Better episode but I'm trying to recall if we've ever seen The Klingons torture someone before. That's always been more of a Romulan and Cardassian thing. They also never talk about honour. I kind of wish they had just made this an all new alien species. There's no way this is just some other unseen race of Klingons. They don't even have detached ears and their skulls are so elongated they're barely humanoid. I don't see how this is the same species. That and the fact even their culture seems different it would have just been better to call them something else.

Ah. I hadn't bothered to look them up. That is.. pretty bad. Sometimes I don't know what goes through people's heads, especially when making a new version of entertainment.

Episode 5 was a cracker! Nice to see Lorca and Saru get some really good scenes focusing purely on them, and with a bit more focus on Tilly and Stamets you can really start to see the classic ST influences in there. The spore drive gets a bit more explained which is a good thing (still technobabble, but less vague technobabble! ) and there were some interesting new characters introduced, especially the two introduced via Lorca's scenes.

To be honest, I'm just assuming that Starfleet ships and Klingons always "really" looked like that but the effects got better. Inconsistencies between different series only bother me when they waste time picking at them onscreen. Trials and Tribble-ations had the second-best way, IMO, of addressing the change inKlingons (the best would have been to have Worf appear like a TOS Klingon whenever he was in the past, with no attention drawn to it at all).

I'm with Andrew on that. I think trying to create a canon explanation for having a better budget and make up crew was one of the dumbest things Star Trek ever did. Even Roddenberry wasn't that obsessed. He just asked fans to "pretend they always looked like that" in reference to the STIII/TNG redesign.

This is the obsession of trivial and petty details that annoys me about fandom.

Who determines what is petty and trivial?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Who determines what is petty and trivial?

If it has nothing to do with the plot it is trivial. If It has nothing to do with the plot, and is ultimately just an aesthetic detail that could be a thousand other things, it is petty

So speakith Hat. Lord Master of all Determinations

EDIT: Although I guess that's really a tautology isn't it... They're kind of the same thing. Oh well.

Star Trek has a single plot? I thought it was known for its characters and vision. For me, STD kept what was petty and trivial and lost what was important.

I just think it's stupid to become so self-obsessed with unimportant details that you task the writers with explaining why the Klingons didn't have head ridges and fangs 40 years ago cause I mean come on. That's what we're going to spend the crisis of the week on? Canonizing our improved budget? Somehow though someone felt it was so necessary they dedicated two dreadful episodes to the most forced, and contrived explanation possible instead of simply running with the "well we could have just kept giving Klingon's mustaches and bowl cuts but we thought we could make them look cooler" explanation at fan conventions.

Maybe Discovery will spend an episode explaining why the Cardassians stopped wearing those stupid face things that they only wore in that one episode, instead of just letting everyone quietly forget that mistake and be happy with how much better everything looked without them. It would be an absolute waste of an hour, but hey it is oh so important that everyone understand why the Cardassians stopped wearing those! I mean they started eating people after they became sentient! That's gotta be worth at least 45 minutes of bandwidth EDIT: And then of course they'll have to move on to explaining why Gul Macet was the only Cardassian to ever sport facial hair, cause I seriously want to know what he (or his hair...) did to make all Cardassians avoid developing even five o'clock shadow!

I wasn't really commenting on STD, which I will continue to boycott until it reaches a platform where I'm not tossing money just to watch the one show.

Tilly and Lt fungus-man remind me of SFDebris' review of Star Trek First Contact; all the unfortunates who joined Starfleet to study gas anomalies, stellar phenomena or space whales, and suddenly end up neck-deep in a war. In ST:FC they just got assimilated in the first ten minutes; perhaps Discovery will be able to go somewhere with that idea.

KLINGONS DONT TOTURE

except when they do

This doesn't really stretch credibility. Among an entire race, there is bound to be some range of cultural values. "Honor" is a pretty broad, vague term anyhow. Plus if you are following the show closely enough to complain about details you might also have noticed that among the 24 great houses, the House of Mókai (to which L'Rell belongs) are "watchers, deceivers, and weavers of lies" considered dishonorable by other houses. So if you consider torture to be dishonorable, in the Klingon sense, then it should make sense to you that the House of Mókai practice it.

Klingon WARRIORS don't torture - except when it's fun. There's been precious little shown of actual warriors in this series so far.

The tombship in the pilot seemed to be crewed by religious nutters (they believe in "the black fleet", not "Sto'vo'kor" - which already marks them as religious deviants) not warriors.

But this wasn't a "warship" so much as a "prisoner transport".

I'm sure the klingon crew found such a task to be beneath them and without honour (and anyone who allows themselves to be captured so easily deserves no honourable death. )

So they're probably just bored.

Mmm sounds like fun to watch.

It was an awesome episode (f bombs aside) with Lorca and Tyler kicking some Klingon butt.

An interesting comparison would Imperial japan in WWII and how they justified their atrosities.

In their world view warriors do not surrender and die before being captured (which is on par with what the Klingons have been shown to do). Therefore people who did surrender and chose capture over death in battle or suicide were beneath contempt.

So I had no trouble squaring Klingon honor and torture.

Overall good show, I won't even bring up my peeves this time

Was anyone else super embarassed by f bombs in Star Trek?

NOT UR DADS TRAK

I would be annoyed on principle, ST is perhaps not the place for, as Spock would say, 'colourful metaphors'. On the other hand, I didn't feel they were forced in or anything, and seemed in character; Tilly already has a history of blurting things out without thinking. I also respect the fact that it brought in a little bit of a sense of wonder in those characters, what's that if not classic Trek? The phrasing is certainly cruder, but in a way this is Discovery's answer to Picard's musings on the mysteries and wonders of space. At least they're doing some actual science and discovery and getting rather excited about it, while everyone else on the ship is busy blowing up klingons.

It also reminds me a bit of Data's 'Oh S%$£' in ST: Generations. There will be people outraged by it, but I'm not among them. I'm against gratuitous swearing just for the sake of it (outside of stuff like Hot Fuzz or Kingsman where the fact it's so over the top is the joke in and of itself) but this didn't seem forced in just because they had the 15 certificate, it worked as a natural reaction by those characters.

Yikes I dunno - yes, it made sense in a certain way but it also felt extremely contrived ... sort of like shoehorning Beastie Boys into a Star Trek movie.

Hey kids Star Trek is totally rad!

Was an ok episode for me but unsure if it drove the over arching plot on that much.
Seemed like a bit of an excuse to give the Captain some air time and delve into some "science stuff" rather than pewpewing again.
On we go.

I actually loved the swearing for the way it was delivered.

That's F'ing cool! OhmygodImsosorryIsaidthat!
No. No. You're right. That Is F'ing cool!

It made them feel more real to me.

I felt they suitably expressed the characters excitement.

I mean, Tilly is, if I remember correctly, not that long out of the academy - and has underdeveloped social skills.

The swearing was contextual, and not Torchwood Inappropriate (where random swearies seemed to have been dropped into the script completely at random). She was impressed and excited, and clearly blurted it out.

It worked.

 Manchu wrote:
Yikes I dunno - yes, it made sense in a certain way but it also felt extremely contrived ... sort of like shoehorning Beastie Boys into a Star Trek movie.

Hey kids Star Trek is totally rad!

I think the first f-bomb in all of Star Trek was in Star Trek (2009) when young Jim Kirk is driving a stolen car and puts on the Sabotage by The Beastie Boys.

I can't stand it I know you planned it
But I'm gonna set it straight, this Watergate
I can't stand rocking when I'm in here
Because your crystal ball ain't so crystal clear
So while you sit back and wonder why
I got this f***ing thorn in my side

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeRghYqi090

When Sabotage next appeared in "Beyond" it seems they only had the radio edit on file as the f-bomb was missing from the song.

It's good to know that the Beastie Boys were still able to release music during the Eugenics Wars.

Sabotage was the wrong choice of song.

Everyone know's that when it's time to give the bad guys a proper shoeing out of the leftfield, you put on The Damned's 'Smash It Up'.

It's the only way.

I how to the level of scholarship on ST F bombs

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
An interesting comparison would Imperial japan in WWII and how they justified their atrosities.

In their world view warriors do not surrender and die before being captured (which is on par with what the Klingons have been shown to do). Therefore people who did surrender and chose capture over death in battle or suicide were beneath contempt.

So I had no trouble squaring Klingon honor and torture.

Overall good show, I won't even bring up my peeves this time

I've always likened the Klingons to Imperial Japan in WWII and that's how I look at the whole torture thing too. I'm just saying I haven't seen them ever do that before and the way the Starfleet officers are talking it was like there's a 100% chance of being brutally tortured if you captured by The Klingons. That wasn't even true of the Japanese in WWII. If you're captured by Romulans or Cardassians there is definitely a 100% chance of torture but never took Klingons to be like that. Also, haven't even heard them mention any kind of code of honour.

edit: definitely not defiantly

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I'm just saying I haven't seen them ever do that before and the way the Starfleet officers are talking it was like there's a 100% chance of being brutally tortured if you captured by The Klingons.

I'm sitting here trying to think and sure enough I can't think of any instance of the Klingons employing outright torture. Cruel mistreatment and inflicting horrible conditions on people yes, but going out of ones way to inflict pain for pains sake (or to acquire information)? Nope I'm drawing a blank. To be fair I think being a prisoner of the Klingons could easily be figurative torture, but I can't find any instance of the Klingons employing literal torture.

On Organia. Threatened use of a "mind sifter."

FWIW In TNG forward, Klingons are mostly portrayed as Fed allies.

But they did fight a war during DS9

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
But they did fight a war during DS9

Yes, the Klingons forgot the all important rule.

Bros before planetary star systems

Well, for those who thought (or more correctly, hoped) that Discovery would die in ignomy, I got some bad news.

‘Star Trek: Discovery’ is returning for a second season

Clearly, all those threads about who Ash Tyler really is justifies the studio's faith.

The experiment has been a success, because news has just dropped that CBS is renewing Star Trek: Discovery. The show, which was used as a tentpole to launch CBS' All Access streaming service, has been enough of a success to justify a second season of episodes. The move comes as a vote of confidence for both the show and its platform, since it has recently aired the sixth of its fifteen-episode first season. Now, a second run of Discovery will air, presumably at some point toward the back-half of 2018.

Discovery has certainly benefited from plenty of hype, since it's the first Trek show to air as a TV show since 2005. The pull of the Star Trek name was always going to be a draw, but it wasn't clear how much of a draw given the saga's lackluster popularity at the box office. CBS refused to offer numbers, but did boast that Discovery's debut lead to the highest number of sign-ups in the history of its All Access service.

The show itself was also plagued by pre-production woes, including the acrimonious departure of star producer Bryan Fuller. According to Entertainment Weekly, Fuller's replacements, Gretchen J. Berg and Aaron Harberts, are expected to remain in charge of the show for another year. Outside of Canada, the show will apparently remain on Netflix, since the official partnership account confirmed the renewal.

I'm delighted by this. I think I'm the only person in the world who's really enjoying Discovery.

pgmason wrote:
I'm delighted by this. I think I'm the only person in the world who's really enjoying Discovery.

Nope, count me in as well. I was very ready to absolutely pan Discovery, pretty much none of the marketing made me think there was a show worth watching in there and it all seemed very 'style over substance' like the Abrams films (which I do hate). However, I said I'd give it a fair shot and so far I've really enjoyed every episode, it's probably my favourite thing on at the moment (at least until Stranger Things comes back in a few days...). I'm very pleased it's got a second season, I look forward to seeing what the cast and crew can do now they've found their identity as a show and (hopefully) won't be beset by the production troubles this first series had.

I'm delighted by this. I think I'm the only person in the world who's really enjoying Discovery.

Count me in too. It aint perfect by any means but I really look forward to it each week!

Monday night has turned into Star Trek night for me. To the point where I was getting ready for work this morning and thought "Hey, new Star Trek episode tonight!"

I never would have expected this in a million years!

I like it too but I think the last episode actually did fall into all the fears people have over the show. Style over substance and overly grimdark.

 Breotan wrote:
Well, for those who thought (or more correctly, hoped) that Discovery would die in ignomy, I got some bad news.

Star Trek: Discovery’ is returning for a second season

There's no accounting for taste, I guess.

That said, I wouldn't expect CBS to admit failure of All Access, and Discovery, by extension.

Discovery is a "success" only because it absolutely needs to be, regardless of how poor the actual show and numbers might be. Otherwise, CBS has to shutter All Access and broker a deal for distribution outside their control. Discovery can continue to be a gak show, losing money hand over fist, and it'd still be deemed a "success" because it's in-house.

To be fair there was that one Vulcan back in DS9 who was procuring weapons for a terrorist organization, and the other one who was a murderer in the final season. While Roddenberry wasn't really involved in the show, the idea that a strictly logical mindset, absent "emotional" considerations, might lead someone to "extreme" action isn't entirely new to the franchise.

Aside from Discovery, what else actually is on CBS All Access?

"Discovery's debut lead to the highest number of sign-ups in the history of its All Access service. "

After all
Going from 0 subscribers to 1, is an infinity percent increase...

Well it is disappointing cause while I don't want Discovery to fail per se, I definitely want All Access to fail, and hard. The idea of networks putting exclusive content on their own streaming services irks me and isn't the way I want the market to develop.

Malevolent Vulcan factions are nothing new. See ENT.

 LordofHats wrote:
Well it is disappointing cause while I don't want Discovery to fail per se, I definitely want All Access to fail, and hard. The idea of networks putting exclusive content on their own streaming services irks me and isn't the way I want the market to develop.

And that is precisely why Discovery, and by extension, All Access, is a "success".

We'll see that CBS will "invest" a ridiculous amount of money to force people to pay them directly, rather than Hulu or Netflix.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


And that is precisely why Discovery, and by extension, All Access, is a "success".

I think that really only works in a short term concept though. They can stick with it, like EA did with Origin, and hope that eventually people just cave and pay them which might work. Alternatively it could end up like Windows Live, which was a burning failure for years straight and eventually Microsoft just let the ghost die. I want the later, but the sad truth is that I expect the former

 LordofHats wrote:
To be fair there was that one Vulcan back in DS9 who was procuring weapons for a terrorist organization, and the other one who was a murderer in the final season. While Roddenberry wasn't really involved in the show, the idea that a strictly logical mindset, absent "emotional" considerations, might lead someone to "extreme" action isn't entirely new to the franchise.

The latter was just a guy with some kind of psychosis. The latter "terrorist" subscribed to the whole one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter fighter school of logic. Wasn't she maquis? There's a certain logic to the maquis that's a compelling moral quandry rather than throw away bad guys we've gotten here. Suddenly we have Vulcan ISIS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Malevolent Vulcan factions are nothing new. See ENT.

The Vulcans in Enterprise were mainly just jerks.

Again, during ENT, the Vulcan High Command itself was secretly controlled by a radical faction.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
To be fair there was that one Vulcan back in DS9 who was procuring weapons for a terrorist organization, and the other one who was a murderer in the final season. While Roddenberry wasn't really involved in the show, the idea that a strictly logical mindset, absent "emotional" considerations, might lead someone to "extreme" action isn't entirely new to the franchise.

The latter was just a guy with some kind of psychosis. The latter "terrorist" subscribed to the whole one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter fighter school of logic. Wasn't she maquis? There's a certain logic to the maquis that's a compelling moral quandry rather than throw away bad guys we've gotten here. Suddenly we have Vulcan ISIS.

'We don't like Cardassians so... boom go federation outposts?' I'm not sure what the moral quandary was supposed to be. Federation citizens have literally everything they could ever want. That they are inconvenienced by a treaty that solidifies borders so they can't 'Wild West' colonize those planets (as opposed to dozens of others) doesn't justify murder, terrorism and trying to spark wars.

 Manchu wrote:
Again, during ENT, the Vulcan High Command itself was secretly controlled by a radical faction.

I don't recall that. What happened?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:


The latter was just a guy with some kind of psychosis. The latter "terrorist" subscribed to the whole one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter fighter school of logic.

The Maquis did have a compelling and sympathetic reason for their actions, but that doesn't change that they engaged in terrorist tactics to achieve their goal. A Vulcan was full on board with them, up until she got out logic'd by Quark of all people And yeah, the other guy had a psychosis, but it was driven by his inability to solve a logical quandary. In both cases, Vulcans engaged in violent and extreme acts in spite of "logic." It's not inconceivable that there exist or existed radical Vulcans who engaged in violent actions and could logically justify them.

The Vulcans in Enterprise were mainly just jerks.

Hey. Lets call them what they were.

Aholes working for those damn douchebag Romulans

Voss wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
To be fair there was that one Vulcan back in DS9 who was procuring weapons for a terrorist organization, and the other one who was a murderer in the final season. While Roddenberry wasn't really involved in the show, the idea that a strictly logical mindset, absent "emotional" considerations, might lead someone to "extreme" action isn't entirely new to the franchise.

The latter was just a guy with some kind of psychosis. The latter "terrorist" subscribed to the whole one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter fighter school of logic. Wasn't she maquis? There's a certain logic to the maquis that's a compelling moral quandry rather than throw away bad guys we've gotten here. Suddenly we have Vulcan ISIS.

'We don't like Cardassians so... boom go federation outposts?' I'm not sure what the moral quandary was supposed to be. Federation citizens have literally everything they could ever want. That they are inconvenienced by a treaty that solidifies borders so they can't 'Wild West' colonize those planets (as opposed to dozens of others) doesn't justify murder, terrorism and trying to spark wars.

It's not like I'm a maquis supporter or something but I think you're oversimplifying it there.. The Maquis were former Federation citizens that gave up their citizenship rather than be relocated from their homes after the treaty moved the border. They would supposedly live in peace in a neutral zone but the Cardassian Union took illegal steps to intimidate them into leaving. They basically used Cardassians living in the area as a proxy army and armed them and encouraged them to use violence against former feds. The maquis were a response to that.
Once again I think it's pretty obvious that that's how it would go for them once they gave up the protection of The Federation so I don't sympathize with them that much.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Again, during ENT, the Vulcan High Command itself was secretly controlled by a radical faction.

I don't recall that. What happened?

At the time of Enterprise, the Vulcan High Command operated on a very radical interpretation of Surak's philosophy, which had become very common and rigidly enforced among the population up until original copies of Surak's work became public knowledge.

In the 4th season of ENT it was revealed that the High Command the were secretly being manipulated by Vulcans operating as agents of the Romulans (this was when ENT was setting the groundwork for the Earth-Romulan War), and I think it's unclear to what extent the High Command radical interpretations and enforcement of their philosophy was heartfelt or simply a guise to effect control of Vulcan by Romulus. The series was cancelled right as this plot started to develop.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
What happened?

There was a faction who believed Vulcan culture was corrupt, called the Syrannites. Among other things, they were somewhat xenophobic against humans. So they got blamed when the human embassy on Vulcan got bombed. Actually, that was the work of the Vulcan government itself - which at the time was led by a guy working for/with the Romulans. The plan was to invade Andoria and reunite the Romulans and Vulcans. Since that plan fell through, the Syrannite faction came to power.

 LordofHats wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:


The latter was just a guy with some kind of psychosis. The latter "terrorist" subscribed to the whole one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter fighter school of logic.

The Maquis did have a compelling and sympathetic reason for their actions, but that doesn't change that they engaged in terrorist tactics to achieve their goal. A Vulcan was full on board with them, up until she got out logic'd by Quark of all people And yeah, the other guy had a psychosis, but it was driven by his inability to solve a logical quandary. In both cases, Vulcans engaged in violent and extreme acts in spite of "logic." It's not inconceivable that there exist or existed radical Vulcans who engaged in violent actions and could logically justify them.

Not saying that its not possible but you have to admit there's something a little different here. This is an Vulcan suicide bomber trying to murder a completely innocent fellow vulcan for the cause of Xenophobia! That's a pretty big leap of Villainy for any Vulcan we've seen previously. I think if other series would have had something like that it would have been the focus of the entire episode. Here its just a minor plot point to get to the Kung Fu dream fighting.
Anyway, struck me as more than a little weird but maybe that's just me.

See above ...

Also Vulcan philosophy =/= strict non-violence. Surak rescued the Vulcans from an age of self-destructive warfare that resulted in dissenters leaving en mass. Surak's teachings apparently encourage Vulcans to think critically about using violence but certainly not to disavow, especially not externally (e.g., the "Vulcan hello").

 LordofHats wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Again, during ENT, the Vulcan High Command itself was secretly controlled by a radical faction.

I don't recall that. What happened?

At the time of Enterprise, the Vulcan High Command operated on a very radical interpretation of Surak's philosophy, which had become very common and rigidly enforced among the population up until original copies of Surak's work became public knowledge.

In the 4th season of ENT it was revealed that the High Command the were secretly being manipulated by Vulcans operating as agents of the Romulans (this was when ENT was setting the groundwork for the Earth-Romulan War), and I think it's unclear to what extent the High Command radical interpretations and enforcement of their philosophy was heartfelt or simply a guise to effect control of Vulcan by Romulus. The series was cancelled right as this plot started to develop.

Yeesh, probably not coincidentally as well. We'll see if villainous Vulcans are more fruitful for STD.

The plot in question from ENT was very good IMO.

From the beginning of ENT, the most interesting thing was how the show fleshed out the relationships between the eventual founding members of the Federation: humans, Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellerites. The Vulcans and Andorians were deep into a cold war at the start of the series. Archer, too, was suspicious of the Vulcans treatment of humans. Both he and the Andorians were very much justified in their perspectives.

Vulcan xenophobia was a long-running theme in ENT. I pretty much guessed as soon as the dude in Discovery injected whatever into his skin aboard Sarek's shuttle that he would be a Vulcan supremacist. If you've been following Trek, there is nothing novel or surprising about it.

 Manchu wrote:
The plot in question from ENT was very good IMO.

From the beginning of ENT, the most interesting thing was how the show fleshed out the relationships between the eventual founding members of the Federation: humans, Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellerites. The Vulcans and Andorians were deep into a cold war at the start of the series. Archer, too, was suspicious of the Vulcans treatment of humans. Both he and the Andorians were very much justified in their perspectives.

Vulcan xenophobia was a long-running theme in ENT. I pretty much guessed as soon as the dude in Discovery injected whatever into his skin aboard Sarek's shuttle that he would be a Vulcan supremacist. If you've been following Trek, there is nothing novel or surprising about it.

Holodeck Simulations don't count

Watched the first 6 episodes, was mostly pleasantly surprised.

Don't mind most of the retconning even if a lot of it feels awkward, really what irked me most was them hamfisted forcing of tired cliche lines for their own sake and some of the more painfully unsubtle explanations of *everything*.

Overall though, it's at least interesting to watch, not the best SciFi show ever, but better than I would have expected out of a network like CBS. Was expecting a 2/10 and got a decent 6.5/10, enough that I don't mind spending the time to torrent and watch it on lazy afternoons

I figure since I was willing to extend the courtesy of 3 seasons (for the prior 4 shows) before they "got good*", I should do the same for this one. They ALL had a very dodgy first three seasons (and they were full 22-26 episode seasons for the most part).

* Voyager NEVER "got good", it just stopped sucking like a dyson.

Not STOS. It was good from the start, else we would not be having this conversation.

Episode 7 was a good one.

Fairly classic Trek Timeloop fare, without feeling like it's all been done before.

Really getting into Discovery now.

Really Star Trek feeling episode. Rescue a space whale like you've got a mission other than blowing up Klingons, time shenanigans, humour, members of the crew acting as if they actually like each other... Fun! Best episode yet, by miles.

On the 'actually liking each other' thing, that's a good point.

For me, it's the crew beginning to gel together naturally, as they would in real life.

And a good pay off it's been too!

Really Star Trek feeling episode. Rescue a space whale like you've got a mission other than blowing up Klingons, time shenanigans, humour, members of the crew acting as if they actually like each other... Fun! Best episode yet, by miles.

So you're saying that they started ripping off The Orville?

Hahahah!

 bbb wrote:

Really Star Trek feeling episode. Rescue a space whale like you've got a mission other than blowing up Klingons, time shenanigans, humour, members of the crew acting as if they actually like each other... Fun! Best episode yet, by miles.

So you're saying that they started ripping off The Orville?

Haven't seen that, and don't wanna. Entirely because of Seth 'smug git of the year award since forever winner' McFarlane is involved, and I can't stand him.

Yuk, my least fav episode so far. If this was their attempt at a bottle episode in homage to stand alone sci fi episodes, then they really need to stick to the main plot and arc.
TNG Cause and Effect it definitely was not.....

It was strange how it was still Burnham-centric. In other series I think that would have been a Stamets episode. It was his weirdness that saved the day but somehow it still ended up being Burnham. I guess it's more like TOS in that way than the other series.

Still liking it, still finding a dozen nits to pick each episode, but life's too short for me to seek out reasons to be unhappy.



But yeah, a bit less Burnam please and...

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Still liking it, still finding a dozen nits to pick each episode, but life's too short for me to seek out reasons to be unhappy.



But yeah, a bit less Burnam please and...

Spoiler:

COuld they make it a little LESS obvious that Ash is a Klingon? I mean I counted 3 or 4 clues in the time loop episode alone

Who's a what now?

EDIT: Oh, the new security guy....interesting....I'll have to keep an eye out for that now.

I mean, I just kind of assumed that from the start with him. I’d be curious what you thought were the clues given though.

Lessee...



All that being said, I really like the time warp episode (but for letting Mudd go, I mean really?)

Last episode was one of the best imo. Had some actual Star Treking, some discovering, some diplomacy, some character development and they still found time for a space battle.

Episode 8 was good fun. Further character building, and reasonable advancement of the plot.

The last episode was surprisingly too. It was like a season Finale.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The last episode was surprisingly too. It was like a season Finale.

Spoiler:

Really didn't think the Klingon Big Bad would die there. Figured it would be tha end of the season at least but I'm glad it's not being predictable. And ya....the new chief of security it totally a Klingon. They even showed them doing surgery on his forehead. That would have been enough for the old style Klingons but they must have mixed in some human DNA because this batch of Klingons skull is even different shaped. Also, I'm guessing we have just spore jumped into the dark mirror universe.

All in all, a fantastic episode to round out the first half of the series. I think it's really hit its stride now, figured out what it wants to be and I can't wait to see where it's going come January.

“Just one last jump”

All hands on deck! Hoist the death flag!

Nice season 1 overall. As I said previously, its strenghts are definitely in its pace and production values.
They need to flesh out some characters more, tie up the Klingon war season 2/move onto another arc or enemy and stick to what it does best.

Were they still at war with the Klingons at the beginning of TOS or had that been resolved?

 AduroT wrote:
Were they still at war with the Klingons at the beginning of TOS or had that been resolved?

"Captain Kirk, there has been no formal declaration of hostilities between our respective governments. Our stay here will be a peaceful one."

Trouble with Tribbles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So at least by that time, no open war.

Overall I'm pretty happy. And I'll take the throw away line about parallel universes as a stick to beat down my nitpicks.

Like I said life's too short to actively seek out reasons to be unhappy.

Expected a god awful, limbs everywhere oh the humanity car crash of a series.

And I got pretty much the opposite.

For a mere 9 episodes in, it's doing pretty well, but I'd echo the calls for other characters to be fleshed out. That was always one of Trek's strengths, taking the time to bring ancillary into the main (take O'Brien. Bit part in TNG, main and excellent character in DS9. He's an extreme example, but a good one).

More on The Bridge Crew. And this time, any chance of showing us the 'other shifts' Bridge Crew? You know, the ones that when the Captain and his First Picks are off in the land of Nod, manage to fly the ship without causing or getting caught up in any trouble whatsoever? Those ones. The one's that aren't a jinx.

Wait? So that was the series Finale?

Nope, mid-season 'finale', they're on a break until January to finish post-production on the rest of the series. Which is fairly typical for US shows.

And it’s back. Episode 10 available on Netflix as of now.

Quite an enjoyable episode.

Cracking return in episode 10, definitely one of my favourites so far.

I binged Discovery over Christmas, thanks to my dad getting Netflix.

I'm kinda mixed about it overall, though heavily towards liking it. - It's not the inspirational, 'we believe in you, humanity can do the thing' Star Trek I would have hoped for but ultimately it still holds onto its moral core far stronger than reading the reviews of the episodes suggested.

- For example, Lorca is very much the picture of the 'misguided and lost' Starfleet Captain, such as Benjamin Maxwell or Erik Pressman. The strangeness is just that, he's, well, THE Captain.

Anyhow, more specifically Episode 10... Overall this was a good episode, I think.


More specific thoughts in spoilers.

 Paradigm wrote:
Cracking return in episode 10, definitely one of my favourites so far.

Spoiler:

I'm surprised they're being so open about Tyler's Klingon-ness but I guess pretty much everyone had worked it out by now so the suspense wouldn't really be there. I imagine the story will now be less about the big reveal and more about him coming to terms with it, perhaps attempting to reject his past and accept himself as a human?

Mirror universe stuff is great. I do love a good alternate evil universe storyline where everyone gets to ham it up as evil versions of themselves. Hopefully this runs for a good few episodes and given the implication that the ships swapped places, I'd like to see how Mirror-Discovery gets on in our universe... Bring on more 'Captain Killy'!

Lorca's 'Scotty' impression as the engineer was great. Can't help but think the constant and specific use of the terms Rebel and Empire was a nod to that other popular Space Fight series as well... Come on, call someone 'Rebel scum' next week!

Killing the Doctor that suddenly was an interesting move... I applaud them for being that bold, but I wonder if they played that card a bit early/whether it might get lost among the Mirror Universe stuff. We'll see.

All fair points.

Enjoyable romp back into the series.
Captain Killy has some superb comedy potential - hope they play that up a bit.

I did not cop the Tyler thing WHAT SO EVER!
Im so newb.

Only fear is that they drag out the mirror universe thing. Hopefully they keep it short and snappy, have some fun with it and then move on.

I had a thought today about Discovery

So, before I saw the show (not having netflix), I was following along with the various reviews and commentary about it and, well, I really wasn't liking what I was hearing and reading. - It was like Star Trek was doing the Reimagined Battlestar Galactica. That sort of thing would essentially 'break' the point of Star Trek to me.


Thinking about it, particularly after last nights episode, Discovery isn't that. Discovery is Star Trek doing "Rogue One" - it's about Lost Souls seeking redemption for past failures. That's the story and hook. And the Trekkiness.

I think it's clear once you actually watch it that the classic Trek style of placing themes first and foremost is still there, they're just being approached from a very different perspective. Old Trek has those threats tackled by people who almost always come up with the right answer, Discovery takes the stance that sometimes it's ok not to reach that perfect resolution so long as you learn from it.

Old Trek teaches by example, Discovery teaches by placing more ordinary people in those situations and letting us (and them) learn from how they cope.

In all truth I hope they introduce a crew member named Stewart.

The preview made it look like they were doing the mirror stuff for awhile. There was talk of the longer we have to pretend to be evil the more we lose ourselves to it, and you can’t really do that in a single episode.

Also, I don’t think they said who the Emperor was. Any bets?

The doctor.

(unless he was seen in the mirror universe so can't be, I was painting very small tanks whilst watching as I find the whole thing a bit meh, so might have missed it )

Admiral Cornwell is unaccounted for in this universe, would be cool to see her as the Emperor given that she was the most outspoken peacemaker in Starfleet command in the regular universe...

Doctor Culber I think is going to be pretty much the same in this universe, though obviously that makes him very outspoken so he's possibly a bit of a nobody (or working with the rebels, but I think they'll save that for Tyler/Voq*) That way Discovery can offer him a ticket out of the Badguyverse by bringing him on board as a replacement doc when they leave.

*Possibly using the same process to infiltrate the Terran fleet as he is to get on board the Discovery...

 Compel wrote:
I had a thought today about Discovery

So, before I saw the show (not having netflix), I was following along with the various reviews and commentary about it and, well, I really wasn't liking what I was hearing and reading. - It was like Star Trek was doing the Reimagined Battlestar Galactica. That sort of thing would essentially 'break' the point of Star Trek to me.


Thinking about it, particularly after last nights episode, Discovery isn't that. Discovery is Star Trek doing "Rogue One" - it's about Lost Souls seeking redemption for past failures. That's the story and hook. And the Trekkiness.

I'd agree with this.

I think it's quite easy to lose sight of just how far Sci-Fi has come in the past decade or so.

Battlestar Galactica was quite the sea change. Yes it remains Sci-Fi at it's heart, but it was so much more than that. It didn't always quite succeed in getting it's themes across, but it's still overall well thought of.

And that means Star Trek has to up its game as well. Having Councillor Obvious use her empathic powers to tell the crew the big space beasty humping the nacelles is feeling amorous just ain't gonna cut it these days. It was a bit silly in it's day, but now it's just too much.

Sci-Fi has moved from the situation, to the individual and how they cope and grow with the challenges. And Disco is at least having a stab at that. I get why it's not quite landing for some, but I for one am impressed with it so far. Took two or three episodes to hit it's current stride but I consider it worth the investment in time.

So I hear there is a Mirror Universe episode/s - now interested in the show

Is it set the same time / before/ after Enterprise's fantastic two parte MU? I see mention of an Emperor so assume before as the rather fantastic Empress Hoshi takes over at the end of Enterprise's run?

It's certainly related to the story in Enterprise with a direct tie-in at one point. I think it's set afterwards, as they reference parts of the Enterprise one as having already happened (in the MU, not the main universe... It's a bit wibbly wobbly timey wimey).

 Mr Morden wrote:
So I hear there is a Mirror Universe episode/s - now interested in the show

Is it set the same time / before/ after Enterprise's fantastic two parte MU? I see mention of an Emperor so assume before as the rather fantastic Empress Hoshi takes over at the end of Enterprise's run?

I just hope they put a mustache on Michael.

 Paradigm wrote:
It's certainly related to the story in Enterprise with a direct tie-in at one point. I think it's set afterwards, as they reference parts of the Enterprise one as having already happened (in the MU, not the main universe... It's a bit wibbly wobbly timey wimey).

Yeah I heard the show is a bit odd.

had a wonder around the internet apparently the MU episodes are set episodes in the MU

The Emperor? Without a name?

She has to be Hoshi Sato (her evil twin anyway). Too much hint to Enterprise take on mirror universe

My bet for the Emperor is Georgiou.



Though my coworkers are really wanting it to be Shatner.


They're also really into this theory that Lorca is actually Mirror!Lorca.

I just don't buy that at all. There's just too much loss and regret from him. Considering the various breadcrumbs left about Tyler, to go full "24 ah hah! Lorca was the baddy all along" for Lorca, feels a bit disingenuous.

Though my coworkers are really wanting it to be Shatner.

I like your co workers

 Ratius wrote:

Though my coworkers are really wanting it to be Shatner.

I like your co workers

That would be awesome but ya I'm going to go with Georgiou.

I doubt it'll be Hoshi....waaaaaay too long for someone to hold the throne in such a cut throat culture.

Yeah, we're talking a hundred plus years difference, right?

Hoshi's heir (or heir's heir), on the other hand...

Dunno if it’s that much, but definitely long enough to have been snuffed.

 Compel wrote:
Yeah, we're talking a hundred plus years difference, right?

Hoshi's heir (or heir's heir), on the other hand...

IIRC one fo the novels (Glass Empires I think?) had her granddaughter being Empress - but this is all as someone said Wiberely wobbley timey wimey

Emperor Wesley is what we need

What did they say? Something about the Emperor being "savage", and that his identity was unknown to the rebels. Could be Saru?

That'd be a bit too weird for the 'Terran' Empire, surely.

Well that was all entirely expected. Still good though.

Good episode.

That was good.

I liked Saru's "yay Federation" speech.

I'm feeling these Terran Empire episodes are good to reinforce the Star Trek themes, something that I, and I'm guessing others, were a bit wary on early on.

Whoa, did not see that coming. Lorca's all dark all the time because:

Tyler being a Klingon double agent was really pretty predictable, but



Very interesting.


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 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Whoa, did not see that coming. Lorca's all dark all the time because:

Spoiler:

He's Dark Lorca!

Dang it! You beat me by one minute as I was typing my post!

Hmmm... Not sure I like this week's Big Twist...






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Incidentally, anyone know why this week's episode was only 37 mins?

Yeah, I saw the twist from reading the spoilers (My fault, I know), but there's this thing with Discovery so far where the 'facts' of an episode have sounded terribad but within the context, it's completely fair.

I agree with Paradigm.



Not a fan.

Still very much enjoying Disco, particularly the extended foray in the Mirror Universe.

Considering it’s birth pangs, I was genuinely expecting an absolute car crash.

Whilst I get the ‘not Trek’ comments some have, I think very few can say it’s not solid Sci-Fi fare all the same.

That's like saying that you order bangers and mash expecting bangers and mash but get broccoli cauliflower mix, then justify it as being okay because they are both food.


I was coming into it wanting bangers and mash. By Surak, that is what I expect.

Eh, I went into it expecting garbage, and was surprised with an actual good show. I don’t care about how “Star Trek” it actually ends up. Really the same could be said for Orville for me.

 Just Tony wrote:
That's like saying that you order bangers and mash expecting bangers and mash but get broccoli cauliflower mix, then justify it as being okay because they are both food.


I was coming into it wanting bangers and mash. By Surak, that is what I expect.

To abuse your analogy there....

I see it as more I ordered a specific type of banger with my bangers and mash - say, a Speldhurst sausage to use one local. Instead, I get a spicey Cumberland with my mash. Ultimately, it's the same thing I was craving - but a slightly different, though no less pleasing flavour.

I'm enjoying the different take on Trek - especially as the arcing stories have a most pleasing echo of DS9. We're again seeing a crew that can't simply leg it from the decisions they make from one episode to the next. It's taken the central Trek Trope, and is in the middle of exploring it in new and interesting ways. If it was just Star Trek - The Next Generation After Enterprise But The Same Generation as ToS, I think I'd have lost interest. TNG nailed that. Voyage and Enterprise only undermined it (personal taste, YMMV etc)

And this time, we're not following The Best of The Best on the Federation flagship. We're seeing a crew of screw ups and kooks on top secret hush-hush missions where their abilities outweigh their quirks. So for me, the feel is and should indeed always be somewhere between a regular crew and the shadowy Section 31. At the heart of their efforts they are Federation - but with perhaps a skewed perspective and morality.

It's caught a lot of heat for the rather radical Klingon re-design. Personally, I think that was indeed a mistake. Ever since Search for Spock, the Pasty-heads have had a distinctive look. Making them baldy slap-heads serves little purpose to my mind. I mean, I like the look, but just no need.

In summary, I can absolutely see why some may not be enjoying it as Star Trek. But I'm not amongst them.

I've seen a post somewhere (was it here?) that photoshopped hair onto the new Klingons, and they don't look all that different to the ones from TNG/DS9/VOY. The "radical redesign" is new uotfits and skinheads.

It's more that they don't look able to actually grow hair.

If it was a Skinhead Cult of some kind, I could dig it.


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Also, I'm still suspecting that Disco's home universe is not in fact the Prime Universe.

That would allow for so many of the differences - big and small - that we've been seeing so far.

Definitely an interesting twist last night!
I quite like it tbh.

 Paradigm wrote:
Hmmm... Not sure I like this week's Big Twist...

Spoiler:

There's nothing wrong with it narratively, it's not one of those twists for which there is absolutely no evidence and it's clearly done for shock value, and they were clever enough with setting Tyler/Voq up to distract us...

I'm just put out by the revelation that my favourite character in the show was never that character, and every great line/scene/piece of development he's had was just an act... Which I guess means the betrayal did exactly what it was supposed to, but without Lorca as captain certain other cast members are really going to have to step up to fill that void going forward, no one on the cast has half as much charisma and presence as Issacs.

What I'm now not sure about is whether I want them to then say 'Regular Not Evil Lorca' also survived the wreck of his ship and has been waiting for a chance to reclaim his usurped identity and come back to Starfleet... On one hand, it's very cheap, on the other, we get proper Lorca back and he can continue to be awesome...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incidentally, anyone know why this week's episode was only 37 mins?

I disagree. I think it makes everything make sense now. The Federation is all about idealism and then they have this one weird captain whose all pragmatic and like “context is for kings”. As we see now it wasn’t just this series trying to be edgy, he really is different than everyone else. Also, it explains why he went out of his way to free and re-enlist Burnham, Why he didn’t even care that his chief of security died, why he won’t treat his “eye injury”. If you go back there was tons of hints that shows this was always the plan and I think it makes the show better overall retroactively.


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Well that was a crazy episode.

These story arch finales feel like season finales.

Well that was pretty incredible... Though the final moments reveal was a tad predicable, the rest of the episode was so great and these final 3 weeks should be very interesting indeed.

Absolutely.

So, so glad this worked out (well, for me!)

Just watched the show.

I wasn't looking forward to it, to be honest, due to the whole "my favourite character is a surprise paedophile" thing last week.

I'm kind of glad I persisted. Nothing really excuses that, but still...

 Paradigm wrote:
Well that was pretty incredible... Though the final moments reveal was a tad predicable, the rest of the episode was so great and these final 3 weeks should be very interesting indeed.

Spoiler:

I perhaps feel killing Lorca was a bit too early, but then again one more Mirror episode would probably have been one too many so it had to be done.

Saru's captain speech was just epic, if they contrive a way to take away his command and give it to Burnham it'll be a colossal waste as he's stepped into that role fantastically. Likewise Tilly and Stamets inspiring one another to greatness, a fantastic 'woooo Starfleet' moment.

Bringing Georgiou back was a terrible decision in-universe, but that's par for the course for Burnham. For the show itself I think it'll be great. There's no way she can be redeemed, but I imagine it'll take a lot for Burnham to see that (probably the same with Tyler as well) which should set up some good stuff. How far can compassion go for someone that is irredeemably evil?

I wonder how they're going to handle this Klingon victory. Have the Discovery lead a straight up rebellion, or do some more timey-wimey stuff to avert the war in the first place or something like that...

Ya, this will be the first time we have a non-human Captain as "The Captain." I hope they give Saru a fair chance before somehow making Burnham the captain. Burnham isn't even enlisted. Pretty sure Cadet Tilly outranks her. Maybe Tilly will get that command sooner than she thinks! As she's just demonstrated with Georgeiou (I'm just going to go ahead and spell that different each time) Burnham is terrible at judgement calls and should never be captain.

What’s with the “Lorca is a paedo”? Internet hyperbole or did I miss something?

He was specifically called out by Georgieu as being a child groomer who took special interest in Mirror Michael as a child.

I'm still unsure about this show as Star Trek. It's good on it's own but I feel the game of thrones format isn't very Trek. It's hard to get attached to characters and see them grow and develop when so many of the good ones are dying left and right. Too much focus on the drama and action and twists and it feels like a drawn out sci fi action movie. Not sure why this even has to be Star Trek, it could have been anything...something new perhaps. I think The Orville is the modern Star Trek I wanted....this.. is something else.

 Compel wrote:
He was specifically called out by Georgieu as being a child groomer who took special interest in Mirror Michael as a child.

Ah, thanks. I missed that.

So I'm confused. Is that Tyler guy a human who had a Klingon brain stuck in him or a Klingon who got turned into a human?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
So I'm confused. Is that Tyler guy a human who had a Klingon brain stuck in him or a Klingon who got turned into a human?

He is a klingon who was transformed into a human, he was the albino one from the initial episodes of the show.

 Thargrim wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
So I'm confused. Is that Tyler guy a human who had a Klingon brain stuck in him or a Klingon who got turned into a human?

He is a klingon who was transformed into a human, he was the albino one from the initial episodes of the show.

Was Tyler ever a real Human? If not how can they just act like he's a normal human guy now? Isn't he still a Klingon sleeper agent who murdered the ship's Doctor?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
So I'm confused. Is that Tyler guy a human who had a Klingon brain stuck in him or a Klingon who got turned into a human?

He is a klingon who was transformed into a human, he was the albino one from the initial episodes of the show.

Was Tyler ever a real Human? If not how can they just act like he's a normal human guy now? Isn't he still a Klingon sleeper agent who murdered the ship's Doctor?

There may have been an original tyler, and voq had that personality implanted over his own. I haven't seen last nights episode yet but if they let him off the hook i'm going to be annoyed.

...prepare for annoyance.

More likely left as a plot hook to be explored later.

Just watched the finale. Some very good stuff there, though I can't help but feel it should've been a two-parter. Anyone who hasn't seen it yet, STAY AWAY from anything that might contain spoilers, there's some major stuff here which you'll want to avoid until you've seen it.

Speaking of which...


The series as a whole though has gone above my expectations in every way. This is what I wrote after the first trailer, and I am so glad to have been proven completely wrong.

 Paradigm wrote:
This seems like Backwards Trek to me; the visuals and effects are all there for once, but in that trailer at least there's no sense of substance beyond 'Klingons are bad' and 'First Officer who argues with the Captain'. I really want this to be good, but I'm not willing to trust it just yet.

Discovery is a very strong contender for my favourite show of the last year or so (only really rivalled by Stranger Things 2) and I look forward immensely to series 2. It's not been perfect throughout, but it's built an incredibly strong foundation for the future of the series, and proved that there's still a place for Star Trek in the 21st century, even if you have to approach things from a slightly different angle.

Just saw the episode.

Overall, thumbs up. And probably thumbs up for the series as a whole.

I still don't like the whole Lorca resolution thing, I think they could have done something better that. - And I still have real issues with the whole him being a paedophile thing...

But that's only 2 episodes out of 16. And I'm ok with them handling the rest.

Just watched it as well and I've got to agree that it could have been more fleshed out.

But hey, it all got overshadowed by the ending, anyway - hands up who saw that coming? Not me.

It was certainly an excellent final scene.
.

So, individually I've thoroughly enjoyed Disco.

I think the narrative risks they've taken ultimately paid off. Rather than needlessly re-invent Trek, they've just pushed things a little further - mixing the optimism of the Federation with the practicality we first glimpsed during DS9.

But, the main test is going to be how well it stands up to an old fashioned binge watch - which I'll be attempting this weekend. Replete with snacks of course.



What do I want from the next Season? More interaction with the remainder of the Bridge Crew. They've gone to lengths to avoid any of them looking like Ensign Anonymous, so please tell us of their tale and tribulations (and possibly tribbles. I'm always open to tribbles).

Other than that, continue with the arcing story - but a couple of stand alones wouldn't go amiss either.

Also. I seriously fancy Tilly. I think she is sweetly pretty.

Finally, confirmation that Klingons have two...

Or one suffered a particularly unpleasant/highly amusing injury?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Spoiler:

Not so much of a spoiler really, but just in case... I'm particularly impressed how well the show went without a ship's Captain and Central Team. It somehow felt a bit more fragmented than that - which I found a pleasant change of pace. Rather than the Captain shouldering all the burden, it was shared out amongst the leads.

What do I want from the next Season? More interaction with the remainder of the Bridge Crew. They've gone to lengths to avoid any of them looking like Ensign Anonymous, so please tell us of their tale and tribulations (and possibly tribbles. I'm always open to tribbles).

Other than that, continue with the arcing story - but a couple of stand alones wouldn't go amiss either.

The showrunners have said that with the war out of the way, the next series will probably have more standalone episodes and more classic Trek influences. Go to Planet, find a Thing, Adventures involving the Thing ensue. Not sure if it's a longer run or not, but if it is, they could certainly get away with more of that while keeping the arc up. They've also said they're going to continue to follow the Klingon characters going forward, rather than writing them out now the war's done.

Nice.

Still stunned this turned out well given it's well known developmental issues!

Really enjoyed the season but it really could have used at least one more episode to resolve the events of the finale. Felt rushed.

My minor issue is the lady at the end addresssing the council and tell them if they don’t put her in charge she presses this button and the world blows up. Like, how long does that hold up? Is her finger forever over the button? Why do they even believe her? At what point do they realize that’s federation tech and just go back to earth again to return the favor.

I dunno. But from what others have said, they'll be revisiting the Klingon characters as well in Season 2 (which is already ordered).

So here's hoping we see continued fallout from this. And as Burnham said, Klingon's respect strength. That it's a Federation weapon may be of little import, because it's still L'Rell holding the trigger.

She's showing strength in holding the biggest gun, but also in standing up to all the noble houses, and declaring herself leader in the name of unification.

There's a lot left to be explored there, and only time will tell.

I just finished it up and feel, yeah they fumbled the landing. Some take aways...

Glad that Ash Tyler's plot was more complex than 'LOL I'm the evils'. I think they painted themselves a bit into a corner by listing all the tests they'd done (off screen) which still didn't reveal anything (I laughed at the Manchurian test, hopefully it involved a lot of Frank Sinatra Songs). Sorry to see him go.

The death of doctor Culber was a shock, not only because he was a nice guy but also because I would have thought 23rd C medicine could patch up something as minor as a broken neck. Wasn't there a line about them being able to bring someone back within 30 minutes of death? But then we don't know how long Stamets dragged him around the air vents.

Doug Jones who plays Saru deserves special credit for doing a great job under all that makeup. Not since G'Kar in Babylon 5 can I remember such a good job.


Lorka will be back, he fell into the giant plot device thingy and is part of the spore network now. So either Mirror Lorka will be back or we'll learn that OG Lorka somehow survived.

I might care more about the 80,000 souls on Starbase 1 if we'd see some of them, or met them, or just heard them crying for mercy. Lots of ways to tug at our heartstrings and they used none of them. Just a space station with some graffiti.

The ending was rushed with way too many 'we can't do it! Yes we can!' moments. "We lost the war! No, we just lost 10% of our territory". "We don't have any spores! Meh, just terraform the planet in 5 minutes." "We don't have a map of Kronos (don't ask me to spell Klingon)! But we do know where every cave is!" "I'm fine with a scouting mission so we can bomb Kronos to the stone age, but setting off the volcanoes is a bridge too far!" And so on... Too many mini crisis that had to be resolved just leaves the plot with too many holes. Dial it back a bit. Leave out the bit about using ALL the spores, just say we have almost none and you save yourself the pointless terraforming plot (though it was pretty).

Worst stealth/scout team evah! "Watch her like a hawk"=Let her go get laid which you get high. So the sex slaves know where the secret temple is?

So how fast did wasshername convince everyone to make her the leader? Fast enough for the whole fleet to get the word and turn around? Without firing a shot?
After it was established that the houses were divided and that they would never let the humans go until they were all dead? What? Not since Babylon 5 such an anticlimax.

Yay medals!

Fearful about 'pick up the new captain on Vulcan'... better not be Spock.

Oh crap the Enterprise. Look I've been able to turn off my OCD fanboi-ness by just pretending this is set 50 years after Voyager. Don't rub my nose in your comtempt for what has gone before the established rules of the series. Just don't. Really. I don't need to see the Enterprise updated, I saw it updated in... 1980, 1988, 2000 and 2009. TELL A NEW @#$%ing story. This is the third reboot/flashback series in a row, it's the one thing that annoys me about an otherwise decent show, please don't call attention to that fact.

Will I be back?

I got Disco on Netflix because I'm overseas (Netflix has international rights, CBS has US rights) but when I'm back in the US this summer I don't think I'll pay to see this. Sorry I like it but... I'll probably catch up in 2019 when I go overseas again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and latest on season 2:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/star-trek-discovery-boss-gets-candid-big-delays-season-2-1042520

Given the intensive production schedule for Discovery, is this a show that will air every year or is it going to be less frequent? The second half of this season comes out in January. If you were to get a quick season two order, when could you presumably have the first episode of season two ready to air?

There have been preliminary conversations about when and how [a second season could air] and we've been very consistent in our message, which is that rather than announce a date and have to push again, let's take into consideration everything we've learned from this season. Now we know what we can do and where the sand traps are, so let's give ourselves ample time to announce a date that makes sense to everybody — both the needs of production and CBS. Breaking story is, in some ways, the easier and faster thing; it's the ability to execute on it that's much harder. We want to take the right amount of time and don't want to rush.

So ideally, season two could bow in 2019?

Ideally, on the early side of 2019.

[quote=The ending was rushed with way too many 'we can't do it! Yes we can!' moments. "We lost the war! No, we just lost 10% of our territory". "We don't have any spores! Meh, just terraform the planet in 5 minutes." "We don't have a map of Kronos (don't ask me to spell Klingon)! But we do know where every cave is!" "I'm fine with a scouting mission so we can bomb Kronos to the stone age, but setting off the volcanoes is a bridge too far!" And so on... Too many mini crisis that had to be resolved just leaves the plot with too many holes. Dial it back a bit. Leave out the bit about using ALL the spores, just say we have almost none and you save yourself the pointless terraforming plot (though it was pretty).

Worst stealth/scout team evah! "Watch her like a hawk"=Let her go get laid which you get high. So the sex slaves know where the secret temple is?

Of course once the whole show is out I could sign up for a month (do they have a free trial?) and binge watch.

But if it's not starting till 2019 I can wait till I'm back overseas.

Short answer, i ain't paying anything additional to watch this.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Instead, they were intent on targeting military installations only. And as the only surface scans they had were black market and out of date, hence the scanning scheme they came up with. The plan was never wholesale genocide.

The plan was pretty much always wholesale genocide (except for a very brief moment before someone talked to Georgieu), the only difference was, the only people who needed to know that were Starfleet Command, Sarek and Georgieu.

The whole bombing installation thing? Purely a cover.

 Compel wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Instead, they were intent on targeting military installations only. And as the only surface scans they had were black market and out of date, hence the scanning scheme they came up with. The plan was never wholesale genocide.

The plan was pretty much always wholesale genocide (except for a very brief moment before someone talked to Georgieu), the only difference was, the only people who needed to know that were Starfleet Command, Sarek and Georgieu.

The whole bombing installation thing? Purely a cover.

But one that Burnham believed.

I think that 'I support surgical strikes but nukes are too much for me!' is not enough of a moral message to wrap the whole season around. Especially since Burnham found a way (however pat and unrealisitic) to resolve things without any fighting. Had the wrapped the the message around 'no one has to die today because of my clever cleverness' that would have been a lot more powerful for me and a very Star Trek type message.

Like I said, fumbled the landing, overall a good show but could have been better.

I got round to finishing the show. It had excellent special effects for TV and some strong stylistic designs. All the side characters got fleshed out and grew on me.

I really disliked Michael Burnham. When she isn't using logic to make terrible decisions she's moping because she is apparently suddenly sensing emotions. The actor did the best with what she was given but overall really fell flat. She did shine in the Surak flashback episode. Ditto for Clem Fandango. Worked what he was given which just wasn't a lot, and his whole character was just meh.

Sadly one speech at the end does not Star Trek make. And creating a war arc where people are pushed to their limits only works if we establish their baseline. Either they needed 3 or 4 episodes before the Battle of the Binary Stars to show us the fun dynamics of the Shenzhou before it's ripped away, or start at episode 3 in the show. Show us how her actions have created this dark and moody Starfleet, chuck in a few injuries or battered ships. Get the desperation going.

The 4 episodes in the middle about the mirror universe were fun. I wish they'd spent more time there.

The big Enterprise reveal at the end feels cheap and pointless. Whilst Star Trek shows have had crossovers it always weaved in a narrative. It never cold finished on a surprise, X from tge past is here.

I hope they're done with the Klingon Arc and just move on to something new.

Passable space drama with lasers but not compelling for me. I'm watching it as a fan of the Star Trek setting, but the show hasn't gripped me on its own merits.

See, I appreciated the ‘we are Starfleet’ speech at the end.

On one hand, it was a kind of ‘yes, we know this wasn’t necessarily what Trekkies were expecting’ thing. Part apology, part statement of intent. Definitely not intended as an ‘SO UP YOURS, NERDS. NEEEEEERRRRRRRRRDS’.

On the other? Well we’ve just seen Starfleet and the Federation face it’s first full on War. And it emerged with its moral compass battered, but importantly, largely unchanged. I found that tied into the Georgiou Mirror stuff quite nicely.

It worked for me, but I can see why not for others.

Also, lovely to see someone else stuck on calling him Clem Fandango.

For those wondering what that’s about? Spoilered, as it’s a wee bit sweary. Couldn’t find any without. You have been warned.

I'm not really a serious Star Trek fan. I've seen every episode, but evidently not as heavily into the lore as those who were burning this series at the stake when it came out. That put me off watching it, but now that its finish I gave it a whirl.

Well its much better than how they put it across (...though that's not unexpected). Overall I liked the acting and where it going. Saru began to grind me a bit with how he choose to go about things, as was did the Federation's tenets seem to go out the window for him and other characters (outside the influence of the Captain) a fair bit. However, I *much* prefer this portrayal of Star Trek.

What gets me in particular is how Trek fans have been asking for a series were the Federation's ways are tested, and lost - usually asking for a war story (where by the end the "lets all be friends" types win out). ...Isn't this it?

Meh, gimme more Jason Isaacs. ...Or just more grimness in this setting. Gene Roddenberry can turn in his grave for all I care about his intentions for the series ("no crewman can ever be in conflict with each other").



Oh, and I liked The Orville as well, just in case any Trek fans who disagree with my points want to point and go "this is the enemy" some more. Though yes, ideally with its second series they'll be a bit more focused with the humour instead of smattering it in with plots that wouldn't be out of place in a Star Trek episode - if a bit darker. ...Though I guess in retrospect, having watched that first, there's not enough exposed organs for The Orville to be as dark as Trek is now. And here's me thinking the new Star Trek would be a pile of toss after watching those horrible Abrams movies (Lens flares!!!).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well we’ve just seen Starfleet and the Federation face it’s first full on War.

Point of information!

Canonically the Federation already fought a war against the Romulans!

However it was fought in deep space with the only communications over voice so they never learned what the Romulans look like.

[/Nerd]

PS Hey! Why didn't the Prime Directive apply to the Mirror Universe? Shouldn't they have just kept their heads down and tried to find a way home rather than depose the government and blow up the Cool Ship? I guess Lorca threw it out early and no one ever picked it up as a guiding light.

Prime Directive only applies to primative/pre-warp civilizations, doesn’t it?

There's also the Temporal Prime Directive (pretty much...just...just don't, yeah? And if you do, don't much anything up)

But I can't think of any mention of a Parallel Reality type Prime Directive? Doesn't mean there isn't one. And if there is, this is the first confirmed instance, pre-dating TOS' trip there?

AduroT wrote:Prime Directive only applies to primative/pre-warp civilizations, doesn’t it?

Oh yeah good point

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:There's also the Temporal Prime Directive (pretty much...just...just don't, yeah? And if you do, don't much anything up)

But I can't think of any mention of a Parallel Reality type Prime Directive? Doesn't mean there isn't one. And if there is, this is the first confirmed instance, pre-dating TOS' trip there?

Crew of the Defiant in ST Enterprise. Course they all died...

Only technically....at the time of Disco the Defiant hadn't actually gone back in time to the parallel

Shame no one the Discovery thought to warn the crew of the Defiant... I guess they were busy and stuff.

Ah. Now that would definitely be The Temporal Prime Directive - which Kirk and Spock were aware of.

It would also mean they couldn't have taken the actions they had, threatening their ret

Picked up Netflix and binge watched the series

Hugely impressed - love the show, the characters are well crafted, the plots interesting and coherent.

A most impressive first season.

And it had the glorious Mirror Universe.

(If the Klingons had been normal looking it would be near perfect, -they act like them, talk like them)

Overall I’ve enjoyed the series. Star Trek has always been of uneven quality and this show is better more often than not. The resolution to the war story doesn’t really make sense though. The Klingon lady should have at least had to blow up one continent or something to make her point. I don’t see any reason anyone would take her seriously about this bizarre doomsday weapon. Like can’t anyone just put some nukes in orbit and threaten the planet? Also it can’t take them that long to work up some kind of counter to it.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Overall I’ve enjoyed the series. Star Trek has always been of uneven quality and this show is better more often than not. The resolution to the war story doesn’t really make sense though. The Klingon lady should have at least had to blow up one continent or something to make her point. I don’t see any reason anyone would take her seriously about this bizarre doomsday weapon. Like can’t anyone just put some nukes in orbit and threaten the planet? Also it can’t take them that long to work up some kind of counter to it.

They can't attack from orbit due to the klingon fixed defences - its why the ship had to

I think the

Of course the war could always resume

I wonder how long it would take me to convince the UN that my TV remote is connected to a planet-killer bomb?

Think they'll make me King of Earth?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I wonder how long it would take me to convince the UN that my TV remote is connected to a planet-killer bomb?

Think they'll make me King of Earth?

I’ll vouch for you.

Here's an interesting bit of news, the design of the NCC-1701 (no bloody A, B, C or D!) had to be altered for legal reasons.

Which again raises the question, why the FETH did you do another prequel!

https://io9.gizmodo.com/star-trek-discoverys-version-of-the-enterprise-had-to-1825276401?utm_campaign=socialflow_io9_facebook&utm_source=io9_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Star Trek: Discovery's Version of the Enterprise Had to Be Modified for Legal Reasons

Julie Muncy
Yesterday 2:15pmFiled to: STAR TREK: DISCOVERY
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The Enterprise as it’s featured in Discovery
Image: CBS
The finale of Star Trek: Discovery gave us a short glimpse at the most legendary ship in the entire Starfleet: the Enterprise, ten years before the original Star Trek television show. Befitting the different visual style of Discovery, the ship looks a little different than we remembered, but that apparently wasn’t just for creative reasons.

(Trek Movie has a great comparison of the two designs.)

Taking to Facebook to discuss the release of a calendar featuring an early design of the Discovery version, show designer John Eaves explained a bit about the process.

“Back in April of 2017 the task of the Enterprise making an appearance came to be and work was to start right away,” Eaves explained (with some of the grammar modified for readability). “The task started with the guideline that the Enterprise for Discovery had to be 25% different, otherwise production would have most likely been able to use the original design from the 60's. But that couldn’t happen so we took Jefferies’ original concepts and with great care tried to be as faithful as possible. We had the advantage of a ten-year gap in Trek history to retro the ship a bit with elements that could be removed and replaced somewhere in the time frame of Discovery and the Original series.”

That guideline, apparently, came from legal, as Eaves went on to explain in a comment below the main post.

“After Enterprise, properties of Star Trek ownership changed hands and was divided,, so what was able to cross TV shows up to that point changed and a lot of the crossover was no longer allowed,” he said. “That is why when JJ [Abrams]’s movie came along everything had to be different. The alternate universe concept was what really made that movie happen in a way as to not cross the new boundaries and give Trek a new footing to continue.”

So that explains it. Creativity is shaped by constraints, after all. And I for one think the new old version of the Enterprise looks awfully sharp, all things considered.

 Mr Morden wrote:

(If the Klingons had been normal looking it would be near perfect, -they act like them, talk like them)

I got a some amount of amusement out of the fact that the character that looks the most like a Kilingon is the Kilingon 'disguised' as a human...

The klingons changed in each movie they were in, too.

There was outrage from "fans" when TMP made them into ridgeheads with British teeth.

Then again in ST3,5 & 6 and again in the kelvin 1&2 (they're in the deleted scenes for JJ's ST, under the helmets, they look much like they did in Into darkness. It's just that they didn't have all the prosthetics ready for filming for the first one.

The only thing constant about the way klingons look in star trek is how much they change in each iteration.

I think that honestly the reason Klingons DIDN'T look like that from the get go is because of budget. I also like that Romulans are mildly different looking than Vulcans now.

The Klingon redesign for TMP did make them a little more interesting. The Romulan eyebrow ridge addition never made a much sense, given that the fact that they were identical to Vulcan's was a big part of their original reveal.

Divergent evolution. How long had the Romulans and Vulcans been separate?

A few thousand years, IIRC.

Not enough for headlumps to form, unless there was some inbreeding.

Or genetic modification. It's a fairly established technology in the Trek universe.

True, and maybe an attempt to distance themselves a little further from the Vulcans.

A side affect of some mental enhancement, traces of some disease that ravaged the Romulan Empire, mutation caused by their new homeworld, interbreeding with the Reemulans (who we saw all of once)...

Lots of ways to handwave make up changes in Star Trek, many of which have been used in the show.

There certainly are, and there have been various attempts at it over the years. I just don't think it was a necessary change, and the Romulans would have been more interesting (and less silly-looking) without it.

I seem to recall even Spock was surprised Romulans look like Vulcans so I think it was more than just a few thousand years especially since the Vulcans are a long lived and not prolific species.

And maybe the intent was a similar but not identical thing. If memory serves, there were several aliens that Roddenberry would have done differently with a higher budget.

What is this? No Disco Season 2 posts?

It's on Netflix outside the US (or y'know if you point your VPN towards London) and enjoying it. Much more Star Treky.

There's an annoying Spock subplot but I long ago decided the show was in an alternate reality so that's all fine.

Loving May the Guyanese spore creature. Lovely accent.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/760817.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It just morphed into a general thread.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
What is this? No Disco Season 2 posts?

It's on Netflix outside the US (or y'know if you point your VPN towards London) and enjoying it. Much more Star Treky.

There's an annoying Spock subplot but I long ago decided the show was in an alternate reality so that's all fine.

Loving May the Guyanese spore creature. Lovely accent.

I gave up on Star Trek: Michael Burnham.