I really need a stats for a Named characters in-built warlord traits to see what they get?
If anyone has a codex hearby pretty-please could you spoil that?
from wh40k 4chan: Heroic Bearing: All friendly BLOOD ANGELS units withing 6" autopass morale tests. Dante has this as his mandatory trait.
Yay... Dante just keeps getting worse and worse.
Yeah I was disappointed in this too. Morale warlord traits are not my favorite at all, specially for SM armies in general with ATSKNF. He's one of the most expensive characters of all the SM named characters at 215 points and tbh, Azreal at 170, literally blows him out of the water in CC, special rules, and auras, and so does Calgar at 200 points. He should be in the 180 point range imo for what he does, or have another special ability. He literally only has chapter master. the rest is gear and he's not carrying better gear than say Azreal.
One of the key things with Dante compared to the other options though is SPEED. Compared to how Chapter Masters and Captains worked last edition, you kinda treat him the same way. Plus, I don't know if Death Company still have Fearless so this is a good stock trait to go with for a large amount of them
Summary of the major points changes from the MWG review:
Gabriel Seth - bunch of buffs including Chapter Master, extra AP, extra hit on 6 in the Fight Phase
No more sang Priests with jump pack/bike in codex. Still in index. Ditto for tons of other index-only options.
lib dread 20pts cheaper
termie lib down 25pts
Chaplain termie down 15pts
Astorath's weapon +1s
Tycho the Lost new "dead mans hand" (Melee S:user AP-2 Dd3)
Cpt Tycho also gains dead man's hand
termie captain down 15pts
16 new units (lieutenants, primaris stuff, planes, anti air vehicles, etc)
techmarine down 13pts
Tactical squad - sergeant may now take a Melta Bomb
Sanguinary Guard down 2 points
Chapter Banner nerfed - was immune to morale, now +1LD. Bonus to wound rolls stays the same.
Sanguinary Novitiate new unit (identical to SM apothecary, just has a Bloody Blood Blood name)
DC Dread down 38pts
Terminator Ancient new unit
Company Champion down 16pts
Terminator assault squad down 5ppm
Furioso Dread down 52 points
Blood Talons now S+4 -2AP 3Damage, reroll failed hit and wound rolls for this weapon
Assault marines now get melta and plasma guns
So it looks like the only bangle-specific stuff that didn't get good changes would be the Baal Preds and Sanguinary Guard. Death Company and Fancy Dreadnoughts are definitely sitting pretty right about now.
Tiberius501 wrote: The fluff for it is that a group of Primaris Intercessors and their Lieutenant were performing a small scale assault on a planet, where a much larger threat has been discovered (which will be different depending on my opponent), so a Libararian dread leading some Archangels are coming down to relieve them.
Spoiler:
Not sure if it's particularly competitive haha, but it should be fun I think
--- [BATTALION]---
HQ - Sanguinary Priest w/ jump pack and power fist
- Primaris Lieutenant
TROOP
- 10x Intercessors w/ Auto boltrifles
- 5x Intercessors w/ normal boltrifles
- 5x Intercessors w/ normal boltrifles
It's sitting around 1970pts like that. Humming and harring over swapping out the priest and a Sanguinary Guard with the Sanguinor. That puts me at 1999-2001pts, depending on the price of the ancient. But with the priest aiding the guard with his +1 strength, they're wounding most infantry and elites on 2's on the charge, which is glory. But the Sanguinor would give them all extra attacks which would probably help more in the long run, so not sure haha
EDIT: planning on giving the ancient the 5+ disgustingly resilient standard relic, and my warlord (Libby dread) the +1 dmg warlord trait
Unfortunately they changed Death Masks on Sang Guard. It's the whole unit or no one. Still 2 ppm.
There's no confusion, they meant Advancing. You'd like it to allow shooting too, sure, but it seems that wasn't their intent.
Ok, why would i advance my baal pred D6+6 when i cannot fire any of my guns, because they all are heavy ?
Because... you put heavy flamers on it, so you need to get up the board in turn 1 so you're in range of something turn 2?
In range of being charged so I can't shoot you mean. Lucifer Engines are a joke. I really like the Dex, but the trifecta of fail is Dante, DC, and Baal Pred. Really bummed since that is a lot of our key stuff (especially DC).
Baal pred I can definitely agree (though in my index the Flamestorm at least is an assault weapon - did they FAQ that?) it's just terrible, no way to make it good for the high points cost. Gun to my head had to use them, I'd probably bring 4 preds, 2 baal with twin assault and two HBs, 2 4-las preds, and try to make use of Killshot which would be OK on the Baals....but theyre just so goddamn expensive.
Death Company though - what makes you say they're so bad? Seems like they've got a few things going for them, namely a fairly cheap character to give them that vital reroll on the charge, a number of solid stratagems, and good synergy with the Red Thirst rule since S4 is arguably the best strength to be at to make use of that rule. Just run 'em with Chainswords and the occasional Power Sword/Chainsword and stick em near Lemartes, and I'd think they'd go to town. Their little "move before the game starts" is after the determination of who gets the first turn, so if you have a good out of LOS spot to stash them upon deployment, then you're good to try and make use of the stratagem, otherwise deep strike them and they've got solid odds of getting in (or you can practically guarantee they get in with 3d6 charge.)
Bring in a character on a jump pack and give him the Angels Wings relic and you can even deny the enemy overwatch on the turn they come in.
the_scotsman wrote: Baal pred I can definitely agree (though in my index the Flamestorm at least is an assault weapon - did they FAQ that?) it's just terrible, no way to make it good for the high points cost. Gun to my head had to use them, I'd probably bring 4 preds, 2 baal with twin assault and two HBs, 2 4-las preds, and try to make use of Killshot which would be OK on the Baals....but theyre just so goddamn expensive.
I had to double check, but it's still heavy.
the_scotsman wrote: Death Company though - what makes you say they're so bad? Seems like they've got a few things going for them, namely a fairly cheap character to give them that vital reroll on the charge, a number of solid stratagems, and good synergy with the Red Thirst rule since S4 is arguably the best strength to be at to make use of that rule. Just run 'em with Chainswords and the occasional Power Sword/Chainsword and stick em near Lemartes, and I'd think they'd go to town. Their little "move before the game starts" is after the determination of who gets the first turn, so if you have a good out of LOS spot to stash them upon deployment, then you're good to try and make use of the stratagem, otherwise deep strike them and they've got solid odds of getting in (or you can practically guarantee they get in with 3d6 charge.)
I have the Codex. They're OK, but Vets do their job better, cheaper, and with a 3++ from Storm Shields. When Berzerkers got redone, the Blood Angels community was expecting something to change with them to bring them more in line. That didn't happen which was a real bummer. Double activation, a 5+ FNP, or a point reduction would have been welcome. FNP was our rule before anyone else had it. It started at a 4+, went to a 5+, and now a 6+. I'm just bitter. They weren't touched from the Index. Copy paste. I'll still use them as it's my favorite unit, but they're glass cannons now. Berzerkers are cheaper and do more. It's stupid.
the_scotsman wrote: Bring in a character on a jump pack and give him the Angels Wings relic and you can even deny the enemy overwatch on the turn they come in.
There are a lot of great combos. No doubt. Our key 3 units needed some love that they didn't get. Still the best Dex we've had in a long time. I can work with this.
Huh. That's strange. I don't have the codex in hand, but I am sitting here with my Index on the profile of the Baal Pred and the Flamestorm Cannon is printed as "Assault D6", but when you look at it in the Space Marines Wargear List in the back it's listed as "Heavy D6".
Maybe it got FAQed.
You're talking about Vanguard Veterans I assume? 2ppm less, lose out on Black Rage and access to Lemartes/move before the game starts stratagem. I dunno, I'm not seeing it, the Death Company would seem to be massively more able to get into combat, and then they dish out 25% more damage when they get there for 10% more points. You can drop vanvets and use the 3d6 assault stratagem, but the max unit size is 10. I'd rather have 15 Death Company with Lemartes to maximise the use I get out of the stratagem.
They're certainly more glass cannon against anti-elite weapons with the lack of storm shields, but for an alpha strike unit I'm going to dump most of my cp's into I think I'd rather have the increased damage and unit size cap.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I guess we will just have to wait until Chapter Approved 2018 for a decent amount of point reductions. Or not. I am not counting on it.
Yeah they barely reduced the points on furiosos, DC dreads, librarian dreads, sanguinary guard, intercessors, aggressors, whirlwinds, drop pods, vindicators, all the terminator characters, assault terminators, stalkers, inceptors, or librarians AT ALL.
When will GW release a codex with a decent number of points decreases? barely ANYTHING got buffed!
This is the way DA and BA should have always been. I play a vanilla biker list. Used to be White Scars, now I count them as Salamanders. They've been Shelved for the time being... I'm on th e lookout for any good SM combos.
I have the Codex. They're OK, but Vets do their job better, cheaper, and with a 3++ from Storm Shields. When Berzerkers got redone, the Blood Angels community was expecting something to change with them to bring them more in line. That didn't happen which was a real bummer. Double activation, a 5+ FNP, or a point reduction would have been welcome. FNP was our rule before anyone else had it. It started at a 4+, went to a 5+, and now a 6+. I'm just bitter. They weren't touched from the Index. Copy paste. I'll still use them as it's my favorite unit, but they're glass cannons now. Berzerkers are cheaper and do more. It's stupid.
While I agree with a lot of your thoughts, I think the DC are quite a bit better than your giving them credit for. In comparison to Zerkers, they are 1 point more expensive, or 4 with JP. Zerkers have a slightly better statline with the extra 1 str, but don't DC have the red thirst which is really even better than their higher str as the DC will hit on 3+ all the way up to T7 with chain/power swords. this gets better with axes for only 4 points. With JPs you don't need to pay the Rhino tax. Berzerkers get chainaxes and that's it, DC can take a wide array of wargear. They are slightly more survivable after they getinto CC with 6+ FnP, which is where my biggest beef is. I remember the 4+ sang priest days, but I would be good with 5+ at least on them. DC can get more attacks easier I believe. They both come with 2 base attacks and have a 3rd with chainswords, but DC get the 4th attack when charging from black rage and an easy 5th attack from unleash rage, plus if you have characters like Lemartes, which i'm sure everyone will be using with DC, buffs them even more. I probably missed some things too but there are my thoughts off the top of my head.
I never believed they were just going to copy and paste the Berzerker double attack. I was hoping for a slight change but I still think they are a pretty damn good unit.
Now let me go bitch about the gakky DA preview....
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Not gonna lie, this is probably gonna be better than the Vanilla Codex, AND it looks like the Dark Angels one is gonna be better too.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I guess we will just have to wait until Chapter Approved 2018 for a decent amount of point reductions. Or not. I am not counting on it.
Yeah they barely reduced the points on furiosos, DC dreads, librarian dreads, sanguinary guard, intercessors, aggressors, whirlwinds, drop pods, vindicators, all the terminator characters, assault terminators, stalkers, inceptors, or librarians AT ALL.
When will GW release a codex with a decent number of points decreases? barely ANYTHING got buffed!
Only four of those things are BA only. The others were effectively changed in Chapter Approved anyway. Thanks, GW for not gaking on us like last edition by charging us more points for the same thing because we paint our models red.
Death Company, Baal Predators, and Commander Dante all remain overpriced at best, hilariously so at worst. Our Strategems that allow our army to run as thematically appropriate are all overpriced. The Baal Predator doesn't even work in its current form. Yay, it can advance a ton, for what?!
casvalremdeikun wrote: I guess we will just have to wait until Chapter Approved 2018 for a decent amount of point reductions. Or not. I am not counting on it.
Yeah they barely reduced the points on furiosos, DC dreads, librarian dreads, sanguinary guard, intercessors, aggressors, whirlwinds, drop pods, vindicators, all the terminator characters, assault terminators, stalkers, inceptors, or librarians AT ALL.
When will GW release a codex with a decent number of points decreases? barely ANYTHING got buffed!
Only four of those things are BA only. The others were effectively changed in Chapter Approved anyway. Thanks, GW for not gaking on us like last edition by charging us more points for the same thing because we paint our models red.
Death Company, Baal Predators, and Commander Dante all remain overpriced at best, hilariously so at worst. Our Strategems that allow our army to run as thematically appropriate are all overpriced. The Baal Predator doesn't even work in its current form. Yay, it can advance a ton, for what?!
Yeah I'm pretty amazed that it feels like there are a lot of people that lived inside a hibernation bubble and only paid attention to the BA specific index portion. NONE of those units are "new" as they're still Space Marine units and Blood Angels have the Space Marine keyword so if you really wanted to use Stalkers (which people dont) then you could include them in your BA list with no problems. Also almost all those "reduced cost" units are still bad and won't see play unless the person doesn't own any other models.
What I notice is not the lazy copy/paste of existing units and calling them "new" but the lack of changes to our ACTUAL unique units such as DC, Baals, etc which just feel incredibly lackluster. Having to spend a ton of CP to make DC playable is really an insult when Berserkers are good with their standard entry.
Not gonna lie, this is probably gonna be better than the Vanilla Codex, AND it looks like the Dark Angels one is gonna be better too.
You may not be lying but that's still an absurd statement. Are you discounting Guilliman? BA is like 95% the same as Ultramarines but without the Primarch which is way better than +1 to wound in some fight phases.
Saying that DC suck because they need CP to be usefull... and then you said that Berzerkers are good by their standard entry?
Berzerkers are good, no doubt, but even putting them in rhinos isn't good enough for the competitive tables.
If you see Berzerkers in competitive tables is because the Alpha Legion Stratagem, so yeah, they are comparable with DC.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I guess we will just have to wait until Chapter Approved 2018 for a decent amount of point reductions. Or not. I am not counting on it.
Yeah they barely reduced the points on furiosos, DC dreads, librarian dreads, sanguinary guard, intercessors, aggressors, whirlwinds, drop pods, vindicators, all the terminator characters, assault terminators, stalkers, inceptors, or librarians AT ALL.
When will GW release a codex with a decent number of points decreases? barely ANYTHING got buffed!
Only four of those things are BA only. The others were effectively changed in Chapter Approved anyway. Thanks, GW for not gaking on us like last edition by charging us more points for the same thing because we paint our models red.
Death Company, Baal Predators, and Commander Dante all remain overpriced at best, hilariously so at worst. Our Strategems that allow our army to run as thematically appropriate are all overpriced. The Baal Predator doesn't even work in its current form. Yay, it can advance a ton, for what?!
Yeah I'm pretty amazed that it feels like there are a lot of people that lived inside a hibernation bubble and only paid attention to the BA specific index portion. NONE of those units are "new" as they're still Space Marine units and Blood Angels have the Space Marine keyword so if you really wanted to use Stalkers (which people dont) then you could include them in your BA list with no problems. Also almost all those "reduced cost" units are still bad and won't see play unless the person doesn't own any other models.
What I notice is not the lazy copy/paste of existing units and calling them "new" but the lack of changes to our ACTUAL unique units such as DC, Baals, etc which just feel incredibly lackluster. Having to spend a ton of CP to make DC playable is really an insult when Berserkers are good with their standard entry.
Not gonna lie, this is probably gonna be better than the Vanilla Codex, AND it looks like the Dark Angels one is gonna be better too.
You may not be lying but that's still an absurd statement. Are you discounting Guilliman? BA is like 95% the same as Ultramarines but without the Primarch which is way better than +1 to wound in some fight phases.
I'll 100% give you one thing: The Baal Pred is hot garbage. That unit in 8th is a Defiler for certain. But saying Death Company got no change when you now have a melee focused chapter tactic that specifically peaks in effectiveness at S4 and half a dozen stratagems that work amazingly well on them is just goofy. Also, since when do Khorne Bezerkers not cost you 1cp per squad to make them playable? how many rhino-rush bazonkers are you seeing in your meta?
Unique BA units that got changes:
-Gabriel Seth
-Captain Tycho
-Tycho the lost
-DC Dreads
-Astorath
-Sanguinary Guard
-Furioso Dreads
-Librarian Dreads
Unique BA units that did not see any changes:
-Dante
-Baal Pred
-Sang Priest
-Corbulo
-Mephiston (oh, other than the WC5 power that lets him move 18", but I'm sure that doesn't make him more playable)
-Sanguinor
-Sang Ancient
even if you don't count new Warlord Traits, Relics, stratagems, psychic powers, the new chapter tactic, or any units that are from Codex Space Marine as well, an absolute crapton of stuff got buffed.
bobafett012 wrote:While I agree with a lot of your thoughts, I think the DC are quite a bit better than your giving them credit for. In comparison to Zerkers, they are 1 point more expensive, or 4 with JP. Zerkers have a slightly better statline with the extra 1 str, but don't DC have the red thirst which is really even better than their higher str as the DC will hit on 3+ all the way up to T7 with chain/power swords. this gets better with axes for only 4 points. With JPs you don't need to pay the Rhino tax. Berzerkers get chainaxes and that's it, DC can take a wide array of wargear. They are slightly more survivable after they get into CC with 6+ FnP, which is where my biggest beef is. I remember the 4+ sang priest days, but I would be good with 5+ at least on them. DC can get more attacks easier I believe. They both come with 2 base attacks and have a 3rd with chainswords, but DC get the 4th attack when charging from black rage and an easy 5th attack from unleash rage, plus if you have characters like Lemartes, which i'm sure everyone will be using with DC, buffs them even more. I probably missed some things too but there are my thoughts off the top of my head.
galas wrote:If you see Berzerkers in competitive tables is because the Alpha Legion Stratagem, so yeah, they are comparable with DC.
Berzerkers comparable with Death Company? Berzerkers vs. Death Company is a slaughter. I'm going to quote someone from B&C, because he said it more concisely than I could:
Berzerkers with chainaxes in a rhino are, point for point, still better than anything we can muster even with the new dex. Having a unit that can put out 6 (8 on the charge if they are WE) Str6 -1AP per model for 17 pts a pop is ridiculously efficient and scary.
bobafett012 wrote:I never believed they were just going to copy and paste the Berzerker double attack. I was hoping for a slight change but I still think they are a pretty damn good unit.
I didn't either.
the_scotsman wrote:That unit in 8th is a Defiler for certain. But saying Death Company got no change when you now have a melee focused chapter tactic that specifically peaks in effectiveness at S4 and half a dozen stratagems that work amazingly well on them is just goofy. Also, since when do Khorne Bezerkers not cost you 1cp per squad to make them playable? how many rhino-rush bazonkers are you seeing in your meta?
Unique BA units that got changes:
-Sanguinary Guard
Fair enough. Death Company got a bit better, but their Power Level is laughable. I get why it is the way it is, but the unit needs a rework. At least give them fearless back. They die in droves.
What changed with the Sanguinary Guard? I'm not seeing it unless you are referring to point changes and the entire unit needing to take a Death Mask.
Berzerkers comparable with Death Company? Berzerkers vs. Death Company is a slaughter. I'm going to quote someone from B&C, because he said it more concisely than I could:
Berzerkers with chainaxes in a rhino are, point for point, still better than anything we can muster even with the new dex. Having a unit that can put out 6 (8 on the charge if they are WE) Str6 -1AP per model for 17 pts a pop is ridiculously efficient and scary.
If a squad of DC charge those Berzerkers, they are toast, and likewise, if the Berzerkers charge the DC, they are toast. When models are rolling that many attacks, whoever charges wins. They don't need 8 or even 6 attacks a piece to beat a squad of DC. TBH, i'm not sure what your saying the DC should be able to do and for what cost. they are only 4 PPM more than berzerkers. would you be satisfied if they had 5+ FNP? what about 4+ FnP? what about STR 5 instead of 4? 3 attacks base instead of 2? none of that stuff is really going to keep them alive vs a full squad of Berzerkers charging and striking first.
Sure I miss the old DC from 5th but i also remember when JPs on them were like 15 points per model and basically unusable so i'm glad for being able to run them with JP. I also remember when they just ran towards the closest model every turn. We've had some bad iteration and rules for these guys. Currently they aren't that bad. They could use a slight tweak for sure, but overall, i'm pretty happy with them. Then again, i'm no waac or heavy tournament player either so maybe it's just me.
theharrower wrote: Fair enough. Death Company got a bit better, but their Power Level is laughable. I get why it is the way it is, but the unit needs a rework. At least give them fearless back. They die in droves.
What changed with the Sanguinary Guard? I'm not seeing it unless you are referring to point changes and the entire unit needing to take a Death Mask.
Probably the point changes. they were pretty significant though. 2 points off the sang guard, 6 off the angelus bolter and 1 off the encarmine sword. So a drop of 9 points per model is pretty nice. A 10 man squad for 350 points isn't the worst thing in the world for flying terminators
Sure I miss the old DC from 5th but i also remember when JPs on them were like 15 points per model and basically unusable so i'm glad for being able to run them with JP. I also remember when they just ran towards the closest model every turn. We've had some bad iteration and rules for these guys. Currently they aren't that bad. They could use a slight tweak for sure, but overall, i'm pretty happy with them. Then again, i'm no waac or heavy tournament player either so maybe it's just me.
Doubtful it's just you. The Death Company has a long and storied history of being underpowered, grossly overpriced or both.
This iteration seems fairly reasonable all told, and has several layers of buffs that can be applied, from auras, to psi powers to stratagems.
Berzerkers comparable with Death Company? Berzerkers vs. Death Company is a slaughter. I'm going to quote someone from B&C, because he said it more concisely than I could:
Berzerkers with chainaxes in a rhino are, point for point, still better than anything we can muster even with the new dex. Having a unit that can put out 6 (8 on the charge if they are WE) Str6 -1AP per model for 17 pts a pop is ridiculously efficient and scary.
If a squad of DC charge those Berzerkers, they are toast, and likewise, if the Berzerkers charge the DC, they are toast. When models are rolling that many attacks, whoever charges wins. They don't need 8 or even 6 attacks a piece to beat a squad of DC.
This.
In a Berzerker vs Death Company comparison, it is pointless to say "one unit kills the other better" because, either way, whoever charges/attacks first will win due to the other units likely being totally wiped. Likewise, it's easy to say that Berzerkers with chainaxes are worthless if they don't go first and you're able to kill the rhino 1st turn.
Overall I'm liking all the new stuff we're getting, a great chapter tactic that encourages a different style of play than is available in the standard marine codex and some general point drops on some of our unique units/wargear especially our dreads.
Whilst the Baal still seems pretty unplayable people calling our the DC as useless need to take a chill pill. They are a very effective CC unit with good weapon, movement and deployment options for a reasonable price. Are they as good as Zerkers at what Zerkers do best? NO but why should they be, Zerkers quite rightly have an excellent rule that makes them probably the best infantry assault unit in the game. Because they exist it doesn't make DC rubbish, comparing units to the best in the game at a specific roll is a poor way of evaluating a unit especially as the units are quite different in terms of loadout and special rules. Zerkers for instance are rubbish at deepstriking and moving up ruins and over impassable terrain where as DC with packs are great at that, zerkers must be rubbish ;-)
The red thirst is really good. I guess you can make a close combat “CT” very powerful because marines aren’t all that great in CC to start with.
It seems pretty decent for the basic primaris guys. Others have talked already (rightly) about how much it improves dedicated close combat units. The other thing it does is to turn ok-ish close combat guys into pretty good ones. Reivers, intercessors and (I guess) hellblasters are all made significantly more dangerous in combat by this.
I think you could quite legitimately field a whole bunch of primaris guys, so that you’d have respectable firepower, durability and cc power. It’s a very different kind of army to one based around guys with one wound, hundreds of attacks in cc but negligible shooting.
I'd say almost a 0% chance of that since they've never had captains be able to take death masks. They couldn't even notice the crippling problems with the Baal predator when they copy/pasted the entry, which was a fairly low hanging fruit.
I'd say almost a 0% chance of that since they've never had captains be able to take death masks. They couldn't even notice the crippling problems with the Baal predator when they copy/pasted the entry, which was a fairly low hanging fruit.
So I just noticed Death Company are missing the Death Company Keyword in the Codex. Same thing happened in the Index. Definitely a copy and paste job. Don't they have editors?
I'd say almost a 0% chance of that since they've never had captains be able to take death masks. They couldn't even notice the crippling problems with the Baal predator when they copy/pasted the entry, which was a fairly low hanging fruit.
So I just noticed Death Company are missing the Death Company Keyword in the Codex. Same thing happened in the Index. Definitely a copy and paste job. Don't they have editors?
Well, in the index, there isn't much reason to give them a 'death company keyword'. The got Black Rage because it was in their ability list, and nothing interacted with DC as a keyword.
Though, actually looking at the Index, they _do_ have Death Company as a keyword.
So if they're missing it, it isn't a 'copy and paste job.'
I'd say almost a 0% chance of that since they've never had captains be able to take death masks. They couldn't even notice the crippling problems with the Baal predator when they copy/pasted the entry, which was a fairly low hanging fruit.
So I just noticed Death Company are missing the Death Company Keyword in the Codex. Same thing happened in the Index. Definitely a copy and paste job. Don't they have editors?
Well, in the index, there isn't much reason to give them a 'death company keyword'. The got Black Rage because it was in their ability list, and nothing interacted with DC as a keyword.
Though, actually looking at the Index, they _do_ have Death Company as a keyword.
So if they're missing it, it isn't a 'copy and paste job.'
Without the Death Company keyword, they can't benefit from the Forlorn Fury Strategem.
I'd say almost a 0% chance of that since they've never had captains be able to take death masks. They couldn't even notice the crippling problems with the Baal predator when they copy/pasted the entry, which was a fairly low hanging fruit.
So I just noticed Death Company are missing the Death Company Keyword in the Codex. Same thing happened in the Index. Definitely a copy and paste job. Don't they have editors?
Well, in the index, there isn't much reason to give them a 'death company keyword'. The got Black Rage because it was in their ability list, and nothing interacted with DC as a keyword.
Though, actually looking at the Index, they _do_ have Death Company as a keyword.
So if they're missing it, it isn't a 'copy and paste job.'
Not talking about Faction Keywords. They just have the Infantry keyword. Here's my Index. Codex is the same. The Death Company Dreadnought has the Death Company keyword. Why wouldn't Death Company have their own keyword like every other unit does?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
casvalremdeikun wrote: Without the Death Company keyword, they can't benefit from the Forlorn Fury Strategem.
Yep. It says you need the Death Company and Infantry keywords.
Voss wrote:
So if they're missing it, it isn't a 'copy and paste job.'
Without the Death Company keyword, they can't benefit from the Forlorn Fury Strategem.
But they have it.
Is it an oversight that it isn't also on the next line? Yeah, I guess it is.
But it doesn't really matter- they're Death Company with the Death Company keyword and the Infantry Keyword so they can use the stratagem- nothing else (unless something no one has mentioned is hiding somewhere) uses the keyword in any way at all.
Nothing in the stratagems indicates it's differentiating between 'keyword' and 'faction keyword.' Or possibly unit name, for that matter.
In fact, keyword <unit name> seems to be a general irrelevance. <Infantry> matters because rules reference it. Same with <Jump Pack> and <Fly>. But unit name?
Though it also worth pointing out that the Terminator Ancient (on the facing page in the Index) and the Sanguinary Guard Ancient lack their 'unit names' on their data slates as well. They both have the Ancient keyword and Terminator/SG keywords respectively, but from a data/technical perspective, that isn't the same thing.
Faction Keywords and Keywords are identical past the list-building stage. Death Company have the <Death Company> keyword in the same manner that appropriately marked Obliterators are considered <Tzeentch> <Daemons> and can benefit from the Changeling aura and such.
Red__Thirst wrote: Ugh.. I really want to be able to put a Death Mask on my Captain again. Seriously. :(
I was hoping this would be added back in once the Codex hits. Grrr...
C'est la vie. Hopefully it's in there as an option.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Sorry bud.
Ugh. I mean, I'm not angry or butthurt over it, but it is annoying all the same.
Ashiraya wrote:
Looks like it's you who will have to take it easy now, I'm afraid...
I always do, hence my use of the words to close my posts. This is a hobby and something I enjoy. It's not serious. It's literal army men and playing pretend. What might you be inferring, may I ask?
I'd say almost a 0% chance of that since they've never had captains be able to take death masks. They couldn't even notice the crippling problems with the Baal predator when they copy/pasted the entry, which was a fairly low hanging fruit.
In fact, that is incorrect. Characters and Captains/others could indeed take Death Masks back in ye olden days of 3rd edition, and you had the option to use a Relic version of a Death Mask in the 7th edition codex as well. It was a cool little additional thing you could give your leader to make them unique, and I really enjoyed having it as an option back in the day, and in 7th as well; specifically the Crown Angelic relic. I typically ran it on my Captain and really enjoyed using it.
Like I said, it's not going to make me not enjoy the codex or not use it. I love Blood Angels, and their lore/fluff and play style. I'll keep playing them and enjoying them. It's just a very slight personal disappointment in not having the option available to the one Character I really enjoyed fielding with a Death Mask option in the past.
In fact, that is incorrect. Characters and Captains/others could indeed take Death Masks back in ye olden days of 3rd edition, and you had the option to use a Relic version of a Death Mask in the 7th edition codex as well. It was a cool little additional thing you could give your leader to make them unique, and I really enjoyed having it as an option back in the day, and in 7th as well; specifically the Crown Angelic relic. I typically ran it on my Captain and really enjoyed using it.
Like I said, it's not going to make me not enjoy the codex or not use it. I love Blood Angels, and their lore/fluff and play style. I'll keep playing them and enjoying them. It's just a very slight personal disappointment in not having the option available to the one Character I really enjoyed fielding with a Death Mask option in the past.
Sure, there was a death mask in the ancient 3rd edition book. I feel like to miss such an item you would have had to skip every edition in the last 11 years since its never been seen on any character again (beyond Dante). Morale didn't matter all for most editions so that's probably why I left it out of my memory.
If you want to run a character just run the sanguinary ancient. It has a death mask and is a character with basically same stats as a Captain.
In fact, that is incorrect. Characters and Captains/others could indeed take Death Masks back in ye olden days of 3rd edition, and you had the option to use a Relic version of a Death Mask in the 7th edition codex as well. It was a cool little additional thing you could give your leader to make them unique, and I really enjoyed having it as an option back in the day, and in 7th as well; specifically the Crown Angelic relic. I typically ran it on my Captain and really enjoyed using it.
Like I said, it's not going to make me not enjoy the codex or not use it. I love Blood Angels, and their lore/fluff and play style. I'll keep playing them and enjoying them. It's just a very slight personal disappointment in not having the option available to the one Character I really enjoyed fielding with a Death Mask option in the past.
Sure, there was a death mask in the ancient 3rd edition book. I feel like to miss such an item you would have had to skip every edition in the last 11 years since its never been seen on any character again (beyond Dante). Morale didn't matter all for most editions so that's probably why I left it out of my memory.
If you want to run a character just run the sanguinary ancient. It has a death mask and is a character with basically same stats as a Captain.
Oh I intend on running an ancient along side some Sanguinary Guard for sure! And he'll have a Death Mask along with the Guard as well (though I'm still unsure if the -1 leadership stacks or not if both the Ancient and the Guard are both within 3" of a target?).
I'll also still run my Captain as I always have. He's a fun character and one I enjoy putting on the tabletop for sure. I love the character options I have at my disposal, and am excited to get my hands on the new book this weekend and start using it.
Hehe, just realized thematically, when you give your HQ of choice the Black Rage, you are signing his death warrant by the end of the battle grimdark+1
Nightlord1987 wrote: Hehe, just realized thematically, when you give your HQ of choice the Black Rage, you are signing his death warrant by the end of the battle grimdark+1
All for tha greatur goood, sergeant Angle.
Are we not able to give Sanguinary Priests jump packs at all? Sorry been in and out of this thread. I was planning on running one with some SG but is this possible?
of course, you can always use the index for units that aren't in the codex. GW has specified this very clearly.
If our priests can't take JP's, that is very strange although, imo, they are much less important with the addition of the red thirst, as it acts as a even better priest buff.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Hehe, just realized thematically, when you give your HQ of choice the Black Rage, you are signing his death warrant by the end of the battle grimdark+1
Or bound in chains waiting for next battle to be unleashed.
bobafett012 wrote: of course, you can always use the index for units that aren't in the codex. GW has specified this very clearly.
If our priests can't take JP's, that is very strange although, imo, they are much less important with the addition of the red thirst, as it acts as a even better priest buff.
Oh so you can use the Index alongside the codex's? Thanks!
Can't wait to get the book in my hands and create a list, but I gotta say...
My two main armies have always been Tyranids and Blood Angels. Each and every Tyranid list I make feels fun, fluffy, and competitive. Each and every Blood Angel list I make feels undermanned and incapable of winning the game...almost as if I need another 300pts or so to even hold a candle to what I've been building with my bugs.
BA and DA badly need updated character models to replace the old two dimensional ones. Also, 6+ FnP for death company sucks. As someone already said, that our trick before anyone else had it. Should at least be 5+
bobafett012 wrote: of course, you can always use the index for units that aren't in the codex. GW has specified this very clearly.
If our priests can't take JP's, that is very strange although, imo, they are much less important with the addition of the red thirst, as it acts as a even better priest buff.
Oh so you can use the Index alongside the codex's? Thanks!
For how long, though, remains to be seen. I don't expect the index to be valid indefinitely, which is . JP Priests not making it into the codex is an even bigger pile of
Crimson Devil wrote:No they did not.
Ugh. Arbitrary, eminently kit-bashable wargear restrictions are becoming real old real fast.
sockwithaticket wrote: Ugh. Arbitrary, eminently kit-bashable wargear restrictions are becoming real old real fast.
Not arbitary. Do they have specific kit? Yes? In codex. No? Nope. Not giving new chapter house wannabe chance of selling kit they don't have that's in codex.
sockwithaticket wrote: Ugh. Arbitrary, eminently kit-bashable wargear restrictions are becoming real old real fast.
Not arbitary. Do they have specific kit? Yes? In codex. No? Nope. Not giving new chapter house wannabe chance of selling kit they don't have that's in codex.
It is completely and utterly arbitrary. Artificer armour Captain?
Sanguinary Guard/BA upgrade sprue torso and fancy SG or BA tactical legs as a starting point. Add bits and pieces from other GW kits to taste. No need to go 3rd party, it;s not inhibiting sales of GW product.
Jump Pack Sanguinary Priest? Use any jump pack from GW and stick it on the priest model or kitbash one from the various BA kits + upgrade sprue (for the Chalice), like people did for ages before the new plastic clampack Priest (and continued to do thereafter because clones of character models aren't for everyone, neither are robed Blood Angels).
There are a ton of other examples where they've allowed stuff that can only be kit bashed or requires a minor conversion and where the inverse is true, but I'm supposed to be working, so can't really go into it in detail right now.
sockwithaticket wrote: It is completely and utterly arbitrary. Artificer armour Captain?
Sanguinary Guard/BA upgrade sprue torso and fancy SG or BA tactical legs as a starting point. Add bits and pieces from other GW kits to taste. No need to go 3rd party, it;s not inhibiting sales of GW product.
Jump Pack Sanguinary Priest? Use any jump pack from GW and stick it on the priest model or kitbash one from the various BA kits + upgrade sprue (for the Chalice), like people did for ages before the new plastic clampack Priest (and continued to do thereafter because clones of character models aren't for everyone, neither are robed Blood Angels).
There are a ton of other examples where they've allowed stuff that can only be kit bashed or requires a minor conversion and where the inverse is true, but I'm supposed to be working, so can't really go into it in detail right now.
Is there specific kit for artificer armour captain?
GW only puts in codex entries with specific kit on sale. Not something you can kitbash. If they would support kitbash pretty much none of the entries deleted would have been deleted.
I see lots of word "kitbash" in your post. Precisely what GW wants to move away from. If it's not on sale in specific kit without kitbashing off the codex you go. Only notable exception is grand master on dreadknight.
sockwithaticket wrote: It is completely and utterly arbitrary. Artificer armour Captain?
Sanguinary Guard/BA upgrade sprue torso and fancy SG or BA tactical legs as a starting point. Add bits and pieces from other GW kits to taste. No need to go 3rd party, it;s not inhibiting sales of GW product.
Jump Pack Sanguinary Priest? Use any jump pack from GW and stick it on the priest model or kitbash one from the various BA kits + upgrade sprue (for the Chalice), like people did for ages before the new plastic clampack Priest (and continued to do thereafter because clones of character models aren't for everyone, neither are robed Blood Angels).
There are a ton of other examples where they've allowed stuff that can only be kit bashed or requires a minor conversion and where the inverse is true, but I'm supposed to be working, so can't really go into it in detail right now.
Is there specific kit for artificer armour captain?
GW only puts in codex entries with specific kit on sale. Not something you can kitbash. If they would support kitbash pretty much none of the entries deleted would have been deleted.
I see lots of word "kitbash" in your post. Precisely what GW wants to move away from. If it's not on sale in specific kit without kitbashing off the codex you go. Only notable exception is grand master on dreadknight.
Off the top of my head, a few other things you have to kitbash or go to Forgeworld for:
Assault Cannon Razorback
Cataphract Armoured Terminator Captain with anything other than Combi-Melta and Chainfist.
Any Librarian with a sword (can only buy plastic with staff or resin with axe from GW now)
Captain with jump pack and anything other than an axe (can still buy the failcast Lord Executioner)
Again, that's just off the top of my head.
What is the Chalice on the upgrade sprue for other than to kitbash a Priest? In terms of wargear it's the only model type it would fit. It's a random thing for any other type of marine to be holding in a decorative/non-wargear capacity.
warboss wrote:Did the Blood Angels regular captains retain their artificer armor to distinguish them from vanilla chapter versions
Crimson Devil wrote:No they did not.
That's sucks. It's not surprising given the other changes with this edition but it still sucks. I thought that was a nice rules tie in with the fluff of Blood Angels frequently personally embellishing their equipment and taking pride in its craftsmanship.
Lucifer Engines are a joke. I really like the Dex, but the trifecta of fail is Dante, 
. 