Lennac wrote:
Just started collecting... picked Chaos Space Marines (lore and aesthetics).

Then I look at the results of this poll.

If you want results on the table there is time yet to paint them red, black and gold and run Demonkin.

Seriously though. Unless you're in a crazy competitive meta, you should be alright. Mines sorta competitive and I can run them just fine. I definitely understand the CSM players frustration, but the codex is more playable than bugs and Orks and arguably BA. Yea, there will be a learning curve, but it won't be as bad as the very loud dakka player base would have you believe

 happygolucky wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

 Zaku212 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Lennac wrote:
Just started collecting... picked Chaos Space Marines (lore and aesthetics).

Then I look at the results of this poll.

Welcome to the club. :(

TFW you've collected chaos for the last 18 or so years so you got to watch the backslide of an army you've worked on for years...

It's not all Doom and Gloom though.. You can use IA: 13 supplied by FW which gives CSM a major facelift (compared with its current codex), but you need to make sure your area is comfortable with FW first

I wouldnt call it a major face lift, its a rather small one. It just gives you some good stuff that ultimately gets dragged down by the garbage.

Must be a difference in areas, as I've found CSM to really push up the ladder with FW in my area .

I've had a read of this since and while it's all good stuff, It's kinda an attempt in rolling a turd in glitter. I'd honestly prefer a functional main codex where I'm not feeling like I'm just writing a terrible and overpriced version of a vanilla marines list.

Like it's kinda upsetting that I've spent a great deal of time on them only to feel kind of stupid for ever thinking they'd be able to compete without being propped up with help from outside the codex. Like I remember it being great to finally get the plastic Zerkers when they were first out. I moved from collecting and painting to wanting to play with the 3rd ed 2nd codex(3.5 Ed I guess). It was a lot of fun to play with builds and everything seemed a bit more viable(may have been me being naive at the time though). But most importantly for me, the seemingly "good" choices were fun and let me play as I wanted to and still do ok.

I never consciously shelved the army, but once the following codex dropped the whole thing kinda lost any and all soul for me and I kinda drifted off.

Sorry for rambling but this thread has kinda touched a nerve I didn't know was there

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Competitive CSM with FW can barely compete with casual Top 4 lists.

Then its a good thing I don't have a competitive meta I seem to do fine with Sicaran (Gotta love popping jetbikes and skimmers with no jink), (a few Dreadclaws sometimes) and a few Contemptors and a Decimator

Zaku212 wrote: *Snip*

That's ok, I think everyone wants a favorable codex where they get to play their codex and army, I still want my Night Lords to play like.. well Night Lords. I never played 3.5 (got started at the end of 4th ed.) but at the end of the day we all can wish for something to happen or make something happen and since GW isn't listening (Although they have just started I will give them credit for that) I would advise making use of what you can get. I have with FW and I'm never looking back. Although I'm not getting NL rules soon I can get close to their playstyle with Dreadclaw Alpha-Strike. I would advise looking into IA: 13 as you could get some of that flavour back for your WE, just look at Spartan tank, I reckon that would be a worthwhile investment to get your 'Zerks or Terminators into combat.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Competitive CSM with FW can barely compete with casual Top 4 lists.

They can't. My Eldar have a field day against competitive CSM. I even managed to win against them using Grey Knights which I find seriously underpowered at the moment.

So...

In light of TH not sucking, should we delete this thread and start anew?

 JimOnMars wrote:
So...

In light of TH not sucking, should we delete this thread and start anew?

Oh definitely. Here's to the competition just between Dark Eldar and Blood Angels!

DE are worse with the FAQs. We don't need to discuss it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
So...

In light of TH not sucking, should we delete this thread and start anew?

Oh definitely. Here's to the competition just between Dark Eldar and Blood Angels!

We should wait for TH part II to come out, since it's going to give BA more Formations, relics & Decurions plus new wargear and updated Devs and Assault Marines.

Then it'll be a competition between BA and CSMs for second worse (but not really because Grav Cannons + the Formations will almost for sure trump anything CSMs have gotten).

 JimOnMars wrote:
So...

In light of TH not sucking, should we delete this thread and start anew?

Yeep.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
So...

In light of TH not sucking, should we delete this thread and start anew?

Oh definitely. Here's to the competition just between Dark Eldar and Blood Angels!

We should wait for TH part II to come out, since it's going to give BA more Formations, relics & Decurions plus new wargear and updated Devs and Assault Marines.

Then it'll be a competition between BA and CSMs for second worse (but not really because Grav Cannons + the Formations will almost for sure trump anything CSMs have gotten).

Blood Angels don't have Grav Cannons.

So with the new TH being released, Orks are #1 for worst army?

SemperMortis wrote:
So with the new TH being released, Orks are #1 for worst army?

It is Dark Eldar or Blood Angels right now for sure.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
So with the new TH being released, Orks are #1 for worst army?

It is Dark Eldar or Blood Angels right now for sure.

Blood Angels 6% [ 96 ]
Dark Eldar 8% [ 138 ]
Orks 18% [ 306 ]

The numbers would beg to differ from that opinion.

Blood Angels aren't as good as SMs. That is a fact; but they still benefit from a lot of USRs and other things that make them a lot better then Orks. DE, well they have a tough learning curve but not nearly as bad as Orks. It would be nice if my army could spam S8 AP2 lances all over the place Poison is not to be laughed at either.

ORKS WIN !!!! at being the worst.....

Seriously, I would pay good money for the Ork Book with formations that grant:

Grot squads come back on a 4+, with outflank

Storm Boyz can assault on the turn they DS

Lootaz Shoot Twice per turn

I wish Krieg had good formations too.

At least the Scions can bring back a single squad every turns if its wiped out.

Somehow I wasn't expecting DE to get fewer votes than CSM.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Somehow I wasn't expecting DE to get fewer votes than CSM.

I imagine there are fewer DE players

DE is now the weakest faction by far. Poor poor DE. Even HC can't match the formations CSM just got. IG are second worst now.

 Gamgee wrote:
DE is now the weakest faction by far. Poor poor DE. Even HC can't match the formations CSM just got. IG are second worst now.

something something
Dark Eldar 8% [ 138 ] + Astra Militarum 7% [ 111 ] = Less votes then Orks got.

Orks 18% [ 306 ]

Okay we get it, Martel 2.0

 Bobthehero wrote:
Okay we get it, Martel 2.0

I apologize bob, I have this tendency to use facts and statistics whenever possible. I apologize for pointing out someone making a statement that flew in the face of this poll.

 Gamgee wrote:
DE is now the weakest faction by far. Poor poor DE. Even HC can't match the formations CSM just got. IG are second worst now.

Except venom span evaporates orks like water, along with splinter rack raiders. When either side gets a charge off, Dark Eldar always goes first. Always. Have you ever tried to fight close combat at initiative 2? Believe me, it isn't fun. Yes, lack of assault grenades hurts you if the orks hunker down in a bush, but that leaves the rest of the table for you. And those orks you can just shoot anyway.

Don't even get me started on 48" objective secured movement.

Switch armies next time you play orks and see if you like basically the same army, but much, much slower, with worse weapons, worse leadership and worse ballistic skill. Yes, we get T4...but poison allows your base troops to wound on 4+ anyway, so it doesn't help us much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In addition, Coven > Ghaz.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Okay we get it, Martel 2.0

I apologize bob, I have this tendency to use facts and statistics whenever possible. I apologize for pointing out someone making a statement that flew in the face of this poll.

You've been hamering the point more like.

 Bobthehero wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Okay we get it, Martel 2.0

I apologize bob, I have this tendency to use facts and statistics whenever possible. I apologize for pointing out someone making a statement that flew in the face of this poll.

You've been hamering the point more like.

So because I defend my point with statistics im "Hamering the point home". I guess I should just say something one time and ignore everything else forever because otherwise I will be "hamering the point home"

I am sorry you feel the need to attack me for pointing out the massive deficiencies in the army I chose to play but it doesn't really add much to this discussion, can we advance past this and continue?

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
DE is now the weakest faction by far. Poor poor DE. Even HC can't match the formations CSM just got. IG are second worst now.

Except venom span evaporates orks like water, along with splinter rack raiders. When either side gets a charge off, Dark Eldar always goes first. Always. Have you ever tried to fight close combat at initiative 2? Believe me, it isn't fun. Yes, lack of assault grenades hurts you if the orks hunker down in a bush, but that leaves the rest of the table for you. And those orks you can just shoot anyway.

Don't even get me started on 48" objective secured movement.

Switch armies next time you play orks and see if you like basically the same army, but much, much slower, with worse weapons, worse leadership and worse ballistic skill. Yes, we get T4...but poison allows your base troops to wound on 4+ anyway, so it doesn't help us much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In addition, Coven > Ghaz.

Orks can get cheap stompa upgrade. Their big thing from FW.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
So...

In light of TH not sucking, should we delete this thread and start anew?

Oh definitely. Here's to the competition just between Dark Eldar and Blood Angels!

We should wait for TH part II to come out, since it's going to give BA more Formations, relics & Decurions plus new wargear and updated Devs and Assault Marines.

Then it'll be a competition between BA and CSMs for second worse (but not really because Grav Cannons + the Formations will almost for sure trump anything CSMs have gotten).

Blood Angels don't have Grav Cannons.

They almost for sure will once TH II comes out, since as I said it updates the wargear list and Devastor Squad entry.
Which is what my post was about... TH II BA.

 Gamgee wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
DE is now the weakest faction by far. Poor poor DE. Even HC can't match the formations CSM just got. IG are second worst now.

Except venom span evaporates orks like water, along with splinter rack raiders. When either side gets a charge off, Dark Eldar always goes first. Always. Have you ever tried to fight close combat at initiative 2? Believe me, it isn't fun. Yes, lack of assault grenades hurts you if the orks hunker down in a bush, but that leaves the rest of the table for you. And those orks you can just shoot anyway.

Don't even get me started on 48" objective secured movement.

Switch armies next time you play orks and see if you like basically the same army, but much, much slower, with worse weapons, worse leadership and worse ballistic skill. Yes, we get T4...but poison allows your base troops to wound on 4+ anyway, so it doesn't help us much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In addition, Coven > Ghaz.

Orks can get cheap stompa upgrade. Their big thing from FW.

It's pretty sad when your armies "big thing" is a misprint. Forgeworld has confirmed that the value is not correct. Anyone who would try to take this in a game (at the incorrect point value) is a serious dick, and ITC only allowed it as a joke.

You wanted something I gave it to you. Don't get pissed off at me for something the ITC allows and is happy orks have. They didn't do it as a joke and I also voted on that poll and knew orks needed the boost.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
So...

In light of TH not sucking, should we delete this thread and start anew?

Oh definitely. Here's to the competition just between Dark Eldar and Blood Angels!

We should wait for TH part II to come out, since it's going to give BA more Formations, relics & Decurions plus new wargear and updated Devs and Assault Marines.

Then it'll be a competition between BA and CSMs for second worse (but not really because Grav Cannons + the Formations will almost for sure trump anything CSMs have gotten).

Blood Angels don't have Grav Cannons.

They almost for sure will once TH II comes out, since as I said it updates the wargear list and Devastor Squad entry.
Which is what my post was about... TH II BA.

And they'll still be worse off than the vanilla variant of they do receive it. Just having the item doesn't mean they have an effective way to use it.

I never said they'd be better than Vanilla Marines, so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up. I'm comparing them to CSMs, an army without them that is made of some of the best targets: expensive MEQ/TEQ.

Has anyone considered that there may just be more active Ork players than DE or IG ones?

Tbh I think the ork player thinks, because DE do extremely well again Orks, it means they're generally better.

I honestly don't get why DE are considered "Weak"..

You get Lance and Haywire, some of the best Armour Penetration weapons in 7th ed. Outside of D.

Poison is your thing..

You get quick transports getting you to where you need to be..

Your CC and shooting isn't too shabby.

The only thing I see is a lack of MEQ Deathstar and access to D within their own codex..

Is this just a case of Lance requiring to pen rather than strip HP like the same issues with a Lascannon? I'm just not seeing it...

 happygolucky wrote:
I honestly don't get why DE are considered "Weak"..

You get Lance and Haywire, some of the best Armour Penetration weapons in 7th ed. Outside of D.

Poison is your thing..

You get quick transports getting you to where you need to be..

Your CC and shooting isn't too shabby.

The only thing I see is a lack of MEQ Deathstar and access to D within their own codex..

Is this just a case of Lance requiring to pen rather than strip HP like the same issues with a Lascannon? I'm just not seeing it...

DE are a casualty of the introduction of hull points (and the resulting change to anti-tank tactics) and the brokenness of Wave Serpents in 6th (and the resulting improvement in anti-skimmer tactics). Every time I've played against them I've popped every transport on the board by turn two and have had all the time in the world to mop up the footslogging T3/5+ troops with no anti-vehicle weaponry.

They're expensive, fragile, difficult to get a handle on, hard-countered by most even semi-competitive builds, and sitting on a 5e-vintage model range and set of statlines in a game that's had a long time to go more out-of-control around them. They're a legacy of a more balanced time sitting in the middle of a failing mess of power creep.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
I honestly don't get why DE are considered "Weak"..

You get Lance and Haywire, some of the best Armour Penetration weapons in 7th ed. Outside of D.

Poison is your thing..

You get quick transports getting you to where you need to be..

Your CC and shooting isn't too shabby.

The only thing I see is a lack of MEQ Deathstar and access to D within their own codex..

Is this just a case of Lance requiring to pen rather than strip HP like the same issues with a Lascannon? I'm just not seeing it...

DE are a casualty of the introduction of hull points (and the resulting change to anti-tank tactics) and the brokenness of Wave Serpents in 6th (and the resulting improvement in anti-skimmer tactics). Every time I've played against them I've popped every transport on the board by turn two and have had all the time in the world to mop up the footslogging T3/5+ troops with no anti-vehicle weaponry.

They're expensive, fragile, difficult to get a handle on, hard-countered by most even semi-competitive builds, and sitting on a 5e-vintage model range and set of statlines in a game that's had a long time to go more out-of-control around them. They're a legacy of a more balanced time sitting in the middle of a failing mess of power creep.

Their 7th edition codex nerfed a few things for them but for the most part they didn't really improve while everyone else got more powerful. The Coven's supplement helped them a lot more but that's limited to mostly a small range of melee focused units while their shooting continues to stagnate and losing that "glass cannon" edge they had. Now they are just glass while armies like Eldar and Tau can put out more dakka while being more durable and points efficient.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
I honestly don't get why DE are considered "Weak"..

You get Lance and Haywire, some of the best Armour Penetration weapons in 7th ed. Outside of D.

Poison is your thing..

You get quick transports getting you to where you need to be..

Your CC and shooting isn't too shabby.

The only thing I see is a lack of MEQ Deathstar and access to D within their own codex..

Is this just a case of Lance requiring to pen rather than strip HP like the same issues with a Lascannon? I'm just not seeing it...

DE are a casualty of the introduction of hull points (and the resulting change to anti-tank tactics) and the brokenness of Wave Serpents in 6th (and the resulting improvement in anti-skimmer tactics). Every time I've played against them I've popped every transport on the board by turn two and have had all the time in the world to mop up the footslogging T3/5+ troops with no anti-vehicle weaponry.

They're expensive, fragile, difficult to get a handle on, hard-countered by most even semi-competitive builds, and sitting on a 5e-vintage model range and set of statlines in a game that's had a long time to go more out-of-control around them. They're a legacy of a more balanced time sitting in the middle of a failing mess of power creep.

What army do you play? For me it is incredibly hard to kill DE Transports with ranged weapons. The best ranged anti-tank weapons orks have are Lootas, 10 lootas = 140pts firing on average 2 shots each = 20 shots, 7 hits and against a DE transport that is about 1 glances and 3 Pens. Plenty to kill it.

Of course that same DE Transport gets his Jink saves so 1 glance and 1 pen on average, unless the DE player has a brain and equipped it with nightshield to give it a 3+ Jink, in which case your really only going to lose about 1 HP if that.

So, a 150pt DE Squad with a transport is able to shrug off an entire round of Ork shooting with little to no effect. And like I said that is one of our best Anti-tank units.

So I have to ask what army your playing where you can destroy all enemy transports that have a 3+ jink save in 2 turns or less.

Side note: If your answer is "I Play tau" well then no kidding, your army is designed to laugh at cover saves and to shoot everyone off the table by the end of turn 2.

Friend, no one here is using orks, csm or ba as a standard.

Martel732 wrote:
Friend, no one here is using orks, csm or ba as a standard.

LOL I know Martel, but I am saying if your comparing even SMs against DE transports to that of Tau its still a very one sided affair. Every Tau list has some way of ignoring cover/jink saves. SMs have to buy special units/Forgeworld to get that ability. So again, the aforementioned posters comments about how easy it is to feth up DE needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

IF its a Tau player, well then no kidding, even fluffy Tau lists blow the bottom tier armies out of the water
If its a CSM or hell even an Eldar/SM list, how are you easily killing all those transports.

Another fact missing is the # of points in those games and how many vehicles are taken. IF its a 750point game and the person took 1 vehicle, well then duh it was easy.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
Tbh I think the ork player thinks, because DE do extremely well again Orks, it means they're generally better.

Yep. Usually the winner is better.

SemperMortis wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
I honestly don't get why DE are considered "Weak"..

You get Lance and Haywire, some of the best Armour Penetration weapons in 7th ed. Outside of D.

Poison is your thing..

You get quick transports getting you to where you need to be..

Your CC and shooting isn't too shabby.

The only thing I see is a lack of MEQ Deathstar and access to D within their own codex..

Is this just a case of Lance requiring to pen rather than strip HP like the same issues with a Lascannon? I'm just not seeing it...

DE are a casualty of the introduction of hull points (and the resulting change to anti-tank tactics) and the brokenness of Wave Serpents in 6th (and the resulting improvement in anti-skimmer tactics). Every time I've played against them I've popped every transport on the board by turn two and have had all the time in the world to mop up the footslogging T3/5+ troops with no anti-vehicle weaponry.

They're expensive, fragile, difficult to get a handle on, hard-countered by most even semi-competitive builds, and sitting on a 5e-vintage model range and set of statlines in a game that's had a long time to go more out-of-control around them. They're a legacy of a more balanced time sitting in the middle of a failing mess of power creep.

What army do you play? For me it is incredibly hard to kill DE Transports with ranged weapons. The best ranged anti-tank weapons orks have are Lootas, 10 lootas = 140pts firing on average 2 shots each = 20 shots, 7 hits and against a DE transport that is about 1 glances and 3 Pens. Plenty to kill it.

Of course that same DE Transport gets his Jink saves so 1 glance and 1 pen on average, unless the DE player has a brain and equipped it with nightshield to give it a 3+ Jink, in which case your really only going to lose about 1 HP if that.

So, a 150pt DE Squad with a transport is able to shrug off an entire round of Ork shooting with little to no effect. And like I said that is one of our best Anti-tank units.

So I have to ask what army your playing where you can destroy all enemy transports that have a 3+ jink save in 2 turns or less.

Side note: If your answer is "I Play tau" well then no kidding, your army is designed to laugh at cover saves and to shoot everyone off the table by the end of turn 2.

Just to throw antidotal evidence out there but I tabled a Dark Eldar player on turn 2 with Ork shooting

Forcing de to jink now turns off their offense

I can't believe someone has trouble popping AV10.

Dark Eldar are definitely bottom tier for sure.

Martel732 wrote:
Forcing de to jink now turns off their offense

True, but to force those Lootas to take a moral check they only have to kill three of them, and with LD7 and no Character (unless you bought a mek) your going to have a bad time.

AV 10 is easy to pop, AV10 with a 3+ Jink save is a lot harder, especially when you can spam 6-8 of them in a 1,500pt game.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
Tbh I think the ork player thinks, because DE do extremely well again Orks, it means they're generally better.

Yep. Usually the winner is better.

It's also like how my IG can generally beat the most common TAU builds, but struggle against Orks.... does that now mean Ork are better than tau?

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
Tbh I think the ork player thinks, because DE do extremely well again Orks, it means they're generally better.

Yep. Usually the winner is better.

It's also like how my IG can generally beat the most common TAU builds, but struggle against Orks.... does that now mean Ork are better than tau?

If you don't mind my asking...what sorts of lists do you play against Orks? My boyz just eat plate after plate and never get anywhere.

CSM has just jumped from weak to powerful with one release.

You can now legally make a list containing 42 solo nurgle spawns and a bunch of respawning cultists in a 1850 game.

Anywayz, the ability to spam solo spawns is quite powerful as they will ensure board controle domination and roadblock of melee deathstars. I don't know a single shooty army that has enough msu powerful shooting to kil lthis many spawns. Don't forget, they're t6 3 wound each. Beasts. With 3+d6 s5 attacks on the charge.

You can take the warband that gets obsec on everything, get 2 mini-deathstars with lord, sorc and spawns or bikes, 2 min csm squads in rhinos to cap points, a havok squad, termies or chosen and than spam spawns - you'll still easilly fit 20 or so solo nurgle spawns. It'll be a nightmare to face for...literally anyone outside killpoint games.

The drawback being autolosing kill point matches.

Mathematically, a Nurgle spawn dies to lasguns like two tactical marines, for a higher cost.

 Ashiraya wrote:
The drawback being autolosing kill point matches.

Mathematically, a Nurgle spawn dies to lasguns like two tactical marines, for a higher cost.

Count in the fact that you can't kill more than one with a 50-strong blob. Also, he's gona have cover.

Here are a few calculations: 36 lazgun shots vs a spawn in the open will kill it, 54 with cover. Let's assume there's cover cause even with frf srf it's at least a 18-strong squad vs a spawn 'in the open', so 27 men. Autocannons will make it a bit easier and if you're running ~30-strong blobs with orders, you're likely to take some heavy weapons. A 30-strong blob with a priest and autocannons costs how much? 205? Than a pcs for orders as a tax, and it's around 230-240 per blob. That's 6 solo spawns.

Exactly. Spawn are one of the few odd units that aren't terrible. Apparently this was the opposite in the last edition.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Exactly. Spawn are one of the few odd units that aren't terrible. Apparently this was the opposite in the last edition.

4th edition Csm Spawn were known as some of the worst units in the game bar none, they used to run in random directions on a scatter dice per turn, they moved D6, they costed the same as three CSM, they had no armor, they had no armor penetration, they would on average lose to Fire Warriors or Equal Numbers of Guardsmen in melee combat assuming they didn't die to being shot. The only use of having Chaos Spawn as a model was when you got lucky with a specific purchasable Chaos Power that turned things into Chaos Spawn.

Martel732 wrote:
Forcing de to jink now turns off their offense

Again I agree. My buddy runs a pretty decent DE list. He can make it work by manipulating PFP with a very select CAD alongside dark artisan. I've seen it work well against everything from AdMech to Tau. It is monobuild list, but they can work against good list run by a good player.

Now Orks have Zhardsnark, and the ability to turn 2 assault. Now if a shooty army with good BS and plenty of templates gets first turn, they'll have a crazy difficult time, but Orks CAN play with most of the big boys. I've seen it. They are definitely hurting right now, but they have at least 3 lists that can work well. Not just one like DE (to my knowledge ). The Jink FAQ really neutered the army.

As far as I'm concerned the CSM players can eat their complaints along with a few dozen slices of humble pie. The last BA supplement had all of 2 formations that pass for decent. When the book got updated we got a nerf from cover to cover in spite of the fact that BA were already the worst book in the game, so forgive me if I'm not optimistic about AB.

IMO it's a race between IG and DE. CSM still have points cost problems, but from what I've seen the formations alone they'll be mid tier for sure. This is without knowing what their pun-tastic lores will offer.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Forcing de to jink now turns off their offense

Again I agree. My buddy runs a pretty decent DE list. He can make it work by manipulating PFP with a very select CAD alongside dark artisan. I've seen it work well against everything from AdMech to Tau. It is monobuild list, but they can work against good list run by a good player.

Now Orks have Zhardsnark, and the ability to turn 2 assault. Now if a shooty army with good BS and plenty of templates gets first turn, they'll have a crazy difficult time, but Orks CAN play with most of the big boys. I've seen it. They are definitely hurting right now, but they have at least 3 lists that can work well. Not just one like DE (to my knowledge ). The Jink FAQ really neutered the army.

As far as I'm concerned the CSM players can eat their complaints along with a few dozen slices of humble pie. The last BA supplement had all of 2 formations that pass for decent. When the book got updated we got a nerf from cover to cover in spite of the fact that BA were already the worst book in the game, so forgive me if I'm not optimistic about AB.

IMO it's a race between IG and DE. CSM still have points cost problems, but from what I've seen the formations alone they'll be mid tier for sure. This is without knowing what their pun-tastic lores will offer.

out of curiosity what are those 3 Builds for orks which are competitive in your mind?

As far as I know the only one that does well atm is Zhadsnark and biker spam (and thats utilizing forgeworld not codex ork) This build is ok at best, it relies mostly on the fact that Zhad's unit gets a 3+ jink Always, and a 2+ on Night fighting or if they turbo boost. Beyond that its just MSU bikes which any army can pull off these days. While Ork Warbikers are relatively close to correctly priced, the Nob is still a massive point sink for each MSU and if you don't have that nob they are irrelevant for the most part.

Some argue that the green Tide is really good but it has been proven to NOT be good. Any army with 2 decent CC units can stall the Green tide INDEFINITELY. This was a gimmick at best, its only real power is against people who have never faced it or read about it. 100+ S3 Boyz with 6+ Armor and a 5+ FNP isn't as scary as people make it out to be.

And for the 3rd, I literally have no idea what your talking about. I thought about it and I can't think of a single other build that would be considered to "Work Well" at the tournament level.

I do not play IG that often but it would appear to me that most of their lists are anti-ork. For the most part I don't see how orks would do very well against IG except utilizing the Zhadsnark biker spam.

Never said the builds were fit for tourneys, but they do fine in a competitive meta. I can't give you the exact list, but after Zhardsnark bikes, green Tide can work with the right assets (boom bommas/dakka jets) Gazzys formation (minus Gazzys himself), MANZ and a war boss with pain boy rushing one flank in a battle wagon, nob bikers with the majority of the green Tide rushing down the ither, waaagh every turn with flyer or stompa support can get it done. MSU Bikes a stompa full of boyz with a MANZ or nob biker deathstar will perform decently in most maelstrom missions.

Like I said, not tournament quality, but strong builds indeed. When your average squad of boys are throwing 80+ dice at you in a T2 assault units will be disappearing. Granted, if their momentum gets held up, problems arise, but the lists above are one heck of a CC glass cannon and have the mobility to win maelstrom as well (especially deadlock).

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Never said the builds were fit for tourneys, but they do fine in a competitive meta. I can't give you the exact list, but after Zhardsnark bikes, green Tide can work with the right assets (boom bommas/dakka jets) Gazzys formation (minus Gazzys himself), MANZ and a war boss with pain boy rushing one flank in a battle wagon, nob bikers with the majority of the green Tide rushing down the ither, waaagh every turn with flyer or stompa support can get it done. MSU Bikes a stompa full of boyz with a MANZ or nob biker deathstar will perform decently in most maelstrom missions.

Like I said, not tournament quality, but strong builds indeed. When your average squad of boys are throwing 80+ dice at you in a T2 assault units will be disappearing. Granted, if their momentum gets held up, problems arise, but the lists above are one heck of a CC glass cannon and have the mobility to win maelstrom as well (especially deadlock).

Unfortunately they don't function in competitive meta. IN a casual meta then yes they do function rather well, but when you start seeing players optimizing, stand by for a shellacking.

Nob Biker SUCK! They are so heavily over priced for what they do that it is ridiculous. 45pts for a T5 2W model that has a short range gun. If you give him a PK so he can do something useful your looking at 70pts for a single model. a SM can buy Attack bikes for cheaper then an ork can take Nob Bikers.

The Ghaz formation sucks, the only benefit from it is if you take Ghaz so you can have a fairly decent deathstar. And even then its not really competitive because your sinking around 1200-1300pts into the requirements just to make the stupid list. And honesty waaaaghing on your first turn isn't that great. Move 6, run D6 and charge 2 D6 with a reroll means your still only averaging about 16-18 inches of movements if your lucky enough to get an assault. And even then your really pushing your luck. If they are in cover or you have to move through cover it just worse and worse, add in overwatch and if you get that turn 1 assault then you worked a miracle.

The stompa? 770pts for a super heavy that doesn't have an invul save nor void shields. Not really worth it, especially since its dakka is stuck on 4th edition instead of updating to 7th. In other words it lacks dakka. you could cut 270pts off the stompa and it still wouldn't be an auto-include like the wraith knight is for Eldar.


Green tide doesn't work, its a gimmick, and once your opponent figures out how to deal with it then its GG. You also included the Bommer and Dakkajets in this. You have literally picked out some of the worst units in the Ork codex and said they are good in a competitive meta. Stompa, ork Flyers and Nob bikers. Either you have the luckiest Ork player in the world in your area or you don't know what your talking about.

I've seen them used effectively. Also the definition is pretty damn broad. Are we talking tournament lists at the LGS or are we talking hard lists but not enough to leave the place permanently stinking of heinous cheese?

If you're definition is the latter, I've seen it done. Net listers (not you, just most forum communities in general )might say it can't be done, but I've seen what skill can do. A BA List took top spot(against the usual boring ghudda) at a local tournament I was invited to. I've seen Orks trash Decurion and Canoptek Harvest, Bugs crush Triptide and farsight.

If your definition is the former, well... im sorry for ya mate.