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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I hear what you're saying. Demonic surge takes serious thought to get it right. However, you're being a little pessimistic. If you've got 9 models in your army, 7 of them could use obscuring terrain to be scarce. You can also take a relic or an Infernal bond that can reduce the mortals you inflict on yourself.

I still think that Infernal is weaker than Iconoclast, just not that its a slam dunk done deal. I suspect some of it will be personal preference.
   
Made in ca
Nihilistic Necron Lord




The best State-Texas

bmsattler wrote:
I hear what you're saying. Demonic surge takes serious thought to get it right. However, you're being a little pessimistic. If you've got 9 models in your army, 7 of them could use obscuring terrain to be scarce. You can also take a relic or an Infernal bond that can reduce the mortals you inflict on yourself.

I still think that Infernal is weaker than Iconoclast, just not that its a slam dunk done deal. I suspect some of it will be personal preference.


Agree with this, the Infernal table is not near as easy to use as the Iconoclast buff. That being said, with the exception of Herpatrax, I think that the Infernal Houses have stronger packages than the Iconoclast houses, in part to make up for that.

Herpatrax is my go-to right now, but I'm going to be doing a lot of testing with Korvax too.

Edit: Here is my current Herpatrax list

Spoiler:


++ Super-Heavy Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Chaos Knights) [105 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

+ Lord of War +

Knight Abominant [24 PL, -1CP, 460pts]: 4. Knight Diabolus, 6. Aura of Terror, Arch-Tyrant, Character (Traitoris Lance), Crown of Jedathra, House Herpetrax, The Storm Malevolent, Undivided - Blessing of the Dark Master, Warlord, Winds of the Warp

Knight Desecrator [22 PL, -2CP, 440pts]: Bow to None (Herpetrax), Character (Tyrannical Court), Corrupted Heirlooms, House Herpetrax, The Diamonas, Undivided - Mark of the Dread Knight, Warpstrike claw

War Dog Executioner Squadron [17 PL, 330pts]: House Herpetrax
. War Dog Executioner: Diabolus heavy stubber, Tzeentch - Mirror of Fates
. War Dog Executioner: Daemonbreath meltagun

War Dog Karnivore Squadron [18 PL, -1CP, 320pts]: House Herpetrax
. War Dog Karnivore: Corrupted Heirlooms, Havoc multi-launcher, Helm of Dogs, Khorne - Blood Shield
. War Dog Karnivore: Havoc multi-launcher

War Dog Stalker Squadron [24 PL, 450pts]: House Herpetrax
. War Dog Stalker: Avenger chaincannon, Havoc multi-launcher, Slaughterclaw
. War Dog Stalker: Avenger chaincannon, Havoc multi-launcher, Slaughterclaw
. War Dog Stalker: Avenger chaincannon, Havoc multi-launcher, Slaughterclaw

++ Total: [105 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++

Note that Abomb has the Veil, it's just not showig up in Battlescribe.

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 04:17:43


4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
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Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





I think you need to see infernal as a buff for big knights and something you almost never use on wargdogs. On big knights that get access to 2+ fnp relic against daemon surge, or a 5++ from the psychic power/Dread Knight they still have value. +3" movement is great on big knights (especially when they can ignore terrain). Also clutch +3" movement on small knights can win you games if it gets you where you need to be.

As mentioned the infernal household packages are very good. Korvax is really strong. The other bond that I think is well worth it is Hellforged construction as the damage reduction can offset the mortal wounds.


 
   
Made in es
Krazy Grot Kutta Driva




Daemonic surge is only useful in a full shooting build for a speedmob turn1 and tabble the opponent ASAP

Orks 5000p 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mushkilla wrote:
I think you need to see infernal as a buff for big knights and something you almost never use on wargdogs. On big knights that get access to 2+ fnp relic against daemon surge, or a 5++ from the psychic power/Dread Knight they still have value. +3" movement is great on big knights (especially when they can ignore terrain). Also clutch +3" movement on small knights can win you games if it gets you where you need to be.

As mentioned the infernal household packages are very good. Korvax is really strong. The other bond that I think is well worth it is Hellforged construction as the damage reduction can offset the mortal wounds.


I feel that melee is something almost unavoidable in a game. And given our knights hit hard anyway, its kind of wasted potential if we only shoot and don't utilise our awesome melee abilities. Thus, Iconoclast will always be useful because we will almost always have some melee fights in a game.

Demonic surge, if we are using so so rarely, and limiting to only our big knights seems to really make them too situational to be good. And if its about household bonds. Like I said, its not like Iconoclast doesn't have good household bonds either.

About all shooting or all melee. Both I feel are too extreme. The all melee build can get move blocked and shot before getting into melee, and as for the all shooting army... Well, I honestly don't think our shooting is so fantastic we can win by just solely shooting our opponent off the board like a Tau army.
   
Made in us
Bounding Assault Marine





So is there any sort of consensus on what the best knight/wardog unit to take for agents of chaos is? I... really don't have the time or money to start a full knight army, but adding a knight or some wardogs to my night lords sounds feasible.

So far in other places I've seen war dog stalkers and executioners mentioned, and the abhorrent seems tailor made for being an agent of chaos. But I also kinda want to kitbash a warmaster titan into a knight tyrant, as silly as that might be...

I've also seen one person make a list that totally ignored agents of chaos and just mashed together a full super heavy detachment of the new chaos knights into their iron warriors, though I don't know how that'll fare post-new-CSM-codex.
   
Made in ca
Nihilistic Necron Lord




The best State-Texas

 cole1114 wrote:
So is there any sort of consensus on what the best knight/wardog unit to take for agents of chaos is? I... really don't have the time or money to start a full knight army, but adding a knight or some wardogs to my night lords sounds feasible.

So far in other places I've seen war dog stalkers and executioners mentioned, and the abhorrent seems tailor made for being an agent of chaos. But I also kinda want to kitbash a warmaster titan into a knight tyrant, as silly as that might be...

I've also seen one person make a list that totally ignored agents of chaos and just mashed together a full super heavy detachment of the new chaos knights into their iron warriors, though I don't know how that'll fare post-new-CSM-codex.


It really depends on the army. Without the CSM codex being out, really can't make any calls to what would be good there.

For Tsons, I'm going to experiment with 3 Executioners or 3 Karnivores. They both fill a nice role in the army that is hard to come by in the baseline dex.


As far as Infernal goes, yes, I will agree their buffs are more situational. but 17' Karnivores and adding 1 to wound the gatling cannons are both great uses of it. The Transhuman comes up much less. You are simply trading a more situational buff over the Iconoclast buff, but getting what I consider to be stronger house packages (Exception for Herpatrax) with that.


4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
:Necron: Necron Discord: https://discord.com/invite/AGtpeD4  
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 cole1114 wrote:
So is there any sort of consensus on what the best knight/wardog unit to take for agents of chaos is? I... really don't have the time or money to start a full knight army, but adding a knight or some wardogs to my night lords sounds feasible.

So far in other places I've seen war dog stalkers and executioners mentioned, and the abhorrent seems tailor made for being an agent of chaos. But I also kinda want to kitbash a warmaster titan into a knight tyrant, as silly as that might be...

I've also seen one person make a list that totally ignored agents of chaos and just mashed together a full super heavy detachment of the new chaos knights into their iron warriors, though I don't know how that'll fare post-new-CSM-codex.


Yeah, just going with a super heavy detachment with your warlord in it seems to bee the best way to go when souping with CSM. You lose Harbringers of dread and that's about it I think. Retain everything else. And CSM has no super legion abilities to speak of (yet), so it doesn't affect CSM either. And CSM units are really cheap.

Like souping in one patrol of CSM with

Terminator sorceror, 2 units of CSM, 2 units of raptors just cost around 400 points.

And this gives you 2 units of cheap obsec with armor of contempt to do actions, hold your back objective. And 2 units of raptors that can deep strike in to do stuff like Retrieve Data. And a terminator sorceror with Armor of contempt is pretty tanky and grants you psychic powers.

You still have 1600 points left to kit out your super heavy detachment with tons of stuff.

It actually adds a ton of utility to your army in terms of doing secondaries and tactical options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cole1114 wrote:
So is there any sort of consensus on what the best knight/wardog unit to take for agents of chaos is? I... really don't have the time or money to start a full knight army, but adding a knight or some wardogs to my night lords sounds feasible.

So far in other places I've seen war dog stalkers and executioners mentioned, and the abhorrent seems tailor made for being an agent of chaos. But I also kinda want to kitbash a warmaster titan into a knight tyrant, as silly as that might be...

I've also seen one person make a list that totally ignored agents of chaos and just mashed together a full super heavy detachment of the new chaos knights into their iron warriors, though I don't know how that'll fare post-new-CSM-codex.


It all depends on what role your want your wardogs to fufill. Because we have give versions of wardogs. So, I am sure you can find the right build for the army you have in mind.

If you want your wardogs to fufill a shooting role, then the wardogs with all shooting loadouts are the best. And it also depends on whether you want them to shoot all around well, or whether you want a more anti tank specific shooting type of wardog.

If you want your wardogs to charge up the field and melee, then Karnavoire is the best. But if you want some shooting as well, then all versions of wardogs with one melee weapon like a chain talon is good.

If you want them to fufill an anti infantry role, then the version that has that 12 shot avenger chain cannon is the best.

I personally think a more generalist build is better because more flexible. So, one shooty weapon and one melee weapon loadout.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/21 03:18:13


 
   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





Eldenfirefly wrote:

I feel that melee is something almost unavoidable in a game. And given our knights hit hard anyway, its kind of wasted potential if we only shoot and don't utilise our awesome melee abilities. Thus, Iconoclast will always be useful because we will almost always have some melee fights in a game.

Demonic surge, if we are using so so rarely, and limiting to only our big knights seems to really make them too situational to be good. And if its about household bonds. Like I said, its not like Iconoclast doesn't have good household bonds either.


Don't get me wrong I think in isolation iconoclast ambition is better than the infernal ambition overall.

The question is it worth having a worse ambition for a more useful bond/stratagem. Korvax, in particular is very hard to price in terms of value. Their bond opens up a bunch of interesting dread combos. Their warlord trait lets you have 12" taskmaster aura and do interesting things like 18" Gheist Storm on your toughest knight.

But for me it's the fact that your opponent will always have to assume any knight can move +3" through terrain (and models) because of daemon surge and knights of shade. Terrain is one of our biggest weaknesses so the price/power of being able to circumvent that is hard to quantify.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/21 08:55:37



 
   
Made in nl
Been Around the Block




Just wondering, as a BL player, do Chaos Knights give something I can't have? Like, I'm expanding my army to have some strategic punch, but I don't know if the Knights can give me that
   
Made in es
Krazy Grot Kutta Driva




caladancid wrote:
Kebabcito wrote:
My list for a tournament next week, I'm going for top3


++ Super-Heavy Detachment -3CP (Chaos - Chaos Knights) [103 PL, 5CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

Gametype: Matched

+ Lord of War +

Knight Abominant [24 PL, -1CP, 460pts]: 4. Knight Diabolus, Arch-Tyrant, Character (Traitoris Lance), Favour of the Dark Mechanicum (Vextrix), Heretek Power Core, House Vextrix, Undivided - Blessing of the Dark Master, Vortex Terrors, Warlord, Winds of the Warp

Knight Desecrator [22 PL, -2CP, 435pts]: 1. Eager for the Kill, Character (Tyrannical Court), Corrupted Heirlooms, House Vextrix, Reaper chainsword, The Diamonas, Tzeentch - Cursed Rune of Fate

War Dog Brigand Squadron [24 PL, 465pts]: House Vextrix
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber

War Dog Brigand Squadron [24 PL, -1CP, 465pts]: House Vextrix
. War Dog Brigand: Corrupted Heirlooms, Diabolus heavy stubber, Helm of Dogs
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber

War Dog Executioner Squadron [9 PL, 175pts]: House Vextrix
. War Dog Executioner: Diabolus heavy stubber, Tzeentch - Mirror of Fates

++ Total: [103 PL, 5CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

I'm going Vextrix. Full rerolls in the melta/laser of the brigands, the diamonas, my abominant will move +2" and will heal d3 every round. The relic will make his damage D4 flat and his tail D3.

My list will have:

- An abominant in the front line, trying to survive as much as he can with all my CPs, trying to spread the harbringer and charging everything I think is a threat for my shooter platforms.

- The desecrator will give 1s reroll for the gatling spam of the wardogs, he is good in melee but will have diamonas for Vextrix synergy and he will be able to unlock favours of gods turn1 usually (which rampager cannot) he has rune of fate for trying to fish the 4++ early and still do some damage with the 6+ saves. Still thinking about going 5+++ instead of this shi**.

- 6 Brigands with melta/laser and gatling. They will stay at 30" till round 3, trying to kill everything they can without engaging to much in troubles. I'll try to avoid all the charges as posible.

- Helverin will stay behind in maps where there's a deployment zone objective. Actually there aren't any missions with 2 objectives so I'm going only with one. His weapons are 60" so I don't think he will have as much troubles as a brigand trying to be useful in the match.

My missions will be storm of darkness, strangehold and third depends. I'm not going the ruthless tyrant strangehold free points because I lack a third good secondary. I think it is a huge trap.



Very important question- how do you have the new rules on Battlescribe? Mine is not showing any of those.


Went to the tournament. Won first match 100-18, second one 90-60, and I lost the finals 56-80.

Everything worked as I expected:

- Abhominant is extremely tanky. From now on, he will have the ObSec trait as it is hella good for defending mid by himself.
- Brigands with Desecrator/helmet rerolls + vextrix are very powerful. They will crush infantry and vehicles. They are extremlely powerful.
- Desecrator must be played very aggresively. If you wait behind for the favor unlocking, he will not have enough presence in the match because he only moves 10". So he will finally be useless.

I think we will have 2 lists:

- Iconoclast abby, desecrator, 6 stalkers and 1 helverin behind.
- Vextrix abby, desecrator with diamonas and 6/7 brigands.

Something I learned. Dogs are invictors. DO NOT TRY TO TRADE IN MELEE. If you charge something, make sure it will die, we cannot trade, we just die and you are tabbed turn2.

Orks 5000p 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

Codex pre-order next Saturday

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dreadblade/
[1,100] Ultramarines
[1,900] Chaos Knights
[1,000] Thousand Sons
[1,000] Grey Knights 
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




Short question: I have 3 Despoilers and a new Abhorrent Kit around. As despoilers seem to be the worst pick currently I wonder how cool people are when using the Despoiler Chassis for a Rampager/Desecrator? Does anyone look at the legs of the kit at all or is it just the weapons that count?
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





So I wonder what's the "limit" we can bring in big knights and have enough relics, dark god blessings to buff them all sufficiently that our opponent really doesn't have any good targets to attack because they are all very tanky.

An abominant seems to be a sure slot because it can cast that 5+ FNP psychic on itself. Because this buff is so strong, we can leave the strongest dark god blessing to another knight. So, maybe take the Putrid carapce favour on it and bring the Cursed knight of panopoly relic. So now it has a 2+ save and it reduces any AP of a dmg 1 attack against it by a further AP. And once it gets favoured, its now T9. A T9 Abominant with 5+ FNP and a 2+ armor save is tough!

So now we can put another dark favour Mark of the Dread Knight on a Desecrator. Along with Veil of Medrengard. So it now has 4++ to shooting, 6++ to melee, a 6+ FNP and once it gets favoured, it now also has a 5+ FNP.

The last and most powerful favour can now be put on the last knight. So, it will now have blessing of the dark master. This blessing alone makes a big knight tanky. We may not even need to add any further defensive relic.

So, we now have 3 super tanky knights and probably only enough points for 4 wardogs. We can put more defensive blessings on 2 of them, and then hide the last two behind cover.

This will make it such that our opponent has no really good targets to shoot at because they are all tanky. I don't know if 3 big knights and 4 wardogs are enough to cover objectives and stuff though. Just wondering. I mean, at least one war dog on a back objective should be fine. We can make one knight obsec. So, 3 knights walking forward to fight over the midboard objectives with one of them being obsec... is that eenough? (With the wardogs providing fire cover from behind.)

The strategy would be to throw our 3 big knights forward boldly, and to be cagey with our war dogs. Once we have whittled down the firepower of our opponent enough, the war dogs can come out and be more aggressive too.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/25 01:52:59


 
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




I like your way of thinking! I came also to the conclusion that 3 Big Knights are the maximum, getting 4 means either no or just one wardog which is really no good idea as wardogs are basically must haves.

I am still toying around with ways to build Despoilers. Double-Battlecannon with Dark Forging as Dreadblade would end up in a huge load of dice as well as 12 shots that ignore LoS at S6 D2 with the potential of killing some heroes.

Double Gatling seems also tempting due to 24 shots + 2D6 Autohits from the flamer. As a dreadblade the Precision Cruelty Bond would set the AP a bit up which seems almost necessary (although not reliable). Another option for the Gatling is using the Deamonic Surge to add +1 to the wound roll, which sadly does only apply to one of the two guns. A Gatling+Meele Weapon Despoiler in house Khormentis seems like quite a versatile pick, especially when using the Blasphemous Engine. It could move at 13”, Wounding better with the Gatling, still hitting hard in Meele and also taking quite a toll until the profile starts bracketing.

I still have to find a way to utilise the thermal cannon, currently it doesn’t look like that much of a good pick
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





CK seems matchup dependent right now. I imagine if we ran into a Tau list with triple Hammerhead Gunships, we would have a bad time. (Not that I have actually faced such an army yet).

We seem to have a decently good matchup against marine armies though. Because most of those are only just damage 2 in close combat, so with the strategem to reduce damage by 1 in melee, combined with the whole army being T7 or T8, its a tough nut for Marine armies to crack.
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Short question: I have 3 Despoilers and a new Abhorrent Kit around. As despoilers seem to be the worst pick currently I wonder how cool people are when using the Despoiler Chassis for a Rampager/Desecrator? Does anyone look at the legs of the kit at all or is it just the weapons that count?


Do what you like. Personally, I've done what you suggested and fielded it as needed depending on what it is outfitted with. I only have one knight chassis, so I outfit it as I like and call it whatever I want to use it as in that game.

'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

bmsattler wrote:
The Huntsman and the Stalker are the same points, and can have the exact same weapons loadout. The Stalker also has the Pterrorshade keyword, while the Huntsman does not. So unless you already have 9 Stalkers and can't get any more, you may as well just get access to the stratagem rather than not.


Not quite, the Huntsman gets an additional meltagun, whereas the Stalker is stuck with the Heavy Stubber. I'm not big on the Huntsman, but I'd rather have the Huntsman w/ Thermal Spear over the Stalker w/ Thermal Spear. The Pterrorshades keyword is overrated, unless I've missed something it only ties into a single subfaction-locked relic and a generic (albeit potentially powerful) strategem. Its not the end of the world if a couple models in your army aren't able to take advantage of it and probably won't much disadvantage you if 33% of your minis (as is the case w/ the list in question) don't have it.

Infernal households are cool, but I just think taking MW is just too harsh. Had a game yesterday and towards the end, I had war dogs on 4W, a big knight on 9W. Imagine if I was infernal household and doing mortal wounds to myself. Those low HP war dogs would be dead and my knight would be on bottom bracket...

I really can't fanthom doing at least 9MW to my whole army on turn 1, and then some more in subsequent rounds.

And not just because our chaos knight armies only have few units, so each unit is precious. But each Wound is tough for our opponent to get through to. We got armor saves, invul saves, ion shields, dark blessings, T7 or T8 ...

So, the fact that if we are infernal, we literally do MW to ourselves is just .... to much. The price to pay for that additional firepower is just not worth it, if you ask me.


I think Khomentis might have some play as a means to Daemon Surging. The main reason for daemonic surge is to get Daemonic Fortitude - I would gladly trade 1MW to get Transknight on my models against certain opponents, it will more than make up for that 1 wound in. Bind the Souls of the Slain strat can potentially help make up for some of the MW too. Problem is that even with Khomentis Household Bond IMO its still too unreliable, I don't think 1MW is worth +1 to wound on one weapon or +3" Mv. Even w/ the re-roll you still only have about a 50/50 shot of getting that Transknight ability, and I don't know that risking 2-3MW is worth it in order to score Transknight + another surge ability. I think even using Khomentis this is not a "do to every knight every turn" type buff but rather a selectively once per game per knight type thing, unless you're up against one of those rare few opponents where paying a couple MW per turn to get Transknight might make a difference in the outcome of the game.

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
I like your way of thinking! I came also to the conclusion that 3 Big Knights are the maximum, getting 4 means either no or just one wardog which is really no good idea as wardogs are basically must haves.

I am still toying around with ways to build Despoilers. Double-Battlecannon with Dark Forging as Dreadblade would end up in a huge load of dice as well as 12 shots that ignore LoS at S6 D2 with the potential of killing some heroes.

Double Gatling seems also tempting due to 24 shots + 2D6 Autohits from the flamer. As a dreadblade the Precision Cruelty Bond would set the AP a bit up which seems almost necessary (although not reliable). Another option for the Gatling is using the Deamonic Surge to add +1 to the wound roll, which sadly does only apply to one of the two guns. A Gatling+Meele Weapon Despoiler in house Khormentis seems like quite a versatile pick, especially when using the Blasphemous Engine. It could move at 13”, Wounding better with the Gatling, still hitting hard in Meele and also taking quite a toll until the profile starts bracketing.

I still have to find a way to utilise the thermal cannon, currently it doesn’t look like that much of a good pick


I'm still gunshy about the price hike for fielding dual weapons, you're looking at about 500 points for any sort of dual-gun knight. I think the better way to go is to take battlecannon + gatling or battlecannon + thermal, use the 20pts you save to get the twin autocannon - or if you're feeling adventurous try out the ruinspear rocket pod. Havoc missile pod is cute too, but I think doesn't bring enough to the table that the army really needs. The problem is though that Tyrant only costs about 100pts more but brings more dakka to the table w/ 4 extra wounds and a better save, so I don't know that you can entirely justify a pure shooty Despoiler for the price.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in us
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu





Eaton Rapids, MI

Just played a home game with my son, brother and nephew in a 2v2 2k team game. I ran a Herpetrax Tyrant with flames/harpoon and two executioners and was paired up with some Death Guard. We played against Salamanders and Nids. We won a nail biter!

Some observations:

Bow to None is just great. My Tyrant ran that with Blessing of the Dark Master and the Traitors Mark. With the extra wounds plus the lack of rerolls and some screening by my partner, I was able to run amok for three turns and really dominate the center of the board. Even in the face of multiple squads of reserved eradicators, venom cannons, a charging swarmlord and eventually even the named Primaris salamanders guy, I was able to stay up and shooting those three turns.

Next, even though the tyrant is slower, the Flamer and harpoon shoot longer.

The mortals on the harpoon happens when an attack is allocated to a model. I need some clarification on that but that seems awesome and better than any other mortal delivery device I can find.

The executioners are awesome!

Fly Molo of Dark Future Gaming!
http://darkfuturegaming.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





House Herpetrax has been working well for me too. Its not just only the increased wounds, it also means that it takes more damage before our knights bracket. And the Iconoclast ambitions are really good too.
   
Made in ca
Excited Doom Diver






I feel pretty overwhelmed by the traits and god-marks.

I have a volcano cannon tyrant, Desocrator, 4 huntsman and 2 executioners, and I have 50pts spare. What do folks recommend for an army trait, and God marks?

I kinda like the idea of making a couple of the knights psykers to take advantage of the powers, but the no-rerolls and gain cp from enemy marks are nice too.

Wolfspear's 2k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




the Favor Warp-Born Stalker is good for the Tyrant. You can deep-strike it in and be in a much better place to position and ensure good firing lanes with it. It doesn't even have to be close when you do so, but you have the option.

The Favor Blessing of the Dark Master is the best defensive one in the game. I'd put it on your Desecrator. That does put you 10 points over. If you don't have the points, you could look at Mirror of Fates instead. CP regen and a 6 to put into a saving throw isn't bad.

For household Bond I'd look at Infernal House Vextrix. They can reroll a hit and a wound each time they shoot. Your set up would benefit from it a lot.
   
Made in ca
Excited Doom Diver






Hey man, I appreciate the advice! I'll try those out for sure. Never thought about deepstriking the tyrant, but that could be fun!

Wolfspear's 2k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
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 jaredb wrote:
Hey man, I appreciate the advice! I'll try those out for sure. Never thought about deepstriking the tyrant, but that could be fun!


I would start with House Hepetrax. Its easy to remember. You just start all your war dogs with +2W and your big knights with +4W. It keeps your army in play longer and it requires more before they fall to a lower damage bracket. So you get more play out of them, and you then get a better feel with what your chaos knights army can do.

After you have gotten more play into it, then you can experiment with other households if you want.

Deep striking the tyrant is definitely a thing. Should be able to squeeze out 10 points from elsewhere. Or even the Tyrant itself if you go with 4 missiles and 1 twin breaker siege cannon only.

Tyrant is good for shooty households. You could explore making the tyrant a dreadblade, give it the Rune of Naktugraa and give it two fell bonds. This way, your tyrant can have entirely different fell bonds than your household bond. And you get to pick and choose the 2 best fell bonds you want for your customized dread blade Tyrant.

I would suggest one of the fell bonds be prideful wrath (counts as double remaining wounds on the damage table). You kind of want your tyrant to be shooting at BS3 for as long as possible. Once it drops to BS4 or worse, it doesn't matter how powerful the guns you are packing if you are missing many of your shots.

Also ... chaos knights will definitely get into melee combat. So, the idea that you can somehow stand back and only shoot is an impractical idea. I have had zero games so far where I didn't end up in close combat melee with almost all of my knights. So Iconoclast's ambition where you have +1 attack and +1 AP on charge or being charged is definitely useful.

A "shooty" chaos knight army is better at shooting, but it will still end up fighting in melee as well. Its just the nature of the 40k game. Its not like you can avoid close combat. If you want to get onto an objective, you are going to end up charging onto it even if you brought knights which were outfitted for shooting. Even if you didn't charge someone, your opponents are going to charge you instead.

I am showing my bias. But Iconoclast is just useful every single game because its almost impossible to avoid melee combat. Meanwhile, going infernal households and using demon surge adds more complexity and skill level required. (Skill I acknowledge I may not even have at this point).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/03 05:14:19


 
   
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 Brymm wrote:


The mortals on the harpoon happens when an attack is allocated to a model. I need some clarification on that but that seems awesome and better than any other mortal delivery device I can find.


I noticed this too, and haven't been able to find anyone else talking about it until now. I'm guessing it's been ignored due to how out of favour the Tyrants are currently.

Clearly we could be encountering some poorly written rules here, but as written, you're quite right - the target takes the mortal wound component merely when the attack is allocated. Seemingly, it doesn't have to wound, or potentially even hit. This doesn't feel entirely right, but I'd argue it's a reasonable reading of the RAW:

'Each time an attack made with this weapon is allocated to a model, that model's unit suffers 3 mortal wounds in addition to any normal damage'.

The problem is definitely in the words 'attack' and 'allocated'. We normally talk about allocating an attack from a ranged weapon when we select its target. I suspect the writer intended this to mean when damage is allocated, but I'd love some discussion on this from people.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/03 12:52:08


 
   
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The Great State of New Jersey

Step 3 of the "Making Attacks" sequence is "Allocate Attacks" (Step 1 is Hit Roll, Step 2 is Wound Roll) - its in the rulebook. Its not really something thats up for interpretation IMO, nor is it poorly written, etc. The MWs are dealt if you successfully roll to wound.

If there was any uncertainty, the wording of the ability is "each time an attack made with this weapon is allocated to a model..." - you do not allocate an attack to a model when you select the target, because you are very specifically selecting a target unit, not a model. The attack sequence is based around the concept of a target unit until Step 3, when the attack (specifically an attack which has successfully wounded, as per the first sentence of Step 3) is specifically allocated to a model within the target unit. Clear as crystal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/03 13:44:41


CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
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chaos0xomega wrote:
Step 3 of the "Making Attacks" sequence is "Allocate Attacks" (Step 1 is Hit Roll, Step 2 is Wound Roll) - its in the rulebook. Its not really something thats up for interpretation IMO, nor is it poorly written, etc. The MWs are dealt if you successfully roll to wound.

If there was any uncertainty, the wording of the ability is "each time an attack made with this weapon is allocated to a model..." - you do not allocate an attack to a model when you select the target, because you are very specifically selecting a target unit, not a model. The attack sequence is based around the concept of a target unit until Step 3, when the attack (specifically an attack which has successfully wounded, as per the first sentence of Step 3) is specifically allocated to a model within the target unit. Clear as crystal.


I think your interpretation is entirely correct, and thank you, that's cleared it up for me.

I don't agree that it's well written though because it isn't particularly intuitive if you're not specifically looking at the base rule book. Unless you know by rote the exact wording of the BRB, my feeling is 'attack', intuitively, doesn't immediately bring to mind the allocation stage they intend.

It's certainly consistent with the BRB, but I think 'attack' is more ambiguous than other terms might have been in the midst of a game.

Bit of a shame too. It could have helped out a decidedly unloved unit, with a decidedly unreliable weapon.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/06/03 16:45:01


 
   
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Chaos knight melee capabilities are nerfed since full tilt disappeared and brigands are much better. Not counting the Vextrix synergy.

Axioma: Don't expect much damage from Stalkers, and Karnivores has 0 shooting resources and they will deal 0 damage half of the matches. Vextrix brigands spam will always have a better winrate.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/03 18:07:21


Orks 5000p 
   
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I'm looking forward to testing a Rampager + 5 Stalkers + 6 Karnivores in an Iconoclast household.
   
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The Great State of New Jersey

 StrayIight wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Step 3 of the "Making Attacks" sequence is "Allocate Attacks" (Step 1 is Hit Roll, Step 2 is Wound Roll) - its in the rulebook. Its not really something thats up for interpretation IMO, nor is it poorly written, etc. The MWs are dealt if you successfully roll to wound.
If there was any uncertainty, the wording of the ability is "each time an attack made with this weapon is allocated to a model..." - you do not allocate an attack to a model when you select the target, because you are very specifically selecting a target unit, not a model. The attack sequence is based around the concept of a target unit until Step 3, when the attack (specifically an attack which has successfully wounded, as per the first sentence of Step 3) is specifically allocated to a model within the target unit. Clear as crystal.


I don't agree that it's well written though because it isn't particularly intuitive if you're not specifically looking at the base rule book. Unless you know by rote the exact wording of the BRB, my feeling is 'attack', intuitively, doesn't immediately bring to mind the allocation stage they intend.


Chalk it up to a decade spent playing Warmachine, but these are the kind of rules distinctions I consider to be important and pay close attention to, as they are key to understanding rules timing and mechanical interaction. You don't have to know the rulebook by rote or be staring at it as you read the rules, but you do need to know the sequence of events in the resolution process - knowing what those steps are/ that one of them is called "allocate attacks" is something that all but freshest, greenest players still learning the ropes should be aware of and familiarize themselves with.

Theres a reason why they may refer to it as "allocate attack" as opposed to what may initially seem a more intuitive/less ambiguous wording like when a unit is "successfully wounded". GW broke down the resolution process into a series of discrete and clearly worded steps. "Select Target", and then the "Make Attacks" sequence consisting of 1. Hit Roll, 2. Wound Roll, 3. Allocate Attack, 4. Saving Throw, 5. Inflict Damage. If they want an ability to trigger when a unit is targeted, they write that the effect triggers when "a unit is selected as a target for an attack with this weapon" (or whatever their standard wording is). If they want it to trigger when a unit is hit, they write that it triggers "when the target unit is hit by an attack from this weapon", etc. etc. etc. Regardless of when the effect triggers, they can easily designate which point in the sequence that happens with a short phrase with no ambiguity or confusion as to what is being described. Some of those distinctions in timing might appear somewhat aribtrary - why trigger "each time an attack made with this weapon is allocated to a model" vs "when an attack made with this weapon successfully wounds the target unit" (again, or whatever the standard wording is), for example? Well, its all in the timing of it and how it interacts with other rules. Using the Harpoon as an example, those mortal wounds can be prevented if the target unit had an ability that triggered at some point in the Roll Wounds step that allowed them to cancel the attack before it could proceed further, because the MW effect doesn't trigger until the attack allocation step, which occurs afterwards. I.E. hypothetically if a unit an ability that said something to the effect of "Roll a die each time this unit is successfully wounded by an attack, on a 5+ the attack sequence for that attack immediately ends", then that unit would not suffer the mortal wounds from the Harpoon because those wounds are not dealt until the next step of the attack sequence. If however, the Thundercoil Harpoons rules read that the target unit suffers mortal wounds "when an attack made with this weapon successfully wounds the target unit" (or something to that effect) instead, then that ability would not block the mortal wounds from occurring. Whether such abilities actually exist/its a valid interaction, I can't say (and if they did, GW would likely need to clarify in an FAQ that the Thundercoil Harpoon w/ MWs triggering on a wound roll would still do MWs against a unit with such an ability because it would be a definite point of debate by the community) - but I will note that this isn't the only rule in the game that triggers when an attack is allocated to a model - disgustingly resilient has the same wording. In general though, I have found GWs wording to be sloppy and inconsistent with these types of abilities and effects and lacking standardization, so its quite possible this is simply a result of that rather than an intentional result of a timing/sequencing concern.

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