raid on Bin Laden's compound wouldn't have necessarily killed him and would have destroyed the records he had, the Seal strike proved he'd died to the people who matter and secured the records. A major bombardment strike would not have been an option as Pakistan is a nuclear power and could respond in kind. It has it's own ICBM strike capability and would have rightfully responded in kind. It would also have enraged the majority of people in the world. Watching America nuke one of it's allies because a criminal is living there would have enraged most of it's allies as well. Bombings also work to encourage the enemy to fight and are a powerful propaganda tool as was proven in WW2 where attacks like Coventry were used in recruitment and mobilisation drives.
Basically Marines win crucial skirmishes and ensure a war is won but are a hugely valuable tool. Special Forces can't hold major trench lines or defend countries but they can defend vital installations or destroy them.

 Peregrine wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Does an injury class as death or a flesh wound, or some of the many points in between? Whilst I agree that power armour can and probably will be penetrated multiple times during a battle, the marine will shrug off a vast majority of those wounds, the las gun shot that has just tore through his bicep will instantly clot, and not stop him from firing his bolter one handed with his other arm.

Also, again, regarding this ridiculous table top application being the genuine 'fluff' rather than the propaganda fluff..... Is every model incapacitated on the table top dead? No, no they are not.

But the basic point here is that marines can be wounded and killed by even lasguns. Whether the exact number of shots on average is 10 or 20 the marine is outnumbered by such an absurdly huge margin that he will be shot and killed.

But Guardsmen can't bomb the factory from orbit, they require the Navy to do that, and then they need the Navy to approve it also. Marine can just bomb it from orbit, in fact, marines can just go exterminatus on the planet within a few hours if their recon units think it is hopeless.

Well yes, the whole point is that you spend the resources on more guardsmen AND more navy ships/crew. A marine fleet does nothing that a navy fleet can't do, except the marines cost more per ship because you're paying for their ground combat capabilities and have to worry about them deciding to abandon a war to go chase after their private vendetta with some other marines.

Also, the guardsmen might not be able to bomb a factory from orbit, but they have artillery that can turn it into rubble from miles away and ICBMs that can flatten the whole city the factory is in from another continent.

I'm not arguing that marines don't need guardsmen by the way, I am arguing that guardsmen also need marines, fact of the matter is, if it delves in to CC on the planet, then marines can stand up to it and hack it, guardsman cannot.

Except marines can't hack it. If the marines are outnumbered a million to one by a tyranid swarm (and it will probably be billions to one by the end of the invasion) the only thing they can do is die uselessly. The simple fact is that there just aren't enough marines in the Imperium to make a meaningful difference. If they all instantly disappeared overnight the only real loss would be the propaganda and religious value of the Imperium's greatest saints and martyrs.

As has already been pointed out though, the marines wouldn't be 'holding' the position, they would either be holding for a matter of hours till the attacking army has been bombed from orbit, or till the guard arrive... Fact is, you couldn't get enough guard on the ground fast enough, or redeploy them fast enough to hold a position, especially if the fighting is CC as they would be munched through far faster than the marines, and if it's inside a facility the marines are even better.

There are some situations where the guardsmen may be able to do the exact same job, but the expended resources to do it would be inefficient compared to sending in the marines.

Lastly, it's totally possible that the guardsmen don't get the same equipment in case they turn traitor with the navy they are with. Millions/Billions of troops deploying via drop pod and taking planets in rapid succession is a much bigger potential threat to the Imperium than the theoretically more stable space marine chapters who are independent.

There is nothing that needs its role re-emphasized.

Because its the other way round.
Some people should re-evaluate their take on 40k.
WH 40k isn't a place of realism, correct scale or well thought out fluff.

GW itself hasn't decided what they want it to be. Is it a small scale skirmish? An engagement on a battalion level? Epic size?

We have GW and their usual setup of tables for example. Like "please buy our big kits" => forces SHV and GC into a "game" on a standard table....
Sure as hell would those long range big guns face off at a distance of .. 2x the length of the vehicles???

We have GW and their new tactic of adding flyers and MC ( so again they mirror fantasy, WHFB ) everywhere. Who expected the grey knight baby carrier, SM centurier etc if there was a faction specific design scheme? Anything in the background ? Or unexpected?

Basically 40k is like a snapshot of a bigger event.
So SM belong there. Even sisters or Inquisition. As part of a certain moment in time. They wouldn't fit in if it was about a whole war or even a battle.
GW focused on them, like movies focus on the shiny knight and not the masses of footsloggers in the background. This works well for them since 40k isn't meant to be "real". You don't agree to a game months before just to emulate the time your army is "in transit" to the battlefield. You don't have to care about morale, supplies, etc. You don't have to use what's available on that planet, you choose freely from a list. There is exactly zero "realism" involved.

So SM need too many ressources? Laughable. 40k ressources are endless. Your army can die multiple times per day and you don't have to wait for reinforcements to "act" again. In fact, GW doesn't care if their fluff and reality are compatible. To them its just a handwavium rich magic land....

The background may suggest the majority of conflicts involves the population and the local law enforcement. And we are still not looking at the daily life or a conflict across decades, we are re-enacting "battles" with some dozen and up to a hundred models involved. The time frame, the "window" is too small to represent anyones role in the 40k verse correclty.

Thus Space Marines are fine as they are.
GW wrote One Marine per world is enough. So take it or leave it.

Have an exalt.