Ok, didn't take much pictures - just an overall view and than decided to not post it cause there were just too many proxies and it'd be confusing. This orks are horrors, this orks are cultists, those nobz are spawns, this kopta is a bike sorc and that bike sorc...oh, at least he is indeed bike sorc, phew!
Will ask the owner to make close ups on oblits if you want. They're sweet-sweet models.
Hmm, surprised that you say ap3 is common. Most armies seem to spam ap 5-6 and ap 1-2. Maybe guard with their tanks, but the vast majority of weapons rarely seem to be ap 3-4. It's one of the reasons 2+ saves aren't as good as they seem. Most of the better units sport ap 2 or better weapons outside of scat bikes.
Regardless, the advantage of the sky shield with mot is they have a 3/3++ save, so ap weapons are very bad against them. Throw in 1-2 ablative wound guys and they are a tough unit to remove outside of melee, and being on the back edge with an advancing force in front of them makes them tough to get to.
The real problem is the best weapon for them is the 4 pg load out. Chaos doesn't have good long range weapons overall. If the auto cannons were just one more shot they'd be one of the best units in the dex. If oblits could fire the same weapon turn after turn, and had 1 more wound, I'd take them. Actually an additional wound on the mutilators would make me look at them too....they'd be much harder for a tactical squad to remove at that point.
The chaos dex is just full of slightly missed chances though.
I don't find swapping weapons to be very problematic with oblits, actually. They have good choices for the job. The only real problem was when they got misplaced in corner but that doesn't happen very often. In fact 2 misplaced oblits out of 4 - i consider to be FAR less likely than it usually happens. I usually leave 2-3 on board - depending on the opponent, terrain, traits, etc.
As for ap3, there are superheavies with ap3 hellstorm flamers, heldrakes, guard arti - now with orders, eldar psy apoc blast, reapers...don't know, most games here have some sort of decent ap3 ranged weapon. Not telling that armies are entirely composed of it but it's not rare nevertheless.
And once again, havoks are fine. I also like 4 flamers in a rhino. They roll around and go SoB stuff to death. Oblits just do more for me. And models are cool.
-3 man conclave
-Sevrin Loth
-2or3 scout squads
-tactical squad /w meltas in drop pod
-Gravs-Centurons
-Melta Imperial Knight
-Flamestorm template Imperial Knight
So how did my lonely 2 Mutilators do?
1st one DS in turn 2 near his Melta IK. Did nothing and in my opponent's turn 2 shooting... ignored it (moved that IK towards my typhon). In my turn 3, I ended up assaulting that IK. We BOTH whiffed in two combat turns.
Mutie was a good speed bump for a turn. Worked out well as it essentially allowed me to move the typhon up to target his Gravs-Cent. (killed 3 cents in ensuing turn. )
The other Mutie dropped near the relic by turn 4 and my opponent just had to target from the lone Cent and conclave.
Conclusion... there's a place for the Mutilators against slow moving armies.
-3 man conclave
-Sevrin Loth
-2or3 scout squads
-tactical squad /w meltas in drop pod
-Gravs-Centurons
-Melta Imperial Knight
-Flamestorm template Imperial Knight
So how did my lonely 2 Mutilators do?
1st one DS in turn 2 near his Melta IK. Did nothing and in my opponent's turn 2 shooting... ignored it (moved that IK towards my typhon). In my turn 3, I ended up assaulting that IK. We BOTH whiffed in two combat turns.
Mutie was a good speed bump for a turn. Worked out well as it essentially allowed me to move the typhon up to target his Gravs-Cent. (killed 3 cents in ensuing turn. )
The other Mutie dropped near the relic by turn 4 and my opponent just had to target from the lone Cent and conclave.
Conclusion... there's a place for the Mutilators against slow moving armies.
Cool! So, they payed off eventually. Were you inspired to try out muties for purge detachment by this thread? Or were they just the cheapest fillers?
Anywayz, i don't think they're as useful for eternal war as for maelstorm. Still performed fine, i see.
Bharring wrote: In another thread we had been discussing Blade storm vs CSM, and more specifically Mutilators.
Janocran, what are your thoughts about Mutilators in games against Guardians and Dire Avengers?
To be honest, I have seen very few players using either. In fact it has been a WHILE since anyone but me has done it. Wave Spam is no longer a "thing" really and that was the primary motivator for taking them at all.
Having said all that: i think Mutilators would not like to face Guardians or Dire Avengers because of Blade Storm. It's way under rated of course like most things people dont normally take. But you can see what it does in other units, and its pretty clearly a good answer against Mutilators.
10 Guardians do 2.22 Rending wounds and 2.2 normal ones if all ten get to fire. So that's 1.85 wounds on the average? Not enough but daaaaaaarn close. Close enough that on any given roll, the odds could teeter in the Guardians favor. So yeah. Bladestorming Guardians have a shot at killing a Mutilator. IF ten of them get to shoot AND they get a little lucky.
Ummm... nope. It's better than ATSKNF and grenades on tacs. Hell, bladestorm even works against the annointed GMCs, because rending was the one thing GW forgot to make GMCs completely immune to.
Bharring wrote: In another thread we had been discussing Blade storm vs CSM, and more specifically Mutilators.
Janocran, what are your thoughts about Mutilators in games against Guardians and Dire Avengers?
To be honest, I have seen very few players using either. In fact it has been a WHILE since anyone but me has done it. Wave Spam is no longer a "thing" really and that was the primary motivator for taking them at all.
Having said all that: i think Mutilators would not like to face Guardians or Dire Avengers because of Blade Storm. It's way under rated of course like most things people dont normally take. But you can see what it does in other units, and its pretty clearly a good answer against Mutilators.
10 Guardians do 2.22 Rending wounds and 2.2 normal ones if all ten get to fire. So that's 1.85 wounds on the average? Not enough but daaaaaaarn close. Close enough that on any given roll, the odds could teeter in the Guardians favor. So yeah. Bladestorming Guardians have a shot at killing a Mutilator.
I think I'm one of the few Eldar players who uses Guardians on a regular basis, and they do fairly well against my friend's Oblits and Mutilators. Battle Focus makes it so I can easily get into double tap range before backing off.
Ummm... nope. It's better than ATSKNF and grenades on tacs.
Sure. But then you think everything is better than Tactical Marines. So...
Congratz on not being one who underrates Guardians! perhaps they could be your next army? I ran a Guardian based army as a special request from a blog follower a long time ago. It was pretty fun.
I'm actually surprised. For threat saturation, my units have one turn to stop them or they lose the position (Reapers, for example, can't really get away from deep struck mutilators). And my DA squads cost twice a muti.
That said, I have little experience against them. Nurgle oblits have survived a lot, though.
I think I'm one of the few Eldar players who uses Guardians on a regular basis, and they do fairly well against my friend's Oblits and Mutilators. Battle Focus makes it so I can easily get into double tap range before backing off.
Don't tell anyone here or they will tell you your meta sucks and you're a bad player. Lol.
But seriously, I also have them in my army. I'm only using one unit and have been actually testing the army without them the last three games. However i do think the Guardians are extremely effective as close line defense much the same way the Tau Breachers are. Likewise they can be used in a somewhat similar role as Fish of Fury guys. So i can definitely see the usefulness. Battle Focus adds to their shininess.
I've typically used Guardians for mid/backfield. Potshot with Brightlance, and if something comes close, take a bite to help whatever else can engage it, but they haven't done well on the front line pushing. Boltguns and short range (d6BF helps)...
Bharring wrote: I've typically used Guardians for mid/backfield. Potshot with Brightlance, and if something comes close, take a bite to help whatever else can engage it, but they haven't done well on the front line pushing. Boltguns and short range (d6BF helps)...
If you plan tyo bring them up, then you might want to consider Asurman as a leader. His multiple Waerlord traits really can be a HUGE deal when you combine them in a Guardian army. The Feast of Blades or whatever its called is REALLY nice in a Guardian heavy "fish of Fury" type approach. it does require some heavy duty weapons be plugging any artillery full of holes ahead of time of course but even then you can scatter with FLEET and Battle focus pretty darn well.
The bottom line to me is that nothing that is relying on toughness or an armor save (or both) to protect a rather limited amount of wounds wants to see bladestorm. Bladestorm is not super great against vanilla marines, but once you starting putting gear on them, the "6"s get very costly. It's even worse with MC/GMC. It seems to me that Nurgle mutilators fall into this category. The mutilators will soak way more fire from Fire Warriors or marines compared to Bladestorm units.
Yeah, my most common list has Asurmen bouncing between 2 10man DA squads. Backed up by one box of several other Aspects, its a hell of a fun time, for both me and my opponents usually. But Asurmen, even with Fates Messenger, doesn't seem to tank well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Things that rely on t7 or lower don't have their toughness negated by Bladestorm (although armor is proportionally less effective as T goes up, even though overall survivability goes up) any more than Boltguns.
Bharring wrote: Yeah, my most common list has Asurmen bouncing between 2 10man DA squads. Backed up by one box of several other Aspects, its a hell of a fun time, for both me and my opponents usually. But Asurmen, even with Fates Messenger, doesn't seem to tank well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Things that rely on t7 or lower don't have their toughness negated by Bladestorm (although armor is proportionally less effective as T goes up, even though overall survivability goes up) any more than Boltguns.
Bharring wrote: Yeah, my most common list has Asurmen bouncing between 2 10man DA squads. Backed up by one box of several other Aspects, its a hell of a fun time, for both me and my opponents usually. But Asurmen, even with Fates Messenger, doesn't seem to tank well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Things that rely on t7 or lower don't have their toughness negated by Bladestorm (although armor is proportionally less effective as T goes up, even though overall survivability goes up) any more than Boltguns.
But the armor gets ignored as well. And T8 is a VERY important data point. Ironic that Eldar are the only ones that can handle their own GMC. I've seen as many WK as all other MCs/GMCs combined.
My favorite stories with him are:
-The time he charged a 5-man Sternie squad without combis, with Fates Messenger, and died (from full!) on overwatch
-He gets charged with a 10man DA squad. Does 0 wounds (saved or otherwise for two rounds). Then, on the second round of CC, PL/shield Exarch one rounds a Wraith on the second round, just to show him up.
In most games he does good work, but about what I paid for him. I have yet to have Soulcut do anything really nice, but he really mulches Marines.
My Eldar do well, I don't need them to do any better (in fact, the new dex has made my casual lists a bit too good for their purpose).
It's not that a meta is bad or good, it's that it's competitive or casual. Casual metas can be viewed as better and more fun in many ways, since they allow more unit choices and strategies than a cut throat competitive meta will.
I love dire avengers personally. Battle focus allows me to stay out of rapid fire range which really gives avengers a huge advantage over other troop choices. The blade storm rule is really solid and allows them to fire at a range of targets and still do damage. It's also very easy for them to get cover, since they have a relatively large range for their firepower and BF.
If we didn't have scatbikes, I think Eldar would still do well using avengers. I certainly feel weaker using them, but its not so bad that I can go up against anyone and feel like I'm at a huge disadvantage. Plus the models and Phoenix lord are sweet.
I have not used guardians much since I play biel-tan, so can't comment there. I imagine they'd be much up dependent but could perform even better than avengers against some match ups, and not that much worse in others.
Msu in general is a really fun strategy. You get way more options and can respond better to situations than someone running larger units. It's much better than moving around 2-3 knights and a deathstar.
I remember when it first came about in fantasy and it completely changed the game. So far it hasn't made as much of an inroad into 40k, although it's starting too since they are changing the way units and special weapons work.
Edit; if you want to make a footdar topic it can be fun. Expect everyone to chime in with bikes/skimmers are better, since no one ever reads the topic of threads.
It's not really a topic that has been explored in 7th, and footdar is viable. I pretty much run it against competitive lists and do ok, and I'm not the best general.
why the question on Guardians? how did that come up as pertained to Mutilators? You mentioned another discussion or something?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: Perhaps we should move the broader footdar conversation to another thread....
Back on topic, I hope a local player throws some Mutis at me some day. If I played CSM, it sounds like a fun strategy.
What is your list? I'd be interested to see what I'd be up against. My Night Lords are what you'd expect: tons o raptors, 3 units of bare bones marines in rhinos, 3 separate mutilators (the unusual part), three separate Obliterators and two Chaos Lords (one on bike the other on wings, both with the same mission). As typical as you please. Add a heldrake on top. Nurgle to make em all tough.
I would question guardians because they're effectively bad Dire Avengers. Dire Avengers don't take a platform that makes you think they can tackle a target they actually can't, have a 4+ (which with cover is where you draw the line of how effective 5+ vs 4+ is), have a considerably better range, AND can be BS5.
Akiasura wrote: Msu in general is a really fun strategy. You get way more options and can respond better to situations than someone running larger units. It's much better than moving around 2-3 knights and a deathstar.
That's why a Centstar might have a problem against Mutas/Oblits. You can swat 2x every turn, and Centstar will recover its points -- eventually. But meanwhile the MSU isn't under control, so they can spend about 4-5 turns scoring objectives and getting into the face of other units.
I think that would be a great game to see. But Martel, you should definitely put your Blood Angels up against koooaei's list.
koooaei wrote: It's just not a rare sight for a sorc to charge and do little with 4 s5 attacks. I'm thinking that a ~7% price increase for 5 s6 attacks might be worth it. Considereing that sorc is the main hitting power against good armor and fnp. If they had H&R i'd not bother. But currently, i consider it to be a problem.
I think you should run the Horns. Why not. You are going to hit the targets that you want to almost twice as hard. But it might still be worth considering the plan if a sorcs is getting challenged out by a strong CC character.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I would question guardians because they're effectively bad Dire Avengers. Dire Avengers don't take a platform that makes you think they can tackle a target they actually can't, have a 4+ (which with cover is where you draw the line of how effective 5+ vs 4+ is), have a considerably better range, AND can be BS5.
I think Guardians are decent because you can run them in bigger squads, and they don't have all that much trouble getting into weapon's range with Battle Focus (even more so if taken in a Warhost).
That many rending shots can be utterly nasty, plus I get far less hate for using Guardians than Dire Avengers
I'd have to see it in action before I'd be convinced of its effectiveness. On paper, it doesn't look very threatening but if it performed well against a competitive SM list I'd be very impressed and willing to concede. Several turns of objective capturing is very dependent on the objectives being near your opponent and him not having ObSec (for muties).
I agree that the cent stars weakness is that it's a lot of points. Targeting two units a turn helps a lot of course, and marines in general aren't bad at countering msu since they have some cheap options that can down a mutilator. Its extremely rare to see a list that has no targets cents can fire at that won't just fall over to the tfc, bikes, and drop pods marines bring in addition to the star. At least I haven't seen one yet.
I imagine if a list like that existed it would probably go around the competitive circuit quite quickly since it counters stars in general.
For 40k i prefer Nids for msu. It's not anywhere near the same number of units, but they are all a lot more dangerous.
Edit, I'm surprised you get any hate for running avengers. Everyone is so happy I don't use bikes they don't mind me spamming my favorite unit, warp spiders. If only I could use 4 units again
Guardians, for the points, have a lot more offensive output. Lowered range of course makes them weaker against rapid fire weapons, especially without cover, so you have to be careful, but that many shots can do damage.
I'm not sure about as a stationary weapons platform. It seems like a huge investment for not great weapons imo.
I got hate for Banshees and Rangers with the 6e dex. Some hate for CWE is deserved, probably a lot of it, but not all of it.
I created a Footdar thread.
Jancoran,
The thread we were talking about was in Tactics about CSM facing CWE. It was suggested that Bladestorm would short circuit all of CSMs defenses. I didn't realize Mutis didn't even have Boltgins.
I stood corrected about that, but Bladestorm still makes T5 2+ units (like Mutilators) very, very sad. And it has enhanced utility vs mark of nurgle marines since you are losing a much smaller percentage of your cleared wounds by losing the wounds on a "4". If that makes any sense.
Well, i had a mutilator killed on overwatch with 4 bolters. Good thing there's usually another one or an obli nearby. It's all situational of course.
As for the anti-deathstar list, i consider muti list pretty anti-deathstar-ish. They do have issues vs gladius though. Just too many free obsec. It's very easy to get outscored. Basically, if there's "6 missions 1 turn" or "get a mission for every flag you controle" or some sort of killpoint missions that tourneys like to apply so much, muties are in trouble. On the other hand, what CSM list isn't? And this list is ~83% CSM with only ~17% daemons. And surprise-surprise, gladius wrecks daemon stars in scoring missions all day long too. At least i can deal with a lot of other stuff more or less reliably.
I'm thinking of adding Muties to my future bully boyz in trukks with VSG. What'd be an ideal HQ for this role? I'm thinking of termie sorc without much stuff - just ml3, mutation and familliar. Still quite expensive. Is there any budget version worth the points?
koooaei wrote: I'm thinking of adding Muties to my future bully boyz in trukks with VSG. What'd be an ideal HQ for this role? I'm thinking of termie sorc without much stuff - just ml3, mutation and familliar. Still quite expensive. Is there any budget version worth the points?
No codex to hand, but if allowed maybe swap the combibolter for a power weapon (only like 12 points, I think) to help fit the theme. Maybe model the power weapon to look like a couple of ork boyz, since that is what else you could have spent the points on :p.
I agree the Gets Hot! one is actually decent. That's probably what I'd shoot for. Not that I wouldn't have a choice; Typhus can only roll on Nurgle's. If he had a choice after the single roll, he'd actually be super excellent.
What about a nurgle DP? Probably, he'd be quite expensive though. 355 pts for all the needed gear with mace iirc. And squishy for the points even with 2+ cover.
What's the cheapest effective nurgle sorc for deepstriking?
Nurgle DPs are dependent on rolling the right powers on the biomancy table.
If you do get the right power, they become very hard to remove and can destroy a unit every turn after turn 1-2 (depends on the enemy). They can easily make their points back and absorb a ton of firepower.
Without that, any cover ignoring weapon, like tau have, can kill one. Wraiths and TWC are also a big problem for the DPs.
It's a good unit but very luck dependent. I use it to kill MCs and GMCs
TWC are not a big problem for me cause this lists don't have a lot of shooting, have a mega-deathstar and i have masque.
Tau are a problem, however.
Anywayz, i'm thinking of running something like this:
Bully boyz in trukks - killsaw in each
Masque + beacon daemonettes
Mutant division with VSG to protect trukks and terminator or jumppack sorc. Sorc joins an obli or mutilator. If he gets iron arm, that's a t7 or 8 if i take MoN majority unit. If not - he's gona still have something useful. Will likely go termie sorc for 2+/5++. On the other hand, he looses a precious attack. And if i go jumppack - he can fit with ML3, familliar, MoN and if MANz get rid of 1 killsaw, he also can get gift of mutation. It's pretty helpful from time to time. Ofc, i can go for fewer mutilators but 6 are a magical number. And won't be a lot of super useful stuff to get for 51 pt. Maybe cultists...or more nettes. Or just stick to unmarked.
Nope, trukks are large enough to screen ork boyz and even meganobz to some extent but they're not very solid and you'll still be able to see a few millimetres of a DP. Which is just enough to fire EVERYTHING at him, obviously. Maybe it'll block los if the enemy is very close but not from afar. Now a battlewagon might be able to do it. Can a landraider screen DP?
I've tried an expensive Nurgle DP and was not amazed with it for the points. It really doesn't like ignore cover which is aplenty nowadays. And he's less tough than 2 mutilators unless you fly him above which is a waste of points imo.
Having a glass cannon or an 300pt FMC that can't charge doesn't really help with the threat saturation and durability of the list. Maybe go in a different direction, stay with the Sorc but run the 18" Nova ML4 relic. A Termie Sorc can throw Novas at chaff to free up Meganobz and Mutilators locked in combat, both those hit a lot harder than an upgraded Sorc probably will.
Still no takers on Mutant Division versus Centstar?
If only they had a recursion rule. It's very thematic in cryx, csm could benefit a lot from it. Although honestly it seems more like a daemon or necron thing
Kimchi Gamer wrote: Once I had a unit of Mutilators take out a unit of Tactical Marines so I'm not really sure why people say they aren't any good.
Maybe because Tac Marines are now used as the baseline unit for most things when comparisons are being made? Being able to kill the "average" unit now is no longer that impressive
If you are afraid of losing to Mutas yourself, just write up your Centstar list. I'm sure someone will play it -- in fact I'm not 100% fluent on Vassal but I'll even give it a shot myself.
War Kitten wrote: Maybe because Tac Marines are now used as the baseline unit for most things when comparisons are being made? Being able to kill the "average" unit now is no longer that impressive
I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm. That said, Mutas are not great against Tacs because they kill them slowly and Tacs are Obsec. Battle Company is a bad matchup.
You mean where I asked if someone could point me to where vassal can be downloaded to iPad and if anyone would be willing to play given my internet connection and there was no response?
Akiasura wrote: Judging by the battle reports thus far and how they've died down, I doubt the centstar will be reported.
I'm guessing the eldar report was also never done either.
The Eldar battle report was not done yet. However that had more to do with me not being able to get a time that works for it. I have been practicing with my Eldar Air Force list and have an employee in a very key position that I HAVE to train, so my time is limited to get back to it..
However, it's going to happen. I haven't forgotten.
Yoyoyo wrote: Having a glass cannon or an 300pt FMC that can't charge doesn't really help with the threat saturation and durability of the list. Maybe go in a different direction, stay with the Sorc but run the 18" Nova ML4 relic. A Termie Sorc can throw Novas at chaff to free up Meganobz and Mutilators locked in combat, both those hit a lot harder than an upgraded Sorc probably will.
Still no takers on Mutant Division versus Centstar?
Still waiting, lol. Also, It's quite some cool idea about Nova relic. How much does this sorc cost? It's also blind, right?
By this time i was just fixed on a ML1-2 nurgle sorc. This primaris is quite nice - it can pull a few casualties and ground FMC! CSM list allready has masque to ground fmc, but this list has literally only rokkits and combi-shootas. Also, if i get the curse, it's even better. Both Mazn and Muties perform better with lower str targets to tickle them. No more ID against fists in melee? Yes, please. And shrowding enemies? Pfff, with my shooting it doesn't matter!
Yoyoyo wrote: IOS is not a good idea, it's more trouble than it's worth.
Figure out a way to play on a Mac OS/Win/Linux machine.
If you want to convince colleges across the country to stop adopting the iPad for students, especially their graduate students, by all means please do so. I'm not a fan of it.
But I don't make the rules, and they want us to be 100% compliant with the iPad. That means using their blackboard app, tegrity for recording lectures, examsoft for grading...I don't really have a choice on what system I use. Same with my internet connection. This is the nature of being a professor...it means 10 hour work days, 6 days a week. When you're a science professor with graduate students, you're often in a lab.
Regardless, it was hardly a dodge. I understand that reading is hard though
Jan, glad to hear it's still happening and I look forward to seeing it.
koooaei wrote: Just send some of your students on a vassla struggle against mutilators as part of a scientific project
Haha that would be funny. If I could do things like that, I'd have them doing all my cooking and cleaning...for science!
War hammer would be pretty far down on that list
koooaei wrote: Still waiting, lol. Also, It's quite some cool idea about Nova relic. How much does this sorc cost? It's also blind, right?
Sorc + 2x ML + TDA + Relic + Spell Familiar + VotLW tax = 185pts. Blind was exchanged for Soul Blaze in 7th or it would just be too cool.
The great thing about the Relic for your army is it's anti-MSU. A 36" diameter Nova that ignores LOS is a really unique ability, if you can hit 6-10 units and roll high on your 2D6 that is a ton of damage. The smaller the unit, the easier to check Morale so even 1-2 casualties may break a unit before your Shooting phase. If you generate on Pyromancy there is a chance to reroll wounds, which is what you should want. But Melta Beams and Focused Witchfires can snipe out Grav Cannons and Power Fists, and you can stack the cover save from Fire Shield and Shrouding. So at ML4 it becomes a pretty solid discipline. A neat quirk here is that you can potentially take a 2nd melee weapon in Termie Armor, so you could be running Axe+Maul together if you decide to fish on Biomancy for Iron Arm.
You need to figure in an additional 4pts per Mutilator and 3pts per Oblit as a tax for Black Legion. Usually that's pretty painful but Gladius is probably your most difficult matchup, and all your guys will see combat. For Mutas hitting hard on the first turn is important. Plus there is some extra resiliency against Psychic Shriek, saving just a single wound pays that back.
I am looking for positives but there are definitely drawbacks. It's more expensive, you will be focused immediately, and if not you'll probably die from perils. But there are synergies too. Except for Meganobz. They would be getting hit by the Nova too, which is pretty amusing
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