When to use Daemonic Fortitude? When using it hurts you less than not using it! I.e when being T9 reduces more damage than the mortal wounds you take from daemon surge.
The first number represents selecting Daemonic Fortitude (taking d3 mortal wounds) and the second number represents getting Daemonic Fortitude randomly (taking 1 mortal wound).
On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.7/3.85 BS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D6 damage shooting attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/3*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/2*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7
On average you need to be targeted by at least 6/3 BS3+ S8 AP-2 D6 damage melta shooting attacks for a chosen Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/3*2/3*4.47)) = 6
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/2*2/3*4.47)) = 6
On average you need to be targeted by at least 13.5/6.75 WS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*2)-(2/3/3*2/3*2)) = 13.5
On average you need to be targeted by at least 10.8/5.4 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*2)-(2/3/3*5/6*2)) = 10.8
On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.2/3.6 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*3)-(2/3/3*5/6*3)) = 7.2
So as a rule of thumb, daemonic fortitude only affects S8-9 weapons (going to ignore S16 as it's relatively rare). The more damage the weapon does the more effective it is. The worse your save is the more effective it is. Only use it if you know your opponent will fire the above number or more shots into your knight. You can work out how many shots your opponent has to shoot into 2 of your knights for daemonic fortitude to be break even by doubling the number. So if you had two knights then your opponent would need to fire a total of 7.7*2 = 15.4 lascannons/darklances at those knights for you to break even if they were both affected by daemonic fortitude.
Mushkilla wrote: When to use Daemonic Fortitude? When using it hurts you less than not using it! I.e when being T9 reduces more damage than the mortal wounds you take from daemon surge.
The first number represents selecting Daemonic Fortitude (taking d3 mortal wounds) and the second number represents getting Daemonic Fortitude randomly (taking 1 mortal wound).
On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.7/3.85 BS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D6 damage shooting attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/3*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/2*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7
On average you need to be targeted by at least 6/3 BS3+ S8 AP-2 D6 damage melta shooting attacks for a chosen Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/3*2/3*4.47)) = 6
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/2*2/3*4.47)) = 6
On average you need to be targeted by at least 13.5/6.75 WS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*2)-(2/3/3*2/3*2)) = 13.5
On average you need to be targeted by at least 10.8/5.4 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*2)-(2/3/3*5/6*2)) = 10.8
On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.2/3.6 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*3)-(2/3/3*5/6*3)) = 7.2
So as a rule of thumb, daemonic fortitude only affects S8-9 weapons (going to ignore S16 as it's relatively rare). The more damage the weapon does the more effective it is. The worse your save is the more effective it is. Only use it if you know your opponent will fire the above number or more shots into your knight. You can work out how many shots your opponent has to shoot into 2 of your knights for daemonic fortitude to be break even by doubling the number. So if you had two knights then your opponent would need to fire a total of 7.7*2 = 15.4 lascannons/darklances at those knights for you to break even if they were both affected by daemonic fortitude.
Hope that's useful.
Interesting, that’s I higher number of shots then I expected. Having played against infernal knight recently, the mortal wounds from the trait add up. Remember it’s a smite amount of mortal wounds every time you want to pick a benefit. Iconclast just seems like the better overall choice for me.
Interesting, that’s I higher number of shots then I expected. Having played against infernal knight recently, the mortal wounds from the trait add up. Remember it’s a smite amount of mortal wounds every time you want to pick a benefit. Iconclast just seems like the better overall choice for me.
Yeah, it wasn't what I expected either. I thought it might be off compared to what we think it would intuitively be. But basically outside of large amounts of anti tank fire that you can guarantee going into the knight that has daemonic fortitude you shouldn't pick it. On the other hand if you get it randomly it's quite good. The ideal situation, is if your knight is in a position where it can benefit from all three effects (an extra 2" movement lets your heavy flamers shoot, an extra 3" makes a charge you want to do more reliable, extra damage vs a vehicle isn't crucial but will still help, and you are going to get shot by 3-4 lascannons/melta). Whilst also being a situation where daemonic power (+1S +1D to a ranged weapon) isn't worth d3 mortals (cause when it is you should probably pick it).
Another thing worth noting is it's better if your opponents has re-roll to hits.
On average you need to be targeted by at least 5.78/2.89 BS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D6 damage shooting attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((8/9/2*2/3*3.5)-(8/9/3*2/3*3.5)) = 5.78
And better if your opponent has re-roll to wounds:
On average you need to be targeted by at least 6.61/3.3 BS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D6 damage shooting attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3*(1/2+1/2*1/2)*2/3*3.5)-(2/3*(1/3+2/3*1/3)*2/3*3.5)) = 6.61
Intuitively I thought it would be less efficient against re-roll to wound.
EDIT: Doom/Guide (hits and wounds)
On average you need to be targeted by at least 4.95/2.47 BS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D6 damage shooting attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((8/9*(1/2+1/2*1/2)*2/3*3.5)-(8/9*(1/3+2/3*1/3)*2/3*3.5)) = 4.95
So 1+ crimson hunter exarchs... Problem is they will just target the knight that you didn't daemonic surge. I guess if it was the only knight they could doom?
ballzonya wrote: Looking to add a knight to my chaos daemons list. any recommendations for a loud-out I run Khorne daemons.
and Do I really have to buy two knights to get all the weapon options?
For weapons options, you can find some weapon arms from third-party dealers like Taro Model Maker or Bitzbox. Much cheaper than buying two knight kits.
For load-out, I'd look at some ranged stuff if you are mostly running melee to pick out targets that you can't reach with melee turn one. Consider to yourself whether you need more anti-horde, anti small vehicle, or anti tank/heavy vehicle. That will dictate what kind of load-out you go for. There are also points to consider, as a 25-40 point difference can mean you can afford the knight or you can't.
ballzonya wrote: Looking to add a knight to my chaos daemons list. any recommendations for a loud-out I run Khorne daemons.
and Do I really have to buy two knights to get all the weapon options?
Only if you want to run double weapons. If you buy the crusader you get one of every weapon.
If you're running khorne you definately want a shooty knight. Thermal, avenger gatling and some carapace missiles is a good bet. If you take just one knight then you don't get the household ambition. Iconoclast is still probably the best as it has more universal strategems and relics.
You can pick relics, warlord traits and dreadblade pacts and damnations when you see your opponent.
If you pick up two armigers or two of the new Moirax as well then you'll have 3cp and benifit from the ambition also which works well with the warglaives.
If running 2 shooty Rampagers is it best to take weapons in pairs i.e. 1 twin gat, one twin thermal, or should we go the Loyalist Crusader route to split target priority? It seems easy for an opponent to pick out your anti armor/infantry and there goes half your list.
The list I'm building towards (i just need a twin battle cannon knight):
1 Knight despoiler with twin battle cannons and a stormspear rocket pod
2 knight rampagers
2 wardogs with autocannons and stubbers
2 wardogs with thermal spears and melta guns
I've played it once and loved it. Took on and defeated a shooty chaos list my buddies built that had a twin gatling cannon knight, a dual melta knight, an autocannon wardog, and a spearhead of autocannon havoks, obliterators, and melta chosen.
In the end I had one rampager and my two autocannon havoks left. It felt like a fair game overall.
Rampagers are amazing. One got into combat wiht the dual gatling cannon knight and absolutely destroyed it. Iconoclast household rampagers are the bees knees.
The verbiage of this stratagem states that an unmodified roll of 1, 2, or 3 always fails irrespective of any abilities on the weapon or model. I interpret this to mean rerolls to wound are not allowed either. Which I do understand rerolls to wound is not a modifier, however it IS an ability, and the wording of the strat covers both.
Hypothetical example, A shadowsword shoots its Volcano Cannon at my knight and scores one hit.
He then rolls a 3 to wound.
My position is that he cannot then say "My volcano cannon has an ability that allows me to reroll failed wounds against Titanics."
This would be utilizing an ability on the weapon/model, which the strat specifically says the roll of 3 always fails irrespective of any abilities on the weapon/model.
Am I correct? If not, where is the flaw in my logic?
The question here comes down to rerolls happening before modifiers. If the 3 would have been a successful wound before modifiers then no he would not be allowed to reroll vs your knight . It would be no different than if it said -1 to wound which would turn a 3 (successful wound) into a 2 (unsuccessful wound).
Now if the weapon said reroll wounds he could still do it as again rerolls happen before ANY modifiers including your "1/2/3 doesnt wound". Thats because reroll wounds means he can reroll successfull wounds as well with that wording (not that most people would unless they were fishing for 6's for some other reason). Saying reroll failed wounds (which is how most things are worded) he is sol.
Azuza001 wrote: The question here comes down to rerolls happening before modifiers. If the 3 would have been a successful wound before modifiers then no he would not be allowed to reroll vs your knight . It would be no different than if it said -1 to wound which would turn a 3 (successful wound) into a 2 (unsuccessful wound).
Now if the weapon said reroll wounds he could still do it as again rerolls happen before ANY modifiers including your "1/2/3 doesnt wound". Thats because reroll wounds means he can reroll successfull wounds as well with that wording (not that most people would unless they were fishing for 6's for some other reason). Saying reroll failed wounds (which is how most things are worded) he is sol.
In my Shadowsword example, the volcano cannon rule does say "reroll FAILED wounds"
But the distinction that I'm trying to make here, is that it doesn't matter what order modifiers and rerolls happen, because they are both disallowed per the wording of the strat.
Where is the reroll coming from? An ability on the weapon.
The roll of 3 always fails irrespective of any abilities on the weapon.
Azuza001 wrote: The question here comes down to rerolls happening before modifiers. If the 3 would have been a successful wound before modifiers then no he would not be allowed to reroll vs your knight . It would be no different than if it said -1 to wound which would turn a 3 (successful wound) into a 2 (unsuccessful wound).
Now if the weapon said reroll wounds he could still do it as again rerolls happen before ANY modifiers including your "1/2/3 doesnt wound". Thats because reroll wounds means he can reroll successfull wounds as well with that wording (not that most people would unless they were fishing for 6's for some other reason). Saying reroll failed wounds (which is how most things are worded) he is sol.
In my Shadowsword example, the volcano cannon rule does say "reroll FAILED wounds"
But the distinction that I'm trying to make here, is that it doesn't matter what order modifiers and rerolls happen, because they are both disallowed per the wording of the strat.
Where is the reroll coming from? An ability on the weapon.
The roll of 3 always fails irrespective of any abilities on the weapon.
I'm very interested in the groups interpretation of this, I'm playing in a narrative campaign where my Iconoclast House Rampager will be going up against an IG Shadowsword
Mushkilla wrote: When to use Daemonic Fortitude? When using it hurts you less than not using it! I.e when being T9 reduces more damage than the mortal wounds you take from daemon surge.
The first number represents selecting Daemonic Fortitude (taking d3 mortal wounds) and the second number represents getting Daemonic Fortitude randomly (taking 1 mortal wound).
On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.7/3.85 BS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D6 damage shooting attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/3*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/2*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7
On average you need to be targeted by at least 6/3 BS3+ S8 AP-2 D6 damage melta shooting attacks for a chosen Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/3*2/3*4.47)) = 6
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/2*2/3*4.47)) = 6
On average you need to be targeted by at least 13.5/6.75 WS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*2)-(2/3/3*2/3*2)) = 13.5
On average you need to be targeted by at least 10.8/5.4 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*2)-(2/3/3*5/6*2)) = 10.8
On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.2/3.6 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*3)-(2/3/3*5/6*3)) = 7.2
So as a rule of thumb, daemonic fortitude only affects S8-9 weapons (going to ignore S16 as it's relatively rare). The more damage the weapon does the more effective it is. The worse your save is the more effective it is. Only use it if you know your opponent will fire the above number or more shots into your knight. You can work out how many shots your opponent has to shoot into 2 of your knights for daemonic fortitude to be break even by doubling the number. So if you had two knights then your opponent would need to fire a total of 7.7*2 = 15.4 lascannons/darklances at those knights for you to break even if they were both affected by daemonic fortitude.
Hope that's useful.
Ehh - not sure how useful this is. Against str 8 weapons you take 33% less damage and vs str 9 you take 25% less damage. Anti tank is typically pretty swingy. I don't think you should ever chose the T9 - it's not terrible to get if they have lascannons or rockets on a random roll.
I do not agree with that interpretation. Order of events is important. Rerolls happen before modifiers. The ability says that unmodified 1,2, and 3's always fail. It doesn't say you can't reroll 1, 2's, or 3's. Its talking about a dice roll that is modified to a different number still counts as failed as well as rolls that would normally count now fail. No where does it say you can't reroll said numbers if they are rolled. Trying to argue otherwise would not be right. Thats like saying you can't reroll 1's because 1's always fail which we all know is not how the game works.
The ability is a good one. Actually a really great one if you know your going to fight an opponent that will run multiple weapon options that are str 9 or higher or an opponent that has a way to modify failed hits to count. But it doesn't stop players from rerolling 1's, 2's, or 3's to wound. It makes 1's, 2's, and 3's always count as a fail no matter if a modifier or a natural roll would count as a wound.
Yeah I agree with this, I would say that since it counts as a fail, you get to re-roll it because you get to re-roll fails. It’s not a modifier, it’s an ability and the only restriction from the Knight’s ability is that <4 counts as a fail. Same as if something caused mortal wounds or had other effects.
I think Vow of Dominance really helps out against blood angels smash captains and librarian dreadnoughts. They won't get the benifit from red thirst so are much less efficient. Also skullreaver prince, abberants with improvised weapons and other mele knights are going to be made less effective. Knights are tough vs almost all shooting it's the mele beasts that are knights biggest problem.
Mushkilla wrote: When to use Daemonic Fortitude? When using it hurts you less than not using it! I.e when being T9 reduces more damage than the mortal wounds you take from daemon surge.
The first number represents selecting Daemonic Fortitude (taking d3 mortal wounds) and the second number represents getting Daemonic Fortitude randomly (taking 1 mortal wound).
On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.7/3.85 BS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D6 damage shooting attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/3*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/2*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7
On average you need to be targeted by at least 6/3 BS3+ S8 AP-2 D6 damage melta shooting attacks for a chosen Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/3*2/3*4.47)) = 6
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/2*2/3*4.47)) = 6
On average you need to be targeted by at least 13.5/6.75 WS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*2)-(2/3/3*2/3*2)) = 13.5
On average you need to be targeted by at least 10.8/5.4 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*2)-(2/3/3*5/6*2)) = 10.8
On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.2/3.6 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*3)-(2/3/3*5/6*3)) = 7.2
So as a rule of thumb, daemonic fortitude only affects S8-9 weapons (going to ignore S16 as it's relatively rare). The more damage the weapon does the more effective it is. The worse your save is the more effective it is. Only use it if you know your opponent will fire the above number or more shots into your knight. You can work out how many shots your opponent has to shoot into 2 of your knights for daemonic fortitude to be break even by doubling the number. So if you had two knights then your opponent would need to fire a total of 7.7*2 = 15.4 lascannons/darklances at those knights for you to break even if they were both affected by daemonic fortitude.
Hope that's useful.
Ehh - not sure how useful this is. Against str 8 weapons you take 33% less damage and vs str 9 you take 25% less damage. Anti tank is typically pretty swingy. I don't think you should ever chose the T9 - it's not terrible to get if they have lascannons or rockets on a random roll.
The counter intuitive part is we are interested in linear damage output. Once we have reduced average damage by 2. Then it becomes worthwhile. Linear damage reduction of going from wounding 2/3 -> 1/2, 1/2 -> 1/3, 5/6 -> 2/3 are all 1/6. So what determines whether Daemonic fortitude is worth doing is the same for S8, S9 and S16 as long as the rest of the profiles are the same.
So S8, S9 S16 AP-2 d6 damage weapon all require and average of 7.7 shots for deamonic Fortitude to be worthwhile.
I'm hoping there's something terribly wrong with my maths. But so far I can't see it.
Azuza001 wrote: I do not agree with that interpretation. Order of events is important. Rerolls happen before modifiers. The ability says that unmodified 1,2, and 3's always fail. It doesn't say you can't reroll 1, 2's, or 3's.
You are correct that VoD does not say you can't reroll 1s 2s and 3s to wound. But it does say IRRESPECTIVE OF ABILITIES ON THE WEAPON OR MODEL. It matters WHERE you are getting your ability to reroll from because the rule says so.
In the example I gave with the Shadowsword shooting the Knight, the reroll to wound comes from an ability on the weapon. It is under the volcano cannon's 'Abilities' section under its weapon profile.
I will quote the relevant text in the stratagem again, verbatim:
"an unmodified wound roll of 1 2 or 3 always fails, irrespective of ANY ABILITIES that the weapon or the model that made that attack may have."
This verbiage contains very broad and absolute terms, such as always and any. The first part of the sentence establishes that no modifiers may be considered by using the word "unmodified". The second part of the sentence, after the comma, disqualifies ANY ABILITIES. If you invoke a reroll to wound that came from an ability on your weapon, it seems quite clear to me that is violating the second part of Vow of Dominance.
What I am looking for is a logical and direct answer to the question:
How does a volcano cannon's ability circumvent the rules in Vow of Dominance stating that any abilities on the weapon are irrespected?
Azuza001 wrote: I do not agree with that interpretation. Order of events is important. Rerolls happen before modifiers. The ability says that unmodified 1,2, and 3's always fail. It doesn't say you can't reroll 1, 2's, or 3's.
You are correct that VoD does not say you can't reroll 1s 2s and 3s to wound. But it does say IRRESPECTIVE OF ABILITIES ON THE WEAPON OR MODEL. It matters WHERE you are getting your ability to reroll from because the rule says so.
In the example I gave with the Shadowsword shooting the Knight, the reroll to wound comes from an ability on the weapon. It is under the volcano cannon's 'Abilities' section under its weapon profile.
I will quote the relevant text in the stratagem again, verbatim:
"an unmodified wound roll of 1 2 or 3 always fails, irrespective of ANY ABILITIES that the weapon or the model that made that attack may have."
This verbiage contains very broad and absolute terms, such as always and any. The first part of the sentence establishes that no modifiers may be considered by using the word "unmodified". The second part of the sentence, after the comma, disqualifies ANY ABILITIES. If you invoke a reroll to wound that came from an ability on your weapon, it seems quite clear to me that is violating the second part of Vow of Dominance.
What I am looking for is a logical and direct answer to the question:
How does a volcano cannon's ability circumvent the rules in Vow of Dominance stating that any abilities on the weapon are irrespected?
Because it doesn't say "They fail and cannot be rerolled," it says "They fail."
JNAProductions wrote: Because it doesn't say "They fail and cannot be rerolled," it says "They fail."
But where are you getting the reroll from?
A weapon's ability, yes. But it doesn't say "Ignore all weapon abilities," it says "Wounds rolls of 1, 2, and 3 fail regardless of anything to the contrary."
Edit: If you're going to a tournament, ask your TO how they're gonna rule.
If you're playing in a friendly game, ask your opponent how they'd like to rule, and if you insist on your ruling, roll off if you can't agree.
The vow says the roll fails.
Not that there is no reroll
Not that effects that do not require a success can't trigger.
It just says it fails.
So if your weapon has an ability that says it always wounds on a 2+,it would still fail at a 2 or 3.
But if it has an ability that deals an extra mortsl wound on a 3+,that still works, because it didn't care if you succeeded or not.
Rerolling is a step further. It triggers WHEN YOU FAIL.
By the logic you are pushing you can't reroll 1s when rerolling failed rolls as a 1 always fails.
JNAProductions wrote: Because it doesn't say "They fail and cannot be rerolled," it says "They fail."
But where are you getting the reroll from?
A weapon's ability, yes. But it doesn't say "Ignore all weapon abilities," it says "Wounds rolls of 1, 2, and 3 fail regardless of anything to the contrary."
No, it does not say that. I literally quoted the exact words verbatim a couple posts above. It says those rolls ALWAYS fail irrespective of ANY abilities on the weapon or model.
If you have rerolled these wounds using an ability on the weapon, you are obviously paying respect / regarding / acknowledging / utilizing an ability on the weapon or model.... Whatever synonym you want to use.
At this point I almost feel like I'm being trolled! Lol.. Luckily I am a Tau player and have no vested interest either way but it's good to be informed about these kinds of things.
Mushkilla wrote: When to use Daemonic Fortitude? When using it hurts you less than not using it! I.e when being T9 reduces more damage than the mortal wounds you take from daemon surge.
The first number represents selecting Daemonic Fortitude (taking d3 mortal wounds) and the second number represents getting Daemonic Fortitude randomly (taking 1 mortal wound).
On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.7/3.85 BS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D6 damage shooting attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/3*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/2*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7
On average you need to be targeted by at least 6/3 BS3+ S8 AP-2 D6 damage melta shooting attacks for a chosen Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/3*2/3*4.47)) = 6
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/2*2/3*4.47)) = 6
On average you need to be targeted by at least 13.5/6.75 WS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*2)-(2/3/3*2/3*2)) = 13.5
On average you need to be targeted by at least 10.8/5.4 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*2)-(2/3/3*5/6*2)) = 10.8
On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.2/3.6 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*3)-(2/3/3*5/6*3)) = 7.2
So as a rule of thumb, daemonic fortitude only affects S8-9 weapons (going to ignore S16 as it's relatively rare). The more damage the weapon does the more effective it is. The worse your save is the more effective it is. Only use it if you know your opponent will fire the above number or more shots into your knight. You can work out how many shots your opponent has to shoot into 2 of your knights for daemonic fortitude to be break even by doubling the number. So if you had two knights then your opponent would need to fire a total of 7.7*2 = 15.4 lascannons/darklances at those knights for you to break even if they were both affected by daemonic fortitude.
Hope that's useful.
Ehh - not sure how useful this is. Against str 8 weapons you take 33% less damage and vs str 9 you take 25% less damage. Anti tank is typically pretty swingy. I don't think you should ever chose the T9 - it's not terrible to get if they have lascannons or rockets on a random roll.
The counter intuitive part is we are interested in linear damage output. Once we have reduced average damage by 2. Then it becomes worthwhile. Linear damage reduction of going from wounding 2/3 -> 1/2, 1/2 -> 1/3, 5/6 -> 2/3 are all 1/6. So what determines whether Daemonic fortitude is worth doing is the same for S8, S9 and S16 as long as the rest of the profiles are the same.
So S8, S9 S16 AP-2 d6 damage weapon all require and average of 7.7 shots for deamonic Fortitude to be worthwhile.
I'm hoping there's something terribly wrong with my maths. But so far I can't see it.
I don't think there is a problem with the math. A lot of the math has nothing to do with toughness though. The thing that is a little misleading is 8ish rockets averaging 2 damage. Most armies are buffing their shooting to hit at least and knights take priority shooting because they are a powerful model. I think in actual gamepaly going to t9 is going to be enough to keep your knight alive in many ways. #1 they might choose to shoot something else. #2 If they are rerolling all hits the damage reduction from T9 becomes a lot more significant. Also things like a command point reroll can really throw off this math. If they only get 1 wound through with a rocket they average 3.5 damage - that is another misleading thing. You might be comfortable looking at the math when being shot by 7+ rockets. But you know there are a lot of possibile outcomes that have your knight taking 10+ damage from that much firepower.
The vow says the roll fails.
Not that there is no reroll
Not that effects that do not require a success can't trigger.
It just says it fails.
So if your weapon has an ability that says it always wounds on a 2+,it would still fail at a 2 or 3.
But if it has an ability that deals an extra mortsl wound on a 3+,that still works, because it didn't care if you succeeded or not.
Rerolling is a step further. It triggers WHEN YOU FAIL.
By the logic you are pushing you can't reroll 1s when rerolling failed rolls as a 1 always fails.
This isn't a -1 to hit situation. The way that works is you can't reroll a success if it says reroll failed hits. Bs3+ rolls a 3 to hit - would be a success because 3's hit is then modified to a 2 after the check for reroll is made. That is not the situation here. It is just changing the reuqired wound number. So a 3 fails for a lascannon against your knight. If they can reroll all wounds they can reroll the wound.
Guys you are missing my entire point here. I am not saying that VOD prevents rerolls to wound. I am saying that it prevents ABILITIES GRANTED BY THE WEAPON/MODEL that is making the attack in regards to rolling a 1 2 or 3 to wound. This is the literal interpretation of the words in the rule.
There are plenty of examples where you can reroll wounds against VoD.
And each example is something that is NOT on the weapon or model that made the attack because that is basically prohibited in the rule.
Example 1: A Farseer casts Doom on the knight and Dark Reapers shoot missiles at it. They may enjoy full rerolls to wound because the ability came from the Farseer who is not making the attack, the Dark Reapers are. No Violation
Example 2 : My volcano cannon rolled a 3 to wound. I can use a Command Reroll strat to reroll this wound roll, it is not an ability on the weapon or model that made the attack. It came from a universal stratagem, No violation
Example 3 : My volcano cannon rolled a 3 to wound. I cannot use the ability of the volcano cannon to reroll to wound because this is from an ability on the weapon or model that made the attack and would be violation of the VOD rules
JNAProductions wrote: So, if I have a weapon that gives Mortal Wounds on a wound roll of 2+, what happens if I roll a 3 to-wound against the Vow of Dominance Knight?
The mortal would trigger but the regular attack would fail to wound
slobulous wrote: Guys you are missing my entire point here. I am not saying that VOD prevents rerolls to wound. I am saying that it prevents ABILITIES GRANTED BY THE WEAPON/MODEL that is making the attack in regards to rolling a 1 2 or 3 to wound. This is the literal interpretation of the words in the rule.
There are plenty of examples where you can reroll wounds against VoD.
And each example is something that is NOT on the weapon or model that made the attack because that is basically prohibited in the rule.
Example 1: A Farseer casts Doom on the knight and Dark Reapers shoot missiles at it. They may enjoy full rerolls to wound because the ability came from the Farseer who is not making the attack, the Dark Reapers are. No Violation
Example 2 : My volcano cannon rolled a 3 to wound. I can use a Command Reroll strat to reroll this wound roll, it is not an ability on the weapon or model that made the attack. It came from a universal stratagem, No violation
Example 3 : My volcano cannon rolled a 3 to wound. I cannot use the ability of the volcano cannon to reroll to wound because this is from an ability on the weapon or model that made the attack and would be violation of the VOD rules
Okay I understand what you are saying now. Still disagree though. the wording is always fail regardless of weapons abilities. You roll a 3 to wound with a volcano lance - it fails where it would have been successful without the VOD rule. Always fail does not mean you can't reroll. All that does is make a weapon like a wychblade which would every on a 2+ - that weapon becomes a 4+ to wound weapon against VOD.
Okay I understand what you are saying now. Still disagree though. the wording is always fail regardless of weapons abilities. You roll a 3 to wound with a volcano lance - it fails where it would have been successful without the VOD rule. Always fail does not mean you can't reroll. All that does is make a weapon like a wychblade which would every on a 2+ - that weapon becomes a 4+ to wound weapon against VOD.
Right, always fail does not mean you can't reroll. However that's not the part of the rule in question. It's the next part, immediately after "always fails". I have quoted this section of the VoD rules ad nauseum in prior posts.
This part of the rule means you can't factor in any abilities on the weapon/model that made the attack when determining the wound roll result. Any abilities would include abilities that give rerolls to wound, such as in the case of the volcano cannon as demonstrated in my examples.
Once this criteria of 'Not being an ability on the weapon/model that made the attack' is met, you can reroll your heart out.
We can move this to YMTC is this doesn't seem to be resolved here.
"an unmodified wound roll of 1 2 or 3 always fails, irrespective of ANY ABILITIES that the weapon or the model that made that attack may have."
The rule doesn't stat that you can't use weapon abilities. It just says that regardless of weapons abilities 1-2-3 always fail regardless of weapon abilities. Rerolls allow you to reroll a failed wound are still allowed. The only thing this rule can do is make a successful hit a failure that is a 1-2-3. It can't stop you from rerolling a 3 into a 4. It also explicitly overrides weapon abilities to wound on a flat number.
Until the end of the battle, when resolving an
attack made against that model, an unmodified wound roll of 1,
2 or 3 always fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon
or the model making that attack may have
That last part that your hung up on is directly talking to the first part and the 1st part only. you cant use that to shut down all abilities on the model. Its talking about weapons or abilities that auto wound on a 2+ or 3+ or add to the roll (+1 to wound rolls) are still counted as a fail. If the weapon or model has an ability that has nothing to do with the wound counting as a success then it does not shut it down. What your suggesting is that if the wound roll was a fail this ability would also shut it down.
So a 3 that would start off as a fail then using a weapons ability (farseers spear that wounds on a 2+) or a model that gives a bonus (blood angels +1 to wound) which would make that 3 a wound doesnt because then the vow says that it doesn't. If the roll was a 1 however a unit that can reroll failed wounds can still reroll because the 1 was a fail and the ability that triggers only does so if a failed would become a success due to a modifier from some source. it does not stop failed wounds from rerolls because, again, order of operations, rerolls happen before modifiers. You dont get to use the vow (which is a modifier) to stop the reroll because by the time the vow hits the reroll already happened.
HOWEVER this does mean the following as well. A unit that can reroll failed wounds that also would wound on a natural 3 like say a lascannon with the ability to reroll failed wounds would not be allowed to reroll that 3 because the natural 3 is a successful wound until after the reroll phase.
You can keep trying to change our minds on this but i see a few things. You said you wanted our opinion, we gave it to you and everyone seems to agree other than you on what this means. Also you say you dont play chaos knights. So what is your point on this exactly?
As part of a chaos soup list I'm planning to take a single dual gat despoiler (original I know). My question is on the gear and setup if anyone has has any thoughts on my build. It is for a very competitive environment.
Despoiler: Ironclast
Weapons: Dual Gats
Relic: Helm of Warpsight or the Veil (honestly can't decide)
Warlord Trait: Warp Haunted Hull
Strategem: Vow of Dominance
buddha wrote: As part of a chaos soup list I'm planning to take a single dual gat despoiler (original I know). My question is on the gear and setup if anyone has has any thoughts on my build. It is for a very competitive environment.
Despoiler: Ironclast
Weapons: Dual Gats
Relic: Helm of Warpsight or the Veil (honestly can't decide)
Warlord Trait: Warp Haunted Hull
Strategem: Vow of Dominance
If you want a good answer you need to share the rest of your list as well as provide the ruleset you will be playing on.
I've used the list I posted last page twice, which has two of them, and they have been absolutely fantastic both games. The destroy everything they have come into contact with.
For one of them I've run the vow of dominance (which is the best 2cp stat in the game!), knight diabolis (+1 attack), and the quicksilver thrown of slaanesh for +1 to advance and charge rolls and always fighting first in combat. I also run iconoclast house rules. This guy can't only be wounded on 4s, has 7 attacks with a big weapon or 21 stomps in the first round of combat and always fights first (barring some exceptions). He's an absolute monster.
Love love love the rampagers so far! A list I want to try soon is dual rampagers and dual tyrants of the valiant variety for maximum carnage. Not the most competitive, but should be a blast to play.
buddha wrote: As part of a chaos soup list I'm planning to take a single dual gat despoiler (original I know). My question is on the gear and setup if anyone has has any thoughts on my build. It is for a very competitive environment.
Despoiler: Ironclast
Weapons: Dual Gats
Relic: Helm of Warpsight or the Veil (honestly can't decide)
Warlord Trait: Warp Haunted Hull
Strategem: Vow of Dominance
Do you have to pick relics and warlord traits ahead of time due to tournament rules? If not, being able to pick them based on what threats you find across from you is one of the stronger Knight advantages. The Helm of Warpsight won't help you much against Khorne demons for example.
Hello all I have a question I'm interested in maxamizing my chaos knight kits, whats the best way without buying 3 or 4 that I can make a THermal and Gatling knight and a close combat knight?
ballzonya wrote: Hello all I have a question I'm interested in maxamizing my chaos knight kits, whats the best way without buying 3 or 4 that I can make a THermal and Gatling knight and a close combat knight?
Knight Crusader kit. Comes with one of each gun and melee weapon.
I've used the list I posted last page twice, which has two of them, and they have been absolutely fantastic both games. The destroy everything they have come into contact with.
For one of them I've run the vow of dominance (which is the best 2cp stat in the game!), knight diabolis (+1 attack), and the quicksilver thrown of slaanesh for +1 to advance and charge rolls and always fighting first in combat. I also run iconoclast house rules. This guy can't only be wounded on 4s, has 7 attacks with a big weapon or 21 stomps in the first round of combat and always fights first (barring some exceptions). He's an absolute monster.
Love love love the rampagers so far! A list I want to try soon is dual rampagers and dual tyrants of the valiant variety for maximum carnage. Not the most competitive, but should be a blast to play.
but....you can have same setup for less point with a despoiler, you pay more points for just extra attacks at 6+ (sometimes can happen sometimes not), despoiler if needed can bring a missile pod too and have same stats.
I've used the list I posted last page twice, which has two of them, and they have been absolutely fantastic both games. The destroy everything they have come into contact with.
For one of them I've run the vow of dominance (which is the best 2cp stat in the game!), knight diabolis (+1 attack), and the quicksilver thrown of slaanesh for +1 to advance and charge rolls and always fighting first in combat. I also run iconoclast house rules. This guy can't only be wounded on 4s, has 7 attacks with a big weapon or 21 stomps in the first round of combat and always fights first (barring some exceptions). He's an absolute monster.
Love love love the rampagers so far! A list I want to try soon is dual rampagers and dual tyrants of the valiant variety for maximum carnage. Not the most competitive, but should be a blast to play.
but....you can have same setup for less point with a despoiler, you pay more points for just extra attacks at 6+ (sometimes can happen sometimes not), despoiler if needed can bring a missile pod too and have same stats.
The points difference is minimal, and the the exploding hits on 6s is golden when the knight is in lower brackets. Using the chainsword, with AP-4 in the first round of combat, with all the extra attacks has been great in taking out knights, repulsors, other tanks, and obliterators.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just looked up the difference between a choppy despoiler and a rampager....its 15 points. There is basically no point difference. For 15 points the rampager gets exploding 6s with its big weapons. Excellent.
I'm assuming that as all the datasheets have different names to those in Index: Renegade Knights that this codex doesn't actually replace the index. Not that you'd want to use the index anymore, but that is the case isn't it?
Ok thanks that makes sense.
I'm picking up a CK detachment so just catching up.
I really like how this book seems to have more ranged power and is more customizable right before the game begins.
I Think I'm gonna start with a couple wardog moirax and then an infernal despoiler with AGC, TC/HF, SSRP. It seems to be one of the more lethal while still generalist configurations.
dominuschao wrote: Ok thanks that makes sense.
I'm picking up a CK detachment so just catching up.
I really like how this book seems to have more ranged power and is more customizable right before the game begins.
I Think I'm gonna start with a couple wardog moirax and then an infernal despoiler with AGC, TC/HF, SSRP. It seems to be one of the more lethal while still generalist configurations.
I've got 2 LL moirax at home ready to be built too and that's the configuration I run my despoiler! I've been using iconoclast mainly, just because the vows are so good. Infernal seems good but I just don't like smiting my own knight to get the boost I want.
I think if you have a decent screen that's a solid tough firebase.
I noticed you mention it here somewhere. I came to this thread to see if anything I was brewing was mainstream. Since I'm usually more of a FW dread guy.
Anyway ya that build seems pretty rowdy. I'll be running 30-60 tzaangors and/or some cultists among other things. Gate gives me a second reroll each turn so the TC won't be bad. That and a SSRP are basically a concession to running into bigger mech which I feel the second AGC doesn't do well enough. Plus I got AI elsewhere. Its all theory at this point..
The plan is use infernal to boost the AGC when needed, or whatever I'm doing atm. Smiting hurts but the option to stand back up and then start getting wounds back just looks too tasty. Especially with smash captains and opposing knights so easy to slot in and ruin my fun.
dominuschao wrote: I noticed you mention it here somewhere. I came to this thread to see if anything I was brewing was mainstream. Since I'm usually more of a FW dread guy.
Anyway ya that build seems pretty rowdy. I'll be running 30-60 tzaangors and/or some cultists among other things. Gate gives me a second reroll each turn so the TC won't be bad. That and a SSRP are basically a concession to running into bigger mech which I feel the second AGC doesn't do well enough. Plus I got AI elsewhere. Its all theory at this point..
The plan is use infernal to boost the AGC when needed, or whatever I'm doing atm. Smiting hurts but the option to stand back up and then start getting wounds back just looks too tasty. Especially with smash captains and opposing knights so easy to slot in and ruin my fun.
Yeah I suppose it's pick your poison, both have benefits. I've played house raven knights enough to know how much of a pain that stand back up and fight at full profile nonsense is!
I like vow of dominance for fighting smash captains, but making your knight t9 essentially does the same thing. There's just a couple of lists local to me that run silly necron macro weapons that wreck knights so anything to mitigate that is good in my books.
There's usually at least 2 lists at local tournaments that bring macros but tbf I'd say 1/3 of lists bring titanics. There was a time where in 4 games you'd definitely face, loyal 32, castellan and 3 smash captains. Almost copy and paste netlists.
It'd be super sketchy if someone turned up to a casual game, knowing I was bringing knights, with 3 gauss pylons.
With the release of new space marines I’m thinking duel avengers might be the way to go now. Before a think double battle cannons where the better choice do to the range and cost advantages it had over the avengers. Now though I’m thinking that primaris bodies (T4, 2W, 3+ sv) are going to be everywhere. Avengers are far more efficient at dealing with these then battle cannons (because anytime you roll a 1 for d3 damage with the battlecannon, it’s very bad).
I still think you should bring both with any 2 or more despoiler list, but in a 1 despoiler list you should bring avengers.
actually i play double battle cannons IK double avenger and avenger+thermal, i can deal with multiple kind of targets or you could play two helverins instead the gatling/thermal guy, flat 3 damage hurts primaris as well, problem is just the -1 AP
The rfbc still looks damn good to me, if infernal that is.. since it can be boosted to 2-4 damage and also achieve s9 vs opposing knights which is where it would typically out perform the agc.
i play it iconoclast with VOW of beastslayer and he performs pretty good, then depend by matchup i can give the helm and use trail of destuction, so i wreak havocs on those annoying flyers.
Anyway infernal is a decent option, but stratagems like vow of beastslayers and carnage are too good to just pass over
blackmage wrote: i play it iconoclast with VOW of beastslayer and he performs pretty good, then depend by matchup i can give the helm and use trail of destuction, so i wreak havocs on those annoying flyers.
Anyway infernal is a decent option, but stratagems like vow of beastslayers and carnage are too good to just pass over
I'm undecided - running a mono knight behind chaos soup and it seems like the infernal 3cp strat to stand back up is maybe worth it as most gun line armies worth their salt can kill a knight T1. Which means you basically have to hope to go first or tap out... True its degraded as hell getting back up but one knight is better than no knight? Obviously if you are running 3-4 knights its not a biggie due to target saturation..
yes playing 3 Ik's i found iconoclast performing better, anyway is not a simple choice, get a str9 d3+1 damage RFBC or str 7 d3 AGC, get back wounds with stratagem can change some games.
Honestly at this point it’s not even a question for me that iconclast is the better option. For a couple reasons.
-Vows are much better than anything you get from infernal. As I expected vow of beast-slayer has been all star stratagem. Might the 3rd best stratagem behind trail of destruction and rotate ion shields. The other 2 vows are also situationally good as well. I can’t think of the last competitive game I played where I didn’t use at least 1 vow. Infernal stratagems meanwhile all cost as much or more CP than iconclast ones (for reasons) and generally suck. Regaining wounds is the best 1, but feels like it could have costed 1 CP. Getting back up is bad for 3 CP when you can’t go back to full bracket, and warp rift may as well not exist post FAQ nerf.
-the mortal wounds you take from warp surging is not as trivial as everyone thought. There is a big difference between taking 1 mortal wound and D3 mortal wounds. Ask Grey knight players how they feel about their smite vs everyone else’s. For this reason Comparing this trait to Riptide nova-charging was a bad idea (in addition to riptides getting not caring about wounds as much in general due to drone protection). When the book first came out I was convinced the infernal trait was better than Iconoclast’s one, now I’m thinking they are about on par with each-other
no doubt, iconoclast is better overall, im running a IK with 2 RFBC and vow of beastslayer and it's absolutely amazing, with trail of destruction and, if needed warpsight elm, wreak havocs.
blackmage wrote: no doubt, iconoclast is better overall, im running a IK with 2 RFBC and vow of beastslayer and it's absolutely amazing, with trail of destruction and, if needed warpsight elm, wreak havocs.
This, my dude, is the exact combo I have been planning on trying!
I've been running the masque of slaanesh as one of the HQ in my allied Daemon battalion. She's handy as a gem caddie (to counter smash captain's, melee knights, mortarion etc). But she also allows you to buff multiple knights weapon skill against a single target each fight phase (she makes a single enemy unit +1 to hit). This has made the infernal stratagem for regaining wounds much more effective/reliable (I mostly use it when a knight is still on its top profile, it's pretty terrible when your down a bracket or two).
On another note I think boosting a battle cannon to S9 is very risky, as you take the mortal wounds and declare that you are using Daemonic Surge before you know how many shots you will roll. So you can easily end up taking mortal wounds only to buff a handful of shots.
Mushkilla wrote: I've been running the masque of slaanesh as one of the HQ in my allied Daemon battalion. She's handy as a gem caddie (to counter smash captain's, melee knights, mortarion etc). But she also allows you to buff multiple knights weapon skill against a single target each fight phase (she makes a single enemy unit +1 to hit). This has made the infernal stratagem for regaining wounds much more effective/reliable (I mostly use it when a knight is still on its top profile, it's pretty terrible when your down a bracket or two).
On another note I think boosting a battle cannon to S9 is very risky, as you take the mortal wounds and declare that you are using Daemonic Surge before you know how many shots you will roll. So you can easily end up taking mortal wounds only to buff a handful of shots.
I think you might be misusing the masque. She’s a special character so you can’t put the the gem on her. Also I believe the +1 to hit only works on Slaanesh demons.
Personally I’ve been using the contorted Epitome as my gem Cadie. More expensive than the masque but does a lot of useful things like deny annoying psychic powers, cast spells, trap things and CC, and kill certain things.
I think you might be misusing the masque. She’s a special character so you can’t put the the gem on her. Also I believe the +1 to hit only works on Slaanesh demons.
Personally I’ve been using the contorted Epitome as my gem Cadie. More expensive than the masque but does a lot of useful things like deny annoying psychic powers, cast spells, trap things and CC, and kill certain things.
Ahh nice catch with the gem. I forgot special characters can't get relics even from stratagems. The +1 to hit does work though as its a debuff on the enemy unit.
I'm considering the epitome too, but have yet to try it out.
On the dual RFBC whats the reasoning behind 2 of these over 1 RFBC plus a thermal cannon and stormspear rp?
The latter has less variance (3 + d6 shots) higher damage potential higher strength and costs only 8 pts more.
Anyway I'm getting ready to build my first CK and that loadout has me intrigued.
The main reason I can see for dual RFBC is the massive range giving me freedom to deploy out of part of the enemy's ranged weaponry. This does seem particularly strong if using CA 2018 scenarios with full army deployment and much less useful in alternating unit deployments.
dominuschao wrote: On the dual RFBC whats the reasoning behind 2 of these over 1 RFBC plus a thermal cannon and stormspear rp?
The latter has less variance (3 + d6 shots) higher damage potential higher strength and costs only 8 pts more.
Anyway I'm getting ready to build my first CK and that loadout has me intrigued.
The main reason I can see for dual RFBC is the massive range giving me freedom to deploy out of part of the enemy's ranged weaponry. This does seem particularly strong if using CA 2018 scenarios with full army deployment and much less useful in alternating unit deployments.
I bought a knight crusader kit to accompany my rampager/desecrator and two wardogs with autocannons.
I want to do something more competitive to travel to our capital LGS to play some games.
Now I want to build an army with my current minis.
Despoiler dual RFBC
Rampager
2x wardogs with autocannons
My chaos space marines are Red corsairs.. so I will bring atleast 3x 5man chaos marines along with two HQ and something to fill the points. My HQ options are LD, Lord with hammer & plasma pistol, jump sorceror, Huron and dark apostle.
My initial idea was to skip despoilers carapace weapon and throw two venom crawlers to join LD and Rampager for cc threat and throw couple RCC to marines.. and as 2nd HQ choice would be warp time & death hex jump sorceror. think this is solid or something else from RC arsenal better. i got havocs and tons of marines and ofcourse oblits. So there is the big blov of more where they came from, but I was thinking leaving the CP for knights.
Anyone playing similar knights accompanied with chaos marines?
Hope I made my quite open idea and guestion nuff understandable
Desp loadout of dual RFBC
2x venom crawler
All Csm squads get RCC
Vs.
Desp loaded with thermal and AGC
3x oblits
Does this help the answer.. and one if I take the long ranged route with RFBC should I just max out on damage output with carapace weapon and skip the chaincannons
Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 487pts]: Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, Ironstorm Missile Pod
. Rapid-fire battle cannon and heavy stubber: Heavy stubber, Rapid-fire battle cannon
. Rapid-fire battle cannon and heavy stubber: Heavy stubber, Rapid-fire battle cannon
Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 501pts]: Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Warlord
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
If you're only gonna bring a solo Knight, would Dreadblade be a good option to make up for missing Household traits? Or is it better to take the loss and not risk Damnations.
Lord discordant + MoS + intoxicating elixir
Sorcerer with jump pack + MoT + Eye of Tzeenzch + death hex + warp time
3x 5man chaos space marines
3x Obliterators + MoS Venomcrawler
Chaos knight super heavy detachment
Rampager + warlord (Eager for the kill)
Despoiler + 2x RFBC + twin icarus autocannon + helm of warpsight
Wardog + autocannons
2000p 14CP.
What do you think? Despoiler and wardog make a gunline as far back as possible to benefit from superior range. Screened by chaos marines. LD, venomcrawler and Rampager try the 1st turn charge if going first seems likely. Sorceror starts on table for warptiming LD on T1 or if going second is more likely drops for death hex on later turns..
I'm confused about how Characters and relics work in this book.
When you create a Chaos Knight detachment, you may make one of your Knights a Character. If you want to make a Knight your Warlord, you must choose a Character. If you wish to utilize your one free relic (and who wouldn't?), you must give it to a Character.
My current list is four Knights organized into a single Chaos Knights Super-heavy detachment. By RAW, the only option I'm aware of, with this particular list, if I want to use the free relic, is to make one of the Knights a Character (which makes sense) and then make that Knight the Warlord (again, no issue) and then give the free relic to that same Knight (that bit's not ideal). I don't want to give my Warlord the relic. I want the relic, the gauntlet or the Khornate Target do-hickey, on my dual CC-weapon Knight that's booking it up the field. I don't want that particular dude to be my Warlord, he's definitely going to die.
What am I missing? A speedy reply would be fantastic, I have a large event this weekend.
JNAProductions wrote: The Relic and Warlord strats give a Knight the Character Keyword.
Yes, I know they do.
Are you suggesting I use the Warlord strat to give a Knight Character so I can use my free relic (on a Knight that isn't my true Warlord)? Is that my only option, running pure Chaos Knights?
Thats what they are saying.
Only characters get relics, in any book (that I can think of).
In CK case only 1 character status is free so ya your stuck with spending a cp or not getting a relic.
On the bright side you can make this decision before each game so theres that..
Hi Guys, how come no one uses the full thermal cannon knight and only the rotor cannon? The thermal comboed with reroll to hit and 1 to wound from the strats seems really strong to me, also, it can still kill elite stomping and thermal kills what kills him, which are vehicles. It s cheaper as well.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: For those that’ve built them, how interchangeable are the bits between the Desecrator and regular kit?
Completely interchangeable, only thing you have to watch out for is the spikes on the top of the hull that block carapace weapons. You can just magazine or glue them in a different place to allow you to add the carapace weapons to the desecrator.
Also the laser destroyer weapon body fits another rfbc or agc barrel with a bit of filing.
I use the lock and key method for making all the arms interchangeable. Just file down each side of the elbow joint, one into a 'key' the other into a lock then you van swap weapons without the need for magnets.
What luck have you guys had with a rampager with relic fist? Was thinking wl with trait for extra attacks maybe only wound on 4 5 6 strat and iconoclast. Perhaps hes overkill for anything other than facing enemy knights?
Thinking of him a dual GC knight and a dual RFBC knight. Leaves me 650ish points for 2k. What would you guys add I was thinking a flamer tyrant no one online rates them but i hate facing them!
In ITC perhaps you can, if you play a format where GW missions (CA2018) are used and you find hordes you probably will lost. rampagers hit like trucks but resilient hordes (90+ pb's) or large numbers of models (GSC orks) makes them struggle, they dont have obj sec. and terrain is another issue
Oh nads, I knew there be something to stop such lunch!
Ah well!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
blackmage wrote: In ITC perhaps you can, if you play a format where GW missions (CA2018) are used and you find hordes you probably will lost. rampagers hit like trucks but resilient hordes (90+ pb's) or large numbers of models (GSC orks) makes them struggle, they dont have obj sec. and terrain is another issue
Upside there is can freely leave combat as needs be, and even move straight over the tar pit (though not I believe as a fallback move?)
you can leave combat as many times you want but remain fact you dont have obj sec. so in some missions you have troubles, i know ITC is pretty different it doesn't play GW missions so maybe you stand a chance, just use different datasheet cause rule of 3 prevent play 5 rampagers (3 rampagers+2 despoiler and you fine).
It’s more about just smashing up enemy units as fast and as comprehensively as possible.
Having a laugh in place of a solid plan.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the look on an opponents face when I jump his Deathstar with two or three Knights at the same time, and either chainsaw or kick them in the face until they’re dead from being no longer alive because they’ve been kicked so much.
I mean you can still run 3 rampagers and 2 despoilers with sword and fist right?
Also Im currently sitting on 3 unbuild knights. Not sure if I want to go about magnetizing them yet but in case that I dont. Do 2 rampagers and 1 double RFBC sounds good? at the very least Ill prob magnetize the guns.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s more about just smashing up enemy units as fast and as comprehensively as possible.
Having a laugh in place of a solid plan.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the look on an opponents face when I jump his Deathstar with two or three Knights at the same time, and either chainsaw or kick them in the face until they’re dead from being no longer alive because they’ve been kicked so much.
then you face 120 pb's and you start crying... but i know in ITC no one play so many
Dr.Duck wrote: I mean you can still run 3 rampagers and 2 despoilers with sword and fist right?
Also Im currently sitting on 3 unbuild knights. Not sure if I want to go about magnetizing them yet but in case that I dont. Do 2 rampagers and 1 double RFBC sounds good? at the very least Ill prob magnetize the guns.
Absolutely magnetize them! Don't even think about skipping it. It's a great way to future-proof your expensive Knight kits. It's not hard to do either. Trust me on this, you'll be thanking yourself later.
I agree wholeheartedly about magnetizing. Its -that- important, and as ZergSmasher noted not very difficult. I managed to do it with my first models while entering the hobby. Youtube is awesome.
Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 487pts]: Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, Ironstorm Missile Pod
. Rapid-fire battle cannon and heavy stubber: Heavy stubber, Rapid-fire battle cannon
. Rapid-fire battle cannon and heavy stubber: Heavy stubber, Rapid-fire battle cannon
Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 501pts]: Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Warlord
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
im testing infernals atm, if you want a better fire platform go for infernal, usually i set gatling/thermal or gatling/rfbc, gatling str7 d3 wreack havoc
To pass along, played at NOVA with chaos knight soup -> lightning lock war dogs are super competitive and worth taking against most lists in a tournament setting. Helps even more to have biggies to provide a saturation of targets. Even better that we can take 1 unit with 1-3 models in it to add the dakka.
orkswubwub wrote: To pass along, played at NOVA with chaos knight soup -> lightning lock war dogs are super competitive and worth taking against most lists in a tournament setting. Helps even more to have biggies to provide a saturation of targets. Even better that we can take 1 unit with 1-3 models in it to add the dakka.
That's good to know, I've only tried them out in friendly games so far but they have put in plenty of work and generally get ignored for lord discordants and despoilers.
orkswubwub wrote: To pass along, played at NOVA with chaos knight soup -> lightning lock war dogs are super competitive and worth taking against most lists in a tournament setting. Helps even more to have biggies to provide a saturation of targets. Even better that we can take 1 unit with 1-3 models in it to add the dakka.
I'm curious which house you rolled with? I'd assume iconoclast but I'm liking infernal so hoping to hear some good reports on that.
I'm currently deciding on getting into knights, and have decided to run chaos ones. My local meta isn't extremely competitive be aren't slouches either.
Knight Desecrator [23 PL, 417pts]: Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Reaper chainsword, The Diamonas
Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 461pts]: 3. Knight Diabolus, Character (Traitoris Lance), Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Thermal cannon, Twin Icarus Autocannon, Warlord
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
Knight Rampager [19 PL, 387pts]: 6. Aura of Terror, Character (Tyrannical Court), Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet
Knight Rampager [19 PL, 387pts]: Corrupted Heirloom, Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Reaper chainsword, The Traitor's Mark, Thunderstrike gauntlet
War Dogs [18 PL, 348pts] . War Dog: Infernal Household, Meltagun, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver
. War Dog: Infernal Household, Meltagun, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver
++ Total: [104 PL, 7CP, 2,000pts] ++
Planning to rush the two Rampager into the front lines ASAP to support each other and cause extra models to flee from combat. Added bonus is to distract from the Desacrator and Despoiler. Included the Icarus as its a prime candidate for popping flyers if buffed to be S8 D3. Wardogs are to stay in pace with Rampager knights, as their Thermal spears are tasty and can really batter tanks, and their speed makes relocating them easier.
Obviously not top tier competitive, but this army will be fully magnetized to allow weapon swaps to counter meta shifts and rules changes.
You guys incorporated magus into any lists? seems like a fun fit as a kinda proxy beatstick knight, whack the standard warp time, glamore, fates powers on him...
i'm considering him to replace a tyrant in this list, worth it? Couple of shooty knights and magnus plus a really killy ramapager
normal
Spoiler:
Super Heavy Detachment <Iconoclast>
Despoiler (2x Avenger Gatling, 2x Heavy Flamers, Heavy Stubber) 485
Despoiler (2x Rapid Battle Cannnons, Storm Spear, 3x Heavy Stubbers) 516
Rampager (Chainsword, Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber, <Warlord> 387
Super Heavy Auxilary <Infernal>
Tyrant 600
Thundercoil harpoon, Conflagration cannon, 2x Twin meltaguns
2x Twin siegebreaker cannons, 2x Shieldbreaker missiles
magnus
Spoiler:
2000pts Chaos Knights / Chaos Space Marines
Super Heavy Detachment <Iconoclast>
Despoiler (2x Avenger Gatling, 2x Heavy Flamers, Heavy Stubber) 485
Despoiler (2x Rapid Battle Cannnons, Storm Spear, 3x Heavy Stubbers) 516
Rampager (Chainsword, Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber, <Warlord> 387
Wardog (Thermal Spears, Chain Cleavers, Heavy Stubbers) 162
Super Heavy Auxilary <Thousand Sons>
Magnus the Red 445
orkswubwub wrote: To pass along, played at NOVA with chaos knight soup -> lightning lock war dogs are super competitive and worth taking against most lists in a tournament setting. Helps even more to have biggies to provide a saturation of targets. Even better that we can take 1 unit with 1-3 models in it to add the dakka.
I'm curious which house you rolled with? I'd assume iconoclast but I'm liking infernal so hoping to hear some good reports on that.
I went with iconoclast but could definitely see infernal being useful - if I had to do it again I think I would choose infernal actually.
dominuschao wrote: I think it's good because they can stand back up and deny secondaries possibly heal too. The daemonic power is discretionary.
This is basically the thought process. Also, rolling for the daemonic power isn't the worst thing, the mobility is frequently good to have (depending on the loadout) and unless you are playing against baneblades, volcano lances etc. the 9 toughness is a decent result as is the weapon boost. And as noted, its not always necessary to roll - but just rolling for it is not always a bad alternative, when choosing the power while the average runs 2 wounds, there is potential for 3 on the dice, and even going from 1 - 2 MW is quite significant.
It also makes the armigers much stronger against fliers etc. going to 7str 2 dmg on one gun, or to laser intercessors etc. Not all the time but once per game even it can pay forward.
Recently I've been considering running mixed moirax wardogs with 1 lightning lock and 1 graviton pulsar each. The idea being the potential to achieve s7 d2 plus s6 d4 shots. The shorter range sucks but the damage and ap is high.
Azuza001 wrote: So i am thinking of running chaos knights at my next local tournament. My question is this.....
Playing pure knights what would you suggest in basic/practical terms?
3 desectators and a tyrant or 1 tyrant, 2 desecrators, 3 wardogs?
Basically i am concerned that 4 bodies may not be enough.
Why are you asking to include descerators if you are asking for competitive advice? Can you give a link to any army top 10 that used desecrators at all?
As far as I am aware, its a swiffy but uncompetitive unit and not at all an optimal way to run a 'tournament' list... Also posting your ruleset would be useful - impossible to give any meaningful advice if its ETC vs ITC vs whatever the feth
Azuza001 wrote: So i am thinking of running chaos knights at my next local tournament. My question is this.....
Playing pure knights what would you suggest in basic/practical terms?
3 desectators and a tyrant or 1 tyrant, 2 desecrators, 3 wardogs?
Basically i am concerned that 4 bodies may not be enough.
Why are you asking to include descerators if you are asking for competitive advice? Can you give a link to any army top 10 that used desecrators at all?
As far as I am aware, its a swiffy but uncompetitive unit and not at all an optimal way to run a 'tournament' list... Also posting your ruleset would be useful - impossible to give any meaningful advice if its ETC vs ITC vs whatever the feth
fething hell. Who shoved a corn cob up your arse this morning? Not everyone follows the tournament scene or knows what is competitive or not. That's why people ask here in order to learn, or to descover new things/ideas.
He asked for recommendations and help, not to be treated like gak and to go to a list site that doesn't really explain anything like the synargies etc. Between units. Doesn't matter if its ITC/ETC/HIV/CJD/HRT or whatever tournament - he asked for a competitive list, surely one can be created without it being fine tuned for specifics?
Or is it beneath you to help someone who needs a lot of help, than helping someone build "Dick kicking netlist 34567853?
Azuza001 wrote: So i am thinking of running chaos knights at my next local tournament. My question is this.....
Playing pure knights what would you suggest in basic/practical terms?
3 desectators and a tyrant or 1 tyrant, 2 desecrators, 3 wardogs?
Basically i am concerned that 4 bodies may not be enough.
Why are you asking to include descerators if you are asking for competitive advice? Can you give a link to any army top 10 that used desecrators at all?
As far as I am aware, its a swiffy but uncompetitive unit and not at all an optimal way to run a 'tournament' list... Also posting your ruleset would be useful - impossible to give any meaningful advice if its ETC vs ITC vs whatever the feth
fething hell. Who shoved a corn cob up your arse this morning? Not everyone follows the tournament scene or knows what is competitive or not. That's why people ask here in order to learn, or to descover new things/ideas.
He asked for recommendations and help, not to be treated like gak and to go to a list site that doesn't really explain anything like the synargies etc. Between units. Doesn't matter if its ITC/ETC/HIV/CJD/HRT or whatever tournament - he asked for a competitive list, surely one can be created without it being fine tuned for specifics?
Or is it beneath you to help someone who needs a lot of help, than helping someone build "Dick kicking netlist 34567853?
TFG shows up to DakkaDakka in person, tells new players they're stupid. Claims a Chaos Knights list will perform significantly different under ITC or ETC rules.
@Azuza001 - Desecrators are a bold choice. 4 attacks base and d3 shots with the big gun limit what it can do offensively. It's the midway point between a Rampager and a Despoiler, don't be surprised when you get questions.
The one advantage I could see for them in competitive games is they would be secondary targets to Tyrants and Despoilers. You might be able to get away with using one as the ultimate objective camper.
That said, don't take 3 of them. You need tactical variation to win with Knights. A Tyrant, a Despoiler, a Desecrator and 3 WarDogs could probably do well against most armies. I'd rather have Despoilers over Desecrators any day.
@ techsoldaten & dr. Mills : thanks for the advice. I was going with the desecrators because range / cc abilities/ cost I found interesting but your right, i should go with 1. I think 1 with the relic and 3 wardogs would make sense, but if i dont go with the dogs then it loses a lot of its real value.
I have a list with 5 knights now, but it suffers from not running what I want vs what i own. I got a double gattling dispoiler but man is that guy expensive pts wise....
If i run 3 despoilers, 2 cc ones and 1 with double gattling, a tyrant harpoon loadout, i have just enough for 1 wardog with the melta weapon/chainsword. That puts me at 1991 pts.
So then my question becomes droping the wardog for upgrades to the other despoiler, worth it or not... 5 bodies vs 4, but 4 with guns vs 3?
Despoiler - gauntlet/chainsword/warlord:+1 attack/melta gun/ironstorm missile pod
Despoiler - double gattling/melta gun/ironstorm missile pod
Despoiler - double auto battle cannon/ironstorm missile pod
Total : 2000 pts.
The iron hands game was very interesting. He had the following list.
Iron father
Techmarine w/relic stone
Techmarine
Invictus war suit w/ autocannon
Ironclad dreadnought
Redemptor dreadnought w/ gattling cannons
Dreadnaught w/las cannon/missile launcher
3x 5 tactical marines
Stormraven
2x intercepror aircraft
Predator w/ 2 las cannon and autocannon
Predaror w/ 4 las cannon
Whirlwind w/ vengence launcher
Mission was 1st mission from chapter approved 2018, the one with 5 objectives and you roll to see which is worth 2vp.
I went first and did a whole lot of nothing to him. Moved my tyrant and warlord up and grabbed center of the table, i fired my assault cannon knight at the warsuit and blew it away overkill style, and fired my battlecannon knight at the 4 las predator and dropped it to 1 wound!
He went, repaired the predaror 4 wounds, moved flyers up, and focused on my warlord killing him (took 90% of his army to do it but it died lol).
My 2nd turn i destroyed the predator that was weakened, he has moved the redemptor out of range of the techpriest with stone/iron father so i focused on that and killed that. I also killed 5 marines with the tyrant, but that damn fathers 5++ saved the other predator from feeling the harpoons wrath.
His 2nd turn he dropped the ironclad dread out of the stormraven with another 5 man, put the raven into hover mode, and fired almost everything into the tyrant, dropping it to 12 wounds. He tried to charge his ironclad into my battlecannon knight and rolled a 4, not getting the charge off! Even with cp reroll he missed the charge. I think that was a key point, that ironclad could have seriously damaged my knight going first.
My 3rd turn i got my tyrant into positon and fired again at the predator. I moved my chaincannon knight towards his stormraven in hover mode, and moved the battlecannon knignt up as well to garuntee the charge on the dreadnaught. Tyrant dropped the predator to 2 wounds, gattling dropped the stormraven to 7, and battlecannon killed the ironclad. Tyrant charged the predator and finished it off (barely), gattling charged the raven and killed it, and battlecannon charged the marines and killed them.
His turn 3 everything fell appart. The flyers he had left had to fly into a position putting them so they could only shoot the gattling knight, and he had only 1 remaining reliable source of anti tank, the dreadnaught. He fired it at the tyrant, but even with bs2 from the ironfather and rerolling 1's the tyrant ended up taking 2 wounds only! (That 4++ saved its bacon for sure).
Turn 4 i positioned the tyrant so the iron father was closest to it and fired everything at him. That 3d6 autohitting cannon is no joke! Battlecannon blew the dreadnought away (he ran out of cp so no half dmg) and we called it at that point as all he had was the whirlwind, 2 tech marines, and the 2 aircraft but no way to get past the tyrant and grab any objectives.
My other game isnt worth going over in such detail, it was over by end of t2. His list was kinda.... silly.
2 lord of change
Fateweaver
2 Deamon prince of tzeentch
Arhiman
2x Sorcerer
6x 5 man rubric squads
We played 4 pillars, he went first. He moved up, did a lot of mortal wounds but didnt kill anything. I moved up, killed fateweaver with the tyrant (that harpoon is no joke when it finally hits something!), killed his warlord (one of the lords with the impossible robe and -1 dmg trait) with my warlord (i had given it khornate relic for no invulnerable so that chicken got curb stomped really badly), and 10 rubrics.
His t2 he did more spells and shots, did a bunch of wounds but again didnt kill anything actually dead, and charged my warlord with his 2 Deamon princes. 1st one did 6 wounds thanks diabolic strength dropping my warlord to 9 wounds, but i inturrupted and used the chainsword to cut the other deamon prince to pieces. My turn tyrant walked over to other lord of change and blew it away, my warlord stayed in combat with his dp and ended up killing it in cc, my other knights just blasted rubrics away like they were nothing, and we called it because all he had left was arhiman, 3 rubrics, and 1 sorcerer. Granted 3 of my knights were dmged, tyrant was at 12, warlord at 9, and chaingun was at 16 but the battlecannon was at full health and he wasnt going to kill anything at that point.
Things i learned: being able to see what the opponent has before picking the vows for chaos knights is important. Also i dont think we really need to use many relics to be effective. Iron hands are annoying, but target priority can deal with that. As we all figured, kill things 100%, kill the easiest targets first, and hold your ground, they are beatable. I really liked the double battle cannon knight, 4d6 shots was very effective. And iconoclass's additonal attack and ap when charging was actually quite effective. I guess the only model that didnt impress me was the double gattling but then again i didnt face any hordes. I am sure he would be very effective vs orks or guard.
New to IK and CK.
After reading through the posts I still haven't gotten a good idea on how to run a Tyrant. The lance/conflag comes in at 600 seems to be a good deal and would lend itself to walking up the board with support to keep pesky smash captains away.
If you *had* to run a Tyrant, how would you run him? For my context, I plan on using Morty as a guided missle and bullet sponge while I walk up the board with the Tyrant and a couple of melee wardogs.
Brymm wrote: New to IK and CK.
After reading through the posts I still haven't gotten a good idea on how to run a Tyrant. The lance/conflag comes in at 600 seems to be a good deal and would lend itself to walking up the board with support to keep pesky smash captains away.
If you *had* to run a Tyrant, how would you run him? For my context, I plan on using Morty as a guided missle and bullet sponge while I walk up the board with the Tyrant and a couple of melee wardogs.
Thanks!!!
Well there's two possibilities in my mind.
Make it as tough as possible by making it iconoclast, giving it Vow of Dominance, Dreadblade relic for 5++ in CC and the ignore -1 AP pact.
Or make it as mobile and killy as possible with infernal for a str 8 3dmg super flamer.
Giving him the infernal quest warlord trait will also be helpful as he can sit on an objective and be a nightmare for your opponent to remove or even contest the objective!
Going to bring this list to a 2 day/6 round tournament with ITC-setup:
SUPER HEAVY DETACHMENT (Iconoclast)
LOW: Despoiler with Thermal cannon + Thermal cannon (WARLORD)
LOW: Despoiler with Thermal cannon + Thermal cannon (dreadblade)
LOW: Despoiler with Thermal cannon + Thermal cannon (dreadblade)
SUPER HEAVY DETACHMENT (Infernal)
LOW: Knight Rampager with gauntlet and reaper chainsword and meltagun (dreadblade)
LOW: War dog moirax with lighting lock + lighting lock
LOW: War dog moirax with lighting lock + lighting lock
SPEARHEAD DETACHMENT
HQ: Renegade commander
HS: 3 Renegade heavy weapon team with 3x mortar
HS: 3 Renegade heavy weapon team with 3x mortar
HS: 3 Renegade heavy weapon team with 3x mortar
Simple but effective (I hope). Last tournament I wished I got more thermal cannons and now I'am bringing them. Knight rampager gets Slaanesh throne, infernal bonus movement, dreadblade movement bonus and warlord trait with +1 charge/advance. If functions as a rape blender bullet that probably dies but then the other knights live.
Can pick different warlord traits, relics, and dreadblade bonuses at the start of the game. Moirax wardogs can juice-up one lightning lock weapon with infernal bonus.
Never played against plaguebearer armies but I hope my rampager and tapdancing despoilers can take them down.
I like this setting because last time I've seen a lot of Astra M shooty armies (tank commanders), and in combination with diagonally or long table edge deployment I simply got shot to pieces because it took a few turns to get close to the enemy. Also ruins made it tough to move knights forward effectively. 6 thermal cannons can really do a number on them.
I used to bring one double gatling knight but I switched to thermal cannons because I always end up shooting at big targets and the thermal cannons are much cheaper for that.
Going to bring this list to a 2 day/6 round tournament with ETC-setup:
SUPER HEAVY DETACHMENT (Iconoclast)
LOW: Despoiler with Thermal cannon + Thermal cannon (WARLORD)
LOW: Despoiler with Thermal cannon + Thermal cannon (dreadblade)
LOW: Despoiler with Thermal cannon + Thermal cannon (dreadblade)
SUPER HEAVY DETACHMENT (Infernal)
LOW: Knight Rampager with gauntlet and reaper chainsword and meltagun (dreadblade)
LOW: War dog moirax with lighting lock + lighting lock
LOW: War dog moirax with lighting lock + lighting lock
SPEARHEAD DETACHMENT
HQ: Renegade commander
HS: 3 Renegade heavy weapon team with 3x mortar
Might be wrong but you cant put moirax units on ETC rules!!
HS: 3 Renegade heavy weapon team with 3x mortar
HS: 3 Renegade heavy weapon team with 3x mortar
Simple but effective (I hope). Last tournament I wished I got more thermal cannons and now I'am bringing them. Knight rampager gets Slaanesh throne, infernal bonus movement, dreadblade movement bonus and warlord trait with +1 charge/advance. If functions as a rape blender bullet that probably dies but then the other knights live.
Can pick different warlord traits, relics, and dreadblade bonuses at the start of the game. Moirax wardogs can juice-up one lightning lock weapon with infernal bonus.
Never played against plaguebearer armies but I hope my rampager and tapdancing despoilers can take them down.
I like this setting because last time I've seen a lot of Astra M shooty armies (tank commanders), and in combination with diagonally or long table edge deployment I simply got shot to pieces because it took a few turns to get close to the enemy. Also ruins made it tough to move knights forward effectively. 6 thermal cannons can really do a number on them.
I used to bring one double gatling knight but I switched to thermal cannons because I always end up shooting at big targets and the thermal cannons are much cheaper for that.
I might be wrong but you cant pick moirax for ETC !!
All the warlord traits for Chaos are situational. I take just the one that you have to, and depending on opponent it's either the Deny or the Obsec trait.
Loyalists have the better Warlord traits, but I think Chaos has the more flexible Relics.
Brymm wrote: Hey guys,
Do you typically find spending command points on T Court for more warlord traits to be worth it?
Depends on what you are bringing and/or what you are facing.. My fast 'get in your face' rampager get's 'eager for the kill' but he dies fast so I would rather keep my warlord in the back (double thermal cannons) with infernal quest warlord trait or knight diabolus. If I would face a 'smite' thousand sons army then I would consider the warp haunted hull. So I would most likely take 1 extra warlord trait with tyrannical court but most likely not 2. Maybe when I would face a full knight army myself I would take the 2 extra attack bonus warlord traits and infernal quest so that I would keep claiming objectives even when fighting with another knight on top of an objective.
Thanks guys.
Sorry for the newb questions but how does this work? If I am reading Traitoris Lance and Tyrannical court right, could I take a detachment of say CSM or Death Guard and select a model from that detachment to be my Warlord, then use Lance and Court to make more character/warlord/relic knights in a knight super heavy detachment?
Hey guys!
Question: pretend I'm worried about a repulsor heavy meta. I know double thermal cannon knights are all the rage, but what about thermal cannon/RFBC infernal knights? Especially with so many Primaris and Aggressors running around? The RFBC can be bumped up to str9 2-4 damage at great range turn 1 to help pound down those t8 targets.
Is it worth the price bump?
Brymm wrote: Hey guys!
Question: pretend I'm worried about a repulsor heavy meta. I know double thermal cannon knights are all the rage, but what about thermal cannon/RFBC infernal knights? Especially with so many Primaris and Aggressors running around? The RFBC can be bumped up to str9 2-4 damage at great range turn 1 to help pound down those t8 targets.
Is it worth the price bump?
Thermal Cannon does, unbuffed...
7/2 shots
7/3 hits
14/9 wounds
14/9 unsaved
49/9 damage outside of Melta range, or 5.44 damage
Brymm wrote: Hey guys!
Question: pretend I'm worried about a repulsor heavy meta. I know double thermal cannon knights are all the rage, but what about thermal cannon/RFBC infernal knights? Especially with so many Primaris and Aggressors running around? The RFBC can be bumped up to str9 2-4 damage at great range turn 1 to help pound down those t8 targets.
Is it worth the price bump?
Thermal Cannon does, unbuffed...
7/2 shots
7/3 hits
14/9 wounds
14/9 unsaved
49/9 damage outside of Melta range, or 5.44 damage
Yea, but buffs matter. Taking an iconoclast double Thermal cannon despoiler with reroll 1 to wound against 7+ wound targets (stratagem) and give it reroll to hit and maybe even a single reroll with the amount of shots. That single knight uses a lot of buffs but it brings a lot more pain against the big targets. I end up switching my double gatling gun despoiler with thermal cannons because I end up shooting at big targets anyway and thermal cannons are cheaper for that. Thermal cannons are better at shooting at Toughness 8 (repulsors, knights) compared to the rapid fire battle cannon, and with 12 inch movement and 36 range guns I don't see a lot of issue with range.
I'm looking to pick up some chaos knights in the future, and this thread has been a goldmine for useful info and knight configurations! However, I need to ask the question on allies.
While using R+H is a no brainer for being cheap, what would be useful allies both for chaos marines or demons to support a majority melee/anti tank knight configuration? I'm looking at around the 450-500pts mark to add objective securement and ranged infantry clearing.
Dr. Mills wrote: I'm looking to pick up some chaos knights in the future, and this thread has been a goldmine for useful info and knight configurations! However, I need to ask the question on allies.
While using R+H is a no brainer for being cheap, what would be useful allies both for chaos marines or demons to support a majority melee/anti tank knight configuration? I'm looking at around the 450-500pts mark to add objective securement and ranged infantry clearing.
If you need seriously anti horde you could take RCC havocks for the job. A lord, sorcerer, 3x5 csm and RCC havocks. Should be around 520 points?
So a detachment of two wardogs and a desecrator dropped 75 points.
All other despoler class what evers etc are still in the same points. For me, I've actually tried the desec with relic laser and two wardogs combo so that list with the csm points drops got an impact against primaris.. actually if I quickly look at this my 2k lidst got down 114 points.
I still think a focussed fire just drop knights too fast so dunno how the meta will shift. There's definately a maybe for my now 75p cheaper long-ranged support CK detachment.
Knight Tyrant
Selections: 4. Warp-haunted Hull, Character (Traitoris Lance), Conflagration cannon and Thundercoil harpoon, Iconoclast Household, 2x Twin siegebreaker cannons, Two Shieldbreaker missiles, Veil of Medrengard, Warlord
Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Death Guard)
No Force Org Slot
Battle-forged CP Detachment CP HQ Chaos Lord
Selections: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
Troops
Poxwalkers
Selections: 13x Poxwalker
Heavy Support
Plagueburst Crawler
Selections: 2x Plaguespitter, Heavy slugger
Plagueburst Crawler
Selections: 2x Plaguespitter, Heavy slugger
Plagueburst Crawler
Selections: 2x Plaguespitter, Heavy slugger
Created with BattleScribe
Plan on working this list out for a bit. Anyone have experience running knights with PBCs?
I've done it but I don't bother about the chaos lord for re-rolls I use a poxbringer for fleshy abundance. Its hilarious when someone works so hard to put 5 wounds on a PBC then you heal it for D3. I use them to screen for a double gatling knight though because thats my damage output and you don't need to hold to a 6" aura for rerolls. They are really just weirdly resilient mortars that piss people off. And triple PBmortars are effective at taking out thunderfire cannons and the like. Also flyers get oddly surprised by the Gatling cannon heavy flamers and the PBC spitters. Had someone try and moveblock my knight with a stormhawk and they got surprised. This list gets hard shut down by imperial fists though.
He ran triple doom scythe, triple doomsday with two destroyer squads and Immotek.
I ran Tyrant with super flamer/harpoon, Veil and Vow of Dom, double battle cannon despoiler and double thermal despoiler along with a Death Guard battalion with a lord, plague caster, pox walkers and a single plague burst crawler.
I won a tight one using ITC mission 1 with Dawn of War deployment.
I lost the double RFBC bottom of 1 to some serious doom and doom shooting. Luckily I was able to control the center with tyrant, and rolls hot on the thermals. He played pretty cagey and fought for every point but turn 6 ended with just Immotek and a DDA left vs my Tyrant and Thermal Knight, with me and a 2 pt lead.
After seeing the leaks, I am totally stoked. Buffs with no drawbacks is the best.
I would love more strats and more relics but I’ll live.
As far as tactics, I love the new Herpetrax house. Keeping the iconoclast benefits while just getting a bonus 2w and the best Warlord trait we have access to (IMO) with no draw back. The relic is situationally amazing if you’re playing smash captains, meaning that you should be able to handle a combat against one without dying, which seems awesome.
I’m saddened that the relic conflagration cannon is on a house with fewer other useful things, especially for a Tyrant.
The custom rules are pretty neat, adding range seems awesome, as does the increase AP within 12”
For Endless Torment, is the reroll a dice per model or per weapon? For Endless Torment, is the reroll a dice per model or per weapon? It says "a weapon" not "any of the model's weapons"...so for a double battlecannon knight, the way I read it, you can reroll 1 of the 2 dice for each battlecannon. For a double thermal knight, you could reroll the d6 on both guns. And of course the carapace random shot weapons.
Virules wrote: For Endless Torment, is the reroll a dice per model or per weapon? For Endless Torment, is the reroll a dice per model or per weapon? It says "a weapon" not "any of the model's weapons"...so for a double battlecannon knight, the way I read it, you can reroll 1 of the 2 dice for each battlecannon. For a double thermal knight, you could reroll the d6 on both guns. And of course the carapace random shot weapons.
When a model with this bond fires overwatch or is chosen to shoot with, yoi can reroll a single dice
It's one dice per time the model is chosen.
a weapon that has a random number of attacks eg (Heavy D6)
The issue is because your reading the sentence in wierdly parsed chunks.
Virules wrote: For Endless Torment, is the reroll a dice per model or per weapon? For Endless Torment, is the reroll a dice per model or per weapon? It says "a weapon" not "any of the model's weapons"...so for a double battlecannon knight, the way I read it, you can reroll 1 of the 2 dice for each battlecannon. For a double thermal knight, you could reroll the d6 on both guns. And of course the carapace random shot weapons.
When a model with this bond fires overwatch or is chosen to shoot with, yoi can reroll a single dice
It's one dice per time the model is chosen.
a weapon that has a random number of attacks eg (Heavy D6)
The issue is because your reading the sentence in wierdly parsed chunks.
Your interpretation doesn't seem correct to me? It doesn't say one reroll one dice each time the model is chosen to attack. It says you can reroll a single dice WHEN ATTACKING WITH A WEAPON that has a random number of shots. Which would mean that if you attack with multiple weapons that have a random number of shots, you would get to reroll a dice for each weapons.
Virules wrote: For Endless Torment, is the reroll a dice per model or per weapon? For Endless Torment, is the reroll a dice per model or per weapon? It says "a weapon" not "any of the model's weapons"...so for a double battlecannon knight, the way I read it, you can reroll 1 of the 2 dice for each battlecannon. For a double thermal knight, you could reroll the d6 on both guns. And of course the carapace random shot weapons.
When a model with this bond fires overwatch or is chosen to shoot with, yoi can reroll a single dice
It's one dice per time the model is chosen.
a weapon that has a random number of attacks eg (Heavy D6)
The issue is because your reading the sentence in wierdly parsed chunks.
Your interpretation doesn't seem correct to me? It doesn't say one reroll one dice each time the model is chosen to attack. It says you can reroll a single dice WHEN ATTACKING WITH A WEAPON that has a random number of shots. Which would mean that if you attack with multiple weapons that have a random number of shots, you would get to reroll a dice for each weapons.
Because your only looking at half the rule for some weird reason.
The two quotes are from the rule in question, it is one sentence.
A single dice each time the model is chosen to shoot with seems very clear. Your not getting catachan levels of rerolls in a build your own knight house.
Each time a VEHICLE with this doctrine fires a ranged weapon that makes a random number of attacks (e.g. Heavy D6, Heavy 2D6 etc.) you can re-roll one of the dice used to determine the number of attacks made.
It's writen very significantly differently, as is gunnery experts their build your own regiment version.
Anyone thought about what they’re gonna do with psychic awakening? Or is everyone just waiting for the new edition? I suck at list writing so need some input lol
I think the general consensus is that nothing in psychic awakening is really going to alter the list building in Chaos Knights. Double thermal knights are still the most points efficient knight, and running three Iconoclast for the great vows is still probably the best plan. The new book just allows us to make those same knights a little better by running them with a “free” household bond and possibly a better warlord trait (because ours aren’t the best IMO, getting up on a 4+ when you die as Iconoclast is just amazing).
Also I think unless you have an upcoming game in the next month 9th will have dropped so any list written now will likely be invalidated.
9th edition has been announced so I would say most people are probably going to be in a holding pattern untill we have 9th editions rules then their will be an explosion of theory crafting etc.
Did anyone get a look at the new rules from psychic awakening on chaos knights ?
The one that increases range of all weapons 24 inches and more by 6 inches and those less than by 2 inches is pretty good. This makes thermal cannons reach very far (with movement added in).
And its pretty good on a conflag cannon Tyrant too. all the 12 inch melta guns and that harpoon will now be 14 inch range, and the conflag cannon will be now 20 inches range. Factoring in movement as well, this increases the reach of a conflag cannon Tyrant.
And its not asterix, so you can take an additonal bound rule on top of that too.
New trait “Gheists of Ruin” grants a cover save over 24” to models with that trait, how good is this?
My first read was yes!
My second read was no!
My third read was maybe!
When does this really come into play? Outside of 24 is where most heavy weapons are hitting from, meaning usually high AP like a lascannon. Taking a lascannon with cover is a -2 modifier meaning a rotated ion shield save is as good. Under 24 seems like where you’ll end up needing the cover bonus the most though, where mass low AP shooting is prevalent , getting to knock down mass bolter fire from AP-1 to AP 0 seems awesome.
Brymm wrote: New trait “Gheists of Ruin” grants a cover save over 24” to models with that trait, how good is this?
My first read was yes!
My second read was no!
My third read was maybe!
When does this really come into play? Outside of 24 is where most heavy weapons are hitting from, meaning usually high AP like a lascannon. Taking a lascannon with cover is a -2 modifier meaning a rotated ion shield save is as good. Under 24 seems like where you’ll end up needing the cover bonus the most though, where mass low AP shooting is prevalent , getting to knock down mass bolter fire from AP-1 to AP 0 seems awesome.
I was reading that too. But honestly, you need a very specific type of build to consider taking that. It would have to be a mainly long range despoiler with double battle cannon, or a long range tyrant. And like you said, they will likely shoot you with stuff like lascannons. Bolter fire, to be honest is never going to be that scary to knights with T8. Also, I think we get the best use out of our knights if we are moving up, shooting, and also getting into combat. So, given this is only effective at over 24 inches makes its a lot less useful unless you are running strictly ranged shooting knights.
Brymm wrote: New trait “Gheists of Ruin” grants a cover save over 24” to models with that trait, how good is this?
My first read was yes!
My second read was no!
My third read was maybe!
When does this really come into play? Outside of 24 is where most heavy weapons are hitting from, meaning usually high AP like a lascannon. Taking a lascannon with cover is a -2 modifier meaning a rotated ion shield save is as good. Under 24 seems like where you’ll end up needing the cover bonus the most though, where mass low AP shooting is prevalent , getting to knock down mass bolter fire from AP-1 to AP 0 seems awesome.
Also word of warning on the AP-1 to AP-0 as worded I don't believe works on making Ap-2 AP-1 which would is actually what marines etc tend to be putting out everywhere battlevannons AP-2 AP-1 isnt something I tend to see.
This is just for games over the next couple of months before 9th in the garden if the weather holds but I’m thinking...
Infernal Khomentis
Despoiler double gattler (warlord Dread Hunter)
2 x Moirax wardog twin lightning locks
Iconoclast pin point cruelty and pride fuelled fury
Desecrator with Diamonas
2 x Despoiler double thermal cannons and iron storm missile pods
1993pts
I think so, I can’t find anything to say that it won’t but I might be wrong. Put it in with the tc knights because it’ll benefit from those traits more than the gattler knight
I really hope 9th edition has some good things for superheavies to offset all the nerfs so far. This whole obscuring terrain means we can be seen and hit all the time while our opponents who are non superheavies can hide behind obscuring terrain.
If we continue to be blocked from moving forward by single infantry models, cannot assault infantry in terrain, and cannot even shoot at units behind obscuring terrain, basically, our knights are just there to be targets to be shot at while opponent win from objectives...
Eldenfirefly wrote: I really hope 9th edition has some good things for superheavies to offset all the nerfs so far. This whole obscuring terrain means we can be seen and hit all the time while our opponents who are non superheavies can hide behind obscuring terrain.
If we continue to be blocked from moving forward by single infantry models, cannot assault infantry in terrain, and cannot even shoot at units behind obscuring terrain, basically, our knights are just there to be targets to be shot at while opponent win from objectives...
GW already indicated hiding in 2nd floor ain't protection from vehicles and monsters anymore. I seriously doubt knights are going to be worse off than that ;-)
Figured I'd post this here:
Am I correct in this:
unlike the other knight kits, there is no real point to magnetizing the War Dogs on account that the Autocannons and Thermal Spear come in different boxes?
Always magnetize knights, both big ones and little ones. It’s a simple step that you’ll be happy you did it later. You can order third party weapons from places like Legio Models and such. Do it.
carldooley wrote: Figured I'd post this here:
Am I correct in this:
unlike the other knight kits, there is no real point to magnetizing the War Dogs on account that the Autocannons and Thermal Spear come in different boxes?
It depends on price of 3rd party guns you can find(are they cheap enough for you to pay for) and how much future proofing you want. ATM your only benefit would be if you can find 3rd party just guns cheap enough it's not simply better to just buy whole knight. But what if GW changes knight rules so you can have say autocanno and melta? Or autocannon and chainsword?
Albeit that's very unlikely with Games "no model no rule" Workshop so unless they do kit that allows all options(and since that would require whole new sprues...) not going to happen.
So it's question of can you get alternative guns cheap enough it's actually worth it or not. If not no real loss. If you can then it's easy process to magnetize.
edit: So for example above mentioned legion models. Seems autocannon is 12$. So do you want to pay 48$ to give your 2 warglaives option to be either warglaive or do you want to spend 27$ more to field 2 helverins as well as 2 warglaives. (note shipping not included). If you want to save money rather than get also more bodies magnets certainly good option.
For anyone interested, I did an analysis on my YouTube channel yesterday on how to play Chaos in 9th Edition based on all the new points changes and FAQs:
Just some thoughts:
I’m going to try a Valiant Tyrant along with two Warglaive War Dogs as a super heavy detachment to run along side my Death Guard. It seems with smaller board and more objective focus missions, having close quarters oriented Knights that can shoot non blast weapons while still in combat seem awesome. Being able to actually use a chain glaive seems sweet too. The Valiant will be in range of a large portion of the board turn 1.
Guns like RFBCs main advantage was range and that’s becoming less of an issue than actual LOS.
Out of LOS shooting like our missiles seem like they will be extra good now.
There was a significant change in the FAQ for chaos knights. Chaos knights like despoilers and tyrants can now move over blocking units as long as they don't end their move in engagement range of an enemy unit. This is a significant change. No longer can a bunch of scouts move up to within 1.1 inch of a melee despoiler and restrict its movement.
Also, titanic units like chaos knights can fall back and shoot, and even fall back and charge. So, a melee despoiler or rampager is pretty scary now since it can't be so easily constrained in movement. It will be free to charge forward and smash stuff up.
This, plus the fact that Thermal cannons got hit by a cost increase means that the cheapest knights we can field now are melee despoilers with fist and chainsword,
Another buff to melee knights is that these can reach second or even third floor easily now in a fight. Putting a unit on upper floors no longer protects them from being charged and killed by a knight in close combat.
I think chainsword and fist despoilers and even rampagers will become more popular in chaos knight armies in 9th ed.
Okay, I think this is the knight I will be building around in 9e for the foreseeable:
House Khomentis Knight Castigator warlord. With Damonic Shrike and Dread hunter.
It's hardly a hugely original loadout, but 9e just put this guy through the roof due to tactical reserves.
There's now no way of stopping this chonky boy shooting at top profile at the target of his choice, either on T1 if you judge your opponent not to have the means to take him down, or T2 if you're facing lots of AT.
His gun will do an average of 16 damage vs T8 4++. It will one-bang anything without an invuln save.
The current competitive rules don’t really have restrictions other than to be battle forged, detachments must share a faction keyword. The common word for detachments to be selected for us is “CHAOS”.
Meaning a Chaos Knights detachment can be taken with a Chaos Space Marines detachment and a Chaos Daemons detachment. Or a Thousand Sons or Deathguard.
The key is that they can’t be mixed in a single detachment unless they share ANOTHER key word, like NURGLE or something.
Brymm wrote: The current competitive rules don’t really have restrictions other than to be battle forged, detachments must share a faction keyword. The common word for detachments to be selected for us is “CHAOS”.
Meaning a Chaos Knights detachment can be taken with a Chaos Space Marines detachment and a Chaos Daemons detachment. Or a Thousand Sons or Deathguard.
The key is that they can’t be mixed in a single detachment unless they share ANOTHER key word, like NURGLE or something.
Does this help?
keeping in mind that I don't have the new rules yet...
https://spikeybits.com/2020/07/gw-nerfs-grand-tournament-play-40k-rules.html the article said that CHAOS was no longer a legit soup keyword, meaning that we'd be stuck going mono-faction. While I don't currently plan on going to any GTs, any local tournaments may well follow the rules and has me concerned.
sorry. I misread it as each unit in the army had to share a keyword other than chaos. my bad. I can still use my Cult of Duplicity as soup.
This edition is tough on Knights. Opponent can max out on easy secondary quite easily if you are running full knight army. And playing primary objectives can be challenging too.
From what I see, its possible to play 1 war dog and as many as 4 knights. So, place the one wardog on the rear objective and hope that your opponent doesn't have anything that can challenge that.
Then throw 4 knights forward onto the midboard objectives and hope that that will overwhelm the opponent. a wardog is around 155 points. So, that still leave 1845 points to be spent on 4 knights, which is a decent amount.
Its better than putting a big shooty knight on your rear objective and wasting its melee ability. Because even a shooty variant knight can fight.
So what I’m reading is that you can take your super heavy detachment and get a full refund if your warlord is TITANIC. A change from last edition is that you can get the full command benefit of running a TITANIC unit as your Warlord with two Wardogs so you can have lots of points left to fill out a different detachment of Chaos like Deathguard. Food for thought.
Get a Khorne Lord of Skulls to go with your Khorne Daemons. Super fluffly! As a single superheavy, a LOS is just as good as a knight. Price points are similar too. Ah sorry, I forgot this was the chaos knight thread. Anyway, go for a shooty knight, as Khorne Daemons doesn't have much shooting, and even a shooty knight can still fight well enough.
Brymm wrote: So what I’m reading is that you can take your super heavy detachment and get a full refund if your warlord is TITANIC. A change from last edition is that you can get the full command benefit of running a TITANIC unit as your Warlord with two Wardogs so you can have lots of points left to fill out a different detachment of Chaos like Deathguard. Food for thought.
A House Lucaris Despoiler with the Lucaris WLT, 2 Avengers and a Pyrothrone is probably going to be my go to. Plus a bunch of Helverins, and a Battalion of Thousand Sons. I'm a little bummed that I can only have a single instance of a power other than Smite, but the funsies of a full squad of Rubrics dropping in exactly where I need it might just be so much fun.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Get a Khorne Lord of Skulls to go with your Khorne Daemons. Super fluffly! As a single superheavy, a LOS is just as good as a knight. Price points are similar too. Ah sorry, I forgot this was the chaos knight thread. Anyway, go for a shooty knight, as Khorne Daemons doesn't have much shooting, and even a shooty knight can still fight well enough.
Cp intensive though and, without two friends in a SHD, can't unlock CSM traits on its own in an aux. I think that model's future is gonna hang on their next codex.
Don't know if you've played against them, but they are heavily impacted by the Iron Warriors warlord traits and strats like Iron Within, Dour Duty, unholy vigor and tank hunters. Along with certain characters, this is what pushed triple LoS into the very top ranks of competitive lists at the end of 8e.
Been messing around with lists a bit recently. Trying to decide which knight is best for Infernal Conquest. First thought is a Valiant, because chonkh. But then I remembered Helm of Warp-Sight. Even though I'd get little from my normal House Lucaris, a double avenger could be super sneaky to use, as long as I'm not mistaken, HoWS let's you dakka at enemies in engagement range at full BS. Having that parked on an objective could be really nice.
Also, was there ever an FAQ which let. FW knights take relics? I can't find it anywhere.
StarHunter25 wrote: was there ever an FAQ which let. FW knights take relics? I can't find it anywhere.
why should that matter? It isn't the datasheet that allows Chaos Knights to take relics, but rather the description on P. 68 of the 'Artifacts of Tyranny'. The only possible exception is if you want to take a second, as the 'Corrupted Heirlooms' Stratagem limits it to Despoilers, Tyrants, or Abhorrents.
edit, make your FW knight your Warlord, and it can take a Relic. The only real issue is if you want a second or a third.
It's almost as if I had read the rules, and noticed how much more specific the Chaos Knights codex is with keywords in regards to warlords, relics, and stratagems in comparison to the Imperial Knights codex. I also may have heard the rumors of the lack of communication between the GW and FW design teams, and guessed that the PDF updates were more or less copy paste jobs. Thus my question to the existence of a FAQ or designer's commentary potentially being hidden on GW's myriad social media outlets in regards to keyword relations for Cerastus, Acastus and Questoris knights from Forgeworld. Thanks for the condescending non-answer though.
StarHunter25 wrote: It's almost as if I had read the rules, and noticed how much more specific the Chaos Knights codex is with keywords in regards to warlords, relics, and stratagems in comparison to the Imperial Knights codex. I also may have heard the rumors of the lack of communication between the GW and FW design teams, and guessed that the PDF updates were more or less copy paste jobs. Thus my question to the existence of a FAQ or designer's commentary potentially being hidden on GW's myriad social media outlets in regards to keyword relations for Cerastus, Acastus and Questoris knights from Forgeworld. Thanks for the condescending non-answer though.
Reading your offense over that response is worse than whatever you are feeling about it.
Chaos daemons are a good faction to soup in for Chaos knights. Nurglings are great, and if you take a patrol detachment, you can take up to 3 nurglings squads. For just 2 CP to get that patrol.
If you are willing to use 3 CP to get a battalion, you can get even more nurgling squads. And they make up for the biggest problem with playing knights. We don't want our knights sitting on an objective, we want them fighting the enemy.
So, all those nurgling squads can now do the objective sitting, and they are great objective sitters, while our chaos knights can then go do whatever they want.
Eldenfirefly wrote:Chaos daemons are a good faction to soup in for Chaos knights. Nurglings are great, and if you take a patrol detachment, you can take up to 3 nurglings squads. For just 2 CP to get that patrol.
If you are willing to use 3 CP to get a battalion, you can get even more nurgling squads. And they make up for the biggest problem with playing knights. We don't want our knights sitting on an objective, we want them fighting the enemy.
So, all those nurgling squads can now do the objective sitting, and they are great objective sitters, while our chaos knights can then go do whatever they want.
grouchoben wrote:Plus strong psykers... a LoC is pretty good right now.
Yeah, if you're gonna soup in Daemons, Nurgle and Tzeentch do NOT mind losing their Locus (which is their mono-faction bonus).
bmsattler wrote: Knights can start with the full 12 if your Warlord is in the Super-Heavy Detachment and you have no other detachments costing CP.
Hmm. I didn't see anything clarifying that so I started with 9. Like I said, it was my first game of 9th!
The smaller board did help, but man...having to hold back to hold objectives...is un-knightly. I may try a more aggressive list with more rampagers and just try and surge forward and hit the enemy before they can move out next time.
bmsattler wrote: Knights can start with the full 12 if your Warlord is in the Super-Heavy Detachment and you have no other detachments costing CP.
Hmm. I didn't see anything clarifying that so I started with 9. Like I said, it was my first game of 9th!
The smaller board did help, but man...having to hold back to hold objectives...is un-knightly. I may try a more aggressive list with more rampagers and just try and surge forward and hit the enemy before they can move out next time.
Chaos Knights errata wrote:*Pages 62 – Traitoris Lances, rules text
Change the last sentence to read:
‘If your Warlord has the Chaos Knights keyword, Chaos Knights
Super-heavy Detachments in your army gain the following
Command Benefits: ‘Select one of the following: +3 Command
Points if your Warlord is part of this Detachment; +6 Command
Points if your Warlord is part of this Detachment and has the
Titanic keyword.’
So you'll still be down 3CP if for some reason you have a mix of Titanic and non-Titanic units and choose to make a non-Titanic unit your warlord...but...I don't think I've ever seen that be done in a pure-knight list.
If you're going pure knights you really need a lot of wardogs. I much prefer the experience of running soup: I've tried World eaters, Thousand Sons and Daemons in 9e, and I'd rate WE as most fun and Daemons as most competitive. I've run 3 exalted GDs and 2 Questoris, and 2 Exalted GDs and 3 Questoris, always with nurglings. Undecided which works better, but it's probably 3/2.
bmsattler wrote: Knights can start with the full 12 if your Warlord is in the Super-Heavy Detachment and you have no other detachments costing CP.
Hmm. I didn't see anything clarifying that so I started with 9. Like I said, it was my first game of 9th!
The smaller board did help, but man...having to hold back to hold objectives...is un-knightly. I may try a more aggressive list with more rampagers and just try and surge forward and hit the enemy before they can move out next time.
Chaos Knights errata wrote:*Pages 62 – Traitoris Lances, rules text
Change the last sentence to read:
‘If your Warlord has the Chaos Knights keyword, Chaos Knights
Super-heavy Detachments in your army gain the following
Command Benefits: ‘Select one of the following: +3 Command
Points if your Warlord is part of this Detachment; +6 Command
Points if your Warlord is part of this Detachment and has the
Titanic keyword.’
So you'll still be down 3CP if for some reason you have a mix of Titanic and non-Titanic units and choose to make a non-Titanic unit your warlord...but...I don't think I've ever seen that be done in a pure-knight list.
I didn't think to check FAQs, lol! Didn't think there would be one so soon.
Was looking at the power levels. and point changes in the new FAQ. Our Chaos Tyrant with volcano cannon is as cheap as the imperial version now at 635 points. That is rather interesting. You can take a superheavy detachment with that as the warlord, and 2 war dogs, and you would still have at least 1000 points to take something else in another detachment if you want to soup.
Another thing I just thought about. I know the missions have been tough for us. But has anyone considered taking a superheavy detachment of 1 Tyrant, and like 6 war dogs ? The war dogs are not titanic. So, even if they kill the Tyrant, they can't max points VP for that titan killing secondary. And 1 titanic and 6 war dogs can run around and cover a lot more ground and objectives than say 4 titanics.
Also, you can place say 2 of the war dogs in reserve so they come in from the flanks on either turn 2 or 3.
Also another point about reserves. Has another considered putting a Harpoon and confrag cannon Tyrant into reserve? Based on the faq, it costs 4 CP which is hefty. But we get more CP to play with anyway in the new edition.
A confrag cannon Tyrant's guns are all mid ranged anyway. So, it gets no benefit starting on the board on 1st turn to be shot at. Coming in on turn 2 at the flanks of the midboard, 9 inches away almost seems like the perfect range for it. Literally all of its guns (even the 4 melta guns), will be in range the minute it comes from strategic reserves 9 inches from the opponent. And it would be able to roast a ton of stuff. Then pay full tilt to make a 7 inch charge onto a mid board objective and kill even more stuff. It sounds really cool to me. The table size is smaller now, and knights can step over infantry models to get where they want. So, once the knight is in the midboard, just about anything will be within its reach from there.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Was looking at the power levels. and point changes in the new FAQ. Our Chaos Tyrant with volcano cannon is as cheap as the imperial version now at 635 points. That is rather interesting. You can take a superheavy detachment with that as the warlord, and 2 war dogs, and you would still have at least 1000 points to take something else in another detachment if you want to soup.
Another thing I just thought about. I know the missions have been tough for us. But has anyone considered taking a superheavy detachment of 1 Tyrant, and like 6 war dogs ? The war dogs are not titanic. So, even if they kill the Tyrant, they can't max points VP for that titan killing secondary. And 1 titanic and 6 war dogs can run around and cover a lot more ground and objectives than say 4 titanics.
Also, you can place say 2 of the war dogs in reserve so they come in from the flanks on either turn 2 or 3.
Also another point about reserves. Has another considered putting a Harpoon and confrag cannon Tyrant into reserve? Based on the faq, it costs 4 CP which is hefty. But we get more CP to play with anyway in the new edition.
A confrag cannon Tyrant's guns are all mid ranged anyway. So, it gets no benefit starting on the board on 1st turn to be shot at. Coming in on turn 2 at the flanks of the midboard, 9 inches away almost seems like the perfect range for it. Literally all of its guns (even the 4 melta guns), will be in range the minute it comes from strategic reserves 9 inches from the opponent. And it would be able to roast a ton of stuff. Then pay full tilt to make a 7 inch charge onto a mid board objective and kill even more stuff. It sounds really cool to me. The table size is smaller now, and knights can step over infantry models to get where they want. So, once the knight is in the midboard, just about anything will be within its reach from there.
also, with the conflagration tyrant - none of its primary weapons are blast, so you can still use them, and the double meltas in CC.
I was thinking about melee knights yesterday... Infernal household might be good for more melee centric knights. The infernal demon surge can choose to give a +2 to move and a +1 to advance and charge. Combine that with full tilt (advance and charge), and then take warlord eager for the kill that gives yet another +1 to advance and charge. Now you have a total of +2 move, +2 to advance and then +2 to charge (which is a net +6).
So, your infernal knight with the surge will have a treat range of 12 + 6 + 3d6 ... lol. That is a maximum potential treat range of 36 inches lol. If there is space, you could literally be deep within enemy deployment zone with one move advance + charge.
Plus as a dreadblade, you can pick negative dreadpact damnations that basically don't matter to a melee knight like warp rage (as if a melee knight will ever fall back from combat lol).
Meanwhile, some dreadblade pacts like Archfiend are amazing on such a melee knight. Imagine having a treat range of 36 inches already, and then after you wipe out something in combat, to have a potential heroic intervention range of 6 inches lol,
That relic chain blade The Teeth That Hungers is also amazing on a melee knight. its like a chainsword, so you always get a +1 attack from it, even if you used your stompy feet against some infantry. Also, the same warlord trait Eager for the kill also gives you a +1 attack for being wholly in opponent's deployment zone. With a 36 inches treat range, not going to be difficult to get into enemy deployment zone and the negative from the relic chain blade, which is it may cause a mortal wound on you if it doesn't kill a model, is much less of a negative on a melee knight that can and will be fighting in melee every round.
So, on turn 1, an infernal Rampager with the warlord trait and relic blade which I described above can move advance and charge potentially 36 inches to end up wholly within enemy deployment zone, and after that, will have 7 relic reaper chain blade attacks (which explodes for more hits on 6s) and do str 16, -4 AP, damage 6 attacks on a WS of 2... lol
Oh, and screens don't really work that well on such a knight, since it can literally move over infantry models. Can it charge over infantry models as well? (Not sure). anyway, an opponent who is playing you the first time and doesn't deploy properly is in for a world of hurt if you go first lol.
Run a custom household with Abominable Constitution and swap in the Quicksilver Throne. Move 15”, advance D6+3, charge 2D6+3. Averages out to 31”. You won’t kill as much on arrival, and I have to assume that gimmick will only work on someone once, but still.
Its very fierce if your opponent isn't prepared for it. I almost feel as if I shouldn't be explaining what exactly it can do before the game... :X
Anyway, I only have 3 knights and zero wardogs, so I am kind of fiddling around with lists which are 3 knights plus soup. Because I am not sure if going all in knights makes it just so hard to play the mission.
So, I don't know if I should be posting this here or on the daemons thread. I am thinking of 3 knights souped with daemons to shore up the knights weaknesses, which is they have trouble with objectives because they prefer to be fighting rather than sitting on objectives.
So, whats a good nurgle patrol for maybe 500 to 600 points to have that can shore up knight weaknesses ? I would definitely go nurgling, but what else? Even a mixed daemons patrol can be considered. Or maybe tons of horrors instead? Because knights prefer to kill big stuff or elite stuff instead of horde infantry.
If maybe even a nurgle mixed CSM faction instead of nurgle daemons so that I have more options. Because beyond the nurglings, not sure what else would synergise with a 3 knights main force.
Expanding on that, maybe instead a nurgle patrol souped in with 2 nurglings troops and 1 pox walker troop. Then a plague burst crawler and a Nurgle CSM sorceror. So, the Plague burst crawler can stay in the backfield, lob shells and be resilient. 1 pox walker troop also as backfield objective holder. And the 2 nurgling troops as mid board objective holders. And the nurgle CSM sorceror provides psychic.
grouchoben wrote: I soup knights and daemons/csm quite a bit, and if you only have 500-600pts to spare, I think you can't really improve upon:
Exalted Lord of Change, Impossible Robe
5xNurglings
5xNurglings
5xNurglings
550pts, -4CP
So based on your experience, do you think the power of 3 knights is enough? Because other than being objective holders, the nurglings will literally be nothing else.
Hmm, interesting. So do you run the shooty Tyrant or the harpoon tyrant? I am really tempted to spend the 3 CP to reserve a harpoon Tyrant to see how that goes.
With some very mean all vehicle lists kicking around, I think a lot of lists are bringing more anti-tank these days. I don't know if I would call 3 knights unfriendly ... lol
I don't really run tyrants that much tbh, I much prefer knights in the 400s range.
Agreed on the anti-tank meta, with eradicator spam being a bit of a pain for knights.
Most of my lists leave me with 695pts for soup - daemons fit okay, as do zerkers, and while nurglings bring some of the best obsec in the game, I've had more success letting zerkers profit in the shadow of 3 big knights, and pulling surviving rhinos to sit on base objectives T2 onwards. It's a hell or high water kind of list, as your opponent can maybe kill your rhinos or a knight turn one, but either way you can inflict a big damage spike turn two.
Hey guys,
A few things to report: I’ve just finished my 4th game of 9th and second with Chaos Knights. The game now being all about objectives can’t be overstated and at first I felt I would really struggle with that. In the end, I think Knights (especially the Valiant Tyrant!) are very well suited to threatening and flattening any enemy units that have to venture to any non-home objectives. The Conflagration Cannon in particular is a melter of all that is objective secured. I focused on running durability on the Tyrant, going Vow of Dominance, Veil and Herpetrax for the Zombie warlord trait.
Looking to the future , I’m planning on running WarDog heavy, all using the glaive/melta with Harrying Packs and the Constitution traits. Since we don’t have bodies unless we ally them in, having ultrafast wardogs that can fall forward out of combat and still charge seems to be a nightmare for opponents trying to hold objectives.
Looks awesome, in a 1k game, I’m not sure most armies have many good answers for two
Knights, let alone ones that are running at you to smash your brains in. I’m not sure Pride Fueled Fury is the best choice but I could be very wrong seeing in how many times I’ve had a low wound knight stumble into combat and completely crap the bed.
Is there a reason we wouldn’t play 3 x Shooty Tyrant with the Endless Torment trait? Isn’t this enough fire power to really take down anything threatening to them in a single round of shooting and leave us about 90 points for summoning nurglings?
Are Chaos Knights competitive? I just picked up this battlegroup and the first thing I noticed is a decided lack of firepower. Other than the Tyrant of course.
Of course Chaos Knights are competitive. Too much focus is put on lists and results from high level play. The reality of large tournaments is that the granular nature of armies and lists only really comes into play at the top tier of the events. Player skill trumps army book choice and it isn’t close.
Knights (both loyal and chaos) are a unique skew army that some folks and armies just can’t deal with. If a player can’t play around mass T8 wounds with invulnerable saves, you’re probably going to win. If they can down a knight a turn or *gasp* even two a turn, you’re probably going to lose. This is why pure knights lists aren’t taken often and why knights with allies were much more popular in 8th. Allies used to serve two roles: command point generation and board control with screening. Those were the main two weaknesses of knights in 8th and allies fixed that.
In 9th, taking allies costs command points but are probably still needed to actually score on the primary and complete secondary actions. This is a discussion that is all but dead on these boards, especially on the imperial side where it’s basically doom and gloom.
IMO, chaos demons in the flavor of Nurglings shore up a big problem with pure chaos knights. Early deployment of ob sec units on objectives can start a scary uphill battle for your opponents. Again, people focus on lists when they should be focusing on a plan.
The problem with Knights is that you don't have to kill them in order to beat them. You just have to out-score them. They are bad at holding objectives and scoring secondary objectives, and offer really good secondary objectives to the opponent. Until something changes I think Knights are toward the bottom of all army options.
I’ve been working on some very Warglaive heavy lists using a custom Iconoclast house running Constitution and Pride fueled Fury. The list runs around with the idea of having very quick melee focused Wardogs as the primary threat backed up by 2 Thermal Knights, 1 thermal knight/1 desecrator or 1 shooty tyrant, each with enough points to summon at least 1 (or in some cases three!) units of nurglings onto objectives off of one of the shooting big boys.
The army build disincentives taking titan Hunter (especially the single tyrant build) and wants your opponent to take bring it down instead. Since your trait allows severely wounded Dogs to move at full and fight at basically the same efficiency with even 1w left, your opponent can’t simply ‘disable’ your dogs into oblivion.
Seems like a fun one to play and will plan on reporting back on how it goes, have a game against Ad Mech in a week or so.
I love the list idea, they can’t max Titan Hunter and as I said, I love the melee WarDog. I’m not sold on paying more points for a worse load out (the auto cannons) and if you have the arms magnetized, I would try running them all as Warglaives. What traits are you using?
Brymm wrote: I love the list idea, they can’t max Titan Hunter and as I said, I love the melee WarDog. I’m not sold on paying more points for a worse load out (the auto cannons) and if you have the arms magnetized, I would try running them all as Warglaives.
No, not magnetised, but I've always found the autocannons quite good.
The list of the premade households and custom traits are available both on BattleScribe and the Warhammer 40K app and I believe the actual pages are linked somewhere on Imgur.
I don’t have a strong pull to any of the premade households as each of the specific relics and warlord traits aren’t that good IMO. The custom trait chart is pretty cool though and you can take some pretty incredible bonuses. Endless Torment is a custom trait that allows a reroll for the number of shots of a random gun PER GUN is just crazy, upping damage across the board for the whole army.
Alas mobility and survivability to get to and score objectives seems to be paramount in 9th, so I tend to focus on traits to support that.
Brymm wrote: The list of the premade households and custom traits are available both on BattleScribe and the Warhammer 40K app
I do use Battlescribe, I've just not really thought to look through the Engine War additions.
Brymm wrote: Endless Torment is a custom trait that allows a reroll for the number of shots of a random gun PER GUN is just crazy, upping damage across the board for the whole army.
Now that does sound useful for autocannons and thermal weapons (of which my list has 9 in total).
I should clarify, you reroll a SINGLE die per gun, so if the auto cannons are 2d3 shots per gun, you can reroll a single d3 per gun. This still ups their productivity quite a bit, it’s not as good as rerolling all of them.
It really shines on dual thermal knights who can reroll both of the thermals and the missile rack up top.
Personally, I have been building towards a single melee despoiler with melta and Stormspears and a bunch of the most expensive War Dogs with a patrol of TS under the Cult of Duplicity. I have been building with House Lucaris mostly.
Why? Iconoclast rules increase the melee capacity of the War Dogs, and I have been giddy at the idea of a despoiler that auto hits in melee, striking first in combat. Which means, do I want to autohit with 6 chainswords or 18 stomps?
Why the most expensive War Dogs and the melta\Stormspear on the Despoiler? None of them are blast, meaning that I can use them in melee. Why the meltas? A disencentive for melee. Why TS\Cult of Duplicity? DP with Death Hex (No Invuls) & Sorcerous Facade (Redeploy\DS).
Adding 1 to hit rolls that are already 2+ doesn’t make them automatically hit, a natural 1 always fails. Stacking a +1 to a 2+ WS allows you to bypass a single -1 to hit modifier though. If you’re using a 2+ WS model and want to squeeze the last bit out of them, you probably want to get a reroll 1s buff on them, again unless you expect to be fighting a -1 hit army.
On the wardogs though, since they are 3+ WS a +1 to hit buff is HUGE, and I imagine it will probably make the whole plan worth it.
So I haven't played 9th (at all really) and just started putting together a semi-fun list. I wanted to run a super-heavy detachment of only armiger moiraxs... Battlescribe is throwing me an error as I don't have a character in the detachment(?) but when I reference the CK Codex, Engine war and the 9th edition tome (and faqs) i'm not finding where it needs me to take a character to complete this detachment.
I must be missing something very obvious - can a kind soul point me in the right direction (Page number or FAQ)?
As a P.S. to make this CK relevant - is there a widely regarded 'best' loadout for moiraxs after the IA update? I've run my titanics as iconoclast historically (taking mortals sucks) but by the same token i'm thinking about giving infernal a whirl with the lightning locks - the negative 2 AP with ignore cover etc. (effectively neg 3 against stealthy etc.) looks promising - and I can pump one gun per armiger (For d3 mortals though [ouch!]).
orkswubwub wrote: So I haven't played 9th (at all really) and just started putting together a semi-fun list. I wanted to run a super-heavy detachment of only armiger moiraxs... Battlescribe is throwing me an error as I don't have a character in the detachment(?) but when I reference the CK Codex, Engine war and the 9th edition tome (and faqs) i'm not finding where it needs me to take a character to complete this detachment.
I must be missing something very obvious - can a kind soul point me in the right direction (Page number or FAQ)?
As a P.S. to make this CK relevant - is there a widely regarded 'best' loadout for moiraxs after the IA update? I've run my titanics as iconoclast historically (taking mortals sucks) but by the same token i'm thinking about giving infernal a whirl with the lightning locks - the negative 2 AP with ignore cover etc. (effectively neg 3 against stealthy etc.) looks promising - and I can pump one gun per armiger (For d3 mortals though [ouch!]).
try making one of them a dreadblade, or barring that consider taking a desecrator for the rerolls. A single titanic model isn't a terrible investment... especially if you choose to keep it in reserve until turn 3.
Thanks for the feedback - doesn't adding the titanic make it start costing 6 CP instead of 3CP? Seems a heavy investment. I wanted to run it with magnus who is kind of my pseudo knight.
P.S. Thanks for the dreadblade suggestion cleared it up in battlescribe - i found the sentence where a character is chosen (even a wardog) on page 62 of ck codex for super heavy detachments.
So the list I'm thinking of is:
3x keeper of secrets
3x 10x deamonettes
Magnus
4 Moirax armigers (1 unit of 2, 2 units of 1) - All infernal with dual lighting locks
Basically just go for objectives / banners if needed with daemonettes and sit in back field with armigers while magnus gives access to deathhex and some mortal wound output (plays midfield with armigers) while the KOS (all exalted - likely -1 to wound) fly up the board and distract opponent for hopefully 2-3 turns... I would run the dreadblade with the +1 CP Strat so I'm only paying -2 to take the super heavy detachment - adding the exalted for the KOS I think the list arrives with 7 CP (Magnus will be warlord).
There is some flex as the 4th moirax armiger could become an aegis for each KOS and inject 3x fiends... have to play around with it a bit.
With the moirax's kitted this way I was thinking of going Warpvision custom house - the extra AP against termies etc. in cover (takes them from a 1 up to a 4up) might make the lightning locks a bit more meaty when they connect (should be wounding most non-custodes on 3?)
The other way I was looking at it would be to maybe take all graviton pulsars and go with either endless torment (more consistent guns) or be daring and think about dark forging for the range + 1 other houshold trait (going from 24 to 30 inch range) -> not sure how relevant that would be though given the smaller boards now and the already high base movement for the armiger (12 inches).
Currently leaning towards the lightning locks - the list i'm running does 'ok' with elites (KOS and magnus) but might need more horde clear. At the same time the graviton pulsars add some punch for fatties even wounding on 5+ if a few get through at -3 AP and 3 DMG (ouch).
Thoughts on the pulsars vs locks? Should i be running a mix of moiraxs (2 with x2 gravitons and 2 with x2 locks)? That could be thing... Would have to figure out the household trait though... I need a few to sit on the objectives as the daemonettes will die to any and all direct/indirect fire.
Is Magnus titanic? Moirax have a rule that allows them to heroically intervene 6 inches to help big guys. I might be getting their rule wrong (it might be house specific) but I'm away from my books right now.
I am going to be getting one of the Apoc Knights boxes from a friend, and going to use it as a start of a Chaos Knights army.
So, I'll have a tyrant and two Autocannon Wardogs.
So, that's 1000pts right there ha ha.
What's the general idea on what I should fill the other 1045pts with? Lots of wardogs, some wardogs and a another titanic knight or two? Another Tyrant?
How about leaving aside 100ish points to summon a unit of deamons to hold objectives with?
jaredb wrote: I am going to be getting one of the Apoc Knights boxes from a friend, and going to use it as a start of a Chaos Knights army.
So, I'll have a tyrant and two Autocannon Wardogs.
So, that's 1000pts right there ha ha.
What's the general idea on what I should fill the other 1045pts with? Lots of wardogs, some wardogs and a another titanic knight or two? Another Tyrant?
How about leaving aside 100ish points to summon a unit of deamons to hold objectives with?
How about setting aside 200-300 points for a small detachment of Thousand Suns so you can turn off Invulnerable Saves? (Death Hex, which is a DP only power) 200 points for the DP, 90-100 for a unit of Rubrics to hold objectives.
Dont forget you can summon deamons if you want to, they dont have to be a seperate detachment as they can be summoned by any chaos character and our knights do count as characters if you give them a relic or warlotd trait
For the pure knights players who use war dogs. How many war dogs do you feel is enough for a pure chaos knight army? Is 4 war dogs plus the big knights enough? Or do you think need to run even more.
The war dogs are the ones you use as the first wave, so called right? With maybe just one on a backline objective, so that your other knights can move forward?
I’ve used Wardogs quite a bit and even more so in 9th. You have to be in plenty of places. 4 big knights or 3 with a few dogs never feels like enough board coverage. I have been using a shorty tyrant, double thermal, then filling out the rest with thermal/glaive dogs, using iconoclast with constitution and pride fueled fury. Using that list, I’m able to get upfield fast in the matchups that warrant it, the dogs can use obscuring terrain and charge weakly defensed objectives.
Damaging the Wardogs doesn’t really matter until they are dead, they move at 15” all game and never hit less than a +4 in combat, and usually are swinging with lots of attacks.
Plus the tyrant and thermal knight will punish poorly positioned heavy units. I buff up my tyrant with dominance, veil and the obsec trait.
I run 2 titanic knights (a Despoiler and a Desecrator) and 6 War Dogs (2 with autocannons and the others with thermal spear/chain cleaver). I've not had a chance to play them in 9th yet though.
Yeah, I actually wonder if 2 knights and 6 wardogs might be more optimal. But wow, this means I need to get more wardogs! lol
I would also make a case for only running thermal spear wardogs though. Even if you end up using one to baby sit a rear objective. Instead of running autocannon wardog. The reason is that with terrain rules these days, it unlikely you can to shoot 60 inches at what you want. 30 inches range is good enough to a midfield objective. More importantly, a thermal spear wardog has the melee power to fend off and fight against possible deep strikers which are the more dangerous threat I feel. Plus they are cheaper to boot.
Moirax with two lightning locks are more likely to stand off a moderate melee threat than the thermal spear wardog. Their overwatch is actually kinda scary, while the Wardog's melee threat won't matter if it dies before it can swing. I guess it depends on whether your opponent has mechanics to make their deep strike charges reliable or not.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Yeah, I actually wonder if 2 knights and 6 wardogs might be more optimal. But wow, this means I need to get more wardogs! lol
I would also make a case for only running thermal spear wardogs though. Even if you end up using one to baby sit a rear objective. Instead of running autocannon wardog. The reason is that with terrain rules these days, it unlikely you can to shoot 60 inches at what you want. 30 inches range is good enough to a midfield objective. More importantly, a thermal spear wardog has the melee power to fend off and fight against possible deep strikers which are the more dangerous threat I feel. Plus they are cheaper to boot.
Aren't we still allowed to shoot the autocannons in melee?
Yeah but that chain glaive is the correct melee profile: str 12, ap -3 3D, iconoclast on the charge makes then ap4 with 5 attacks, 6 with pride fueled fury under half wounds. I know we see less and less aggressors and centurions now, but there are lots of units that do not want to get charged by a melee WarDog.
LORD OF WAR Knight Desecrator (410): Warlord, Character, Heavy stubber, Thunderstrike gauntlet, Titanic feet
ARTIFACTS OF TYRANNY: The diamonas
WARLORD TRAITS: Warp-haunted hull
STRATAGEMS: Vow of dominance (2CP)
Knight Despoiler (500): Character, Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer, Ironstorm missile pod, Meltagun, Thermal cannon, Titanic feet
ARTIFACTS OF TYRANNY: Tzeentchian pyrothrone
STRATAGEMS: Corrupted heirlooms (1CP)
War Dogs
War Dog (140): Meltagun, Thermal spear and reaper chain-cleaver
War Dog (140): Meltagun, Thermal spear and reaper chain-cleaver
War Dogs
War Dog (140): Meltagun, Thermal spear and reaper chain-cleaver
War Dog (160): Meltagun, Two War Dog autocannons
War Dogs
War Dog (140): Meltagun, Thermal spear and reaper chain-cleaver
War Dog (160): Meltagun, Two War Dog autocannons
I like the idea of a single Dreadblade or a pair of Dreadblads being cursed to be swept around the galaxy by the winds of Chaos. The army list should field one or (maybe) two chunky Chaos Knights and a bunch of daemons summoned up by the storm.
So, I am just wondering if this kind of Chaos soup could be built to have any semblance of competitive viability, and how I should start planning for a list at a commonly played level, say 1800 points.
Which Chaos Knights would be most useful in a role as commander/oversized distraction carnifexes, and what kind of daemon support would suit them best?
I'm really fond of the double-Avenger Vow of Carnage knight with the Rune to give it a 5++ in close combat. I'd probably give it Infernal Quest for the super-ObSec as well.
If you're going beyond a single knight you'll need to fill out a super-heavy detachment, perhaps with a Wardog or two. I also really like a Knight Maegera with the Khornate Target and Knight Diabolus.
On paper, I also like the idea of a knight with the Gauntlet of Ascension. The full rerolls to hit and wound are awesome for a knight, and the possibility of using Deathgrip against some of the overpowered Drukari characters out there makes me smile.
I'll allow others to comment on the daemon support, I'm not very knowledgeable on that subject. All I'll say is that nurglings seem to offer a lot of board presence cheaply, and knights really benefit from that.
Edit: Both the double-Avenger and Maegera would benefit from the custom household traits Bold Tyrants and Pride-Fueled Fury. Extra AP at 12'' really benefits the Avenger cannon and the lightning cannon, not to mention the rad cleanser.
I just saw a leak on the revamped secondaries. For Titan Hunter now, you only get 4 VP for killing one titanic and 9 VP for killing two.
So, if you only take 1 Titanic, it actually makes it worthless for the opponent to bring Titan Hunter. Even even if you brought two Titanic units, its kind of a wash. 9VP is about average for what you can get from doing okish on a secondary.
This is kinda huge for Knight lists. We can bring 2 titanic and fill out the rest with War Dogs and actually, our opponent will only get a max of 9 off us from Titan Hunter.
If we take a superheavy detachment and soup in another patrol of CSM or DG or something, as long as we keep to two superheavies or less, we are actually not giving away any obvious free secondaries.
(Btw, I thought of a kind of counter Drukhari meta play. If we bring one or two Infernal chaos knights and storm both up the field on turn 1, then pay the d3 damage to make them T9. Dark Lances are going to have a very difficult time penetrating. They are Str 8 trying to wound a T9 knight. So they can only wound on 5s. Plus we can rotate ion shield for a 4++. I think you need to shoot a heck of a ton of dark lances through to get through something that has a T9 and 4++, And Drukhari melee is good, but probably won't do much against T8 right? They will need 6s to wound unless they have poison. They also don't like to get out and fight on turn 1. Turn 1 is mostly shooting and getting into position for Durkhari.)
I played my first two games of 9th edition with my Chaos Knights yesterday...
I thought I wouldn't like the obscuring terrain rule or the new overwatch mechanism, but actually both work okay. The main disadvantage being a Chaos Knights player is not having obsec. It'll be good when we get our codex and some more faction-specific secondaries too. I went with assassinate, attrition and domination yesterday.
Chaos soup running a bunch of A. Constitution and Bold tyrants (I think) Wardogs with Magnus and some demons just finished 4th or 5th in a major this weekend in an article on Goonhammer.
I want to field a thousand sons detachment with sorcerer (teleporting with sorcerers facade), daemon prince, 3x spawns, 2x helldrakes and combine this with 7 wardogs. A successful tournament list with the same setup includes this:
Chaos knight super heavy detachment *Household?*
War Dog: stubber, thermal spear and chain cleaver (WT: infernal quest, Relic: Veil of medriel)
2x Wardog moirax: Graviton pulsar, Seige claw, rad cleanser
2x Wardog moirax: Graviton pulsar, Seige claw, rad cleanser
2x Wardog moirax: Graviton pulsar, Seige claw, rad cleanser
Is this a good setup? Would any of you switch something (units or weapons)? Psychic awakening engine war book got some nice bonuses to pick from but I struggle to find the best setup..
I know abominable constitution is one half of any War Dog heavy list. Move 15 is crazy good with never degrading movement. I use Pride Fueled Fury with it to just turn each WarDog into a threat, even at 1 wound.
You could try A. C. With infamous hereditary or harrying packs, each has their use. I like infamous if you’re using lots of thermal/glaive dogs because hitting with those melta shots is key to popping raiders and the like.
Brymm wrote: I know abominable constitution is one half of any War Dog heavy list. Move 15 is crazy good with never degrading movement. I use Pride Fueled Fury with it to just turn each WarDog into a threat, even at 1 wound.
You could try A. C. With infamous hereditary or harrying packs, each has their use. I like infamous if you’re using lots of thermal/glaive dogs because hitting with those melta shots is key to popping raiders and the like.
Considering the 'Abominable constitution' and 'harrying packs' combo. Constant movement and the extra flexibility is good.
I was also thinking about 'Endless torment' and get that single reroll for the amount of shots with my Graviton pulsar and rad cleanser combi.
I've been playing every now and then with single Despoiler and couple of wardogs in a soup list but recently I've been thinking about expanding to mono-Knights. Does anyone have advice if I should take at 2000 points
1 Tyrant
2 Despoilers
3 Wardogs
or
3 Despoilers
4 Wardogs
Does a Tyrant have enough firepower to justify taking it instead of another Despoiler and another Wardog? It sure loses in wounds and board presence.
Myytti666 wrote: I've been playing every now and then with single Despoiler and couple of wardogs in a soup list but recently I've been thinking about expanding to mono-Knights. Does anyone have advice if I should take at 2000 points
1 Tyrant
2 Despoilers
3 Wardogs
or
3 Despoilers
4 Wardogs
Does a Tyrant have enough firepower to justify taking it instead of another Despoiler and another Wardog? It sure loses in wounds and board presence.
I'd definitely go with route 2. Personally, I go with a single warlord Despoiler, a single armiger (dreadblade for heroic intervention), and a slew of Helverin. in addition to my TS auxilaries.
I think that there’s not much of a difference between the output/firepower/role between a Tyrant and Despoiler, so if you’re trying to really be efficient, Despoiler all the way. If you’re not doing Forgeworld, it seems that three double thermal Iconoclast knights of whatever you want for your house trait, plus Wardogs to fill is probably the best list you can really make. They are brutal in melee with the bonus to stomp feet, put out a lot of decent range melta death and don’t break the bank points wise.
Again, a pretty high place finish recently at a GT using lots of thermal/glaive Wardogs to back up Magnus. If you can think of a big Knight to replace Magnus, you could probably replicate some of that success.
Some food for thought.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah three double thermal knights with the cheap rocket tops, plus 4 melee Wardogs with melta is exactly 2000 points of twisted steal and sex appeal. I suggest either Endless Torment or the infamous heredity/pin point cruelty combo!
Brymm wrote: I think that there’s not much of a difference between the output/firepower/role between a Tyrant and Despoiler, so if you’re trying to really be efficient, Despoiler all the way. If you’re not doing Forgeworld, it seems that three double thermal Iconoclast knights of whatever you want for your house trait, plus Wardogs to fill is probably the best list you can really make. They are brutal in melee with the bonus to stomp feet, put out a lot of decent range melta death and don’t break the bank points wise.
Again, a pretty high place finish recently at a GT using lots of thermal/glaive Wardogs to back up Magnus. If you can think of a big Knight to replace Magnus, you could probably replicate some of that success.
Some food for thought.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah three double thermal knights with the cheap rocket tops, plus 4 melee Wardogs with melta is exactly 2000 points of twisted steal and sex appeal. I suggest either Endless Torment or the infamous heredity/pin point cruelty combo!
Alright, thanks for the tips. I have never tried double thermal knight. I'm just concerned if they have enough shots compared to battle cannon and gatling cannon to deal with infantry hordes if the enemy has no vehicles or monsters. Or do you just stomp the hordes in melee? How do you deal with storm shield infantry? Feels like the high quality melta shots are wasted on invulnerable saves. I suppose you can easily remove invulnerable save with Death hex in soup but how about mono-Knights.
The idea has always been that any Iconoclast knight is an elite melee unit in that it puts out 15 st 8 ap-3 1d3 d attacks on the charge. That just smashes so much face without needing to buy a sword or fist. Since those slots are free now on the arms, the cheapest shooting weapons have been the thermals, and in 8th they were by FAR the cheapest option. Now at 75 an arm instead of 50, I think running a avenger and thermal is a fine option, but the point remains the same: you are a melee army that can also shoot.
As far as shooting goes, 6d6 thermal cannon shots is brutal fire power that should be aimed at whatever dedicated anti knight things they have. Being 36” range on a 12” chassis means you can usually position to get shots at what you need dead, more so if you go Constitution or Dark Forging.
I believe three with double-thermals and the indirect missle pod on top, along with four Warglaive/Wardogs is right at 2000 points. There are a lot of good options for build-your-house, but the Endless Torment (re-roll number of shots, per weapon) really goes far with that particular load-out.
I'm not afraid to shoot thermal cannons at Eradicators or even things like Incubi, especially if there aren't any anti-vehicle vehicles out there. I believe that Knights really need to have good target selection, but its a little easier for us in that there are likely to be some units out there that don't threaten us very much.
You are paying for really good melee, and you've got a good bit of shooting that you can use every turn with fall back shoot/charge at will. You've got to use everything to the fullest to overcome the low model count that Knights suffer from.
I will admit that the trio double melta has merit. I've probably pigeon-holed myself by bringing a patrol of TSons for Death Hex, the ability to 'turn off' invul saves.
Given 9th edition is about getting VP and not about killing. I do think its best to soup in something to help with objectives. I think its fine to go Superheavy detachment of knights. But souping in another detachment of CSM or daemons or DG or TS will help a lot on the objective front.
I agree but we can do it with super mobile Wardogs. They excel at the “ol’ charge and hack up whatever is on the objective to steal it” thing. The melee WarDog at 135 or 140 is a bargain for something so fast, tough and Killy. Going three double thermals and four melee Wardogs come in a 2k and a list that I imagine is even better would lean more into Wardogs instead of bigger knights. The times I’ve played 9 melee dogs, the games have been pretty fast and brutal lopsided wins.
We have a big event here in Michigan I’m starting to prepare for where I plan on using pure CK and unless we get a new book before then, it’s gonna be a ton of Wardogs. I’ll take some notes and post some results from practice games from here until the event in October.
Brymm wrote: I agree but we can do it with super mobile Wardogs. They excel at the “ol’ charge and hack up whatever is on the objective to steal it” thing. The melee WarDog at 135 or 140 is a bargain for something so fast, tough and Killy. Going three double thermals and four melee Wardogs come in a 2k and a list that I imagine is even better would lean more into Wardogs instead of bigger knights. The times I’ve played 9 melee dogs, the games have been pretty fast and brutal lopsided wins.
We have a big event here in Michigan I’m starting to prepare for where I plan on using pure CK and unless we get a new book before then, it’s gonna be a ton of Wardogs. I’ll take some notes and post some results from practice games from here until the event in October.
Sounds great! Do keep us posted! I look forward to your notes and results! I would advice to try out Kornate target relic. A lot of lists are relying on invul nowadays and since knights can't really do mortal wounds, we need something to get through invuls. Otherwise, that big block of deathwing terminators will be unkillable even to knights.
I've played 2 games against Space Wolves in the last month and won both! Statistically, the Psychic Awakening endless torment rule and the 9th edition storm shield nerf seems to have really shifted the balance between Chaos Knights and Space Wolves.
I drew level on VP by the end of turn 3 in this week's game, and by that time the cumulative annihilation meant turn 4 was a massacre. Kind of the opposite way round to what the tactics videos tell you. That was with the 1,800 pt list I posted earlier - 1 Desecrator, 1 Despoiler and 6 War Dogs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Right now I'm thinking about increasing my army to 2,000 points. I wish GW made rules and models for Sacristans. Having a support vehicle that could repair knights mid-game would be awesome.
Brymm wrote: I agree but we can do it with super mobile Wardogs. They excel at the “ol’ charge and hack up whatever is on the objective to steal it” thing. The melee WarDog at 135 or 140 is a bargain for something so fast, tough and Killy. Going three double thermals and four melee Wardogs come in a 2k and a list that I imagine is even better would lean more into Wardogs instead of bigger knights. The times I’ve played 9 melee dogs, the games have been pretty fast and brutal lopsided wins.
We have a big event here in Michigan I’m starting to prepare for where I plan on using pure CK and unless we get a new book before then, it’s gonna be a ton of Wardogs. I’ll take some notes and post some results from practice games from here until the event in October.
Sounds great! Do keep us posted! I look forward to your notes and results! I would advice to try out Kornate target relic. A lot of lists are relying on invul nowadays and since knights can't really do mortal wounds, we need something to get through invuls. Otherwise, that big block of deathwing terminators will be unkillable even to knights.
Oh I will be keep you guys up to date. We also have a 2k team tournament on the Friday of that weekend, where two teammates each bring 1k of an army. We’re scored on theme, sportsmanship and painting and each is weighted as much as actually winning. My son and I are playing chaos knights and Salamanders. The theme is redemption! He’s purging a planet and my chaos knight house was shunned and betrayed by the dark gods in their moment of need, they are going out in a blaze of glory in hopes of redemption in the eyes of the emperor. Should be awesome. The plan for my 1k is a melee despoiler using a Gatling cannon, fist, dreadblade, relic gauntlet, eager WL trait, demonic vigor for the DB trait, house trait of A. Constitution and pride fueled fury. The rest of the list is melee WarDogs.
Gonna be sweet, the goal is just run at the opponent, probably die, explode and let my son mop up with salamanders!
Have the warmasters here had any success with taking the Tzeenchian Pyrothrone in order to take advantage of the Psychic secondaries? I'm theory-crafting that having a Rampager and a few Wardogs in the enemys face early on would allow a more shooty Questoris knight to stay in the middle and rack up points. However, I'm concerned with having a single point of failure unit hinging 15 victory points off of it.
And just to drum up some conversation, what do people currently prefer, Iconoclast vs Infernal, and why? How do you run your Knights?
Seems like a big risk to take that secondary, mainly cos our knights cannot hide. And this is not even taking into account denies.
I usually take Iconoclast. But recently I have been thinking infernal might be good too in the current meta where a lot of anti tank weapons are Str 8.
That secondary isn’t all or nothing anymore. Seems like it isn’t a crazy idea but I imagine against a decent opponent, they will target that one guy, ie the only one who can score that objective right away.
bmsattler wrote: Have the warmasters here had any success with taking the Tzeenchian Pyrothrone in order to take advantage of the Psychic secondaries? I'm theory-crafting that having a Rampager and a few Wardogs in the enemys face early on would allow a more shooty Questoris knight to stay in the middle and rack up points. However, I'm concerned with having a single point of failure unit hinging 15 victory points off of it.
And just to drum up some conversation, what do people currently prefer, Iconoclast vs Infernal, and why? How do you run your Knights?
Aside from the discussion around psychic secondaries...
This has been covered in various places before, but think carefully about the Rampager in lists with a more serious/competitive leaning.
It costs 15 points more than a melee focused Despoiler, but it is functionally identical. Stat line is the same, weapons are the same. The Rampager get's one additional rule for those points, but that rule has no real impact in the majority of games. The extra hits only apply to the Gauntlet or Chainsaw, not feet, so you're unlikely to see more than one extra hit generated (and often, none at all). The damage that the Chainsaw or Gauntlet will do anyway is such that, when they are, it's quite likely to be overkill on the target.
For that same 15 points, you could instead take the LOS ignoring carapace weapon on your melee Despoiler, and absolutely see benefit from it every turn.
The Rampager isn't bad, it's just not points efficient when you're really min-maxing. So it's only truly useful when you want an extra 'cheap' Knight, and already have three Despoilers in your list.
The final nail in it's coffin is that you can get the extra rule on your melee Despoiler, for free, via the Frenzied Attackers Household Trait.
To truly frighten an opponent with a melee threat, take the (admittedly more expensive) Magaera with that same trait, and enjoy an average of (with Iconoclast and a Warlord trait) 21Str 8, -3, D3 attacks per round.
That thing can shoot in combat, and gets to use it's invuln in melee for free too...
I'll be honest, I was mostly looking for a caddy for the Gauntlet of Ascension. Full rerolls to hit and wound, hitting on a 2+ is pretty nice. So is access to the Deathgrip strat. There are a lot of characters that it would be nice to snipe, such as Skitarii Marshals and Dark Eldar of all types. I was looking for a fast unit that could get past some screens and start removing buffing characters.
I hear what you are saying on the Rampager, and I'll look at whether I'll keep it or swap it down. The melee knights role would be to snipe characters/vehicles and draw fire away from the rest of the lance.
I do really like the Magaera and have the ability to take some. That's one reason I was asking about Iconoclast vs Infernal. The Lightning Cannon is perfect to boost to Str 8 and flat 4 damage. It feels like a difference in emphasis between melee and shooting, and shooting is a little less risky.
I take the Tzeenchian Pyrothrone, but not for that secondary. Being able to smite and deny is cool, but standing around for a whole turn doing nothing so you can perform an action isn't when you have the firepower of a knight.
My understanding of psychic actions is that they allow you to move, fight, and shoot. You just can't use any psychic powers. Otherwise I agree, its a complete waste of a knight.
A check on my understanding of Summoning: As long as I have a chaos character and some left over points, I can not move, roll the 3d6 for power level, and bring in a unit of demons without having to put them in a detachment slot? I'm also guessing that they would not get ObSec even if they were troops as that is a detachment ability?
Hi ! I was thinking about building a chaos knights list after a relative gifted me a Knight Tyrant kit.
I haven't played them before and I was wondering: If I want to build a fighty Iconoclast list with 3 big knights and 3 war dogs, should the dogs be ranged (autocannons) to stay on objectives in the back or close combat focused (chain-cleaver) to follow the big bots ?
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: Hi ! I was thinking about building a chaos knights list after a relative gifted me a Knight Tyrant kit.
I haven't played them before and I was wondering: If I want to build a fighty Iconoclast list with 3 big knights and 3 war dogs, should the dogs be ranged (autocannons) to stay on objectives in the back or close combat focused (chain-cleaver) to follow the big bots ?
It depends on how you want to play! Again, iconoclast knights without a dedicated melee weapon are still melee monsters. We have a super flexible army in that way. But something to note, a auto cannon iconoclast WarDog is okay in melee for one round, getting a decent number of high strength AP-1 attacks, but after that, those Wardogs don’t have a stomp attack. They will have 4 str 6 ap0 d1 attacks, which sucks.
After my first few games of 9th I found I needed ways to control my back field objectives to score max primary points (which is an important point because you may have read that we have a hard time with reliable secondaries), and two auto cannon Wardogs fill that role nicely. They are rarely targeted because we have lumbering giants right up in the opponent’s face turns 1-2, demanding attention.
As I posted above, I have gotten a lot of mileage focusing on more Wardogs supporting 2 larger knights, allowing me to be more places, applying pressure at different points and applying my household trait more often (think about infamous hereditary applying to more often).
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: Hi ! I was thinking about building a chaos knights list after a relative gifted me a Knight Tyrant kit.
I haven't played them before and I was wondering: If I want to build a fighty Iconoclast list with 3 big knights and 3 war dogs, should the dogs be ranged (autocannons) to stay on objectives in the back or close combat focused (chain-cleaver) to follow the big bots ?
It depends on how you want to play! Again, iconoclast knights without a dedicated melee weapon are still melee monsters. We have a super flexible army in that way. But something to note, a auto cannon iconoclast WarDog is okay in melee for one round, getting a decent number of high strength AP-1 attacks, but after that, those Wardogs don’t have a stomp attack. They will have 4 str 6 ap0 d1 attacks, which sucks.
After my first few games of 9th I found I needed ways to control my back field objectives to score max primary points (which is an important point because you may have read that we have a hard time with reliable secondaries), and two auto cannon Wardogs fill that role nicely. They are rarely targeted because we have lumbering giants right up in the opponent’s face turns 1-2, demanding attention.
As I posted above, I have gotten a lot of mileage focusing on more Wardogs supporting 2 larger knights, allowing me to be more places, applying pressure at different points and applying my household trait more often (think about infamous hereditary applying to more often).
I had exactly this setup again yesterday evening - 2 Titanic knights in the enemy's face, supported by 6 War Dogs (2 of which are the autocannon variety)...
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: Hi ! I was thinking about building a chaos knights list after a relative gifted me a Knight Tyrant kit.
I haven't played them before and I was wondering: If I want to build a fighty Iconoclast list with 3 big knights and 3 war dogs, should the dogs be ranged (autocannons) to stay on objectives in the back or close combat focused (chain-cleaver) to follow the big bots ?
It depends on how you want to play! Again, iconoclast knights without a dedicated melee weapon are still melee monsters. We have a super flexible army in that way. But something to note, a auto cannon iconoclast WarDog is okay in melee for one round, getting a decent number of high strength AP-1 attacks, but after that, those Wardogs don’t have a stomp attack. They will have 4 str 6 ap0 d1 attacks, which sucks.
After my first few games of 9th I found I needed ways to control my back field objectives to score max primary points (which is an important point because you may have read that we have a hard time with reliable secondaries), and two auto cannon Wardogs fill that role nicely. They are rarely targeted because we have lumbering giants right up in the opponent’s face turns 1-2, demanding attention.
As I posted above, I have gotten a lot of mileage focusing on more Wardogs supporting 2 larger knights, allowing me to be more places, applying pressure at different points and applying my household trait more often (think about infamous hereditary applying to more often).
Thanks !
I also thought about making a dog heavy list and taking the Harrying Packs custom house bond. Though, since I also play TS I thought about taking a rubric detachment to get rid of invulnerable saves and stick to objectives.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Seems like a big risk to take that secondary, mainly cos our knights cannot hide. And this is not even taking into account denies.
I usually take Iconoclast. But recently I have been thinking infernal might be good too in the current meta where a lot of anti tank weapons are Str 8.
I've used that for Psychic ritual with my Knights army, folks don't expect it and it's pretty easy to score if you leave enough threats elsewhere. Helps if you save a few pts to summon a psychic demon as well to cast the power.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Seems like a big risk to take that secondary, mainly cos our knights cannot hide. And this is not even taking into account denies.
I usually take Iconoclast. But recently I have been thinking infernal might be good too in the current meta where a lot of anti tank weapons are Str 8.
I've used that for Psychic ritual with my Knights army, folks don't expect it and it's pretty easy to score if you leave enough threats elsewhere. Helps if you save a few pts to summon a psychic demon as well to cast the power.
Thanks for the feedback. I hadn't considered summoning in a demon for redundancy and I really like that suggestion!
For a good number of War Dogs armed with double lightning locks, which would you value more; fall back and shoot or 1 extra AP within 12 ''? Fall back and shoot seems to be a better option vs Drukari, and vs. AdMech + Space Marines AP -3 is a really big deal.
I have my first tournament coming up since covid started (it's next weekend). Looks to be around 12 folks showing up, and I'm going to bring my Chaos Knights, mostly as I don't want to deal with moving a lot of models in a 2.5 hour round.
Running the following.
Plasma/Volcano Tyrant
Thunderstrike Glove Desecrator
4 thermal War Dogs
2 Autocannon War Dogs
I have 85pts spare for summoning (which I'll use to summon a herald of Tzeentch (fatecaster, changecaster? whatever they are called now).
Looking to run Iconoclast, with pinpoint cruelty, and the +1 move and always move max speed traits.
jaredb wrote: I have my first tournament coming up since covid started (it's next weekend). Looks to be around 12 folks showing up, and I'm going to bring my Chaos Knights, mostly as I don't want to deal with moving a lot of models in a 2.5 hour round.
Running the following.
Plasma/Volcano Tyrant
Thunderstrike Glove Desecrator
4 thermal War Dogs
2 Autocannon War Dogs
I have 85pts spare for summoning (which I'll use to summon a herald of Tzeentch (fatecaster, changecaster? whatever they are called now).
Looking to run Iconoclast, with pinpoint cruelty, and the +1 move and always move max speed traits.
Brymm wrote: Alright guys, I need a little help with a math problem applied to the current game!
Endless Torment vs Infamous Hereditary/Pinpoint Cruelty
A list running two double thermal despoilers with indirect fire tops and a plasma/volcano Tyrant, along with three thermal dogs.
Both versions of traits seems extremely useful, I just figure one variant has to be better!
I've been thinking about the same choice myself. Quick coffee break excel sheet shows that Endless thermal cannon gives 21% increase in damage while Infamous Pinpoint gives 23% increase in damage compared to standard issue thermal cannon.
Endless thermal spear gives 15% increase in damage while Infamous Pinpoint thermal spear gives 42% increase in damage compared to standard issue thermal spear.
Infamous Pinpoint combo also benefits wardogs' close combat to some extent but despoilers don't gain that much to stomping. Obviously the more random shot guns you have the better Endless torment is and fewer guns and more melee makes Infamous Pinpoint combo better. I don't know how to estimate the breakpoint. In your case I suppose Endless torment is better but if you'd for example replace Tyrant with rampager and wardog I'd say Infamous Pinpoint combo would be better.
That’s great! In practice with Endless on the Tyrant, it is such a stabilizer especially when popping the reroll hits strat. In fact, that almost made the choice for me: my main damage platform will always be rerolling hits due to the Trail of Destruction stratagem. In the the few practice games, it makes me believe I feel what it must of felt like to play a Castellen in 8th with all of the loyalist nonsense.
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