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I thought that the Malevolent had been declared excommunicatus traitoris?

 Peregrine wrote:

squidhills wrote:
Two thousand above-ground detonations of high-yield warheads would have pretty much ended humanity.

Not even close. The whole "nuclear winter" thing was based on flawed climate models, the reason WWIII would have been so bad is the fact that all of the cities would have been destroyed and civilization would have been reduced to isolated groups of survivors with none of the networking that modern society depends on.

I'm not referring to nuclear winter. I'm referring to radioactive fallout. The Chernobyl disaster spread radiation over a wide expanse of Europe and rendered much of the immediate area uninhabitable. While there are some individuals living in isolated pockets near the remains of the reactor, there are still many places with enough residual radiation to give a fatal dose after a brief exposure. Now imagine two thousand Chernobyls going off. You wouldn't even need to hit the cities to end civilization; death by radiation sickness would affect an overwhelming majority of the population. Preventing radioactive fallout from hitting a wide area is one of the reasons that, as warheads got bigger and bigger, the tests of them began to be moved underground.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
I thought that the Malevolent had been declared excommunicatus traitoris?

No, not yet. Just that nobody likes them, to the point that IIRC, the Admech has refused to supply them with anything.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
I thought that the Malevolent had been declared excommunicatus traitoris?

No, not yet. Just that nobody likes them, to the point that IIRC, the Admech has refused to supply them with anything.

That's pretty bad if even the Ad Mech thinks your acting like inhuman weirdos.

The Marines Malevolent seem like extremely archetypical moustache-twirling villains, even for being 40K people.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
I thought that the Malevolent had been declared excommunicatus traitoris?

No, not yet. Just that nobody likes them, to the point that IIRC, the Admech has refused to supply them with anything.

IIRC, it has never been stated that the Admech has cut off supply, it was just that a group of Marines Malevolent were found by some Salamanders stealing things from a wrecked ship. In 40k, marines are often depicted as running low on some technology as grasp on technology falters (as it does a lot), the Marines Malevolent are likely no different.

But yeah, they are not the most popular bunch around.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

When Marines rebel, it's actually pretty bad.

...
Not only is over a thousand Space Marines with ships, specialists etc a rather intimidating foe in itself, but since they are so influental they can bring down much more with them than just their homeworld.

It's certainly not a dime a dozen event.

Yeah, because we have seen how over ten thousand years traitor chapters with help of chaos choked IoM to death, such horrendous irresistible force Sorry, its rather poke into whole CSM ementalish fluff with Failbaddon in the vanguard I always imagine CSM as laying on warp beach with bloody mojito and straw, watching sunset...sorry, eyeofterrorset and mumbling "Oh yeah brother, this is much better than some crusade. Did you see those daemonette chics over there? Lets noise them...har har har"

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

When Marines rebel, it's actually pretty bad.

...
Not only is over a thousand Space Marines with ships, specialists etc a rather intimidating foe in itself, but since they are so influental they can bring down much more with them than just their homeworld.

It's certainly not a dime a dozen event.

Yeah, because we have seen how over ten thousand years traitor chapters with help of chaos choked IoM to death, such horrendous irresistible force Sorry, its rather poke into whole CSM ementalish fluff with Failbaddon in the vanguard I always imagine CSM as laying on warp beach with bloody mojito and straw, watching sunset...sorry, eyeofterrorset and mumbling "Oh yeah brother, this is much better than some crusade. Did you see those daemonette chics over there? Lets noise them...har har har"

Abaddon's actually won the war on Cadia as of the old fluff on the 13th Black Crusade (which is now in limbo), and the Failbaddon meme is old and unfunny, and isn't even related to Abaddon's crusades (which never had the goal of reaching Terra), and rather the model being a weighty piece of crap.

Indeed I hate the fail abbadon quote too its quite annoying actually. Still most chaos incursions occur because of humans and normally the guard are the ones who put them down. Then if chaos space marines(which is more rare than loyalist space marines) are involved depending on the number. Then space marines might jump in.

Still In many books CSM say they most propagate and take care of the cults to get anything done and recruit humans. Thats an aspect I really like.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

When Marines rebel, it's actually pretty bad.

...
Not only is over a thousand Space Marines with ships, specialists etc a rather intimidating foe in itself, but since they are so influental they can bring down much more with them than just their homeworld.

It's certainly not a dime a dozen event.

Yeah, because we have seen how over ten thousand years traitor chapters with help of chaos choked IoM to death, such horrendous irresistible force Sorry, its rather poke into whole CSM ementalish fluff with Failbaddon in the vanguard I always imagine CSM as laying on warp beach with bloody mojito and straw, watching sunset...sorry, eyeofterrorset and mumbling "Oh yeah brother, this is much better than some crusade. Did you see those daemonette chics over there? Lets noise them...har har har"

Abaddon's actually won the war on Cadia as of the old fluff on the 13th Black Crusade (which is now in limbo), and the Failbaddon meme is old and unfunny, and isn't even related to Abaddon's crusades (which never had the goal of reaching Terra), and rather the model being a weighty piece of crap.

Oh I think its still funny I know about his handless model, but it still suits better to his achievements...ahem... GW is trying to retcon him to glory, but he is still chaos powered Warmaster who in 10000 years conquered most of the one planet... Im not saying he should match Macharius, but still... Sorry, whole CSM fluff supports my warp beach theory... (and still, I like CSM and traitor primarchs)

You are aware he did plenty of other things during these 13 Crusades, right?

The bandwagon of cluelessness is getting old.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
You are aware he did plenty of other things during these 13 Crusades, right?

The bandwagon of cluelessness is getting old.

Yeah, like the Mojito... C'mon mate, dont take it so seriously. So he rather sucks in role of Warmaster and one of main threats to IoM from Chaos. I just fear Emperor will sooner die from Golden Throne malfunction than by hand of Abaddon the Promiser On the other, maybe he just counts on the fact that he is immortal and waits Creed to die with clever rhetorics "No no, we didnt choose to destroy Imperium of Men...yet...no no, my goal wasnt to kill false Emperor just right now...Its just as planned!"

The point of Space Marines is to strike at the support guns, the leadership, and the supply lines of an enemy army and then leave the Guard to actually see through the victory and ensure that the world is truly compliant. To quote from the 6th ed. Rulebook:
"...they are expected to accomplish almost impossible battlefield duties, lead vital assaults, confront the most horrendous of foes, and hold their positions no matter how hopeless the odds. Though their numbers are not great, they are sufficient for any task." (Page 183)
The Space Marines also act as a rallying point for the Guard. Guardsmen are very brave, but if you were charging into a trench full of daemons, would you rather have just your platoon around or your platoon plus a squad of enormous Superhuman soldiers carrying guns that shoot rounds that explode once they penetrate the enemy's body?

It is getting a bit old, but GW likes to help refresh it once in a while. Still one of the best threads on the 13th Black Crusade
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page
Shame its been adapted and now fully retconned in the Chaos dex, which of course means it will never happen. With the Imperium being the most popular faction overall its going to be hard for other factions to shine. Just ask Eldar or Ork players about the fluff. Its the same in this thread, in reality the number of marines is so small that it should not really matter much. Yet in the fluff they almost single handedly murder everyone, while carying the guard on their backs towards victory. Its what annoys people, it goes SM>Imperial>most other factions


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crickate wrote:
The point of Space Marines is to strike at the support guns, the leadership, and the supply lines of an enemy army and then leave the Guard to actually see through the victory and ensure that the world is truly compliant. To quote from the 6th ed. Rulebook:
"...they are expected to accomplish almost impossible battlefield duties, lead vital assaults, confront the most horrendous of foes, and hold their positions no matter how hopeless the odds. Though their numbers are not great, they are sufficient for any task." (Page 183)
The Space Marines also act as a rallying point for the Guard. Guardsmen are very brave, but if you were charging into a trench full of daemons, would you rather have just your platoon around or your platoon plus a squad of enormous Superhuman soldiers carrying guns that shoot rounds that explode once they penetrate the enemy's body?

This is what is wrong with the rallying point, if its a company of marines, how can they man dozens or hunderds of miles of trenches while still being in visual contact? If its just the rumor that provides the rally point, why bother having them? A full blown deamon invasion will most likely overrun a planet anyway, regardless of 100 marines (who of course massacre 10 million deamons enabling the Imperium to win).

"The point of Space Marines is to strike at the support guns, the leadership, and the supply lines of an enemy army"

But that's not how they're depicted in Black Library.

"But that's not how they're depicted in Black Library."

As for the morale issue. Seeing is believing. Plus, eventually, if there actually were no Astartes around anywhere, rumors would start to be passed around in the ranks, which would be even more of a headache for the Administratum and Commissars because they would have to root out the rumors and kill Guardsmen. And even then the Guardsmen might begin to wonder what else isn't true and then heresy.

IMHO the SM are twofold, they are both a primary fighting force when at full strength and a spec-ops detachment. sometimes when they are the only forces around they will sweep in and take on prolonged engagements on a planet, though rarely as a full chapter, even in the codex fluff it states a that rarely does a whole chapter mobilize and when it does it is pretty serious for the IoM. Most of the time you would likely see at best a company sent, and then detachments made to handle the tough spots, spots that would take IG months of prolonged combat to subdue. the SM detachment would hit hard and fast and then move on to the next hotspot on the planet and leave the guardsmen to do cleanup. of course when it comes to recruiting worlds and such for the chapters themselves, they would be a lot more involved, most likely not having any Navy or IG support.



Note: Im probably late to the discussion and just skimmed the 8 pages of the thread, so if I am repeating, I apologize.

 Crickate wrote:
"But that's not how they're depicted in Black Library."

Spoiler:

Take the books Horus Rising and Galaxy in Flames. In Horus Rising the Luna Wolves use a Spear tip strike on 'Terra'. I can't remember the exact quote, but IIRC,somebody talked about how they would take out the head of the enemy and then leave the Army to stop the twitching body, or something along those lines. In Galaxy in Flames, Loken and some other Luna Wolves begin to question why they are massing 4 Legions together rather than just using a couple companies in a precision strike like they are used to.

As for the morale issue. Seeing is believing. Plus, eventually, if there actually were no Astartes around anywhere, rumors would start to be passed around in the ranks, which would be even more of a headache for the Administratum and Commissars because they would have to root out the rumors and kill Guardsmen. And even then the Guardsmen might begin to wonder what else isn't true and then heresy.

For the spoiler, its the Great Crusade, in other books in the series we have the full might of several combined legions crushing planets. In some books they are described as the spear tip, yet in others they are clearly the spear, going around and killing every last bit of resistance. They dont adhere to a single role but switch between the two.

On the morale issue, seeing is believing, yet the people of the Imperium see that Guilleman is dead in a statis field and still believe he's healing (impossible untill BL book shortly). Most guardsmen have never seen a marine in their life, yet they believe they exist. Most citizens dont even know about traitor marines, what they do to worship the Emperor the next planet over, most dont even know life outside their factory. If marines dissappeared and the higher ups made a deal, that just like with Chaos we know but we will pretend not to, no one would be the wiser. Its like the God-Emperor, nobody ever sees him, yet the still believe in him, you dont have to see them to believe in them. 'A small mind is easily filled with faith'.

 Melissia wrote:
"The point of Space Marines is to strike at the support guns, the leadership, and the supply lines of an enemy army"

But that's not how they're depicted in Black Library.

Is "Angel of Fire" a black library publication?
Do they "blunt the speartip of the enemies counterassault" there?

They function as you'd expect special forces to function in the Taros Campaign, I think.

To sidestep the previous discussions but still be on topic, I think there *is* a role for the marines which does need re emphasising.

Back in the RT days there was a mention of assault marines (before Assault Marines per se existed) as ship boarding troops. I think recently FW has released some kits along this line actually but it's actually a really good role for them. I always liked the idea of a smaller ship like a thunderhawk opening up and releasing marines into space. Those exhausts on the backpacks used to be thrusters/stabilisers and could be used to maneuver in space.

Imagine single marines flying out of the darkness to latch onto the side of a hull. Then either hacking their way in with power axes/fists/melta bombs. They could split up and set charges to cause dozens of hull breaches (because vacuum isn't a problem for them, but your average lifeform..)or storm an engine room/bridge. A single squad of marines might not be able to conquer a planet but they can certainly take a ship or orbital defense station. I honestly think that's more what they'd do when a planet revolts- rock up and clear the orbital defenses, then drop pod onto any ground based ones that are remaining to threaten a landing fleet.

 Melissia wrote:
"The point of Space Marines is to strike at the support guns, the leadership, and the supply lines of an enemy army"

But that's not how they're depicted in Black Library.

To be fair, BL's main aim is to tell good stories (though milage tends to vary on that), and having the Marines doing big, heroic stuff is usually more exciting.

And, to fair, the Marines aren't a very unifrom entity to begin with, plenty of variation in mindset there. And it's not like BL strongly enforces 40K canon either, BL authors seem to have quite a lot of freedom in how they depict a faction.

 Kojiro wrote:
Back in the RT days there was a mention of assault marines (before Assault Marines per se existed) as ship boarding troops. I think recently FW has released some kits along this line actually but it's actually a really good role for them. I always liked the idea of a smaller ship like a thunderhawk opening up and releasing marines into space. Those exhausts on the backpacks used to be thrusters/stabilisers and could be used to maneuver in space.

That's a cool idea actually. Reminds me of a few episodes of Red vs Blue.

EDIT, nevermind, wrong thread.

 Melissia wrote:
Sure. It'll at least make them less boring.

Agreed.
I can't believe I have come back from the dead to agree.

But Space Marine's in their current role as warrior monks is only so much fun. There are a few oddball chapters most notably the Raptors Chapter who still follow the original role of the Space Marines which is to be the knife in the back of an enemy.

That is their role after all.

Space Marines do not win wars.

The Imperial Guard win wars. Who is it that protects humanity on every front? The Imperial Guard. Who is it that they call to bring down the hammer upon the enemies of mankind? The Imperial Guard. What stopped the 13th Black Crusade? The Imperial Guard.

Wars in the 41st Millenia are not won by political intrigue but by war and war alone.

There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...

I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.

 Kojiro wrote:
There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...

I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.

Or fighting underwater. On gas planets, on planets like mercury. GW is missing alot of cool ideas.

I want my space marines to fight on a planet like neptune or Mercury. Where if you remove your helmet your skin will boil.

 Kojiro wrote:
There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...

I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.

Yeah the enviromental systems are drastically under used. And whatever happened to Camo space marines? Oh yeah Girlyman said camo was not honorable. Jerk...

Bronzefists42 wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:
There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...

I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.

Yeah the enviromental systems are drastically under used. And whatever happened to Camo space marines? Oh yeah Girlyman said camo was not honorable. Jerk...

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Raptors_(Chapter)
Hi they would like a word with you.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Bronzefists42 wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:
There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...

I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.

Yeah the enviromental systems are drastically under used. And whatever happened to Camo space marines? Oh yeah Girlyman said camo was not honorable. Jerk...

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Raptors_(Chapter)
Hi they would like a word with you.

I think the link is broken nothing came up. What annoyed me about the Camo retcon was that their were chapters that had alternate camo schemes some chapters even having camo worked into their normal heraldry back in RT.