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 koooaei wrote:
let's play it out. I challenge your centstar in a avassal match.

Well, if it works on iPad and I can essentially "pause" when I need to switch out compounds in the machine I'm using then sure. Does it drop the game of I lose connection? If someone runs the NMR I don't get a signal for a bit.

Although I don't think it does your argument any good when it constantly devolves into the 40k equivalent of "come fight me bro".

I have bolters, but I prefer to never use them if possible. Because they are awful.

I think that BA are a better test. If BA can beat mutilators, we know they are indeed bad.

Akiasura wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
let's play it out. I challenge your centstar in a avassal match.

Well, if it works on iPad and I can essentially "pause" when I need to switch out compounds in the machine I'm using then sure. Does it drop the game of I lose connection? If someone runs the NMR I don't get a signal for a bit.

Although I don't think it does your argument any good when it constantly devolves into the 40k equivalent of "come fight me bro".

There's just no better way to see if it works or not.

Martel732 wrote:
Bolter bait? Who uses bolters?

Eh...seriously dude?

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Bolter bait? Who uses bolters?

Eh...seriously dude?

Actually, I am serious. Bolters are total gak and marine lists do well to minimize the number that they field. I can't tell you how much I hate the boltgun. I'd much rather have an Ork shoota on marines.

Depends on how you define better. A test game, on its own, isn't worth much. We'd have to run a plethora of games in order to determine how the lists compare. This can take time, especially considering my situation with vassal and inexperience using the software. And how long 40k takes to play in general. We could easily be looking at over 20 hours of game play, and that's assuming few games and me being relatively competent with the software (which I probably won't be...apple products are a bit of a pain to use in general imo).

This is why, online, you usually see people running models, simulations, math, or discussing strategies rather than a bunch of battle reports. This isn't different from how all science works...you only go to experimentation after you have a working model or theory, since it's often incredibly expensive and labor intensive to do so.

Is there a link to vassal for iPad? I am unable to find one.

That's a game. It's supposed to be played - not calculated.

It's a game. It's supposed to be whatever you want it to be.

People make calculations for games all the time. It's not right or wrong, it just is.

Anywayz, it'd be fine to see how it fares. Your calculations say that cents will annihilate my list. My calculations show that it's gona be fine. Why not see it in action?

You didn't present calculations.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Bolter bait? Who uses bolters?

Eh...seriously dude?

Actually, I am serious. Bolters are total gak and marine lists do well to minimize the number that they field. I can't tell you how much I hate the boltgun. I'd much rather have an Ork shoota on marines.

Bolters are total gak? Um. well... Generally they are free. So I guess I am wondering why this observation is really even helpful. Lol. You need an anti-depressant and to step away from the ledge. You literally argued with someone who said "Bolter Bait" by replying how gak the FREE bolters people get are. Yet the OP wasn't wrong about it BEING susceptible to bolters which was HIS point.


So either you just want to argue or you are incredibly depressed.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You didn't present calculations.

Spawns + Sorcs + Mutilators = All's gona be fine

 koooaei wrote:
Anywayz, it'd be fine to see how it fares. Your calculations say that cents will annihilate my list. My calculations show that it's gona be fine. Why not see it in action?

I already answered this. It would take an immense amount of time and effort, and apparently vassal won't run on iPad. At least I can't find a link, and I've asked a few times on different threads.

I did not see any calculations on your end in regards to a cent star. Do you mean the mutilators against a single cent without buffs? I don't think that qualifies as calculations since it wasn't even a star and you didn't include everything a cent can do.

I also did not say the cent star alone would annihilate your list. Please stop misquoting me. Notice my breakdown included competitive options that show that, while the cent star wouldn't be amazing, it could still pull its weight and the rest of the list can handle what it doesn't.

It's a pretty typical SM competitive list/options that doesn't include the gladius formation. I'm not sure if your list would be better or worst against the gladius, although I suspect it would do a lot better. I'm not experienced enough with typical gladius builds to say for sure.


Edit; if that's what qualifies as calculations for you I can see why you are so disdainful of them

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Bolter bait? Who uses bolters?

Eh...seriously dude?

Actually, I am serious. Bolters are total gak and marine lists do well to minimize the number that they field. I can't tell you how much I hate the boltgun. I'd much rather have an Ork shoota on marines.

Bolters are total gak? Um. well... Generally they are free. So I guess I am wondering why this observation is really even helpful. Lol. You need an anti-depressant and to step away from the ledge. You literally argued with someone who said "Bolter Bait" by replying how gak the FREE bolters people get are. Yet the OP wasn't wrong about it BEING susceptible to bolters which was HIS point.


So either you just want to argue or you are incredibly depressed.

Or I really hate bolters. There's not much in the game that's actually susceptible to bolters. That's the whole problem with them. That, and turning off assault is a pretty crappy combination.

"Um. well... Generally they are free."

But also mandatory on models that are NOT free. But I'm in the tac marine hater camp, so maybe we just won't agree on this. And I wasn't trying to argue. I was really asking how bolters are relevant to the analysis.

The only ledge I'm on is the frustration ledge. Frustration with how bad standard marine schemes are in 7th. Because that's basically what BA are.

Akiasura wrote:
If the mutilator suffers any wounds, it becomes a lot weaker. At 1 wound, there is now a chance that overwatch or marine basic attacks can wipe it before it even gets to swing, meaning now it can only "bully" tanks (which means, for most marine players, landed pods, rhinos, and razorbacks only).

In fairness, deep stirking in to kill clusters of drop pods is one of the Mutilator's niches and actually gives it a chance to be something more than a liability in kill point games.

True, I think the only problem with that is that the drop pods are not always clustered. If a mutilators can't target one every turn it's not a good use.

But that is one of their uses, absolutely.

Well, yep csm usually have a very weak backline in face of s3 no-nade cultists and hoorors or stuff like that.

Havoks on a sky shield landing pad aren't awful. I like them quite a bit, although they can be targeting by volume of fire. The Eldar dex certainly made them a bit more vulnerable, but that's most of the game.

Haven't had much success with AC havoks. Maybe lazcannon ones are better. My first tests with this list included AC havoks sitting inside an av14 fortification shooting stuff. And i changed them for oblis. Think they generally perform better.

Akiasura wrote:
Havoks on a sky shield landing pad aren't awful. I like them quite a bit, although they can be targeting by volume of fire. The Eldar dex certainly made them a bit more vulnerable, but that's most of the game.

The Eldar codex made EVERYTHING more vulnerable. It's stupid in terms of external balance; even Banshees have a pretty good chance to kill TERMINATORS on the charge.

I think that's more terminators being bad than banshees being amazing. It's more humiliating to have the DA shoot your terminators to death. DA that the terminators can't outshoot and can never catch because of battle focus. Yeah. And that's not even looking at the scatterbike. Because Eldar needed "troops" that hard counter most elites. At any rate, long range wound spam makes havocs look bad.

 koooaei wrote:
Haven't had much success with AC havoks. Maybe lazcannon ones are better. My first tests with this list included AC havoks sitting inside an av14 fortification shooting stuff. And i changed them for oblis. Think they generally perform better.

Lascannons are nice but you can get AP2 elsewhere. You save 40 points and are still generally okay against transports. You're less effective against Monstrous Creatures, but any Monstrous Creature worth a damn isn't going to care about 2-3 Lascannons hitting it.

Try the sky shield landing pad over the av14 fort.
With the mot they always get their 3++ save, which is pretty solid. They can throw a decent amount of firepower downtown from t1. Oblits are very expensive and don't provide anywhere near the same long range firepower, being better off dropping in most of the time.

AV14 was not there to save havoks - it was there for comms relay. Havoks just used it as a convenient bunker. Noone even tried to shoot them other than a demolisher 1-st turn, actually.

I'm just not impressed with their utility. Havoks are just there for damage and scoring. And they are not extremely good at both this things for the points. They're not a liability but oblits performed better in this list a couple times and i'm sticking with them so far. It's probably just cause of redundancy. The more 2w t5 2+/5++ stuff drops where needed - the better.

I've asked people i played against what they think of the list before and after the game. Most were quite confident they'd deal with mutilators easilly but when it came to doing so in the game, not all was so simple - there were many other factors like Spawns up the nose, summoned daemonettes, blos, 3+ cover in ruins when i got this warlord trait. They actually said that mass drop of tough angry mutants was quite intimidating. And it's very demoralizing when you inflict 3 ap2 wounds to a thing and it passes two 5++ saves and now you need to alter your plans emidiately. And it happens pretty often taking into consideration the number of attempts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw i'm thinking of doing something with sorcs cause they underperform in combat for 185-195 pts i pay for them. Maybe i should squeeze in Slaughter horns? I can drop 1 horror and there are gona be 12 free points. Need to drop another 3 from elsewhere. Will try to leave gift of mutation as it's the theme of the list.

 koooaei wrote:

AV14 was not there to save havoks - it was there for comms relay. Havoks just used it as a convenient bunker. Noone even tried to shoot them other than a demolisher 1-st turn, actually.

Ah, okay.
Still, I strongly suggest the skyshield if you haven't tried it. It gives them a degree of toughness that is unmatched against a lot of weapons out there.

 koooaei wrote:

I'm just not impressed with their utility. Havoks are just there for damage and scoring. And they are not extremely good at both this things for the points.

Havoks have some of the most cost efficient shooting in our entire dex. Off hand, I can't think of a unit that does it better for the points.
Not a lot in our dex is extremely good. Spawn and bikes come close, and of couse Belakor. If extremely good is the standard, the army list will be boring indeed for chaos.
If you want them to capture objectives, give them special weapons in a rhino. They aren't bad at it then.

If you want them to sit on an objective, they aren't as good as cultists but they are second best after them for such purposes. I usually just take 2 cheap cultists though to avoid the lord tax.

 koooaei wrote:

They're not a liability but oblits performed better in this list a couple times and i'm sticking with them so far. It's probably just cause of redundancy. The more 2w t5 2+/5++ stuff drops where needed - the better.

If you had more success with oblits, by all means run them. I personally have never gotten good use out of long fangs when I played SW in 5th, although they were one of the strongest units in that dex (if not the strongest), so everyone's personal experience will vary.

I found oblits to be a bit of a liability in my lists. I don't want to run them in teams, and 1 guy being able to fire a different weapon every turn is a really bad point to fire power ratio. I haven't found the best use for the havoks yet. Currently I use them in Rhinos and move them forward for an armored wall approach, or sit them back with heavier weapons. They usually perform better in the Rhinos, but I honestly think it's just that list and not their loadout. A ton of rhinos can be a challenge for some armies (necrons, which are common in my meta, and Marines, which are also common).

 koooaei wrote:

I've asked people i played against what they think of the list before and after the game. Most were quite confident they'd deal with mutilators easilly but when it came to doing so in the game, not all was so simple - there were many other factors like Spawns up the nose, summoned daemonettes, blos, 3+ cover in ruins when i got this warlord trait. They actually said that mass drop of tough angry mutants was quite intimidating.

That's interesting. What were their thoughts on their own lists? Did they think they were taking strong choices, fluffy choices, or what?
I'm not surprised your mutilators performed well against any of the lists you faced, especially the IG player. I'm surprised they thought so.

 koooaei wrote:

And it's very demoralizing when you inflict 3 ap2 wounds to a thing and it passes two 5++ saves and now you need to alter your plans emidiately. And it happens pretty often taking into consideration the number of attempts.

It happens relatively infrequently compared to how often the thing just dies. Frankly, it happens twice as often statistically. Dice can vary, but I don't like planning on good or bad dice.
I would imagine the 8 bolters rapid firing manage to score a wound roughly half the time. Then you have overwatch and all the attacks that happen before the mutilators get to swing. Against HBs I imagine they did very well, but HBs haven't been a standard loadout in...ever? Maybe 2nd or rogue trader.
Even 1 wound on a mutilator before combat can make it dramatically at worse. Oblits you have to actually kill of course, making them a lot better.

Personally, my experience with mutilators has been dramatically different than yours. But the lists I face are also dramatically different than yours.

 koooaei wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw i'm thinking of doing something with sorcs cause they underperform in combat for 185-195 pts i pay for them. Maybe i should squeeze in Slaughter horns? I can drop 1 horror and there are gona be 12 free points. Need to drop another 3 from elsewhere. Will try to leave gift of mutation as it's the theme of the list.

Have you tried Belakor? If you don't use ITC rules he is disgusting. Invisibility on spawn means they will live the entire game against nearly anything.

Even with ITC he helps with the survivability of Spawn.

Akia, if you can't play Vassal (and yes the UI is complicated) why not put forward your Centstar list for someone else?

 koooaei wrote:
Btw i'm thinking of doing something with sorcs cause they underperform in combat for 185-195 pts i pay for them. Maybe i should squeeze in Slaughter horns?

What do you intend for the Sorcs to accomplish? Horns would have put an additional wound on a Grav Cent (1.333 ----> 2.222). It roughly doubles your wounds against T6 on the charge, so you can reliably land 1x Force Weapon hit barring Invul saves. There is good synergy with Force against multiwound targets.

Not as useful against a LOW character like Calgar or Draigo. A buff like Precognition would help you survive longer, and Masque to debuff WS, but you are still against a 3++/4++ save and EW. Expect 3-4 rounds of combat. Horns won't work beyond the first charge, and you'd have to buff a Sorc through the roof to stand a chance. +2S from FC/Force Axe, +1A Rage, reroll hits/wounds/saves from Precog, Masque debuff:

Calgar/Draigo/Shield Eternal Bike CM = Hitting on 5's, 4-5A, Wounding on 2's = About 1-2 wounds, rerollable 4++ gives a good chance to save
Mutant League Sorcerer = Hitting on 3's with reroll, 5A, Wounding T4 on 2's and T5 on 3's with reroll = About 1-2 wounds after 3++/4++ saves

That's best case scenario. You'd prefer to stay out of combat entirely here, so Horns becomes 15x dead points. So there's pros and cons.

I think a Herald with 2 Rewards and a Greater Daemon are more punchy and more disposable than your Sorcs, if you're forced to push them against a big-time CC character. But you're dependent on having the right Malefic power to summon them in the first place.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Btw i'm thinking of doing something with sorcs cause they underperform in combat for 185-195 pts i pay for them. Maybe i should squeeze in Slaughter horns?

What do you intend for the Sorcs to accomplish?

It's just not a rare sight for a sorc to charge and do little with 4 s5 attacks. I'm thinking that a ~7% price increase for 5 s6 attacks might be worth it. Considereing that sorc is the main hitting power against good armor and fnp. If they had H&R i'd not bother. But currently, i consider it to be a problem. If sorc doesn't get warp speed or some debuffs off, he's not frightening in combat. And that's a problem for an almost 200 pt character. They still generally pay off with psy stuff they provide but why not improve them if possible?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

Have you tried Belakor? If you don't use ITC rules he is disgusting. Invisibility on spawn means they will live the entire game against nearly anything.

Belakor is great but what to drop? One sorc and...165 pts of extra stuff?

As for havoks, i know they're not bad but what they do for me is put a HP or Two on something or force a few saves. Not worth it. Oblis are less shooty point-to point but they're a toolbox and they can punh stuff when needed. Also, they're my shooty mutated deepstriking/scoring monsters in this list. And they make non-ap2 weapons loose the targets cause the entire list is armor-, 6+ and 2+. And the important armor- stuff is t6 and often buffed. Nothing in between. There's plenty of ap3 stuff fielded nowadays - mostly with ignore cover for fighting bikes and all of it emidiately looses it's niche. Playing orks taught me the benefits of redundancy quite well.
All in all, oblits fit the theme and perform better or at least not worse. So, here are my main arguements for them. Of course, havoks are great against light skimmers that oblits struggle to scratch unless they get within 24 with an ac and it's limited for a turn. But they can also roast the insides with an occasional HF/TL Flamer => it's more of a trade off rather than a plain downside.

Pics or it didn't happen

 Jancoran wrote:
Pics or it didn't happen

Of oblits?