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We can move this to YMTC is this doesn't seem to be resolved here.

"an unmodified wound roll of 1 2 or 3 always fails, irrespective of ANY ABILITIES that the weapon or the model that made that attack may have."

The rule doesn't stat that you can't use weapon abilities. It just says that regardless of weapons abilities 1-2-3 always fail regardless of weapon abilities. Rerolls allow you to reroll a failed wound are still allowed. The only thing this rule can do is make a successful hit a failure that is a 1-2-3. It can't stop you from rerolling a 3 into a 4. It also explicitly overrides weapon abilities to wound on a flat number.

So, Wardog Dreadblades. Yay or nay?

Thats not what it says.

Until the end of the battle, when resolving an
attack made against that model, an unmodified wound roll of 1,
2 or 3 always fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon
or the model making that attack may have

That last part that your hung up on is directly talking to the first part and the 1st part only. you cant use that to shut down all abilities on the model. Its talking about weapons or abilities that auto wound on a 2+ or 3+ or add to the roll (+1 to wound rolls) are still counted as a fail. If the weapon or model has an ability that has nothing to do with the wound counting as a success then it does not shut it down. What your suggesting is that if the wound roll was a fail this ability would also shut it down.

So a 3 that would start off as a fail then using a weapons ability (farseers spear that wounds on a 2+) or a model that gives a bonus (blood angels +1 to wound) which would make that 3 a wound doesnt because then the vow says that it doesn't. If the roll was a 1 however a unit that can reroll failed wounds can still reroll because the 1 was a fail and the ability that triggers only does so if a failed would become a success due to a modifier from some source. it does not stop failed wounds from rerolls because, again, order of operations, rerolls happen before modifiers. You dont get to use the vow (which is a modifier) to stop the reroll because by the time the vow hits the reroll already happened.

HOWEVER this does mean the following as well. A unit that can reroll failed wounds that also would wound on a natural 3 like say a lascannon with the ability to reroll failed wounds would not be allowed to reroll that 3 because the natural 3 is a successful wound until after the reroll phase.

You can keep trying to change our minds on this but i see a few things. You said you wanted our opinion, we gave it to you and everyone seems to agree other than you on what this means. Also you say you dont play chaos knights. So what is your point on this exactly?

As part of a chaos soup list I'm planning to take a single dual gat despoiler (original I know). My question is on the gear and setup if anyone has has any thoughts on my build. It is for a very competitive environment.

Despoiler: Ironclast
Weapons: Dual Gats
Relic: Helm of Warpsight or the Veil (honestly can't decide)
Warlord Trait: Warp Haunted Hull
Strategem: Vow of Dominance

 buddha wrote:
As part of a chaos soup list I'm planning to take a single dual gat despoiler (original I know). My question is on the gear and setup if anyone has has any thoughts on my build. It is for a very competitive environment.

Despoiler: Ironclast
Weapons: Dual Gats
Relic: Helm of Warpsight or the Veil (honestly can't decide)
Warlord Trait: Warp Haunted Hull
Strategem: Vow of Dominance

If you want a good answer you need to share the rest of your list as well as provide the ruleset you will be playing on.

How are people finding knight rampagers?

I've used the list I posted last page twice, which has two of them, and they have been absolutely fantastic both games. The destroy everything they have come into contact with.

For one of them I've run the vow of dominance (which is the best 2cp stat in the game!), knight diabolis (+1 attack), and the quicksilver thrown of slaanesh for +1 to advance and charge rolls and always fighting first in combat. I also run iconoclast house rules. This guy can't only be wounded on 4s, has 7 attacks with a big weapon or 21 stomps in the first round of combat and always fights first (barring some exceptions). He's an absolute monster.

Love love love the rampagers so far! A list I want to try soon is dual rampagers and dual tyrants of the valiant variety for maximum carnage. Not the most competitive, but should be a blast to play.

 buddha wrote:
As part of a chaos soup list I'm planning to take a single dual gat despoiler (original I know). My question is on the gear and setup if anyone has has any thoughts on my build. It is for a very competitive environment.

Despoiler: Ironclast
Weapons: Dual Gats
Relic: Helm of Warpsight or the Veil (honestly can't decide)
Warlord Trait: Warp Haunted Hull
Strategem: Vow of Dominance

Do you have to pick relics and warlord traits ahead of time due to tournament rules? If not, being able to pick them based on what threats you find across from you is one of the stronger Knight advantages. The Helm of Warpsight won't help you much against Khorne demons for example.

Hello all I have a question I'm interested in maxamizing my chaos knight kits, whats the best way without buying 3 or 4 that I can make a THermal and Gatling knight and a close combat knight?

ballzonya wrote:
Hello all I have a question I'm interested in maxamizing my chaos knight kits, whats the best way without buying 3 or 4 that I can make a THermal and Gatling knight and a close combat knight?

Knight Crusader kit. Comes with one of each gun and melee weapon.

but you don't get the cool looking chaos bits :(

ballzonya wrote:
but you don't get the cool looking chaos bits :(

There's some great 3rd party bits. I used these to replace laser destroyer barrel and they look great: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gatling-Heavy-Cannons-Long-2/262737898021?hash=item3d2c662a25:g:YUUAAOSwcUBYOzRO

Thermal cannons are pretty cheap to pick up in uk and I've used the kromlech whirlwind missiles for the carapace weapons.

Heafstaag wrote:
How are people finding knight rampagers?

I've used the list I posted last page twice, which has two of them, and they have been absolutely fantastic both games. The destroy everything they have come into contact with.

For one of them I've run the vow of dominance (which is the best 2cp stat in the game!), knight diabolis (+1 attack), and the quicksilver thrown of slaanesh for +1 to advance and charge rolls and always fighting first in combat. I also run iconoclast house rules. This guy can't only be wounded on 4s, has 7 attacks with a big weapon or 21 stomps in the first round of combat and always fights first (barring some exceptions). He's an absolute monster.

Love love love the rampagers so far! A list I want to try soon is dual rampagers and dual tyrants of the valiant variety for maximum carnage. Not the most competitive, but should be a blast to play.

but....you can have same setup for less point with a despoiler, you pay more points for just extra attacks at 6+ (sometimes can happen sometimes not), despoiler if needed can bring a missile pod too and have same stats.

 blackmage wrote:

Heafstaag wrote:
How are people finding knight rampagers?

I've used the list I posted last page twice, which has two of them, and they have been absolutely fantastic both games. The destroy everything they have come into contact with.

For one of them I've run the vow of dominance (which is the best 2cp stat in the game!), knight diabolis (+1 attack), and the quicksilver thrown of slaanesh for +1 to advance and charge rolls and always fighting first in combat. I also run iconoclast house rules. This guy can't only be wounded on 4s, has 7 attacks with a big weapon or 21 stomps in the first round of combat and always fights first (barring some exceptions). He's an absolute monster.

Love love love the rampagers so far! A list I want to try soon is dual rampagers and dual tyrants of the valiant variety for maximum carnage. Not the most competitive, but should be a blast to play.

but....you can have same setup for less point with a despoiler, you pay more points for just extra attacks at 6+ (sometimes can happen sometimes not), despoiler if needed can bring a missile pod too and have same stats.

The points difference is minimal, and the the exploding hits on 6s is golden when the knight is in lower brackets. Using the chainsword, with AP-4 in the first round of combat, with all the extra attacks has been great in taking out knights, repulsors, other tanks, and obliterators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just looked up the difference between a choppy despoiler and a rampager....its 15 points. There is basically no point difference. For 15 points the rampager gets exploding 6s with its big weapons. Excellent.

I'm assuming that as all the datasheets have different names to those in Index: Renegade Knights that this codex doesn't actually replace the index. Not that you'd want to use the index anymore, but that is the case isn't it?

Am I reading the damnations correctly in that dreadblades roll 2 x 2d6 while freeblades just roll 1 x 2d6?

dominuschao wrote:
Am I reading the damnations correctly in that dreadblades roll 2 x 2d6 while freeblades just roll 1 x 2d6?

You roll for one damnation or you can pick 2. So if you pick 2 then you have to roll for each one.

I mean to see if they fail.

"If any Dreadblades from your army have any Damnations, roll 2D6 for EACH of them "

vs IK

"If a Freeblade from your army has any Burdens, roll 2D6 for them"


My question is, does "them" mean for each dreadblade, or each damnation? If the latter then thats some harsh bs especially if taking the 5++ relic.

It's for each damnations, if you take forsaken and knower of profane secrets then you need an 11 to fail which is pretty unlikely (1 in 12).

That said it's harder that freeblades but you don't loose your household ambition, which balances it out.

Ok thanks that makes sense.
I'm picking up a CK detachment so just catching up.

I really like how this book seems to have more ranged power and is more customizable right before the game begins.

I Think I'm gonna start with a couple wardog moirax and then an infernal despoiler with AGC, TC/HF, SSRP. It seems to be one of the more lethal while still generalist configurations.

dominuschao wrote:
Ok thanks that makes sense.
I'm picking up a CK detachment so just catching up.

I really like how this book seems to have more ranged power and is more customizable right before the game begins.

I Think I'm gonna start with a couple wardog moirax and then an infernal despoiler with AGC, TC/HF, SSRP. It seems to be one of the more lethal while still generalist configurations.

I've got 2 LL moirax at home ready to be built too and that's the configuration I run my despoiler! I've been using iconoclast mainly, just because the vows are so good. Infernal seems good but I just don't like smiting my own knight to get the boost I want.

I think if you have a decent screen that's a solid tough firebase.

I noticed you mention it here somewhere. I came to this thread to see if anything I was brewing was mainstream. Since I'm usually more of a FW dread guy.
Anyway ya that build seems pretty rowdy. I'll be running 30-60 tzaangors and/or some cultists among other things. Gate gives me a second reroll each turn so the TC won't be bad. That and a SSRP are basically a concession to running into bigger mech which I feel the second AGC doesn't do well enough. Plus I got AI elsewhere. Its all theory at this point..

The plan is use infernal to boost the AGC when needed, or whatever I'm doing atm. Smiting hurts but the option to stand back up and then start getting wounds back just looks too tasty. Especially with smash captains and opposing knights so easy to slot in and ruin my fun.

dominuschao wrote:
I noticed you mention it here somewhere. I came to this thread to see if anything I was brewing was mainstream. Since I'm usually more of a FW dread guy.
Anyway ya that build seems pretty rowdy. I'll be running 30-60 tzaangors and/or some cultists among other things. Gate gives me a second reroll each turn so the TC won't be bad. That and a SSRP are basically a concession to running into bigger mech which I feel the second AGC doesn't do well enough. Plus I got AI elsewhere. Its all theory at this point..

The plan is use infernal to boost the AGC when needed, or whatever I'm doing atm. Smiting hurts but the option to stand back up and then start getting wounds back just looks too tasty. Especially with smash captains and opposing knights so easy to slot in and ruin my fun.

Yeah I suppose it's pick your poison, both have benefits. I've played house raven knights enough to know how much of a pain that stand back up and fight at full profile nonsense is!

I like vow of dominance for fighting smash captains, but making your knight t9 essentially does the same thing. There's just a couple of lists local to me that run silly necron macro weapons that wreck knights so anything to mitigate that is good in my books.

Macros are straight up list tailoring. Not much real use for them otherwise.

There's usually at least 2 lists at local tournaments that bring macros but tbf I'd say 1/3 of lists bring titanics. There was a time where in 4 games you'd definitely face, loyal 32, castellan and 3 smash captains. Almost copy and paste netlists.

It'd be super sketchy if someone turned up to a casual game, knowing I was bringing knights, with 3 gauss pylons.

With the release of new space marines I’m thinking duel avengers might be the way to go now. Before a think double battle cannons where the better choice do to the range and cost advantages it had over the avengers. Now though I’m thinking that primaris bodies (T4, 2W, 3+ sv) are going to be everywhere. Avengers are far more efficient at dealing with these then battle cannons (because anytime you roll a 1 for d3 damage with the battlecannon, it’s very bad).

I still think you should bring both with any 2 or more despoiler list, but in a 1 despoiler list you should bring avengers.

actually i play double battle cannons IK double avenger and avenger+thermal, i can deal with multiple kind of targets or you could play two helverins instead the gatling/thermal guy, flat 3 damage hurts primaris as well, problem is just the -1 AP

The rfbc still looks damn good to me, if infernal that is.. since it can be boosted to 2-4 damage and also achieve s9 vs opposing knights which is where it would typically out perform the agc.

i play it iconoclast with VOW of beastslayer and he performs pretty good, then depend by matchup i can give the helm and use trail of destuction, so i wreak havocs on those annoying flyers.
Anyway infernal is a decent option, but stratagems like vow of beastslayers and carnage are too good to just pass over

 blackmage wrote:
i play it iconoclast with VOW of beastslayer and he performs pretty good, then depend by matchup i can give the helm and use trail of destuction, so i wreak havocs on those annoying flyers.
Anyway infernal is a decent option, but stratagems like vow of beastslayers and carnage are too good to just pass over

I'm undecided - running a mono knight behind chaos soup and it seems like the infernal 3cp strat to stand back up is maybe worth it as most gun line armies worth their salt can kill a knight T1. Which means you basically have to hope to go first or tap out... True its degraded as hell getting back up but one knight is better than no knight? Obviously if you are running 3-4 knights its not a biggie due to target saturation..

yes playing 3 Ik's i found iconoclast performing better, anyway is not a simple choice, get a str9 d3+1 damage RFBC or str 7 d3 AGC, get back wounds with stratagem can change some games.