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Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Yorkshire

With the codex previews coming thick and fast I thought it would be good to get some chat going on how to get the best out of your spikey knights.

Here is a brief summary from codex reviews.

Units
Spoiler:
Wardogs: Following the Armiger statline, can be taken in mixed units of both chain cleaver/thermal spear and autocannon variants.

Knight Despoiler: Your run of the mill chaos knight following the usual t8 24 wound statline. Weapons can be taken in any combination so double Avenger Gatling Cannon/thermal cannon etc is still viable. 'Engines of destruction' rule basically mirrors the gallant statline of WS 2+ 5 attacks when you take two mele weapons.

Knight Tyrant: The big boys, a staight copy and paste from the castellan and valliant models from imperial knights.

Knight Decsecrator: One of the two new units from the chaos knight kit. Laser destructor and fist/chainsword. Laser destructor is range 60'' heavy d3 str 14 d6 damage with d3 mortal wounds on a 6+. This unit (like the preceptor) follows the standard knight statline and grants reroll hit rolls of 1 to wardog units. You cannot take carapace weapons with this model.

Knight Rampager: Basically a knight gallant that scores 2 hits on a natural hit roll of 6 with with fist/chainsword. Again no carapace weapons.


Household Ambitions
Spoiler:

Iconoclast: +1 attack and an extra 1 ap when you charge, are charged or preform a heroic intervention. 12" bubble that forces an extra model to flee if morale is failed.

Infernal: Take a mortal wound to roll for random buff of d3 mortals to choose buff. Either increace toughness by 1, increase a single weapons strength and damge by one (hello str 7, dmg 3 avenger) or add 2" to move, 1" to advance and charge.


Stratergems
Spoiler:

Ion Aegis – 2 CP If a Knight Tyrant stays still grant a 5++ to friendly chaos units wholly within 6".

Spiteful Demise – 2 CP Chaos Knights model explodes on a 4+ instead of a 6.

Thunderstomp – 1 CP Titanic Chaos Knight selects one enemy Infantry or Swarm within 1″ that unit suffers D3 Mortal Wounds.

Skyreaper Protocols – 1 CP Reroll missed to Hit rolls in the Shooting Phase for a Wardog with Wardog Autocannons.

Rotate Ion Shields – 1/3CP +1 Ion sheild save (note cannot be used against melee like Imperial Knights)

Corrupted Heirlooms – 1/3 CP Standard extra relics.

Tyrannical Court – 1/3 CP up to two Chaos Knights gain Character and a Warlord Trait

Pack Dogs – 1 CP When a Wardog finishes a charge move other Wardogs within 12″ can reroll Charges

Chainsweep – 1 CP Reaper Chainsword Chaos Knight, roll 1D6 for each enemy model within 3″, on a 6 the unit suffers 1 Mortal Wound

Death Grip – 1 CP Same as Imperial Knights

Daemonic Guidance System – 3CP May target a Character with a Shieldbreaker Missile even if they are not the closest target

Full Tilt – 2 CP Chaos Knight may charge even if it Advanced

Devastating Reach – 1 CP Same as Imperial Knights

Titanic Duel – 1 CP Titanic Chaos Knight is fighting another Titanic target, both players secretly choose a number between 1 and 3. If both players pick the same number nothing happens, if they pick different numbers they both get that many extra attacks but may only target Titanic targets.

Trail of Destruction – 2 CP Reroll all hits in a phase for a knight.

Break the Enemy Line – 2 CP In fight phase pick one enemy unit within 1″ of an Iconoclast model that made a charge this turn. That Knight may reroll all hit rolls.

Vow of Carnage – 1 CP iconoclast only. Gain an extra attack for each 10 models slain. Pregame stratergem, can only take one vow.

Vow of Dominance – 2 CP All wound rolls of 1,2 and 3 fail regardless of modifiers. Essentially limiting incoming fire to str 8! As above

Vow of the Beastslayer – 1 CP Against targets with 8+ Wounds this model may reroll to Wound rolls of a 1. As above

Bind the Sounds of the Defeated – 2 CP Roll for each model destroyed, on 4+ gain a wound, up to 6.

Pack with the Dark Gods – 3 CP Infernal only. If you were destroyed but did not explode stand back up on 4+ with d3 wounds.

Daemonic Ammunition – 1 CP All Heavy Stubbers become S5

Diablolic Rift – 2 CP Enemy Psykers suffer Perils on any roll not just a double 1 or double 6 when within 12″


Artifacts
Spoiler:

Veil of Medrengard: +4 Invulnerable save, iconoclast only

Khorne Target: once per battle and One fight phase ignore opponent Invulnerable saves and reverse you have no invulnerable saves.

Ion Aegis: 5+ Invulnerable 6″ save bubble for any Chaos units wholly within.

Tyrants Banner: +1 LD to all chaos units within 6″ and on a 5+ gain 1 CP every turn.

The Teeth that Hunger – Replaces Chainsword S+8 AP -4 Damage 6. +1 Attack, and the end of a battle round where you don’t kill any models this model suffers 1 Mortal Wound.

Bound Yaradian Psychogheist – When shooting on an unmodified roll of a 6 the AP of the attack is improved by 1.

The Traitors Mark – Enemies within 12″ are -1 LD. -2 LD when they are within 6″.

Quicksilver throne of Slaanesh – +1 to Advance or Charge rolls. Always fights first.

Rune of Nak’T’Graa. Model gains a 5++ save, in close combat. Dreadblade only.

Helm of Warp-Sight: When firing ranged weapons, Ignore modifiers to Hit. Not useable on Knight Tyrants.

Relic Laser Destroyer: Heavy 3, Str16 AP-4 Damage D6. Wound roll of a 6 inflicts D3 Mortal Wounds in addition.

Tzeentchian Pyrothrone: Gains Psyker keyword, it knows Smite, cast 1 deny 1. If destroyed by a perils it automatically explodes.

Carapace of Nurgle: When this model makes a save in melee on a 4+ if causes a Mortal Wound to the unit that caused it.

Blasphemous Engines: Dreadblade only. Count as having twice the wounds for using damage chart

Gauntlet of Ascension: Reroll hits and wounds! Also gain 1str and 1attack if you kill a character (no minus to hit).


Warlord Traits
Spoiler:
Objective secured, counts as 10 models.

Each enemy vehicle within 6" of the Warlord suffers a Mortal Wound on a 4+ at the end of your movement phase.

+1 Attack.

Deny one Psychic Power, 5+++ against Wounds caused in the Psychic phase. (If combined with Tzeentch artifact is deny 2)

+1 Charge range and +1 Attack while in the opponents deployment zone.

Enemy units within 12" -1 to their charge rolls. Morale for enemy units within 12" is taken on 2D6 instead of 1. Discarding the lowest.


Dreadblades
Spoiler:
These are limited to one per detachment but get to keep household traits as far as I can tell.

You can take pacts (positive boosts) and daminations (de buffs that are activated if you roll your leadership or above on 2d6 each turn).

You choose one pact or randomly roll for two and choose two damnations or roll for one.

Pacts:

Re-roll hit rolls against Character or Titanic (shooting and melee!)

Roll 1D6 for each enemy unit within 1″ of this Knight when it charges, for each 4+ the unit suffers D3 Mortal Wounds

Roll a D6 at the start of the game, 1-3 +2″ Move, 4-5 improve WS by 1, 6 improve BS by 1

+1 LD, at the start of the first battle round, if on the table you gain 1 Command Point

Any attacks with an AP of -1 count as AP 0 against this Knight

Can perform a Heroic Intervention but the range is increased to 6″

Damnations:

Knight may not benefit from any Stratagems

Knight may not fall back and BS is reduced to 6+

Roll a D6 at the end of any Phase that this Knight loses a Wound, on a 4+ it loses and additional Wound

Knight always fights last even if it charged

Knight must shoot or charge the nearest enemy unit

-1 from Advance, Charge and to Hit rolls


Points
Spoiler:

Knight Desecrator 385

Knight Despoiler 285
Knight Despoiler with Reaper Chainsword and Thunderstrike Gauntlet 305 (must still pay for weapons on top of this)

Knight Rampager 320

Knight Tyrant 500

Wardog 160

Reaper Chainsword 30

Thunderstrike Gauntlet 35

Avenger Gatling Cannon 85

Cannon Laser Destructor 0

Rapid Fire Battlecannon 90

Thermal Cannon 55

Wardog Autocannon 5
Heavy Stubber 2

Ironstorm Missile Pod 16

Meltagun 14

Plasma Decimator 40

Shield Breaker Missiles 15

Stormspear Rocket Pod 45

Thermal Spear 0

Conflagration Cannon 0

Heavy Flamer 14

Thundercoil Harpoon 0

Twin Icarus Autocannon 20

Twin Meltaguns 0

Twin Seigebreakers 35

Volcano Lance 70


Full glacial geek preview here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZu56S6-fUU

This message was edited 16 times. Last update was at 2019/07/09 23:35:16


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




There are some interesting things here BUT this codex totally feels phoned in. Most of it is imperial knights just chaos, with a lot of the same strats and very few actual "chaos" things.

I do like the idea of demonic surge, getting t9 for that cruical early game could be awesome. But again it would be better if it happened beginning of the round and not your turn.

Any idea on cost of codex yet? Definatly doesnt look like its worth 40$...
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Yorkshire

It's up for preoder for $40 or £25. I think it's a vast improvement on the index but doesn't have the most chaos only flavour yet.

Unfortunately I think we'll have to wait for another edition for 3 or 4 truly chaos knights, rather than the 2(ish) new options in the new kit. But at least we can now use them in games and not feel like we're the poor relation.
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





The Eternity Gate

Speculation hat on (we'll see how well this post ages) but on initial view the codex really seems to push for a single knight in a chaos soup army.

Regular knights have the ability to be run pretty pure with several big guys. Chaos knights seem like they are best taken as a teched choice to round out chaos soup. If you need a big bruiser or a dual gat knight that can ignore minuses to hit you can select what you need.

I'm doubting we will see pure chaos knights lists making any top tables but I'm quite sure we will see many winning chaos lists with a single knight attached.

01001000 01100001 01101001 01101100 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01001110 01100101 01100011 01110010 01101111 01101110 00100000 01101111 01110110 01100101 01110010 01101100 01101111 01110010 01100100 01110011 00100001  
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





WA

I sadly completely agree that this was phoned in. So much copy and paste from the IK codex. And no marks, it feels like a let down. They could have done so much more.

That said, it feels like the best option is going to be an aux choice vs full super hea y detachment. I can see running one to help level out an army

The vows are really interesting, wish there were more than 3. But the 3 will let you tailor your list some depending on the lost you are facing and will mean youre looking at a chaos knight and 2 to 3 CP to fully utilize them

 
   
Made in gb
Fully-charged Electropriest






 buddha wrote:


I'm doubting we will see pure chaos knights lists making any top tables but I'm quite sure we will see many winning chaos lists with a single knight attached.


The same could be said for pure imperial knights but 3 in imperial soup is very strong

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/06 20:06:58


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The one advantage i see with a single chaos knight vs imperial is since our "household traits" equal choice a or b then going super auxiliary detachment doesnt prevent getting the "count as double wounds" trait as chaos is a relic instead of a household trait. That may make it ok.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut



Canada

Anyone know what knight combo might be good with a Tsons army?
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





The Eternity Gate

 Ideasweasel wrote:
 buddha wrote:


I'm doubting we will see pure chaos knights lists making any top tables but I'm quite sure we will see many winning chaos lists with a single knight attached.


The same could be said for pure imperial knights but 3 in imperial soup is very strong


True but my prediction is you won't see three chaos knights in soup but you will likely see one.

01001000 01100001 01101001 01101100 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01001110 01100101 01100011 01110010 01101111 01101110 00100000 01101111 01110110 01100101 01110010 01101100 01101111 01110010 01100100 01110011 00100001  
   
Made in gb
Fully-charged Electropriest






Ah got ya. I’m keen to try 3 with Magnus and Morty for a laugh but it’s probably not very viable
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Would very much like to take a knight with my budding Asia legion force to provide anti tank!!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think tsons is where its at with the knights at the moment. Tsons are amazing but their big weakness is no good anti tank. Castellen, armigers, these look like they will nicely mix well with tsons anti infantry stuff.
   
Made in us
Brainy Zoanthrope




Boston, MA

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Ah got ya. I’m keen to try 3 with Magnus and Morty for a laugh but it’s probably not very viable

God that sounds amazing

   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Yorkshire

PUFNSTUF wrote:
Anyone know what knight combo might be good with a Tsons army?


The Castellan could be a useful ally if you want some big time anti tank. With the vow of dominance and with the 4++ relic. I think it has the edge over the imperial version.

A knight with aenger gatling cannon, thermal cannon with stormspear is a decent budget replacement, plus you can take the -to hit relic. 200+ points cheaper.

If you're just wanting to have something to soak fire and run up the board with Ahriman and 2 daemon princes the rampager is cheap, cheerful and potentially very potent. Stick the relic chainsword on it and give it the +1 attack warlord trait for 7 chainsword attacks or 18 stomps and a chainsword attack.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/07 08:37:54


 
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Eaton Rapids, MI

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Ah got ya. I’m keen to try 3 with Magnus and Morty for a laugh but it’s probably not very viable


If you have the points, this would be super viable. Unless you need to be playing top tables, lists with the brothers can just smash in the mid tables. There would be games that would be hard to lose using three knights and Magnus and Morty.

Fly Molo of Dark Future Gaming!
http://darkfuturegaming.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in gb
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Reckon 3 double avenger knights with 60 ish plaguebearers could have a competitive place? Seems to me that super reliable firepower plus good obsec could be pretty decent.

Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights  
   
Made in nl
Hellacious Havoc





I think running 3 Lord Discordants with a Castellan or Valliant might also be something worth while.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle




In My Lab

Can we have a breakdown of what we know in the OP?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Yorkshire

 JNAProductions wrote:
Can we have a breakdown of what we know in the OP?


I'll put together a summary of a decent chunk of what we know, I'll leave the link up for people who want all the detail.
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Here's a fun combo-Sonic the chaos knight

Take a melee knight
Make him an infernal household (demonic hunger)
Make him warlord with Eager for the Kill trait
Give him Quicksilver Throne of Slaanesh
2 CP for Full Tilt

+2 movement
+3 advance
+3 charge
Always fight first
+1 attack in enemy deployment zone

So, your "basic" knight gets a 20+3d6 charge range, always fights first (good if enemy also happens to have this ability) and gets an extra attack if you went all the way inside enemy deployment zone-and you likely will.
A Cerastus type would have 22+4d6 charge range, and honestly that's probably overkill realm.

Its not Sonic the Genestealer, but heck its enough.



Dreadblade options seems also pretty good.
A shooty knight with Knower of Profane Secrets, Forsaken, Warp Fudge is very unlikely to trigger his damnations-and even if he does, he hardly cares. meanwhile he pumps out CPs while alive.

Also, keep in mind that your shooty knight that needs not move-can summon his own bubblewarp.


For the TS, Desecrator with the Diamonas relic watching over some war dogs, probably in an infernal house-this will cover the lack of AT weapons quite well. but will cost a heafty sum of points.
S16 is something that cannot be ignored. even if "only" 3 shots at d6 damage each.


Overall it seems like chaos knights, while lacking in options, can put up a fight to imperials by the fact the few things they have are pretty powerful, and mesh well together.
I mean, despite having so little options you still get spoiled for choice. there are a LOT of strong relics/traits/pact/etc

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

I think chaos knights could be decent, thanks to the combos. Things like death hex will be major advantages.

Basically a dual gat knight that ignores modifiers to hit will do good things. It’s not even all that expensive.

One downside is that it might be your only vehicle. Chaos lists that I see tend to feature either no vehicles, or sometimes a bunch of PBCs. But the lists with lots of FW dreads could potentially benefit from adding one of these guys.
   
Made in gb
Latest Wrack in the Pits





 BoomWolf wrote:

Dreadblade options seems also pretty good.
A shooty knight with Knower of Profane Secrets, Forsaken, Warp Fudge is very unlikely to trigger his damnations-and even if he does, he hardly cares. meanwhile he pumps out CPs while alive.


Profane Secrets only generates a CP on the first battle round unfortunately.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Also, keep in mind that your shooty knight that needs not move-can summon his own bubblewarp.


This is the really powerful part. Being able to summon a screen of brimstones for 30pts on a 4+ on 2d6 is pretty handy. Or a Nurgle Herald for shrivelling pox (-1 to targets toughness) to boost the damage output of those avengers gatling cannons. Or an Infernal Enrapturess for a 24" perils on doubles bubble for some psychic defence. Or flamers for some extra horde clearing. Summoning meshes really well with chaos knights.

Personally, I really like the new codex, it has a lot of flexibility on the fly for tailoring to your matchup.


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Naive questions at this stage pre-codex - did the avenger gatling knight with heavy flamers go up in cost? As near as I can tell the knight base model is the same but the avenger gatling cannons are now 85 a pop with flamers now costing 14, bringing the total cost per wep to 99 - which previously was 89. So a 20 points increase if using 2? If anyone knows please share - otherwise will have to wait for the codex to drop.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2019/06/30/codex-chaos-knights-leak-compilation/

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/08 15:30:13


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Interesting. The gatling is probably under-costed, so it makes sense. I wonder if they'll do this for Imperial Knights too.

It could also just be a typo of course.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




But battle canon and thermal canon are cheaper than imperial it's may be just to make the double gatling harder to take.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




The Void

How will these cheaper Knights compare to the Kytan? It's also fairly cheap for a super heavy, but it has Daemon and so can use some nice buffs and strats.

You can of course do both. We could always warptime a Kytan for a 1st turn charge. Couple that with one of those above speed builds and it'll get crazy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/08 18:36:43


Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Yorkshire

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
How will these cheaper Knights compare to the Kytan? It's also fairly cheap for a super heavy, but it has Daemon and so can use some nice buffs and strats.

You can of course do both. We could always warptime a Kytan for a 1st turn charge. Couple that with one of those above speed builds and it'll get crazy.


I think with knights you buff them with stratergems rather than using psykers or lord discordants, which are all additional points. So if you have the CP I think knights have the edge. Kytan and sorcerer, 508 points. Knight with thermal spear, chainsword and stormspear rockets 510 points. Similar mele, knight weapons are d6 damage vs 2, has more wounds and better stratergems. Only edge kytan has is 5++ in melee.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




The Void

 small_gods wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
How will these cheaper Knights compare to the Kytan? It's also fairly cheap for a super heavy, but it has Daemon and so can use some nice buffs and strats.

You can of course do both. We could always warptime a Kytan for a 1st turn charge. Couple that with one of those above speed builds and it'll get crazy.


I think with knights you buff them with stratergems rather than using psykers or lord discordants, which are all additional points. So if you have the CP I think knights have the edge. Kytan and sorcerer, 508 points. Knight with thermal spear, chainsword and stormspear rockets 510 points. Similar mele, knight weapons are d6 damage vs 2, has more wounds and better stratergems. Only edge kytan has is 5++ in melee.


In a vacuum, sure. But it's not entirely right to add the cost of the buffing unit to the cost of the Kytan because you'll be taking other units in your army anyway. For example, the Kytan can benefit from HQ auras, and your gonna need to have those in your other detachments. If you're running a Prince, Disco, or Greater Possessed for other reasons, the Kytan gets a lot stronger.

And even if we don't count buffs from other units, it gets some nice strats too. Daemonforge is only 1 CP and gives re-roll all hit and wound rolls, and can be used in both Shooting and Fight phase. And depending on the Legion, it may be able to use the Legion strat (Iron Within, Iron Without especially notable.) The Kytan has less variety of strats, but may still end up with the edge.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in nl
Hellacious Havoc





How do people feel towards infernal Castellans? I feel like their damage potential is really high. The ability to reroll hits, ones to wound and have s9 plasma cannons with 3 flat damage seems crazy. Sure its expensive but it can dish out a sick ton of pain.
   
Made in ca
Morphing Obliterator





The Frozen North

 Barnie25 wrote:
How do people feel towards infernal Castellans? I feel like their damage potential is really high. The ability to reroll hits, ones to wound and have s9 plasma cannons with 3 flat damage seems crazy. Sure its expensive but it can dish out a sick ton of pain.

Vows are for Iconoclast Knights only, so you can't have both a S9 Plasma Cannon and be rerolling 1s to wound.

That said, the Infernal Tyrant is completely blown out of the water by the House Raven Castellan. With Cawl's Wrath their Plasma Cannon is also S9, D3 (and with AP-4 to boot), and they can reroll failed hit rolls of 1, wound rolls of 1, damage rolls of 1, and random shot rolls of 1. Chaos Tyrants don't hold a candle to that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/08 20:48:38


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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
 
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