Voidwraith wrote: FWIW, the guys at Frontlinegaming, who are tournament minded folks, have seen the codex and say BA players will be happy. I'm unsure how exactly to take that, but I'm overall optimistic.
Yeah, but their Chapter Approved review (which they have, given they are part of GWs playtesters specifically brought in to cover the tournament crowd for which GW has little to no in-house expertise) also says the Dakka Dakka Stratagem for Orks is the bee’s knees.
Back in their Space Marine Codex review, which again they had a hand in playtesting, they were pretty excited about how crushingly good White Scars are (which is a cc-focussed Chapter Tactic to boot).
FLG’s opinion means nothing to me. In fact, I’d have an easier time believing the opposite of what they say; they sang the praises of index BA. Simply ridiculous.
Voidwraith wrote: FWIW, the guys at Frontlinegaming, who are tournament minded folks, have seen the codex and say BA players will be happy. I'm unsure how exactly to take that, but I'm overall optimistic.
I love what those guys do for the community, don't get me wrong, but they have been hit or miss especially when concerning Blood Angels. I've talked to some people that have seen the dex. We'll be back to being the best close combat marine army and have a unique play style which I'm excited for.
I really thought we would see a Blood Angels article on the community page today. Guess it isn't happening. :(
Voidwraith wrote: FWIW, the guys at Frontlinegaming, who are tournament minded folks, have seen the codex and say BA players will be happy. I'm unsure how exactly to take that, but I'm overall optimistic.
Yeah, those guys are idiots. From their review of 8th and on they are nothing but GW sycophants. I like a lot of what GW has been doing with 8th BUT it's certainly not perfect in any way, shape, or form and it's ok to say that, but those guys's business is totally based on GW sales so of course they will say nothing but positives which just makes them lack any credibility in my opinion.
But back to the blood angels topic, I really think they need some heavy duty CC help in the form of rules. From decent of angels, their CT, and red thirst, and some changes to units wargear, prices, and maybe even stats.
I don't know if this has been said or not, but on a positive note, in the leaked chapter approved, inferno pistols, and hand flamers came way down in price. 20 to 11, and 8 to 3. So i think with that we can expect angelus boltguns and encarmine weapons to come way down too which is big. Hopefully Blood Talons are fixed to actually do something better or different than Fists too...
You’ll now be able to escort your flyers into battle alongside the Stormhawk Interceptor, transport scouts into the heart of battle aboard Land Speeder Storms, or unleash the might of ancient technologies from the Horus Heresy, like the Contemptor Dreadnought as well as Cataphractii and Tartaros pattern Terminators.
Of course I'm sure one of you will tell me I'm wrong.
Power Armoured bodys suck at meele! Assault Marines can't assault things and kill them in one turn! Plasma spam makes Terminators suck ass! Yadda yadda!
Elbows wrote: So, maybe I missed it...what is the Chapter Trait? Is it just the Red Thirst?
Red Thirst is a special rule, like Disgusting Resilient (That basically everything will have, I assume, barring vehicles and flyers and maybe thinks like Centurions). It is not their Chapter Trait.
Elbows wrote: So, maybe I missed it...what is the Chapter Trait? Is it just the Red Thirst?
Red Thirst is a special rule, like Disgusting Resilient (That basically everything will have, I assume, barring vehicles and flyers and maybe thinks like Centurions). It is not their Chapter Trait.
The article says:
"The Red Thirst gives all Blood Angels units +1 to wound when they charge, are charged or make a Heroic Intervention." (emphasis added)
Obviously that could be wrong, but as written it suggests that Blood Angels tanks are unusually good at running people over too.
What would actually be pretty cool is if the Blood Angels codex had a different Chapter Trait for the Blood Angels themselves, and then a couple listed for their successor chapters.
Elbows wrote: So, maybe I missed it...what is the Chapter Trait? Is it just the Red Thirst?
Red Thirst is a special rule, like Disgusting Resilient (That basically everything will have, I assume, barring vehicles and flyers and maybe thinks like Centurions). It is not their Chapter Trait.
The article says:
"The Red Thirst gives all Blood Angels units +1 to wound when they charge, are charged or make a Heroic Intervention." (emphasis added)
Obviously that could be wrong, but as written it suggests that Blood Angels tanks are unusually good at running people over too.
It will give "All blood angels units" that have that rule. I doubt Tanks and Flyers will have that rule. Disgusting Resilient gives too "All Death Guard Units a +5 FNP". But not every Death Guard unit has that rule. Of course I can be totally wrong and as you said, Blood Angels Tanks are good at rolling people over
Elbows wrote: So, did they not leake the Chapter Trait?
What would actually be pretty cool is if the Blood Angels codex had a different Chapter Trait for the Blood Angels themselves, and then a couple listed for their successor chapters.
They don't get a "Chapter Trait" in the sense you seem to be wanting. They have special rules. This is the army-wide one:
Spoiler:
Black Rage is a separate ability that we haven't seen yet, exactly, but it gets called out 2 times.
Here
You’ll now be able to escort your flyers into battle alongside the Stormhawk Interceptor, transport scouts into the heart of battle aboard Land Speeder Storms, or unleash the might of ancient technologies from the Horus Heresy, like the Contemptor Dreadnought as well as Cataphractii and Tartaros pattern Terminators.
If BA keep stealing all the unique Codex SM stuff, can we at least get heavy flamers in tactical squads and melta/plasma in assault squads in return?
You’ll now be able to escort your flyers into battle alongside the Stormhawk Interceptor, transport scouts into the heart of battle aboard Land Speeder Storms, or unleash the might of ancient technologies from the Horus Heresy, like the Contemptor Dreadnought as well as Cataphractii and Tartaros pattern Terminators.
If BA keep stealing all the unique Codex SM stuff, can we at least get heavy flamers in tactical squads and melta/plasma in assault squads in return?
You’ll now be able to escort your flyers into battle alongside the Stormhawk Interceptor, transport scouts into the heart of battle aboard Land Speeder Storms, or unleash the might of ancient technologies from the Horus Heresy, like the Contemptor Dreadnought as well as Cataphractii and Tartaros pattern Terminators.
If BA keep stealing all the unique Codex SM stuff, can we at least get heavy flamers in tactical squads and melta/plasma in assault squads in return?
You’ll now be able to escort your flyers into battle alongside the Stormhawk Interceptor, transport scouts into the heart of battle aboard Land Speeder Storms, or unleash the might of ancient technologies from the Horus Heresy, like the Contemptor Dreadnought as well as Cataphractii and Tartaros pattern Terminators.
If BA keep stealing all the unique Codex SM stuff, can we at least get heavy flamers in tactical squads and melta/plasma in assault squads in return?
Keep stealing?This was the debt for ripping off the stormravens and "ironclad" dredanoughts.
It is the BA that are one step back of a vanila SM.
Elbows wrote: So, did they not leak the Chapter Trait?
What would actually be pretty cool is if the Blood Angels codex had a different Chapter Trait for the Blood Angels themselves, and then a couple listed for their successor chapters.
Pretty sure it is the chapter trait, even if it isn't explicitly labelled that anywhere.
But the preview article also goes on to say that successors use Red Thirst and the other BA rules as well.
It certainly ranks up well against other chapter traits. Usable on attack and defense is good, and adjusting the S vs T comparison is a big deal.
From the shown stratagem, I'd guess that Black Rage is a 6++ save, like disgustingly resilient. Maybe also a combat bonus of some sort.
Red Thirst likely is the chapter trait I would think; inexorable advance for Death Guard isn’t listed as “legion trait”; it’s the only one in the book. Inexorable advance does list battle forged as a prerequisite though, which Red Thirst doesn’t seem to.
The Red Thirst isn’t necessarily the flaw. Cawl said he left some stuff in Big E intended to be there. No Death Company Primaris is telling for “flaw removed”.
Galas wrote: The Black Rage wasn't the "Flaw" of the Blood Angels, it was a product of Sanguinius Death.
The Red Thirst is the blood angel's geneseed flaw.
Even sanguinius thinks so, but! What if the emperor WANTED them to have the flaw dum dum duuuuum.
...so what did Cawl remove and what did the Emperor intend to be there. We know Sanguinius viewed it as a flaw and was ashamed of it. The Emperor may have put it there intentionally. 10,000 years have gone by and the guy who’s the definitive word on it is a skeleton in a chair. I’m not saying I disagree with you, but I’d say Red Thirst being army wide and DC strat not applying to named characters and Primaris is telling of GWs current stance.
Voidwraith wrote: FWIW, the guys at Frontlinegaming, who are tournament minded folks, have seen the codex and say BA players will be happy. I'm unsure how exactly to take that, but I'm overall optimistic.
Yeah, those guys are idiots. From their review of 8th and on they are nothing but GW sycophants. I like a lot of what GW has been doing with 8th BUT it's certainly not perfect in any way, shape, or form and it's ok to say that, but those guys's business is totally based on GW sales so of course they will say nothing but positives which just makes them lack any credibility in my opinion.
But back to the blood angels topic, I really think they need some heavy duty CC help in the form of rules. From decent of angels, their CT, and red thirst, and some changes to units wargear, prices, and maybe even stats.
I don't know if this has been said or not, but on a positive note, in the leaked chapter approved, inferno pistols, and hand flamers came way down in price. 20 to 11, and 8 to 3. So i think with that we can expect angelus boltguns and encarmine weapons to come way down too which is big. Hopefully Blood Talons are fixed to actually do something better or different than Fists too...
The Frontline gaming guys managed to turn their hobby Into their livelihood. If only we could all be such idiots...
From what I've seen in the fluff, Cawl removed the *bad* parts (i.e. Black Rage). They still get red thirst, and cosmetic things are unchanged (hence why there are still coal-black Salamander primaris)
Every day more will be revealed, spurring disappointment every passing day, but the book won’t be completely written off until Saturday, 12 days from now, when it’s flicked through in roughly 6 minutes and deemed an unholy dumpster fire. Or a joke from the laughing god. Either way; it won’t take long. It’s lookig very positive for the average BA player so far though!
I really am expecting to see the Black Rage be more than 6+ Ignore Wounds and an additional attack on the charge. It costs a command point to trigger it in a unit. I am expecting it to be 6+ Ignore Wounds and Pile In Twice (the Khorne Berserker mechanic).
casvalremdeikun wrote: I really am expecting to see the Black Rage be more than 6+ Ignore Wounds and an additional attack on the charge. It costs a command point to trigger it in a unit. I am expecting it to be 6+ Ignore Wounds and Pile In Twice (the Khorne Berserker mechanic).
It costs a Command Point while you write up your army list to be triggered in a hero.
Not "in a unit".
See? Not triggered "in a unit". It lets you have Death Company Chaplains, Lieutenants, or Captains(except for Primaris).
casvalremdeikun wrote: I really am expecting to see the Black Rage be more than 6+ Ignore Wounds and an additional attack on the charge. It costs a command point to trigger it in a unit. I am expecting it to be 6+ Ignore Wounds and Pile In Twice (the Khorne Berserker mechanic).
It cost a CP to give it to a character. DC and Lemartes will likely get it as standard. I agree it is probably the same as in the Index. If it was better then it likely wouldn't stack to a 5+ with "Gift of Foresight".
Is it ground-breaking? Probably not but +1A and 6+FNP is not bad, especially if the rumoured double-attack is real. Imagine a Captain with an extra attack, attacking twice with a Thunder Hammer that does 4 points of damage (relic) and wounds everything in the game that is not T8 on a 2+.
It is shame that the Primaris again gets segregated and don't get to share a lot of the stuff. I don't understand why GW insists on keeping them bland and flavourless. Death Company Reivers would have looked awesome and been quite thematic.
Is it ground-breaking? Probably not but +1A and 6+FNP is not bad
Black rage on 1 wound marine is a trash as it saves damage. So if a 2 damage comes up - you need wo 6+ to save it.
It's horrible.
Basicly it works against just small fire arms, and even then - only 6+
It's getting better on dreadnought though
casvalremdeikun wrote: I really am expecting to see the Black Rage be more than 6+ Ignore Wounds and an additional attack on the charge. It costs a command point to trigger it in a unit. I am expecting it to be 6+ Ignore Wounds and Pile In Twice (the Khorne Berserker mechanic).
It costs a Command Point while you write up your army list to be triggered in a hero.
Not "in a unit".
See? Not triggered "in a unit". It lets you have Death Company Chaplains, Lieutenants, or Captains(except for Primaris).
Sorry, triggered wasn't the right word. But turning a character into Death Company would be incredibly potent if effectively doubles their attacks. Especially on a Captain sporting a 4++.
Crimson wrote: It is shame that the Primaris again gets segregated and don't get to share a lot of the stuff. I don't understand why GW insists on keeping them bland and flavourless. Death Company Reivers would have looked awesome and been quite thematic.
I'm not sure what you mean. Primaris aren't segregated, they have the same flavor as the rest of the chapter. That they didn't do a primaris version of a very specific unit (that usually varies from overpriced to ineffective) doesn't mean they're bland and flavorless.
And really death company models aren't particularly unique looking. If you want some black armored Primmies, you can just paint that.
I suspect space wolves will get ridiculous primaris mutants, however. Holding off on the special snowflake chapter suggests more than just a churn and burn codex to get it done.
Crimson wrote: It is shame that the Primaris again gets segregated and don't get to share a lot of the stuff. I don't understand why GW insists on keeping them bland and flavourless. Death Company Reivers would have looked awesome and been quite thematic.
I'm not sure what you mean. Primaris aren't segregated, they have the same flavor as the rest of the chapter. That they didn't do a primaris version of a very specific unit (that usually varies from overpriced to ineffective) doesn't mean they're bland and flavorless.
And really death company models aren't particularly unique looking. If you want some black armored Primmies, you can just paint that.
I suspect space wolves will get ridiculous primaris mutants, however. Holding off on the special snowflake chapter suggests more than just a churn and burn codex to get it done.
I think you need to take a look at the blood angel model range if you think Primaris looks anything similar. Just painting Primaris black will leave out a massive amount of extra detail the Death Company models have.
Bremon wrote: Every day more will be revealed, spurring disappointment every passing day, but the book won’t be completely written off until Saturday, 12 days from now, when it’s flicked through in roughly 6 minutes and deemed an unholy dumpster fire. Or a joke from the laughing god. Either way; it won’t take long. It’s lookig very positive for the average BA player so far though!
I've been thinking of finally getting into a marine list. I keep wanting to do lots of infantry with jump packs, hitting things... from the sounds of it, Blood Angels sound like a good fit.
Bremon wrote: Every day more will be revealed, spurring disappointment every passing day, but the book won’t be completely written off until Saturday, 12 days from now, when it’s flicked through in roughly 6 minutes and deemed an unholy dumpster fire. Or a joke from the laughing god. Either way; it won’t take long. It’s lookig very positive for the average BA player so far though!
I've been thinking of finally getting into a marine list. I keep wanting to do lots of infantry with jump packs, hitting things... from the sounds of it, Blood Angels sound like a good fit.
Jump pack heavy armies, that's what I play, are not very good currently. They either don't hit hard enough or too expensive which leads to not enough bodies, plus they can't reliably get into CC off DS. Another major issue, is that ASMs are almost totally worthless at the moment. They cost the same as Khorne berzerkers, but don't score, and don't compare stats/rules wise. they get the JP and that's it. the loss of the attack hurt pretty badly.
The red thirst is pretty good, and helps with the not hitting hard enough part IF you can get into CC, which is unlikely off DS currently. Even with Lemartes re-roll your only about 50/50 or less. Maybe we'll get a decent of angels rule back that can somehow help get us into CC more reliably. If i Drop down with 3 squads, I need to be able to at least get 2 of them in, not 1, because assault squads standing out in the open are dead assault squads.
It does look like we are getting some pretty hefty points cuts, specially on some of our unique wargear like inferno pistols and hand flamers, now hopefully we also get the angelus boltguns and encarmine weapon cost reductions because currently they are way over priced and this is what leads to so few of bodies.
I do like that we're getting the flyers from the space marine book, a pair of those is going to be sweet with a bunch of jump packers!
We'll see, i'm still very wary because it's been a few editions now since JPBA were any good, and I have no faith in GW to make them better.
I think you need to take a look at the blood angel model range if you think Primaris looks anything similar. Just painting Primaris black will leave out a massive amount of extra detail the Death Company models have.
The X's and doo-dads? Pass. I take most of those off my BA anyway. I use the DC models primarily as Vets and Sergeants, largely for the bolters and shoulders. The other smidgens of extra detail make little appreciable difference. It's mostly for the shoulder pads and one or two extras that suggest the model is slightly more important than the rest. The BA specific sprue takes care of that nicely.
But then I have very little tolerance for the busy look of a lot of GW models, and particularly for marines prefer a clean and simple aesthetic. I just happen to like the color scheme and the uplifted savages theme. The vampires and wangst I actively ignore.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I really am expecting to see the Black Rage be more than 6+ Ignore Wounds and an additional attack on the charge. It costs a command point to trigger it in a unit. I am expecting it to be 6+ Ignore Wounds and Pile In Twice (the Khorne Berserker mechanic).
They don’t pile in twice sadly. There might be a strat for it, but the unit doesn’t have it.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I really am expecting to see the Black Rage be more than 6+ Ignore Wounds and an additional attack on the charge. It costs a command point to trigger it in a unit. I am expecting it to be 6+ Ignore Wounds and Pile In Twice (the Khorne Berserker mechanic).
They don’t pile in twice sadly. There might be a strat for it, but the unit doesn’t have it.
Maybe you heard something - will there be something different for successor chapters? I mean traits/relics/stratagems?
It was so vague in article whether there be some rules for successors or not :|
casvalremdeikun wrote: I really am expecting to see the Black Rage be more than 6+ Ignore Wounds and an additional attack on the charge. It costs a command point to trigger it in a unit. I am expecting it to be 6+ Ignore Wounds and Pile In Twice (the Khorne Berserker mechanic).
They don’t pile in twice sadly. There might be a strat for it, but the unit doesn’t have it.
Maybe you heard something - will there be something different for successor chapters? I mean traits/relics/stratagems?
It was so vague in article whether there be some rules for successors or not :|
I haven’t heard one way or the other. Details I have are pretty sparse at the moment. Hopefully I’ll get a proper look soon.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I really am expecting to see the Black Rage be more than 6+ Ignore Wounds and an additional attack on the charge. It costs a command point to trigger it in a unit. I am expecting it to be 6+ Ignore Wounds and Pile In Twice (the Khorne Berserker mechanic).
They don’t pile in twice sadly. There might be a strat for it, but the unit doesn’t have it.
Maybe you heard something - will there be something different for successor chapters? I mean traits/relics/stratagems?
It was so vague in article whether there be some rules for successors or not :|
Sounds like no:
All Blood Angels successors use the Red Thirst and other Blood Angels rules too – as if Gabriel Seth needed to get even deadlier…
Obviously Seth will have his own unique character rules, but it sounds like a Kantor and Crimson Fist situation to me, i.e. same rules as their Iron Warrior papas.
Spoiler:
Yes, yes, Imperial Fists. Same thing
Jokes aside, point is, if they're getting all their parent rules, they're unlikely to get their own rules on top.
bobafett012 wrote: We'll see, i'm still very wary because it's been a few editions now since JPBA were any good, and I have no faith in GW to make them better.
Thanks for the run-down, much appreciated. Even if jump pack Blood Angels aren't competitive, if they're the best iteration of (human) jump pack assault I might still go for it... there's something about flying around hitting things that I find so very appealing.
So far this all looks amazing, +1 to wound in the first round of combat regardless of a who charged (basically an even better Furious Charge) is awesome, especially combined with the Lieutenant's reroll to wound.
Strategems look great too, loving the Death Visions one, and the Artisan of War relic is amazing (four damage thunder hammer anyone?)
That warlord trait that gives a weapon +1 to the dmg. Would that give the Boltstorm Guantlet +1 dmg to both the fist and pistol, as they both come under the one weapon? If so, that'd make the Gravis Captain pretty beast even in shooting
I'm pleased to see I was right in my presumption that the BA in 8th would take a page from the Horus Heresy Blood Angel rules. Such an elegant solution, and far more useful, especially being that it works on more than just the charge now.
My new Jump Pack Captain with a (relic?) Death Mask, Inferno Pistol, & Thunder Hammer just jumped to the top of my painting queue.
Give him Death Visions of Sanguinius, and Artisan of War for the Thunder Hammer, Profit.
It's going to be a fun codex. I'm looking forward to it anyway.
Just saw the post on the GW site, and I have to say it looks solid. I would think BA are going to turn into a formidable army with what they put up on the site.
Karthicus wrote: Just saw the post on the GW site, and I have to say it looks solid. I would think BA are going to turn into a formidable army with what they put up on the site.
Now to see what Martel says....
garbage. as you know every marine squad can only ever charge 10 guardsmen equivalent models, so in order to be efficient a space marine assault unit will be garbage tier unless they are equal or less points than 10 guardsmen.
Given it says "before moving" not instead of moving, but never says not to move the unit after setting them up, would this technically mean you can then move them after setting them up (I do not believe for a second that it is intended if so)? If so, that is hilarious.
Given it says "before moving" not instead of moving, but never says not to move the unit after setting them up, would this technically mean you can then move them after setting them up (I do not believe for a second that it is intended if so)? If so, that is hilarious.
It says to set them up at the end of the phase, which as we know means you can't move any further, as there's no time to - the phase is ended
Given it says "before moving" not instead of moving, but never says not to move the unit after setting them up, would this technically mean you can then move them after setting them up (I do not believe for a second that it is intended if so)? If so, that is hilarious.
It says you redeploy them at the end of the phase, pretty sure that would mean they cannot then move as their chance to move has passed once the end of the phase has come. It literally just lets you re-deploy them anywhere more than 9" from an enemy unit just as if they Deep Striked basically.
The problem with wanting that is it breaks the game - althought I'm sure it's something we'll start to see more of as 8th edition runs full speed down the path 7th had worn in.
Elbows wrote: The problem with wanting that is it breaks the game - althought I'm sure it's something we'll start to see more of as 8th edition runs full speed down the path 7th had worn in.
Yeah, that is true. I am more looking for Rerolls on charges. Nothing much more than that.
Elbows wrote: The problem with wanting that is it breaks the game - althought I'm sure it's something we'll start to see more of as 8th edition runs full speed down the path 7th had worn in.
Yeah, that is true. I am more looking for Rerolls on charges. Nothing much more than that.
Same. My whole concern is that we'll get a bunch of neat combat buffs that end up irrelevant because we can't close the distance. I am so discouraged by the performance of CC-oriented Terminators of any variety because they're just not reliable.
Elbows wrote: The problem with wanting that is it breaks the game - althought I'm sure it's something we'll start to see more of as 8th edition runs full speed down the path 7th had worn in.
I don’t see how it breaks the game any harder than things that can deepstrike and do massive shooting damage on arrival. From 24” away. No charge roll required. And doesn’t care about bubble wrap less than 14” deep. And shoots twice. Like slaanesh obliterators (a combo coming out of the second book of the edition). But sure; screw over potentially potent melee because why not?
The problem of Warhammer40k is that GW values meele as it values shooting, when shooting has a ton of in-build advantages over meele.
Meele should be just cheaper or be more deadly/powerfull, just like on Infinity the max accuracy for a shooting model is 15, but for a meele model is 30.
Galas wrote: The problem of Warhammer40k is that GW values meele as it values shooting, when shooting has a ton of in-build advantages over meele.
Meele should be just cheaper or be more deadly/powerfull, just like on Infinity the max accuracy for a shooting model is 15, but for a meele model is 30.
The fixes to transports actually helped, but everyone is used to playing gunline for the most part, so they continue to do so. I'm hoping that Tyranids will change the line of thought eventually, and with Daemons soon on the way people might be using more melee to get the opponent first before they can get them.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I really wish there was some sort of rule that let our deep striking units get in easier. It is what we do!
This is literally what i've been saying all along, and really since 8th dropped. There is no reliable way, even really with a re-roll, for units to get into CC, and for units like DC, VV, ASMs, SG, etc, they need to be in CC or they die. We need some sort of mechanic that gives us a better chance of charging into CC, certainly from DS, because currently if you drop 3 squads in, only 1 will make it into CC while the other 2 die to weight of fire.
Elbows wrote: The problem with wanting that is it breaks the game - althought I'm sure it's something we'll start to see more of as 8th edition runs full speed down the path 7th had worn in.
This is absolutely %100 false. Shooting is so much more powerful than CC in this game it's not even a comparison. Shooting has overshadowed CC for many editions now, probably since at least 5th edition. There is so many mechanics that benefit shooting now, like falling back out of CC, loss of attack on the charge, loss of attack from 2x CCW or pistol/CCW, overwatch, twin link weapons. Even things like armor modifiers and morale tests help shooting more than CC. All this adds up to making it more difficult for CC armies to compete, specially marine CC armies. Sure, CC got a few things, but shooting got more and they were already ahead of CC by a good margin, so they need an edge to compete.
Should pure melee armies be able to beat an army predominately built on shooting though? I mean even the armies that have the most excuses to be melee only, Daemons and Nids, have fire support units to help them get in. There's a reason for that, almost as if relying on pure melee in an environment where other people have guns is a bad idea.
If you build a pure melee army I hate to tell you, but you shouldn't be surprised that it's having a hard time making it into combat without support. Saying that is like a player complaining they brought no anti tank and then got rolled by an IG tank line, or a player brought no way to shut down pyskers then got torn apart in the psyker phase. Even pure shooting armies need something to survive and deal with melee, that's why screens and countercharge things pop up so much, because without it shooting armies would get shut down by assault.
No one strategy in this game should ever be 100% reliable, be it pure shooting, pure assault, pure pyskers, etc. A fine balance should need to be struck with an army if you want it going at max ability. I know I'm going to get some flak for that but I'm always confused why people try to build a pure 100% assault army and yet somehow expect it to make it across the table unmolested and the opponent shouldn't be able to shoot them on the way in.
Melee as it stands will always be a more specialized and situational thing, unless you horrifically nerf shooting into the ground so much certain armies cannot even function, it will always be this way. Assault works best when you've either got shenanigans to get them in or use them as a special part to breakthrough an enemy line, and I think that's a good thing. You shouldn't be able to just line up a bunch of assault units on one side of the board, mindlessly charge across the table, and get a win unless you're just stupid lucky. That'd be like a guard player sitting there all game without moving to gunline being surprised that he keeps losing the objective game (and yes I know the IG codex is strong enough to win this way by tabling right now, I'm talking about in an ideal world where the balance is more fine tuned) Shooting will always be more powerful because logically there are very few situations where a sword beats a gun, even in the far future. Not even 40k can get around that. The main issue is screen units are so available and effective right now. If you go into the tactics section and other areas you'll notice a lot of people actually have a hard time shutting down assault armies without something like guardsmen or cultists to take the assault for them. This hints more to a codex balance issue than assault in and of itself being bad. Other than the random charge distance assault is actually pretty nasty right now, it's just that the most powerful codexes in the game just so happen to also have cheap access to good screens so they have a natural counter to it.
If static gunlines are viable then so too should bumrush assault armies be. Though personally I think both extremes should be relatively weak and more mixing should be necessary to win but the current scenario where gunlines can do basically whatever they want as long as they have cheap chaff available but "assault" armies are required to really be mostly shooting is not the ideal.
Arachnofiend wrote: If static gunlines are viable then so too should bumrush assault armies be. Though personally I think both extremes should be relatively weak and more mixing should be necessary to win but the current scenario where gunlines can do basically whatever they want as long as they have cheap chaff available but "assault" armies are required to really be mostly shooting is not the ideal.
I agree, which is why I put that gunline play needs to be nerfed as well. I'm not saying that pure shooting should win at all times. There are absolutely balance issues that need to be addressed right now.
I just don't think pure melee should be seen as a viable tactic either.
Arachnofiend wrote: If static gunlines are viable then so too should bumrush assault armies be. Though personally I think both extremes should be relatively weak and more mixing should be necessary to win but the current scenario where gunlines can do basically whatever they want as long as they have cheap chaff available but "assault" armies are required to really be mostly shooting is not the ideal.
Yeah I agree. I feel like melee has always been an issue in 40k. The problem is, shooting can hit a melee army every turn, while melee has to charge across the board for several turns before it starts hurting ranged units. So the only way to balance that is to either make the melee units lightning fast to cause shooting armies to become irrelevant or have them do insane amounts of dmg and turn it into a, "if melee units make it into melee, GG."
It seems like a pretty hard thing to balance, and I wouldn't be too sure as to how you'd balance that. They've allowed ranged units to retreat from melee but aren't able to shoot, which is nice, except for if your whole line gets charged, and then you can pretty much call it, as the cycle of retreating and then being charged ensues. But if they could just keep shooting anyway then melee armies would be doing so much less than shooting armies still.
What's good about a melee marine army is that things like Intercessors can be given auto bolters, so they'll be able to charge at the enemy while still being able to shoot their guns and when they hit melee they're getting quite a lot of attacks (with the right heroes) and will be wounding things easier thanks to our tactic, which is great. Or chucking dudes in rhinos as well. I can actually see BAngels being a pretty good melee army because they have the shooting to back them up. But it sucks that full melee armies struggle, and BAngels will probably struggle to hit melee too really
Looking at the what's out now, I feel that outside of a few units, Blood Angels are a good shooting army because they have melee to back them up. Marine vs marine, I'm being hit on 3's and wounded on 4's. Meanwhile I'm hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's. Even bikes are being wounded on threes by basic infantry. Every battle squad and tac squad can provide it's own counter charge.
This of course assumes that Sanguinary Priests stay the same.
Mmmpi wrote: Looking at the what's out now, I feel that outside of a few units, Blood Angels are a good shooting army because they have melee to back them up. Marine vs marine, I'm being hit on 3's and wounded on 4's. Meanwhile I'm hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's. Even bikes are being wounded on threes by basic infantry. Every battle squad and tac squad can provide it's own counter charge.
This of course assumes that Sanguinary Priests stay the same.
Other marine armies have Bobby G so there won't be any tactical squads counter charging :p
I'm still wondering if Blood Angels are getting a detachment bonus like Death Guard have. Not just The Red Thirst on models with the rule but units in a Blood Angels detachment gain X rule. That could still be where the rumored +1" Charge and Advance rule is.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Should pure melee armies be able to beat an army predominately built on shooting though? I mean even the armies that have the most excuses to be melee only, Daemons and Nids, have fire support units to help them get in. There's a reason for that, almost as if relying on pure melee in an environment where other people have guns is a bad idea.
If you build a pure melee army I hate to tell you, but you shouldn't be surprised that it's having a hard time making it into combat without support. Saying that is like a player complaining they brought no anti tank and then got rolled by an IG tank line, or a player brought no way to shut down pyskers then got torn apart in the psyker phase. Even pure shooting armies need something to survive and deal with melee, that's why screens and countercharge things pop up so much, because without it shooting armies would get shut down by assault.
No one strategy in this game should ever be 100% reliable, be it pure shooting, pure assault, pure pyskers, etc. A fine balance should need to be struck with an army if you want it going at max ability. I know I'm going to get some flak for that but I'm always confused why people try to build a pure 100% assault army and yet somehow expect it to make it across the table unmolested and the opponent shouldn't be able to shoot them on the way in.
This. You can'y expect your units to drop in, make an assault, and wipe out an opposing unit without any consequences.It SHOULD be somewhat difficult to get into close combat. The big issues with gunline armies is the whole you go, I go turn sequence. If they changed the game over to alternate unit activations it would remove the whole alpha strike concept altogether. With Shadespire and the new Necromunda they are definitely testing this mechanic. I wouldn't be surprised to see it make it into Chapter Approved next year.
As to getting our units into close combat, I don't have a hard time currently. Bring stuff in from a Storm Raven, Land Raider, or if you don't want to dump so many points a Rhino. For Jump Pack troops just drop them into or behind a piece of LOS blocking terrain on the first turn. The 12" move gets them where they need to go. If you are in terrain, you are rocking a 2+ save. It's difficult sometimes, but not impossible.
So the solution to overpowered shooting isn’t buffing melee, because that would be overpowered? If you buff melee, shooting remains viable, and then mixed/TAC lists become viable too. “Shooting needs to be nerfed”? A melee buff IS a shooting nerf.
Why should melee units drop in and die after a turn when shooting units can fire at will. That’s without taking bubblewrap and the >9” minimum distance into account.
Your solution to getting to melee is spending points on rhinos? When the solution to making shooting more viable is to just spend more points on shooting units? Sounds questionable.
The way to balance shooting vs melee is the same way real balance is achieved in games like StarCraft - with the map/terrain. Play on good tables and melee is quite strong, always has been.
Bremon wrote: So the solution to overpowered shooting isn’t buffing melee, because that would be overpowered? If you buff melee, shooting remains viable, and then mixed/TAC lists become viable too. “Shooting needs to be nerfed”? A melee buff IS a shooting nerf.
Why should melee units drop in and die after a turn when shooting units can fire at will. That’s without taking bubblewrap and the >9” minimum distance into account.
Your solution to getting to melee is spending points on rhinos? When the solution to making shooting more viable is to just spend more points on shooting units? Sounds questionable.
Eh, yes and no. While a buff to melee is certainly an indirect nerf to shooting, buffing melee and nerfing shooting would accomplish it in two different ways. The former isn't really what this game needs, as it will only lead to more games being decided by turn two or three or, worse, by who goes first. A nerf to shooting would tone down the rate at which things die - a major issue for melee armies. This would help melee armies get to grips with shooting armies without exacerbating a few of the issues already apparent in this edition. Such as alpha strike.
the biggest problem with melee in the game at current is the other side can just walk away for the rest of their army to mow you down.
if disengage required a roll and wasnt automatic it would make melee much more effective. For now tho they lose a unit and if you lucky and engage other units with the 3" consolidate/follow up for winning then they just walk away and shoot all your melee guys down....
Seen it in alot of games now...thats what mainly makes melee armies crap now.
chaos45 wrote: the biggest problem with melee in the game at current is the other side can just walk away for the rest of their army to mow you down.
if disengage required a roll and wasnt automatic it would make melee much more effective. For now tho they lose a unit and if you lucky and engage other units with the 3" consolidate/follow up for winning then they just walk away and shoot all your melee guys down....
Seen it in alot of games now...thats what mainly makes melee armies crap now.
I play Grey Knights and Custodes. People walking away from me isn't the problem. It's getting to them and sometimes getting shot to bits after killing them. CQC is really deadly though and once you connect with something there isn't usually much to walk away with.
the base problem is, the bangles' core units - deep striking melee elite infantry with an emphasis on flamer weapons - is just the antithesis of what's effective in general in 8th edition.
They're going to need a lot of bespoke goodies to be usable. Given the resounding success of Grey Knights, I'm not optimistic.
At the end of the day it is a matter of what the designers want the game to be. In my opinion it should be viable to be a melee army, if the game designers integrate melee armies into their game. Sure, there are the people that say that shooting is far superior and of course melee armies should be mowed down at sight. But what would be the reason to play a melee oriented army then? Shall I spend my bucks and time to buy, build and paint such a faction just to get shot to bits?
On topic: I hope they release some more info soon. Can't wait to see more of the big picture how BA will be after our codex drops. The first snippets look promising so far. Hopefully they adressed all the probems index BA had. I'm still worried if our infernus and flame pistols will drop in points like sisters did. Or if bloodclaws will be any good. To be honest I didn't like the path the index took. Creating one mega unit by stacking some buffs felt like deathstars back from 7th.
Bremon wrote: So the solution to overpowered shooting isn’t buffing melee, because that would be overpowered? If you buff melee, shooting remains viable, and then mixed/TAC lists become viable too. “Shooting needs to be nerfed”? A melee buff IS a shooting nerf.
Why should melee units drop in and die after a turn when shooting units can fire at will. That’s without taking bubblewrap and the >9” minimum distance into account.
Your solution to getting to melee is spending points on rhinos? When the solution to making shooting more viable is to just spend more points on shooting units? Sounds questionable.
You are reading into what I wrote a bit much. I'm not saying melee doesn't need to be buffed--it certainly does--I'm just saying you can't tilt the balance too far in the other direction. The problems with melee are two fold: getting there intact and causing enough damage once you get there. The FNP banner and +1 to wound addresses both of those for Blood Angels. Does it do it enough? I dunno, but it's currently much better than what we currently have. Regarding Rhinos and such I was just pointing out there are ways to make it into combat currently without getting shot off the table.
The two big issues with the 8th Edition rules now as I see it are units being able to break from close combat. Previously melee units were safe in close combat. Now, any savvy player will just drop out of melee and shoot that unit with everything they have which compounds the problem not to mention multiple wounds and varying AP values favors shooting more. The other issue is long charges requiring buff characters to also make a charge roll. That often strands a buff character from their unit. If I was redoing the rules, I would require a roll off to break from melee, the unit breaking would suffer mortal wounds, if the unit would fail to break off the unit in combat would gain a +1 bonus to hit, etc. There should be some sort of downside as not being able to shoot isn't enough. On the buff characters issue not making it with their units I would allow 1 character to tag along with a unit they are close too and do a group charge. So one charge roll for the unit and the character that is with him. Those 2 things would solve some issues.
I don't foresee any of this happening, but what they are giving Blood Angels in our new Codex is certainly a step in the right direction.
Yes, I agree with what you’re saying theharrower; so much of the imbalance of melee could be rectified by having units retreating from combat not be guaranteed to get away without consequences. Mortal wounds should be potentially generated. Hell, when I started playing running from combat meant you failed a morale test, and frequently lead to squads being wiped out completely, or fleeing off the table.
^ this was great but being an eldar player seeing the look on my opponents face when a rather cheap unit of aspect warriors gets lucky and beats their powerful unit in combat and then overruns them did feel a little strong haha. But I agree their should be a bigger penalty for falling back rather than just none fliers can’t shoot.
chaos45 wrote: the biggest problem with melee in the game at current is the other side can just walk away for the rest of their army to mow you down.
if disengage required a roll and wasnt automatic it would make melee much more effective. For now tho they lose a unit and if you lucky and engage other units with the 3" consolidate/follow up for winning then they just walk away and shoot all your melee guys down....
Seen it in alot of games now...thats what mainly makes melee armies crap now.
I play Grey Knights and Custodes. People walking away from me isn't the problem. It's getting to them and sometimes getting shot to bits after killing them. CQC is really deadly though and once you connect with something there isn't usually much to walk away with.
Depends on the target if you kill it first off.
Secondly what happens more often than not is you kill the primary target but due to getting an extra roughly 6 inches of movement from the first 3 inch pile on plus the second 3 inch consolidate at the end of your fight turn you can often reach additional units against gunline armies.
The ability of those secondary target units you most likely didnt kill just being able to walk away is what really hinders close combat/melee army combat ability.
As it then leaves you completely exposed to tons of fire, and against some factions they can just step back and shoot you even with the units you locked up. This to me is what really kills melee units....lets face you can you for sure get about one 9 inch charge per turn if you stack your army right unless you have total crap luck. As you can deep strike with more than one unit plus characters and you can always re-roll one dice per charge phase. So getting in a charge is easy money if you plan accordingly and have some redundancy built into your list---which any good list should have.
You are reading into what I wrote a bit much. I'm not saying melee doesn't need to be buffed--it certainly does--I'm just saying you can't tilt the balance too far in the other direction. Having melee The problems with melee are two fold: getting there intact and causing enough damage once you get there. The FNP banner and +1 to wound addresses both of those for Blood Angels. Does it do it enough? I dunno, but it's currently much better than what we currently have. Regarding Rhinos and such I was just pointing out there are ways to make it into combat currently without getting shot off the table.
Exactly, and this has really been the same issues melee has faced for quite a few editions now. At least in past editions the opponent couldn't just fallback from CC. My issue with stuff like the banner is that we continue to have to add more wargear and models, that cost more points, on top of units that typically cost more to begin with just to be competitive. Hopefully it works but i highly doubt it. BA, and melee in general, still need some more help.
theharrower wrote: The two big issues with the 8th Edition rules now as I see it are units being able to break from close combat. Previously melee units were safe in close combat. Now, any savvy player will just drop out of melee and shoot that unit with everything they have which compounds the problem not to mention multiple wounds and varying AP values favors shooting more. The other issue is long charges requiring buff characters to also make a charge roll. That often strands a buff character from their unit. If I was redoing the rules, I would require a roll off to break from melee, the unit breaking would suffer mortal wounds, if the unit would fail to break off the unit in combat would gain a +1 bonus to hit, etc. There should be some sort of downside as not being able to shoot isn't enough. On the buff characters issue not making it with their units I would allow 1 character to tag along with a unit they are close too and do a group charge. So one charge roll for the unit and the character that is with him. Those 2 things would solve some issues.
I don't foresee any of this happening, but what they are giving Blood Angels in our new Codex is certainly a step in the right direction.
I literally said this the first day I really read through 8th rules. You should not just be able to break from CC with virtually no penalty. I understand the counter point is that the unit can't shoot, or charge, but tbh, that's not really a draw back when the rest of the army can just wipe that squad out, and leaving his squad still alive. If I turn my back on someone i'm fighting and run, they are either going to strike me in the back with melee weapons or pull their pistols out and shoot me as I run. Either way, there should have been something else done with breaking from CC.
The loss of extra attacks from charging and 2 CCWs/pistols hurt a lot too. Regular assault squads got really gimped by this as they only have 1 attack base and being able to shoot in CC with pistols did not even come close to making up for all the lost attacks in the first round and beyond. But a lot of the new rules favor shooting heavily over melee.
We'll see what happens, but like you I don't think the book will fix these issues.
In all the examples people are saying, about falling back and unloading the army into that melee unit; why is that the only unit that's threatening the army? Where are the other melee units in their lines to draw more fire? What about ranged units harassing them so they aren't sure who to pick off, or have been holding objectives the whole time the enemy is focusing on the melee units? Why is it just this one melee unit in their lines who can be focused on?
Because deep strike units have less than a 50% chance of making a charge, so they’re likely also sitting out in the open getting obliterated. Taking more min sized units to maximize number of charges means the ones that make it to combat probably aren’t strong enough to wipe a unit they charge in the first place. Deep strike targets are always priority because theyre up in your face and can prevent one of your units shooting the next turn. Bubble wrap usually have short range guns; melee units get close enough to unload on while gun lines are too far away. The problems with deepstriking melee units are pretty simple and obvious.
Also shooting armies are inherently in a better position to bring their force to bear where they need it to be.
Leveraging multiple CC units on a key target or targets faces a number of hurdles whereas most shooting units would just need LOS.
Tiberius501 wrote: In all the examples people are saying, about falling back and unloading the army into that melee unit; why is that the only unit that's threatening the army? Where are the other melee units in their lines to draw more fire? What about ranged units harassing them so they aren't sure who to pick off, or have been holding objectives the whole time the enemy is focusing on the melee units? Why is it just this one melee unit in their lines who can be focused on?
Not one person has suggested a single melee unit is all we're talking about here. We're talking about the weakness of CC compared to ranged in general really, and my posts are assuming JP heavy BA army DSing multiple units in. As Bremon pointed, the chances to make those charges are not only less than %50, they are way less than %50, like %16.66 chance I believe. GW made assaulting off DS so inconsistent that you can't rely on it at all unless your army has some rule or gimmick that substantially improves those odds. Characters like Lemartes can help, but even with his re-roll, your still under way under %50 chance to make that charge. So yeah, you might have multiple units that failed their charge, and will be able to the following turn, oh by the way, they got overwatched as well, so they might be down a couple models now, and they will likely be shot at and over watched a 2nd time before they actually get into CC, and your opponent is going to do his damndest to clear as many of them out as possible, or at least weaken them to the point that they can't do enough damage.
EDIT: oops, got my % wrong, forgot about the 1" being in CC, so need 9+ on 2D6 or %27.8 to make charge, so like 1 in 4 squads will get in.
To expand on bobafett’s point; you have a 27% chance of making a charge after deep strike. You can only use one command point reroll for charges per turn. You take overwatch, likely fail the charge, so depending on your luck you can have one priority charge target overwatch multiple units; even hitting on 6s; you’re likely taking casualties. My feelings on the matter currently is that the only truly competitive deep strike unit currently is Obliterators; they hit like trucks, and bubblewrap hardly has an effect on them because they have a 24” touch. Deep strike into cover and your opponent has a hell of a time shifting them. Death Company, vanguard vets, etc. dont have the resiliency, reliability, OR hitting power they have.
Would just making it so a given unit can only overwatch once per phase even things out? To me it seems like a simple change that could make things a bit more balanced with little risk of messing something up elsewhere in the game.
I think changing the 9” deep strike rule to 7” would help a lot. It would also make flamers viable. You’ll just be flaming/charging screen units anyway and they can walk out of combat so it’s hardly broken.
Tiberius501 wrote:In all the examples people are saying, about falling back and unloading the army into that melee unit; why is that the only unit that's threatening the army? Where are the other melee units in their lines to draw more fire? What about ranged units harassing them so they aren't sure who to pick off, or have been holding objectives the whole time the enemy is focusing on the melee units? Why is it just this one melee unit in their lines who can be focused on?
Not a lot of armies can do pure melee. Granted we are talking about this in a vacuum, but largely the issue is most units can be whittled down to nothing by shooting and bubble wrap can protect other units. I agree that a list that is put together well presents a lot of target priority issues and gives opponents issues deciding on what to kill. You can saturate and focus on melee, but when you do that your army suffers in other areas.
NinthMusketeer wrote:Would just making it so a given unit can only overwatch once per phase even things out? To me it seems like a simple change that could make things a bit more balanced with little risk of messing something up elsewhere in the game.
Definitely not. Overwatch is largely just a crap shoot. Granted there are units that can really do some damage when Overwatching, but that's not what makes me lose games. Rarely does a unit I'm charging do enough damage that it can Overwatch more than once. This can be mitigated too. Charge your Rhino in first to draw fire and bring your melee unit after so it doesn't shot. There are also the grenades from Reivers and some other things you can do. Multiple Overwatch is not a problem in my experience.
Kavish wrote:I think changing the 9” deep strike rule to 7” would help a lot. It would also make flamers viable. You’ll just be flaming/charging screen units anyway and they can walk out of combat so it’s hardly broken.
I think this is tilting the balance the wrong way. Flamers are fine. They don't need a lot of help. The day this happens is the day everyone takes flamers. It would be crazy overkill. I'd love to see them give Drop Pods some kind of bonus to units coming out of them. Like a +1 save bonus to units disembarking out of it or armies getting a -1 penalty to hit. Doesn't help all armies of course, but they do need to do something.
Back on topic I saw the Blood Angels dice today. BA symbol on the 6, skull on the 1, and tear drop instead of pips. They look ok, not great.
rhavien wrote: At the end of the day it is a matter of what the designers want the game to be. In my opinion it should be viable to be a melee army, if the game designers integrate melee armies into their game. Sure, there are the people that say that shooting is far superior and of course melee armies should be mowed down at sight. But what would be the reason to play a melee oriented army then? Shall I spend my bucks and time to buy, build and paint such a faction just to get shot to bits?
Agreed but what is the proper method? Making automatic turn 1 assaults possible? That leads game even more of required screens and alpha strikes. Game is too alpha strike heavy as it is. Game needs to move away from that(including shooting obviously) rather than even more in an arms race of alpha strikes to point of 1st turn being winning roll.
Kavish wrote: I think changing the 9” deep strike rule to 7” would help a lot. It would also make flamers viable. You’ll just be flaming/charging screen units anyway and they can walk out of combat so it’s hardly broken.
Personally, i'd go no lower than 8", simply because of flamers. Being able to deep strike a unit of flamers onto the table and then unload on a unit would not be good for the game. At all. Sure, not many units can load up on nothing but flamers, but, those that can, will basically change the game completely. Currently there are ways, in some armies, to get flamers into range after deep-striking, but it is always at the cost of failure.
Don't get me wrong, i'd love to drop down my assault squads and just flame 3 or 4 units straight away and then mop up the last couple with pistols or the charge, but suddenly there is no counter to it at all.
Really? A unit of flamers dropping in and shooting would be game changing? Only to the extent that people would take flamers in the first place. 5 flamers drop in; average 17.5 bolter equivalent hits. A unit of sternguard with storm bolters can already pop off 20 shots for 13.33 hits at 12”, while being useful up to 24” rather than 8”. There’s a reason you sometimes see dakka Aggressors but flamer one’s are practically a myth. Flamers are garbage. If an opponent wanted to spend points on a drop pod and 4 devastators with heavy flamers and could torch a unit upon arrival I’d be absolutely fine with that. They’re still less effective, less durable, shorter ranged, and more expensive than obliterators for that setup.
I feel like reliable deepstrike assaults would be too much in melee armies' favour. Suddenly appearing in front of enemy units to then reliably charge them to destroy them, seems like the flip side of how shooty armies can kill us off over the table without us being able to do much about it. So I'm not sure that's the way to fix melee armies.
Deepstriking has never been a reliable way of doing anything, before 8th it was even more random. The potential to spawn much closer was definitely there before, but there was a much greater potential of ending up somewhere you didn't even want to be. So I'd say it's better now than what it was, at least. I think the problem is that shooting armies have too much alpha currently, killing melee off too fast for it to be competitive and if we made melee just as strong it'd end up a murder fest of instant kill buttons. I sort of feel like shooting needs to be dialled down a little to give melee some breathing space.
That's just my take on it anyway, I don't want to say anyone is wrong, because I'm not a rules writer so I wouldn't really know to be honest. Just my experience with 8th is just how deadly shooting is, preventing melee to get its chance, because a lot of melee units are very powerful in theory, if they weren't just being shot off the table.
EDIT: I also agree that the BAngel symbol being the 6 is an instant buy for me haha. The old ones having symbols for 1's was quite frustrating haha. So I'm keen for them.
EDIT 2: I also think the deepstriking isn't necessarily about being in the enemy's face right away. I think it's meant to be flexibility in where your units are set up. You can gage the battlefield and what your opponent is doing and then drop your units in where they're needed. For melee units, maybe deepstriking behind cover first would allow them to live so that they can then move in close to assault. Or having a cover bonus/-1 to hit, like the harrower mentioned is a good way of handling it. It'd also make sense: a big flash of energy kicking up dust/ dudes dropping down on jump packs kicking up dust or taking them enemy off guard/ drop pods slamming into the ground; it'd throw the enemy off a lot. So I'd say that's possibly a step in the right direction. More defence for the units coming in, rather than more reliable charges on the turn they come in. Because, just like you'd want a chance to counter your oponent as a melee army, you want the same for a ranged army, there's just too much in favour of ranged armies currently.
EDIT 3: A follow on from what I was saying in EDIT 2, shooting units who can deepstrike in are definitely able to do their dmg when they drop, which is sort of an issue. There's something about being able to suddenly appear where you want to do dmg to who you want which sort of feels unfair. You never want to be in a situation where you can't have some kind of control over it. Some armies can have screaming units to help prevent this, but others can't. So this still sort of feeds into ranged units being too powerful. Though, again, I'm not the best when it comes to rules or strategy, so I can't really discuss it much, but it's just my perception on it. Anyone with better knoweledge of this stuff, feel free to roast me haha
The two big issues with the 8th Edition rules now as I see it are units being able to break from close combat. Previously melee units were safe in close combat. Now, any savvy player will just drop out of melee and shoot that unit with everything they have
I feel you are looking at this from the wrong side.
True, a savvy player will drop out of combat and then shoot with his other units - however, a savvier player will make sure that the unit that has dropped out and not shooting is the one that will do the real damage.
Put another way, if someone has struggled to get into combat, has his enemy pull back and then gets hit by others, then his opponent has out played him. They have decided which units will be involved in close combat, not the attacker. Which has to be just wrong for a close combat army.
Close combat is still very good - you (generally) get more attacks and, importantly, you do damage every turn, not just once a round. Once you get there, it is a far more efficient way to destroy units.
The thing is - that shooting received a bunch of major buffs whereas melee took minor nerf's and bufs.
First of all - shooting doubled twin linked fire. And where orks ballistics makes it irrelevant, the SM shoting on 3+ and easy re-rols effectivle doubled the rate.
Also - Heavy now fires after moving.
Also - all vehicels now fireall weapons they have.
Also split all fire - means efficient spread of damage.
Also - Firing with vehicles is easier than ever - fire tracks right from the corner.
And melee got... what? losing bonus attack on charge? losing anti-ranged shield in melee? can't charge after fall back even with some keyword?
The only buff I can think of is - losing initiative, +1 inch to charge.
Deep strike actually now favors precisely shooting shock troops. It's the meltagun and other 12-inch-threat weapons that get major buff. 8 inch and less weapons became almost useless.
So again - problem with melee is not about its powerfulness, but with the difficulties to make it work, difficulties to pull it off the right way.
Also - there is a little thing called Screen that makes all deep strike harmless to shooting armies :/
That is a misconception - you take all the shooting first. Means shooting is a type of combat when only shooting hits you. There is no counter-shooting to this.
Whereas in close combat it's not just you hitting the enemy. Enemy also strikes back. Not all the shooting army are weak in melee. All of them have some kind of basic melee attack. Whereas a lot of the melee units have no ranged attack at all!
Whereas in close combat it's not just you hitting the enemy. Enemy also strikes back. Not all the shooting army are weak in melee. All of them have some kind of basic melee attack. Whereas a lot of the melee units have no ranged attack at all!
But this goes back to my point of picking your targets and not allowing your opponent to match like with like - there are plenty of units that a Blood Angel Vanguard (for example) does not have much to fear from. I would also never advocate any expectation to simply deleting enemy units without suffering any loss in return, something that some on these forums (not you, Sir) seem to be questing for.
I was just pointing out that that close combat(normally) gives you more attacks than you would get from shooting, and that you get those attacks twice per round. You can do a lot with that and is why, I feel, close combat remains relevant in this edition.
Then again, I would also advocate the use of flamers
I was just pointing out that that close combat(normally) gives you more attacks than you would get from shooting, and that you get those attacks twice per round. You can do a lot with that and is why, I feel, close combat remains relevant in this edition.
I don't agree at all. Especially since that unit is taking damage on the way there. Way easier to get units that put out more shots than attacks in melee. Last edition if I charged and engaged another unit I was safe. I didn't need to worry about that unit stepping out of combat and my unit getting shot up. If I did a lot of damage odds are I would end up sweeping the unit and killing them in 1 turn. There was also the +1 bonus attack when charging. Close combat is relevant, just far less so.
In keeping this on topic there is a limited edition of our Codex coming with new artwork I haven't seen before. Looks nice, but at $80 I'll stick with the basic codex. We should get another update today on Warhammer Community. Commence mashing the refresh button!
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, the way the article phrased things, the Red Thirst rule applies to the entire army. Angry Baal Predators?
in devastation of baal, they have to chain the flesh tearers' predators down because their machine spirits are super aggressive and have a nasty habit of making 'rash decisions' and charging.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, the way the article phrased things, the Red Thirst rule applies to the entire army. Angry Baal Predators?
in devastation of baal, they have to chain the flesh tearers' predators down because their machine spirits are super aggressive and have a nasty habit of making 'rash decisions' and charging.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, the way the article phrased things, the Red Thirst rule applies to the entire army. Angry Baal Predators?
in devastation of baal, they have to chain the flesh tearers' predators down because their machine spirits are super aggressive and have a nasty habit of making 'rash decisions' and charging.
Yes! Fluff reason for tanks to have the Red Thirst!
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, the way the article phrased things, the Red Thirst rule applies to the entire army. Angry Baal Predators?
in devastation of baal, they have to chain the flesh tearers' predators down because their machine spirits are super aggressive and have a nasty habit of making 'rash decisions' and charging.
Only in the 40k universe would a busted transmission that slips unexpectedly into 1st gear be given such a backstory instead of attributed to poor maintence, lol.
Bremon wrote: Because deep strike units have less than a 50% chance of making a charge, so they’re likely also sitting out in the open getting obliterated. Taking more min sized units to maximize number of charges means the ones that make it to combat probably aren’t strong enough to wipe a unit they charge in the first place. Deep strike targets are always priority because theyre up in your face and can prevent one of your units shooting the next turn. Bubble wrap usually have short range guns; melee units get close enough to unload on while gun lines are too far away. The problems with deepstriking melee units are pretty simple and obvious.
I agree that Assaulting out of Deep Strike is not easy to pull off. A Lemartes DC-bomb could work as his rerolls give you nearly 50% chance of pulling off the charge but that is about as reliable as it gets. This means that Deep Strike is best used to delivery our shooty short ranged shooty units.
So how do we get into assault? The simple answer is that it is not just the enemy who can screen. Take 3-4 Razorbacks/Rhinos with cheapish Tac squads inside and move them up the field on Turn 1 with your Jump infantry running just behind them. Pop smoke perhaps if you are facing a shooty enemy. The enemy will shoot but will have a hard time popping enough rhinos to get decent LOS to your jump troops. Turn 2, pile out the tactical squads out and use their bolter fire to clear a gap through any chaff so your jump units can move up and charge the real meat.
I think that jump pack melee armies will be viable for Blood Angels but that they will require a combined-arms approach. You cannot simply plop down your units using Deep Strike and expect to assault whatever targets you want.
I expected more than this today, but at least it's something.
Looks like Tolmeron isn't a special character after all. From Facebook:
Lieutenant Tolmeron is named in the annals of the Chapter and you can represent him on the tabletop by using the datasheet for a Primaris Lieutenant found in Codex Blood Angels.
I am glad he isn't a special character. I wouldn't mind GW releasing rules for Lieutenant Tolmeron himself, though.
I am definitely painting my Blood Angels Lieutenants with red helmets and a white and gold stripe on the top. I hate that they just have basic veteran helmets.
warboss wrote: I think I prefer the starter set's Lt model more personally.
I will be running one of the Dark Imperium LTs and one of this new one. They both look great. The Dark Imperium one is one of my favorite models GW has made in a long time though. Definitely the better pose of the two LTs.
if anything his pose sitting 'nicely' between striking and leading is anything but and is more awkward and terrible. primarily due to the stiff wrist lol
warboss wrote: I think I prefer the starter set's Lt model more personally.
I will be running one of the Dark Imperium LTs and one of this new one. They both look great. The Dark Imperium one is one of my favorite models GW has made in a long time though. Definitely the better pose of the two LTs.
Galas wrote:
warboss wrote: I think I prefer the starter set's Lt model more personally.
The starter set LT with sword and boltpistol has one of the more badass poses a Space Marine has ever had
Spoiler:
Beautifull
Agreed (obviously). I'm actually finishing up my own first conversion of that model as I type (the overcoat spray is drying). They really knocked it out of the part with that monopose starter model.
Mchaagen wrote: Curious why that Blood Angel primaris Lt has an iron halo. Mistake or new option?
A lot of BA models have Iron Halos. Even some of the Death Company. I wouldn't count on it being an option.
Ah, I never noticed that on the Death Company--but then I never bought into the newest blinged-out plastics.
Seems to be a poor model design choice to throw halos on models that don't have them as an option in-game. But it's definitely not the first time there's been a disconnect between models and wargear options.
Mchaagen wrote: Curious why that Blood Angel primaris Lt has an iron halo. Mistake or new option?
A lot of BA models have Iron Halos. Even some of the Death Company. I wouldn't count on it being an option.
I don't think it's actually meant to signify an iron halo with the BA as so many models including bog standard tactical marines have variations on that particular style of bling.
Mchaagen wrote: Curious why that Blood Angel primaris Lt has an iron halo. Mistake or new option?
A lot of BA models have Iron Halos. Even some of the Death Company. I wouldn't count on it being an option.
Ah, I never noticed that on the Death Company--but then I never bought into the newest blinged-out plastics.
Seems to be a poor model design choice to throw halos on models that don't have them as an option in-game. But it's definitely not the first time there's been a disconnect between models and wargear options.
Well, they are Angels so it isn't like it doesn't make sense...
I suppose it makes sense to newer Blood Angels players, or those that have been collecting them consistently for the last 10 years. I played them back in 3rd and 4th, before the time of bling.
I suppose it makes sense to newer Blood Angels players, or those that have been collecting them consistently for the last 10 years. I played them back in 3rd and 4th, before the time of bling.
This is why I love the new Primaris kits. The basic Marines aren't covered in bling. I can handle a character having some additional bling, but when Commander Dante, the frickin' CHAPTER MASTER, looks plain next to a Tactical Marine, there is a problem.
Cool model, and I like the pose, personally. I may pick it up, or I may kitbash my own standard power armored lieutenant (non-primaris) if it's an option.
I suppose it makes sense to newer Blood Angels players, or those that have been collecting them consistently for the last 10 years. I played them back in 3rd and 4th, before the time of bling.
This is why I love the new Primaris kits. The basic Marines aren't covered in bling. I can handle a character having some additional bling, but when Commander Dante, the frickin' CHAPTER MASTER, looks plain next to a Tactical Marine, there is a problem.
Dante is covered in gold. Very humble, little bling.
Dante is what; 22ish years old? He was the king of bling when he was new. Teenage me was amazed at how cool he was. Blood angels have been obsessed with their appearance for decades despite what some of us who started collecting in 3rd think.
I suppose it makes sense to newer Blood Angels players, or those that have been collecting them consistently for the last 10 years. I played them back in 3rd and 4th, before the time of bling.
This is why I love the new Primaris kits. The basic Marines aren't covered in bling. I can handle a character having some additional bling, but when Commander Dante, the frickin' CHAPTER MASTER, looks plain next to a Tactical Marine, there is a problem.
Dante is covered in gold. Very humble, little bling.
Also, he's an old model.
Sit Dante next to a Sanguinary Guard and tell me he doesn't look a bit ridiculous. And don't get me wrong, I love the Dante model. He looks great even though the model is like 20+ years old. I just think GW went off the rails with BA bling. The Primaris kits scaling stuff back is a great solution to this problem. Even the LT looks plain next to the average BA Tactical Marine. Regardless, I am actually looking forward to adding a bunch of Primaris Marines to my BA.
theharrower wrote: I expected more than this today, but at least it's something.
Looks like Tolmeron isn't a special character after all. From Facebook:
Lieutenant Tolmeron is named in the annals of the Chapter and you can represent him on the tabletop by using the datasheet for a Primaris Lieutenant found in Codex Blood Angels.
theharrower wrote: I expected more than this today, but at least it's something.
Looks like Tolmeron isn't a special character after all. From Facebook:
Lieutenant Tolmeron is named in the annals of the Chapter and you can represent him on the tabletop by using the datasheet for a Primaris Lieutenant found in Codex Blood Angels.
Comments on the sword and pose are utter drivel. What they've done with the sword arm throws the rest of the pose off completely while the sword itself is both oddly proportioned and not particularly BA bar the dangly blood gem on the hilt. Look at the Sanguinary Guard glaives for how to BA-ify a damned weapon.
p5freak wrote: Can anyone please explain to me how reivers and inceptors excel in CC like mentioned in the latest BA article on the WC website ??
In the same way that they're new units, of course.
But really they've got the pistol and knife and 'bump into you' attack respectively, so obviously they're excellent at CC.
I'm honestly more confused by the 'long dominated the skys.' Marines were forbidden aircraft for a long time in the fluff, and didn't exist on the table until recently in any case. I guess they were one of the earliest to have giant flying brick foisted at them, but still...
p5freak wrote: Can anyone please explain to me how reivers and inceptors excel in CC like mentioned in the latest BA article on the WC website ??
In the same way that they're new units, of course.
But really they've got the pistol and knife and 'bump into you' attack respectively, so obviously they're excellent at CC.
Does a unit have to absolutely wipe a unit to be considered excellent at CC?
the mobility and ability to get into CC fairly early on is really important to things like preventing some heavy weapon from shooting (though it dosent apply to everyone)
Desubot wrote: Does a unit have to absolutely wipe a unit to be considered excellent at CC?
Kinda, yes. If you can't completely obliterate the screen then you have zero chance of tying up the stuff behind it (never mind the fact that half the armies in the game have flying vehicles that don't give a damn if you tie them up in CC).
Even for Templars which get a re-roll to charge, I don't rate Reivers myself either. Sure they're tough but what are they going to kill? Their weapons have no AP value and hit at S4, so sure for BA you're wounding on 3s most of the time or 2s for weaker stuff. But still, what is that good for? Killing guardsmen, cultists, Eldar guardians, etc? Sorry but I have better things for blendering the chaff.
I suppose, if I absolutely had to pick a CC option to blender chaff units I might consider a squad of Reivers, but honestly Vanguard Veterans with two chainsword seem like the better option in terms of getting stuck in faster. You don't have to deep strike them because of their 12'' move stat. Reivers? You better take that grapple or the chute, otherwise you're crawling up that field 6'' at a time plus your advance roll.
Very cool looking, but rather useless unit IMO, especially now that intercessors went down in points.
Galas wrote: Reivers are great for Age of Sigmar, hunting artillery crews and that kind of stuff.
Reavers != Reivers
That said, something I feel that continually gets overlooked on Reivers is their ability to subtract a point of Leadership to units they're within 3" of and their Shock Grenades.
Huck a Shock Grenade in your Shooting phase to deny Overwatch and to force the enemy to be at a penalty to hit during the ensuing Combat with the Reivers or anything else that charges that unit.
I've had some fairly good success using Reivers to 'prime' a target for a charge by an actual CC unit like Vanguard with Lightning Claws or Assault Marines. Sometimes I get cheeky and keep the Reivers right near the combat to take advantage of that -1 LD without throwing them into it.
p5freak wrote: Can anyone please explain to me how reivers and inceptors excel in CC like mentioned in the latest BA article on the WC website ??
Reivers are solid light infantry hunters with their deepstrike abilities, good amount of attacksk, +1 to wound from Red Thirst and their "you can't overwatch against us" troll-grenade. They got me on the Inceptors though... although Red Thirst can actually be quite nice when they lock up a T5-7 vehicle in CC, they wound on 4s and most vehicles save on a 3+, meaning they can actually cause 1 or 2 wounds. Still far from a good CC unit though... unless GW releases a special BA Inceptor kit with melee weapon options we are as of yet unaware of.
Neither reivers not inceptors are excellent in CC. Space Marines have no excellent CC units. How can a model which doesn't even have a special CC weapon be excellent in CC ??
p5freak wrote: Can anyone please explain to me how reivers and inceptors excel in CC like mentioned in the latest BA article on the WC website ??
Reivers are solid light infantry hunters with their deepstrike abilities, good amount of attacksk, +1 to wound from Red Thirst and their "you can't overwatch against us" troll-grenade. They got me on the Inceptors though... although Red Thirst can actually be quite nice when they lock up a T5-7 vehicle in CC, they wound on 4s and most vehicles save on a 3+, meaning they can actually cause 1 or 2 wounds. Still far from a good CC unit though... unless GW releases a special BA Inceptor kit with melee weapon options we are as of yet unaware of.
You cant troll grenade out of deep strike.
but yeah while not as excessive as zerkers they do have a decent weight of st4 attacks then get to wound +1 with red thirst. they are wounding t3 infantry on 2s and flippin t7 tanks on 4s.
pretty sick. they seem "excellent" for the amount of points you are putting into them.
Galas wrote: Reivers are great for Age of Sigmar, hunting artillery crews and that kind of stuff.
Reavers != Reivers
Well, except it is the same word, except without the quaintly archaic localization
It was a joke guys, don't read too much into it. It comes from other forum where talking about the use of Reivers, we concluded that in a game like AoS or Warhammer Fantasy they would be a very good unit to hunt artillery crews, like the dwarf Gyrocopter. But in W40k you don't have artillery crews... just the Ork grot cannons and some FWIG ones. So their role without special weapons, AP or high strenght, is really, really niche. As much as I love them. I have 20 reivers
p5freak wrote: Neither reivers not inceptors are excellent in CC. Space Marines have no excellent CC units. How can a model which doesn't even have a special CC weapon be excellent in CC ??
The Emperor's Champion is a monster. A very cheap monster. He just destroy any character he touches, barring the meele monsters ones like the Swarmlord, Guilliman, etc... and even those, with Hellbretch and Grimaldus buff, he can give them a good run for their money.
p5freak wrote: Neither reivers not inceptors are excellent in CC. Space Marines have no excellent CC units. How can a model which doesn't even have a special CC weapon be excellent in CC ??
Roughly half the chapter tactics previews for the main marine codex gushed about how amazing Inceptors are in melee. It got ridiculous seeing them claim that over and over.
They have reason to charge to try to hide in close combat and fall back later, but expecting to do damage there?
Reivers might be usable if the shock grenade had a 9" range to hopefully survive long enough to do something.
That said, there is nothing they bring that another unit doesn't do better or more effective. Need DS assault? Vanguard vets. Need screeners; scouts. Need harassing units; bikes. List goes on.
buddha wrote: Reivers might be usable if the shock grenade had a 9" range to hopefully survive long enough to do something.
That said, there is nothing they bring that another unit doesn't do better or more effective. Need DS assault? Vanguard vets. Need screeners; scouts. Need harassing units; bikes. List goes on.
But how much do or would they cost. to do it that better or more effectivly.
buddha wrote: Reivers might be usable if the shock grenade had a 9" range to hopefully survive long enough to do something.
That said, there is nothing they bring that another unit doesn't do better or more effective. Need DS assault? Vanguard vets. Need screeners; scouts. Need harassing units; bikes. List goes on.
If they could take auxiliary grenade launchers on their pistols that'd be bloody fantastic.
Hand flamers down to 1 point, inferno pistol down to 9 points, Angelus boltgun down to 3 points.
Furioso's to 80 and libby dread to 130.
How the F are the Hand Flamers down to 1pt when they just published CA and Sisters Hand Flamers are still 3pts?
Don't know, I thought the same thing when I heard him say that. So far, the wargear has generally been costed the same across the board, but short of him misspeaking, the BA would get them for 1pt and SoB for 3 points. they really should only be 1 point though. storm bolter's are 2 points and far better imo, so 1 feels ok. Even at 1 point, i don't know that I would use them anyways, they aren't great against most armies...
They stated that in the video that:
"Sanguinus is in statis/bad shape state."
If they retcon Sanguinius back into being alive, then that is the biggest load of garbage GW would have pulled off in my gaming life, and this is coming from a guy who started playing 40k back in 2nd ed.
AveImperator wrote: They stated that in the video that:
"Sanguinus is in statis/bad shape state."
If they retcon Sanguinius back into being alive, then that is the biggest load of garbage GW would have pulled off in my gaming life, and this is coming from a guy who started playing 40k back in 2nd ed.
It actually doesn't make that little sense.
What would you tell the larger imperium (sheeple) if sanguinius wasn't actually dead, but rather injured beyond recovery?
Far easier to exploit his noble sacrifice than to explain he's a vegetable.
But thats assuming a lot, and we shouldn't. He could very well be dead in stasis, and thats where they farm his blood or something.
AveImperator wrote: They stated that in the video that:
"Sanguinus is in statis/bad shape state."
If they retcon Sanguinius back into being alive, then that is the biggest load of garbage GW would have pulled off in my gaming life, and this is coming from a guy who started playing 40k back in 2nd ed.
It actually doesn't make that little sense.
What would you tell the larger imperium (sheeple) if sanguinius wasn't actually dead, but rather injured beyond recovery?
Far easier to exploit his noble sacrifice than to explain he's a vegetable.
But thats assuming a lot, and we shouldn't. He could very well be dead in stasis, and thats where they farm his blood or something.
AveImperator wrote: They stated that in the video that:
"Sanguinus is in statis/bad shape state."
If they retcon Sanguinius back into being alive, then that is the biggest load of garbage GW would have pulled off in my gaming life, and this is coming from a guy who started playing 40k back in 2nd ed.
It actually doesn't make that little sense.
What would you tell the larger imperium (sheeple) if sanguinius wasn't actually dead, but rather injured beyond recovery?
Far easier to exploit his noble sacrifice than to explain he's a vegetable.
But thats assuming a lot, and we shouldn't. He could very well be dead in stasis, and thats where they farm his blood or something.
Put the pitchforks down ya?
But thats exactly what happened to girlyman no?
Yeah it’d sort of defeat the purpose of his death, especially when there are plenty of other Primarchs left to bring back who aren’t dead in the fluff... that said, I’d still buy him haha
Tiberius501 wrote: Did they mention any unit point reductions? Either way, the reductions to the pistols are great and needed
I know that the dreadnoughts and sanguinary guard went down. Dante stayed the same as the index.
Few new things:
1) There's a 2cp stratagem that lets a jump unit that deep striked to charge on 3d6 instead of 2d6. It isn't 3d6-lowest.
2) One relic is a thunder hammer without the -1 to hit. Another is a jump pack that denies overwatch and rerolls charge distances
3) The 6th spell gives the librarian +d3 attacks and +d3 charge and advance distances. Other two are the wings spell and a 12" beam and does a mortal wound to everything underneath on a 5
+.
4) The 4 unknown warlord traits are a 6" heroic intervention, one that lets you always fight with charges ala emperor's children, a 6" immune to bravery bubble and the last lets the warlord to to deny the witch once a turn.
So, being the inpatient dude that I am, I was checking the pre-orders out on the New Zealand site and saw this pic as one of the preview pages for the new codex. I’m almost definitely reading too much into it, but hint at a new model we may get in the future?
Guilliman was stabbed, then rushed into a stasis container damn near minutes after.
Sanguinius was destroyed by a super powered primarch, and had anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour of being dead, NOT dying slowly a la guilliman. Not to mention his death being vital to the plot and super important to his own character and HH actions.
Him being in stasis is hand-waving to the 10th degree and lazy as sin. It's almost as stupid as them reviving Ferrus Mannus as if he wasn't decapitaded, or deciding that Curze's death was all a hoax and that Big E is alive and not bound to the throne, he was just taking a vacation.
Tiberius501 wrote: Did they mention any unit point reductions? Either way, the reductions to the pistols are great and needed
I know that the dreadnoughts and sanguinary guard went down. Dante stayed the same as the index.
Few new things:
1) There's a 2cp stratagem that lets a jump unit that deep striked to charge on 3d6 instead of 2d6. It isn't 3d6-lowest.
2) One relic is a thunder hammer without the -1 to hit. Another is a jump pack that denies overwatch and rerolls charge distances
3) The 6th spell gives the librarian +d3 attacks and +d3 charge and advance distances. Other two are the wings spell and a 12" beam and does a mortal wound to everything underneath on a 5
+.
4) The 4 unknown warlord traits are a 6" heroic intervention, one that lets you always fight with charges ala emperor's children, a 6" immune to bravery bubble and the last lets the warlord to to deny the witch once a turn.
Im 100% using a Librarian dreadnaught with that +d3 spell. The laser is pretty terribly underwhelming but there’s always some crappy ones. I’m also somewhat disapointed with warlord traits too. I’ll probably just go with the +1 dmg one. Relics seem alright though
AveImperator wrote: They stated that in the video that:
"Sanguinus is in statis/bad shape state."
If they retcon Sanguinius back into being alive, then that is the biggest load of garbage GW would have pulled off in my gaming life, and this is coming from a guy who started playing 40k back in 2nd ed.
It actually doesn't make that little sense.
What would you tell the larger imperium (sheeple) if sanguinius wasn't actually dead, but rather injured beyond recovery?
Far easier to exploit his noble sacrifice than to explain he's a vegetable.
But thats assuming a lot, and we shouldn't. He could very well be dead in stasis, and thats where they farm his blood or something.
Put the pitchforks down ya?
But thats exactly what happened to girlyman no?
No, even as far back as the 2nd ed Ultramarine Codex (yes, they had one back then) there was a paragraph describing how his neck wound was healing even in statis.
So, they were intending on bringing back Gulliman even back then.
Sanguinius on the other hand is dead as dead can be. Brining him back would make all this like comic books, where everyone can die and come back because nothing has any weight to it.
Tiberius501 wrote: Did they mention any unit point reductions? Either way, the reductions to the pistols are great and needed
I know that the dreadnoughts and sanguinary guard went down. Dante stayed the same as the index.
Few new things:
1) There's a 2cp stratagem that lets a jump unit that deep striked to charge on 3d6 instead of 2d6. It isn't 3d6-lowest.
2) One relic is a thunder hammer without the -1 to hit. Another is a jump pack that denies overwatch and rerolls charge distances
3) The 6th spell gives the librarian +d3 attacks and +d3 charge and advance distances. Other two are the wings spell and a 12" beam and does a mortal wound to everything underneath on a 5
+.
4) The 4 unknown warlord traits are a 6" heroic intervention, one that lets you always fight with charges ala emperor's children, a 6" immune to bravery bubble and the last lets the warlord to to deny the witch once a turn.
Im 100% using a Librarian dreadnaught with that +d3 spell. The laser is pretty terribly underwhelming but there’s always some crappy ones. I’m also somewhat disapointed with warlord traits too. I’ll probably just go with the +1 dmg one. Relics seem alright though
A jump pack librarian with a force axe and the relic jump pack will be really good on backfield devastators or basilisks. Deep strikes in, gives himself d3 attacks and +3" charge, then charges in. You can't overwatch and he only needs a 6 on a 2d6 rerolling if he fails. Plus if he gets there he will have +d3 (or more) attacks. If you are counting on a screen of conscripts or push his landing site away by denying the 9" for deep strike, he can also give himself the wings to immediately fly 12" right over your screen, then have that charge with the +3". Will really have to have those screens right next to what they're screening.
Tiberius501 wrote: Did they mention any unit point reductions? Either way, the reductions to the pistols are great and needed
I know that the dreadnoughts and sanguinary guard went down. Dante stayed the same as the index.
Few new things:
1) There's a 2cp stratagem that lets a jump unit that deep striked to charge on 3d6 instead of 2d6. It isn't 3d6-lowest.
2) One relic is a thunder hammer without the -1 to hit. Another is a jump pack that denies overwatch and rerolls charge distances
3) The 6th spell gives the librarian +d3 attacks and +d3 charge and advance distances. Other two are the wings spell and a 12" beam and does a mortal wound to everything underneath on a 5
+.
4) The 4 unknown warlord traits are a 6" heroic intervention, one that lets you always fight with charges ala emperor's children, a 6" immune to bravery bubble and the last lets the warlord to to deny the witch once a turn.
Im 100% using a Librarian dreadnaught with that +d3 spell. The laser is pretty terribly underwhelming but there’s always some crappy ones. I’m also somewhat disapointed with warlord traits too. I’ll probably just go with the +1 dmg one. Relics seem alright though
I liked in the Signals from the Frontline video from earlier today where they figured that a Captain with the Black Rage and a thunderhammer can destroy a baneblade on his own with only a minor amount of luck.
Brennonjw wrote: Guilliman was stabbed, then rushed into a stasis container damn near minutes after.
Sanguinius was destroyed by a super powered primarch, and had anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour of being dead, NOT dying slowly a la guilliman. Not to mention his death being vital to the plot and super important to his own character and HH actions.
Him being in stasis is hand-waving to the 10th degree and lazy as sin. It's almost as stupid as them reviving Ferrus Mannus as if he wasn't decapitaded, or deciding that Curze's death was all a hoax and that Big E is alive and not bound to the throne, he was just taking a vacation.
Hasn't it already been mentioned by Black Library that what we think we know about the Siege of Terra isn't actually how it went down? I mean sure the old, "He died for us" spiel would be better to keep that way, but its not unlikely that they change that.
AveImperator wrote: They stated that in the video that: "Sanguinus is in statis/bad shape state."
If they retcon Sanguinius back into being alive, then that is the biggest load of garbage GW would have pulled off in my gaming life, and this is coming from a guy who started playing 40k back in 2nd ed.
It actually doesn't make that little sense. What would you tell the larger imperium (sheeple) if sanguinius wasn't actually dead, but rather injured beyond recovery? Far easier to exploit his noble sacrifice than to explain he's a vegetable.
But thats assuming a lot, and we shouldn't. He could very well be dead in stasis, and thats where they farm his blood or something.
Put the pitchforks down ya?
But thats exactly what happened to girlyman no?
No, even as far back as the 2nd ed Ultramarine Codex (yes, they had one back then) there was a paragraph describing how his neck wound was healing even in statis. So, they were intending on bringing back Gulliman even back then.
Sanguinius on the other hand is dead as dead can be. Brining him back would make all this like comic books, where everyone can die and come back because nothing has any weight to it.
I recall him effectivly being at deaths door not because of the wound it self but ze poison.
anyway yeah sanguinius was dead as a door nail but it is space magic. and unlike horus his soul wasnt destroyed. i would of preferred him getting a new body. otherwise Ba players are about to get a true zombie primarch.
fe40k wrote: BA with Sanguinus dead: WTFGW where’s our primarch model every other Chapter gets one
BA with Sanguinis alive: WTFGW you can’t just change the lore like that
You can’t have your primarch cake and eat it too - pick one.
they cant win because the community isnt some monolithic hive mind with the same opinions on things. different people want different things.
Desubot wrote: i would of preferred him getting a new body.
A dreadnought primarch would be cool. Don't think actual Blood Angels players would want that though to be honest, even among those who'd want their primarch to return.
Desubot wrote: i would of preferred him getting a new body.
A dreadnought primarch would be cool. Don't think actual Blood Angels players would want that though to be honest, even among those who'd want their primarch to return.
I was thinking more primarus/daemon/saint possession type thing. like the most powerful black rage you can imagine.
Brennonjw wrote: Guilliman was stabbed, then rushed into a stasis container damn near minutes after.
Sanguinius was destroyed by a super powered primarch, and had anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour of being dead, NOT dying slowly a la guilliman. Not to mention his death being vital to the plot and super important to his own character and HH actions.
Him being in stasis is hand-waving to the 10th degree and lazy as sin. It's almost as stupid as them reviving Ferrus Mannus as if he wasn't decapitaded, or deciding that Curze's death was all a hoax and that Big E is alive and not bound to the throne, he was just taking a vacation.
Hmm... hasn't always been, the corpse of Sanguinus, in stasis under Baal? Is from where they extract the sanguinus blood they use to infuse the BA initiates, no?
Brennonjw wrote: Guilliman was stabbed, then rushed into a stasis container damn near minutes after.
Sanguinius was destroyed by a super powered primarch, and had anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour of being dead, NOT dying slowly a la guilliman. Not to mention his death being vital to the plot and super important to his own character and HH actions.
Him being in stasis is hand-waving to the 10th degree and lazy as sin. It's almost as stupid as them reviving Ferrus Mannus as if he wasn't decapitaded, or deciding that Curze's death was all a hoax and that Big E is alive and not bound to the throne, he was just taking a vacation.
Hmm... hasn't always been, the corpse of Sanguinus, in stasis under Baal? Is from where they extract the sanguinus blood they use to infuse the BA initiates, no?
Yes. As a mostly exsanguinated corpse. But gw has seemed to change it to "almost dead but not lol. Just like our spiritual leige." Him being dead is to plot relivent both in 30 and 40k, but now they will explain away his visions, fate, black rage, and a few other major plot points for the sake of stroking cawls ego and making a quick buck.
I would not worry too much. I listened to that interview live and he straight up said Sanguinius was dead just before the stasis comment. I am quite sure that as others have said he was referring to the corpse being in stasis.
Chikout wrote: I would not worry too much. I listened to that interview live and he straight up said Sanguinius was dead just before the stasis comment. I am quite sure that as others have said he was referring to the corpse being in stasis.
It actually answers the question of what they did with his body
Apparently there's no entry for a Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack in the Codex. GW's insistence on only having rules for models they actually produce is really infuriating at the best of times but this is just ridiculous.
Yes, I know you can use the Index rules but it's still deeply annoying.
Where is this info coming? I just want to know one, thing: can the Intercessor sergeants have power swords? Whether my new primaris army will be run as BA or not pretty much hangs on that fact.
-Cataphractii and Tartaros Terminator armor are now included in the codex. They have a +4 invulnerable save. They can take double lightning claws. No Tartaros Captain option.
-Blood Angel Terminator-specific Strat: Strike of the Archangels. *The image for this strat is below in our previous article.*
-Sanguinary Guard Stratagem: Behold the Golden Host – it extends the Death Mask aura to 12″.
-Assault Marine Troops are still listed as Fast Attack.
-Lots of options for Blood Angel army lists with 77 datasheets to choose from.
-You can have a Death Company Leader with the Death Visions of Sanguinius Stratagem. *The image for this strat is below in our previous article.*
-Terminator Captain in Cataphractii Armor datasheet is now included in this codex.
-Blood Angels Psychic Powers: Wings of Sanguinius is back. Unit can make a 12″ flying move in its Psychic phase. Blood Lance: pick a visible enemy model within 12″ and draw a line. Any models in the path can take damage with a warp charge of 6 and 5+ inflicts a mortal wound.
-Contemptor Dreadnoughts have been added to the Blood Angel unit selection.
-Some Stratagems in the Blood Angels Codex come from the Space Marine Codex and there are 13 unique Stratagems.
-Lucifer Pattern Engines Stratagem: Use before Advancing with a Blood Angels vehicle other than a Blood Angel Dreadnought or a flying vehicle, you can increase the movement of chosen vehicle by 6″ or D6 + 6 if you are a Baal Predator.
-Vengeance for Sanguinius Stratagem: on a hit roll of 6+ against Heretic Astartes will generate an extra attack. When targeting Black Legion units, you generate an extra attack on a 4+.
-Relics: The Archangel’s Shard – Strength is equal to the user. -3AP and 1 Damage. If attacking a Monster, you do D3 Damage, If the Monster is also a Demon, you D6 Damage.
-Warlord Traits: Speed of the Primarch – Your Warlord can fight first in the Fight phase, even if her did not charge. Artisan of War: add +1 damage to any weapon that you choose to use for your Warlord.
-Mephiston has access to Red Thirst.
-Inferno pistols are now 9 points, down from 20. Hand Flamer is now 1 point, down from 8. Angelus Boltgun
-Librarian Dreadnought is 130 points, down from 150. 80 points for a Furioso Dreadnought, down from 122.
-New Codex discusses new Successor chapters and will allow to create one. They cannot use relics save for one that is made from the shard of Sanguinius’ sword.
-More lore concerning the various Blood Angel Successor chapters is contained inside the codex.
-The theme of this codex will be the introduction of Primaris Marines to the chapter and what this means for the revival of the Blood Angels chapter.
-Death Company has new strat that will apply to a character model that has succumbed to to the black rage be fore the battle and will allow to apply Death Company rules and traits to said character. Can be used on a character, chaplain, and lieutenants and not any Primaris.
-Red Rampage Stratagem: allows you to add D3 to the Attack characteristic for a Blood Angel Character to charge that turn.
-There is a new Blood Angels Primaris Lieutenant model, Lt. Tolmeron. No new Blood Angels models.
-Unless there is a datasheet for it, special and unique characters cannot use a bike.
-The codex is quite comprehensive and will have all applicable models, vehicles, and weapon options when it comes to datasheets. There are also many little changes to said datasheets.
-Blood Angels Dreadnoughts will have access to meltaguns.
-Sanguinary Ancient has his own datasheet.
-Terminator Ancient is now a character.
-Death Company rules: re-roll failed to hit roills for all units within 6″ of Sanguinary Guard units. Enemy units suffer -1 to Leadership when within 3″ of anyone wearing a Death Mask.
-Lamenters have been brought up to date as have all Blood Angel successor chapters.
-Centurions are not part of the Blood Angles forces. Some units that have been added are the Storm Talon Gunship and the Storm Hawk Interceptor.
A shame that BA will not have Centurios. Now I don't expect DA to have them... a shame, I really love the models and I was hoping to add a squad or two to my army
Crimson wrote: Where is this info coming? I just want to know one, thing: can the Intercessor sergeants have power swords? Whether my new primaris army will be run as BA or not pretty much hangs on that fact.
They cannot, unfortunately. Only Chainswords. Makes absolutely no sense but whatever.
Galas wrote: A shame that BA will not have Centurios. Now I don't expect DA to have them... a shame, I really love the models and I was hoping to add a squad or two to my army
The Angels armies have to lose something to justify them being snowflakes. Compare what you lose to Thousand Sons/Death Guard and be happy.
Galas wrote: A shame that BA will not have Centurios. Now I don't expect DA to have them... a shame, I really love the models and I was hoping to add a squad or two to my army
The Angels armies have to lose something to justify them being snowflakes. Compare what you lose to Thousand Sons/Death Guard and be happy.
I'll buy a box anyway and I'll put them in the detachment with "Cool Imperial Units that I like" with Custodes, SoS, Assasins and Grey Knights.
And personally I know many people will hate me because this is more marines, but I think the solution isn't for the special snowflake chapters to lose things, but to give some special units and characters for the rest of the chapters. You know, like BT have. Some cool cyborg Iron Hand units and their Chapter Master... the FW special Salamander Terminators but in plastic, etc...
-Inferno pistols are now 9 points, down from 20. Hand Flamer is now 1 point, down from 8. Angelus Boltgun
Angelus Boltgun... what?
I posted this a couple pages back "Angelus boltgun down to 3 points"
so inferno pistols for 9 that can't hit out of DS or angelus bolters for 3 that can. I'm taking the bolters... Now, does anyone have points cost for encarmine weapons?
Pretty lame the rules writers copy/pasted the Baal Predator rules. Do they not realize that advancing faster doesn't matter since heavy flamers are Heavy weapons instead of assault?
A simple fix would have been "The Baal Predator advances 2d6" instead of d6". In a turn in which this model it advances it treats Heavy Flamers as if they were Assault weapons". Nope, just lazy copy and paste with no understanding of how useless it is in the game.
-Inferno pistols are now 9 points, down from 20. Hand Flamer is now 1 point, down from 8. Angelus Boltgun
Angelus Boltgun... what?
I posted this a couple pages back "Angelus boltgun down to 3 points"
so inferno pistols for 9 that can't hit out of DS or angelus bolters for 3 that can. I'm taking the bolters... Now, does anyone have points cost for encarmine weapons?
Also, Blood Talons got fixed. They are a lot better now. They are now +4 str, -2 AP, 3 damage, and you get to re-roll all hits AND wounds. now that makes me consider them over fists
bobafett012 wrote: Also, Blood Talons got fixed. They are a lot better now. They are now +4 str, -2 AP, 3 damage, and you get to re-roll all hits AND wounds. now that makes me consider them over fists
Wow yeah, that's really good. A death company one charging in would utterly wreck
Blood Angel Captain, give him the Black Rage with the stratagem for one point.
Give him a Thunder Hammer, the relic jetpack, +1 damage warlord trait.
So you basically have a Captain that re-rolls charges, cannot be overwatched, and swings 5 times on the charge with a Thunder Hammer that deals 4 damage, and will probably wound everything on 2s.
Wait, do the Blood Angels versions of Primaris kits cost the same but have a bonus option sprue? Doesn't that make the normal versions kind of obsolete?
TheWaspinator wrote: Wait, do the Blood Angels versions of Primaris kits cost the same but have a bonus option sprue? Doesn't that make the normal versions kind of obsolete?
Not really, since the normal versions will fit your Primaris stuff as well.
TheWaspinator wrote: Wait, do the Blood Angels versions of Primaris kits cost the same but have a bonus option sprue? Doesn't that make the normal versions kind of obsolete?
Not really, since the normal versions will fit your Primaris stuff as well.
Yeah if I wasn't collecting BAngels I wouldn't get their boxed sets even though they come with extra bits for free. I'm actually pleasantly surprised GW are selling them at the same price, it's refreshing to see them not squeezing every bit of money they can out of it
TheWaspinator wrote: Wait, do the Blood Angels versions of Primaris kits cost the same but have a bonus option sprue? Doesn't that make the normal versions kind of obsolete?
Not really, since the normal versions will fit your Primaris stuff as well.
Yeah if I wasn't collecting BAngels I wouldn't get their boxed sets even though they come with extra bits for free. I'm actually pleasantly surprised GW are selling them at the same price, it's refreshing to see them not squeezing every bit of money they can out of it
Why wouldn't you buy? You basically say you want to pay more just for fun of it.
AveImperator wrote: They stated that in the video that:
"Sanguinus is in statis/bad shape state."
If they retcon Sanguinius back into being alive, then that is the biggest load of garbage GW would have pulled off in my gaming life, and this is coming from a guy who started playing 40k back in 2nd ed.
Actually this would make more sense than if he were dead.
If he was in stasis, trapped and alive, his psychic rage could actually be triggering the black rage.
They aren't seeing his death, they are being touched by his current madness at being imprisoned.
Wasn't there a bit about two primarchs switching sides at some point?
AveImperator wrote: They stated that in the video that:
"Sanguinus is in statis/bad shape state."
If they retcon Sanguinius back into being alive, then that is the biggest load of garbage GW would have pulled off in my gaming life, and this is coming from a guy who started playing 40k back in 2nd ed.
Actually this would make more sense than if he were dead.
If he was in stasis, trapped and alive, his psychic rage could actually be triggering the black rage.
They aren't seeing his death, they are being touched by his current madness at being imprisoned.
Wasn't there a bit about two primarchs switching sides at some point?
My biggest question is, if he wasn't alive, how have they managed to harvest as much blood as they have? If he wasn't regenerating and getting his blood back, wouldn't he be a dried up husk by now?
Blood Angel Captain, give him the Black Rage with the stratagem for one point.
Give him a Thunder Hammer, the relic jetpack, +1 damage warlord trait.
So you basically have a Captain that re-rolls charges, cannot be overwatched, and swings 5 times on the charge with a Thunder Hammer that deals 4 damage, and will probably wound everything on 2s.
Sounds pretty good to me.
I intend to build my captain to be precisely this exact built, but add in an Inferno Pistol and a Death Mask for good measure, so that if he gets close enough to something he can shoot it on the way in, and/or while still engaged. In addition, the leadership ding will help him against a larger unit after he smashes a few models, hopefully.
The only other option I would look at, in lieu of the +1 damage to a weapon trait, would be the Speed of the Primarch trait so he always gets to smash his target first in most any instance. Yea, you lose out on four to five damage potentially (and that's a LOT, comparatively) but if you get charged you can hopefully still smash your opponent before they can even swing on you, which would be hilarious. I would pair that warlord trait with the Relic thunder hammer that isn't unwieldy though if I'm honest.
Good stuff. I hate that Shield of Sanguinius is back to a 5++ invuln save now. It's better than nothing, but I won't be running it nearly as much I don't think, though I will likely still throw it with my Librarian Dread on Death Company or on itself to help give it a little bit better odds of survival against big hits.
AveImperator wrote: They stated that in the video that:
"Sanguinus is in statis/bad shape state."
If they retcon Sanguinius back into being alive, then that is the biggest load of garbage GW would have pulled off in my gaming life, and this is coming from a guy who started playing 40k back in 2nd ed.
Actually this would make more sense than if he were dead.
If he was in stasis, trapped and alive, his psychic rage could actually be triggering the black rage.
They aren't seeing his death, they are being touched by his current madness at being imprisoned.
Wasn't there a bit about two primarchs switching sides at some point?
My biggest question is, if he wasn't alive, how have they managed to harvest as much blood as they have? If he wasn't regenerating and getting his blood back, wouldn't he be a dried up husk by now?
They haven't been siphoning his blood from his corpse all this time. The Sanguinary High Priests are basically 'hosts' for his blood. That's why they hold so much honor and status in the Chapter. They use the Sanguinary High Priest's blood as proxy as each one has been injected with a portion of blood drawn from previous generations of High Priests going all the way back to the Heresy and Sanguinius's death.
He is, according to all the books and novels I've read anyway, dead and interred in a stasis field underneath the fortress monastery of the Blood Angels on Baal.
Kirasu wrote: Pretty lame the rules writers copy/pasted the Baal Predator rules. Do they not realize that advancing faster doesn't matter since heavy flamers are Heavy weapons instead of assault?
A simple fix would have been "The Baal Predator advances 2d6" instead of d6". In a turn in which this model it advances it treats Heavy Flamers as if they were Assault weapons". Nope, just lazy copy and paste with no understanding of how useless it is in the game.
Add “and no longer auto-hits” and that might be remotely balanced.
A lot of armies have models that get advance bonuses but can’t advance and shoot; it still helps to get out of line of sight or to other positions if needed.
Blood Angel Captain, give him the Black Rage with the stratagem for one point.
Give him a Thunder Hammer, the relic jetpack, +1 damage warlord trait.
So you basically have a Captain that re-rolls charges, cannot be overwatched, and swings 5 times on the charge with a Thunder Hammer that deals 4 damage, and will probably wound everything on 2s.
Sounds pretty good to me.
I intend to build my captain to be precisely this exact built, but add in an Inferno Pistol and a Death Mask for good measure, so that if he gets close enough to something he can shoot it on the way in, and/or while still engaged. In addition, the leadership ding will help him against a larger unit after he smashes a few models, hopefully.
The only other option I would look at, in lieu of the +1 damage to a weapon trait, would be the Speed of the Primarch trait so he always gets to smash his target first in most any instance. Yea, you lose out on four to five damage potentially (and that's a LOT, comparatively) but if you get charged you can hopefully still smash your opponent before they can even swing on you, which would be hilarious. I would pair that warlord trait with the Relic thunder hammer that isn't unwieldy though if I'm honest.
Fight First mechanics don't work like that. It basically makes the "who goes first" a tie between you and the charger, which means that the person who's turn it is gets to declare first. The warlord trait only does something useful if you're still in the same fight next battle round and nobody else has charged in.
It's a bad trait, basically, and the +1 damage trait is a much better option for your captain.
TheWaspinator wrote: Wait, do the Blood Angels versions of Primaris kits cost the same but have a bonus option sprue? Doesn't that make the normal versions kind of obsolete?
10 intercessors or hellblasters on the NZ site are $115, the Blood Angel versions are $124.
Blood Angel Captain, give him the Black Rage with the stratagem for one point.
Give him a Thunder Hammer, the relic jetpack, +1 damage warlord trait.
So you basically have a Captain that re-rolls charges, cannot be overwatched, and swings 5 times on the charge with a Thunder Hammer that deals 4 damage, and will probably wound everything on 2s.
Sounds pretty good to me.
I intend to build my captain to be precisely this exact built, but add in an Inferno Pistol and a Death Mask for good measure, so that if he gets close enough to something he can shoot it on the way in, and/or while still engaged. In addition, the leadership ding will help him against a larger unit after he smashes a few models, hopefully.
The only other option I would look at, in lieu of the +1 damage to a weapon trait, would be the Speed of the Primarch trait so he always gets to smash his target first in most any instance. Yea, you lose out on four to five damage potentially (and that's a LOT, comparatively) but if you get charged you can hopefully still smash your opponent before they can even swing on you, which would be hilarious. I would pair that warlord trait with the Relic thunder hammer that isn't unwieldy though if I'm honest.
Fight First mechanics don't work like that. It basically makes the "who goes first" a tie between you and the charger, which means that the person who's turn it is gets to declare first. The warlord trait only does something useful if you're still in the same fight next battle round and nobody else has charged in.
It's a bad trait, basically, and the +1 damage trait is a much better option for your captain.
Ah you're right, I misunderstood the mechanic. Good catch sir. Yea that's not a great trait then, though it can be somewhat useful in a few situations, overall the +1 damage trait is vastly superior.
On the charge, with the Death Visions stratagem, you'd have 5 attacks, hitting on 3+ with re-roll 1's (Average would be 4 to 5 hits, any 2's not-withstanding). This can be mitigated by having Lemartes nearby, since he lets keyword Death Company re-roll ALL failed to-hit rolls. I happen to have a Lemartes and run him regularly, so that's happening here.
With ~5 hits, you'll then wound most anything you swing on with a 2+ (Not a lot of toughness 8 stuff floating around) and anything that's T:8 you'll still hurt on a 3+, so 90+% of the time you're going to average 4 or 5 wounds unless you're just terribly unlucky. That's 16 to 20 wounds against a target, with 4+ invuln saves coming in to negate ~50% of the hits on average, you're still looking to get 8 to 12 wounds on a target in a single round, depending on how well they roll.
It'd be worth it to burn the 3 CP strategem Honor the Chapter (if it's in the codex, I believe folks have said it is) to allow the Captain to fight a second time (a-la the Khorne Berzerkers) and swing five more attacks if he's still alive after taking the return shots for 16 to 20 MORE potential wounds on a target. Or, conversely, do this for a Death Company or Sanguinary Guard unit to really just rip a unit apart. I can see it working VERY well, especially if you have 7+ command points to spare. Use 2 CP for the Descent of Angels or the prior to first turn Death Company free move stratagem, then use the Honor the Chapter once you make it in on a high value target to really make sure it dies. Leaves you 2 CP left over to either re-roll or for a combat interruption on the opponent's fight phase.
I'm liking it. Looking forward to playing a few games with this in the near future.
I am mainly happy that BA are getting access to the Stormraven and Stormtalon and that it looks like we are a potentially half decent army. Certainly better than the last BA Codex. A lot of the points drops are really appreciated as well.
Is the Sanguinary Ancient going down the 8pts too, like the Sanguinary Guard? Or just the 6 for the bolt gun? If it's just the 6 I'll be over by 1pt for my new list :/
TheWaspinator wrote: Wait, do the Blood Angels versions of Primaris kits cost the same but have a bonus option sprue? Doesn't that make the normal versions kind of obsolete?
10 intercessors or hellblasters on the NZ site are $115, the Blood Angel versions are $124.
And the upgrade frame is $26 on the NZ site. We know from WD that it will be $15 USD. We also know that the boxes include not one but two upgrade frames for the Hellblasters and Intercessors along with a Blood Angels Primaris transfer sheet while the Aggressors include one upgrade frame and the Blood Angels Primaris transfer sheet.
Don't quote me on this but I'm thinking we'll see them at something like $65USD for the Hellblasters and Intercessors and $55USD for Aggressors. There wasn't really a price-band match to work with($124 for Intercessors/Hellblasters and $105 for Aggressors) so this is just speculative guess-work.
Tiberius501 wrote: Is the Sanguinary Ancient going down the 8pts too, like the Sanguinary Guard? Or just the 6 for the bolt gun? If it's just the 6 I'll be over by 1pt for my new list :/
Do you have a death mask on your Ancient? If so, drop it and you'll be 1 point under.
I suspect the ancient dropped in points accordingly along side the Sanguinary Guard, but obviously I don't know that till the codex is in-hand.
On the charge, with the Death Visions stratagem, you'd have 5 attacks, hitting on 3+ with re-roll 1's (Average would be 4 to 5 hits, any 2's not-withstanding). This can be mitigated by having Lemartes nearby, since he lets keyword Death Company re-roll ALL failed to-hit rolls. I happen to have a Lemartes and run him regularly, so that's happening here.
With ~5 hits, you'll then wound most anything you swing on with a 2+ (Not a lot of toughness 8 stuff floating around) and anything that's T:8 you'll still hurt on a 3+, so 90+% of the time you're going to average 4 or 5 wounds unless you're just terribly unlucky. That's 16 to 20 wounds against a target, with 4+ invuln saves coming in to negate ~50% of the hits on average, you're still looking to get 8 to 12 wounds on a target in a single round, depending on how well they roll.
It'd be worth it to burn the 3 CP strategem Honor the Chapter (if it's in the codex, I believe folks have said it is) to allow the Captain to fight a second time (a-la the Khorne Berzerkers) and swing five more attacks if he's still alive after taking the return shots for 16 to 20 MORE potential wounds on a target. Or, conversely, do this for a Death Company or Sanguinary Guard unit to really just rip a unit apart. I can see it working VERY well, especially if you have 7+ command points to spare. Use 2 CP for the Descent of Angels or the prior to first turn Death Company free move stratagem, then use the Honor the Chapter once you make it in on a high value target to really make sure it dies. Leaves you 2 CP left over to either re-roll or for a combat interruption on the opponent's fight phase.
I'm liking it. Looking forward to playing a few games with this in the near future.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Remember that modifiers come in after rerolls. So Lemartes does not let you reroll those 2s to hit because they hit for the captain when it's time to check for failed hits for rerolls, then the -1 to hit for the thunder hammer is applied after making those 2s to hit miss.
There is a relic thunder hammer that doesn't have the -1 to hit. So you'd have to choose between that and the relic jump pack.
Another thing to consider is there is a stratagem that gives a charging character +d3 attacks. With that, it's quite possible for a thunder hammer captain to take out a baneblade in a single round of combat.
The fluff for it is that a group of Primaris Intercessors and their Lieutenant were performing a small scale assault on a planet, where a much larger threat has been discovered (which will be different depending on my opponent), so a Libararian dread leading some Archangels are coming down to relieve them.
Not sure if it's particularly competitive haha, but it should be fun I think
--- [BATTALION]---
HQ - Sanguinary Priest w/ jump pack and power fist
- Primaris Lieutenant
TROOP
- 10x Intercessors w/ Auto boltrifles
- 5x Intercessors w/ normal boltrifles
- 5x Intercessors w/ normal boltrifles
It's sitting around 1970pts like that. Humming and harring over swapping out the priest and a Sanguinary Guard with the Sanguinor. That puts me at 1999-2001pts, depending on the price of the ancient. But with the priest aiding the guard with his +1 strength, they're wounding most infantry and elites on 2's on the charge, which is glory. But the Sanguinor would give them all extra attacks which would probably help more in the long run, so not sure haha
EDIT: planning on giving the ancient the 5+ disgustingly resilient standard relic, and my warlord (Libby dread) the +1 dmg warlord trait
TheWaspinator wrote: Wait, do the Blood Angels versions of Primaris kits cost the same but have a bonus option sprue? Doesn't that make the normal versions kind of obsolete?
Not really, since the normal versions will fit your Primaris stuff as well.
Yeah if I wasn't collecting BAngels I wouldn't get their boxed sets even though they come with extra bits for free. I'm actually pleasantly surprised GW are selling them at the same price, it's refreshing to see them not squeezing every bit of money they can out of it
Why wouldn't you buy? You basically say you want to pay more just for fun of it.
They don't cost the same. The normal intercessor and hellblaster box is 45€, the BA one with the extra sprue is 50€. The aggresor his 42,5€ instead of 40€. So basically, they add 2,5€ per extra sprue to the base price. Thats fair, the sprue by himself costs 10€, so you pay 1/4 of the cost.
Blood Angel Captain, give him the Black Rage with the stratagem for one point.
Give him a Thunder Hammer, the relic jetpack, +1 damage warlord trait.
So you basically have a Captain that re-rolls charges, cannot be overwatched, and swings 5 times on the charge with a Thunder Hammer that deals 4 damage, and will probably wound everything on 2s.
Sounds pretty good to me.
I intend to build my captain to be precisely this exact built, but add in an Inferno Pistol and a Death Mask for good measure, so that if he gets close enough to something he can shoot it on the way in, and/or while still engaged. In addition, the leadership ding will help him against a larger unit after he smashes a few models, hopefully.
The only other option I would look at, in lieu of the +1 damage to a weapon trait, would be the Speed of the Primarch trait so he always gets to smash his target first in most any instance. Yea, you lose out on four to five damage potentially (and that's a LOT, comparatively) but if you get charged you can hopefully still smash your opponent before they can even swing on you, which would be hilarious. I would pair that warlord trait with the Relic thunder hammer that isn't unwieldy though if I'm honest.
Fight First mechanics don't work like that. It basically makes the "who goes first" a tie between you and the charger, which means that the person who's turn it is gets to declare first. The warlord trait only does something useful if you're still in the same fight next battle round and nobody else has charged in.
It's a bad trait, basically, and the +1 damage trait is a much better option for your captain.
This is true only if theres just those two units in a combat. If they charge your warlord, but then in their turn they activate first another unit that has charged, then you can activate your warlord before the enemy that has charged him attacks.
Loving all this extra stuff I'm hearing.
Will be fun working out some detachments when I get home and figuring out what I want to buy to reinforce my guys.
I'm definitely going to get a Land Speeder Storm. I could do with more Scouts anyway, and I love the look of the model.
Kanluwen wrote: The BA Intercessors and Hellblasters did not go up in price. They're $60.
I'm pleasantly surprised by this. I hope it's not a mistake.
Lol, you are right. GW and his crazy prices for different countries. I'm glad for you tought! GW screws USA enough with the exchange rates, you deserve this little "gift"
I don't recall seeing that be the case with any of the imperial armies...
The heavy flamers have already been heavy type in the index imperium 1. And in the Index Imperium 1 Update 1.1 they changed the flamestormcannon to heavy type. Unless they change it back to assault in the codex the stratagem where the baal predator advances D6+6 is useless because he cannot fire anything.
I don't recall seeing that be the case with any of the imperial armies...
The heavy flamers have already been heavy type in the index imperium 1. And in the Index Imperium 1 Update 1.1 they changed the flamestormcannon to heavy type. Unless they change it back to assault in the codex the stratagem where the baal predator advances D6+6 is useless because he cannot fire anything.
I thought it was just added movement, not advancing?
I don't recall seeing that be the case with any of the imperial armies...
The heavy flamers have already been heavy type in the index imperium 1. And in the Index Imperium 1 Update 1.1 they changed the flamestormcannon to heavy type. Unless they change it back to assault in the codex the stratagem where the baal predator advances D6+6 is useless because he cannot fire anything.
The Strategem allows moving AND advancing. So the tanks have an 18" move. You just have to use it before advancing. You don't have to actually advance.
-Lucifer Pattern Engines Stratagem: Use before Advancing with a Blood Angels vehicle other than a Blood Angel Dreadnought or a flying vehicle, you can increase the movement of chosen vehicle by 6″ or D6 + 6 if you are a Baal Predator.
Ok, why am i not surprised that GW, for the 1000th time, had a bad choice of words ???? When you advance you cannot fire heavy weapons. Using moving instead of advancing would have caused less confusion, at least for me.
p5freak wrote: -Lucifer Pattern Engines Stratagem: Use before Advancing with a Blood Angels vehicle other than a Blood Angel Dreadnought or a flying vehicle, you can increase the movement of chosen vehicle by 6″ or D6 + 6 if you are a Baal Predator.
Ok, why am i not surprised that GW, for the 1000th time, had a bad choice of words ???? When you advance you cannot fire heavy weapons. Using moving instead of advancing would have caused less confusion, at least for me.
There's no confusion, they meant Advancing. You'd like it to allow shooting too, sure, but it seems that wasn't their intent.
Not to crush your dreams.. but I believe that's just the artwork of the regular Primaris Librarian when they released it's points values separately, it just looks like Gravis Armour due to how the Librarian has a psychic hood over himself. If you look at the details the art matches up with the details on the model almost 100%, you have the little eagle crest crowning over the hood, the keys and book on the same side of the belt etc.
There's no confusion, they meant Advancing. You'd like it to allow shooting too, sure, but it seems that wasn't their intent.
Ok, why would i advance my baal pred D6+6 when i cannot fire any of my guns, because they all are heavy ?
Because you weren't in range to shoot at anything anyways and getting in range of a certain objective is really important this turn? Not every stratagem is Veterans of the Long War, some are situational and that's still working as intended.
Loving the idea of a 15 man Death Company Squad that moves 12+d6" before the first turn, 12" on the first turn, then charges with 3d6 in the first turn and wrecks face with the Red Thirst... Bonus points if my Captain takes up the Black Rage and joins them
diepotato47 wrote: Loving the idea of a 15 man Death Company Squad that moves 12+d6" before the first turn, 12" on the first turn, then charges with 3d6 in the first turn and wrecks face with the Red Thirst... Bonus points if my Captain takes up the Black Rage and joins them
You'd be burning a lot of CP, since you'd have to pay separately for the Captain. I'm also pretty sure it doesn't work:
Descent of Angels requires the unit to be set up on the battlefield that turn.
Forlorn Fury is used before the first battle round (or before the game begins, as the author's summary is weird "before the first Battle Round but before the game begins"), so the DC wouldn't be set up that turn (and thus can't use descent of angels).
But... if you're using descent of angels, you don't need forlorn fury at all. Just Jump Pack Assault and charge from 9".
Forlorn Fury seems an absolute waste of CP, unless you absolutely need to walk DC on foot, but need them to pretend they have jump packs before the game starts. I don't have any idea when that would be true.
I actually found the frontlinegaming 'review' (read: advertising masquerading as a speculative opinion piece) really puzzling. Some of what he labels 'competitive' is must take (some, like red thirst, aren't even optional), others are meh, and efficient and situational seem to translate to mediocre and trash.
Are they just barred by GW from saying anything negative?
Don't get me wrong, some of this looks really good, but a 3 CP stratagem to do 1d3 mortal wounds to units, if you roll a 6+ if they are within 1d6" of a point is definitely not 'efficient.' It's not even worth considering. And a lot of the 'pay CP to do d3 mortal wounds' instead of rolling attacks normally aren't necessarily terrible, but they're really far from 'efficient.'
I encounter his review pretty accurate. Yeah, some "efficient" should have been situational, and I think he rated Red Thrist as competitive compared with other chapter/legion tactics in the game.
He was right that for people theres only two states for a unit/rule: OP or trash.
Red Thirst is definitely one of the better <> traits. -1 to hit traits are probably better (though less so if the meta shifts to closer ranged engagements due to Tyranids) but there aren't many other traits that are as uniquely powerful as the Red Thirst.
diepotato47 wrote: Loving the idea of a 15 man Death Company Squad that moves 12+d6" before the first turn, 12" on the first turn, then charges with 3d6 in the first turn and wrecks face with the Red Thirst... Bonus points if my Captain takes up the Black Rage and joins them
You can't do the Descent of Angels 3d6" Charge, but if your Death Company just moved halfway across the board anyway, so you probably have them in decent position for a charge. Bonus points if you get Lemartes near them so they reroll charges to close even better. So it works. Red Thirst makes for even more fun since they are going to wound easier.
Descent would be good on a squad of Vanguard Veterans or Sanguinary Guard. Not all that great on anything else since it only affects one unit. For 2 CP it should affect ALL jump pack units that come in on that turn, IMO.
I encounter his review pretty accurate. Yeah, some "efficient" should have been situational, and I think he rated Red Thrist as competitive compared with other chapter/legion tactics in the game.
He shouldn't, as compared to most of them, it's clearly better. That it works on the charge or when charged fundamental alters several units and makes them much more functional. More so with some of the BA specific stratagems and psi powers.
Which frankly was always going to be a problem with the Angels and Wolves. Aside from a few generics, most are going to be tailored to those chapters, whereas the main book chapters (and CSM legions) have to split up the stratagem space among them, so they have fewer tools.
He was right that for people theres only two states for a unit/rule: OP or trash.
Not really. Some of them are quite good. Almost none are OP, and only a few are trash (orbital bombardment being obviously so, especially compared to the similarly priced 'entire unit fights again' stratagem).
The fundamental problem with the way he's evaluating things is that he's talking about them solely on the basis of what the stratagems can do. He talks about them as if there are unlimited CP, which skews the discussion severely, and talks about permanent effects (Red Thirst and warlord traits) in the exact same way. This is particularly bad when it comes to relics- two of the first three and the last are stupidly good (the hammer pretty much has to be discarded, simply because the global effects of the others are so high). But for the stratagems particularly you're never going to have enough CP to burn them in the way he's describing- especially if you're building lists around crazy expensive things like a full 15 death company with jump packs, or trying to get Descent of Angels to Work multiple times by combining it with wings of fire. If that's your goal, then fine, but you aren't going to do it while burning CP on Heavy Bolters (and turning said HBs into 1 shot weapons, which skews the odds pretty severely)
But he's also ignoring that the words he's using instead of a weird overlap of auto-take, good, average or bad have specific meanings.
'Efficient' is never a word to associate using any amount of CP on a gun by gun basis. You will never have that many CP.
Similarly anything that procs off a 6+ is not an 'efficient' use of CP, and there is quite a bit of that. 1 CP to give an entire unit of sternguard +1 to wound with their special boltguns (up to 20 shots) is merely 'situational,' but making 1 missile launcher shot +1 to hit and d3 mortal wounds rather than d6 wounds is somehow 'efficient.' This is a lot of stuff and nonsense, even if you want to bend the odds trying to take down a flyer.
Psi-powers are a little weird. Rage and shield are the obvious ones to take, Quickening... isn't. It situationally is on a librarian dread that you want to mash face with, but the run of the mill librarian shouldn't ever take it (higher WC, only affects libby). On the other hand, Blood Boil is a really good murder or weakening tool, but blood lance is fairly unreliable for.. anything, and given the other choices involved, should never be taken voluntarily.
Kanluwen wrote: The BA Intercessors and Hellblasters did not go up in price. They're $60.
I'm pleasantly surprised by this. I hope it's not a mistake.
Interesting point on this- the sprues by themselves don't cover a full squad. So you can pay $0 with the kit or $25 for two separately, though the aggressor/gravis shoulder pads are free in all cases. (Presumably the aggressor box only comes with a single sprue)
Well, then the problem you're having with Baal Predators has zero to do with the advance rule.
True. The baal pred so far is overpriced and pretty useless if equipped with the flamestormcannon (FSC). I wonder if GW forgot that they changed the FSC to heavy, when they created the Lucifer Pattern Engines stratagem, it would make perfect sense to advance fast and shoot the FSC. The need to wait another turn until it can fire. This delay can bring enemy troops in range to kill it, or give them time to move away from its pathetic 8" range. The AM hellhound is also a flamer tank, but its range is 16", and its only 101 pts.
Well, I am glad I have finally figured out what I am going to do with my box of Reivers. Five will become Crimson Fists with Bolt Carbines and Grapnel Launchers (for dropping into cover and laying down some cover-ignoring support fire). The other five will become Blood Angels with Heavy Bolt Pistol and Combat Knife with Grav Chutes. It is too bad the Blood Angels ones won't really benefit from any of our new Strategems.
diepotato47 wrote: Loving the idea of a 15 man Death Company Squad that moves 12+d6" before the first turn, 12" on the first turn, then charges with 3d6 in the first turn and wrecks face with the Red Thirst... Bonus points if my Captain takes up the Black Rage and joins them
You'd be burning a lot of CP, since you'd have to pay separately for the Captain. I'm also pretty sure it doesn't work:
Descent of Angels requires the unit to be set up on the battlefield that turn.
Forlorn Fury is used before the first battle round (or before the game begins, as the author's summary is weird "before the first Battle Round but before the game begins"), so the DC wouldn't be set up that turn (and thus can't use descent of angels).
True. Got to do one or the other and it is pricy. But it might be worthwhile if you can block a Baneblade or something like that Turn 1.
- Captain with Angels Wing superjumppack (re-roll charge, cannot be overwatched) and a Hammer or something.
- If you get first turn, turn him Death Company (1CP) and Forelorn Fury (2CP) for 12+D6 inch before the game.
- Another 12 inch in your turn.
- Declare a charge against pretty much everything in 12 inch at that point (because you cannot be overwatched) and charge the juiciest target, hopping across screens if necessary.
- If you really got CP to burn, you could up his attacks with strategems, kill something, pile into something else you also multi-charged and burn another 3 CP to fight again. But it's getting kinda silly at that point.
Alternatively, Drop Death Company + Lemartes from Reserves and use Descent of Angels for a 3D6 charge, re-rollable thanks to Lemartes (who himself will, unfortunately, have to come in with 2D6 on his own).
-Cataphractii and Tartaros Terminator armor are now included in the codex. They have a +4 invulnerable save. They can take double lightning claws. No Tartaros Captain option.
Hopefully 4++ refers just cataphractii. They are supposed to be cumbersome but extra protection. Tartaros should be agile ones.
I really need a stats for a Named characters in-built warlord traits to see what they get?
If anyone has a codex hearby pretty-please could you spoil that?
from wh40k 4chan: Heroic Bearing: All friendly BLOOD ANGELS units withing 6" autopass morale tests. Dante has this as his mandatory trait.
Yay... Dante just keeps getting worse and worse.
Yeah I was disappointed in this too. Morale warlord traits are not my favorite at all, specially for SM armies in general with ATSKNF. He's one of the most expensive characters of all the SM named characters at 215 points and tbh, Azreal at 170, literally blows him out of the water in CC, special rules, and auras, and so does Calgar at 200 points. He should be in the 180 point range imo for what he does, or have another special ability. He literally only has chapter master. the rest is gear and he's not carrying better gear than say Azreal.
I really need a stats for a Named characters in-built warlord traits to see what they get?
If anyone has a codex hearby pretty-please could you spoil that?
from wh40k 4chan: Heroic Bearing: All friendly BLOOD ANGELS units withing 6" autopass morale tests. Dante has this as his mandatory trait.
Yay... Dante just keeps getting worse and worse.
Yeah I was disappointed in this too. Morale warlord traits are not my favorite at all, specially for SM armies in general with ATSKNF. He's one of the most expensive characters of all the SM named characters at 215 points and tbh, Azreal at 170, literally blows him out of the water in CC, special rules, and auras, and so does Calgar at 200 points. He should be in the 180 point range imo for what he does, or have another special ability. He literally only has chapter master. the rest is gear and he's not carrying better gear than say Azreal.
180? He should be 150 at best. Pedro Kantor is 170 and he hands out a ton of buffs while still being on par with Dante, who is only a beatstick.
I beg to disagree.
First of all - azrael/calgar/cantor are slow infantry - being fast is excellent for a buffing character
He have a deep strike - which means superior tactical flexibility than all the rest of chapter masters.
With stratagems - that means he will always be there where his attetion needed the most
With Red thirst - that means wounding on 2+ all the infantry
6 attacks - 2+ to hit rerollable, 2+ to-wound (rerollable vs characters) means all that goes right into the enemy.
There is also so much synergy with evrything else - Red Rampage stratagem +d3 attack, and other sources of bonus attacks.
And most of them will go through. So even vehicles will blow up thanks to inferno pistol
And 6 inch bubble fearles is essential for blobs of 15 death company marines/10 Sanguinary guard as the banner of the Ancient don't give us fearless now.
So in my opinion, the only thing he lacks for 215 points is the bonus command points.
That is THE SHAME that one of the few greartest Commandor of the whole Imperium, that coordinates entire galactic sectors don't give a f- command points.
That is just ridiculous.
Also - I enjoy underpriced Mephiston better than slightly overpriced Dante.
Btw - they should drop 10 points for Inferno pistol he equiped with
Omega-soul wrote: So in my opinion, the only thing he lacks for 215 points is the bonus command points.
That is THE SHAME that one of the few greartest Commandor of the whole Imperium, that coordinates entire galactic sectors don't give a f- command points.
That is just ridiculous.
Not everyone seems to be getting free command points though, at least the Blood Angels have decent ways to recycle them from what i've heard.
Logan Grimnar or Eldrad Ulthran don't give command points either despite being renowned and vastly experienced commanders. Sure Eldrad gets a Warlord Trait (IF he's selected to be your Warlord) that recycles them on a 6+ at the start of each turn which would probably equate to 1 free command point considering the length of most games nowadays wheras the likes of Guard and Marines have a number of recycle mechanics on a 5+ or a few characters that give extra points.
1. Red Thirst is amazing. BA have a few ways to buff Strength, Attacks and get re-rolls. Stacking all of that together makes them very good in CC, which is as it should be.
2. Flavourful, useful Stratagems. Sure, there are some duds but there are a lot of great ones too. I think BA will probably be one of the more CP-hungry armies in the game, so we'll probably see armies built around maximising them if possible. This is especially true because we don't have the same CP-generating abilities other armies do.
3. Great Relics. The only problem I have is choosing which one to take.
4. Death Company, Sangiunary Guard and Sanguinary Priests look like being the core of a lot of BA armies, which adds to the uniqueness of the army. I think we'll be seeing fewer and fewer BA armies that are just "red Marines".
The Bad:
1. Baal Predators still suck. Seriously, just a copy-paste from the Index with a barely useable Strat added in? I guess mine will stay in the cupboard this edition.
2. Dante. Just...WTF? Expensive, no additional trait beyond standard Chapter Master and a fairly crappy Warlord Trait. Sure, he's a beatstick, but I don't think BA are going to have any problems creating characters who are good in CC.
3. No change in points for the various Encarmine weapons. They're basically Force weapons, which all got a substantial price cut in Chapter Approved. Seems like another oversight/lack of effort from GW.
The Ugly:
1. No new Mephiston model.
Overall I'm pretty happy and I think GW have probably solved the problem of Marine CC being pretty weak. +1 to wound is huge and really buffs the efficiency of any BA unit In assault. I think we'll still need to be careful with army composition as a lot of the initial armies I've seen have gone all-in on assault, leaving very little to deal with enemy armour or tough units at a distance. BA are good in CC but not particularly resilient so they still lose models at a pretty rapid rate. Luckily, a core of Tacticals with heavy weapons helps with filling our a Battalion detachment for extra CPs.
Finally, I thought the FLG review was OK, but pretty rose-tinted. Any rating system that doesn't acknowledge the possibility of something just being bad is not fit for purpose. You have to be very, very generous to think things like Orbital Bombardment are anything other than a waste of CPs. That then brings into question the quality of the rest of the review. I hope the review of the units will be a little more realistic and robust.
1. Red Thirst is amazing. BA have a few ways to buff Strength, Attacks and get re-rolls. Stacking all of that together makes them very good in CC, which is as it should be.
2. Flavourful, useful Stratagems. Sure, there are some duds but there are a lot of great ones too. I think BA will probably be one of the more CP-hungry armies in the game, so we'll probably see armies built around maximising them if possible. This is especially true because we don't have the same CP-generating abilities other armies do.
3. Great Relics. The only problem I have is choosing which one to take.
4. Death Company, Sangiunary Guard and Sanguinary Priests look like being the core of a lot of BA armies, which adds to the uniqueness of the army. I think we'll be seeing fewer and fewer BA armies that are just "red Marines".
The Bad:
1. Baal Predators still suck. Seriously, just a copy-paste from the Index with a barely useable Strat added in? I guess mine will stay in the cupboard this edition.
2. Dante. Just...WTF? Expensive, no additional trait beyond standard Chapter Master and a fairly crappy Warlord Trait. Sure, he's a beatstick, but I don't think BA are going to have any problems creating characters who are good in CC.
3. No change in points for the various Encarmine weapons. They're basically Force weapons, which all got a substantial price cut in Chapter Approved. Seems like another oversight/lack of effort from GW.
The Ugly:
1. No new Mephiston model.
Overall I'm pretty happy and I think GW have probably solved the problem of Marine CC being pretty weak. +1 to wound is huge and really buffs the efficiency of any BA unit In assault. I think we'll still need to be careful with army composition as a lot of the initial armies I've seen have gone all-in on assault, leaving very little to deal with enemy armour or tough units at a distance. BA are good in CC but not particularly resilient so they still lose models at a pretty rapid rate. Luckily, a core of Tacticals with heavy weapons helps with filling our a Battalion detachment for extra CPs.
Finally, I thought the FLG review was OK, but pretty rose-tinted. Any rating system that doesn't acknowledge the possibility of something just being bad is not fit for purpose. You have to be very, very generous to think things like Orbital Bombardment are anything other than a waste of CPs. That then brings into question the quality of the rest of the review. I hope the review of the units will be a little more realistic and robust.
Eh. I enjoyed the different approach. I get bored of the binary, min-maxing view of Codexes. The YES, Maybe and Ehhhhh rating system was refreshing to me.
I'm just happy that Sanguinary Guard are usable now. I've not used death company often, mostly because I play second company, but I've always loved the idea of a full melee Vanguard unit of stormshields and various power weapons and a big unit of Sanguinary Guard. Seems fairly reasonable with the new codex so I'm stoked
JohnnyHell wrote: Eh. I enjoyed the different approach. I get bored of the binary, min-maxing view of Codexes. The YES, Maybe and Ehhhhh rating system was refreshing to me.
But if you remove negative from the review you don't end up with less binary but instead more like unary which is even worse.
JohnnyHell wrote: Eh. I enjoyed the different approach. I get bored of the binary, min-maxing view of Codexes. The YES, Maybe and Ehhhhh rating system was refreshing to me.
But if you remove negative from the review you don't end up with less binary but instead more like unary which is even worse.
They didn't remove negative. You're just perceiving it that way.
sorry.. had to.
Martel had better never complain after this anymore.
I am genuinely surprised that 
