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Has anyone considered that there may just be more active Ork players than DE or IG ones?

Tbh I think the ork player thinks, because DE do extremely well again Orks, it means they're generally better.

I honestly don't get why DE are considered "Weak"..

You get Lance and Haywire, some of the best Armour Penetration weapons in 7th ed. Outside of D.

Poison is your thing..

You get quick transports getting you to where you need to be..

Your CC and shooting isn't too shabby.

The only thing I see is a lack of MEQ Deathstar and access to D within their own codex..

Is this just a case of Lance requiring to pen rather than strip HP like the same issues with a Lascannon? I'm just not seeing it...

 happygolucky wrote:
I honestly don't get why DE are considered "Weak"..

You get Lance and Haywire, some of the best Armour Penetration weapons in 7th ed. Outside of D.

Poison is your thing..

You get quick transports getting you to where you need to be..

Your CC and shooting isn't too shabby.

The only thing I see is a lack of MEQ Deathstar and access to D within their own codex..

Is this just a case of Lance requiring to pen rather than strip HP like the same issues with a Lascannon? I'm just not seeing it...

DE are a casualty of the introduction of hull points (and the resulting change to anti-tank tactics) and the brokenness of Wave Serpents in 6th (and the resulting improvement in anti-skimmer tactics). Every time I've played against them I've popped every transport on the board by turn two and have had all the time in the world to mop up the footslogging T3/5+ troops with no anti-vehicle weaponry.

They're expensive, fragile, difficult to get a handle on, hard-countered by most even semi-competitive builds, and sitting on a 5e-vintage model range and set of statlines in a game that's had a long time to go more out-of-control around them. They're a legacy of a more balanced time sitting in the middle of a failing mess of power creep.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
I honestly don't get why DE are considered "Weak"..

You get Lance and Haywire, some of the best Armour Penetration weapons in 7th ed. Outside of D.

Poison is your thing..

You get quick transports getting you to where you need to be..

Your CC and shooting isn't too shabby.

The only thing I see is a lack of MEQ Deathstar and access to D within their own codex..

Is this just a case of Lance requiring to pen rather than strip HP like the same issues with a Lascannon? I'm just not seeing it...

DE are a casualty of the introduction of hull points (and the resulting change to anti-tank tactics) and the brokenness of Wave Serpents in 6th (and the resulting improvement in anti-skimmer tactics). Every time I've played against them I've popped every transport on the board by turn two and have had all the time in the world to mop up the footslogging T3/5+ troops with no anti-vehicle weaponry.

They're expensive, fragile, difficult to get a handle on, hard-countered by most even semi-competitive builds, and sitting on a 5e-vintage model range and set of statlines in a game that's had a long time to go more out-of-control around them. They're a legacy of a more balanced time sitting in the middle of a failing mess of power creep.

Their 7th edition codex nerfed a few things for them but for the most part they didn't really improve while everyone else got more powerful. The Coven's supplement helped them a lot more but that's limited to mostly a small range of melee focused units while their shooting continues to stagnate and losing that "glass cannon" edge they had. Now they are just glass while armies like Eldar and Tau can put out more dakka while being more durable and points efficient.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
I honestly don't get why DE are considered "Weak"..

You get Lance and Haywire, some of the best Armour Penetration weapons in 7th ed. Outside of D.

Poison is your thing..

You get quick transports getting you to where you need to be..

Your CC and shooting isn't too shabby.

The only thing I see is a lack of MEQ Deathstar and access to D within their own codex..

Is this just a case of Lance requiring to pen rather than strip HP like the same issues with a Lascannon? I'm just not seeing it...

DE are a casualty of the introduction of hull points (and the resulting change to anti-tank tactics) and the brokenness of Wave Serpents in 6th (and the resulting improvement in anti-skimmer tactics). Every time I've played against them I've popped every transport on the board by turn two and have had all the time in the world to mop up the footslogging T3/5+ troops with no anti-vehicle weaponry.

They're expensive, fragile, difficult to get a handle on, hard-countered by most even semi-competitive builds, and sitting on a 5e-vintage model range and set of statlines in a game that's had a long time to go more out-of-control around them. They're a legacy of a more balanced time sitting in the middle of a failing mess of power creep.

What army do you play? For me it is incredibly hard to kill DE Transports with ranged weapons. The best ranged anti-tank weapons orks have are Lootas, 10 lootas = 140pts firing on average 2 shots each = 20 shots, 7 hits and against a DE transport that is about 1 glances and 3 Pens. Plenty to kill it.

Of course that same DE Transport gets his Jink saves so 1 glance and 1 pen on average, unless the DE player has a brain and equipped it with nightshield to give it a 3+ Jink, in which case your really only going to lose about 1 HP if that.

So, a 150pt DE Squad with a transport is able to shrug off an entire round of Ork shooting with little to no effect. And like I said that is one of our best Anti-tank units.

So I have to ask what army your playing where you can destroy all enemy transports that have a 3+ jink save in 2 turns or less.

Side note: If your answer is "I Play tau" well then no kidding, your army is designed to laugh at cover saves and to shoot everyone off the table by the end of turn 2.

Friend, no one here is using orks, csm or ba as a standard.

Martel732 wrote:
Friend, no one here is using orks, csm or ba as a standard.

LOL I know Martel, but I am saying if your comparing even SMs against DE transports to that of Tau its still a very one sided affair. Every Tau list has some way of ignoring cover/jink saves. SMs have to buy special units/Forgeworld to get that ability. So again, the aforementioned posters comments about how easy it is to feth up DE needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

IF its a Tau player, well then no kidding, even fluffy Tau lists blow the bottom tier armies out of the water
If its a CSM or hell even an Eldar/SM list, how are you easily killing all those transports.

Another fact missing is the # of points in those games and how many vehicles are taken. IF its a 750point game and the person took 1 vehicle, well then duh it was easy.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
Tbh I think the ork player thinks, because DE do extremely well again Orks, it means they're generally better.

Yep. Usually the winner is better.

SemperMortis wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
I honestly don't get why DE are considered "Weak"..

You get Lance and Haywire, some of the best Armour Penetration weapons in 7th ed. Outside of D.

Poison is your thing..

You get quick transports getting you to where you need to be..

Your CC and shooting isn't too shabby.

The only thing I see is a lack of MEQ Deathstar and access to D within their own codex..

Is this just a case of Lance requiring to pen rather than strip HP like the same issues with a Lascannon? I'm just not seeing it...

DE are a casualty of the introduction of hull points (and the resulting change to anti-tank tactics) and the brokenness of Wave Serpents in 6th (and the resulting improvement in anti-skimmer tactics). Every time I've played against them I've popped every transport on the board by turn two and have had all the time in the world to mop up the footslogging T3/5+ troops with no anti-vehicle weaponry.

They're expensive, fragile, difficult to get a handle on, hard-countered by most even semi-competitive builds, and sitting on a 5e-vintage model range and set of statlines in a game that's had a long time to go more out-of-control around them. They're a legacy of a more balanced time sitting in the middle of a failing mess of power creep.

What army do you play? For me it is incredibly hard to kill DE Transports with ranged weapons. The best ranged anti-tank weapons orks have are Lootas, 10 lootas = 140pts firing on average 2 shots each = 20 shots, 7 hits and against a DE transport that is about 1 glances and 3 Pens. Plenty to kill it.

Of course that same DE Transport gets his Jink saves so 1 glance and 1 pen on average, unless the DE player has a brain and equipped it with nightshield to give it a 3+ Jink, in which case your really only going to lose about 1 HP if that.

So, a 150pt DE Squad with a transport is able to shrug off an entire round of Ork shooting with little to no effect. And like I said that is one of our best Anti-tank units.

So I have to ask what army your playing where you can destroy all enemy transports that have a 3+ jink save in 2 turns or less.

Side note: If your answer is "I Play tau" well then no kidding, your army is designed to laugh at cover saves and to shoot everyone off the table by the end of turn 2.

Just to throw antidotal evidence out there but I tabled a Dark Eldar player on turn 2 with Ork shooting

Forcing de to jink now turns off their offense

I can't believe someone has trouble popping AV10.

Dark Eldar are definitely bottom tier for sure.

Martel732 wrote:
Forcing de to jink now turns off their offense

True, but to force those Lootas to take a moral check they only have to kill three of them, and with LD7 and no Character (unless you bought a mek) your going to have a bad time.

AV 10 is easy to pop, AV10 with a 3+ Jink save is a lot harder, especially when you can spam 6-8 of them in a 1,500pt game.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
Tbh I think the ork player thinks, because DE do extremely well again Orks, it means they're generally better.

Yep. Usually the winner is better.

It's also like how my IG can generally beat the most common TAU builds, but struggle against Orks.... does that now mean Ork are better than tau?

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
Tbh I think the ork player thinks, because DE do extremely well again Orks, it means they're generally better.

Yep. Usually the winner is better.

It's also like how my IG can generally beat the most common TAU builds, but struggle against Orks.... does that now mean Ork are better than tau?

If you don't mind my asking...what sorts of lists do you play against Orks? My boyz just eat plate after plate and never get anywhere.

CSM has just jumped from weak to powerful with one release.

You can now legally make a list containing 42 solo nurgle spawns and a bunch of respawning cultists in a 1850 game.

Anywayz, the ability to spam solo spawns is quite powerful as they will ensure board controle domination and roadblock of melee deathstars. I don't know a single shooty army that has enough msu powerful shooting to kil lthis many spawns. Don't forget, they're t6 3 wound each. Beasts. With 3+d6 s5 attacks on the charge.

You can take the warband that gets obsec on everything, get 2 mini-deathstars with lord, sorc and spawns or bikes, 2 min csm squads in rhinos to cap points, a havok squad, termies or chosen and than spam spawns - you'll still easilly fit 20 or so solo nurgle spawns. It'll be a nightmare to face for...literally anyone outside killpoint games.

The drawback being autolosing kill point matches.

Mathematically, a Nurgle spawn dies to lasguns like two tactical marines, for a higher cost.

 Ashiraya wrote:
The drawback being autolosing kill point matches.

Mathematically, a Nurgle spawn dies to lasguns like two tactical marines, for a higher cost.

Count in the fact that you can't kill more than one with a 50-strong blob. Also, he's gona have cover.

Here are a few calculations: 36 lazgun shots vs a spawn in the open will kill it, 54 with cover. Let's assume there's cover cause even with frf srf it's at least a 18-strong squad vs a spawn 'in the open', so 27 men. Autocannons will make it a bit easier and if you're running ~30-strong blobs with orders, you're likely to take some heavy weapons. A 30-strong blob with a priest and autocannons costs how much? 205? Than a pcs for orders as a tax, and it's around 230-240 per blob. That's 6 solo spawns.

Exactly. Spawn are one of the few odd units that aren't terrible. Apparently this was the opposite in the last edition.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Exactly. Spawn are one of the few odd units that aren't terrible. Apparently this was the opposite in the last edition.

4th edition Csm Spawn were known as some of the worst units in the game bar none, they used to run in random directions on a scatter dice per turn, they moved D6, they costed the same as three CSM, they had no armor, they had no armor penetration, they would on average lose to Fire Warriors or Equal Numbers of Guardsmen in melee combat assuming they didn't die to being shot. The only use of having Chaos Spawn as a model was when you got lucky with a specific purchasable Chaos Power that turned things into Chaos Spawn.

Martel732 wrote:
Forcing de to jink now turns off their offense

Again I agree. My buddy runs a pretty decent DE list. He can make it work by manipulating PFP with a very select CAD alongside dark artisan. I've seen it work well against everything from AdMech to Tau. It is monobuild list, but they can work against good list run by a good player.

Now Orks have Zhardsnark, and the ability to turn 2 assault. Now if a shooty army with good BS and plenty of templates gets first turn, they'll have a crazy difficult time, but Orks CAN play with most of the big boys. I've seen it. They are definitely hurting right now, but they have at least 3 lists that can work well. Not just one like DE (to my knowledge ). The Jink FAQ really neutered the army.

As far as I'm concerned the CSM players can eat their complaints along with a few dozen slices of humble pie. The last BA supplement had all of 2 formations that pass for decent. When the book got updated we got a nerf from cover to cover in spite of the fact that BA were already the worst book in the game, so forgive me if I'm not optimistic about AB.

IMO it's a race between IG and DE. CSM still have points cost problems, but from what I've seen the formations alone they'll be mid tier for sure. This is without knowing what their pun-tastic lores will offer.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Forcing de to jink now turns off their offense

Again I agree. My buddy runs a pretty decent DE list. He can make it work by manipulating PFP with a very select CAD alongside dark artisan. I've seen it work well against everything from AdMech to Tau. It is monobuild list, but they can work against good list run by a good player.

Now Orks have Zhardsnark, and the ability to turn 2 assault. Now if a shooty army with good BS and plenty of templates gets first turn, they'll have a crazy difficult time, but Orks CAN play with most of the big boys. I've seen it. They are definitely hurting right now, but they have at least 3 lists that can work well. Not just one like DE (to my knowledge ). The Jink FAQ really neutered the army.

As far as I'm concerned the CSM players can eat their complaints along with a few dozen slices of humble pie. The last BA supplement had all of 2 formations that pass for decent. When the book got updated we got a nerf from cover to cover in spite of the fact that BA were already the worst book in the game, so forgive me if I'm not optimistic about AB.

IMO it's a race between IG and DE. CSM still have points cost problems, but from what I've seen the formations alone they'll be mid tier for sure. This is without knowing what their pun-tastic lores will offer.

out of curiosity what are those 3 Builds for orks which are competitive in your mind?

As far as I know the only one that does well atm is Zhadsnark and biker spam (and thats utilizing forgeworld not codex ork) This build is ok at best, it relies mostly on the fact that Zhad's unit gets a 3+ jink Always, and a 2+ on Night fighting or if they turbo boost. Beyond that its just MSU bikes which any army can pull off these days. While Ork Warbikers are relatively close to correctly priced, the Nob is still a massive point sink for each MSU and if you don't have that nob they are irrelevant for the most part.

Some argue that the green Tide is really good but it has been proven to NOT be good. Any army with 2 decent CC units can stall the Green tide INDEFINITELY. This was a gimmick at best, its only real power is against people who have never faced it or read about it. 100+ S3 Boyz with 6+ Armor and a 5+ FNP isn't as scary as people make it out to be.

And for the 3rd, I literally have no idea what your talking about. I thought about it and I can't think of a single other build that would be considered to "Work Well" at the tournament level.

I do not play IG that often but it would appear to me that most of their lists are anti-ork. For the most part I don't see how orks would do very well against IG except utilizing the Zhadsnark biker spam.

Never said the builds were fit for tourneys, but they do fine in a competitive meta. I can't give you the exact list, but after Zhardsnark bikes, green Tide can work with the right assets (boom bommas/dakka jets) Gazzys formation (minus Gazzys himself), MANZ and a war boss with pain boy rushing one flank in a battle wagon, nob bikers with the majority of the green Tide rushing down the ither, waaagh every turn with flyer or stompa support can get it done. MSU Bikes a stompa full of boyz with a MANZ or nob biker deathstar will perform decently in most maelstrom missions.

Like I said, not tournament quality, but strong builds indeed. When your average squad of boys are throwing 80+ dice at you in a T2 assault units will be disappearing. Granted, if their momentum gets held up, problems arise, but the lists above are one heck of a CC glass cannon and have the mobility to win maelstrom as well (especially deadlock).

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Never said the builds were fit for tourneys, but they do fine in a competitive meta. I can't give you the exact list, but after Zhardsnark bikes, green Tide can work with the right assets (boom bommas/dakka jets) Gazzys formation (minus Gazzys himself), MANZ and a war boss with pain boy rushing one flank in a battle wagon, nob bikers with the majority of the green Tide rushing down the ither, waaagh every turn with flyer or stompa support can get it done. MSU Bikes a stompa full of boyz with a MANZ or nob biker deathstar will perform decently in most maelstrom missions.

Like I said, not tournament quality, but strong builds indeed. When your average squad of boys are throwing 80+ dice at you in a T2 assault units will be disappearing. Granted, if their momentum gets held up, problems arise, but the lists above are one heck of a CC glass cannon and have the mobility to win maelstrom as well (especially deadlock).

Unfortunately they don't function in competitive meta. IN a casual meta then yes they do function rather well, but when you start seeing players optimizing, stand by for a shellacking.

Nob Biker SUCK! They are so heavily over priced for what they do that it is ridiculous. 45pts for a T5 2W model that has a short range gun. If you give him a PK so he can do something useful your looking at 70pts for a single model. a SM can buy Attack bikes for cheaper then an ork can take Nob Bikers.

The Ghaz formation sucks, the only benefit from it is if you take Ghaz so you can have a fairly decent deathstar. And even then its not really competitive because your sinking around 1200-1300pts into the requirements just to make the stupid list. And honesty waaaaghing on your first turn isn't that great. Move 6, run D6 and charge 2 D6 with a reroll means your still only averaging about 16-18 inches of movements if your lucky enough to get an assault. And even then your really pushing your luck. If they are in cover or you have to move through cover it just worse and worse, add in overwatch and if you get that turn 1 assault then you worked a miracle.

The stompa? 770pts for a super heavy that doesn't have an invul save nor void shields. Not really worth it, especially since its dakka is stuck on 4th edition instead of updating to 7th. In other words it lacks dakka. you could cut 270pts off the stompa and it still wouldn't be an auto-include like the wraith knight is for Eldar.


Green tide doesn't work, its a gimmick, and once your opponent figures out how to deal with it then its GG. You also included the Bommer and Dakkajets in this. You have literally picked out some of the worst units in the Ork codex and said they are good in a competitive meta. Stompa, ork Flyers and Nob bikers. Either you have the luckiest Ork player in the world in your area or you don't know what your talking about.

I've seen them used effectively. Also the definition is pretty damn broad. Are we talking tournament lists at the LGS or are we talking hard lists but not enough to leave the place permanently stinking of heinous cheese?

If you're definition is the latter, I've seen it done. Net listers (not you, just most forum communities in general )might say it can't be done, but I've seen what skill can do. A BA List took top spot(against the usual boring ghudda) at a local tournament I was invited to. I've seen Orks trash Decurion and Canoptek Harvest, Bugs crush Triptide and farsight.

If your definition is the former, well... im sorry for ya mate.