I'm really liking the Magera as an Infernal House to bring it up to Str 8 and Damage 4. At first I didn't like Infernal as many of their guns don't benefit from it very much, but its pretty darn strong on these guys. If you throw them into House Khomentis and take their warlord trait Dread Hunter, you can come close to one-shotting a Knight through rotated Ion Shields. The reroll all hits and wounds lets you fish for 6's to hit and makes the wound rolls much more reliable.
Of course, that would have to be your Warlord, since Chaos Knights can't give warlord traits or relics to the forge world knights through stratagems.
bmsattler wrote: I'm really liking the Magera as an Infernal House to bring it up to Str 8 and Damage 4. At first I didn't like Infernal as many of their guns don't benefit from it very much, but its pretty darn strong on these guys. If you throw them into House Khomentis and take their warlord trait Dread Hunter, you can come close to one-shotting a Knight through rotated Ion Shields. The reroll all hits and wounds lets you fish for 6's to hit and makes the wound rolls much more reliable.
Of course, that would have to be your Warlord, since Chaos Knights can't give warlord traits or relics to the forge world knights through stratagems.
Magaera with Demonic power and Dread hunter causes almost 20 wounds against opposing knight with rotated shield.
I have to say, after six games of 9th edition with my Chaos Knights now (winning 5 and drawing 1), I'm finding he opposite of what the tactics videos say. I'm always behind on VP in the first couple of turns, but then through attrition I come back and score big in the second half of the game. What are others finding?
I score early, since I play very aggressive melee, I get plenty of space. My games go similar to the video posted on here a page or so back: I send my Wardogs and melee knights forward while my two shooting knights move up to center objectives and shoot. If the opponent can’t handle the Wardogs and melee knight, I just win. If they can, I still end up getting ahead in primaries because I focus on clearing objectives to deny primary instead of just shooting their anti-tank stuff.
Brymm wrote: I score early, since I play very aggressive melee, I get plenty of space. My games go similar to the video posted on here a page or so back: I send my Wardogs and melee knights forward while my two shooting knights move up to center objectives and shoot. If the opponent can’t handle the Wardogs and melee knight, I just win. If they can, I still end up getting ahead in primaries because I focus on clearing objectives to deny primary instead of just shooting their anti-tank stuff.
Which melee build you've found to be the most succesful?
It focuses on Wardogs with thermal/glaive, the Abominable Constitution with some other bonus trait. I’ve tried Dark Forging when I play my Valiant Tyrant, I have tried Infamous Heredity when I do a few dual thermal knights and I’ve tried Pride Fueled Fury when I’m running a few Despoiler/Rampager varieties.
I’ve found Pride/Abominable to be the best combo when running between 6-9 Wardogs. They are a threat all game, can’t be left at low wounds with the assumption that they are useless. In fact they usually do so much work, I feel my bigger knights are just icing on the cake. It really messes with target priority for your opponents because 15” moving Wardogs are all within charge range turn 2 and are able to sling a decent number of melta shots at good range turn 1. If they ignore them to try to take down a big boy, they are then left trying to take on 6-9 fast dreadnaught equivalent models in their army.
Dark Eldar is a tough one in that they can get some good charges off on our Armigers and if they do, they trade up on us. I don’t have enough games into them knowing what the best plan of action is, but I do know I need to play them a lot differently than Marines or Ad Mech or Crons or any other army that doesn’t want me running at them with scary robots.
Does anyone use Dreadblades and if so, what kind of configurations you use and in which type of army lists? I'm interested in situations where Pacts are more useful than Household bonds. Few examples are gatling cannon despoilers, rampagers and magaera or styrix when using Endless torment.
I am making one of my lightning-lock Moirax a Dreadblade to get Knower of Profane Knowledge for the extra CP if they aren't doing much else. I'll give them the Forsaken and Warp Fugue damnations as those don't really bother a Moirax.
I think the other advantage that Dreadblades offer is access to the Rune relic and the 5++ invuln in close combat. The stand-out Pacts that I would want on a Questoris hull are Daemonic Vigor on a knight with shooting, Arch Fiend for the 6'' heroic intervention, and maybe Path to Glory if your meta has a lot of characters running around like tank commanders, ork kill rigs, other knights, C'tan, etc.
Hey to all ! I am finally going to play my first ever game with Knights !
This is my list:
Spoiler:
Iconoclast. Custom household: Abominable Con, Pride fuelled fury.
Knight Tyrant with harpoon. WL, trait: Infernal quest. Relic: Veil of Medrenguard. Vow of domination.
Knight Rampager. Relic: Gauntlet of Ascension.
Knight Despoiler with Fist, chainsword and Stormspear rocket pod.
War dogs with autocannon x2
I will play against Imperial guard and they know I will bring Knights.
Any advices ? especially about secondaries ? I was thinking about Grind them down, Bring it down and Engage.
That’s roughly 1640 points. Is the game 1650? Or are you playing power level?
A few things: the trait combination really only affects your two despoiler knights. Pride fueled fury isn’t good on the tyrant or the twin auto cannon guy. I think it would be worth swapping out the pride for Infamous Heredity to improve hitting with the harpoon or any of the meltas or the shield/siege breakers, hitting with an extra auto cannon or hitting with a rocket pod.
Brymm wrote: That’s roughly 1640 points. Is the game 1650? Or are you playing power level?
A few things: the trait combination really only affects your two despoiler knights. Pride fueled fury isn’t good on the tyrant or the twin auto cannon guy. I think it would be worth swapping out the pride for Infamous Heredity to improve hitting with the harpoon or any of the meltas or the shield/siege breakers, hitting with an extra auto cannon or hitting with a rocket pod.
My two cents !
I agree with Brymm wholeheartedly.
Pride-fuelled fury comes into play only when things are going poorly for two of your Knights. It doesn't help the others much at all. Endless Torment isn't a terrible Trait selection here either, as it would benefit both your Tyrant (greatly), and the War Dogs, making all of your shooting far less swingy in terms of consistency.
I'd additionally make one of your Knights a Dreadblade if for no other reason than to take 'Profane secrets' for the extra command point - it's effectively free after all.
The Knights you are fielding aren't the most competitive choices in terms of 'bang for your buck', but that's totally fine - sometimes that's down to models available or simply the type of game you want to have
Let us know how it goes, and good luck fellow spikey-knight enthusiast!
Brymm wrote: That’s roughly 1640 points. Is the game 1650? Or are you playing power level?
A few things: the trait combination really only affects your two despoiler knights. Pride fueled fury isn’t good on the tyrant or the twin auto cannon guy. I think it would be worth swapping out the pride for Infamous Heredity to improve hitting with the harpoon or any of the meltas or the shield/siege breakers, hitting with an extra auto cannon or hitting with a rocket pod.
My two cents !
I agree with Brymm wholeheartedly.
Pride-fuelled fury comes into play only when things are going poorly for two of your Knights. It doesn't help the others much at all. Endless Torment isn't a terrible Trait selection here either, as it would benefit both your Tyrant (greatly), and the War Dogs, making all of your shooting far less swingy in terms of consistency.
I'd additionally make one of your Knights a Dreadblade if for no other reason than to take 'Profane secrets' for the extra command point - it's effectively free after all.
The Knights you are fielding aren't the most competitive choices in terms of 'bang for your buck', but that's totally fine - sometimes that's down to models available or simply the type of game you want to have
Let us know how it goes, and good luck fellow spikey-knight enthusiast!
Thanks a lot !
Damn ! I think the points I looked at weren't up to date ! I just didn't want to shell out for the most recent chapter approved It's a 2000 point game. So maybe i''ll soup with Thousand sons. But it kind of feels unfair when I announced pure knights. But I don't have any other knights...
I think you are both right on the money for Fury. I was wondering if Bold Tyrants would be worth it just for the Tyrant's mega flamer ? If not I'll surely go for Heredity.
I'm afraid the Despoiler and the Rampager would be left dead in the water by turn 3 without Abominable to keep them moving.
Also, are the Iconoclast's two other vows worth it ? Because they seem very cool !
As for Dreadblades: is it ever worth it to roll for two boons or banes ?
Damn ! I think the points I looked at weren't up to date ! I just didn't want to shell out for the most recent chapter approved It's a 2000 point game. So maybe i''ll soup with Thousand sons. But it kind of feels unfair when I announced pure knights. But I don't have any other knights...
I think you are both right on the money for Fury. I was wondering if Bold Tyrants would be worth it just for the Tyrant's mega flamer ? If not I'll surely go for Heredity.
I'm afraid the Despoiler and the Rampager would be left dead in the water by turn 3 without Abominable to keep them moving.
Also, are the Iconoclast's two other vows worth it ? Because they seem very cool !
As for Dreadblades: is it ever worth it to roll for two boons or banes ?
I totally agree with the choice of Abominable Constitution. Your reasoning is solid, you've three Knights that either want to be in close combat, or that fight at short range. You'll let them dictate range easier with the extra movement, and you'll avoid them being bracketed and being prevented from closing.
Your War Dogs will enjoy it too, because with Autocannons, they ideally want to keep away from being involved in the assault phase.
I think usually, you want to pick traits that benefit the largest proportion of your army as possible, or that protect/enhance the units you know are key to your game plan. I don't think (as I suspect you already are thinking) Bold Tyrants does that in this list.
If it were me, I suspect I'd go for Infamous Heredity as Brymm suggested, or Harrying Packs. The latter only affects your War Dogs, but with their speed, range, and unwillingness to close, I suspect you'll be relying on them to some extent to work objectives. The extra fall-back benefits will really help them there.
Rolling for boons or banes is really dependant on the Knight in question. Some just won't benefit you, while others could hamper you particularly badly. On the other hand, there are several Banes that you can very safely place on say your Rampager - it won't care if it's BS is set to 6+ for a turn for example, so 'Warp-Rage' is almost like not having a 'Bane' at all.
I almost always find myself selecting them for this reason.
Bold Tyrants + A Constitution is a great combo for the Conflagration Cannon, Avenger Gatling Cannons, Heavy Stubbers, Rapid Fire Battle Cannons and even WarDog Autocannons. Anything AP2 or lower really benefits from the extra AP. Obviously jumping up on the plasma and melta type weapons is basically irrelevant.
A Constitution + Dark Forging is another interesting combo, extending out the range on some weapons that really benefit. Conflagration Cannon and all of the melta variants really stand out there.
Since infamous hereditary is only a one slot, you can run A Constitution + Infamous Heredity, every knight shoots, fights and moves, meaning every knight benefits from this combo always.
My two cents!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and if you own daemons, you can always summon with those left over points!
I had one last question: does the exploding 6s of the Rampager work with relics ?
It's profile says it only works with the chainsword and the gauntlet to exclude the feet.
In the end my original opponent couldn't come so I played against a replacement my FLGS found in time. He played DG and brought Mortarion I managed to score with engage in all turns but Mortarion caught my Tyrant warlord turn 2 and because of contagion I couldn't overwatch. He shredded him through veil and dominance in one fight phase
My rampager used the relic to crush a lord of contagion turn 1 and worked really well against Poxwalkers with vow of carnage ! He had 7 attacks on the charge by the end of the game . But the deathshroud's invulns were still to much for him. Still from turn 2 onward both my wardogs ran circles around deepstriking blightlords in my half of the table really proud of them !
In the end I got mulched, but I still had fun ! I'm eager for my next game !
If you were going to a tournament with an unknown meta, do you believe that it is worth taking the Tzeenchian Pyrothrone and 55 summoning points to give yourself the option of taking Warp Ritual? The downside (on top of not taking a different relic) is that you are locking yourself out of Abhor the Witch if you run into Tyranids, Demons, T-Sons, or Grey Knights.
Your last part is right: you don’t want to lock yourself out of those secondaries, we have a hard enough time already with our secondaries.
In fact, it might be worth looking at Warp Haunted hull to save on some of them mortals if Tsons and GK becomes super popular in your area.
Wish me luck!
Heading to the Michigan GT doubles event today, I’m playing 1k of Chaos Knights with my sons Salamanders.
He’s got the bodies and anti tank covered, I’m running House Herpetrax Knight Tyrant with conflagration and harpoon along with two shooting Wardogs, enough summoning for a beast of nurgle left over. I plan to zombie knight all over the place!
I’ll update today!
Brymm wrote: Wish me luck!
Heading to the Michigan GT doubles event today, I’m playing 1k of Chaos Knights with my sons Salamanders.
He’s got the bodies and anti tank covered, I’m running House Herpetrax Knight Tyrant with conflagration and harpoon along with two shooting Wardogs, enough summoning for a beast of nurgle left over. I plan to zombie knight all over the place!
I’ll update today!
Went 1-1 vs double orks and Ravenwing/Mechanicus. The Orks got first turn and were in our faces turn 1, we couldn’t recover, despite a tyrant explosion hitting 7 of their units, their klan kulture let them ignore mortals on a 5+, and some great rolls there lost it for us.
The second game involved a million melta and plasma shots from the Ravenwing basically bouncing off of the tyrant, then me getting an entire game of flaming, harpooning, melting and stomping bikes. My son managed to take out 3 Castellen robots, a squad of kataphrons, three admech characters and a handful of bikes too to a pretty commanding win!
Some random thoughts from my long weekend at the Michigan GT:
Knight Tyrants are good! All of my opponents rightly feared mine and played a very different game then they probably would normally.
Everyone played like the 4+ stand up trait would always work, which is good. The math on a Tyrant with the Bound to None trait is straight up 33.3/33.3/33.3% between dying, not exploding and then standing up, dying and exploding, and dying and not exploding or standing up with no rerolls anywhere. The only tweak is Spiteful Demise to basically up your chance to explode to 75%.
Tyrant explosions are brutal and pretty frequent if you die.
Auto cannon shots from armigers are a lot better than I gave them credit for.
Armigers die pretty easily to a lot of different profiles of shooting, and since they don’t have access to the same amount of defensive buffs, they need to be hidden by obscuring terrain.
Yes, it makes our life much easier. Knights just got a pretty nice buff.
I think chaos knight lists with 1 or 2 big knights and many wardogs are pretty good now. If we only run 1 or 2 knights, we can still put obsec on 1 of the knights, and we don't give up much points on the kill titanic secondary. So the only thing we do give up in secondaries is bring it down (kill vehicles). In exchange, we have multiple hardy obsec counts as 5 models wardogs running around all over the place. Its a good list. We can potentially absolutely dominate on primary. And we then hope to at least even out in secondaries.
One problem chaos knights have is that we don't have much good secondaries. Its mostly kill secondaries and engage on all fronts, and possibly to the last if we run into an army that cannot take down knights. But now that all our wardogs are obsec and worth 5 models, I think stranglehold is actually a good consideration now. Throw one wardog and a knight onto the center objective and you now counts have 15 models plus obsec on the point. It is hard to shift a knight plus a wardog from one objective.
Stranglehold has now become a lot more interesting to take. I think knight armies are super interesting now.
Yes, it makes our life much easier. Knights just got a pretty nice buff.
I think chaos knight lists with 1 or 2 big knights and many wardogs are pretty good now. If we only run 1 or 2 knights, we can still put obsec on 1 of the knights, and we don't give up much points on the kill titanic secondary. So the only thing we do give up in secondaries is bring it down (kill vehicles). In exchange, we have multiple hardy obsec counts as 5 models wardogs running around all over the place. Its a good list. We can potentially absolutely dominate on primary. And we then hope to at least even out in secondaries.
One problem chaos knights have is that we don't have much good secondaries. Its mostly kill secondaries and engage on all fronts, and possibly to the last if we run into an army that cannot take down knights. But now that all our wardogs are obsec and worth 5 models, I think stranglehold is actually a good consideration now. Throw one wardog and a knight onto the center objective and you now counts have 15 models plus obsec on the point. It is hard to shift a knight plus a wardog from one objective.
Stranglehold has now become a lot more interesting to take. I think knight armies are super interesting now.
I had a fun game against a combined 1,800 pt SW and AM list this week at my local gaming club. The AM detachment was a Spearhead tank Detachment of Leman Russes and a Manticore. The SW detachment was Bjorn, some Wulfen and a bunch of guys on wolves, including the Warlord. I was playing my usual Iconoclast list of a Desecrator, a Despoiler, two Autocannon War Dogs and four Thermal Spear War Dogs. We played Retrieval Mission from the BRB.
I took Endless torment, Vow of Dominance and The Veil of Medrengard to give the titanic knights some resilience against Titan Slayers and improve shooting across the board
Turn 1 I went first, walked forward onto the objectives on my half of the table, and split fire between the SW and AM.
Turn 2, with the SW advancing, I fell back and concentrated fire on them.
Turn 3 I walked forward onto the objectives again, firing on the AM.
Turn 4 I finished them off.
Turn 5 was just collecting VPs. The Manticore was spent but remained behind a building on the far side of the table that I couldn't get to. The final score was 57-32. I scored well on Bring it Down and Attrition. Both titanic knights were still standing at the end, albeit on their final bracket. My only casualties were two War Dogs.
My favourite moment was when the SW warlord was killed by Overwatch from the Despoiler. Endless Torment plus Trail of Destruction is brutal with an Avenger Gatling Cannon and Heavy Flamer
dreadblade wrote: I had a fun game against a combined 1,800 pt SW and AM list this week at my local gaming club. The AM detachment was a Spearhead tank Detachment of Leman Russes and a Manticore. The SW detachment was Bjorn, some Wulfen and a bunch of guys on wolves, including the Warlord. I was playing my usual Iconoclast list of a Desecrator, a Despoiler, two autocannon War Dogs and four thermal spear War Dogs. We played Retrieval Mission from the BRB.
I took endless torment, vow of dominance and the veil of medrengard to give the titanic knights some resilience against titan slayers and improve shooting across the board
Turn 1 I went first, walked forward onto the objectives on my half of the table, and split fire between the SW and AM.
Turn 2, with the SW advancing, I fell back and concentrated fire on them.
Turn 3 I walked forward onto the objectives again, firing on the AM.
Turn 4 I finished them off.
Turn 5 was just collecting VPs. The Manticore was spent but remained behind a building on the far side of the table that I couldn't get to. The final score was 57-32. I scored well on bring it down and attrition. Both titanic knights were still standing at the end, albeit on their final bracket. My only casualties were two war dogs.
My favourite moment was when the SW warlord was killed by overwatch from the Despoiler. Endless torment plus trail of destruction is brutal with an avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer
Thanks for the report !
Just a question: what do you think about the Desecrator compared to just taking another Despoiler in a War dog heavy list running Iconoclast ? Is the War dog aura easy to use on the Desy ? Does the Laser Destructor feel good to use ?
Just a question: what do you think about the Desecrator compared to just taking another Despoiler in a War dog heavy list running Iconoclast ? Is the War dog aura easy to use on the Desy ? Does the Laser Destructor feel good to use ?
The Laser Destructor is cool, and in this game I took Corrupted Heirlooms so I could take the Diamonas (flat 3 shots, S16, so damaging a Leman Russ on a 2+). The Thunderstrike Gauntlet can also be fun too if you can engage with a vehicle.
You only get to use the War Dog aura some of the time (due to positioning), but it's a nice bonus when you do.
Just a question: what do you think about the Desecrator compared to just taking another Despoiler in a War dog heavy list running Iconoclast ? Is the War dog aura easy to use on the Desy ? Does the Laser Destructor feel good to use ?
The Laser Destructor is cool, and in this game I took Corrupted Heirlooms so I could take the Diamonas (flat 3 shots, S16, so damaging a Leman Russ on a 2+). The Thunderstrike Gauntlet can also be fun too if you can engage with a vehicle.
You only get to use the War Dog aura some of the time (due to positioning), but it's a nice bonus when you do.
I am currently running 2x Magaera, 3x melee Wardogs with Meltaguns, and 4x Moirax with double Lightning Locks.
Would I be better off running them as House Khomentis or as a custom house? House Khomentis gives me access to the Warlord trait Dread Hunter, which lets me designate one weapon once per game and give it +1 Damage as well as full reroll hits and wounds. On a Magaera lightning cannon that's amazing. Otherwise it makes me much more resistant to bracketing by giving me +1 Attack and +1 to Hit in Melee when under half wounds. It also grants a 5+++ vs 'wounds in the psychic phase' Overall its pretty good!
The Custom Household would still be Infernal, but would feature Harrying Packs to allow my Armigers to fall back and shoot OR charge, and Infamous Heredity for a reroll one hit roll each time I'm chosen to shoot, fight, or overwatch. This would benefit my Moirax much more and even the War Dogs would benefit with their swingy melta weapons. I'm not sure if its worth giving up the punch from Dread Hunter though.
bmsattler wrote: I am currently running 2x Magaera, 3x melee Wardogs with Meltaguns, and 4x Moirax with double Lightning Locks.
Would I be better off running them as House Khomentis or as a custom house? House Khomentis gives me access to the Warlord trait Dread Hunter, which lets me designate one weapon once per game and give it +1 Damage as well as full reroll hits and wounds. On a Magaera lightning cannon that's amazing. Otherwise it makes me much more resistant to bracketing by giving me +1 Attack and +1 to Hit in Melee when under half wounds. It also grants a 5+++ vs 'wounds in the psychic phase' Overall its pretty good!
The Custom Household would still be Infernal, but would feature Harrying Packs to allow my Armigers to fall back and shoot OR charge, and Infamous Heredity for a reroll one hit roll each time I'm chosen to shoot, fight, or overwatch. This would benefit my Moirax much more and even the War Dogs would benefit with their swingy melta weapons. I'm not sure if its worth giving up the punch from Dread Hunter though.
I haven't played with the new OS Dogs and Titans, but isn't Harrying Packs better now that it allows us to potentially reposition our dogs to snatch objectives ?
The new primaries and tweaked secondaries seem to be a boost for a Chaos knights army (and knights in general). We have far less problems with killing stuff while people will tend to have a headache trying to kill knights.
Also, its a lot harder for lists to stuff like Retrieve data now. And take no prisoners now give more points, which is again a positive for us because we tend to take kill objectives. Also bring it down now gives more VP too.
I think with the kill secondaries buffed for us, and knights now quite able to take stranglehold secondary, so while we are still limited in the secondaries we can take, we at least won't start off at a massive disadvantage now in terms of secondaries. It used to be that there was literally no good third secondary pick. Now, its much better for us.
The one area that is harder is that the mission secondaries are no longer available. We are pretty much forced to take a kill secondary, even against armies that don't give up many points for them.
Otherwise, I agree that our combination of speed and new holding ability helps with the mission.
bmsattler wrote: The one area that is harder is that the mission secondaries are no longer available. We are pretty much forced to take a kill secondary, even against armies that don't give up many points for them.
Otherwise, I agree that our combination of speed and new holding ability helps with the mission.
We were forced to take a kill secondary as our third secondary before this change anyway. But stuff like retrieve got harder, while the kill secondaries got easier (like give more points now). So, its an overall buff for us. I mean, short of a total skewed vehicle list, I think the average army could give a decent number of points for No Prisoners now.
bmsattler wrote: The one area that is harder is that the mission secondaries are no longer available. We are pretty much forced to take a kill secondary, even against armies that don't give up many points for them.
Otherwise, I agree that our combination of speed and new holding ability helps with the mission.
We were forced to take a kill secondary as our third secondary before this change anyway. But stuff like retrieve got harder, while the kill secondaries got easier (like give more points now). So, its an overall buff for us. I mean, short of a total skewed vehicle list, I think the average army could give a decent number of points for No Prisoners now.
so what did you take as third if there wasn't good mission specific? As before it would be something+mission+kill. Now then something+kill+...umm what?
Plenty of mission specific ones were good ones(some even basically auto 15). Now you need another secondary for that.
No difference if you play scenario where secondary is crap. Problem if your secondary choices bad and scenario was one where secondary was good.
I thought it looked more like parts from a forgefiend. oh well, those parts look similar. Both the vents and pipes could come from a chaos knight or a forgefiend. And the weapon could be from a forgefiend or maybe a new weapon for a new chaos knight.
dreadblade wrote: I think I'm going with the rumour of a despoiler upgrade sprue for the existing Desecrator/Rampager kit, as well as a new War Dog model.
Makes sense since they basically all have the same chassis anyway.
But it'd still be somewhat disappointing you know ? I really wanted it to be some kind of a mid range War dog.
bmsattler wrote: I'll be moderately disappointed if this is not a new datasheet but instead a Chaos sculpt of a Styrix.
The Volkite is more likely a Chaos sculpt of a Moirax. The shoulder armour and exhaust stacks earlier in the video are the existing Desecrator/Rampager type.
bmsattler wrote: I'll be moderately disappointed if this is not a new datasheet but instead a Chaos sculpt of a Styrix.
The Volkite is more likely a Chaos sculpt of a Moirax. The shoulder armour and exhaust stacks earlier in the video are the existing Desecrator/Rampager type.
Isn't the Moirax closer in size to the Desecrator/Rampager ? The Moirax is the War Dog type.
We're saying it's two different models in the video - a new Desecrator/Rampager type (possibly just a Despoiler upgrade sprue) and a new War Dog type with Volkite (like a Moirax).
dreadblade wrote: We're saying it's two different models in the video - a new Desecrator/Rampager type (possibly just a Despoiler upgrade sprue) and a new War Dog type with Volkite (like a Moirax).
Any thoughts on the current meta? What is working for you? What are your plans vs Crusher Stampede or Tau?
I've been having reasonable success with a Castelan/Tyrant, Magaera, 4x Warglaive Wardogs, and 2x Lightning Lock Moirax. I'm flip-flopping a lot as to what house to run them as, between the two Infernal houses. I think that we'll need War Dogs for actions with some of the new missions, and Tau are really set up to just pick a Knight per turn and kill it dead. I'm considering trading out the Magaera for three more Lightning Lock Moirax to just hose them down with more anti-horde fire and have more bodies out on the board.
bmsattler wrote: Any thoughts on the current meta? What is working for you? What are your plans vs Crusher Stampede or Tau?
I've been having reasonable success with a Castelan/Tyrant, Magaera, 4x Warglaive Wardogs, and 2x Lightning Lock Moirax. I'm flip-flopping a lot as to what house to run them as, between the two Infernal houses. I think that we'll need War Dogs for actions with some of the new missions, and Tau are really set up to just pick a Knight per turn and kill it dead. I'm considering trading out the Magaera for three more Lightning Lock Moirax to just hose them down with more anti-horde fire and have more bodies out on the board.
Personally I'm waiting for our dex to drop (Rumoured for Mars IIRC) and I still have a Knight Atropos to finish.
With Wardogs making the the bulk of all lists, is the Desecrator worth looking at? I know most people are using Moriaxes but what does like 9 melee cheap dogs with Const/Pride with a Desecrator? You still have room for two Moriaxes with LLs.
I think it's worth looking at, but I like the Imperial Preceptor more. Something I have found challenging with Knights of all types is keeping enough War Dogs near the Desecrator to make it worth taking. I often want to spread out to take advantage of shooting angles and not stay bunched up in a ball around the buffing unit, even one as big as the Desecrator.
I pulled out my knights for a game against necrons and narrowly lost (by 3), but man, it was a blast.
Knights are, for me, still just so fun. My favorite, and most effective knight is usually the rampager. Run it with the house lucaris warlord trait for fighting first, plus the khornate target relic and go to town on something!
I have found leaving 150 points or so for summoning to be huge. Furies and Heralds of Slannesh can screen, hold backfield objectives, give you psychic secondaries or smite, and generally let you play the new missions. The hard part is pre-planning the character to summon them. Deployment is easy to mess up.
I don't think they are a legitimate leak, there are a couple things that don't work for me. That said, they do address a few things that it would be nice to see.
In order to be competitive, I think that Knights need:
A: more durability. It is too easy to just pick a Knights army up off of the table, and we don't have the option to use terrain defensively to stop it.
B: The ability to play the mission better. Things like the abilities to do more secondaries and not be tied down to the objectives as much.
C: less variation in our guns. Thermal Cannons can blow a knight off the table with one shot, and can fail to kill one space marine with the same shot.
I think it's interesting that the new Questoris is a psyker. That kinda implies that we'll get our own psychic powers. If its stuck with Smite like the Pyrothrone that might be worse than not being a psyker at all.
It will be interesting to see how it compares to the Styrix.
The War Dogs are also... I'll have to see how it compares to the Chainglaive version, which is already pretty good in close combat. The pod on top kinda looks like a missile pod, but I suspect it will be something like an assault launcher from Space Marines.
Edit: They also mentioned that some of the Knights weapons will compare to the Tau Stormsurge, which is OK? Honestly Knights are already fairly killy, its the mission and survival that we're bad at.
Knight Tyrant [32 PL, -2CP, 625pts]: 2x Twin Meltagun, 6. Aura of Terror, Character (Traitoris Lance), Conflagration cannon and Thundercoil harpoon, Titanic feet, 2x Twin siegebreaker cannons [30pts], Two Shieldbreaker missiles, Veil of Medrengard, Vow of Dominance [-2CP], Warlord
War Dogs [16 PL, 310pts]
. War Dog [8 PL, 155pts]: Heavy stubber, Two War Dog autocannons [20pts]
. War Dog [8 PL, 155pts]: Heavy stubber, Two War Dog autocannons [20pts]
You have some good units against Custodes infantry and a couple good counter-strikers in the Atapos and Rampager. You don't have much board presence. Are you looking to summon with the last 130 points? Furies would give you some basic screens, and you can make them Tzeench for a 4++ which is better than Nurgle's 5+++ against Custodes and their multi-damage weapons.
With Custodes I try to kill their mobile elements first. You can activate one of the War Dogs with Skyreaper Protocols to get rerolls to hit against Fly targets, and if they use their stratagem against that you have Trail of Destruction available for the Atropos. Even if they don't take the Wardog bait, you can still split fire to leave them less appealing targets.
Try to use your speed and range advantages to engage part of their army at a time, and pick away over the first couple turns. Knights are able to hurt Custodes more than most, but it takes time. Your job will be to figure out how to make that time while not falling too far behind. Another thing that I've done is reserve a pair of War Dogs and take behind enemy lines as a secondary. Custodes have limited board presence as well and don't turn around very well. A couple of shooty War Dogs in their deployment zone is hard for them to reach.
I think that the Tyrant is going to be of limited value against Custodes, and I'd try to use it as bait for his heavy hitters. The Atropos and War Dogs will likely be your biggest killers. You need volume of damage 3 shooting to get through their defenses.
bmsattler wrote: You have some good units against Custodes infantry and a couple good counter-strikers in the Atapos and Rampager. You don't have much board presence. Are you looking to summon with the last 130 points? Furies would give you some basic screens, and you can make them Tzeench for a 4++ which is better than Nurgle's 5+++ against Custodes and their multi-damage weapons.
With Custodes I try to kill their mobile elements first. You can activate one of the War Dogs with Skyreaper Protocols to get rerolls to hit against Fly targets, and if they use their stratagem against that you have Trail of Destruction available for the Atropos. Even if they don't take the Wardog bait, you can still split fire to leave them less appealing targets.
Try to use your speed and range advantages to engage part of their army at a time, and pick away over the first couple turns. Knights are able to hurt Custodes more than most, but it takes time. Your job will be to figure out how to make that time while not falling too far behind. Another thing that I've done is reserve a pair of War Dogs and take behind enemy lines as a secondary. Custodes have limited board presence as well and don't turn around very well. A couple of shooty War Dogs in their deployment zone is hard for them to reach.
I think that the Tyrant is going to be of limited value against Custodes, and I'd try to use it as bait for his heavy hitters. The Atropos and War Dogs will likely be your biggest killers. You need volume of damage 3 shooting to get through their defenses.
Thanks for the advices ! Yeah I thought about summoning. I would've liked Plaguebearers for tar pits but I don't have any painted . I don't have Furies either but I have a bunch of pink horrors that I'll stick on objective.
As for our new knight: I wonder if we'll get the same spell list as the coming CSM codex or if we'll have something brand new.
I'm going for more of a dark gothic theme for my Knights instead of squiggly demon-bits. I'm painting up some sisters of battle in ghost themes to proxy for my summons.
Yeah. T'was part of the thingamajig with Belakor IIRC.
By the way. I had my game against Custodes Wednesday. Lost 56 to 58. It was pretty fun. Had 1st turn and managed to score a turn 1 charge by full tilting my Rampager. He managed to down 4 bikes and one bike Captain thanks to the Khornate effigy The Atrapos did some great work too !
bmsattler wrote: I'm going for more of a dark gothic theme for my Knights instead of squiggly demon-bits. I'm painting up some sisters of battle in ghost themes to proxy for my summons.
I will say that I abstained from chaos-y bits on most of mine, though I did manage to get a couple DP faceplates for my melee War Dogs. Color changing carapaces are fun though...
bmsattler wrote: I'm going for more of a dark gothic theme for my Knights instead of squiggly demon-bits. I'm painting up some sisters of battle in ghost themes to proxy for my summons.
I will say that I abstained from chaos-y bits on most of mine, though I did manage to get a couple DP faceplates for my melee War Dogs. Color changing carapaces are fun though...
Lots of spikes and chains don't transport well either
I grabbed the box o Skulls, and stuck them on every Fleur de leis and armor plates on my Knights, so they're suitably Grim Dark, and can be played as Loyal or Chaos via swapping Tilt plates.
I'm scanning for news several times a day. I'm really hoping that the new codexes will combine with the balance datasheets to make games even but flavorful.
Any1 got any tips when magnetizing the joints of weapons on knights? Like to prevent them from flopping around due to weight? maybe adding some typhus corrosion or something to the joint to add some friction?
Also any of the FW knights yall will think still see play after the new dex drops? Was thinking bout picking one up for gigs and looking for a project.
Dr.Duck wrote: Any1 got any tips when magnetizing the joints of weapons on knights? Like to prevent them from flopping around due to weight? maybe adding some typhus corrosion or something to the joint to add some friction?
Also any of the FW knights yall will think still see play after the new dex drops? Was thinking bout picking one up for gigs and looking for a project.
Personally, I don't think that there is much point to magnetizing a knight unless you actually have options available to you. When I did my War Dogs, there wasn't any point when they only had autocannons or that other thing.it remains to be seen as to what the new kit will have.
When it comes to the larger knights, I only magnetized the elbow joints. The waist wasn't glued down to allow for limited articulation and to ease storage. On the Tyrant, I did the same thing with the carapace weapons that I did with the War Dog's Stubbers and Meltaguns; I cleaned the holes that they attach to and trusted in gravity.
I will cut off the upper arm section that is supposed to go inside the gun/lower arm and glue the magnets to the upper arm stump and the hole in the lower arm where the insert used to go. It's worked well for me so far.
And yes, I know morale is often a waste. But if -1 ld and -1 combat attrition is the starting point, you might be able to rack up to a worthwhile point.
I agree that the leadership stuff is situational. It can be good, and it can be utterly worthless. I strongly suspect you'll be able to build into it more with Warlord traits and Relics and such, but you'll be vulnerable to armies like Tyranids that just say 'no.'
There are other options in the army-wide rule thankfully, including the ability to take away ObSec or make your army more survivable. It will require careful timing and the ability to predict where the game will go a turn or two in advance. They have spoilers for the whole chart in the News & Rumors section.
bmsattler wrote: I agree that the leadership stuff is situational. It can be good, and it can be utterly worthless. I strongly suspect you'll be able to build into it more with Warlord traits and Relics and such, but you'll be vulnerable to armies like Tyranids that just say 'no.'
There are other options in the army-wide rule thankfully, including the ability to take away ObSec or make your army more survivable. It will require careful timing and the ability to predict where the game will go a turn or two in advance. They have spoilers for the whole chart in the News & Rumors section.
Tyranids are, luckily, shockingly vulnerable to the Darkness and Despair tables. They've got really bad leadership stats, so the base reduction will do a good job of making sure they aren't passing any Dread tests to do actions or shoot/charge things they care about.
One area I thought was interesting was the army creation side. 1-2 Titanic or up to three Armigers in a Superheavy Detachment returns 3 CP. 3 Titanic or 6 Armigers and a Titanic returns 6. That will change up how some lists are made.
What are your favorite combinations? For me, there are two interesting parts that might not stand out at first glance.
Take a Knight Rampager. 2+ WS, 5 attacks base. Give it the Diabolous (+1 attack, reroll 1's to hit in melee) and Eager for the Kill (+1 advance/charge, +1 attack while partially within enemy's deployment zone) Warlord traits and the Teeth that Hunger relic (+1 attack with this weapon, +2 Str in both Strike and Sweep profiles). Make it Frenzied Invaders Iconoclast House (Iconoclast = +1 attack and AP in the first round of combat, Frenzied = exploding 6's to hit in melee). Give it one of the Mark's of Slannesh to unlock the Murderbliss stratagem (+1 attack when attacking 6+ models, +2 attacks if 11+ enemy unit). Activate the Reap and Rend stratagem so that your sweep profile is 4 hit rolls per attack (can't reroll hits). That's 44 hit rolls that explode on 6s, Str 10, AP -5, 2 damage.
The Slannesh part is fairly situational. You could swap over to Khorne for double exploding 6s instead. The two attacks from Murderbliss are fairly situational, and the Throne Mechanicum of Skulls is more universally applicable.
The House Vextrix relic Heretek Power Core gives +2 movement and +1 damage on melee weapons unless its the sweep profile. The Electroscourge and Balemace profiles of the new Knight Abominant are not labled as sweep but still offer the multiple swings per attack.
There are a few ways from the codex to make our knights more tanky.
Put the 4++ relic on a Abhorrent class will make it 4++.
There is another relic that gives a Abhorrent class a 2+ save.
Tyrants also get 2+ save.
Can also take Idolators trait to make all AP 1 become AP 0. I think there is another one that gives all of knights light cover.
But some new ones that are significant come from the dark god blessings and psychic.
There is a psychic power to give a knight 5+ feel no pain on a WC6. That is extremely good and not hard to get off. You can make one knight have this psychic by just making him favored by Tzeetch so that he becomes a psycker and gets one of our new psyker powers. This alone makes a massive difference.
I would say this is better than the Nurgle blessing which started at 6+ FNP and we need to kill a fair number of models before we get to 5+ FNP. A tyrant needs to kill 15 models to become favoured. In comparision, its far easier to cast a WC6 spell to instantly get a 5+ FNP.
The other blessing is the one featured by the community. The dark God blessing that doesn't allow for any rerolls against us. That is definitely super good.
House wise, there is also the house that grants us +4W on our big knights, which is not a small thing. Suddenly, all our big knights have 28W! and our tyrants have 32W!
So, between the relics, blessings and all. I think we can easily make 2 big knights super tanky.
Like if we the +4W household bond. And a Tzeentch tyrant with the 5+ FNP spell. And then another unaligned Knight with the 2+ armor save relic and the Dark God Blessing.
Now we will have a 32W Tyrant with a 2+ save and a 5+ FNP. As well as a 28W knight with a 2+ armor save and people cannot reroll against it. And when favored, is even harder to kill.
And we can then just use 2CP to through on 4++ invul on which ever knight is getting the most high AP heat. Alternatively, if everyone is going so much high AP that even a 2+ save doesn't help as much. Then swop the 2+ save relic for the 4++ invul relic. Then we can make the tyrant 4++ with a 5+++ FNP while our knight is also 4++ all the time and no rerolls allowed.
I find that once we have made a super tanky or two super tanky knights. We can sort of use the new Harbringers of dread abilities that our entire army gets. Not only do we decrease the enemy leadership, and we can boost this aura to 15 inches. Darkness Harbringer abilities has interesting things like give enemy -1 to hit at range, in melee, and as soon as turn 2, force them to roll a dread test, and if they fail, they have to shoot at the nearest target instead.
This is not insignificant if we have made a tanky knight. If that dread harbringer ability goes off, enemy may find himself directing most of his firewpower into a Tyrant or a knight that has a 2+ save, a 4++ invul, and either cannot reroll or has a 5+++ FNP as well.
Theoratically the tankiest knight you can make is to take the new knight Abominant which is already aa default psyker. Then you can take the Dark god blessing for no rerolls. and the relic for the 2+ armor save, and the +4W household trait,
So now, this knight Abominant has a 2+ save, allows no rerolls, gets 5+ FNP from psyhic and has 28W. And finally, you can use 2CP to give it a 4++ invul as well. Is going to be a nightmare trying to take such a knight down.
So... imagine forcing your opponent using the new harbringer ability to shoot at such a knight instead of your wardogs. He will cry.
You can also take an Infernal household to give you Ramshackle (-1 damage from Str 7 and below weapons) and there is a -1 damage in melee stratagem. The two don't stack, but its nice to have those options.
House Vextrix (Infernal) has Favor of the Dark Mechanicum for +2 wounds and regen 1d3 wounds per turn, and Infernal has the stratagem Bind the Souls of the Departed to possibly regen wounds in combat. You can also take a relic that upgrades the pterrorshades on an Abominant or the new War Dogs to grant a 4+++ vs mortals and when enemy models flee due to morale close to you you can regen up to 3 wounds, one per model that fled.
I'm honestly looking forward to testing the new Dread abilities to see how the new morale stuff works. I also think the Darkness tree for additional protection of our forces is the best way to go, but it will be neat to see if it helps against Tyranids for example. Its not a moral test, and they tend to have fairly awful leadership when they aren't immune to morale. Giving them half charge distance could be big.
I'm not sure. Traditionally I would go with 2x big knights and 6x war dogs. However, if you give up on Favors you can get 3x big knights with thermal cannons and 5x war dogs at the 145 point range. Or one big knight and like 10 war dogs.
I think part of it will be play style and what models you have available.
bmsattler wrote: I'm not sure. Traditionally I would go with 2x big knights and 6x war dogs. However, if you give up on Favors you can get 3x big knights with thermal cannons and 5x war dogs at the 145 point range. Or one big knight and like 10 war dogs.
I think part of it will be play style and what models you have available.
At this level, the number of Knights should not limit your army selection. My question is more from an optimization point of view.
And how many shooty and cc oriented War Dogs? I'd opt for an equal number.
I -really- like the Stalker with the Chaincannon and Chaintalon. Add in a couple Helverin's with their improved AP -2 and you've got a lot of anti-horde and anti-elite shooting. Then it's up to the big knights to do the anti-tank with things like a Tyrant or the Desecrator's Laser Destructor.
Right now I've got three ideas for lists I'd like to try.
3x Thermal Cannon/Melee weapon Despoilers and 5x Stalkers with Chaincannon/Chaintalon
Thermal Cannon/Melee Despoiler, Desecrator, 3x Executioners, 4x Stalkers Chaincannon/Chaintalon and some Favors
Abominant, 3x Executioners, 4x Stalkers, 3x Huntsman
Edit: This house would be interesting with Dark Forging Infernal Bond. Heavy 4, Str6, D2 Stubbers are basically another heavy gun. No AP, but you can still go fishing for 1s against marines.
According to the leaks, a few of the things we are talking about, like the 4++ relic isn’t available to tyrant classes, neither is the rotate ion shield I believe. Worth looking over in detail when we get a real book in hand.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’m right about the Veil of M, it’s “Abbhorent or WarDog class”
Favors are surprisingly difficult to fit in. I keep making lists that come out to exactly 2000 points and realizing that I won't have any marks unless I drop a whole War Dog to do so.
bmsattler wrote: Favors are surprisingly difficult to fit in. I keep making lists that come out to exactly 2000 points and realizing that I won't have any marks unless I drop a whole War Dog to do so.
But the favors are pretty important. From what I can see. A lot of the best defensive abilities we can add to our knights come from Favors.
The Dreadblade bond is applied to the unit. Dreadblades do not get the Tratoris Ambition of Infernal or Iconoclast, just the bond. They do not get access to Warlord Traits or Relics unless your Warlord is a Chaos Knight.
The Infernal Bond Biomechanical Fusion specifically grants a Dreadblade the Infernal ambition and gives them a 4+++ vs the mortals generated from the Infernal boost (and that only). That would be my go-to for a group of Executioner War Dogs, which I agree would be an excellent ally for Thousand Sons!
Edit: I don't think there is anything forbidding a Dreadblade from taking a Favor of the Dark Gods? If not, 15 points is a pretty good deal for Mirror of Fates and a CP regen option and would be fairly fluffy. Warp Born Stalker is also 15 points and would give you the option of deep-striking one to threaten back-field campers or just get a good line of fire with a guaranteed turn of shooting.
Hello stompy tactical types! We have another codex leak so it is a great chance to play a practice game. This time my Tyranids are taking on the new Chaos Knights. What tricks does this new knights codex bring to the table? Can the swarm continue against an army with no biomass?
Something I just thought of. You can make a Tanky Abhorent melee focused class knight but give it defensive dark god blessings and relic. Charge him into close combat right into the middle of your opponent's army. He will smash and kill stuff and then when he finally dies, use the 2CP for the strategem Spiteful Demise.
This strategem has now been changed. Its now auto explodes, we don't need to roll. So your melee knight is already tanky, has drawn a lot of firepower because it was stompy and it charged straight in and has to be dealt with. And now, after it dies, it auto explodes at a 2d6 radius causing d6 mortal wounds all around (likely right in the middle of your opponent's army).
This sounds really fun.
Just to expand on this. You can give a Knight Rampager (400 points) the Tzeentch Pyrothrone favor for 35 points. Then go House Vertix. Give him the Vertrix relic for +2" movement and +1 melee dmg. Since House Vertrix is Infernal, you can use the Infernal ambition ability, take d3 MW and get the +3" movement. Warlord trait is flexible. But Eager for the Kill gives you +1 advance and +1 to charge.
A Rampager has 12 inch movement default. So, Turn 1, you can move 12+2+3 = 17 inches, and your warlord trait gives you +1 to your charge. A turn 1 charge is pretty achievable with this kind of movement. So, cast the 5+ FNP psyhic power, and then move 17 inches and then charge into your opponent's gills. Absorb all the firepower he can throw at you and if you survive, continue killing. If you don't, then autoexplode right in his lines for d6MW in a 2d6 radius.
Or just go forgo protection from Tzeetch and go Khorne Rampager with the reroll charge blessing (Throne Mechanicum of skulls). So, now you have a movement of 17 inches and a rerollable charge with +1".
So unfortunately, it’s clear that the most competitive way to run this army is go 3 abominants: This is boring and not good from $$$ perspective, but it’s the truth. Here’s why. For 30 points more than standard knights, abominants get…
1) A much better melee profile than any non-pure melee knights, and even then you can push an abominants melee to be better than a rampager by being Khorne blessed/ stratagems/ warlord traits/ relics. Sure he’s got 3 base attacks and can’t use “heavy” attacks, but that doesn’t matter when he gets D3 throw-away attacks at other knights sweep profiles and his main attacks are at D3 vs D2 for everybody else. That D3 vs D2 makes all the difference, so much so that even if everyone else S10, AP -5, 2D I’d still prefer the abominants melee. We live in -1 D, hard to wound, high wound meta. You need D3. Speaking of…
2) The abominants shooting is about equivalent as other knights his size. It’s not fantastic, but neither is any other knights shooting. Being likely to do at least 3 wounds per weapons is fine rate in today’s meta. This is the least exciting standpoint of his kit, but I’d still trade 30 points for his improved melee vs the other knights and this shooting. So the last point is basically free.
3) He’s a good pysker. Even if you can’t cast the 2 standout powers with every knight in 3 abominants list, you can still use our special smite, and smite with all 3. That helps bolster the abominants range output to be solid, and now better than the other knights. The fact that they also get the 2 standout powers and a deny (great in this Tyranids meta) is just gravy.
It’s so weird that the new model nobody owns yet seems to be strictly better than the old knights people do actually own… Oh well I’m sure that wasn’t intentional.
Hmm, I don't know. With armor of contempt, Abominants are only good if they are Iconoclast. Otherwise, terminators will just laugh at the AP2.
I actually think Desecrator with a reaper chainsword is good. You can use strategems to get 4 hits per swing. And the basic Desecrator is only 400 points? Then add a blessing of the dark gods.
3 Abominants is overkill. You can only cast that FNP psychic once. Its not like you can get that on all 3 Abominants. And if you want that 5+ FNP power on something other than an Abominant, you can just give the blessing Pyrothrone to the titanic you want it on.
Salt donkey wrote: So unfortunately, it’s clear that the most competitive way to run this army is go 3 abominants: This is boring and not good from $$$ perspective, but it’s the truth. Here’s why. For 30 points more than standard knights, abominants get…
Personally, I find our big knights underwhelming. Wardogs are much better. I'd be surprised if you seen many lists running two big knights let alone three. My list runs one big knight and ten wardogs. The Abominant is ok. But personally I prefer the desecrator, sure his ranged weapon is swingy, but he's WS2+ and his re-roll 1s in shooting aura is great on the wardogs.
Currently, I run iconoclast with worthy offerings (+1 to hit against vehicles, monsters and characters). That makes the Desecrator BS2+ against most of the things it wants to shoot, with the relic laser destructor thats 3 shots hitting on 2s. I normally, keep him in reserve (as my only big knight), comes on turn 2 kills something to trigger favour of the dark gods and he's good to go. Normally you can't shoot anything turn 1 anyway and with rotate ion shields being 2CP it's cheaper to reserve a big knight than rotate twice (if you go second, you skip two of your opponents shooting phases, whilst only missing one of yours). Desecrator is 20PL, a brigand is 8PL, so for 3CP you can put both in reserve (depends what blessing you take as most of them are 2PL, but you get the idea).
I'm just curious, does anyone know if the new War Dog models are about the same height as the AOS Ghorghon/Cygor model? I'm asking them because I'm thinking of kitbashing some Ghorgons with knight weapons to try to recreate the Tyrant/Cyber Demons from the Doom games.
Salt donkey wrote: So unfortunately, it’s clear that the most competitive way to run this army is go 3 abominants: This is boring and not good from $$$ perspective, but it’s the truth. Here’s why. For 30 points more than standard knights, abominants get…
Personally, I find our big knights underwhelming. Wardogs are much better. I'd be surprised if you seen many lists running two big knights let alone three. My list runs one big knight and ten wardogs. The Abominant is ok. But personally I prefer the desecrator, sure his ranged weapon is swingy, but he's WS2+ and his re-roll 1s in shooting aura is great on the wardogs.
Currently, I run iconoclast with worthy offerings (+1 to hit against vehicles, monsters and characters). That makes the Desecrator BS2+ against most of the things it wants to shoot, with the relic laser destructor thats 3 shots hitting on 2s. I normally, keep him in reserve (as my only big knight), comes on turn 2 kills something to trigger favour of the dark gods and he's good to go. Normally you can't shoot anything turn 1 anyway and with rotate ion shields being 2CP it's cheaper to reserve a big knight than rotate twice (if you go second, you skip two of your opponents shooting phases, whilst only missing one of yours). Desecrator is 20PL, a brigand is 8PL, so for 3CP you can put both in reserve (depends what blessing you take as most of them are 2PL, but you get the idea).
I think the big knights have a role too. But I probably won't go 3 or 4 big knights. Just 1 or 2 even in a full chaos knight army. Have enough war dogs to run around causing problems everywhere and taking objectives and such are almost essential. However, the big knights can be built to absorb a huge amount of damage. And they can't be ignored, because they hit so hard in melee they will likely erase whatever is on the objective. So if you have a big knight on an objective, you have to deal with it.
A big chaos knight that forces you to deal with it then distracts you from having to deal with the various otehr wardogs out there. Say you have a Well built Rampager with the blessing of the Dark Master (enemy cannot reroll against you) and both the warlord trait infernal quest (obsec) and diabolus (+1 attack). That thing will obliterate whatever it charges on an objective. And then you now have a counts as ten model knight sitting on an objective that you have to kill or that objective is just gone. Ignore him? Then I move a cheap wardog onto that objective, and the Rampager now goes off to charge and obliterate yet another squad sitting on another objective. He moves 12 inches! And he hits so hard! Can you really afford to ignore him? Like in Iconoclast, this Rampager has 7 attacks, and you can then use a strategem to let it sweep attack for 4 hits instead of 3. That's 28 attacks at AP4. It will cleave through just about anything.
Focus on him ? He is tough to kill! And even if you killed it, he can auto explode for 2CP right in the middle on your opponent's army doing d6 mortals all round. I see the big chaos knights as focal points in our army. They are the ones that are buffing all our war dogs, attracting all the enemy firepower, and doing all manner of carnage meanwhile if they are being ignored. And when they are finally taken down, they are going out with a big bang and taking people with them! Going infernal is interesting on him too, because you can give him extreme mobility. If you skip Iconoclast and go Infernal instead gives the option of letting him +3 inch move. If you give him the slanaash favour he can advance and charge. He could potentially do turn 1 charges, and turn 2, he can literally be charging a backline enemy objective. Somehow, I think people will not focus on your wardogs so much if they are staring down this massive rampager right in their backline on turn 2 ... lol
And the Desecrator gives reroll 1s to hit at range to our wardogs. That's not a small thing if you are running with a lot of wardogs. I bet many of them will have a ranged weapon. And with a reaper chainsword, it hits hard in combat too, plus it has a WS2!
Meanwhile, the Abominant with Iconoclast ambitions still slaps hard in combat (AP3 on the charge with many attacks). And its a psyker. So you get that 5+ FNP power. You can even do something cheeky like take a psychic secondary like warp ritual against an opponent with no psychic. I am gonna now gonna run the abominant right into the center of the board and do psychic ritual. Either you kill it (which is not an easy ask), or it will not only do my psychic secondary, it will still get to shoot and then kill stuff in melee as well.
Besides, plonking down a massive chaos knight right in the middle of the board on a center objective (Perferably after murdering everything on that objective) makes a huge statement. And it just looks so cool. It just screams "This objective is now mine!" 10/10 for style points. hehe
Salt donkey wrote: So unfortunately, it’s clear that the most competitive way to run this army is go 3 abominants: This is boring and not good from $$$ perspective, but it’s the truth. Here’s why. For 30 points more than standard knights, abominants get…
Personally, I find our big knights underwhelming. Wardogs are much better. I'd be surprised if you seen many lists running two big knights let alone three. My list runs one big knight and ten wardogs. The Abominant is ok. But personally I prefer the desecrator, sure his ranged weapon is swingy, but he's WS2+ and his re-roll 1s in shooting aura is great on the wardogs.
Currently, I run iconoclast with worthy offerings (+1 to hit against vehicles, monsters and characters). That makes the Desecrator BS2+ against most of the things it wants to shoot, with the relic laser destructor thats 3 shots hitting on 2s. I normally, keep him in reserve (as my only big knight), comes on turn 2 kills something to trigger favour of the dark gods and he's good to go. Normally you can't shoot anything turn 1 anyway and with rotate ion shields being 2CP it's cheaper to reserve a big knight than rotate twice (if you go second, you skip two of your opponents shooting phases, whilst only missing one of yours). Desecrator is 20PL, a brigand is 8PL, so for 3CP you can put both in reserve (depends what blessing you take as most of them are 2PL, but you get the idea).
Admittedly, it’s possible you have a point on the wardogs. Since they improved the most in the new book, I’d say it’s possible they’re the best thing in it. That said, they needed to get a lot better to even be usable from where they where, so there’s still a chance they won’t be good enough. Big knights still hit harder and have much better durability after all. Also, a list with 10 wardogs and 1 big knight is awkward because you can hide the dogs, but not the big guy. That will either force you to play very cage with the big guy, or give your opponent a very easy time at finding what to shoot. Your reserve solution is a good idea, but that costs a lot of resources and means you still need to play cagy until your turn 2. Still a shot that this is the best list, but I don’t think it’s clear.
What my point should have been (and what I stick by)is that the Abominant is flat out superior to all other big knights. desecrators are never going to be better in melee than an Abominant. A 2+ WS is worth far less than D3 on the main weapon, especially since it’s extremely easy to get the 2+ WS on the Abominant. For example, assuming you value any Khorne blessing as being worth its points, a Khorne blessed Abominate is just a desecrator with D3 extra side attacks and Damage 3/AP -2 vs damage 2/AP -3. I’m fairly certain Iconoclast is still better than inferno by default so now that AP difference is really -3 vs -4. Eldenfirefly might like to pretend this AP difference matters in a noticeable way, but it really doesn’t. At the very least it’s not in the same league as D2 vs D3. To address an example firefly made an abominant might give terminators a 3/4+ vs a 4/5+ save a chainsword allows (if the terminators don’t have a 4++), but every unsaved wound kills a terminator or requires 1 less wound to go through if those terminators are -1 D. That’s 200% to 150% wound efficiency the abominant has which would be the equivalent of a model going from a 4++ to nothing, or going from a 3++ to a 5++ in -1 D example.
I don’t even think it’s a good idea to make an Abominant Khorne since this version overkills (especially with further buffs) most things in melee and giving up being a psyker + another favor costs too much. But being that much better in melee than all the other knights is just too much for them to overcome IMO, even if they give out random aura buffs.
"Hmm, players seem to be playing a lot of armigers at the expense of larger knights. Clearly, instead of making the bigger knights somehow more appealing and relevant to the meta, the solution is to nerf the wardogs".
... A big chaos knight that forces you to deal with it then distracts you from having ...
All very good points!
My problem is big knights are just a big target turn 1. A lot of our defensive buffs can't be activated when going second, so in my experience I'm always going to be losing a big knight turn 1. If I run one knight and reserve it, my opponent doesn't get to shoot anything turn 1.
The real problem is the terrain rules. Titanic models can always be seen, so can always be shot. They are also slow because of terrain (why I think Korvax is such a good house). Your melee knight even with infernal is not going to be able to get a first turn charge. The problem with this is that your big melee knight needs to survive two turns of shooting. Our big knights struggle to survive one.
People talk about our defensive buffs, but our knights even with Blessing of the Dark Master are just not that survivable. I'd argue our wardogs are much more survivable because they are faster and benefit from terrain so can actually use terrain to limit incoming fire.
The only reason I'm running a big knight is cause it gives me an extra 3CP (which I then use to reserve it and a wardog to free up space). But, part of me does wonder whether I should just run 13 dogs and take the CP hit.
I don’t even think it’s a good idea to make an Abominant Khorne since this version overkills (especially with further buffs) most things in melee and giving up being a psyker + another favor costs too much. But being that much better in melee than all the other knights is just too much for them to overcome IMO, even if they give out random aura buffs.
Interesting argument about D3. If you're not going all in on khorne doesn't a desecrator or rampager have similar output for less with the claw?
The rampager and desecrator come out ahead and that's before taking into account S10 vs T5. Haven't factored in the balemace because we are arguing on the premise that D2 is underwhelming, so d3 D2 attacks are not going to change much.
This has made me consider the claw as a decent option though!
There is the blessing "Warp Borne Stalker". For 30 points, your Abhorent class knight can start from deep strike. This will guarantee you get to do something. I would prefer this on maybe a Tyrant class Harpoon type knight though. Then would get all its guns in range the turn it deep strikes in.
Whether our knights get taken out (even if we go second), depends on the matchup too. Some armies don't have such a devastating first turn shooting, then we can safely start on the board.
I would argue that even in a outright shoot out, we can make our army so anti tank heavy that even with the loss of one knight, we would obliterate the enemy's anti tank shooting in our return fire.
For example, say we run 2 titanic knights and 7 wardogs. You can literally run full daemonbreath spears if you are worried about antitank. So let's say they get turn 1 and expose all of their anti tank. I will give it to them and let them blow up one of my titanic. Now their anti tank is exposed to 7 wardogs with melta guns and daemonbreath spears and one titanic return fire. Just from the wardogs, that's 21 melta shots plus the titanic's guns. Would likely destroy most of their anti tank attack after that return fire.
Other armies need to sacrifice something to tank anti tank guns. Like obsec, mobility, etc. The good thing about our army is we don't sacrifice anything to take anti tank guns. An amiger class wardog still fights great in close combat while shooting 3 melta shots per turn and is obsec. Similarly, a titanic is equally versatile. Can fight in melee, can destroy armour easily too. Counts as 10 models on a point.
I reckon that outside from a few skew armies, we can pack far more anti tank guns into T7, T8 forms than any army out there. Because if we wanted to, our entire army can pack anti tank guns and it would still be a reasonably competitive list. So why should we be so fearful of an anti tank shootout in that case?
Eldenfirefly wrote: let's say they get turn 1 and expose all of their anti tank
Why would anyone expose their anti tank to Knights They can fire at the big knights from behind obscuring terrain, without exposing themselves to return fire. It's like knights' biggest weakness... of course this doesn't apply to wardogs - another reason they're pushed. I don't think many knights players really want to run all wardogs though, big knights are the main appeal of the army in the first place
Eldenfirefly wrote: There is the blessing "Warp Borne Stalker". For 30 points, your Abhorent class knight can start from deep strike. This will guarantee you get to do something. I would prefer this on maybe a Tyrant class Harpoon type knight though. Then would get all its guns in range the turn it deep strikes in.
I like warp borne stalker on a wardog brigand; deepstrike obsec with good shooting is great. But, the one thing that makes me prefer strategic reserve, for big knights ad least, is your opponent can't screen you out because you can always come on from your own board edge in your deployment zone within 9" (makes it good for counter assaulting aggressive armies too).
Whether our knights get taken out (even if we go second), depends on the matchup too. Some armies don't have such a devastating first turn shooting, then we can safely start on the board.
Therein lies the problem our opponents anti tank doesn't need to be exposed to target our big knights. Because of Titanic they can always shoot our big knights from behind obscuring cover without exposing themselves. If my opponents had to expose their anti tank units to take out big knights it would be fine, but they don't.
You are right though, not all armies have that kind of long ranged anti tank that means they can just sit behind obscuring terrain without exposing themselves. Unfortunately, for me I do play against a lot of Tau and Eldar. Railguns and lances from behind obscuring terrain does not create a conducive environment for big knights to thrive in.
Other armies need to sacrifice something to tank anti tank guns. Like obsec, mobility, etc. The good thing about our army is we don't sacrifice anything to take anti tank guns. An amiger class wardog still fights great in close combat while shooting 3 melta shots per turn and is obsec. Similarly, a titanic is equally versatile. Can fight in melee, can destroy armour easily too. Counts as 10 models on a point.
I always ran 6 War Dogs (2 Executioners and 4 Huntsmen) and 2 Abhorrent Class Knights (a Despoiler and a Desecrator) anyway, so I'm quite pleased to hear this discussion.
You still need to expose yourself somewhat just to be able to see a target. If you are behind a solid wall, you cannot see anything. And if you move in such a way that you can draw line of sight to a knight, well, that means that maybe a wardog or even the knight itself will get to shoot you as well now after some moving.
I mean, if there are 7 war dogs and 2 knights in the field, it might be difficult to hide from every single one of them.
There is also the issue of range. If you are packing anti tank stuff like Multi meltas. that's a 24 inch range. You have to move forward to get into range and accordingly, that will expose yourself.
Not everyone is packing lascannons with 48 inch ranges. And not everyone is playing Tau Railguns.
I guess the question is, how much is the "usual" amount of anti-tank are people bringing? We aren't quite in a Knight meta where people feel like you need to bring enough anti tank to kill a knight tyrant in one turn. So, if we aren't, then people won't be bringing quite so many anti tank weapons in their "standard" take all comers list.
Kebabcito wrote: CK cannot be deployed very defensive or you has no presence in the match and you lose.
Yes, this is a good point. Plus I feel that degradation is our biggest enemy. It feels like we have a strong turn 1 and 2 when most or all of our knights and war dogs are still healthy. Once we start taking damage, we wiff a lot and our damage output plummets. So the effectiveness of our army plummets on turn 4 and 5.
This means we have to be aggressive and score a lot of points on turn 1 to 3 to build up enough of a lead. Because very often, our opponents will be outscoring us on turns 4 and 5.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Have another question btw. If we have an iconoclast household super heavy detahment. Putting one dreadblade in it will not affect anything right?
Also, in such a case, can the Dreadblade take Infernal fell bonds ? Or is he restricted to Iconoclast Fell bonds?
It feels like the dreadblade should be able to take infernal fell bonds because... its a dreadblade! lol They are not part of the household.
The Iconoclast households are really good for melee, but it feels like if you want a shooty knight, maybe infernal is better. So, one way is to have an infernal dreadblade with fell bonds.
It specifically states “excluding dreadblade units” in the Houshold Bonds section. It doesn’t appear they get any at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My mistake, in the main Fell Bond section, it does have to have a different one from the rest of the guys.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And it does clarify that an infernal picks from the internal list and an iconoclast picks from the iconoclast list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now that I’m reading this all again, I’m more confused than ever. Pretend I want to run a Knight Tyrant in my Death Guard army as a Dreadblade, what rules do I get? Do I get a bond, warlord trait, relic as a Fallen Hero? Do I get an ambition? Can I take a mark ability?
I believe you get everything but the actual Infernal or Iconoclast ambition. There's the one exception in Infernal if you pick Biomechanical Fusion which explicitly grants the Infernal boost and ignore the mortals from the boost on a 4+.
Kebabcito wrote: CK cannot be deployed very defensive or you has no presence in the match and you lose.
Yes, this is a good point. Plus I feel that degradation is our biggest enemy. It feels like we have a strong turn 1 and 2 when most or all of our knights and war dogs are still healthy. Once we start taking damage, we wiff a lot and our damage output plummets. So the effectiveness of our army plummets on turn 4 and 5.
This means we have to be aggressive and score a lot of points on turn 1 to 3 to build up enough of a lead. Because very often, our opponents will be outscoring us on turns 4 and 5.
This is why I'm underwhelmed by infernal. Doing mortal wounds to yourself in addition to enemies doing damage makes our army even more fragile.
I think Inconoclast with access to Herpetrax (+4/2 wounds) or Prideful Wrath (count as double wounds for degradation) are great choices for that reason.
Im going 7 brigands, desecrator and abby with vertrax rerolls.
We are super swuidhy, even more than I expected. You stsy behind just shooting or you rush with 10 karnivores like crazy. Trading damage arround the board means 0-20
Prideful Wrath might be the sleeper hit of the book. I used to love Abominable Constitution in the last book just because movement with such limited models was so important. I used to pair with Pride Fueled Fury so my Wardogs were always dangerous, even at one wound. This trait combines these two in an almost better way because it also helps our shooting degrade less.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That means a Tyrant needs to be down to 7 wounds (!!!) to hit their second profile. This is really good.
I really like every one of the Iconoclast custom Bonds, while the Infernal have a couple decent ones. I really like Vextrix for the rerolls, though it depends on what kind of game you are hoping to play. I feel like defensive abilities are good, but only if you have enough defense to actually make a difference.
I'm wondering if the Infernal Hellforged Construction (Ramshackle) would combo with the Nurgle -1 strength aura to really hurt melee-focused armies.
I wonder if Prideful Wrath is overshadowed by Dauntless (Herpetrax).
Wardog Prideful Wrath:
9 wounds to go from top profile to second profile.
10 wounds to go from top profile to bottom profile.
12 wounds to destroy.
Wardog Dauntless:
8 wounds to go from top profile to second profile.
11 wounds to go from top profile to bottom profile.
14 wounds to destroy.
Abhorrent Prideful Wrath:
18 wounds to go from top profile to second profile.
21 wounds to go from top profile to bottom profile.
24 wounds to destroy.
Abhorrent Dauntless:
16 wounds to go from top profile to second profile.
22 wounds to go from top profile to bottom profile.
28 wounds to destroy.
The Herpetrax stratagem isn't bad either Mortals to everything within 6" is pretty useful in a pinch (especially if it triggers moral).
bmsattler wrote: I really like every one of the Iconoclast custom Bonds, while the Infernal have a couple decent ones. I really like Vextrix for the rerolls, though it depends on what kind of game you are hoping to play. I feel like defensive abilities are good, but only if you have enough defense to actually make a difference.
I'm wondering if the Infernal Hellforged Construction (Ramshackle) would combo with the Nurgle -1 strength aura to really hurt melee-focused armies.
Yeah it does combo. I feel for infernal you either go Vextrix for the crazy re-roll one hit and one wound, Hellforged Construction (Ramshackle) or Korvax for a solid trait (picking an extra harbinger trait to be active for the game is actually quite strong), amazing relic, and the move through terrain/model stratagem (which is brilliant). But losing the extra attach and AP really sucks. An Iconoclast stalker almost has the same damage output as an Infernal Karnivor vs marines (same number of attacks but the extra AP balances out being WS3+).
Infernal Wardog Karnivor
5A WS2+ S10 AP -4 against T4 3+ armour of contempt does 2.89 wounds after saves.
Iconoclast Wardog Stalker
5A WS3+ S10 AP -5 against T4 3+ armour of contempt does 2.77 wounds after saves.
I think there is also good reason to consider a Castellan Tyrant Dreadblade with the infernal reroll hit rolls of 1 inside 18'' with the Warp Born Stalker favor. I think the Tyrant is slow and vulnerable to getting shot turn 1 before it can use its 8'' move to try to get line of sight to something. Deep-striking it allows it to pick a target and be fairly confident in killing it and the reroll 1s to hit at closer ranges lets it add some reliability to its shooting that it otherwise lacks. I'd also consider the Rune of Nak't'graa (one of the only relics a Tyrant can take) to add something like Ramshackle or the Infernal boost from Biomechanical Fusion on top. You're paying bigtime for a Tyrant, might as well get the most out of it.
Yeah, prideful wrath looks good. And yes, I love the idea of putting warp stalker on a knight to give it deep strike. Honestly, a good player will probably hide most or all of his best assets on turn 1 so you simply won't get much shooting in.
I would also like to add this fallen trait which I think is a sleeper for Harpoon class Tyrants. Its the fallen bond called Bold Tyrants. So all shooting within 18 inches get an additional AP.
Now this may not seem like much, but literally all of the Harpoon Tyrant's best guns are 18 inches. So, with this trait, now suddenly, its Dark flame flame cannon is AP3, not to mention is melta guns are now all AP5 and its harpoon is now AP 7 !!! lol. If you fire its twin desecrator cannons within 18 inches, even those are AP2 now! If you want to go ham, take the relic Rune of Nak'T'Graa and take the precision cruelty fell bond as well. Now all 6s to wound do an additional AP as well as 1 additional Damage. Imagine now the 6s on the Darkflame cannon will result in AP4, 3 damage ! And even the twin desecrator cannons are now doing AP3, Damage 3 on 6s to wound now! lol
A Harpoon class Tyrant coming out of deep strike with those two traits will absolutely destroy anything within 18 inches of it, with all its meltas, and guns. There will literally be a radius of nothing but smoking ruin around him after he is done firing.
Tyrants are almost forced into becoming dreadblades from our codex because they benefit from so few relics. The best one for them is literally the Rune of NaK'T'Graa because it lets you take an additional fell bond and there are actually some very interesting fell bonds for Tyrants to take.
Also, I got another question. A true dreadblade has no house affiliation right? So its neither iconoclast or infernal. So, does this mean that if I take Rune of Nak'T'Graa, I can take one infernal fell bond and one iconoclast fell bond ?
I honestly don't know why they even classified fell bonds into those two groups when true Dreadblades do not get household ambitions and are supposedly neither infernal nor Iconoclast.
I also feel that the best way to run a more resilient infernal household is to actually not take any named household, but instead run your entire army as a custom infernal household with the Biomechanical Fusion fell bond trait. Now all of your knights get demonic surge and they also get a 4+ save to shrug off mortal wounds they receive from doing demonic surge. I mean, that's really the best trait if you want to use your demonic surge from turn 1 all the way to turn 5. Otherwise, you won't have much of an army left after a while because you keep doing mortal wounds to yourself. I mean, now that we seem to be pushed towards bringing 1/2 big knights and many small war dogs, the damage that demonic surge does to your army is ridiculous. Even 1 mortal wound per demonic surge. If we are running 2 big knights are 7 war dogs. That's 9 mortal wounds to ourselves. How much of an army can we have if we keep doing 9 mortal wounds to ourselves every turn ? And that's if we didn't choose doing d3 mortal wounds. Imagine doing 9d3 mortal wounds to ourselves ... I only know that if I was a player and my opponent told me he was doing 9d3 mortal wounds to his army before he even did anything, I would be totally happy... lol And if said opponent wanted to do this to himself for more than one turn... well, I think I won the game without having to do much lol. I just don't think anything is worth the self inflicted damage.
I personally lean towards not taking any self inflicted damage at all. So, I always find myself gravitating towards Iconoclast households. Its wierd because movement wise, its actually infernal households that are the fastest because they can demonic surge for that +3 inch move. So, if you want a very aggressive melee style army, then infernal will get you into combat the fastest. yet Iconoclast with its +1 attack and +1 AP on charge hits the hardest. Yet Iconoclast is slower than infernal... (movement wise). I don't know if they purposely made it this way to balance it or something.
I also get the sense that our playstyle for chaos knights is a very in your face aggressive style. We don't do finese. We are supposed to throw everything forward boldly, take as many objectives as we can and kill as much as we can turn 1 and 2. We stomp our entire army forward and just tell our opponent "give me your best shot, because I am going to hit you back with everything I have got and its going to hurt bad!" We can't hide very well since all our models are big (our big knights can't hide at all). And by late game, we have so few models plus degradation. So yeah. We wanna be so far ahead that turns 4 and 5 are cleanup. (Or our opponent conceded by turn 3).
I have played one game so far choosing khorvax household and it seems that their stratagem is so much needed. Apart from that I agree with most people above regarding the daemonic surge table and that iconoclast might be the way to go. I have to prepare a list for a big team tournament I am going to participate and I would be more than happy if you could lend a hand in giving some feedback on how to set up my list.
Right now I am something into this (still not finished)
Executioner 155
Executioner 155
310
Stalker 145
Stalker 145
290
Huntsman 145
Huntsman 145
Huntsman 145
335
Abominant
Blessing of the Dark master, infernal quest, soul-raptor swarm460 pts
Desecrator
Lord of Dread, Rune of Darkness,
Warp-borne stalker 430 pts
That’s 1825 with a lot of points to spend on more favors or whatever. Any clue?
Ps I know this is not army list section but still I believe it fits
You can duplicate the Huntsman equipment on the Stalker and get the Pterrorshade keyword on top of the thermal spear and chaintalon.
The Helm of Dogs is worth looking at adding to one of the Stalkers.
If the Abominant is your Warlord, it would be worth looking at adding a second Warlord trait to add in the Aura of Dread and make your leadership shenanigans stronger.
I really like the Mirror of Fates on a War Dog for cheap CP regen and some late-game survivability.
bmsattler wrote: You can duplicate the Huntsman equipment on the Stalker and get the Pterrorshade keyword on top of the thermal spear and chaintalon.
The Helm of Dogs is worth looking at adding to one of the Stalkers.
If the Abominant is your Warlord, it would be worth looking at adding a second Warlord trait to add in the Aura of Dread and make your leadership shenanigans stronger.
I really like the Mirror of Fates on a War Dog for cheap CP regen and some late-game survivability.
I didn’t quite catch you the on the pterroshade keyword .
Yes I was thinking the aura of terror as well. Maybe make the desecrator warlord so he gets that? In conjunction with the lord of dread WT he might be a better choice? Also do you find that warp borne stalker fits his role? Or maybe instead of him add a rampager?
The Huntsman and the Stalker are the same points, and can have the exact same weapons loadout. The Stalker also has the Pterrorshade keyword, while the Huntsman does not. So unless you already have 9 Stalkers and can't get any more, you may as well just get access to the stratagem rather than not.
I see the Abominant's role as a distraction carnifex, pushing into the enemy lines to force them to focus on it rather than the rest of your army. This is because it can stack Winds of the Warp for a 5+ fnp with a durability favor like Dark Master and a relic such as the Soul Raptor Swarm or a 2+ save to be stupid tough. It can also take advantage of the Geiststorm ability from the Dread tables to force enemy units within 12 of him to shoot him as the closest. That is why I would put the Aura of Dread WLT on it instead of the Desecrator, which wants to be back a little supporting the War Dogs.
I like a Desecrator more than a Rampager. They are fairly similar, the Rampager gets 2 inches more movement and an extra attack while supporting melee War Dogs. The Desecrator gets a powerful gun and supports shooting War Dogs. I would personally put Warp Born Stalker on a War Dog and put a durability buff on the Desecrator. I like the Putrid Carapace for access to the Nurgle act-at-full-profile stratagem.
Putting the Warp Born Stalker on a War Dog lets you combine it with Encircling Hounds to threaten three War Dogs coming in from reserves to force them to screen out, which gives you things to shoot at. It also gives you fewer hulls on the table which lets you use the obscuring terrain for the remaining models more effectively.
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
Gametype: Matched
+ Lord of War +
Knight Abominant [24 PL, -1CP, 460pts]: 4. Knight Diabolus, Arch-Tyrant, Character (Traitoris Lance), Favour of the Dark Mechanicum (Vextrix), Heretek Power Core, House Vextrix, Undivided - Blessing of the Dark Master, Vortex Terrors, Warlord, Winds of the Warp
Knight Desecrator [22 PL, -2CP, 435pts]: 1. Eager for the Kill, Character (Tyrannical Court), Corrupted Heirlooms, House Vextrix, Reaper chainsword, The Diamonas, Tzeentch - Cursed Rune of Fate
War Dog Brigand Squadron [24 PL, 465pts]: House Vextrix
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
War Dog Brigand Squadron [24 PL, -1CP, 465pts]: House Vextrix
. War Dog Brigand: Corrupted Heirlooms, Diabolus heavy stubber, Helm of Dogs
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
War Dog Executioner Squadron [9 PL, 175pts]: House Vextrix
. War Dog Executioner: Diabolus heavy stubber, Tzeentch - Mirror of Fates
I'm going Vextrix. Full rerolls in the melta/laser of the brigands, the diamonas, my abominant will move +2" and will heal d3 every round. The relic will make his damage D4 flat and his tail D3.
My list will have:
- An abominant in the front line, trying to survive as much as he can with all my CPs, trying to spread the harbringer and charging everything I think is a threat for my shooter platforms.
- The desecrator will give 1s reroll for the gatling spam of the wardogs, he is good in melee but will have diamonas for Vextrix synergy and he will be able to unlock favours of gods turn1 usually (which rampager cannot) he has rune of fate for trying to fish the 4++ early and still do some damage with the 6+ saves. Still thinking about going 5+++ instead of this shi**.
- 6 Brigands with melta/laser and gatling. They will stay at 30" till round 3, trying to kill everything they can without engaging to much in troubles. I'll try to avoid all the charges as posible.
- Helverin will stay behind in maps where there's a deployment zone objective. Actually there aren't any missions with 2 objectives so I'm going only with one. His weapons are 60" so I don't think he will have as much troubles as a brigand trying to be useful in the match.
My missions will be storm of darkness, strangehold and third depends. I'm not going the ruthless tyrant strangehold free points because I lack a third good secondary. I think it is a huge trap.
I like just about everything about the list. I would personally switch out the Knight Diabolos WLT for Aura of Dread, but I understand the appeal. I feel like its a little light on melee, but that much shooting might be enough to make the difference. The list definitely leans in to the Vextrix strengths. I'll be very interested to hear your experiences once you've run it through the tournament!
Kebabcito wrote: My list for a tournament next week, I'm going for top3
Nice list! Made me realise helm of dogs works when shooting and fighting. Such a good relic.
So far storm of darkness has been a great secondary. It's the fact that you can do the action in any moral phase. So you can start it in your moral phase on one objective, then do another one in your opponents moral phase (which is guaranteed to complete). Not sure if this is intentional, might not survive the FAQ. But otherwise it could only ever score a max of 12 which seems terrible (currently turn 5 it can't be scored).
I tend to go stranglehold, storm of darkness and grind them down (or another decent kill secondary if I can max it).
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
Gametype: Matched
+ Lord of War +
Knight Abominant [24 PL, -1CP, 460pts]: 4. Knight Diabolus, Arch-Tyrant, Character (Traitoris Lance), Favour of the Dark Mechanicum (Vextrix), Heretek Power Core, House Vextrix, Undivided - Blessing of the Dark Master, Vortex Terrors, Warlord, Winds of the Warp
Knight Desecrator [22 PL, -2CP, 435pts]: 1. Eager for the Kill, Character (Tyrannical Court), Corrupted Heirlooms, House Vextrix, Reaper chainsword, The Diamonas, Tzeentch - Cursed Rune of Fate
War Dog Brigand Squadron [24 PL, 465pts]: House Vextrix
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
War Dog Brigand Squadron [24 PL, -1CP, 465pts]: House Vextrix
. War Dog Brigand: Corrupted Heirlooms, Diabolus heavy stubber, Helm of Dogs
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
War Dog Executioner Squadron [9 PL, 175pts]: House Vextrix
. War Dog Executioner: Diabolus heavy stubber, Tzeentch - Mirror of Fates
I'm going Vextrix. Full rerolls in the melta/laser of the brigands, the diamonas, my abominant will move +2" and will heal d3 every round. The relic will make his damage D4 flat and his tail D3.
My list will have:
- An abominant in the front line, trying to survive as much as he can with all my CPs, trying to spread the harbringer and charging everything I think is a threat for my shooter platforms.
- The desecrator will give 1s reroll for the gatling spam of the wardogs, he is good in melee but will have diamonas for Vextrix synergy and he will be able to unlock favours of gods turn1 usually (which rampager cannot) he has rune of fate for trying to fish the 4++ early and still do some damage with the 6+ saves. Still thinking about going 5+++ instead of this shi**.
- 6 Brigands with melta/laser and gatling. They will stay at 30" till round 3, trying to kill everything they can without engaging to much in troubles. I'll try to avoid all the charges as posible.
- Helverin will stay behind in maps where there's a deployment zone objective. Actually there aren't any missions with 2 objectives so I'm going only with one. His weapons are 60" so I don't think he will have as much troubles as a brigand trying to be useful in the match.
My missions will be storm of darkness, strangehold and third depends. I'm not going the ruthless tyrant strangehold free points because I lack a third good secondary. I think it is a huge trap.
Very important question- how do you have the new rules on Battlescribe? Mine is not showing any of those.
Yes, I gave some damage to Abhominant so my opponent cannot ignore it. Anyway, I've been thinking about the ObSec trait. Abhominant is an absolute monster first 3 rounds, and having 10 guardsman in the middle of the board with ObSec can give me a lot of matches. I may end playing him with Obsec.
Indeed Storm of Darkness is insane, it can be done with the abhominant in turn1 if he can reach the middle objective so the opponents are -2ld since turn1 and you have 9 free VPplus stranglehold early game.
Battlescribe is not released yet, you must download the commit hand-by.
Something that came up in my last game was Crushed Like Vermin.
On an Iconoclast Desecrator you get 5 stomp attacks hitting on 3+ after the -1 to hit (because they are WS2+). With the Break Their Lines stratagem or Worthy Offerings bond (against characters) that goes back up to a 2+. On average that means 8.33MW. If you're a Knight Diabolus That's 12MW (14MW on a Rampager).
It doesn't work on Vehicles or Monsters, but it does work on characters.
1CP to guarantee picking up a 2++ save archon or transhuman/3++ save characters is great!
Infernal households are cool, but I just think taking MW is just too harsh. Had a game yesterday and towards the end, I had war dogs on 4W, a big knight on 9W. Imagine if I was infernal household and doing mortal wounds to myself. Those low HP war dogs would be dead and my knight would be on bottom bracket...
I really can't fanthom doing at least 9MW to my whole army on turn 1, and then some more in subsequent rounds.
And not just because our chaos knight armies only have few units, so each unit is precious. But each Wound is tough for our opponent to get through to. We got armor saves, invul saves, ion shields, dark blessings, T7 or T8 ...
So, the fact that if we are infernal, we literally do MW to ourselves is just .... to much. The price to pay for that additional firepower is just not worth it, if you ask me.
I would go Infernal only for the household bond, but I literally will not use demonic surge unless I had some relic or warlord trait that could shrug off the MW reliably. And that means only one knight out of my whole army would be using demonic surge.
The only two situations the demonnic surge might be worth it is as follows and they are both situational.
1) Our army is a pure melee army. Karnaviores, rampagers. We want to just charge our opponent turn 1 or 2. So demonic surge is for the +3" movement. Even then this is situational. Because a good opponent will know to screen you out. You won't be getting any good turn 1 charges into good targets. You have to fight through all the chaff. So, not sure the +3 inch movement will matter against a good opponent.
2) We are facing an army with lots of Strength 9 or better guns. So the Transhuman is a thing. I don't mention Strength 8, because if the wardogs are already only 12W. Doing d3 MW to yourself to get transhuman on a wardog... is like giving your opponent one free heavy hit. And to do it on all 7 of your wardogs... is like giving your opponent 7 free heavy hits. I would rather not demonic surge and just let my opponent try and hit me and wound me, and then I still get ion shield saves. So, it might only be worth it, on a big knight, if its facing an army with some or lots of Str 9 or better guns. This is extremely situational. Like most people are rocking Str 8 for anti tank. There are only a few armies out there with such Str 9 or better guns. So is it worth it to go infernal household just for these rare situations you are facing such armies? I mean, if your meta has lots of Tau I suppose it could be a thing...
GW simply didn't do the math on demonic surge mortal wounds. In this current meta where the codex seems to be driving us towards running more wardogs. The price for demonic surge is just too high.
D3 mortals can be justified under a really powerful effect that decides the matches.
+3" is not worth it because you cannot ensure the charge will be succesfull. +1 wound is very good but only in 1 weapon is not. Transhuman is not good in a T7-8 army.
So, we must directly compare the difference between Vextrix/Korvax and Iconoclast+household.
For example, comparing Vextrix rerolls vs +2/+4 wounds and +1A -1ap. This comparison may not be as easy as it was when you were comparing only the households. In this case, the ambition bonus should be considered in iconoclast but not in surge as it is not worth.
At the end, I think you will have to decide between the rerolls in the melta-laser S9 or the charge of stalker with much more damage.
Axioma here: Desecrator and helm of dogs can make the point here. full 1s rerolls is close to Vextrix rerolls, which can give us the next path:
- You want to play desecrator? You can play Hexperax house and stalkers with laser/chainsaw. You will be able to shoot with close to full rerrolls and then charge with all your list with full damage.
- You want to spam dogs? Abby+10 brigands, you don't need the iconoclast buff and you just stay 30" away with Abby in front crushing everyone.
I'd gladly have Transhuman against a triple Stormsurge list. I'd be interested to see how much of a difference Ramshackle Infernal might make. I don't get enough games in to know what the meta is like anywhere.
Iconoclast has a lot to offer, no doubt. I think it will take experimentation to see what balance of offense vs. defense you take, and where. Bold Tyrants or Prideful Wrath?
Yeah, but again that's super situational because how often are you going to face triple stormsurge lists. Even against that, I wonder about the math. Because the whole point against a 3xstormsurge list is to transhuman. So you must take d3 MW to choose transhuman for your demonic surge. So if you have 9 models in your army, you have now done 9d3 MW to yourself just to give your whole army transhuman against those triple stormsurge. And they might still roll hot on their wound saves. So, end of the day, is doing a guaranted 9d3 MW to ourselves just to transhuman our entire army worth it?
If most of the time, we never want to use demonic surge. And its about the household specific traits, we can also consider Iconoclast custom bonds. (Under the Iconoclast fell bonds). We can create our own custom iconoclast household. There is a whole list there out of which I am pretty sure some would be good.
I hear what you're saying. Demonic surge takes serious thought to get it right. However, you're being a little pessimistic. If you've got 9 models in your army, 7 of them could use obscuring terrain to be scarce. You can also take a relic or an Infernal bond that can reduce the mortals you inflict on yourself.
I still think that Infernal is weaker than Iconoclast, just not that its a slam dunk done deal. I suspect some of it will be personal preference.
bmsattler wrote: I hear what you're saying. Demonic surge takes serious thought to get it right. However, you're being a little pessimistic. If you've got 9 models in your army, 7 of them could use obscuring terrain to be scarce. You can also take a relic or an Infernal bond that can reduce the mortals you inflict on yourself.
I still think that Infernal is weaker than Iconoclast, just not that its a slam dunk done deal. I suspect some of it will be personal preference.
Agree with this, the Infernal table is not near as easy to use as the Iconoclast buff. That being said, with the exception of Herpatrax, I think that the Infernal Houses have stronger packages than the Iconoclast houses, in part to make up for that.
Herpatrax is my go-to right now, but I'm going to be doing a lot of testing with Korvax too.
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost
+ Lord of War +
Knight Abominant [24 PL, -1CP, 460pts]: 4. Knight Diabolus, 6. Aura of Terror, Arch-Tyrant, Character (Traitoris Lance), Crown of Jedathra, House Herpetrax, The Storm Malevolent, Undivided - Blessing of the Dark Master, Warlord, Winds of the Warp
Knight Desecrator [22 PL, -2CP, 440pts]: Bow to None (Herpetrax), Character (Tyrannical Court), Corrupted Heirlooms, House Herpetrax, The Diamonas, Undivided - Mark of the Dread Knight, Warpstrike claw
War Dog Executioner Squadron [17 PL, 330pts]: House Herpetrax
. War Dog Executioner: Diabolus heavy stubber, Tzeentch - Mirror of Fates
. War Dog Executioner: Daemonbreath meltagun
War Dog Karnivore Squadron [18 PL, -1CP, 320pts]: House Herpetrax
. War Dog Karnivore: Corrupted Heirlooms, Havoc multi-launcher, Helm of Dogs, Khorne - Blood Shield
. War Dog Karnivore: Havoc multi-launcher
War Dog Stalker Squadron [24 PL, 450pts]: House Herpetrax
. War Dog Stalker: Avenger chaincannon, Havoc multi-launcher, Slaughterclaw
. War Dog Stalker: Avenger chaincannon, Havoc multi-launcher, Slaughterclaw
. War Dog Stalker: Avenger chaincannon, Havoc multi-launcher, Slaughterclaw
++ Total: [105 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++
Note that Abomb has the Veil, it's just not showig up in Battlescribe.
I think you need to see infernal as a buff for big knights and something you almost never use on wargdogs. On big knights that get access to 2+ fnp relic against daemon surge, or a 5++ from the psychic power/Dread Knight they still have value. +3" movement is great on big knights (especially when they can ignore terrain). Also clutch +3" movement on small knights can win you games if it gets you where you need to be.
As mentioned the infernal household packages are very good. Korvax is really strong. The other bond that I think is well worth it is Hellforged construction as the damage reduction can offset the mortal wounds.
Mushkilla wrote: I think you need to see infernal as a buff for big knights and something you almost never use on wargdogs. On big knights that get access to 2+ fnp relic against daemon surge, or a 5++ from the psychic power/Dread Knight they still have value. +3" movement is great on big knights (especially when they can ignore terrain). Also clutch +3" movement on small knights can win you games if it gets you where you need to be.
As mentioned the infernal household packages are very good. Korvax is really strong. The other bond that I think is well worth it is Hellforged construction as the damage reduction can offset the mortal wounds.
I feel that melee is something almost unavoidable in a game. And given our knights hit hard anyway, its kind of wasted potential if we only shoot and don't utilise our awesome melee abilities. Thus, Iconoclast will always be useful because we will almost always have some melee fights in a game.
Demonic surge, if we are using so so rarely, and limiting to only our big knights seems to really make them too situational to be good. And if its about household bonds. Like I said, its not like Iconoclast doesn't have good household bonds either.
About all shooting or all melee. Both I feel are too extreme. The all melee build can get move blocked and shot before getting into melee, and as for the all shooting army... Well, I honestly don't think our shooting is so fantastic we can win by just solely shooting our opponent off the board like a Tau army.
So is there any sort of consensus on what the best knight/wardog unit to take for agents of chaos is? I... really don't have the time or money to start a full knight army, but adding a knight or some wardogs to my night lords sounds feasible.
So far in other places I've seen war dog stalkers and executioners mentioned, and the abhorrent seems tailor made for being an agent of chaos. But I also kinda want to kitbash a warmaster titan into a knight tyrant, as silly as that might be...
I've also seen one person make a list that totally ignored agents of chaos and just mashed together a full super heavy detachment of the new chaos knights into their iron warriors, though I don't know how that'll fare post-new-CSM-codex.
cole1114 wrote: So is there any sort of consensus on what the best knight/wardog unit to take for agents of chaos is? I... really don't have the time or money to start a full knight army, but adding a knight or some wardogs to my night lords sounds feasible.
So far in other places I've seen war dog stalkers and executioners mentioned, and the abhorrent seems tailor made for being an agent of chaos. But I also kinda want to kitbash a warmaster titan into a knight tyrant, as silly as that might be...
I've also seen one person make a list that totally ignored agents of chaos and just mashed together a full super heavy detachment of the new chaos knights into their iron warriors, though I don't know how that'll fare post-new-CSM-codex.
It really depends on the army. Without the CSM codex being out, really can't make any calls to what would be good there.
For Tsons, I'm going to experiment with 3 Executioners or 3 Karnivores. They both fill a nice role in the army that is hard to come by in the baseline dex.
As far as Infernal goes, yes, I will agree their buffs are more situational. but 17' Karnivores and adding 1 to wound the gatling cannons are both great uses of it. The Transhuman comes up much less. You are simply trading a more situational buff over the Iconoclast buff, but getting what I consider to be stronger house packages (Exception for Herpatrax) with that.
cole1114 wrote: So is there any sort of consensus on what the best knight/wardog unit to take for agents of chaos is? I... really don't have the time or money to start a full knight army, but adding a knight or some wardogs to my night lords sounds feasible.
So far in other places I've seen war dog stalkers and executioners mentioned, and the abhorrent seems tailor made for being an agent of chaos. But I also kinda want to kitbash a warmaster titan into a knight tyrant, as silly as that might be...
I've also seen one person make a list that totally ignored agents of chaos and just mashed together a full super heavy detachment of the new chaos knights into their iron warriors, though I don't know how that'll fare post-new-CSM-codex.
Yeah, just going with a super heavy detachment with your warlord in it seems to bee the best way to go when souping with CSM. You lose Harbringers of dread and that's about it I think. Retain everything else. And CSM has no super legion abilities to speak of (yet), so it doesn't affect CSM either. And CSM units are really cheap.
Like souping in one patrol of CSM with
Terminator sorceror, 2 units of CSM, 2 units of raptors just cost around 400 points.
And this gives you 2 units of cheap obsec with armor of contempt to do actions, hold your back objective. And 2 units of raptors that can deep strike in to do stuff like Retrieve Data. And a terminator sorceror with Armor of contempt is pretty tanky and grants you psychic powers.
You still have 1600 points left to kit out your super heavy detachment with tons of stuff.
It actually adds a ton of utility to your army in terms of doing secondaries and tactical options.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cole1114 wrote: So is there any sort of consensus on what the best knight/wardog unit to take for agents of chaos is? I... really don't have the time or money to start a full knight army, but adding a knight or some wardogs to my night lords sounds feasible.
So far in other places I've seen war dog stalkers and executioners mentioned, and the abhorrent seems tailor made for being an agent of chaos. But I also kinda want to kitbash a warmaster titan into a knight tyrant, as silly as that might be...
I've also seen one person make a list that totally ignored agents of chaos and just mashed together a full super heavy detachment of the new chaos knights into their iron warriors, though I don't know how that'll fare post-new-CSM-codex.
It all depends on what role your want your wardogs to fufill. Because we have give versions of wardogs. So, I am sure you can find the right build for the army you have in mind.
If you want your wardogs to fufill a shooting role, then the wardogs with all shooting loadouts are the best. And it also depends on whether you want them to shoot all around well, or whether you want a more anti tank specific shooting type of wardog.
If you want your wardogs to charge up the field and melee, then Karnavoire is the best. But if you want some shooting as well, then all versions of wardogs with one melee weapon like a chain talon is good.
If you want them to fufill an anti infantry role, then the version that has that 12 shot avenger chain cannon is the best.
I personally think a more generalist build is better because more flexible. So, one shooty weapon and one melee weapon loadout.
I feel that melee is something almost unavoidable in a game. And given our knights hit hard anyway, its kind of wasted potential if we only shoot and don't utilise our awesome melee abilities. Thus, Iconoclast will always be useful because we will almost always have some melee fights in a game.
Demonic surge, if we are using so so rarely, and limiting to only our big knights seems to really make them too situational to be good. And if its about household bonds. Like I said, its not like Iconoclast doesn't have good household bonds either.
Don't get me wrong I think in isolation iconoclast ambition is better than the infernal ambition overall.
The question is it worth having a worse ambition for a more useful bond/stratagem. Korvax, in particular is very hard to price in terms of value. Their bond opens up a bunch of interesting dread combos. Their warlord trait lets you have 12" taskmaster aura and do interesting things like 18" Gheist Storm on your toughest knight.
But for me it's the fact that your opponent will always have to assume any knight can move +3" through terrain (and models) because of daemon surge and knights of shade. Terrain is one of our biggest weaknesses so the price/power of being able to circumvent that is hard to quantify.
Just wondering, as a BL player, do Chaos Knights give something I can't have? Like, I'm expanding my army to have some strategic punch, but I don't know if the Knights can give me that
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
Gametype: Matched
+ Lord of War +
Knight Abominant [24 PL, -1CP, 460pts]: 4. Knight Diabolus, Arch-Tyrant, Character (Traitoris Lance), Favour of the Dark Mechanicum (Vextrix), Heretek Power Core, House Vextrix, Undivided - Blessing of the Dark Master, Vortex Terrors, Warlord, Winds of the Warp
Knight Desecrator [22 PL, -2CP, 435pts]: 1. Eager for the Kill, Character (Tyrannical Court), Corrupted Heirlooms, House Vextrix, Reaper chainsword, The Diamonas, Tzeentch - Cursed Rune of Fate
War Dog Brigand Squadron [24 PL, 465pts]: House Vextrix
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
War Dog Brigand Squadron [24 PL, -1CP, 465pts]: House Vextrix
. War Dog Brigand: Corrupted Heirlooms, Diabolus heavy stubber, Helm of Dogs
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
War Dog Executioner Squadron [9 PL, 175pts]: House Vextrix
. War Dog Executioner: Diabolus heavy stubber, Tzeentch - Mirror of Fates
I'm going Vextrix. Full rerolls in the melta/laser of the brigands, the diamonas, my abominant will move +2" and will heal d3 every round. The relic will make his damage D4 flat and his tail D3.
My list will have:
- An abominant in the front line, trying to survive as much as he can with all my CPs, trying to spread the harbringer and charging everything I think is a threat for my shooter platforms.
- The desecrator will give 1s reroll for the gatling spam of the wardogs, he is good in melee but will have diamonas for Vextrix synergy and he will be able to unlock favours of gods turn1 usually (which rampager cannot) he has rune of fate for trying to fish the 4++ early and still do some damage with the 6+ saves. Still thinking about going 5+++ instead of this shi**.
- 6 Brigands with melta/laser and gatling. They will stay at 30" till round 3, trying to kill everything they can without engaging to much in troubles. I'll try to avoid all the charges as posible.
- Helverin will stay behind in maps where there's a deployment zone objective. Actually there aren't any missions with 2 objectives so I'm going only with one. His weapons are 60" so I don't think he will have as much troubles as a brigand trying to be useful in the match.
My missions will be storm of darkness, strangehold and third depends. I'm not going the ruthless tyrant strangehold free points because I lack a third good secondary. I think it is a huge trap.
Very important question- how do you have the new rules on Battlescribe? Mine is not showing any of those.
Went to the tournament. Won first match 100-18, second one 90-60, and I lost the finals 56-80.
Everything worked as I expected:
- Abhominant is extremely tanky. From now on, he will have the ObSec trait as it is hella good for defending mid by himself.
- Brigands with Desecrator/helmet rerolls + vextrix are very powerful. They will crush infantry and vehicles. They are extremlely powerful.
- Desecrator must be played very aggresively. If you wait behind for the favor unlocking, he will not have enough presence in the match because he only moves 10". So he will finally be useless.
I think we will have 2 lists:
- Iconoclast abby, desecrator, 6 stalkers and 1 helverin behind.
- Vextrix abby, desecrator with diamonas and 6/7 brigands.
Something I learned. Dogs are invictors. DO NOT TRY TO TRADE IN MELEE. If you charge something, make sure it will die, we cannot trade, we just die and you are tabbed turn2.
Short question: I have 3 Despoilers and a new Abhorrent Kit around. As despoilers seem to be the worst pick currently I wonder how cool people are when using the Despoiler Chassis for a Rampager/Desecrator? Does anyone look at the legs of the kit at all or is it just the weapons that count?
So I wonder what's the "limit" we can bring in big knights and have enough relics, dark god blessings to buff them all sufficiently that our opponent really doesn't have any good targets to attack because they are all very tanky.
An abominant seems to be a sure slot because it can cast that 5+ FNP psychic on itself. Because this buff is so strong, we can leave the strongest dark god blessing to another knight. So, maybe take the Putrid carapce favour on it and bring the Cursed knight of panopoly relic. So now it has a 2+ save and it reduces any AP of a dmg 1 attack against it by a further AP. And once it gets favoured, its now T9. A T9 Abominant with 5+ FNP and a 2+ armor save is tough!
So now we can put another dark favour Mark of the Dread Knight on a Desecrator. Along with Veil of Medrengard. So it now has 4++ to shooting, 6++ to melee, a 6+ FNP and once it gets favoured, it now also has a 5+ FNP.
The last and most powerful favour can now be put on the last knight. So, it will now have blessing of the dark master. This blessing alone makes a big knight tanky. We may not even need to add any further defensive relic.
So, we now have 3 super tanky knights and probably only enough points for 4 wardogs. We can put more defensive blessings on 2 of them, and then hide the last two behind cover.
This will make it such that our opponent has no really good targets to shoot at because they are all tanky. I don't know if 3 big knights and 4 wardogs are enough to cover objectives and stuff though. Just wondering. I mean, at least one war dog on a back objective should be fine. We can make one knight obsec. So, 3 knights walking forward to fight over the midboard objectives with one of them being obsec... is that eenough? (With the wardogs providing fire cover from behind.)
The strategy would be to throw our 3 big knights forward boldly, and to be cagey with our war dogs. Once we have whittled down the firepower of our opponent enough, the war dogs can come out and be more aggressive too.
I like your way of thinking! I came also to the conclusion that 3 Big Knights are the maximum, getting 4 means either no or just one wardog which is really no good idea as wardogs are basically must haves.
I am still toying around with ways to build Despoilers. Double-Battlecannon with Dark Forging as Dreadblade would end up in a huge load of dice as well as 12 shots that ignore LoS at S6 D2 with the potential of killing some heroes.
Double Gatling seems also tempting due to 24 shots + 2D6 Autohits from the flamer. As a dreadblade the Precision Cruelty Bond would set the AP a bit up which seems almost necessary (although not reliable). Another option for the Gatling is using the Deamonic Surge to add +1 to the wound roll, which sadly does only apply to one of the two guns. A Gatling+Meele Weapon Despoiler in house Khormentis seems like quite a versatile pick, especially when using the Blasphemous Engine. It could move at 13”, Wounding better with the Gatling, still hitting hard in Meele and also taking quite a toll until the profile starts bracketing.
I still have to find a way to utilise the thermal cannon, currently it doesn’t look like that much of a good pick
CK seems matchup dependent right now. I imagine if we ran into a Tau list with triple Hammerhead Gunships, we would have a bad time. (Not that I have actually faced such an army yet).
We seem to have a decently good matchup against marine armies though. Because most of those are only just damage 2 in close combat, so with the strategem to reduce damage by 1 in melee, combined with the whole army being T7 or T8, its a tough nut for Marine armies to crack.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Short question: I have 3 Despoilers and a new Abhorrent Kit around. As despoilers seem to be the worst pick currently I wonder how cool people are when using the Despoiler Chassis for a Rampager/Desecrator? Does anyone look at the legs of the kit at all or is it just the weapons that count?
Do what you like. Personally, I've done what you suggested and fielded it as needed depending on what it is outfitted with. I only have one knight chassis, so I outfit it as I like and call it whatever I want to use it as in that game.
bmsattler wrote: The Huntsman and the Stalker are the same points, and can have the exact same weapons loadout. The Stalker also has the Pterrorshade keyword, while the Huntsman does not. So unless you already have 9 Stalkers and can't get any more, you may as well just get access to the stratagem rather than not.
Not quite, the Huntsman gets an additional meltagun, whereas the Stalker is stuck with the Heavy Stubber. I'm not big on the Huntsman, but I'd rather have the Huntsman w/ Thermal Spear over the Stalker w/ Thermal Spear. The Pterrorshades keyword is overrated, unless I've missed something it only ties into a single subfaction-locked relic and a generic (albeit potentially powerful) strategem. Its not the end of the world if a couple models in your army aren't able to take advantage of it and probably won't much disadvantage you if 33% of your minis (as is the case w/ the list in question) don't have it.
Infernal households are cool, but I just think taking MW is just too harsh. Had a game yesterday and towards the end, I had war dogs on 4W, a big knight on 9W. Imagine if I was infernal household and doing mortal wounds to myself. Those low HP war dogs would be dead and my knight would be on bottom bracket...
I really can't fanthom doing at least 9MW to my whole army on turn 1, and then some more in subsequent rounds.
And not just because our chaos knight armies only have few units, so each unit is precious. But each Wound is tough for our opponent to get through to. We got armor saves, invul saves, ion shields, dark blessings, T7 or T8 ...
So, the fact that if we are infernal, we literally do MW to ourselves is just .... to much. The price to pay for that additional firepower is just not worth it, if you ask me.
I think Khomentis might have some play as a means to Daemon Surging. The main reason for daemonic surge is to get Daemonic Fortitude - I would gladly trade 1MW to get Transknight on my models against certain opponents, it will more than make up for that 1 wound in. Bind the Souls of the Slain strat can potentially help make up for some of the MW too. Problem is that even with Khomentis Household Bond IMO its still too unreliable, I don't think 1MW is worth +1 to wound on one weapon or +3" Mv. Even w/ the re-roll you still only have about a 50/50 shot of getting that Transknight ability, and I don't know that risking 2-3MW is worth it in order to score Transknight + another surge ability. I think even using Khomentis this is not a "do to every knight every turn" type buff but rather a selectively once per game per knight type thing, unless you're up against one of those rare few opponents where paying a couple MW per turn to get Transknight might make a difference in the outcome of the game.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: I like your way of thinking! I came also to the conclusion that 3 Big Knights are the maximum, getting 4 means either no or just one wardog which is really no good idea as wardogs are basically must haves.
I am still toying around with ways to build Despoilers. Double-Battlecannon with Dark Forging as Dreadblade would end up in a huge load of dice as well as 12 shots that ignore LoS at S6 D2 with the potential of killing some heroes.
Double Gatling seems also tempting due to 24 shots + 2D6 Autohits from the flamer. As a dreadblade the Precision Cruelty Bond would set the AP a bit up which seems almost necessary (although not reliable). Another option for the Gatling is using the Deamonic Surge to add +1 to the wound roll, which sadly does only apply to one of the two guns. A Gatling+Meele Weapon Despoiler in house Khormentis seems like quite a versatile pick, especially when using the Blasphemous Engine. It could move at 13”, Wounding better with the Gatling, still hitting hard in Meele and also taking quite a toll until the profile starts bracketing.
I still have to find a way to utilise the thermal cannon, currently it doesn’t look like that much of a good pick
I'm still gunshy about the price hike for fielding dual weapons, you're looking at about 500 points for any sort of dual-gun knight. I think the better way to go is to take battlecannon + gatling or battlecannon + thermal, use the 20pts you save to get the twin autocannon - or if you're feeling adventurous try out the ruinspear rocket pod. Havoc missile pod is cute too, but I think doesn't bring enough to the table that the army really needs. The problem is though that Tyrant only costs about 100pts more but brings more dakka to the table w/ 4 extra wounds and a better save, so I don't know that you can entirely justify a pure shooty Despoiler for the price.
Just played a home game with my son, brother and nephew in a 2v2 2k team game. I ran a Herpetrax Tyrant with flames/harpoon and two executioners and was paired up with some Death Guard. We played against Salamanders and Nids. We won a nail biter!
Some observations:
Bow to None is just great. My Tyrant ran that with Blessing of the Dark Master and the Traitors Mark. With the extra wounds plus the lack of rerolls and some screening by my partner, I was able to run amok for three turns and really dominate the center of the board. Even in the face of multiple squads of reserved eradicators, venom cannons, a charging swarmlord and eventually even the named Primaris salamanders guy, I was able to stay up and shooting those three turns.
Next, even though the tyrant is slower, the Flamer and harpoon shoot longer.
The mortals on the harpoon happens when an attack is allocated to a model. I need some clarification on that but that seems awesome and better than any other mortal delivery device I can find.
House Herpetrax has been working well for me too. Its not just only the increased wounds, it also means that it takes more damage before our knights bracket. And the Iconoclast ambitions are really good too.
I feel pretty overwhelmed by the traits and god-marks.
I have a volcano cannon tyrant, Desocrator, 4 huntsman and 2 executioners, and I have 50pts spare. What do folks recommend for an army trait, and God marks?
I kinda like the idea of making a couple of the knights psykers to take advantage of the powers, but the no-rerolls and gain cp from enemy marks are nice too.
the Favor Warp-Born Stalker is good for the Tyrant. You can deep-strike it in and be in a much better place to position and ensure good firing lanes with it. It doesn't even have to be close when you do so, but you have the option.
The Favor Blessing of the Dark Master is the best defensive one in the game. I'd put it on your Desecrator. That does put you 10 points over. If you don't have the points, you could look at Mirror of Fates instead. CP regen and a 6 to put into a saving throw isn't bad.
For household Bond I'd look at Infernal House Vextrix. They can reroll a hit and a wound each time they shoot. Your set up would benefit from it a lot.
jaredb wrote: Hey man, I appreciate the advice! I'll try those out for sure. Never thought about deepstriking the tyrant, but that could be fun!
I would start with House Hepetrax. Its easy to remember. You just start all your war dogs with +2W and your big knights with +4W. It keeps your army in play longer and it requires more before they fall to a lower damage bracket. So you get more play out of them, and you then get a better feel with what your chaos knights army can do.
After you have gotten more play into it, then you can experiment with other households if you want.
Deep striking the tyrant is definitely a thing. Should be able to squeeze out 10 points from elsewhere. Or even the Tyrant itself if you go with 4 missiles and 1 twin breaker siege cannon only.
Tyrant is good for shooty households. You could explore making the tyrant a dreadblade, give it the Rune of Naktugraa and give it two fell bonds. This way, your tyrant can have entirely different fell bonds than your household bond. And you get to pick and choose the 2 best fell bonds you want for your customized dread blade Tyrant.
I would suggest one of the fell bonds be prideful wrath (counts as double remaining wounds on the damage table). You kind of want your tyrant to be shooting at BS3 for as long as possible. Once it drops to BS4 or worse, it doesn't matter how powerful the guns you are packing if you are missing many of your shots.
Also ... chaos knights will definitely get into melee combat. So, the idea that you can somehow stand back and only shoot is an impractical idea. I have had zero games so far where I didn't end up in close combat melee with almost all of my knights. So Iconoclast's ambition where you have +1 attack and +1 AP on charge or being charged is definitely useful.
A "shooty" chaos knight army is better at shooting, but it will still end up fighting in melee as well. Its just the nature of the 40k game. Its not like you can avoid close combat. If you want to get onto an objective, you are going to end up charging onto it even if you brought knights which were outfitted for shooting. Even if you didn't charge someone, your opponents are going to charge you instead.
I am showing my bias. But Iconoclast is just useful every single game because its almost impossible to avoid melee combat. Meanwhile, going infernal households and using demon surge adds more complexity and skill level required. (Skill I acknowledge I may not even have at this point).
The mortals on the harpoon happens when an attack is allocated to a model. I need some clarification on that but that seems awesome and better than any other mortal delivery device I can find.
I noticed this too, and haven't been able to find anyone else talking about it until now. I'm guessing it's been ignored due to how out of favour the Tyrants are currently.
Clearly we could be encountering some poorly written rules here, but as written, you're quite right - the target takes the mortal wound component merely when the attack is allocated. Seemingly, it doesn't have to wound, or potentially even hit. This doesn't feel entirely right, but I'd argue it's a reasonable reading of the RAW:
'Each time an attack made with this weapon is allocated to a model, that model's unit suffers 3 mortal wounds in addition to any normal damage'.
The problem is definitely in the words 'attack' and 'allocated'. We normally talk about allocating an attack from a ranged weapon when we select its target. I suspect the writer intended this to mean when damage is allocated, but I'd love some discussion on this from people.
Step 3 of the "Making Attacks" sequence is "Allocate Attacks" (Step 1 is Hit Roll, Step 2 is Wound Roll) - its in the rulebook. Its not really something thats up for interpretation IMO, nor is it poorly written, etc. The MWs are dealt if you successfully roll to wound.
If there was any uncertainty, the wording of the ability is "each time an attack made with this weapon is allocated to a model..." - you do not allocate an attack to a model when you select the target, because you are very specifically selecting a target unit, not a model. The attack sequence is based around the concept of a target unit until Step 3, when the attack (specifically an attack which has successfully wounded, as per the first sentence of Step 3) is specifically allocated to a model within the target unit. Clear as crystal.
chaos0xomega wrote: Step 3 of the "Making Attacks" sequence is "Allocate Attacks" (Step 1 is Hit Roll, Step 2 is Wound Roll) - its in the rulebook. Its not really something thats up for interpretation IMO, nor is it poorly written, etc. The MWs are dealt if you successfully roll to wound.
If there was any uncertainty, the wording of the ability is "each time an attack made with this weapon is allocated to a model..." - you do not allocate an attack to a model when you select the target, because you are very specifically selecting a target unit, not a model. The attack sequence is based around the concept of a target unit until Step 3, when the attack (specifically an attack which has successfully wounded, as per the first sentence of Step 3) is specifically allocated to a model within the target unit. Clear as crystal.
I think your interpretation is entirely correct, and thank you, that's cleared it up for me.
I don't agree that it's well written though because it isn't particularly intuitive if you're not specifically looking at the base rule book. Unless you know by rote the exact wording of the BRB, my feeling is 'attack', intuitively, doesn't immediately bring to mind the allocation stage they intend.
It's certainly consistent with the BRB, but I think 'attack' is more ambiguous than other terms might have been in the midst of a game.
Bit of a shame too. It could have helped out a decidedly unloved unit, with a decidedly unreliable weapon.
Chaos knight melee capabilities are nerfed since full tilt disappeared and brigands are much better. Not counting the Vextrix synergy.
Axioma: Don't expect much damage from Stalkers, and Karnivores has 0 shooting resources and they will deal 0 damage half of the matches. Vextrix brigands spam will always have a better winrate.
chaos0xomega wrote: Step 3 of the "Making Attacks" sequence is "Allocate Attacks" (Step 1 is Hit Roll, Step 2 is Wound Roll) - its in the rulebook. Its not really something thats up for interpretation IMO, nor is it poorly written, etc. The MWs are dealt if you successfully roll to wound.
If there was any uncertainty, the wording of the ability is "each time an attack made with this weapon is allocated to a model..." - you do not allocate an attack to a model when you select the target, because you are very specifically selecting a target unit, not a model. The attack sequence is based around the concept of a target unit until Step 3, when the attack (specifically an attack which has successfully wounded, as per the first sentence of Step 3) is specifically allocated to a model within the target unit. Clear as crystal.
I don't agree that it's well written though because it isn't particularly intuitive if you're not specifically looking at the base rule book. Unless you know by rote the exact wording of the BRB, my feeling is 'attack', intuitively, doesn't immediately bring to mind the allocation stage they intend.
Chalk it up to a decade spent playing Warmachine, but these are the kind of rules distinctions I consider to be important and pay close attention to, as they are key to understanding rules timing and mechanical interaction. You don't have to know the rulebook by rote or be staring at it as you read the rules, but you do need to know the sequence of events in the resolution process - knowing what those steps are/ that one of them is called "allocate attacks" is something that all but freshest, greenest players still learning the ropes should be aware of and familiarize themselves with.
Theres a reason why they may refer to it as "allocate attack" as opposed to what may initially seem a more intuitive/less ambiguous wording like when a unit is "successfully wounded". GW broke down the resolution process into a series of discrete and clearly worded steps. "Select Target", and then the "Make Attacks" sequence consisting of 1. Hit Roll, 2. Wound Roll, 3. Allocate Attack, 4. Saving Throw, 5. Inflict Damage. If they want an ability to trigger when a unit is targeted, they write that the effect triggers when "a unit is selected as a target for an attack with this weapon" (or whatever their standard wording is). If they want it to trigger when a unit is hit, they write that it triggers "when the target unit is hit by an attack from this weapon", etc. etc. etc. Regardless of when the effect triggers, they can easily designate which point in the sequence that happens with a short phrase with no ambiguity or confusion as to what is being described. Some of those distinctions in timing might appear somewhat aribtrary - why trigger "each time an attack made with this weapon is allocated to a model" vs "when an attack made with this weapon successfully wounds the target unit" (again, or whatever the standard wording is), for example? Well, its all in the timing of it and how it interacts with other rules. Using the Harpoon as an example, those mortal wounds can be prevented if the target unit had an ability that triggered at some point in the Roll Wounds step that allowed them to cancel the attack before it could proceed further, because the MW effect doesn't trigger until the attack allocation step, which occurs afterwards. I.E. hypothetically if a unit an ability that said something to the effect of "Roll a die each time this unit is successfully wounded by an attack, on a 5+ the attack sequence for that attack immediately ends", then that unit would not suffer the mortal wounds from the Harpoon because those wounds are not dealt until the next step of the attack sequence. If however, the Thundercoil Harpoons rules read that the target unit suffers mortal wounds "when an attack made with this weapon successfully wounds the target unit" (or something to that effect) instead, then that ability would not block the mortal wounds from occurring. Whether such abilities actually exist/its a valid interaction, I can't say (and if they did, GW would likely need to clarify in an FAQ that the Thundercoil Harpoon w/ MWs triggering on a wound roll would still do MWs against a unit with such an ability because it would be a definite point of debate by the community) - but I will note that this isn't the only rule in the game that triggers when an attack is allocated to a model - disgustingly resilient has the same wording. In general though, I have found GWs wording to be sloppy and inconsistent with these types of abilities and effects and lacking standardization, so its quite possible this is simply a result of that rather than an intentional result of a timing/sequencing concern.
Kebabcito wrote: Chaos knight melee capabilities are nerfed since full tilt disappeared and brigands are much better. Not counting the Vextrix synergy.
Axioma: Don't expect much damage from Stalkers, and Karnivores has 0 shooting resources and they will deal 0 damage half of the matches. Vextrix brigands spam will always have a better winrate.
Perhaps. But one unit being able to do a turn 1 charge is not going to be reliable to win the game anyway. I personally prefer the entire army moving up on turn 1 and then shooting, and then turn 2, shooting plus charging the entire army into battle.
Chaos knights can both shoot and fight in melee, and its a waste to rely solely on only one or the other.
A quick question; the Worthy Offerings Iconoclast Household Fell Bond works at range as well as in melee, yes? So my many Executioners would benefit from a 2+ BS & WS when targeting the appropriate target?
bmsattler wrote: I'm looking forward to testing a Rampager + 5 Stalkers + 6 Karnivores in an Iconoclast household.
Current 2nd place at Bugeater is CK list almost exactly what you are describing, in Herpatrax.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kebabcito wrote: Chaos knight melee capabilities are nerfed since full tilt disappeared and brigands are much better. Not counting the Vextrix synergy.
Axioma: Don't expect much damage from Stalkers, and Karnivores has 0 shooting resources and they will deal 0 damage half of the matches. Vextrix brigands spam will always have a better winrate.
This isn't really bearing out in reality right now. There have been several podium finishes for CK so far, and nearly all of them have been Iconoclast with some Big Knights.
bmsattler wrote: I'm looking forward to testing a Rampager + 5 Stalkers + 6 Karnivores in an Iconoclast household.
Current 2nd place at Bugeater is CK list almost exactly what you are describing, in Herpatrax.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kebabcito wrote: Chaos knight melee capabilities are nerfed since full tilt disappeared and brigands are much better. Not counting the Vextrix synergy.
Axioma: Don't expect much damage from Stalkers, and Karnivores has 0 shooting resources and they will deal 0 damage half of the matches. Vextrix brigands spam will always have a better winrate.
This isn't really bearing out in reality right now. There have been several podium finishes for CK so far, and nearly all of them have been Iconoclast with some Big Knights.
I second this... if you could win a tournament playing an all out shooty CK list, then you probably could have won that same tournament playing a shooty Tau list with much less effort. Its such a pity to waste the awesome 5 model obsec ability of our war dogs, our counts as 10 model big knights, our T7T8 durability, and our good fighting abilities to only focus on shooting our opponent off the board.
In same vein. Its costs so little to add some shooting ability to our units. A desecrator is also WS2, and can be almost as much a combat monster as a Rampager, and yet it has an awesome laser cannon that can melt tank which the rampager doesn't. They both cost the same. Is that 2 inch movement and 1 additional attack really so important? (There are other ways to +1 attack).
Even for a war dog. A double gun war dog shoots well yes, but then it hits like a noodle in close combat. A war dog with a shooty gun and a melee weapon like a chain talon shoots well and fights well too. You dare to aggressively charge it into an enemy unit onto an objective. And even if you have such a war dog in your backline. If someone deep strikes in and then fails their charge, you can take the fight to them by shooting them and then charging them in your turn instead of waiting for the inevitable charge.
Yes a double gun war dog shoots better than a single gun war dog. But I wouldn't trade it for the versatility of of a single gun war dog with chain talon. I just don't think the additional shooting is going to be so crutch vs the need for melee combat in every game.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Even for a war dog. A double gun war dog shoots well yes, but then it hits like a noodle in close combat. A war dog with a shooty gun and a melee weapon like a chain talon shoots well and fights well too. You dare to aggressively charge it into an enemy unit onto an objective. And even if you have such a war dog in your backline. If someone deep strikes in and then fails their charge, you can take the fight to them by shooting them and then charging them in your turn instead of waiting for the inevitable charge.
Yes a double gun war dog shoots better than a single gun war dog. But I wouldn't trade it for the versatility of of a single gun war dog with chain talon. I just don't think the additional shooting is going to be so crutch vs the need for melee combat in every game.
I think that you are overlooking the fact that Huntsmen and Executioners can still use their guns in combat. None of the weapons on them, the Autocannons, the meltaguns, the heavy stubbers, or that demonbreath spear, are blast.
Sure they lose some accuracy, but they don't lose the punch of their guns. And if they are Iconoclast, they aren't just going to be flailing around in the first round of combat either.
Vextrix brigands x9 are so strong they are a smash into the meta and just a faceroll. Loyal armigers x13 were powerful in early 9th but this is just insanely powerful.
I’ve got a few more games under my belt and from my perspective, melee Wardogs mixed up with shooty big boys might be the best way to play. I’ve played on terrain dense boards and moving the big knights around is straight up difficult, especially if Im trying to get them into melee. Sure, their fire lanes suck too, but at least in deter people from putting anything in those fire lanes at all. The melee dogs are able to take just about any objective they can reach, and since they are smaller, can actually get a lot of places and not get shot on the way. Often I find myself killing off units on objectives down to 3 or 4 models and controlling it because of the obsec+5 rule.
As far as houses, I’m in love with Herpetrax being iconoclast, mainly because of Iconoclast. I like the WL trait on a big knight so far.
For fluff reasons (my Knights have got caught up in the cult of personality of the Black Legion), I am sticking to an Iconocast house except House Herpetrax because of their, 'Bow to No One'. Originally, I went Lucaris, as they best fit fluffwise, but there really isn't anything there ruleswise I like. At first, I thought the re-roll 1 die worked for ranged and melee, but taking another look; I think it is just melee. And I want my Knight Army to be like my marine ones: fairly balanced at both ranged and melee. Speaking further about House Lucaris, I don't like First Strike as a personal preference, the strat is okay and the relic appears bad. So I think I am just going to go with the generic Prideful Wrath instead. Since that subfraction trait should have a much wider base of usefulness.
For my army list, I plan on a Desecrator as the Warlord with The Diamonas and the Dread Knight Favor (I always prefer Chaos Undivided). Not the best, but I like the Desecrator model, and it makes the most sense in my army to be the warlord being the closest to a Chaos Lord. I don't have a Warlord trait I especially like, but Aura of Terror or Harbinger of Scrapcode being my favorites at the moment.
The Abominant with Dark Master Favor, Winds of the Warp and either Vortex Terrors or Coruscating Hate. I do like this Knight being the tip of the spear for my army to tank what damage it can for the rest while being somewhat of a threat if ignored. I'm not sure, if I have put enough into defense to allow that, or if it is possible to deny it being destroyed Turn 1 by a tenacious opponent. But it did win me my 1st Chaos Knight game by reaching my opponent's Death Guard deathstar and dealing 20+ MW with Spiteful Demise.
Finally, I plan on 6-7 (I only have 6 right now) War Dogs leaning heavily on the Stalker datasheet (I like how balanced ranged and melee is on it), but also a couple of Brigands and Karnivores. Which leaves me enough points for a few Favors for my War Dogs. But I haven't nailed down exactly what pre-game stuff I want to give them yet.
I am very likely to take another Relic, as I think there are a bunch of worthwhile ones. I like Helm of Dogs. I also think Panoply of the Cursed Knight could be useful in keeping my Abominant alive just a little longer, as some armies can push through a lot of AP-2 or less shots, and I'd like to have options on where and when to use Diabolic Bulwark. But I don't know yet.
I too played Lucaris with the previous incarnation, and I switched to the Worthy Offerings Fell Bond.
I can also say that I am extremely wary of taking a fight first ability as I have destroyed opponents who used melee builds against me.
I feel that Chaos knights might get off relatively "lightly" from the new chapter approved changes. We don't usually start with just 6CP even currently. So, I think we are ok with starting with just 6CP instead of 12 CP. Even if you add in the 2CP we need to pay for our warlord trait and relic, I think we will still be ok.
Most of our lists aren't that CP starved and still perfectly possible to field even with the new CP changes.
And chaos knights are more about their existing rules. We aren't really about blowing 4 to 6 cp on some big strategem combo. So, we won't be affected so much by the CP changes. Just my 2 cents. What do you all think?
Just to add to this. If we really wanted to cut some fat. There aren't that many warlord traits or relics which are "absolutely essential or we would be a bad army". Most of them are "great to have but not essential". So, its not like we absolutely have to spend 4 or 6 CP on relics and warlord traits just to get a competitive army.
Concerning the CACP changes, I am inclined to agree they shouldn't affect Chaos Knights as much.
Honestly, I can take or leave Warlord traits available for Iconoclast knights. There are some okay ones, but nothing that makes me think I absolutely must have it to spend CP every list. Relics on the other hand, I do like a few of them. However, I think I can limit myself to one or two relics I really like and work from there.
Much of the power I think for Chaos Knights are in favors. Which skip the whole CP issue entirely. So while, I don't expect I'll be subject to the latest CA (lots of players are stating they are going pure Tempest or 30k), I'm not broken up by what it does to my Chaos Knights army list.
Outsider guessing into tournament play with the changes to Chaos Knights has me to think that they are going to continue to be what they are: middling, gatekeepers with a high amount of swing to occasionally do well.
Chaos Knights FAQ is out. Biggest change is that the Storm of Shadows secondary can only be started in the knights morale phase instead of 'the morale phase.'
Yep, I would agree with the 12 VP cap. Less useful now, though I still like the synergy with the Dread abilities. Now that we have access to more knight-specific secondaries access to the Shadow Ops section is a little less useful, but still relevant.
I ran my list as Infernal House Vextrix yesterday evening (I normally run it as Iconoclast House Herpetrax). I won by a good margin, and the shooting buffs were great, but I'm not convinced about taking 5MW on every knight over an entire game
I think if my opponent had been wounding me more that could have been problematic...
bmsattler wrote: You get to choose whether to use the Infernal boost or not. Just don't do it unless it will make a meaningful contribution to the game.
Okay, I should have read the rules more thoroughly
Just got my first game hands on with Knights vs GSC. I tried a lot of different stuff as it is still learning time. Used House Korvus because it is what I will play in upcoming Crusade games. Korvus itself feels ok, the additional trait from Dread table is an okay boon but damn, Korvus really suffers from the awfull Ambotion. While +1 to wound or transhuman would be nice in general, it really does not justify the damage taken. Due to what models were available I played 3 Despoilers and 1 Abominant. Abominant itself is solid, especially the -1 Bravery was handy. I played a Dreadblade with two cannons and the Dark Forge trait. It was a quite usefull pick and almost justified the points, if there was not a major trap I stepped in: Shadow Stalker. Loosing a turn of shooting led to the typical snowball effect we know from 40k. Meanwhile 12 shots with S6 D2 that ignore LookOutSir at 40“ is nothing to laugh at, especially against armies without AoC. While I really do not get the point of the double-loadout-tax, especially on Blade+Claw Despoilers who will be played as Dreadblades anyway, I habe to say that playing 1-2 Knights with 2 different big guns seems valid when accompanied by some Wardogs. While playing for the Dread Abilities I used the WL Trait that forces the opponent to roll an additional dice and I have to say I love it. It is just a nasty upscale for both, morale and dread rolls that suddenly turns both in to a valid mechanic.
Had my second game with my Chaos Knights with their 9th edition book yesterday.
desocrator warlord with Aura of Terror and 2+ armour save
tyrant with valcano cannon
x1 brigand
x3 stalkers
x2 karnivores
have two executioners I wasn't using as well. Might try and get 2nd hand bits to turn them into brigands.
I ran them with Infernal, and the custom trait of S7 or less -1 damage.
played against Eldar, and the trait didn't really help too much, but I did well in the game. Got lucky and kill off his wave serpent and fire dragons the top of t1, which was huge.
I really liked the infernal +3 to move on the karnivores, made them very fast.
Not sure of the trait I used was the best option, but did okay for me. Still not sure what the best house option is for my collection.
The tyrant with volcano cannon didn't really accomplish much. I can't afford to replace it with another abominant or more wardogs ATM, so have to try and make it work. Not sure if converting it to have the flamer and hook and play him aggressive would be a better bet.
The Tyrant isn't well supported in the new Codexes. I think you would be better off swapping him out like you mentioned.
Infernal has some good house options. Vextrix is the popular choice, their rerolls give your shooting phase a great deal more consistency.
The standard game plan for Chaos Knights is to load one up with Aura of Terror and as many defensive buffs as you can, and cram it into the middle of their lines to try to take advantage of Gheiststorm to force them to focus on it instead of your more vulnerable War Dogs. The Abominant is a favorite for that role due to its easy access to the 5+++ FNP. It does suffer from having lower offensive output, so some people use a Rampager or Desecrator for the role instead.
Having some Havoc Launchers is starting to sound like a good idea to help against units like Sister's Repentia or Ork Grots hiding on objectives. Chaos Knights don't have the best secondary objectives, so having plans to disrupt your opponents secondaries can help balance that out in your favor.
I've found ruthless tyranny and their shadow operation secondary to be very good for them.
Replacing the tyrant isn't an option for me atm, due to finances. Do you think the flamer and hook option is better for it, or the lance and plasma? If finances allowed, I'd get an abominant, but I can't.
I think that the harpoon is worse than the volcano lance, and the flamer is roughly the same as the plasma. The extra range that the volcano lance version gets is a big deal, as this guy isn't very good in melee. I like the idea of giving the Tyrant Warp-Born Stalker to let it deep-strike into a lane of fire on your best target. I'd also go for Dreadblade and the re-roll 1's to hit at closer range to go along with it.
The 1D3 shots for the Volcano Lance really sucks, and its hard for me to argue that the Volcano Lance is better than a standard Thermal Cannon with that few shots. Overall I think that the Chaos Knights play best as a pressure army, pushing the enemy hard and making it hard for them to push back due to the Aura of Dread abilities making charges unreliable against us. Look at what your playstyle is, and develop an army that plays to it.
Got my first game with Chaos Knights coming up tomorrow, not sure what my opponent will be running as he has many options and is still undecided. Heres my list (sorry if the formatting is a problem, I hate Battlescribe, don't use it):
LORD OF WAR - War Dog Karnivore x2
-War Dog Karnivore (Character, Warlord) w/ Diabolus Heavy Stubber, Warlord Trait: Knight Diabolus, Arch-Tyrant: Eager for the Kill, Relic: Helm of Dogs, Khorne: Throne Mechanicum of Skulls (155pts, -3CP)
-War Dog Karnivore w/ Diabolus Heavy Stubber (140pts)
LORD OF WAR - War Dog Brigand x2
-War Dog Brigand w/ Havoc multi-launcer (160pts)
-War Dog Brigand w/ Havoc multi-launcer (160pts)
LORD OF WAR - War Dog Stalker x2
-War Dog Stalker w/ Daemonbreath Spear, Diabolus Heavy Stubber, Slaughterclaw (145pts)
-War Dog Stalker w/ Daemonbreath Spear, Diabolus Heavy Stubber, Slaughterclaw (145pts)
LORD OF WAR - War Dog Stalker x2
-War Dog Stalker w/ Avenger Chaincannon, Diabolus Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chaintalon, Nurgle: Blessing of a Thousand Poxes (160pts)
-War Dog Stalker w/ Avenger Chaincannon, Diabolus Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chaintalon (145pts)
LORD OF WAR - War Dog Huntsman x2
-War Dog Huntsman w/ Daemonbreath meltagun (150pts)
-War Dog Huntsman w/ Daemonbreath meltagun (150pts)
SUPER-HEAVY DETACHMENT (Dreadblade), 0CP
LORD OF WAR - War Dog Executioner x3 (Dreadblade Fell Bond: Precision Cruelty)
-War Dog Executioner w/ Diabolus Heavy Stubber, Tzeentch: Mirror of Fates (170pts)
-War Dog Executioner w/ Diabolus Heavy Stubber (155pts)
-War Dog Executioner w/ Diabolus Heavy Stubber (155pts)
Had my second game yesterday, this time against Blood Angels (first time around was vs what is basically TJ Lannigans Thousand Sons list from ACO), used updated list without Knight Diabolus (so starting the game with 1 CP as I made Eager for the Kill my WLT and didn't take Arch-Tyrant).
Opponent conceded at the bottom of turn 2 despite a rocky start on my end. Once again, Warlord got murdered turn 1, this time in melee by a unit of death company rather than MW psychic power spam. Warlord exploded and dealt 1 MW to the death company, but hit the 5 nearby wardogs for 11 MWs as I had yet to move and was still clustered up in my deployment zone. Even still, I managed to grab some objectives on my turn and destroyed a couple of his units in return, and then his turn 2 was ineffectual due to him repeatedly rolling double 1s on charge rolls (as in, he would roll double 1s, re-roll and still come up with double 1s). Out of 4 declared charges he only pulled one off (and it was the throwaway charge for the last man standing in a unit of Sang Guard, who I then proceeded to plaster into the ground after he knocked a couple wounds off one of my dogs), and thus I managed to catch most of his army standing in the open which resulted in the murder of 2 more units of Sang Guard, an Ancient and Dante himself.
chaos0xomega wrote: Had my second game yesterday, this time against Blood Angels (first time around was vs what is basically TJ Lannigans Thousand Sons list from ACO), used updated list without Knight Diabolus (so starting the game with 1 CP as I made Eager for the Kill my WLT and didn't take Arch-Tyrant).
Opponent conceded at the bottom of turn 2 despite a rocky start on my end. Once again, Warlord got murdered turn 1, this time in melee by a unit of death company rather than MW psychic power spam. Warlord exploded and dealt 1 MW to the death company, but hit the 5 nearby wardogs for 11 MWs as I had yet to move and was still clustered up in my deployment zone. Even still, I managed to grab some objectives on my turn and destroyed a couple of his units in return, and then his turn 2 was ineffectual due to him repeatedly rolling double 1s on charge rolls (as in, he would roll double 1s, re-roll and still come up with double 1s). Out of 4 declared charges he only pulled one off (and it was the throwaway charge for the last man standing in a unit of Sang Guard, who I then proceeded to plaster into the ground after he knocked a couple wounds off one of my dogs), and thus I managed to catch most of his army standing in the open which resulted in the murder of 2 more units of Sang Guard, an Ancient and Dante himself.
This is really interesting, thanks for your updates. I have been playing desecrator and 10 wardogs. Even in that setup I find a lot of the time my wardogs struggle for space to move and can end up moveblocking themselves particularly if they get charged. What sort of terrain do you play on?
How do you use your karnivores. with only 2 there isn't much redundancy. Are they your bait to get shot early?
Thats a lot of melta you are running as well. When I have tried that number of daemonbreath I tend to find some or most lack line of sight to get good targets. I play on dense boards but I imagine player placed gives you a lot of flex for that sort of build.
chaos0xomega wrote: Had my second game yesterday, this time against Blood Angels (first time around was vs what is basically TJ Lannigans Thousand Sons list from ACO), used updated list without Knight Diabolus (so starting the game with 1 CP as I made Eager for the Kill my WLT and didn't take Arch-Tyrant).
Opponent conceded at the bottom of turn 2 despite a rocky start on my end. Once again, Warlord got murdered turn 1, this time in melee by a unit of death company rather than MW psychic power spam. Warlord exploded and dealt 1 MW to the death company, but hit the 5 nearby wardogs for 11 MWs as I had yet to move and was still clustered up in my deployment zone. Even still, I managed to grab some objectives on my turn and destroyed a couple of his units in return, and then his turn 2 was ineffectual due to him repeatedly rolling double 1s on charge rolls (as in, he would roll double 1s, re-roll and still come up with double 1s). Out of 4 declared charges he only pulled one off (and it was the throwaway charge for the last man standing in a unit of Sang Guard, who I then proceeded to plaster into the ground after he knocked a couple wounds off one of my dogs), and thus I managed to catch most of his army standing in the open which resulted in the murder of 2 more units of Sang Guard, an Ancient and Dante himself.
This is really interesting, thanks for your updates. I have been playing desecrator and 10 wardogs. Even in that setup I find a lot of the time my wardogs struggle for space to move and can end up moveblocking themselves particularly if they get charged. What sort of terrain do you play on?
How do you use your karnivores. with only 2 there isn't much redundancy. Are they your bait to get shot early?
Thats a lot of melta you are running as well. When I have tried that number of daemonbreath I tend to find some or most lack line of sight to get good targets. I play on dense boards but I imagine player placed gives you a lot of flex for that sort of build.
Terrain at the shop basically follows the old ITC standard (i.e. angles, angles everywhere), its fairly dense with lots of LOS blockers and medium-length fire lanes.
The Karnivores haven't really lasted long enough in general for me to get good use out of them, they are meant to get up close and personal clear objectives and tarpits off as a sort of "spot removal" for a big variety of targets, but so far both opponents I have played prioritized killing them first for whatever reason (even though there were other wardogs that were equally as accessible). I suspect part of it is that both lists I played against had no vehicles whatsoever, so the daemonbreath spears don't pose as much of a threat (and marines aren't bothered by avenger chaincannons). I usually deploy my executioners to the rear, so getting to them is a challenge for my opponent and thus they don't usually have much to worry about it.
That being said, even though 6 daemonbreath spears does feel like too much, they have been probably the most reliable ranged weapon in the list (after Havoc launchers and heavy stubbers, lol - its become a meme that my opponents roll all their 1s trying to save against them) - but that data is thus far skewed by the fact that I've only played against MEQ lists. The avenger chaincannons generally just don't seem to cut it (especially not with Armor of Contempt being a factor) and the autocannons do good work but haven't bit quite as consistent. Aside from that, I've been leaning heavily on the melee capabilities of the war dogs to finish up whatever the guns don't manage to kill. I'll be updating the list after I get a few more games in against more varied opponents, so we'll see what happens.
Chaos knights just got a big boost from Chaos Daemons codex. We can include up to 25% of the power level in chaos daemons into a CK list as allies without it breaking our rules. This is rather big. Because now we can take infantry units in order to perform actions if we want to without having to worry about them breaking our rules.
Problem is now daemon infantry is a bit on the pricey side and theres no option to take anything less than a unit of 10 troops, so you're not going to get away with taking a few 5 man MSUs of plaguebearers as objective/action caddies.
So, the "cheapest" detachment I can get with two infantry units and a greater daemon is as follows:
1 Keeper of Secrets - 14 power level (PL)
1 daemonette troop - 6 PL 1 unit of Flamers - 3 PL
Total: 23 PL and 475 points.
The Keeper of Secrets is basically like a cheaper, more fragile but slightly less killy Rampager, but she moves 16 inches and has -1 to hit, and is 4++ against shooting all the time.
With 1525 points remaining, should not be difficult to get at least 70 PL or more and we can run all sorts of stuff, including 1 big knight and 7 war dogs, with buffs. Or 3 big knights with buffs.
So, now we get 2 infantry units that can perform actions (like raise banners). The flamer can sit in the backline and hold a backline objective, and be irritating to kill (its tzeentch after all). It has fly, so if you want to be aggressive and fly it up the board to raise a banner, it can do that as well.
The Keeper of secrets can also help make doing warpcraft secondaries easier as well because she can cast psychic too. If she gets focused down, that's fine, because she is less than 75% of the points cost of a big knight. If we can squeeze in the PL and the points, we can pay 35 points and +2 PL to give her Diaphanous Panopoly which is -1 to wound. That would essentially make her into a Be'lakor in terms of defense.
We can still take everything including chaos knight secondaries, relics and warlord traits and we don't lose our Harbringers of Dread ability.
Plus one more bonus. Daemons cause -1 to leadership. This mesh very well with our Dread ability. If we are triggering our Dread ability near to the Keeper of secrets, our opponent will be testing on a -2 on our dread abilities.
I think all that sounds better on paper than it is in practice. 3 Flamers are not particularly irritating to kill, especially not without the strategem and buff support you're losing by taking them as allies. Flamers biggest asset is their killiness, which you're not going to take advantage of by camping them in your backfield. Likewise 10 daemonettes will die to a stiff breeze. In reality, you are probably better off using the daemonettes as the backline objective campers and using the flamers to raise banners.
Chaos knights having access to raise the banners just sounds very interesting to me. I mean, we could go cheap with a herald of Slanaash / Transweaver. The points saved could then allow us to bring two units of flamers instead of one, and maybe change to a unit pink horrors instead of daemonettes.
So, everything except the Transweaver is tzeentch and has a 3++ daemonic save, so it super irritating to kill. Have the pink horror squad raising a banner on your home objective.
The Transweaver moves 9 inches, and the two units of flamers are 12 inch flying infantry that can literally raise a banner on a midboard objective on turn 1. You could potentially raise 4 banners with these 4 units on turn 1.
Once they are raise, the rest of the army, if its all wardogs, will be filling the board with T7 obsec. It is honestly going to be a nightmare taking down those banners after that.
And once they have raise the banners on turn 1, they have done their job, but can still shoot. With the rest of the army filled with 1600 points worth of wardogs, I think your opponent will have a lot more to worry about than trying to kill some tzeentch daemons with a 3++ daemonic save to shooting. Flamers are actually extremely point efficient against shooting. A unit of 3 flamers is 75 points for 9W which have a 3++ against shooting. And such a unit flies 12 inches too, so they are actually not easy to catch in melee unless you let them.
And with this contingent being agents of chaos, chaos knights retain our Ruthless Tyranny secondary right?
Plus the Transweaver can even allow us to take warp storm secondaries like warp ritual or psychic interrogation if we are so inclined. (Just don't get her killed lol).
It just feels like by the time they deal with our 1600 points of chaos knights, this 370 points of daemons would have scored enough points for it to be too late for our opponent to come back.
Is there any way of including units from another chaos faction in a Chaos Knights list without losing detachment abilities? I have a 1,900pt list and it would be really useful to be able to bring a character or something to get it up to 2,000pts.
dreadblade wrote: Is there any way of including units from another chaos faction in a Chaos Knights list without losing detachment abilities? I have a 1,900pt list and it would be really useful to be able to bring a character or something to get it up to 2,000pts.
Harbingers of Dread works so long as every model in your army is either Chaos Knights, Agents of Chaos, or unaligned. Easiest access to Agents of Chaos is Abaddon in a supcom detachment or a patrol of Daemons, neither of those will get in under 100 points though.
Yep. Something like 300-380 could give pretty solid tzeentch patrol though. Foot herald to cast and buff up to 6 flamers(bonkers good) and 10 horrors to camp objective that ain't worth shooting.
But "bit" more than 100. Could pay 2cp for aux det for one unit but while 4 flamers would be good no deepstrike with just 1 unit limiting them.
I need some help with the following: I really want to toughen up the Karnivores because they're going to be taking a lot of incoming fire after the first move. Different way's in doing that but I'am not sure about the right setup.
Options:
Vextrix warlord trait: +1 wound and heal d3 wounds each command phase
Warlord trait: warp hunted hull: 5+ feel no pain in the psychic phase and extra deny the witch
Dreadblade: gheists of ruin (light cover outside 18 inch shooting) or Hellforged construction (S7 or lower attack gets -1 damage) Could also use a relic to get both. Could also use a fellbond with 5+ save against psychic phase mortal wounds. Nice against thousand sons and tzeentch daemons psychic power.
favours:
putrid carapace: +1 save against 1 damage weapons
pyrothrone: get the winds of warp psychic power for a 5+ feel no pain.
Mark of the dread knight: 6+ feel no pain
Relics:
2+ save
2+ save against mortal wounds from the deamonic surge
4++ against shooting (also 6++ against melee)
I got 2 CP to spend and also 30 points for a favour of the dark gods. Could always drop a flamer for extra points if needed.
Maybe this:
carnivore dreadblade with 2 fell bonds (relic) + putrid carapace
carnivore with vextrix warlord trait and pyrothrone with winds of warp.
The Storm of Darkness secondary seems to imply you can move while performing the action (as long as you remain in range of the objective marker). I thought you couldn't move while performing an action?
dreadblade wrote: The Storm of Darkness secondary seems to imply you can move while performing the action (as long as you remain in range of the objective marker). I thought you couldn't move while performing an action?
The secondary happens between movement phases, so you can't move while it's happening. I think it's just to assume the model doesn't die, or you heroic intervene/consolidate away from the objective.
Yeah the wording implies that you might be able to move because it says the action is completed provided the unit performing it is still within range of the same objective marker.
but the core rules say an action is failed if it makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back, manifests psychic power, shoots, charges or performs a Heroic Intervention.
So in theory the model can still move if the move is not one of the above. Not clear what that move could be.
Nithaniel wrote: Yeah the wording implies that you might be able to move because it says the action is completed provided the unit performing it is still within range of the same objective marker.
but the core rules say an action is failed if it makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back, manifests psychic power, shoots, charges or performs a Heroic Intervention.
So in theory the model can still move if the move is not one of the above. Not clear what that move could be.
10 of the 12 have a Favor upgrade, all stubbers instead of pods
Shooters sit in back with Helm of Dogs and Winds of the Warp psychic power.
Edit: I could also trade in the Moirax, a Brigand, and a Karnivore to get a Big Boy Taskmaster and give him an undivided favor so he can potentially get back up after dying. I'm not sure that's a great idea, though, considering I'm losing counts as 5x3 obsec bodies and gaining 10x1 to sit in the back. In addition to that, the 3 dogs have 42 T7 wounds while Big Boy has only 28 T8 wounds
An all dogs list is good but you have chosen taking favours over an extra 14 wound wardog. I run a similar list in Herpetrax with 13 wardogs and fewer favours. The extra wardog is more valuable than lots of abilities in my opinion. The list will essentially stat check the T7 14 wounds position against an army and try and trade up by sacrificing wardogs to pull enemies out of position to get shot or countercharged while trying to max storm of darkness and ruthless tyranny and a kill secondary.
You also can't give multiple favours in 1 unit. I also don't like winds of the warp only because on its own its not usually enough to manage a psychic secondary and the FnP is ok but not great because once you've cast it you are already presenting so many other targets that it can be safely ignored. Also gives up abhor the witch.
An all dogs list is good but you have chosen taking favours over an extra 14 wound wardog. I run a similar list in Herpetrax with 13 wardogs and fewer favours. The extra wardog is more valuable than lots of abilities in my opinion. The list will essentially stat check the T7 14 wounds position against an army and try and trade up by sacrificing wardogs to pull enemies out of position to get shot or countercharged while trying to max storm of darkness and ruthless tyranny and a kill secondary.
You also can't give multiple favours in 1 unit. I also don't like winds of the warp only because on its own its not usually enough to manage a psychic secondary and the FnP is ok but not great because once you've cast it you are already presenting so many other targets that it can be safely ignored. Also gives up abhor the witch.
Good points, and I had overlooked the "1 favour per unit" thing. I reduced it to 7 favours, slotting the gravity Moirax into a Dreadblade with the Rune of Nakabakka (ignore light cover and House Vextrix trait)
I think you're right about the FnP...in the test games I've played, it hasn't come up as much as I would've thought. A bubble on my Executioners is fun, but people seem to target closer units rather than what I think are the workhorses. I also think really the only armies that Witchhunting is good against are GK and TS, and they don't see much play atm
Did a little more reworking, and now I have a Karnivore in deep strike with +1 to charge and the Pterror relic
I do like the favours, they make the army more flavourful imo.
I know everyone is sorta looking forward to 10e, but I thought I'd share my results so far with the All War Dogs Party list. I've played 10 games so far and lost 1 (to Votann double Fortress), every other game I scored 90-100 pts. I've played against Guard, Necrons, Asuryani, Sisters, and Votann
House Herpetrax for an additional 2 wounds on each Dog. My points efficiency is at 12points per wound, which is ridiculously good when the entire army has a vehicle profile of T7 3+/5++
2x Karnivores split into 2 squads 1 of them is my WL, with Eager for the Kill trait (+1A in enemy deployment and +1 to charge), the Traitor's Mark heirloom (pick an extra Harbinger ability for that model + no Insane Bravery and no rerolling morale bubble), and Warpborne Stalker favour (Deep Strike!) 1 of them has Blood Shield favour (trade my melee invuln to ignore invulns for a Fight phase) and Havoc launcher
4x Executioners split into 2 squads, all with meltas 1 of them has the Helm of Dogs heirloom (reroll wounds of 1 bubble) and the Mirror of Fates favour (siphon CP from enemy on a 5+, when favoured change a hit/wound/save roll to a 6 once per round) 1 of them has Blessing of 1000 Poxes favour (auto-wound in melee on hits of 6, when favoured also get it for shooting)
2x Stalkers with Havocs 1 has Claw+Spear loadout, Veil of Medrengard heirloom (4++ in shooting and 6++ in melee) and Blessing of the Dark Master favour (no rerolls against model, when favoured gain Transhitman) 1 has Chain+Chain loadout
3x Brigands with Havocs 1 has Mark of the Dread Knight favour (6+++, when favoured upgrade to 5+++)
1x Moirax Dreadblade This guy has 2 gravity guns and the Aura of Corruption favour (-1S bubble, when favoured also -1T bubble) as well as Biomechanical Fusion fell bond (gets Daemonic Surge)
Feeling pretty good about my list, the deep striking Karnivore is a really great threat that is working well and the other ignores invulns Karnivore seems to make the opponent very nervous even if he doesn't always get to where he wants to go. 4 Executioners puts out a lot of firepower, and D3 is great at shredding stuff that has FnP.
Edit: Beat Votann, although not the optimized list (only 1 Fortress, 30 little miners, and 9 bikes)
So.... is it just me or does it look like imperial knights got the sweeter deal for the 10th ed index era? Relying on failed battleshock tests to get the most out of our rules seems extremely unreliable.
I have a non-aligned Houselhold (meaning that I used that almost exclusively as Imperial), but with the obscene focus that GW put on Wardogs and Armigers recently I'm moving to Chaos Knight, at least in the beginning of the edition. Chaos Knight have some Abhorrent class that doesn't rely on War Dogs (like the Abhorrent).
That said, even if it is a CAAC list (mainly due to the fact that I would like to field at least once my entire 5 Knight as the variant that I purchased in 7th) I believe think there could be some merit pushing 1990 pt of Abhorrent and Cerastus class, like:
- Cerastus Acheron
- Desecrator
- Abhorrent
- Rampager
- Megaera
In theory, almost any unit for the opponent will have to test for Battleshock, and that would help with objective control.
An alternative would be to fit 4 Knight within 1740 points (swapping some version for other more pricey, like a Styrix for a Megaera, and using Enhancements - that would increase the amounts of battleshock test needed) filling the remaining points with some Chaos Demons or Demon Engine of some kind to stay on the high toughness theme.
. But the deathshroud's invulns were still to much for him. Still from turn 2 onward both my wardogs ran circles around deepstriking blightlords in my half of the table 
Far more the our Rampager !
. I don't have Furies either but I have a bunch of pink horrors that I'll stick on objective.
1 of them is my 
1 of them has Blood Shield favour (trade my melee invuln to ignore invulns for a Fight phase) and Havoc launcher
1 of them has the Helm of Dogs heirloom (reroll wounds of 1 bubble) and the Mirror of Fates favour (siphon 
1 of them has Blessing of 1000 Poxes favour (auto-wound in melee on hits of 6, when favoured also get it for shooting)
1 has Chain+Chain loadout