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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Eldenfirefly wrote:
let's say they get turn 1 and expose all of their anti tank


Why would anyone expose their anti tank to Knights
They can fire at the big knights from behind obscuring terrain, without exposing themselves to return fire. It's like knights' biggest weakness... of course this doesn't apply to wardogs - another reason they're pushed. I don't think many knights players really want to run all wardogs though, big knights are the main appeal of the army in the first place
   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





Eldenfirefly wrote:
There is the blessing "Warp Borne Stalker". For 30 points, your Abhorent class knight can start from deep strike. This will guarantee you get to do something. I would prefer this on maybe a Tyrant class Harpoon type knight though. Then would get all its guns in range the turn it deep strikes in.


I like warp borne stalker on a wardog brigand; deepstrike obsec with good shooting is great. But, the one thing that makes me prefer strategic reserve, for big knights ad least, is your opponent can't screen you out because you can always come on from your own board edge in your deployment zone within 9" (makes it good for counter assaulting aggressive armies too).

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Whether our knights get taken out (even if we go second), depends on the matchup too. Some armies don't have such a devastating first turn shooting, then we can safely start on the board.


This is a good point, and worth remembering.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

...Now their anti tank is exposed...


Therein lies the problem our opponents anti tank doesn't need to be exposed to target our big knights. Because of Titanic they can always shoot our big knights from behind obscuring cover without exposing themselves. If my opponents had to expose their anti tank units to take out big knights it would be fine, but they don't.

You are right though, not all armies have that kind of long ranged anti tank that means they can just sit behind obscuring terrain without exposing themselves. Unfortunately, for me I do play against a lot of Tau and Eldar. Railguns and lances from behind obscuring terrain does not create a conducive environment for big knights to thrive in.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Other armies need to sacrifice something to tank anti tank guns. Like obsec, mobility, etc. The good thing about our army is we don't sacrifice anything to take anti tank guns. An amiger class wardog still fights great in close combat while shooting 3 melta shots per turn and is obsec. Similarly, a titanic is equally versatile. Can fight in melee, can destroy armour easily too. Counts as 10 models on a point.


Definitely one of the highlights of the army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/13 07:30:43



 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

I always ran 6 War Dogs (2 Executioners and 4 Huntsmen) and 2 Abhorrent Class Knights (a Despoiler and a Desecrator) anyway, so I'm quite pleased to hear this discussion.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dreadblade/
[1,100] Ultramarines
[1,900] Chaos Knights
[1,000] Thousand Sons
[1,000] Grey Knights 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





You still need to expose yourself somewhat just to be able to see a target. If you are behind a solid wall, you cannot see anything. And if you move in such a way that you can draw line of sight to a knight, well, that means that maybe a wardog or even the knight itself will get to shoot you as well now after some moving.

I mean, if there are 7 war dogs and 2 knights in the field, it might be difficult to hide from every single one of them.

There is also the issue of range. If you are packing anti tank stuff like Multi meltas. that's a 24 inch range. You have to move forward to get into range and accordingly, that will expose yourself.

Not everyone is packing lascannons with 48 inch ranges. And not everyone is playing Tau Railguns.

I guess the question is, how much is the "usual" amount of anti-tank are people bringing? We aren't quite in a Knight meta where people feel like you need to bring enough anti tank to kill a knight tyrant in one turn. So, if we aren't, then people won't be bringing quite so many anti tank weapons in their "standard" take all comers list.
   
Made in es
Krazy Grot Kutta Driva




CK cannot be deployed very defensive or you has no presence in the match and you lose.

Orks 5000p 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Kebabcito wrote:
CK cannot be deployed very defensive or you has no presence in the match and you lose.


Yes, this is a good point. Plus I feel that degradation is our biggest enemy. It feels like we have a strong turn 1 and 2 when most or all of our knights and war dogs are still healthy. Once we start taking damage, we wiff a lot and our damage output plummets. So the effectiveness of our army plummets on turn 4 and 5.

This means we have to be aggressive and score a lot of points on turn 1 to 3 to build up enough of a lead. Because very often, our opponents will be outscoring us on turns 4 and 5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Have another question btw. If we have an iconoclast household super heavy detahment. Putting one dreadblade in it will not affect anything right?

Also, in such a case, can the Dreadblade take Infernal fell bonds ? Or is he restricted to Iconoclast Fell bonds?

It feels like the dreadblade should be able to take infernal fell bonds because... its a dreadblade! lol They are not part of the household.

The Iconoclast households are really good for melee, but it feels like if you want a shooty knight, maybe infernal is better. So, one way is to have an infernal dreadblade with fell bonds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/14 07:06:22


 
   
Made in us
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu





Eaton Rapids, MI

It specifically states “excluding dreadblade units” in the Houshold Bonds section. It doesn’t appear they get any at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My mistake, in the main Fell Bond section, it does have to have a different one from the rest of the guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And it does clarify that an infernal picks from the internal list and an iconoclast picks from the iconoclast list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now that I’m reading this all again, I’m more confused than ever. Pretend I want to run a Knight Tyrant in my Death Guard army as a Dreadblade, what rules do I get? Do I get a bond, warlord trait, relic as a Fallen Hero? Do I get an ambition? Can I take a mark ability?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/14 11:57:30


Fly Molo of Dark Future Gaming!
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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I believe you get everything but the actual Infernal or Iconoclast ambition. There's the one exception in Infernal if you pick Biomechanical Fusion which explicitly grants the Infernal boost and ignore the mortals from the boost on a 4+.
   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





Eldenfirefly wrote:
Kebabcito wrote:
CK cannot be deployed very defensive or you has no presence in the match and you lose.


Yes, this is a good point. Plus I feel that degradation is our biggest enemy. It feels like we have a strong turn 1 and 2 when most or all of our knights and war dogs are still healthy. Once we start taking damage, we wiff a lot and our damage output plummets. So the effectiveness of our army plummets on turn 4 and 5.

This means we have to be aggressive and score a lot of points on turn 1 to 3 to build up enough of a lead. Because very often, our opponents will be outscoring us on turns 4 and 5.


This is why I'm underwhelmed by infernal. Doing mortal wounds to yourself in addition to enemies doing damage makes our army even more fragile.

I think Inconoclast with access to Herpetrax (+4/2 wounds) or Prideful Wrath (count as double wounds for degradation) are great choices for that reason.


 
   
Made in es
Krazy Grot Kutta Driva




Im going 7 brigands, desecrator and abby with vertrax rerolls.

We are super swuidhy, even more than I expected. You stsy behind just shooting or you rush with 10 karnivores like crazy. Trading damage arround the board means 0-20

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Eaton Rapids, MI

Prideful Wrath might be the sleeper hit of the book. I used to love Abominable Constitution in the last book just because movement with such limited models was so important. I used to pair with Pride Fueled Fury so my Wardogs were always dangerous, even at one wound. This trait combines these two in an almost better way because it also helps our shooting degrade less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That means a Tyrant needs to be down to 7 wounds (!!!) to hit their second profile. This is really good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/14 14:03:31


Fly Molo of Dark Future Gaming!
http://darkfuturegaming.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I really like every one of the Iconoclast custom Bonds, while the Infernal have a couple decent ones. I really like Vextrix for the rerolls, though it depends on what kind of game you are hoping to play. I feel like defensive abilities are good, but only if you have enough defense to actually make a difference.

I'm wondering if the Infernal Hellforged Construction (Ramshackle) would combo with the Nurgle -1 strength aura to really hurt melee-focused armies.
   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





I wonder if Prideful Wrath is overshadowed by Dauntless (Herpetrax).

Wardog Prideful Wrath:
9 wounds to go from top profile to second profile.
10 wounds to go from top profile to bottom profile.
12 wounds to destroy.

Wardog Dauntless:
8 wounds to go from top profile to second profile.
11 wounds to go from top profile to bottom profile.
14 wounds to destroy.

Abhorrent Prideful Wrath:
18 wounds to go from top profile to second profile.
21 wounds to go from top profile to bottom profile.
24 wounds to destroy.

Abhorrent Dauntless:
16 wounds to go from top profile to second profile.
22 wounds to go from top profile to bottom profile.
28 wounds to destroy.

The Herpetrax stratagem isn't bad either Mortals to everything within 6" is pretty useful in a pinch (especially if it triggers moral).

bmsattler wrote:
I really like every one of the Iconoclast custom Bonds, while the Infernal have a couple decent ones. I really like Vextrix for the rerolls, though it depends on what kind of game you are hoping to play. I feel like defensive abilities are good, but only if you have enough defense to actually make a difference.

I'm wondering if the Infernal Hellforged Construction (Ramshackle) would combo with the Nurgle -1 strength aura to really hurt melee-focused armies.


Yeah it does combo. I feel for infernal you either go Vextrix for the crazy re-roll one hit and one wound, Hellforged Construction (Ramshackle) or Korvax for a solid trait (picking an extra harbinger trait to be active for the game is actually quite strong), amazing relic, and the move through terrain/model stratagem (which is brilliant). But losing the extra attach and AP really sucks. An Iconoclast stalker almost has the same damage output as an Infernal Karnivor vs marines (same number of attacks but the extra AP balances out being WS3+).

Infernal Wardog Karnivor
5A WS2+ S10 AP -4 against T4 3+ armour of contempt does 2.89 wounds after saves.

Iconoclast Wardog Stalker
5A WS3+ S10 AP -5 against T4 3+ armour of contempt does 2.77 wounds after saves.


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I think there is also good reason to consider a Castellan Tyrant Dreadblade with the infernal reroll hit rolls of 1 inside 18'' with the Warp Born Stalker favor. I think the Tyrant is slow and vulnerable to getting shot turn 1 before it can use its 8'' move to try to get line of sight to something. Deep-striking it allows it to pick a target and be fairly confident in killing it and the reroll 1s to hit at closer ranges lets it add some reliability to its shooting that it otherwise lacks. I'd also consider the Rune of Nak't'graa (one of the only relics a Tyrant can take) to add something like Ramshackle or the Infernal boost from Biomechanical Fusion on top. You're paying bigtime for a Tyrant, might as well get the most out of it.
   
Made in es
Krazy Grot Kutta Driva




Vextris is for brigand spam and desecrator diamonas with abby as a screen with the relic, being 15" movement and damage 4 tentacles and damage 3 tail.

Iconoclast is for karnivores and rampager with sword relic.

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Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





All good points to consider!

Yeah, prideful wrath looks good. And yes, I love the idea of putting warp stalker on a knight to give it deep strike. Honestly, a good player will probably hide most or all of his best assets on turn 1 so you simply won't get much shooting in.

I would also like to add this fallen trait which I think is a sleeper for Harpoon class Tyrants. Its the fallen bond called Bold Tyrants. So all shooting within 18 inches get an additional AP.

Now this may not seem like much, but literally all of the Harpoon Tyrant's best guns are 18 inches. So, with this trait, now suddenly, its Dark flame flame cannon is AP3, not to mention is melta guns are now all AP5 and its harpoon is now AP 7 !!! lol. If you fire its twin desecrator cannons within 18 inches, even those are AP2 now! If you want to go ham, take the relic Rune of Nak'T'Graa and take the precision cruelty fell bond as well. Now all 6s to wound do an additional AP as well as 1 additional Damage. Imagine now the 6s on the Darkflame cannon will result in AP4, 3 damage ! And even the twin desecrator cannons are now doing AP3, Damage 3 on 6s to wound now! lol

A Harpoon class Tyrant coming out of deep strike with those two traits will absolutely destroy anything within 18 inches of it, with all its meltas, and guns. There will literally be a radius of nothing but smoking ruin around him after he is done firing.

Tyrants are almost forced into becoming dreadblades from our codex because they benefit from so few relics. The best one for them is literally the Rune of NaK'T'Graa because it lets you take an additional fell bond and there are actually some very interesting fell bonds for Tyrants to take.

Also, I got another question. A true dreadblade has no house affiliation right? So its neither iconoclast or infernal. So, does this mean that if I take Rune of Nak'T'Graa, I can take one infernal fell bond and one iconoclast fell bond ?

I honestly don't know why they even classified fell bonds into those two groups when true Dreadblades do not get household ambitions and are supposedly neither infernal nor Iconoclast.

I also feel that the best way to run a more resilient infernal household is to actually not take any named household, but instead run your entire army as a custom infernal household with the Biomechanical Fusion fell bond trait. Now all of your knights get demonic surge and they also get a 4+ save to shrug off mortal wounds they receive from doing demonic surge. I mean, that's really the best trait if you want to use your demonic surge from turn 1 all the way to turn 5. Otherwise, you won't have much of an army left after a while because you keep doing mortal wounds to yourself. I mean, now that we seem to be pushed towards bringing 1/2 big knights and many small war dogs, the damage that demonic surge does to your army is ridiculous. Even 1 mortal wound per demonic surge. If we are running 2 big knights are 7 war dogs. That's 9 mortal wounds to ourselves. How much of an army can we have if we keep doing 9 mortal wounds to ourselves every turn ? And that's if we didn't choose doing d3 mortal wounds. Imagine doing 9d3 mortal wounds to ourselves ... I only know that if I was a player and my opponent told me he was doing 9d3 mortal wounds to his army before he even did anything, I would be totally happy... lol And if said opponent wanted to do this to himself for more than one turn... well, I think I won the game without having to do much lol. I just don't think anything is worth the self inflicted damage.

I personally lean towards not taking any self inflicted damage at all. So, I always find myself gravitating towards Iconoclast households. Its wierd because movement wise, its actually infernal households that are the fastest because they can demonic surge for that +3 inch move. So, if you want a very aggressive melee style army, then infernal will get you into combat the fastest. yet Iconoclast with its +1 attack and +1 AP on charge hits the hardest. Yet Iconoclast is slower than infernal... (movement wise). I don't know if they purposely made it this way to balance it or something.

I also get the sense that our playstyle for chaos knights is a very in your face aggressive style. We don't do finese. We are supposed to throw everything forward boldly, take as many objectives as we can and kill as much as we can turn 1 and 2. We stomp our entire army forward and just tell our opponent "give me your best shot, because I am going to hit you back with everything I have got and its going to hurt bad!" We can't hide very well since all our models are big (our big knights can't hide at all). And by late game, we have so few models plus degradation. So yeah. We wanna be so far ahead that turns 4 and 5 are cleanup. (Or our opponent conceded by turn 3).

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/05/15 02:43:51


 
   
Made in gr
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu





Athens, Greece

Greetings People!

I have played one game so far choosing khorvax household and it seems that their stratagem is so much needed. Apart from that I agree with most people above regarding the daemonic surge table and that iconoclast might be the way to go. I have to prepare a list for a big team tournament I am going to participate and I would be more than happy if you could lend a hand in giving some feedback on how to set up my list.

Right now I am something into this (still not finished)

Executioner 155
Executioner 155

310

Stalker 145
Stalker 145

290

Huntsman 145
Huntsman 145
Huntsman 145

335

Abominant
Blessing of the Dark master, infernal quest, soul-raptor swarm460 pts

Desecrator
Lord of Dread, Rune of Darkness,
Warp-borne stalker 430 pts

That’s 1825 with a lot of points to spend on more favors or whatever. Any clue?
Ps I know this is not army list section but still I believe it fits

Killing is easy. Being politically correct is a pain in the ass...
My Chaos Space Marines showcase so far: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/437151.page (too old - i will update it soon) 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




You can duplicate the Huntsman equipment on the Stalker and get the Pterrorshade keyword on top of the thermal spear and chaintalon.

The Helm of Dogs is worth looking at adding to one of the Stalkers.

If the Abominant is your Warlord, it would be worth looking at adding a second Warlord trait to add in the Aura of Dread and make your leadership shenanigans stronger.

I really like the Mirror of Fates on a War Dog for cheap CP regen and some late-game survivability.
   
Made in gr
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu





Athens, Greece

bmsattler wrote:
You can duplicate the Huntsman equipment on the Stalker and get the Pterrorshade keyword on top of the thermal spear and chaintalon.

The Helm of Dogs is worth looking at adding to one of the Stalkers.

If the Abominant is your Warlord, it would be worth looking at adding a second Warlord trait to add in the Aura of Dread and make your leadership shenanigans stronger.

I really like the Mirror of Fates on a War Dog for cheap CP regen and some late-game survivability.


I didn’t quite catch you the on the pterroshade keyword .

Yes I was thinking the aura of terror as well. Maybe make the desecrator warlord so he gets that? In conjunction with the lord of dread WT he might be a better choice? Also do you find that warp borne stalker fits his role? Or maybe instead of him add a rampager?

Mirror of fates seems solid for 15 pts.

Killing is easy. Being politically correct is a pain in the ass...
My Chaos Space Marines showcase so far: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/437151.page (too old - i will update it soon) 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




The Huntsman and the Stalker are the same points, and can have the exact same weapons loadout. The Stalker also has the Pterrorshade keyword, while the Huntsman does not. So unless you already have 9 Stalkers and can't get any more, you may as well just get access to the stratagem rather than not.

I see the Abominant's role as a distraction carnifex, pushing into the enemy lines to force them to focus on it rather than the rest of your army. This is because it can stack Winds of the Warp for a 5+ fnp with a durability favor like Dark Master and a relic such as the Soul Raptor Swarm or a 2+ save to be stupid tough. It can also take advantage of the Geiststorm ability from the Dread tables to force enemy units within 12 of him to shoot him as the closest. That is why I would put the Aura of Dread WLT on it instead of the Desecrator, which wants to be back a little supporting the War Dogs.

I like a Desecrator more than a Rampager. They are fairly similar, the Rampager gets 2 inches more movement and an extra attack while supporting melee War Dogs. The Desecrator gets a powerful gun and supports shooting War Dogs. I would personally put Warp Born Stalker on a War Dog and put a durability buff on the Desecrator. I like the Putrid Carapace for access to the Nurgle act-at-full-profile stratagem.

Putting the Warp Born Stalker on a War Dog lets you combine it with Encircling Hounds to threaten three War Dogs coming in from reserves to force them to screen out, which gives you things to shoot at. It also gives you fewer hulls on the table which lets you use the obscuring terrain for the remaining models more effectively.
   
Made in es
Krazy Grot Kutta Driva




My list for a tournament next week, I'm going for top3


++ Super-Heavy Detachment -3CP (Chaos - Chaos Knights) [103 PL, 5CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

Gametype: Matched

+ Lord of War +

Knight Abominant [24 PL, -1CP, 460pts]: 4. Knight Diabolus, Arch-Tyrant, Character (Traitoris Lance), Favour of the Dark Mechanicum (Vextrix), Heretek Power Core, House Vextrix, Undivided - Blessing of the Dark Master, Vortex Terrors, Warlord, Winds of the Warp

Knight Desecrator [22 PL, -2CP, 435pts]: 1. Eager for the Kill, Character (Tyrannical Court), Corrupted Heirlooms, House Vextrix, Reaper chainsword, The Diamonas, Tzeentch - Cursed Rune of Fate

War Dog Brigand Squadron [24 PL, 465pts]: House Vextrix
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber

War Dog Brigand Squadron [24 PL, -1CP, 465pts]: House Vextrix
. War Dog Brigand: Corrupted Heirlooms, Diabolus heavy stubber, Helm of Dogs
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber

War Dog Executioner Squadron [9 PL, 175pts]: House Vextrix
. War Dog Executioner: Diabolus heavy stubber, Tzeentch - Mirror of Fates

++ Total: [103 PL, 5CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

I'm going Vextrix. Full rerolls in the melta/laser of the brigands, the diamonas, my abominant will move +2" and will heal d3 every round. The relic will make his damage D4 flat and his tail D3.

My list will have:

- An abominant in the front line, trying to survive as much as he can with all my CPs, trying to spread the harbringer and charging everything I think is a threat for my shooter platforms.

- The desecrator will give 1s reroll for the gatling spam of the wardogs, he is good in melee but will have diamonas for Vextrix synergy and he will be able to unlock favours of gods turn1 usually (which rampager cannot) he has rune of fate for trying to fish the 4++ early and still do some damage with the 6+ saves. Still thinking about going 5+++ instead of this shi**.

- 6 Brigands with melta/laser and gatling. They will stay at 30" till round 3, trying to kill everything they can without engaging to much in troubles. I'll try to avoid all the charges as posible.

- Helverin will stay behind in maps where there's a deployment zone objective. Actually there aren't any missions with 2 objectives so I'm going only with one. His weapons are 60" so I don't think he will have as much troubles as a brigand trying to be useful in the match.

My missions will be storm of darkness, strangehold and third depends. I'm not going the ruthless tyrant strangehold free points because I lack a third good secondary. I think it is a huge trap.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/15 19:28:47


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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I like just about everything about the list. I would personally switch out the Knight Diabolos WLT for Aura of Dread, but I understand the appeal. I feel like its a little light on melee, but that much shooting might be enough to make the difference. The list definitely leans in to the Vextrix strengths. I'll be very interested to hear your experiences once you've run it through the tournament!
   
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Kebabcito wrote:
My list for a tournament next week, I'm going for top3


Nice list! Made me realise helm of dogs works when shooting and fighting. Such a good relic.

So far storm of darkness has been a great secondary. It's the fact that you can do the action in any moral phase. So you can start it in your moral phase on one objective, then do another one in your opponents moral phase (which is guaranteed to complete). Not sure if this is intentional, might not survive the FAQ. But otherwise it could only ever score a max of 12 which seems terrible (currently turn 5 it can't be scored).

I tend to go stranglehold, storm of darkness and grind them down (or another decent kill secondary if I can max it).


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Kebabcito wrote:
My list for a tournament next week, I'm going for top3


++ Super-Heavy Detachment -3CP (Chaos - Chaos Knights) [103 PL, 5CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

Gametype: Matched

+ Lord of War +

Knight Abominant [24 PL, -1CP, 460pts]: 4. Knight Diabolus, Arch-Tyrant, Character (Traitoris Lance), Favour of the Dark Mechanicum (Vextrix), Heretek Power Core, House Vextrix, Undivided - Blessing of the Dark Master, Vortex Terrors, Warlord, Winds of the Warp

Knight Desecrator [22 PL, -2CP, 435pts]: 1. Eager for the Kill, Character (Tyrannical Court), Corrupted Heirlooms, House Vextrix, Reaper chainsword, The Diamonas, Tzeentch - Cursed Rune of Fate

War Dog Brigand Squadron [24 PL, 465pts]: House Vextrix
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber

War Dog Brigand Squadron [24 PL, -1CP, 465pts]: House Vextrix
. War Dog Brigand: Corrupted Heirlooms, Diabolus heavy stubber, Helm of Dogs
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber
. War Dog Brigand: Diabolus heavy stubber

War Dog Executioner Squadron [9 PL, 175pts]: House Vextrix
. War Dog Executioner: Diabolus heavy stubber, Tzeentch - Mirror of Fates

++ Total: [103 PL, 5CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

I'm going Vextrix. Full rerolls in the melta/laser of the brigands, the diamonas, my abominant will move +2" and will heal d3 every round. The relic will make his damage D4 flat and his tail D3.

My list will have:

- An abominant in the front line, trying to survive as much as he can with all my CPs, trying to spread the harbringer and charging everything I think is a threat for my shooter platforms.

- The desecrator will give 1s reroll for the gatling spam of the wardogs, he is good in melee but will have diamonas for Vextrix synergy and he will be able to unlock favours of gods turn1 usually (which rampager cannot) he has rune of fate for trying to fish the 4++ early and still do some damage with the 6+ saves. Still thinking about going 5+++ instead of this shi**.

- 6 Brigands with melta/laser and gatling. They will stay at 30" till round 3, trying to kill everything they can without engaging to much in troubles. I'll try to avoid all the charges as posible.

- Helverin will stay behind in maps where there's a deployment zone objective. Actually there aren't any missions with 2 objectives so I'm going only with one. His weapons are 60" so I don't think he will have as much troubles as a brigand trying to be useful in the match.

My missions will be storm of darkness, strangehold and third depends. I'm not going the ruthless tyrant strangehold free points because I lack a third good secondary. I think it is a huge trap.



Very important question- how do you have the new rules on Battlescribe? Mine is not showing any of those.
   
Made in es
Krazy Grot Kutta Driva




Yes, I gave some damage to Abhominant so my opponent cannot ignore it. Anyway, I've been thinking about the ObSec trait. Abhominant is an absolute monster first 3 rounds, and having 10 guardsman in the middle of the board with ObSec can give me a lot of matches. I may end playing him with Obsec.

Indeed Storm of Darkness is insane, it can be done with the abhominant in turn1 if he can reach the middle objective so the opponents are -2ld since turn1 and you have 9 free VPplus stranglehold early game.

Battlescribe is not released yet, you must download the commit hand-by.

Orks 5000p 
   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





Something that came up in my last game was Crushed Like Vermin.

On an Iconoclast Desecrator you get 5 stomp attacks hitting on 3+ after the -1 to hit (because they are WS2+). With the Break Their Lines stratagem or Worthy Offerings bond (against characters) that goes back up to a 2+. On average that means 8.33MW. If you're a Knight Diabolus That's 12MW (14MW on a Rampager).

It doesn't work on Vehicles or Monsters, but it does work on characters.

1CP to guarantee picking up a 2++ save archon or transhuman/3++ save characters is great!

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/05/18 18:50:41



 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Infernal households are cool, but I just think taking MW is just too harsh. Had a game yesterday and towards the end, I had war dogs on 4W, a big knight on 9W. Imagine if I was infernal household and doing mortal wounds to myself. Those low HP war dogs would be dead and my knight would be on bottom bracket...

I really can't fanthom doing at least 9MW to my whole army on turn 1, and then some more in subsequent rounds.

And not just because our chaos knight armies only have few units, so each unit is precious. But each Wound is tough for our opponent to get through to. We got armor saves, invul saves, ion shields, dark blessings, T7 or T8 ...

So, the fact that if we are infernal, we literally do MW to ourselves is just .... to much. The price to pay for that additional firepower is just not worth it, if you ask me.

I would go Infernal only for the household bond, but I literally will not use demonic surge unless I had some relic or warlord trait that could shrug off the MW reliably. And that means only one knight out of my whole army would be using demonic surge.

The only two situations the demonnic surge might be worth it is as follows and they are both situational.

1) Our army is a pure melee army. Karnaviores, rampagers. We want to just charge our opponent turn 1 or 2. So demonic surge is for the +3" movement. Even then this is situational. Because a good opponent will know to screen you out. You won't be getting any good turn 1 charges into good targets. You have to fight through all the chaff. So, not sure the +3 inch movement will matter against a good opponent.

2) We are facing an army with lots of Strength 9 or better guns. So the Transhuman is a thing. I don't mention Strength 8, because if the wardogs are already only 12W. Doing d3 MW to yourself to get transhuman on a wardog... is like giving your opponent one free heavy hit. And to do it on all 7 of your wardogs... is like giving your opponent 7 free heavy hits. I would rather not demonic surge and just let my opponent try and hit me and wound me, and then I still get ion shield saves. So, it might only be worth it, on a big knight, if its facing an army with some or lots of Str 9 or better guns. This is extremely situational. Like most people are rocking Str 8 for anti tank. There are only a few armies out there with such Str 9 or better guns. So is it worth it to go infernal household just for these rare situations you are facing such armies? I mean, if your meta has lots of Tau I suppose it could be a thing...

GW simply didn't do the math on demonic surge mortal wounds. In this current meta where the codex seems to be driving us towards running more wardogs. The price for demonic surge is just too high.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 01:40:54


 
   
Made in es
Krazy Grot Kutta Driva




D3 mortals can be justified under a really powerful effect that decides the matches.

+3" is not worth it because you cannot ensure the charge will be succesfull. +1 wound is very good but only in 1 weapon is not. Transhuman is not good in a T7-8 army.

So, we must directly compare the difference between Vextrix/Korvax and Iconoclast+household.

For example, comparing Vextrix rerolls vs +2/+4 wounds and +1A -1ap. This comparison may not be as easy as it was when you were comparing only the households. In this case, the ambition bonus should be considered in iconoclast but not in surge as it is not worth.

At the end, I think you will have to decide between the rerolls in the melta-laser S9 or the charge of stalker with much more damage.

Axioma here: Desecrator and helm of dogs can make the point here. full 1s rerolls is close to Vextrix rerolls, which can give us the next path:

- You want to play desecrator? You can play Hexperax house and stalkers with laser/chainsaw. You will be able to shoot with close to full rerrolls and then charge with all your list with full damage.

- You want to spam dogs? Abby+10 brigands, you don't need the iconoclast buff and you just stay 30" away with Abby in front crushing everyone.

Orks 5000p 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I'd gladly have Transhuman against a triple Stormsurge list. I'd be interested to see how much of a difference Ramshackle Infernal might make. I don't get enough games in to know what the meta is like anywhere.

Iconoclast has a lot to offer, no doubt. I think it will take experimentation to see what balance of offense vs. defense you take, and where. Bold Tyrants or Prideful Wrath?
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah, but again that's super situational because how often are you going to face triple stormsurge lists. Even against that, I wonder about the math. Because the whole point against a 3xstormsurge list is to transhuman. So you must take d3 MW to choose transhuman for your demonic surge. So if you have 9 models in your army, you have now done 9d3 MW to yourself just to give your whole army transhuman against those triple stormsurge. And they might still roll hot on their wound saves. So, end of the day, is doing a guaranted 9d3 MW to ourselves just to transhuman our entire army worth it?

If most of the time, we never want to use demonic surge. And its about the household specific traits, we can also consider Iconoclast custom bonds. (Under the Iconoclast fell bonds). We can create our own custom iconoclast household. There is a whole list there out of which I am pretty sure some would be good.
   
 
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