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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
you guys play too much garagehammer im afraid.
No dude I am playing I'm at freaking work and thinking about gaming hammer.


Dude, I play that game 5 times a week.... man its not as good as it sounds.... lol.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Looking to add a knight to my chaos daemons list. any recommendations for a loud-out I run Khorne daemons.

and Do I really have to buy two knights to get all the weapon options?
   
Made in gb
Latest Wrack in the Pits





When to use Daemonic Fortitude? When using it hurts you less than not using it! I.e when being T9 reduces more damage than the mortal wounds you take from daemon surge.

The first number represents selecting Daemonic Fortitude (taking d3 mortal wounds) and the second number represents getting Daemonic Fortitude randomly (taking 1 mortal wound).

On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.7/3.85 BS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D6 damage shooting attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/3*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/2*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7

On average you need to be targeted by at least 6/3 BS3+ S8 AP-2 D6 damage melta shooting attacks for a chosen Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/3*2/3*4.47)) = 6
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/2*2/3*4.47)) = 6

On average you need to be targeted by at least 13.5/6.75 WS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*2)-(2/3/3*2/3*2)) = 13.5

On average you need to be targeted by at least 10.8/5.4 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*2)-(2/3/3*5/6*2)) = 10.8

On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.2/3.6 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*3)-(2/3/3*5/6*3)) = 7.2

So as a rule of thumb, daemonic fortitude only affects S8-9 weapons (going to ignore S16 as it's relatively rare). The more damage the weapon does the more effective it is. The worse your save is the more effective it is. Only use it if you know your opponent will fire the above number or more shots into your knight. You can work out how many shots your opponent has to shoot into 2 of your knights for daemonic fortitude to be break even by doubling the number. So if you had two knights then your opponent would need to fire a total of 7.7*2 = 15.4 lascannons/darklances at those knights for you to break even if they were both affected by daemonic fortitude.

Hope that's useful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/30 19:34:18



 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Mushkilla wrote:
When to use Daemonic Fortitude? When using it hurts you less than not using it! I.e when being T9 reduces more damage than the mortal wounds you take from daemon surge.

The first number represents selecting Daemonic Fortitude (taking d3 mortal wounds) and the second number represents getting Daemonic Fortitude randomly (taking 1 mortal wound).

On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.7/3.85 BS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D6 damage shooting attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/3*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/2*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7

On average you need to be targeted by at least 6/3 BS3+ S8 AP-2 D6 damage melta shooting attacks for a chosen Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/3*2/3*4.47)) = 6
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/2*2/3*4.47)) = 6

On average you need to be targeted by at least 13.5/6.75 WS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*2)-(2/3/3*2/3*2)) = 13.5

On average you need to be targeted by at least 10.8/5.4 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*2)-(2/3/3*5/6*2)) = 10.8

On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.2/3.6 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*3)-(2/3/3*5/6*3)) = 7.2

So as a rule of thumb, daemonic fortitude only affects S8-9 weapons (going to ignore S16 as it's relatively rare). The more damage the weapon does the more effective it is. The worse your save is the more effective it is. Only use it if you know your opponent will fire the above number or more shots into your knight. You can work out how many shots your opponent has to shoot into 2 of your knights for daemonic fortitude to be break even by doubling the number. So if you had two knights then your opponent would need to fire a total of 7.7*2 = 15.4 lascannons/darklances at those knights for you to break even if they were both affected by daemonic fortitude.

Hope that's useful.


Interesting, that’s I higher number of shots then I expected. Having played against infernal knight recently, the mortal wounds from the trait add up. Remember it’s a smite amount of mortal wounds every time you want to pick a benefit. Iconclast just seems like the better overall choice for me.
   
Made in gb
Latest Wrack in the Pits





Salt donkey wrote:

Interesting, that’s I higher number of shots then I expected. Having played against infernal knight recently, the mortal wounds from the trait add up. Remember it’s a smite amount of mortal wounds every time you want to pick a benefit. Iconclast just seems like the better overall choice for me.


Yeah, it wasn't what I expected either. I thought it might be off compared to what we think it would intuitively be. But basically outside of large amounts of anti tank fire that you can guarantee going into the knight that has daemonic fortitude you shouldn't pick it. On the other hand if you get it randomly it's quite good. The ideal situation, is if your knight is in a position where it can benefit from all three effects (an extra 2" movement lets your heavy flamers shoot, an extra 3" makes a charge you want to do more reliable, extra damage vs a vehicle isn't crucial but will still help, and you are going to get shot by 3-4 lascannons/melta). Whilst also being a situation where daemonic power (+1S +1D to a ranged weapon) isn't worth d3 mortals (cause when it is you should probably pick it).

Another thing worth noting is it's better if your opponents has re-roll to hits.

On average you need to be targeted by at least 5.78/2.89 BS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D6 damage shooting attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((8/9/2*2/3*3.5)-(8/9/3*2/3*3.5)) = 5.78

And better if your opponent has re-roll to wounds:

On average you need to be targeted by at least 6.61/3.3 BS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D6 damage shooting attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3*(1/2+1/2*1/2)*2/3*3.5)-(2/3*(1/3+2/3*1/3)*2/3*3.5)) = 6.61

Intuitively I thought it would be less efficient against re-roll to wound.

EDIT: Doom/Guide (hits and wounds)

On average you need to be targeted by at least 4.95/2.47 BS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D6 damage shooting attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((8/9*(1/2+1/2*1/2)*2/3*3.5)-(8/9*(1/3+2/3*1/3)*2/3*3.5)) = 4.95

So 1+ crimson hunter exarchs... Problem is they will just target the knight that you didn't daemonic surge. I guess if it was the only knight they could doom?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/30 20:43:47



 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




ballzonya wrote:
Looking to add a knight to my chaos daemons list. any recommendations for a loud-out I run Khorne daemons.

and Do I really have to buy two knights to get all the weapon options?


For weapons options, you can find some weapon arms from third-party dealers like Taro Model Maker or Bitzbox. Much cheaper than buying two knight kits.

For load-out, I'd look at some ranged stuff if you are mostly running melee to pick out targets that you can't reach with melee turn one. Consider to yourself whether you need more anti-horde, anti small vehicle, or anti tank/heavy vehicle. That will dictate what kind of load-out you go for. There are also points to consider, as a 25-40 point difference can mean you can afford the knight or you can't.
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Yorkshire

ballzonya wrote:
Looking to add a knight to my chaos daemons list. any recommendations for a loud-out I run Khorne daemons.

and Do I really have to buy two knights to get all the weapon options?


Only if you want to run double weapons. If you buy the crusader you get one of every weapon.

If you're running khorne you definately want a shooty knight. Thermal, avenger gatling and some carapace missiles is a good bet. If you take just one knight then you don't get the household ambition. Iconoclast is still probably the best as it has more universal strategems and relics.

You can pick relics, warlord traits and dreadblade pacts and damnations when you see your opponent.

If you pick up two armigers or two of the new Moirax as well then you'll have 3cp and benifit from the ambition also which works well with the warglaives.
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





If running 2 shooty Rampagers is it best to take weapons in pairs i.e. 1 twin gat, one twin thermal, or should we go the Loyalist Crusader route to split target priority? It seems easy for an opponent to pick out your anti armor/infantry and there goes half your list.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




The list I'm building towards (i just need a twin battle cannon knight):

1 Knight despoiler with twin battle cannons and a stormspear rocket pod

2 knight rampagers

2 wardogs with autocannons and stubbers

2 wardogs with thermal spears and melta guns

I've played it once and loved it. Took on and defeated a shooty chaos list my buddies built that had a twin gatling cannon knight, a dual melta knight, an autocannon wardog, and a spearhead of autocannon havoks, obliterators, and melta chosen.

In the end I had one rampager and my two autocannon havoks left. It felt like a fair game overall.

Rampagers are amazing. One got into combat wiht the dual gatling cannon knight and absolutely destroyed it. Iconoclast household rampagers are the bees knees.

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Question regarding Vow of Dominance:

The verbiage of this stratagem states that an unmodified roll of 1, 2, or 3 always fails irrespective of any abilities on the weapon or model. I interpret this to mean rerolls to wound are not allowed either. Which I do understand rerolls to wound is not a modifier, however it IS an ability, and the wording of the strat covers both.


Hypothetical example, A shadowsword shoots its Volcano Cannon at my knight and scores one hit.

He then rolls a 3 to wound.

My position is that he cannot then say "My volcano cannon has an ability that allows me to reroll failed wounds against Titanics."

This would be utilizing an ability on the weapon/model, which the strat specifically says the roll of 3 always fails irrespective of any abilities on the weapon/model.

Am I correct? If not, where is the flaw in my logic?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/31 14:42:38


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The question here comes down to rerolls happening before modifiers. If the 3 would have been a successful wound before modifiers then no he would not be allowed to reroll vs your knight . It would be no different than if it said -1 to wound which would turn a 3 (successful wound) into a 2 (unsuccessful wound).

Now if the weapon said reroll wounds he could still do it as again rerolls happen before ANY modifiers including your "1/2/3 doesnt wound". Thats because reroll wounds means he can reroll successfull wounds as well with that wording (not that most people would unless they were fishing for 6's for some other reason). Saying reroll failed wounds (which is how most things are worded) he is sol.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Azuza001 wrote:
The question here comes down to rerolls happening before modifiers. If the 3 would have been a successful wound before modifiers then no he would not be allowed to reroll vs your knight . It would be no different than if it said -1 to wound which would turn a 3 (successful wound) into a 2 (unsuccessful wound).

Now if the weapon said reroll wounds he could still do it as again rerolls happen before ANY modifiers including your "1/2/3 doesnt wound". Thats because reroll wounds means he can reroll successfull wounds as well with that wording (not that most people would unless they were fishing for 6's for some other reason). Saying reroll failed wounds (which is how most things are worded) he is sol.


In my Shadowsword example, the volcano cannon rule does say "reroll FAILED wounds"

But the distinction that I'm trying to make here, is that it doesn't matter what order modifiers and rerolls happen, because they are both disallowed per the wording of the strat.

Where is the reroll coming from? An ability on the weapon.
The roll of 3 always fails irrespective of any abilities on the weapon.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/31 15:45:50


 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Dark Angels Scout with Shotgun





Charlotte, NC

slobulous wrote:
Azuza001 wrote:
The question here comes down to rerolls happening before modifiers. If the 3 would have been a successful wound before modifiers then no he would not be allowed to reroll vs your knight . It would be no different than if it said -1 to wound which would turn a 3 (successful wound) into a 2 (unsuccessful wound).

Now if the weapon said reroll wounds he could still do it as again rerolls happen before ANY modifiers including your "1/2/3 doesnt wound". Thats because reroll wounds means he can reroll successfull wounds as well with that wording (not that most people would unless they were fishing for 6's for some other reason). Saying reroll failed wounds (which is how most things are worded) he is sol.


In my Shadowsword example, the volcano cannon rule does say "reroll FAILED wounds"

But the distinction that I'm trying to make here, is that it doesn't matter what order modifiers and rerolls happen, because they are both disallowed per the wording of the strat.

Where is the reroll coming from? An ability on the weapon.
The roll of 3 always fails irrespective of any abilities on the weapon.



I'm very interested in the groups interpretation of this, I'm playing in a narrative campaign where my Iconoclast House Rampager will be going up against an IG Shadowsword

2500 Points
2000 Points 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Mushkilla wrote:
When to use Daemonic Fortitude? When using it hurts you less than not using it! I.e when being T9 reduces more damage than the mortal wounds you take from daemon surge.

The first number represents selecting Daemonic Fortitude (taking d3 mortal wounds) and the second number represents getting Daemonic Fortitude randomly (taking 1 mortal wound).

On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.7/3.85 BS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D6 damage shooting attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/3*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/2*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7

On average you need to be targeted by at least 6/3 BS3+ S8 AP-2 D6 damage melta shooting attacks for a chosen Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/3*2/3*4.47)) = 6
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/2*2/3*4.47)) = 6

On average you need to be targeted by at least 13.5/6.75 WS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*2)-(2/3/3*2/3*2)) = 13.5

On average you need to be targeted by at least 10.8/5.4 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*2)-(2/3/3*5/6*2)) = 10.8

On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.2/3.6 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*3)-(2/3/3*5/6*3)) = 7.2

So as a rule of thumb, daemonic fortitude only affects S8-9 weapons (going to ignore S16 as it's relatively rare). The more damage the weapon does the more effective it is. The worse your save is the more effective it is. Only use it if you know your opponent will fire the above number or more shots into your knight. You can work out how many shots your opponent has to shoot into 2 of your knights for daemonic fortitude to be break even by doubling the number. So if you had two knights then your opponent would need to fire a total of 7.7*2 = 15.4 lascannons/darklances at those knights for you to break even if they were both affected by daemonic fortitude.

Hope that's useful.
Ehh - not sure how useful this is. Against str 8 weapons you take 33% less damage and vs str 9 you take 25% less damage. Anti tank is typically pretty swingy. I don't think you should ever chose the T9 - it's not terrible to get if they have lascannons or rockets on a random roll.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I do not agree with that interpretation. Order of events is important. Rerolls happen before modifiers. The ability says that unmodified 1,2, and 3's always fail. It doesn't say you can't reroll 1, 2's, or 3's. Its talking about a dice roll that is modified to a different number still counts as failed as well as rolls that would normally count now fail. No where does it say you can't reroll said numbers if they are rolled. Trying to argue otherwise would not be right. Thats like saying you can't reroll 1's because 1's always fail which we all know is not how the game works.

The ability is a good one. Actually a really great one if you know your going to fight an opponent that will run multiple weapon options that are str 9 or higher or an opponent that has a way to modify failed hits to count. But it doesn't stop players from rerolling 1's, 2's, or 3's to wound. It makes 1's, 2's, and 3's always count as a fail no matter if a modifier or a natural roll would count as a wound.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/01 00:32:08


 
   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin




San Diego, CA

Yeah I agree with this, I would say that since it counts as a fail, you get to re-roll it because you get to re-roll fails. It’s not a modifier, it’s an ability and the only restriction from the Knight’s ability is that <4 counts as a fail. Same as if something caused mortal wounds or had other effects.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Yorkshire

I think Vow of Dominance really helps out against blood angels smash captains and librarian dreadnoughts. They won't get the benifit from red thirst so are much less efficient. Also skullreaver prince, abberants with improvised weapons and other mele knights are going to be made less effective. Knights are tough vs almost all shooting it's the mele beasts that are knights biggest problem.
   
Made in gb
Latest Wrack in the Pits





 Xenomancers wrote:
 Mushkilla wrote:
When to use Daemonic Fortitude? When using it hurts you less than not using it! I.e when being T9 reduces more damage than the mortal wounds you take from daemon surge.

The first number represents selecting Daemonic Fortitude (taking d3 mortal wounds) and the second number represents getting Daemonic Fortitude randomly (taking 1 mortal wound).

On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.7/3.85 BS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D6 damage shooting attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/3*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/2*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7

On average you need to be targeted by at least 6/3 BS3+ S8 AP-2 D6 damage melta shooting attacks for a chosen Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/3*2/3*4.47)) = 6
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/2*2/3*4.47)) = 6

On average you need to be targeted by at least 13.5/6.75 WS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*2)-(2/3/3*2/3*2)) = 13.5

On average you need to be targeted by at least 10.8/5.4 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*2)-(2/3/3*5/6*2)) = 10.8

On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.2/3.6 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*3)-(2/3/3*5/6*3)) = 7.2

So as a rule of thumb, daemonic fortitude only affects S8-9 weapons (going to ignore S16 as it's relatively rare). The more damage the weapon does the more effective it is. The worse your save is the more effective it is. Only use it if you know your opponent will fire the above number or more shots into your knight. You can work out how many shots your opponent has to shoot into 2 of your knights for daemonic fortitude to be break even by doubling the number. So if you had two knights then your opponent would need to fire a total of 7.7*2 = 15.4 lascannons/darklances at those knights for you to break even if they were both affected by daemonic fortitude.

Hope that's useful.
Ehh - not sure how useful this is. Against str 8 weapons you take 33% less damage and vs str 9 you take 25% less damage. Anti tank is typically pretty swingy. I don't think you should ever chose the T9 - it's not terrible to get if they have lascannons or rockets on a random roll.


The counter intuitive part is we are interested in linear damage output. Once we have reduced average damage by 2. Then it becomes worthwhile. Linear damage reduction of going from wounding 2/3 -> 1/2, 1/2 -> 1/3, 5/6 -> 2/3 are all 1/6. So what determines whether Daemonic fortitude is worth doing is the same for S8, S9 and S16 as long as the rest of the profiles are the same.

So S8, S9 S16 AP-2 d6 damage weapon all require and average of 7.7 shots for deamonic Fortitude to be worthwhile.

I'm hoping there's something terribly wrong with my maths. But so far I can't see it.


 
   
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Azuza001 wrote:
I do not agree with that interpretation. Order of events is important. Rerolls happen before modifiers. The ability says that unmodified 1,2, and 3's always fail. It doesn't say you can't reroll 1, 2's, or 3's.



You are correct that VoD does not say you can't reroll 1s 2s and 3s to wound. But it does say IRRESPECTIVE OF ABILITIES ON THE WEAPON OR MODEL. It matters WHERE you are getting your ability to reroll from because the rule says so.

In the example I gave with the Shadowsword shooting the Knight, the reroll to wound comes from an ability on the weapon. It is under the volcano cannon's 'Abilities' section under its weapon profile.

I will quote the relevant text in the stratagem again, verbatim:

"an unmodified wound roll of 1 2 or 3 always fails, irrespective of ANY ABILITIES that the weapon or the model that made that attack may have."

This verbiage contains very broad and absolute terms, such as always and any. The first part of the sentence establishes that no modifiers may be considered by using the word "unmodified". The second part of the sentence, after the comma, disqualifies ANY ABILITIES. If you invoke a reroll to wound that came from an ability on your weapon, it seems quite clear to me that is violating the second part of Vow of Dominance.


What I am looking for is a logical and direct answer to the question:

How does a volcano cannon's ability circumvent the rules in Vow of Dominance stating that any abilities on the weapon are irrespected?
   
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In My Lab

slobulous wrote:
Azuza001 wrote:
I do not agree with that interpretation. Order of events is important. Rerolls happen before modifiers. The ability says that unmodified 1,2, and 3's always fail. It doesn't say you can't reroll 1, 2's, or 3's.



You are correct that VoD does not say you can't reroll 1s 2s and 3s to wound. But it does say IRRESPECTIVE OF ABILITIES ON THE WEAPON OR MODEL. It matters WHERE you are getting your ability to reroll from because the rule says so.

In the example I gave with the Shadowsword shooting the Knight, the reroll to wound comes from an ability on the weapon. It is under the volcano cannon's 'Abilities' section under its weapon profile.

I will quote the relevant text in the stratagem again, verbatim:

"an unmodified wound roll of 1 2 or 3 always fails, irrespective of ANY ABILITIES that the weapon or the model that made that attack may have."

This verbiage contains very broad and absolute terms, such as always and any. The first part of the sentence establishes that no modifiers may be considered by using the word "unmodified". The second part of the sentence, after the comma, disqualifies ANY ABILITIES. If you invoke a reroll to wound that came from an ability on your weapon, it seems quite clear to me that is violating the second part of Vow of Dominance.


What I am looking for is a logical and direct answer to the question:

How does a volcano cannon's ability circumvent the rules in Vow of Dominance stating that any abilities on the weapon are irrespected?
Because it doesn't say "They fail and cannot be rerolled," it says "They fail."

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:




Because it doesn't say "They fail and cannot be rerolled," it says "They fail."


But where are you getting the reroll from?
   
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In My Lab

slobulous wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Because it doesn't say "They fail and cannot be rerolled," it says "They fail."


But where are you getting the reroll from?
A weapon's ability, yes. But it doesn't say "Ignore all weapon abilities," it says "Wounds rolls of 1, 2, and 3 fail regardless of anything to the contrary."

Edit: If you're going to a tournament, ask your TO how they're gonna rule.

If you're playing in a friendly game, ask your opponent how they'd like to rule, and if you insist on your ruling, roll off if you can't agree.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/01 15:57:25


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






How dense can you be?

The vow says the roll fails.
Not that there is no reroll
Not that effects that do not require a success can't trigger.

It just says it fails.
So if your weapon has an ability that says it always wounds on a 2+,it would still fail at a 2 or 3.
But if it has an ability that deals an extra mortsl wound on a 3+,that still works, because it didn't care if you succeeded or not.

Rerolling is a step further. It triggers WHEN YOU FAIL.
By the logic you are pushing you can't reroll 1s when rerolling failed rolls as a 1 always fails.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
slobulous wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Because it doesn't say "They fail and cannot be rerolled," it says "They fail."


But where are you getting the reroll from?
A weapon's ability, yes. But it doesn't say "Ignore all weapon abilities," it says "Wounds rolls of 1, 2, and 3 fail regardless of anything to the contrary."


No, it does not say that. I literally quoted the exact words verbatim a couple posts above. It says those rolls ALWAYS fail irrespective of ANY abilities on the weapon or model.

If you have rerolled these wounds using an ability on the weapon, you are obviously paying respect / regarding / acknowledging / utilizing an ability on the weapon or model.... Whatever synonym you want to use.

At this point I almost feel like I'm being trolled! Lol.. Luckily I am a Tau player and have no vested interest either way but it's good to be informed about these kinds of things.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/01 16:01:15


 
   
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 Mushkilla wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Mushkilla wrote:
When to use Daemonic Fortitude? When using it hurts you less than not using it! I.e when being T9 reduces more damage than the mortal wounds you take from daemon surge.

The first number represents selecting Daemonic Fortitude (taking d3 mortal wounds) and the second number represents getting Daemonic Fortitude randomly (taking 1 mortal wound).

On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.7/3.85 BS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D6 damage shooting attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/3*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*3.5)-(2/3/2*2/3*3.5)) = 7.7

On average you need to be targeted by at least 6/3 BS3+ S8 AP-2 D6 damage melta shooting attacks for a chosen Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/3*2/3*4.47)) = 6
2/((2/3*2/3*2/3*4.47)-(2/3/2*2/3*4.47)) = 6

On average you need to be targeted by at least 13.5/6.75 WS3+ S8-9 AP-2 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*2/3*2)-(2/3/3*2/3*2)) = 13.5

On average you need to be targeted by at least 10.8/5.4 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 D3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*2)-(2/3/3*5/6*2)) = 10.8

On average you need to be targeted by at least 7.2/3.6 WS3+ S8-9 AP-3 3 damage melee attacks for Daemonic Fortitude to break even.
2/((2/3/2*5/6*3)-(2/3/3*5/6*3)) = 7.2

So as a rule of thumb, daemonic fortitude only affects S8-9 weapons (going to ignore S16 as it's relatively rare). The more damage the weapon does the more effective it is. The worse your save is the more effective it is. Only use it if you know your opponent will fire the above number or more shots into your knight. You can work out how many shots your opponent has to shoot into 2 of your knights for daemonic fortitude to be break even by doubling the number. So if you had two knights then your opponent would need to fire a total of 7.7*2 = 15.4 lascannons/darklances at those knights for you to break even if they were both affected by daemonic fortitude.

Hope that's useful.
Ehh - not sure how useful this is. Against str 8 weapons you take 33% less damage and vs str 9 you take 25% less damage. Anti tank is typically pretty swingy. I don't think you should ever chose the T9 - it's not terrible to get if they have lascannons or rockets on a random roll.


The counter intuitive part is we are interested in linear damage output. Once we have reduced average damage by 2. Then it becomes worthwhile. Linear damage reduction of going from wounding 2/3 -> 1/2, 1/2 -> 1/3, 5/6 -> 2/3 are all 1/6. So what determines whether Daemonic fortitude is worth doing is the same for S8, S9 and S16 as long as the rest of the profiles are the same.

So S8, S9 S16 AP-2 d6 damage weapon all require and average of 7.7 shots for deamonic Fortitude to be worthwhile.

I'm hoping there's something terribly wrong with my maths. But so far I can't see it.

I don't think there is a problem with the math. A lot of the math has nothing to do with toughness though. The thing that is a little misleading is 8ish rockets averaging 2 damage. Most armies are buffing their shooting to hit at least and knights take priority shooting because they are a powerful model. I think in actual gamepaly going to t9 is going to be enough to keep your knight alive in many ways. #1 they might choose to shoot something else. #2 If they are rerolling all hits the damage reduction from T9 becomes a lot more significant. Also things like a command point reroll can really throw off this math. If they only get 1 wound through with a rocket they average 3.5 damage - that is another misleading thing. You might be comfortable looking at the math when being shot by 7+ rockets. But you know there are a lot of possibile outcomes that have your knight taking 10+ damage from that much firepower.


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 BoomWolf wrote:
How dense can you be?

The vow says the roll fails.
Not that there is no reroll
Not that effects that do not require a success can't trigger.

It just says it fails.
So if your weapon has an ability that says it always wounds on a 2+,it would still fail at a 2 or 3.
But if it has an ability that deals an extra mortsl wound on a 3+,that still works, because it didn't care if you succeeded or not.

Rerolling is a step further. It triggers WHEN YOU FAIL.
By the logic you are pushing you can't reroll 1s when rerolling failed rolls as a 1 always fails.

This isn't a -1 to hit situation. The way that works is you can't reroll a success if it says reroll failed hits. Bs3+ rolls a 3 to hit - would be a success because 3's hit is then modified to a 2 after the check for reroll is made. That is not the situation here. It is just changing the reuqired wound number. So a 3 fails for a lascannon against your knight. If they can reroll all wounds they can reroll the wound.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/01 16:23:03


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Guys you are missing my entire point here. I am not saying that VOD prevents rerolls to wound. I am saying that it prevents ABILITIES GRANTED BY THE WEAPON/MODEL that is making the attack in regards to rolling a 1 2 or 3 to wound. This is the literal interpretation of the words in the rule.

There are plenty of examples where you can reroll wounds against VoD.

And each example is something that is NOT on the weapon or model that made the attack because that is basically prohibited in the rule.

Example 1: A Farseer casts Doom on the knight and Dark Reapers shoot missiles at it. They may enjoy full rerolls to wound because the ability came from the Farseer who is not making the attack, the Dark Reapers are. No Violation

Example 2 : My volcano cannon rolled a 3 to wound. I can use a Command Reroll strat to reroll this wound roll, it is not an ability on the weapon or model that made the attack. It came from a universal stratagem, No violation

Example 3 : My volcano cannon rolled a 3 to wound. I cannot use the ability of the volcano cannon to reroll to wound because this is from an ability on the weapon or model that made the attack and would be violation of the VOD rules

   
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So, if I have a weapon that gives Mortal Wounds on a wound roll of 2+, what happens if I roll a 3 to-wound against the Vow of Dominance Knight?

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 JNAProductions wrote:
So, if I have a weapon that gives Mortal Wounds on a wound roll of 2+, what happens if I roll a 3 to-wound against the Vow of Dominance Knight?


The mortal would trigger but the regular attack would fail to wound
   
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slobulous wrote:
Guys you are missing my entire point here. I am not saying that VOD prevents rerolls to wound. I am saying that it prevents ABILITIES GRANTED BY THE WEAPON/MODEL that is making the attack in regards to rolling a 1 2 or 3 to wound. This is the literal interpretation of the words in the rule.

There are plenty of examples where you can reroll wounds against VoD.

And each example is something that is NOT on the weapon or model that made the attack because that is basically prohibited in the rule.

Example 1: A Farseer casts Doom on the knight and Dark Reapers shoot missiles at it. They may enjoy full rerolls to wound because the ability came from the Farseer who is not making the attack, the Dark Reapers are. No Violation

Example 2 : My volcano cannon rolled a 3 to wound. I can use a Command Reroll strat to reroll this wound roll, it is not an ability on the weapon or model that made the attack. It came from a universal stratagem, No violation

Example 3 : My volcano cannon rolled a 3 to wound. I cannot use the ability of the volcano cannon to reroll to wound because this is from an ability on the weapon or model that made the attack and would be violation of the VOD rules


Okay I understand what you are saying now. Still disagree though. the wording is always fail regardless of weapons abilities. You roll a 3 to wound with a volcano lance - it fails where it would have been successful without the VOD rule. Always fail does not mean you can't reroll. All that does is make a weapon like a wychblade which would every on a 2+ - that weapon becomes a 4+ to wound weapon against VOD.

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 Xenomancers wrote:

Okay I understand what you are saying now. Still disagree though. the wording is always fail regardless of weapons abilities. You roll a 3 to wound with a volcano lance - it fails where it would have been successful without the VOD rule. Always fail does not mean you can't reroll. All that does is make a weapon like a wychblade which would every on a 2+ - that weapon becomes a 4+ to wound weapon against VOD.


Right, always fail does not mean you can't reroll. However that's not the part of the rule in question. It's the next part, immediately after "always fails". I have quoted this section of the VoD rules ad nauseum in prior posts.

This part of the rule means you can't factor in any abilities on the weapon/model that made the attack when determining the wound roll result. Any abilities would include abilities that give rerolls to wound, such as in the case of the volcano cannon as demonstrated in my examples.

Once this criteria of 'Not being an ability on the weapon/model that made the attack' is met, you can reroll your heart out.
   
 
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