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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
And that's only taking the IG in account.

Don't include the PDF. Because Rarely have I heard them actually holding the line.

That's because you obviously don't read the right books. In Planetkill, there's several stories concerning PDF troopers heroically throwing back the enemy long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

Hell, in Titanicus, one of the main characters is a PDF trooper who fights on despite losing half of her platoon to an ambush during their call up, and fighting against Dark Mechanicus hunter-killer servitors. The main character who saves the day, in fact, is a PDF tank commander who lost his tank like halfway through but soldiered on regardless.

Uh huh. Keep dreaming.*

Please know I am joking. Because in most 40k fluff they are wiped out to a man.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
And that's only taking the IG in account.

Don't include the PDF. Because Rarely have I heard them actually holding the line.

That's because you obviously don't read the right books. In Planetkill, there's several stories concerning PDF troopers heroically throwing back the enemy long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

Hell, in Titanicus, one of the main characters is a PDF trooper who fights on despite losing half of her platoon to an ambush during their call up, and fighting against Dark Mechanicus hunter-killer servitors. The main character who saves the day, in fact, is a PDF tank commander who lost his tank like halfway through but soldiered on regardless.

Uh huh. Keep dreaming.*

Please know I am joking. Because in most 40k fluff they are wiped out to a man.

Haha, alright.

And being wiped out is still a more heroic, self-defining stand than many modern armies would make against unseen and unknown space-horrors. Don't let people knock the PDF!

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
And that's only taking the IG in account.

Don't include the PDF. Because Rarely have I heard them actually holding the line.

That's because you obviously don't read the right books. In Planetkill, there's several stories concerning PDF troopers heroically throwing back the enemy long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

Hell, in Titanicus, one of the main characters is a PDF trooper who fights on despite losing half of her platoon to an ambush during their call up, and fighting against Dark Mechanicus hunter-killer servitors. The main character who saves the day, in fact, is a PDF tank commander who lost his tank like halfway through but soldiered on regardless.

Uh huh. Keep dreaming.*

Please know I am joking. Because in most 40k fluff they are wiped out to a man.

Yeah, the PDF always tends to be the chew toy in W40K, even the Guard gets smacked around less than PDF's that aren't from fortress worlds like Ultramar. The PDF do their job and do it well- be massacred to make the enemy look like a serious threat and send an emergency emotional request for aid until the signal is dramatically cut off.


As for the most effective faction? Chaos. Because Chaos won.

Technically the Orks won as well.

In fact, according to Codex:Orks, the Orks have never lost a battle. Now that is an impressive streak.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Technically the Orks won as well.

In fact, according to Codex:Orks, the Orks have never lost a battle. Now that is an impressive streak.

Well, they have. Just that Orks that lost a battle weren't really Orks.

space marines are portrayed much weaker then thay actually are in the table top game for balance sake, being more accurately portrayed in the rpgs by fantasy flight. using that game as a guideline a marine just out of the scout company and presented with his PA weighs in at ruffly 8000pts a basic guard trooper straight out of basic at 0pts and thats without any specialization. a techmarine is scary for one reason they are also a fully trained tech priest of mars in the form of a marine. they can broadcast a jamming signal that will cripple comms fake voice prints and bruteforce through firewalls. all it takes from there is proper placement of assets to cripple an enemy force. with the support a a few battle brothers behind enemy lines they could take out any and all communications with command. cut off the head of the snake as it were.

People tend to assume that Marines are useless and weak due to their tabletop stats, but that is just one interpretation. In the Standard Bearer article of the WD where C:SM 5th ed was released, (I think it was that WD) that very issue was adressed. It was explained that the rules were not designed for a squad of Space Marines versus a massive horde of orks, even if that might be a fair match-up in the 'real' 40K, because it is a lot less visually exciting than masses of Space Marines fighting masses of Orks.

An important thing to keep in mind before you claim Marines are as useless as you think they are. They are few, but commonly fight in locations that are very important strategically and they apply such truly massive force concentration that they just outclass most other options the Imperium has. And when you gather a good number of them, they can just carve a path through pretty much any resistance. They simply blow other forces out of the water when they are allowed to do when they want to do. On the defense, you can imagine the Marines as a rock in a body of water. Sure, the body of water may be the size of a large lake, but it still won't shatter the rock. On the offense, they are like a scalpel cutting into an unfortunate Dark Eldar victim. Ouchy.

One is just as free to interpret them as obsolete useless propaganda-machines, of course. But that is not 'the one right path'.

I think the role of a space marine still stands

The universe of 40k is truly massive and yes there are a thousand chapters of space marines flying around but there not all actively in combat all the time.

A space marine is the stuff of legend and many guardsmen go there full life without ever seeing one unless their is dire need for them. Which for the shear weight in numbers of the imperial guard is very rare

Think of them as the SAS or SEAL teams you know there the best of the best and out their doing extremely dangerous stuff in the background but how often does your standard infantry man see one ?? It's very rare

brother marcus wrote:
I think the role of a space marine still stands

The universe of 40k is truly massive and yes there are a thousand chapters of space marines flying around but there not all actively in combat all the time.

A space marine is the stuff of legend and many guardsmen go there full life without ever seeing one unless their is dire need for them. Which for the shear weight in numbers of the imperial guard is very rare

Think of them as the SAS or SEAL teams you know there the best of the best and out their doing extremely dangerous stuff in the background but how often does your standard infantry man see one ?? It's very rare

and let us hope it is a normal space marine and not the grey knights with the policy of killing off anyone who knew about them after the battle.

 kezef wrote:

brother marcus wrote:
I think the role of a space marine still stands

The universe of 40k is truly massive and yes there are a thousand chapters of space marines flying around but there not all actively in combat all the time.

A space marine is the stuff of legend and many guardsmen go there full life without ever seeing one unless their is dire need for them. Which for the shear weight in numbers of the imperial guard is very rare

Think of them as the SAS or SEAL teams you know there the best of the best and out their doing extremely dangerous stuff in the background but how often does your standard infantry man see one ?? It's very rare

and let us hope it is a normal space marine and not the grey knights with the policy of killing off anyone who knew about them after the battle.

Exactly my point I don't even think there is communication between worlds other than cries for help so even if a planet in your solar system has been visited by the space marines I doubt an imperial citizen would hear anything other than word of mouth from returning guardsmen or rogue traders

This is most probably why they are worshipped and revered as they because of the way they "save" the imperium. And because the human mind is fickle and has to believe in something despite the emperors best efforts

MechHaven wrote:
space marines are portrayed much weaker then thay actually are in the table top game for balance sake, being more accurately portrayed in the rpgs by fantasy flight. using that game as a guideline a marine just out of the scout company and presented with his PA weighs in at ruffly 8000pts a basic guard trooper straight out of basic at 0pts and thats without any specialization. a techmarine is scary for one reason they are also a fully trained tech priest of mars in the form of a marine. they can broadcast a jamming signal that will cripple comms fake voice prints and bruteforce through firewalls. all it takes from there is proper placement of assets to cripple an enemy force. with the support a a few battle brothers behind enemy lines they could take out any and all communications with command. cut off the head of the snake as it were.

You're joking, right? FFG based their Space Marines on the Ultramarines movie... that is to say, if you're the main character, you are nigh-omnipotent, but if you aren't, then you're cannon fodder.

The problem is that fluff wise Astartes are good enough to be crack covert troops but table top requires them to be less.

Of course this means the Alpha Legion are on the right track as they use covert tactics to achieve their goals instead of brute force.

Space marines in the game can't possibly represent what they are supposed to be !!

Once in a GW store there was an event. It was 2000 Pts and they had 10 marines that's 200 points each and every one agreed their stats matched what a marine is supposed to be

And with the most competitive tau army I could muster I killed ONE !!

Although I would gladly take a price bump for them to be better and have better weapons and options ( this would have a knock on effect that everything else that isn't marines be cheaper so the game would just be back to square one)

Also people need to stop pulling out "you have ATSKNF and the combat squads" so what !!! Both are seriously overrated I think they should be allowed to choose whether or not they flee.

And combat squads just makes them easier to kill I never combat squaded since we've had the rule

Mellow wrote:
The problem is that fluff wise Astartes are good enough to be crack covert troops but table top requires them to be less.

Of course this means the Alpha Legion are on the right track as they use covert tactics to achieve their goals instead of brute force.

No, it doesn't. This is a cop-out for people who think the tabletop Marines should be Movie-Marines, or who think the BL fluff should drive the TT game, rather than the two being entirely separate entities.

Want to make your Marines "crack, elite troops"?
Price them at 100 points for the bog-standard, vanilla Battle Brother. They come with a boltgun and one CCW.

All other wargear, because it is relics built specifically for the Astartes, costs extra (and premium!),

Now you can call your SM army "elite".

Or, like many people, you can reason that the tabletop games represent a non-ideal combat for Marines, where they'd ideally only fight, say... half the army or whatever at once.

Because rapid strikes and all that. Of course, that still leaves the fact that a force of marines can be wiped out by a single, competently led Guard platoon, but personally I see nothing wrong with that

 Psienesis wrote:

MechHaven wrote:
space marines are portrayed much weaker then thay actually are in the table top game for balance sake, being more accurately portrayed in the rpgs by fantasy flight. using that game as a guideline a marine just out of the scout company and presented with his PA weighs in at ruffly 8000pts a basic guard trooper straight out of basic at 0pts and thats without any specialization. a techmarine is scary for one reason they are also a fully trained tech priest of mars in the form of a marine. they can broadcast a jamming signal that will cripple comms fake voice prints and bruteforce through firewalls. all it takes from there is proper placement of assets to cripple an enemy force. with the support a a few battle brothers behind enemy lines they could take out any and all communications with command. cut off the head of the snake as it were.

You're joking, right? FFG based their Space Marines on the Ultramarines movie... that is to say, if you're the main character, you are nigh-omnipotent, but if you aren't, then you're cannon fodder.

Sadly in most FFG I have played in and GMed as, the Captains die first. It is quite weird.

But yeah usually main characters are nigh invincible and as the GM I usually kill them off first.

 Melissia wrote:
Or, like many people, you can reason that the tabletop games represent a non-ideal combat for Marines, where they'd ideally only fight, say... half the army or whatever at once.

Because rapid strikes and all that. Of course, that still leaves the fact that a force of marines can be wiped out by a single, competently led Guard platoon, but personally I see nothing wrong with that

I damn well can, but that is your own interpretation.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
People tend to assume that Marines are useless and weak due to their tabletop stats, but that is just one interpretation. In the Standard Bearer article of the WD where C:SM 5th ed was released, (I think it was that WD) that very issue was adressed. It was explained that the rules were not designed for a squad of Space Marines versus a massive horde of orks, even if that might be a fair match-up in the 'real' 40K, because it is a lot less visually exciting than masses of Space Marines fighting masses of Orks.

An important thing to keep in mind before you claim Marines are as useless as you think they are. They are few, but commonly fight in locations that are very important strategically and they apply such truly massive force concentration that they just outclass most other options the Imperium has. And when you gather a good number of them, they can just carve a path through pretty much any resistance. They simply blow other forces out of the water when they are allowed to do when they want to do. On the defense, you can imagine the Marines as a rock in a body of water. Sure, the body of water may be the size of a large lake, but it still won't shatter the rock. On the offense, they are like a scalpel cutting into an unfortunate Dark Eldar victim. Ouchy.

One is just as free to interpret them as obsolete useless propaganda-machines, of course. But that is not 'the one right path'.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

Mellow wrote:
The problem is that fluff wise Astartes are good enough to be crack covert troops but table top requires them to be less.

Of course this means the Alpha Legion are on the right track as they use covert tactics to achieve their goals instead of brute force.

No, it doesn't. This is a cop-out for people who think the tabletop Marines should be Movie-Marines, or who think the BL fluff should drive the TT game, rather than the two being entirely separate entities.

Want to make your Marines "crack, elite troops"?
Price them at 100 points for the bog-standard, vanilla Battle Brother. They come with a boltgun and one CCW.

All other wargear, because it is relics built specifically for the Astartes, costs extra (and premium!),

Now you can call your SM army "elite".

It already exists, except they get a few more pieces of wargear than that. 'Movie Marines' it's called. I have tried those rules. They are very interesting, playing 'lore marines' is a sorta unique experience, but the rules are outdated. Maybe I should see if I can update them?

Would be fun to see your Lore Marines, indeed. I could use a good laugh.

Although I'd just as much like the BL writers to write in such a way that the Marines work in a way that people can wrap their head around. You can claim 'it is a fantasy world' all you want, but the abilities of the Space Marines aren't determined by any fantastical ability, it is from easy to understand scientific effects that make them as powerful as they are. Don't get me wrong, they ARE powerful. But for them to matter as much as some of the more 'lenient' writers insist, there would certainly need to be more of them. An easy fix to numbers would harm nothing and gain so much.

I agree a numbers fix would be a huge help. And it would be easy to implement, too. I mean, we all know how good the Adminustratum is at record keeping. All GW has to do is say that there are around a thousand KNOWN chapters of SMs, and a whole lot more that are still out there, but their paperwork got lost during the Age of Apostasy or something. Or hell, they could just say "Ten thousand Chapters of a thousand warriors" instead of just a thousand Chapters.

Yes, I know that ten million SMs isn't a lot given the scale of the galaxy, but it's a lot more reasonable when you realize it means there would be several thousand Chapters in each segmentum, and likely one whole Chapter per sector (meaning they wouldn't have to move around as much to get to warzones).

squidhills wrote:
I agree a numbers fix would be a huge help. And it would be easy to implement, too. I mean, we all know how good the Adminustratum is at record keeping. All GW has to do is say that there are around a thousand KNOWN chapters of SMs, and a whole lot more that are still out there, but their paperwork got lost during the Age of Apostasy or something. Or hell, they could just say "Ten thousand Chapters of a thousand warriors" instead of just a thousand Chapters.

Yes, I know that ten million SMs isn't a lot given the scale of the galaxy, but it's a lot more reasonable when you realize it means there would be several thousand Chapters in each segmentum, and likely one whole Chapter per sector (meaning they wouldn't have to move around as much to get to warzones).

That is why people create their own universes.

Just add a subtle difference and say that the 40k universe instead of having a thousand chapters, has ten thousand chapters. (which makes more sense)

Why would there be several thousand Chapters in a Segmentum? Where are the hundreds of master artisan Forgeworlds cranking out that many suits of Power Armor, mastercrafted boltguns, Land Raiders, Predators, Land Speeders, Terminator armor, Dreadnought chassis, etc etc.

Having ten million Space Marines (or more) requires a much larger infrastructure to exist to support them, which makes things a whole lot less grimdark.

 Psienesis wrote:
Why would there be several thousand Chapters in a Segmentum? Where are the hundreds of master artisan Forgeworlds cranking out that many suits of Power Armor, mastercrafted boltguns, Land Raiders, Predators, Land Speeders, Terminator armor, Dreadnought chassis, etc etc.

Having ten million Space Marines (or more) requires a much larger infrastructure to exist to support them, which makes things a whole lot less grimdark.

Not really. It just adds more chapters to the mix. It gives more depth, instead of a small war that the imperium is currently experiencing, Ten thousand chapters sounds more reasonable.

And less grimdark? It is already darker than black. They could use some boost of moral.

It is what is driving people away, a change of numbers would be welcomed by the fans.

brother marcus wrote:
Space marines in the game can't possibly represent what they are supposed to be !!

Once in a GW store there was an event. It was 2000 Pts and they had 10 marines that's 200 points each and every one agreed their stats matched what a marine is supposed to be

And with the most competitive tau army I could muster I killed ONE !!

That sounds a bit extreme... I don't think that Marines are that powerful in fluff. I don't recall reading any stories where ten Marines outfight an entire army by themselves in a straight fight.

I wounded quite a lot of them almost 2 were dead but yea I still only killed one.

And the rules were pretty spot on for what you read about marines

But this was an example because the manager had enough of people wining about how there so much better in fluff

But my point still stands that I would gladly take a 15-25% increase in points for a better stat line

Oh and I've read numerous stories where marines pretty much wreck everything's face but that depends on the point of view

The stats only go to 10. There's only so many things in the setting that you can give 7s, 8s and 9s to before you break the mechanics of the game.

If a Primarch is supposed to be 10s across the board, then the GE will need to be, like, 30s, and you're wanting standard SM to be, like, 7s.

That's going to require an individual SM to be 150 points a pop, because they generally only deploy in squads to do one thing.

So you get 5 dudes on the board (your wargear is going to cost more than the Marines.... you can replace a Space Marine, you can't replace the Terminator Armor he's in) and you're facing down.... let's say, Necrons.... who should, by their fluff, have RP of 2+ at all times, regardless of how they die. Sweep them? Their "dead" don't care, they just reanimate and rise up behind your lines... now you're trapped between more Necrons and the Necrons you thought you just killed.

Also, it will be your 5 guys against 1000 Necrons, because they go big, or they don't go at all.

Basically, every faction is better in the BL books they appear in, because BL's job is to tell an exciting story.

 Troike wrote:

brother marcus wrote:
Space marines in the game can't possibly represent what they are supposed to be !!

Once in a GW store there was an event. It was 2000 Pts and they had 10 marines that's 200 points each and every one agreed their stats matched what a marine is supposed to be

And with the most competitive tau army I could muster I killed ONE !!

That sounds a bit extreme... I don't think that Marines are that powerful in fluff. I don't recall reading any stories where ten Marines outfight an entire army by themselves in a straight fight.

The 'movie marine' stats place each Marine at 100 points, and seem reasonable.

Although, they are old and outdated.

I find that the writers for some of the Xenos races certainly don't buff them to fanboi levels like the Space Marine writers do...not even close. They tell an exciting story without trampling all over the basics of war logistics.

I am sorry what, I just read some movie marine rules, they're incredibly stupid.

 Psienesis wrote:
Why would there be several thousand Chapters in a Segmentum? Where are the hundreds of master artisan Forgeworlds cranking out that many suits of Power Armor, mastercrafted boltguns, Land Raiders, Predators, Land Speeders, Terminator armor, Dreadnought chassis, etc etc.

Having ten million Space Marines (or more) requires a much larger infrastructure to exist to support them, which makes things a whole lot less grimdark.

Given that much of the equipment used by SMs is handed down from generation to generation over millenia, you wouldn't need to add hundreds of Forge Worlds to the setting to arm ten million marines. Just make older power armor marks common in your army and say that they've been on a gradual re-armament plan for the last 10,000 years and have almost 50% of their troops in mk7 armor. Younger Chapters would have to make do with older gear, as the newer Chapters get their primogenitor's hand-me-downs. Likewise, the tanks date back to the Horus Heresy (when there were a LOT more factories cranking out SM gear, as there wasn't as much material directed at the regular army. Hell, why can't SM fortress worlds each have a manufactorum dedicated to producing their own equipment (frankly, I thought they all already did, except for fleet-based Chapters like the BTs and DAs)...? They wouldn't need to crank out the numbers of tanks and guns that the Guard use, as (according to fluff) the SMs make a habit of re-using and repairing damaged tanks and drednaughts (unlike the IG, who just make a new 'Russ because it's easier than trying to patch the holes in the old one).

 Bobthehero wrote:
I am sorry what, I just read some movie marine rules, they're incredibly stupid.

Ymmv. Some things are weird like the suicide grenade thing, but the statline makes sense.

Assuming we use a Guardsman as a reference point. Compared to a Carnifex or a Chaos Space Marine, the rules make very little sense at all.