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It's not that a meta is bad or good, it's that it's competitive or casual. Casual metas can be viewed as better and more fun in many ways, since they allow more unit choices and strategies than a cut throat competitive meta will.

I love dire avengers personally. Battle focus allows me to stay out of rapid fire range which really gives avengers a huge advantage over other troop choices. The blade storm rule is really solid and allows them to fire at a range of targets and still do damage. It's also very easy for them to get cover, since they have a relatively large range for their firepower and BF.

If we didn't have scatbikes, I think Eldar would still do well using avengers. I certainly feel weaker using them, but its not so bad that I can go up against anyone and feel like I'm at a huge disadvantage. Plus the models and Phoenix lord are sweet.

I have not used guardians much since I play biel-tan, so can't comment there. I imagine they'd be much up dependent but could perform even better than avengers against some match ups, and not that much worse in others.

Competitive meta example: I don't recognize Bharring's lists as Eldar lists.

Perhaps we should move the broader footdar conversation to another thread....

Back on topic, I hope a local player throws some Mutis at me some day. If I played CSM, it sounds like a fun strategy.

Msu in general is a really fun strategy. You get way more options and can respond better to situations than someone running larger units. It's much better than moving around 2-3 knights and a deathstar.

I remember when it first came about in fantasy and it completely changed the game. So far it hasn't made as much of an inroad into 40k, although it's starting too since they are changing the way units and special weapons work.

Edit; if you want to make a footdar topic it can be fun. Expect everyone to chime in with bikes/skimmers are better, since no one ever reads the topic of threads.
It's not really a topic that has been explored in 7th, and footdar is viable. I pretty much run it against competitive lists and do ok, and I'm not the best general.

Yip. Asurman for the win.

why the question on Guardians? how did that come up as pertained to Mutilators? You mentioned another discussion or something?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Perhaps we should move the broader footdar conversation to another thread....

Back on topic, I hope a local player throws some Mutis at me some day. If I played CSM, it sounds like a fun strategy.

What is your list? I'd be interested to see what I'd be up against. My Night Lords are what you'd expect: tons o raptors, 3 units of bare bones marines in rhinos, 3 separate mutilators (the unusual part), three separate Obliterators and two Chaos Lords (one on bike the other on wings, both with the same mission). As typical as you please. Add a heldrake on top. Nurgle to make em all tough.

I would question guardians because they're effectively bad Dire Avengers. Dire Avengers don't take a platform that makes you think they can tackle a target they actually can't, have a 4+ (which with cover is where you draw the line of how effective 5+ vs 4+ is), have a considerably better range, AND can be BS5.

Akiasura wrote:
Msu in general is a really fun strategy. You get way more options and can respond better to situations than someone running larger units. It's much better than moving around 2-3 knights and a deathstar.

That's why a Centstar might have a problem against Mutas/Oblits. You can swat 2x every turn, and Centstar will recover its points -- eventually. But meanwhile the MSU isn't under control, so they can spend about 4-5 turns scoring objectives and getting into the face of other units.

I think that would be a great game to see. But Martel, you should definitely put your Blood Angels up against koooaei's list.

 koooaei wrote:
It's just not a rare sight for a sorc to charge and do little with 4 s5 attacks. I'm thinking that a ~7% price increase for 5 s6 attacks might be worth it. Considereing that sorc is the main hitting power against good armor and fnp. If they had H&R i'd not bother. But currently, i consider it to be a problem.

I think you should run the Horns. Why not. You are going to hit the targets that you want to almost twice as hard. But it might still be worth considering the plan if a sorcs is getting challenged out by a strong CC character.

I'm game. BA wouldn't know what a death star was even after a screening of new hope.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I would question guardians because they're effectively bad Dire Avengers. Dire Avengers don't take a platform that makes you think they can tackle a target they actually can't, have a 4+ (which with cover is where you draw the line of how effective 5+ vs 4+ is), have a considerably better range, AND can be BS5.

I think Guardians are decent because you can run them in bigger squads, and they don't have all that much trouble getting into weapon's range with Battle Focus (even more so if taken in a Warhost).
That many rending shots can be utterly nasty, plus I get far less hate for using Guardians than Dire Avengers

I'd have to see it in action before I'd be convinced of its effectiveness. On paper, it doesn't look very threatening but if it performed well against a competitive SM list I'd be very impressed and willing to concede. Several turns of objective capturing is very dependent on the objectives being near your opponent and him not having ObSec (for muties).

I agree that the cent stars weakness is that it's a lot of points. Targeting two units a turn helps a lot of course, and marines in general aren't bad at countering msu since they have some cheap options that can down a mutilator. Its extremely rare to see a list that has no targets cents can fire at that won't just fall over to the tfc, bikes, and drop pods marines bring in addition to the star. At least I haven't seen one yet.

I imagine if a list like that existed it would probably go around the competitive circuit quite quickly since it counters stars in general.

For 40k i prefer Nids for msu. It's not anywhere near the same number of units, but they are all a lot more dangerous.


Edit, I'm surprised you get any hate for running avengers. Everyone is so happy I don't use bikes they don't mind me spamming my favorite unit, warp spiders. If only I could use 4 units again

Guardians, for the points, have a lot more offensive output. Lowered range of course makes them weaker against rapid fire weapons, especially without cover, so you have to be careful, but that many shots can do damage.
I'm not sure about as a stationary weapons platform. It seems like a huge investment for not great weapons imo.

I got hate for Banshees and Rangers with the 6e dex. Some hate for CWE is deserved, probably a lot of it, but not all of it.

I created a Footdar thread.

Jancoran,
The thread we were talking about was in Tactics about CSM facing CWE. It was suggested that Bladestorm would short circuit all of CSMs defenses. I didn't realize Mutis didn't even have Boltgins.

I stood corrected about that, but Bladestorm still makes T5 2+ units (like Mutilators) very, very sad. And it has enhanced utility vs mark of nurgle marines since you are losing a much smaller percentage of your cleared wounds by losing the wounds on a "4". If that makes any sense.

And I overlooked overwatch, which is another 25% of their shooting.

Well, i had a mutilator killed on overwatch with 4 bolters. Good thing there's usually another one or an obli nearby. It's all situational of course.

As for the anti-deathstar list, i consider muti list pretty anti-deathstar-ish. They do have issues vs gladius though. Just too many free obsec. It's very easy to get outscored. Basically, if there's "6 missions 1 turn" or "get a mission for every flag you controle" or some sort of killpoint missions that tourneys like to apply so much, muties are in trouble. On the other hand, what CSM list isn't? And this list is ~83% CSM with only ~17% daemons. And surprise-surprise, gladius wrecks daemon stars in scoring missions all day long too. At least i can deal with a lot of other stuff more or less reliably.

I'm thinking of adding Muties to my future bully boyz in trukks with VSG. What'd be an ideal HQ for this role? I'm thinking of termie sorc without much stuff - just ml3, mutation and familliar. Still quite expensive. Is there any budget version worth the points?

Don't bother with the terminator armor it's largely a waste.

 koooaei wrote:
I'm thinking of adding Muties to my future bully boyz in trukks with VSG. What'd be an ideal HQ for this role? I'm thinking of termie sorc without much stuff - just ml3, mutation and familliar. Still quite expensive. Is there any budget version worth the points?

No codex to hand, but if allowed maybe swap the combibolter for a power weapon (only like 12 points, I think) to help fit the theme. Maybe model the power weapon to look like a couple of ork boyz, since that is what else you could have spent the points on :p.

Maybe a nurgle termie lord won't be.

If you want a Nurgle foot Lord with Terminator armor, it might as well be Typhus.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you want a Nurgle foot Lord with Terminator armor, it might as well be Typhus.

or even if you want a sorcerer he delivers (provided you are happy with rot power)!

Well, they're not that bad actually. The curse one in particular.

I agree the Gets Hot! one is actually decent. That's probably what I'd shoot for. Not that I wouldn't have a choice; Typhus can only roll on Nurgle's. If he had a choice after the single roll, he'd actually be super excellent.

Gets hot! on scatterbikes would be hilarious.

Martel732 wrote:
Gets hot! on scatterbikes would be hilarious.

That would really put scatterbikers in the....hot seat.

Forgive me

It kinda works. You have to be able to camp his Spawn retinue in cover so that they don't fall over though.

What about a nurgle DP? Probably, he'd be quite expensive though. 355 pts for all the needed gear with mace iirc. And squishy for the points even with 2+ cover.

What's the cheapest effective nurgle sorc for deepstriking?

Nurgle DPs are dependent on rolling the right powers on the biomancy table.

If you do get the right power, they become very hard to remove and can destroy a unit every turn after turn 1-2 (depends on the enemy). They can easily make their points back and absorb a ton of firepower.

Without that, any cover ignoring weapon, like tau have, can kill one. Wraiths and TWC are also a big problem for the DPs.

It's a good unit but very luck dependent. I use it to kill MCs and GMCs

TWC are not a big problem for me cause this lists don't have a lot of shooting, have a mega-deathstar and i have masque.

Tau are a problem, however.

Anywayz, i'm thinking of running something like this:
Bully boyz in trukks - killsaw in each
Masque + beacon daemonettes
Mutant division with VSG to protect trukks and terminator or jumppack sorc. Sorc joins an obli or mutilator. If he gets iron arm, that's a t7 or 8 if i take MoN majority unit. If not - he's gona still have something useful. Will likely go termie sorc for 2+/5++. On the other hand, he looses a precious attack. And if i go jumppack - he can fit with ML3, familliar, MoN and if MANz get rid of 1 killsaw, he also can get gift of mutation. It's pretty helpful from time to time. Ofc, i can go for fewer mutilators but 6 are a magical number. And won't be a lot of super useful stuff to get for 51 pt. Maybe cultists...or more nettes. Or just stick to unmarked.

So many options.

Are trukks big enough to screen a DP on foot from LOS?

Hilariously if you don't buy 3+ armor, Grav will be less of an issue.

Nope, trukks are large enough to screen ork boyz and even meganobz to some extent but they're not very solid and you'll still be able to see a few millimetres of a DP. Which is just enough to fire EVERYTHING at him, obviously. Maybe it'll block los if the enemy is very close but not from afar. Now a battlewagon might be able to do it. Can a landraider screen DP?
I've tried an expensive Nurgle DP and was not amazed with it for the points. It really doesn't like ignore cover which is aplenty nowadays. And he's less tough than 2 mutilators unless you fly him above which is a waste of points imo.