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Kebabcito wrote:
Chaos knight melee capabilities are nerfed since full tilt disappeared and brigands are much better. Not counting the Vextrix synergy.

Axioma: Don't expect much damage from Stalkers, and Karnivores has 0 shooting resources and they will deal 0 damage half of the matches. Vextrix brigands spam will always have a better winrate.

Perhaps. But one unit being able to do a turn 1 charge is not going to be reliable to win the game anyway. I personally prefer the entire army moving up on turn 1 and then shooting, and then turn 2, shooting plus charging the entire army into battle.

Chaos knights can both shoot and fight in melee, and its a waste to rely solely on only one or the other.

A quick question; the Worthy Offerings Iconoclast Household Fell Bond works at range as well as in melee, yes? So my many Executioners would benefit from a 2+ BS & WS when targeting the appropriate target?

bmsattler wrote:
I'm looking forward to testing a Rampager + 5 Stalkers + 6 Karnivores in an Iconoclast household.

Current 2nd place at Bugeater is CK list almost exactly what you are describing, in Herpatrax.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kebabcito wrote:
Chaos knight melee capabilities are nerfed since full tilt disappeared and brigands are much better. Not counting the Vextrix synergy.

Axioma: Don't expect much damage from Stalkers, and Karnivores has 0 shooting resources and they will deal 0 damage half of the matches. Vextrix brigands spam will always have a better winrate.

This isn't really bearing out in reality right now. There have been several podium finishes for CK so far, and nearly all of them have been Iconoclast with some Big Knights.

 Sasori wrote:

bmsattler wrote:
I'm looking forward to testing a Rampager + 5 Stalkers + 6 Karnivores in an Iconoclast household.

Current 2nd place at Bugeater is CK list almost exactly what you are describing, in Herpatrax.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kebabcito wrote:
Chaos knight melee capabilities are nerfed since full tilt disappeared and brigands are much better. Not counting the Vextrix synergy.

Axioma: Don't expect much damage from Stalkers, and Karnivores has 0 shooting resources and they will deal 0 damage half of the matches. Vextrix brigands spam will always have a better winrate.

This isn't really bearing out in reality right now. There have been several podium finishes for CK so far, and nearly all of them have been Iconoclast with some Big Knights.

I second this... if you could win a tournament playing an all out shooty CK list, then you probably could have won that same tournament playing a shooty Tau list with much less effort. Its such a pity to waste the awesome 5 model obsec ability of our war dogs, our counts as 10 model big knights, our T7T8 durability, and our good fighting abilities to only focus on shooting our opponent off the board.

In same vein. Its costs so little to add some shooting ability to our units. A desecrator is also WS2, and can be almost as much a combat monster as a Rampager, and yet it has an awesome laser cannon that can melt tank which the rampager doesn't. They both cost the same. Is that 2 inch movement and 1 additional attack really so important? (There are other ways to +1 attack).

Even for a war dog. A double gun war dog shoots well yes, but then it hits like a noodle in close combat. A war dog with a shooty gun and a melee weapon like a chain talon shoots well and fights well too. You dare to aggressively charge it into an enemy unit onto an objective. And even if you have such a war dog in your backline. If someone deep strikes in and then fails their charge, you can take the fight to them by shooting them and then charging them in your turn instead of waiting for the inevitable charge.

Yes a double gun war dog shoots better than a single gun war dog. But I wouldn't trade it for the versatility of of a single gun war dog with chain talon. I just don't think the additional shooting is going to be so crutch vs the need for melee combat in every game.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Even for a war dog. A double gun war dog shoots well yes, but then it hits like a noodle in close combat. A war dog with a shooty gun and a melee weapon like a chain talon shoots well and fights well too. You dare to aggressively charge it into an enemy unit onto an objective. And even if you have such a war dog in your backline. If someone deep strikes in and then fails their charge, you can take the fight to them by shooting them and then charging them in your turn instead of waiting for the inevitable charge.

Yes a double gun war dog shoots better than a single gun war dog. But I wouldn't trade it for the versatility of of a single gun war dog with chain talon. I just don't think the additional shooting is going to be so crutch vs the need for melee combat in every game.

I think that you are overlooking the fact that Huntsmen and Executioners can still use their guns in combat. None of the weapons on them, the Autocannons, the meltaguns, the heavy stubbers, or that demonbreath spear, are blast.

Sure they lose some accuracy, but they don't lose the punch of their guns. And if they are Iconoclast, they aren't just going to be flailing around in the first round of combat either.

Tournament again this weekend.

Vextrix brigands x9 are so strong they are a smash into the meta and just a faceroll. Loyal armigers x13 were powerful in early 9th but this is just insanely powerful.

9 Brigands is less than 1500pts, whats the rest of the list?

1 stalker and abhominant

I’ve got a few more games under my belt and from my perspective, melee Wardogs mixed up with shooty big boys might be the best way to play. I’ve played on terrain dense boards and moving the big knights around is straight up difficult, especially if Im trying to get them into melee. Sure, their fire lanes suck too, but at least in deter people from putting anything in those fire lanes at all. The melee dogs are able to take just about any objective they can reach, and since they are smaller, can actually get a lot of places and not get shot on the way. Often I find myself killing off units on objectives down to 3 or 4 models and controlling it because of the obsec+5 rule.

As far as houses, I’m in love with Herpetrax being iconoclast, mainly because of Iconoclast. I like the WL trait on a big knight so far.

For fluff reasons (my Knights have got caught up in the cult of personality of the Black Legion), I am sticking to an Iconocast house except House Herpetrax because of their, 'Bow to No One'. Originally, I went Lucaris, as they best fit fluffwise, but there really isn't anything there ruleswise I like. At first, I thought the re-roll 1 die worked for ranged and melee, but taking another look; I think it is just melee. And I want my Knight Army to be like my marine ones: fairly balanced at both ranged and melee. Speaking further about House Lucaris, I don't like First Strike as a personal preference, the strat is okay and the relic appears bad. So I think I am just going to go with the generic Prideful Wrath instead. Since that subfraction trait should have a much wider base of usefulness.

For my army list, I plan on a Desecrator as the Warlord with The Diamonas and the Dread Knight Favor (I always prefer Chaos Undivided). Not the best, but I like the Desecrator model, and it makes the most sense in my army to be the warlord being the closest to a Chaos Lord. I don't have a Warlord trait I especially like, but Aura of Terror or Harbinger of Scrapcode being my favorites at the moment.

The Abominant with Dark Master Favor, Winds of the Warp and either Vortex Terrors or Coruscating Hate. I do like this Knight being the tip of the spear for my army to tank what damage it can for the rest while being somewhat of a threat if ignored. I'm not sure, if I have put enough into defense to allow that, or if it is possible to deny it being destroyed Turn 1 by a tenacious opponent. But it did win me my 1st Chaos Knight game by reaching my opponent's Death Guard deathstar and dealing 20+ MW with Spiteful Demise.

Finally, I plan on 6-7 (I only have 6 right now) War Dogs leaning heavily on the Stalker datasheet (I like how balanced ranged and melee is on it), but also a couple of Brigands and Karnivores. Which leaves me enough points for a few Favors for my War Dogs. But I haven't nailed down exactly what pre-game stuff I want to give them yet.

I am very likely to take another Relic, as I think there are a bunch of worthwhile ones. I like Helm of Dogs. I also think Panoply of the Cursed Knight could be useful in keeping my Abominant alive just a little longer, as some armies can push through a lot of AP-2 or less shots, and I'd like to have options on where and when to use Diabolic Bulwark. But I don't know yet.

I too played Lucaris with the previous incarnation, and I switched to the Worthy Offerings Fell Bond.
I can also say that I am extremely wary of taking a fight first ability as I have destroyed opponents who used melee builds against me.

I feel that Chaos knights might get off relatively "lightly" from the new chapter approved changes. We don't usually start with just 6CP even currently. So, I think we are ok with starting with just 6CP instead of 12 CP. Even if you add in the 2CP we need to pay for our warlord trait and relic, I think we will still be ok.

Most of our lists aren't that CP starved and still perfectly possible to field even with the new CP changes.

And chaos knights are more about their existing rules. We aren't really about blowing 4 to 6 cp on some big strategem combo. So, we won't be affected so much by the CP changes. Just my 2 cents. What do you all think?

Just to add to this. If we really wanted to cut some fat. There aren't that many warlord traits or relics which are "absolutely essential or we would be a bad army". Most of them are "great to have but not essential". So, its not like we absolutely have to spend 4 or 6 CP on relics and warlord traits just to get a competitive army.

Concerning the CA CP changes, I am inclined to agree they shouldn't affect Chaos Knights as much.

Honestly, I can take or leave Warlord traits available for Iconoclast knights. There are some okay ones, but nothing that makes me think I absolutely must have it to spend CP every list. Relics on the other hand, I do like a few of them. However, I think I can limit myself to one or two relics I really like and work from there.

Much of the power I think for Chaos Knights are in favors. Which skip the whole CP issue entirely. So while, I don't expect I'll be subject to the latest CA (lots of players are stating they are going pure Tempest or 30k), I'm not broken up by what it does to my Chaos Knights army list.

Outsider guessing into tournament play with the changes to Chaos Knights has me to think that they are going to continue to be what they are: middling, gatekeepers with a high amount of swing to occasionally do well.

Chaos Knights FAQ is out. Biggest change is that the Storm of Shadows secondary can only be started in the knights morale phase instead of 'the morale phase.'

https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

My conversation on Sunday with a CK player was "you do know that is going to get FAQ'd right?"

And I think this does mean it caps out at 12 VP as you can't complete it the 5th time now as you don't have a 6th turn.

Yep, I would agree with the 12 VP cap. Less useful now, though I still like the synergy with the Dread abilities. Now that we have access to more knight-specific secondaries access to the Shadow Ops section is a little less useful, but still relevant.

I ran my list as Infernal House Vextrix yesterday evening (I normally run it as Iconoclast House Herpetrax). I won by a good margin, and the shooting buffs were great, but I'm not convinced about taking 5MW on every knight over an entire game

I think if my opponent had been wounding me more that could have been problematic...

You get to choose whether to use the Infernal boost or not. Just don't do it unless it will make a meaningful contribution to the game.

bmsattler wrote:
You get to choose whether to use the Infernal boost or not. Just don't do it unless it will make a meaningful contribution to the game.

Okay, I should have read the rules more thoroughly

Just got my first game hands on with Knights vs GSC. I tried a lot of different stuff as it is still learning time. Used House Korvus because it is what I will play in upcoming Crusade games. Korvus itself feels ok, the additional trait from Dread table is an okay boon but damn, Korvus really suffers from the awfull Ambotion. While +1 to wound or transhuman would be nice in general, it really does not justify the damage taken. Due to what models were available I played 3 Despoilers and 1 Abominant. Abominant itself is solid, especially the -1 Bravery was handy. I played a Dreadblade with two cannons and the Dark Forge trait. It was a quite usefull pick and almost justified the points, if there was not a major trap I stepped in: Shadow Stalker. Loosing a turn of shooting led to the typical snowball effect we know from 40k. Meanwhile 12 shots with S6 D2 that ignore LookOutSir at 40“ is nothing to laugh at, especially against armies without AoC. While I really do not get the point of the double-loadout-tax, especially on Blade+Claw Despoilers who will be played as Dreadblades anyway, I habe to say that playing 1-2 Knights with 2 different big guns seems valid when accompanied by some Wardogs. While playing for the Dread Abilities I used the WL Trait that forces the opponent to roll an additional dice and I have to say I love it. It is just a nasty upscale for both, morale and dread rolls that suddenly turns both in to a valid mechanic.

Had my second game with my Chaos Knights with their 9th edition book yesterday.

desocrator warlord with Aura of Terror and 2+ armour save

tyrant with valcano cannon

x1 brigand

x3 stalkers

x2 karnivores

have two executioners I wasn't using as well. Might try and get 2nd hand bits to turn them into brigands.

I ran them with Infernal, and the custom trait of S7 or less -1 damage.

played against Eldar, and the trait didn't really help too much, but I did well in the game. Got lucky and kill off his wave serpent and fire dragons the top of t1, which was huge.

I really liked the infernal +3 to move on the karnivores, made them very fast.

Not sure of the trait I used was the best option, but did okay for me. Still not sure what the best house option is for my collection.

The tyrant with volcano cannon didn't really accomplish much. I can't afford to replace it with another abominant or more wardogs ATM, so have to try and make it work. Not sure if converting it to have the flamer and hook and play him aggressive would be a better bet.

What do you folks think?

The Tyrant isn't well supported in the new Codexes. I think you would be better off swapping him out like you mentioned.

Infernal has some good house options. Vextrix is the popular choice, their rerolls give your shooting phase a great deal more consistency.

The standard game plan for Chaos Knights is to load one up with Aura of Terror and as many defensive buffs as you can, and cram it into the middle of their lines to try to take advantage of Gheiststorm to force them to focus on it instead of your more vulnerable War Dogs. The Abominant is a favorite for that role due to its easy access to the 5+++ FNP. It does suffer from having lower offensive output, so some people use a Rampager or Desecrator for the role instead.

Having some Havoc Launchers is starting to sound like a good idea to help against units like Sister's Repentia or Ork Grots hiding on objectives. Chaos Knights don't have the best secondary objectives, so having plans to disrupt your opponents secondaries can help balance that out in your favor.

I've found ruthless tyranny and their shadow operation secondary to be very good for them.

Replacing the tyrant isn't an option for me atm, due to finances. Do you think the flamer and hook option is better for it, or the lance and plasma? If finances allowed, I'd get an abominant, but I can't.

Good point about out of Los shooting.

I think that the harpoon is worse than the volcano lance, and the flamer is roughly the same as the plasma. The extra range that the volcano lance version gets is a big deal, as this guy isn't very good in melee. I like the idea of giving the Tyrant Warp-Born Stalker to let it deep-strike into a lane of fire on your best target. I'd also go for Dreadblade and the re-roll 1's to hit at closer range to go along with it.

The 1D3 shots for the Volcano Lance really sucks, and its hard for me to argue that the Volcano Lance is better than a standard Thermal Cannon with that few shots. Overall I think that the Chaos Knights play best as a pressure army, pushing the enemy hard and making it hard for them to push back due to the Aura of Dread abilities making charges unreliable against us. Look at what your playstyle is, and develop an army that plays to it.

Got my first game with Chaos Knights coming up tomorrow, not sure what my opponent will be running as he has many options and is still undecided. Heres my list (sorry if the formatting is a problem, I hate Battlescribe, don't use it):

CHAOS KNIGHTS
SUPER-HEAVY DETACHMENT (Custom House: Prideful Wrath, Iconoclast Household: Conquerors Without Mercy), -3CP

LORD OF WAR - War Dog Karnivore x2
-War Dog Karnivore (Character, Warlord) w/ Diabolus Heavy Stubber, Warlord Trait: Knight Diabolus, Arch-Tyrant: Eager for the Kill, Relic: Helm of Dogs, Khorne: Throne Mechanicum of Skulls (155pts, -3CP)
-War Dog Karnivore w/ Diabolus Heavy Stubber (140pts)

LORD OF WAR - War Dog Brigand x2
-War Dog Brigand w/ Havoc multi-launcer (160pts)
-War Dog Brigand w/ Havoc multi-launcer (160pts)

LORD OF WAR - War Dog Stalker x2
-War Dog Stalker w/ Daemonbreath Spear, Diabolus Heavy Stubber, Slaughterclaw (145pts)
-War Dog Stalker w/ Daemonbreath Spear, Diabolus Heavy Stubber, Slaughterclaw (145pts)

LORD OF WAR - War Dog Stalker x2
-War Dog Stalker w/ Avenger Chaincannon, Diabolus Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chaintalon, Nurgle: Blessing of a Thousand Poxes (160pts)
-War Dog Stalker w/ Avenger Chaincannon, Diabolus Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chaintalon (145pts)

LORD OF WAR - War Dog Huntsman x2
-War Dog Huntsman w/ Daemonbreath meltagun (150pts)
-War Dog Huntsman w/ Daemonbreath meltagun (150pts)

SUPER-HEAVY DETACHMENT (Dreadblade), 0CP
LORD OF WAR - War Dog Executioner x3 (Dreadblade Fell Bond: Precision Cruelty)
-War Dog Executioner w/ Diabolus Heavy Stubber, Tzeentch: Mirror of Fates (170pts)
-War Dog Executioner w/ Diabolus Heavy Stubber (155pts)
-War Dog Executioner w/ Diabolus Heavy Stubber (155pts)

Total: 1990pts, 0CP

FYI - in case anyone else did not know this a Wardog can't take Knight Diabolus. :(

Went back and re-read it. You're right :( Damn.

S'all good, opponent killed my Warlord on turn 1 anyway so it never became relevant lol.

Had my second game yesterday, this time against Blood Angels (first time around was vs what is basically TJ Lannigans Thousand Sons list from ACO), used updated list without Knight Diabolus (so starting the game with 1 CP as I made Eager for the Kill my WLT and didn't take Arch-Tyrant).

Opponent conceded at the bottom of turn 2 despite a rocky start on my end. Once again, Warlord got murdered turn 1, this time in melee by a unit of death company rather than MW psychic power spam. Warlord exploded and dealt 1 MW to the death company, but hit the 5 nearby wardogs for 11 MWs as I had yet to move and was still clustered up in my deployment zone. Even still, I managed to grab some objectives on my turn and destroyed a couple of his units in return, and then his turn 2 was ineffectual due to him repeatedly rolling double 1s on charge rolls (as in, he would roll double 1s, re-roll and still come up with double 1s). Out of 4 declared charges he only pulled one off (and it was the throwaway charge for the last man standing in a unit of Sang Guard, who I then proceeded to plaster into the ground after he knocked a couple wounds off one of my dogs), and thus I managed to catch most of his army standing in the open which resulted in the murder of 2 more units of Sang Guard, an Ancient and Dante himself.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Had my second game yesterday, this time against Blood Angels (first time around was vs what is basically TJ Lannigans Thousand Sons list from ACO), used updated list without Knight Diabolus (so starting the game with 1 CP as I made Eager for the Kill my WLT and didn't take Arch-Tyrant).

Opponent conceded at the bottom of turn 2 despite a rocky start on my end. Once again, Warlord got murdered turn 1, this time in melee by a unit of death company rather than MW psychic power spam. Warlord exploded and dealt 1 MW to the death company, but hit the 5 nearby wardogs for 11 MWs as I had yet to move and was still clustered up in my deployment zone. Even still, I managed to grab some objectives on my turn and destroyed a couple of his units in return, and then his turn 2 was ineffectual due to him repeatedly rolling double 1s on charge rolls (as in, he would roll double 1s, re-roll and still come up with double 1s). Out of 4 declared charges he only pulled one off (and it was the throwaway charge for the last man standing in a unit of Sang Guard, who I then proceeded to plaster into the ground after he knocked a couple wounds off one of my dogs), and thus I managed to catch most of his army standing in the open which resulted in the murder of 2 more units of Sang Guard, an Ancient and Dante himself.

This is really interesting, thanks for your updates. I have been playing desecrator and 10 wardogs. Even in that setup I find a lot of the time my wardogs struggle for space to move and can end up moveblocking themselves particularly if they get charged. What sort of terrain do you play on?

How do you use your karnivores. with only 2 there isn't much redundancy. Are they your bait to get shot early?

Thats a lot of melta you are running as well. When I have tried that number of daemonbreath I tend to find some or most lack line of sight to get good targets. I play on dense boards but I imagine player placed gives you a lot of flex for that sort of build.

 Nithaniel wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Had my second game yesterday, this time against Blood Angels (first time around was vs what is basically TJ Lannigans Thousand Sons list from ACO), used updated list without Knight Diabolus (so starting the game with 1 CP as I made Eager for the Kill my WLT and didn't take Arch-Tyrant).

Opponent conceded at the bottom of turn 2 despite a rocky start on my end. Once again, Warlord got murdered turn 1, this time in melee by a unit of death company rather than MW psychic power spam. Warlord exploded and dealt 1 MW to the death company, but hit the 5 nearby wardogs for 11 MWs as I had yet to move and was still clustered up in my deployment zone. Even still, I managed to grab some objectives on my turn and destroyed a couple of his units in return, and then his turn 2 was ineffectual due to him repeatedly rolling double 1s on charge rolls (as in, he would roll double 1s, re-roll and still come up with double 1s). Out of 4 declared charges he only pulled one off (and it was the throwaway charge for the last man standing in a unit of Sang Guard, who I then proceeded to plaster into the ground after he knocked a couple wounds off one of my dogs), and thus I managed to catch most of his army standing in the open which resulted in the murder of 2 more units of Sang Guard, an Ancient and Dante himself.

This is really interesting, thanks for your updates. I have been playing desecrator and 10 wardogs. Even in that setup I find a lot of the time my wardogs struggle for space to move and can end up moveblocking themselves particularly if they get charged. What sort of terrain do you play on?

How do you use your karnivores. with only 2 there isn't much redundancy. Are they your bait to get shot early?

Thats a lot of melta you are running as well. When I have tried that number of daemonbreath I tend to find some or most lack line of sight to get good targets. I play on dense boards but I imagine player placed gives you a lot of flex for that sort of build.

Terrain at the shop basically follows the old ITC standard (i.e. angles, angles everywhere), its fairly dense with lots of LOS blockers and medium-length fire lanes.

The Karnivores haven't really lasted long enough in general for me to get good use out of them, they are meant to get up close and personal clear objectives and tarpits off as a sort of "spot removal" for a big variety of targets, but so far both opponents I have played prioritized killing them first for whatever reason (even though there were other wardogs that were equally as accessible). I suspect part of it is that both lists I played against had no vehicles whatsoever, so the daemonbreath spears don't pose as much of a threat (and marines aren't bothered by avenger chaincannons). I usually deploy my executioners to the rear, so getting to them is a challenge for my opponent and thus they don't usually have much to worry about it.

That being said, even though 6 daemonbreath spears does feel like too much, they have been probably the most reliable ranged weapon in the list (after Havoc launchers and heavy stubbers, lol - its become a meme that my opponents roll all their 1s trying to save against them) - but that data is thus far skewed by the fact that I've only played against MEQ lists. The avenger chaincannons generally just don't seem to cut it (especially not with Armor of Contempt being a factor) and the autocannons do good work but haven't bit quite as consistent. Aside from that, I've been leaning heavily on the melee capabilities of the war dogs to finish up whatever the guns don't manage to kill. I'll be updating the list after I get a few more games in against more varied opponents, so we'll see what happens.