This campaign could've also been better used to hand some love to certain indexes (cough vipoid Corsairs, cough mutants and rabble /r&h cough Krieg fodder cough)

But Nope

Not Online!!! wrote:
This campaign could've also been better used to hand some love to certain indexes (cough vipoid Corsairs, cough mutants and rabble /r&h cough Krieg fodder cough)

But Nope

doing that would nesscitate GW offically launching forge world stuff as offical codices... not going to happen

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
This campaign could've also been better used to hand some love to certain indexes (cough vipoid Corsairs, cough mutants and rabble /r&h cough Krieg fodder cough)

But Nope

doing that would nesscitate GW offically launching forge world stuff as offical codices... not going to happen

They've done this many times, a few of the tyranids models (Flyrant, Trygon) were FW only at one point, same with some of the marines (they did release a full box set of Old marines), Admech, etc..

Its only as of late that FW is crap and GW is ignoring them.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
This campaign could've also been better used to hand some love to certain indexes (cough vipoid Corsairs, cough mutants and rabble /r&h cough Krieg fodder cough)

But Nope

doing that would nesscitate GW offically launching forge world stuff as offical codices... not going to happen

They've done this many times, a few of the tyranids models (Flyrant, Trygon) were FW only at one point, same with some of the marines (they did release a full box set of Old marines), Admech, etc..

Its only as of late that FW is crap and GW is ignoring them.

Given how often they're getting mentioned in the fluff, I can totally believe that Corsairs or Exodites will be getting a release from GW proper at some point. Probably a small scale one, but who knows?

 Amishprn86 wrote:

No DE player (EDIT: that i talked to, and its a lot) cared more about Incubi and Drazhar over better HQ options... and GW knows this, but what did we get? ffs

The sheer number of missed opportunities in this supplement just beggers belief.

- The upcoming Chaos/DA supplement has relics and warlord traits, so clearly they're happy to include those . . . just not for the Eldar races.

- Eldar were given tables of new powers for each of their 8 or so Exarch squad-leaders, yet creating just 3 similar tables for the DE HQs was just unthinkable.

Actually, as an aside, if Drazhar is being officially acknowledged as a Phoenix Lord, then shouldn't Incubi have gotten one of those tables for the Klaivex?

- In the next supplement, there are stratagems to improve each of the Marine HQs, even though they already have 70 billion of the buggers. Meanwhile, DE and harlequins (with 3 and 2 generic HQs, respectively) get zilch.

These are all things that would require minimal effort and no new models, yet even these are apparently too much for GW to bother with.

Not Online!!! wrote:
This campaign could've also been better used to hand some love to certain indexes (cough vipoid Corsairs, cough mutants and rabble /r&h cough Krieg fodder cough)

It genuinely wouldn't surprise me if GW has forgotten that Corsairs and R&H actually exist as factions.

These supplements have certainly been all over the place. The first book was certainly lacklustre, and this book seems decent for Black Templars and maybe Chaos Space Marines. I think it's still going to annoy Black Templars players if it contains less content for their Chapter than the other Chapters got (especially since Black Templars are the typical forgotten Chapter).

Darsath wrote:
These supplements have certainly been all over the place. The first book was certainly lacklustre, and this book seems decent for Black Templars and maybe Chaos Space Marines. I think it's still going to annoy Black Templars players if it contains less content for their Chapter than the other Chapters got (especially since Black Templars are the typical forgotten Chapter).

Well they still have more models and special units than a number of First Founding Chapters? Speaking as someone with a BT army.

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
This campaign could've also been better used to hand some love to certain indexes (cough vipoid Corsairs, cough mutants and rabble /r&h cough Krieg fodder cough)

But Nope

doing that would nesscitate GW offically launching forge world stuff as offical codices... not going to happen

Whats the status of the Custoders Codex that has both GW and FW models?

These are all things that would require minimal effort and no new models, yet even these are apparently too much for GW to bother with.

Too busy with the Marine rules supplement that is PA no 2 and likely to be the same with the Blood Angels one.

 Mr Morden wrote:


doing that would nesscitate GW offically launching forge world stuff as offical codices... not going to happen

Whats the status of the Custoders Codex that has both GW and FW models?

Whats the status of the Custoders Codex that has both GW and FW models?

Not sure what drugs you're on but there aren't any forge world models in the custodes codex.

BrianDavion wrote:

Whats the status of the Custoders Codex that has both GW and FW models?

Not sure what drugs you're on but there aren't any forge world models in the custodes codex.

There is a beta set of rules for it

I feel a little like this is just the end result of a studio that does not care about the game as a whole, and would rather work on there faverate parts of it.

Its kinda sad the situation some of these factions are in when just rules updates could be enough to really give them some interesting updates.
If minis are really just not going to happen, at least good rules can keep up interest and people getting into them. But it really does feel like GW wants to turn 40k into 30k, Even why they seem to be trying to kill off 30k at this point.

1. Get rid of super doctrines
2. Let your army start in a Chosen Doctrine

Bam, tons of issues fixed

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Get rid of super doctrines
2. Let your army start in a Chosen Doctrine

Bam, tons of issues fixed

I'd do it 6th Edition style.

Each turn after the 1st, a Marine army can choose from Devastator, Assault or Tactical Doctrine. Each Doctrine last until the end of the turn (or round?). Each Doctrine can only be chosen once a game. Super-doctrines stay, but you only get it the one turn you're in your favourite doctrine.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Get rid of super doctrines
2. Let your army start in a Chosen Doctrine

Bam, tons of issues fixed

I'd do it 6th Edition style.

Each turn after the 1st, a Marine army can choose from Devastator, Assault or Tactical Doctrine. Each Doctrine last until the end of the turn (or round?). Each Doctrine can only be chosen once a game. Super-doctrines stay, but you only get it the one turn you're in your favourite doctrine.

as someone who had to deal with his army have that as his chapter tactic, yeaaah hard pass. it was crap then. it'd be crap now

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
This campaign could've also been better used to hand some love to certain indexes (cough vipoid Corsairs, cough mutants and rabble /r&h cough Krieg fodder cough)

But Nope

doing that would nesscitate GW offically launching forge world stuff as offical codices... not going to happen

Still a better use then more marines and yet ANOTHER failed attempt at fixing the core issue with the CSM dex. That would be 11 btw.
(this is with the assumption that the french rumour guy is right.)

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

Karol wrote:
Maybe Is it my english, although am not very fluent in polish either. I said, I understand that people not like having bad rules, I just don't understand how they could think that at some time they would get them. Am deeply suprised by it, because here everyone knows that good times are just a short break between long times of bad.

Am suprised that somehow eldar players were expecting that GW would be making good eldar rules. It is strange to me.

My problem with GK are that they are bad when I play them, if the uncoming CA made them awesome for a year, and then again they would be bad. I would be okey with them being bad again. The problem is that sometimes factions wait decades to get a good book. I don't even know what I am going to be doing in 2 years, 10 years is more then 2/3 of my life.

part of the problem with PA is it didn't really help the CWE or DE units that needed a bit of buff love, mostly the ones that have been copy/pastes for the last few editions, and even the rules that do help them are better on the already good units

Every aspect got better with maybe the execption of banshees...banshees didn't really get better.
3d6 pick the highest advance is great for fire dragons.
5++ save is great for swooping hawks
Dires got 2 good abilities - exploding 6's and +1tohit and wound after losing a model
Shinning spears got the absurd 3++ exarch and the also really good 6" pile in
Warp spiders can now come in RR all hits from DS or get a free move shunt on any turn
Crimsons got 2+ to hit ability
Scoprs can take -1 to hit in cover OR 5+ to deal mortals
Reapers got a free EML shot per squad.

You could realistically take any of these units but banshees and put them to great use if you so desired in in competitive. Not to mention ignore cover and always counts in cover for some really easy mode games. +4 inch shuriken range is also REALLY good. Plus the new warlock powers? Some of those are pretty good too.

DE did get pretty screwed but it's not like they really needed better rules. Realistically the Drazar buff makes taking 2 kabal batalions much more palpable. Plus now that you can take ynnari HQ's in detachments so you don't have to take 3 redundant archons. They did get some okay buffs to covens (I really don't care about covens). Scourges and mardrakes and incubi not getting their kabal traits is PRETTY effing weak though...they should really fix that...it is so annoying not getting my flayed skull trait on scourges.

Ynnari I feel got the most screwed. They are just so bad - no reason to ever play them.

You posted the same thing related to how good aspect warriors and I think you're misunderstanding that the units at their core aren't good enough to see competitive play. The Exarch traits only really buffed Shining Spears (still expensive), CHEs and Dark Reapers. The rest of the aspects weren't used before and they won't be used now except for screening, where someone used Swooping Hawks for their screening ability causing -2 to charge.

Realistically, no you can't take any of these units in competitive play because there are better units in the codex and they're outclassed by opposing armies.

Apple fox wrote:
I feel a little like this is just the end result of a studio that does not care about the game as a whole, and would rather work on there faverate parts of it.

Its kinda sad the situation some of these factions are in when just rules updates could be enough to really give them some interesting updates.
If minis are really just not going to happen, at least good rules can keep up interest and people getting into them. But it really does feel like GW wants to turn 40k into 30k, Even why they seem to be trying to kill off 30k at this point.

I completely agree with this sentiment. Apple peel has it here.

To the op

When you mentioned there’s no stacking, what are you rearing to?

Sorry new to the book myself

Can you not take 2 obsessions and they work together ?

Shinzra wrote:
To the op

When you mentioned there’s no stacking, what are you rearing to?

Sorry new to the book myself

Can you not take 2 obsessions and they work together ?

He's referring to Drazhars ability of +1 to wound not stacking with Lethal Precision's 6 to wound has +2 to damage. This is not really a surprise though, we've seen recently that GW is moving away from the old design principle of abilities going off on a specific dice roll being affected by modifiers to now only going off on a natural dice roll that can't be effected by modifiers at all.

As for the custom Obsessions, it specifically says to pick two of the options available to form your new Obsession unless stated otherwise.

BrianDavion wrote:

Whats the status of the Custoders Codex that has both GW and FW models?

Not sure what drugs you're on but there aren't any forge world models in the custodes codex.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Forgeworld_Custodes_Datasheets.pdf

Looks like its been shelved so they focuss exculsively on MARINES for 40k - just like Gw....awesome.

This and the same for Sisters of Silence might have been a nice thing for Chapter Approved - bet its filled with more Marines stuff

Apple fox wrote:
I feel a little like this is just the end result of a studio that does not care about the game as a whole, and would rather work on there faverate parts of it.

Its kinda sad the situation some of these factions are in when just rules updates could be enough to really give them some interesting updates.
If minis are really just not going to happen, at least good rules can keep up interest and people getting into them. But it really does feel like GW wants to turn 40k into 30k, Even why they seem to be trying to kill off 30k at this point.

Kinda yeah. Space marines are the easy mode faction so it makes sense that they need extra special rules to keep them interesting and different from each other. Stealing other factions special abilities makes them a good sampler platter faction too.

 Mr Morden wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Whats the status of the Custoders Codex that has both GW and FW models?

Not sure what drugs you're on but there aren't any forge world models in the custodes codex.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Forgeworld_Custodes_Datasheets.pdf

Looks like its been shelved so they focuss exculsively on MARINES for 40k - just like Gw....awesome.

This and the same for Sisters of Silence might have been a nice thing for Chapter Approved - bet its filled with more Marines stuff

... I'm sorry but do you really think a handful of 40k rules for an existing faction is the same as a army with no codex whatsoever?

Apple fox wrote:
I feel a little like this is just the end result of a studio that does not care about the game as a whole, and would rather work on there faverate parts of it.

Lol where is this BS coming from. They have only released 2.0 marine stuff since August 2019. The last space marine code was in July 2017. That is a 2 year cycle which sounds about right. Sure in between they released some primaris stuff but that is also more to do with their IP reshuffle and most of it was non-competitive until 2.0 came out.

GW have made no indication that they are igoring all other factions. In fact they are working to re-release the whole Sisters faction. It seems your comment is pretty nonsense.

 Smirrors wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
I feel a little like this is just the end result of a studio that does not care about the game as a whole, and would rather work on there faverate parts of it.

Lol where is this BS coming from. They have only released 2.0 marine stuff since August 2019. The last space marine code was in July 2017. That is a 2 year cycle which sounds about right. Sure in between they released some primaris stuff but that is also more to do with their IP reshuffle and most of it was non-competitive until 2.0 came out.

GW have made no indication that they are igoring all other factions. In fact they are working to re-release the whole Sisters faction. It seems your comment is pretty nonsense.

I don't know man. Ever since I got back into the hobby around a year ago, It has been all marines, all of the time. Relentlessly. Model after model, article after article...
Then came the books, with more models and just knocked the power creep out the park. Sure its part hyperbole part envy but a lot of players might justifiably feel they are now playing a generic NPC faction #1. I'm fortunate to have decent rules despite having old ass failcast model range so I can live with it to a degree as I'm not bored with list building.

 Smirrors wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
I feel a little like this is just the end result of a studio that does not care about the game as a whole, and would rather work on there faverate parts of it.

Lol where is this BS coming from. They have only released 2.0 marine stuff since August 2019. The last space marine code was in July 2017. That is a 2 year cycle which sounds about right. Sure in between they released some primaris stuff but that is also more to do with their IP reshuffle and most of it was non-competitive until 2.0 came out.

GW have made no indication that they are igoring all other factions. In fact they are working to re-release the whole Sisters faction. It seems your comment is pretty nonsense.

Considering this is about a crap book for a faction that has been left in just the state i feel is the issue, Which i play. I have been waiting 20 years for a single model to get a update, and still not likely to get it. Yea, I think its fairly reasonable to think such a thing.

2 years, would not be long if i even expected them to release anything i wanted. But that is a long time when trying to get interest in a game, Marines get massive amounts of support. and other factions do not even get the same effort to there books.

The lack of care in the rules is kind of shocking. You'd think the bean counters would have long ago realized having great swathes of minis and some whole factions being terrible in the game is not good business.

Your store employees reporting back that players actively warn customers against investing in them should have corrected this long ago.

 Eldarain wrote:
The lack of care in the rules is kind of shocking. You'd think the bean counters would have long ago realized having great swathes of minis and some whole factions being terrible in the game is not good business.

Your store employees reporting back that players actively warn customers against investing in them should have corrected this long ago.

Agreed about the rules quality. Not sure I agree about the employee feedback though. IME, most GW stores are filled with either young kids just getting into the hobby or GW fanboys who likely don't play any games outside of GW ones and aren't really aware of the wider hobby. Most of the more jaded gamers don't go to GW stores at all, except maybe to quickly go in and out to pick up some paint, for example so there's not much warning against buying certain armies or models from your average GW customer. I think this may be a bit of a problem in terms of gathering feedback because GW stores likely have quite skewed feedback about the quality of the rules in particular. Obviously I'm not saying every GW store and every customer is like this but there's a definite difference that I've noticed in the attitudes of gamers in an FLGS compared to a GW store.

What is wrong about playing games at stores, plus I have seen a ton of GW games playing people that hate GW itself a lot.

Karol wrote:
What is wrong about playing games at stores, plus I have seen a ton of GW games playing people that hate GW itself a lot.

I'm talking specifically about GW stores, not FLGS. Not sure if they actually have any GW stores in Poland but in the UK there's one in every city and in general the customers of them tend not to be fully representative of the wider gaming community.

there is one, and everyone hates GW in it, because they only let people play on 1 out of 3 tables, and only demo games.

But even if we talk about other places. I really doubt that any GW going player, would be happy the last eldar or csm book. Specially if they main those armies. It is one thing to do stuff like trolling online, it is a way different thing to do it in real life, when you have to go back to the store next week.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Whats the status of the Custoders Codex that has both GW and FW models?

Not sure what drugs you're on but there aren't any forge world models in the custodes codex.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Forgeworld_Custodes_Datasheets.pdf

Looks like its been shelved so they focuss exculsively on MARINES for 40k - just like Gw....awesome.

This and the same for Sisters of Silence might have been a nice thing for Chapter Approved - bet its filled with more Marines stuff

... I'm sorry but do you really think a handful of 40k rules for an existing faction is the same as a army with no codex whatsoever?

Sorry what?

This is an offical bet codex - right? It has FW models in it - hence I answered your snarky question.

The Autumn of Marines (to contrast with the Spring, Summer and Winter of............. Marines)
1. Space Marine 2.0 dex with models,
2. then we had Supplements with models,
3. Now we have PA no 2 - 10 more pages of rules for for baseline Marines (despite just having a codex for feths sake) - oh and another Marine rules supplement for BlackTemplars.

I wonder what PA 3 will be full of..... could it be .....Marines

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

Karol wrote:
Maybe Is it my english, although am not very fluent in polish either. I said, I understand that people not like having bad rules, I just don't understand how they could think that at some time they would get them. Am deeply suprised by it, because here everyone knows that good times are just a short break between long times of bad.

Am suprised that somehow eldar players were expecting that GW would be making good eldar rules. It is strange to me.

My problem with GK are that they are bad when I play them, if the uncoming CA made them awesome for a year, and then again they would be bad. I would be okey with them being bad again. The problem is that sometimes factions wait decades to get a good book. I don't even know what I am going to be doing in 2 years, 10 years is more then 2/3 of my life.

part of the problem with PA is it didn't really help the CWE or DE units that needed a bit of buff love, mostly the ones that have been copy/pastes for the last few editions, and even the rules that do help them are better on the already good units

Every aspect got better with maybe the execption of banshees...banshees didn't really get better.
3d6 pick the highest advance is great for fire dragons.
5++ save is great for swooping hawks
Dires got 2 good abilities - exploding 6's and +1tohit and wound after losing a model
Shinning spears got the absurd 3++ exarch and the also really good 6" pile in
Warp spiders can now come in RR all hits from DS or get a free move shunt on any turn
Crimsons got 2+ to hit ability
Scoprs can take -1 to hit in cover OR 5+ to deal mortals
Reapers got a free EML shot per squad.

You could realistically take any of these units but banshees and put them to great use if you so desired in in competitive. Not to mention ignore cover and always counts in cover for some really easy mode games. +4 inch shuriken range is also REALLY good. Plus the new warlock powers? Some of those are pretty good too.

DE did get pretty screwed but it's not like they really needed better rules. Realistically the Drazar buff makes taking 2 kabal batalions much more palpable. Plus now that you can take ynnari HQ's in detachments so you don't have to take 3 redundant archons. They did get some okay buffs to covens (I really don't care about covens). Scourges and mardrakes and incubi not getting their kabal traits is PRETTY effing weak though...they should really fix that...it is so annoying not getting my flayed skull trait on scourges.

Ynnari I feel got the most screwed. They are just so bad - no reason to ever play them.

You posted the same thing related to how good aspect warriors and I think you're misunderstanding that the units at their core aren't good enough to see competitive play. The Exarch traits only really buffed Shining Spears (still expensive), CHEs and Dark Reapers. The rest of the aspects weren't used before and they won't be used now except for screening, where someone used Swooping Hawks for their screening ability causing -2 to charge.

Realistically, no you can't take any of these units in competitive play because there are better units in the codex and they're outclassed by opposing armies.

Swooping hawks are a model issue IMO. They were already good enough to see play. They have great range and mobiliy and fire a ton of shots. S3 is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. Plus they are quite cheap. Their issue is they are a crap fine cast model that literally no one can store them without breaking (all of mine had their wings come off on the regular). If they come out with new models I know I would include at least 2 5 man units to pressure objectives maybe with the 6 shot hawks talon ability or the 5++ save for larger units. They can also deal mortal wounds...the unit is pretty effing good in itc mission.

Warp spiders have also just been buffed huge. I don't know if they will start getting picked up now but with the ability to shunt turn 1 OR deepstrike in an reroll all hits - they are going to be good. Don't make the mistake of thinking that because people aren't playing with something it doesn't mean it's not good. Between hemlocks and crimson hunters and shinning spears (3 of the best units in the entire game) it is really hard to get into an eldar list.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Don't make the mistake of thinking that because people aren't playing with something it doesn't mean it's not good. Between hemlocks and crimson hunters and shinning spears (3 of the best units in the entire game) it is really hard to get into an eldar list.

I could friggin' kiss you right now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Don't make the mistake of thinking that because people aren't playing with something it doesn't mean it's not good. Between hemlocks and crimson hunters and shinning spears (3 of the best units in the entire game) it is really hard to get into an eldar list.

I could friggin' kiss you right now.

.

Xenomancers wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

Karol wrote:
Maybe Is it my english, although am not very fluent in polish either. I said, I understand that people not like having bad rules, I just don't understand how they could think that at some time they would get them. Am deeply suprised by it, because here everyone knows that good times are just a short break between long times of bad.

Am suprised that somehow eldar players were expecting that GW would be making good eldar rules. It is strange to me.

My problem with GK are that they are bad when I play them, if the uncoming CA made them awesome for a year, and then again they would be bad. I would be okey with them being bad again. The problem is that sometimes factions wait decades to get a good book. I don't even know what I am going to be doing in 2 years, 10 years is more then 2/3 of my life.

part of the problem with PA is it didn't really help the CWE or DE units that needed a bit of buff love, mostly the ones that have been copy/pastes for the last few editions, and even the rules that do help them are better on the already good units

Every aspect got better with maybe the execption of banshees...banshees didn't really get better.
3d6 pick the highest advance is great for fire dragons.
5++ save is great for swooping hawks
Dires got 2 good abilities - exploding 6's and +1tohit and wound after losing a model
Shinning spears got the absurd 3++ exarch and the also really good 6" pile in
Warp spiders can now come in RR all hits from DS or get a free move shunt on any turn
Crimsons got 2+ to hit ability
Scoprs can take -1 to hit in cover OR 5+ to deal mortals
Reapers got a free EML shot per squad.

You could realistically take any of these units but banshees and put them to great use if you so desired in in competitive. Not to mention ignore cover and always counts in cover for some really easy mode games. +4 inch shuriken range is also REALLY good. Plus the new warlock powers? Some of those are pretty good too.

DE did get pretty screwed but it's not like they really needed better rules. Realistically the Drazar buff makes taking 2 kabal batalions much more palpable. Plus now that you can take ynnari HQ's in detachments so you don't have to take 3 redundant archons. They did get some okay buffs to covens (I really don't care about covens). Scourges and mardrakes and incubi not getting their kabal traits is PRETTY effing weak though...they should really fix that...it is so annoying not getting my flayed skull trait on scourges.

Ynnari I feel got the most screwed. They are just so bad - no reason to ever play them.

You posted the same thing related to how good aspect warriors and I think you're misunderstanding that the units at their core aren't good enough to see competitive play. The Exarch traits only really buffed Shining Spears (still expensive), CHEs and Dark Reapers. The rest of the aspects weren't used before and they won't be used now except for screening, where someone used Swooping Hawks for their screening ability causing -2 to charge.

Realistically, no you can't take any of these units in competitive play because there are better units in the codex and they're outclassed by opposing armies.

Swooping hawks are a model issue IMO. They were already good enough to see play. They have great range and mobiliy and fire a ton of shots. S3 is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. Plus they are quite cheap. Their issue is they are a crap fine cast model that literally no one can store them without breaking (all of mine had their wings come off on the regular). If they come out with new models I know I would include at least 2 5 man units to pressure objectives maybe with the 6 shot hawks talon ability or the 5++ save for larger units. They can also deal mortal wounds...the unit is pretty effing good in itc mission.

Warp spiders have also just been buffed huge. I don't know if they will start getting picked up now but with the ability to shunt turn 1 OR deepstrike in an reroll all hits - they are going to be good. Don't make the mistake of thinking that because people aren't playing with something it doesn't mean it's not good. Between hemlocks and crimson hunters and shinning spears (3 of the best units in the entire game) it is really hard to get into an eldar list.

Having brought Swooping Hawks to an ITC tournament myself two weeks ago, they were a points filler unit. In the games where I played against GEQs (IG and Tau) they were wonderful for clearing chaff but when push came to shove they didn't do enough/weren't strong enough to compete against anything else. I've kept trying them and the best use they have for now is screening against deepstrike with their suppressing fire.

It might be worth trying out Spiders, I like them a lot but right now I'm not seeing why I'd take them over the better units in the codex.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Don't make the mistake of thinking that because people aren't playing with something it doesn't mean it's not good. Between hemlocks and crimson hunters and shinning spears (3 of the best units in the entire game) it is really hard to get into an eldar list.

I could friggin' kiss you right now.

For saying something I didn't say? By that comment that means those units we've been discussing still aren't good enough to see competitive play, because if they were, they'd push out the aforementioned competitive units from lists. As I said about Hawks above, they're good, but not quite there.

I wasn't trying to be offensive. It seems you are ruling out a few of the aspects because players aren't using them. That isn't a good reason is all I am saying. Between net listers and serious competition for point in the eldar codex a lot of good units get overlooked.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

For saying something I didn't say? By that comment that means those units we've been discussing still aren't good enough to see competitive play, because if they were, they'd push out the aforementioned competitive units from lists. As I said about Hawks above, they're good, but not quite there.

No no. Don't mistake me. I was just commenting on the general applicability of his comment. I wasn't taking it in context of any disagreements. Sorry if it seemed that way.

Hawks are kinda good? I think, if you don't have a better target for Protect, then a 10-hawk squad with Evade could be quite interesting. Masters of concealment and Protect would give them a 2+/4++ at over 12" away, at which point it's looking a bit annoying. Still, it's 133pts for S3 T3 infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(And by kinda good I mean 10 would do around 3 damage to marines. They don't like marines at all, and marines are gakking everywhere...)

Problem with Hawks is that they are over specialised. Really good at doing damage to chaff units and lightly armoured T4 units like Boyz but not much good against anything else, at that point you're better off going with Shuriken weapons because they're good at both.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I wasn't trying to be offensive. It seems you are ruling out a few of the aspects because players aren't using them. That isn't a good reason is all I am saying. Between net listers and serious competition for point in the eldar codex a lot of good units get overlooked.

People are not ruling out units because they havent tried them and "nobody takes thise so they must be ttash". Any player worth their salt will experiment as new rules come out to try and out meta the meta... People are ruling out units because they have tried them and there are glaring inefficiencues when comparing to internal and external units.

 Argive wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I wasn't trying to be offensive. It seems you are ruling out a few of the aspects because players aren't using them. That isn't a good reason is all I am saying. Between net listers and serious competition for point in the eldar codex a lot of good units get overlooked.

People are not ruling out units because they havent tried them and "nobody takes thise so they must be ttash". Any player worth their salt will experiment as new rules come out to try and out meta the meta... People are ruling out units because they have tried them and there are glaring inefficiencues when comparing to internal and external units.

I'd be much more willing to try with spiders and hawks if they didn't have such terrible models. I can't be the only one.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I wasn't trying to be offensive. It seems you are ruling out a few of the aspects because players aren't using them. That isn't a good reason is all I am saying. Between net listers and serious competition for point in the eldar codex a lot of good units get overlooked.

People are not ruling out units because they havent tried them and "nobody takes thise so they must be ttash". Any player worth their salt will experiment as new rules come out to try and out meta the meta... People are ruling out units because they have tried them and there are glaring inefficiencues when comparing to internal and external units.

I'd be much more willing to try with spiders and hawks if they didn't have such terrible models. I can't be the only one.

I like Hawks. Spiders are pretty awful if you want to take more than two models of them though. They're one of many things GW can't be bothered to fix because moar mrns.

Swooping Hawks can have a place in a list, but they don't have much of a place in an all-comers style list. They're exceptionally fragile (the 5+ could help, but...still not enough). Their lasblasters are inexplicably 7 points, and I'm not sure why. A 4-point Guardsman can fire its lasgun four times at the same range with an order... A storm bolter is 2 points, but the lasblaster is 7. The mortal wound grenade pack is "okay", and I think the better stratagem might be the 5+ grenades. Mortal wounds are simply a good balancing bit if your Hawks are going to be swept off the table almost immediately.

With 24" range they can land and hamper just about anything. Against a solid Knight or heavy marine list they're less useful.

Warp Spiders are arguably one of the worst Aspects to me, but the new Exarch power gives them a purpose, if only in a slightly gamey/tournament way. Their ability to re-deepstrike could be huge. It's not limited to Turn 3, etc. It's any point during the game, so if you bring some in and keep them alive, that's massive potential to zip across the board and grab whatever objective or secondary objective you need, etc. Their gun is still pointless and their whole purpose is still...fuzzy at best. They can be hard to hit and have decent armour, but their guns aren't good at killing anything. Not enough shots to deal with chaff and not strong enough (no AP, except on '6') to really target bigger things. They're very confusing. They are relatively cheap and I think a clever player could use their new ability to win objectives - particularly since your opponent may not be aware of it for a while.

A lot of players will assume that once everything has deepstruck that's it...so the Spiders teleporting across the board again might catch people off guard.

 Imateria wrote:
Problem with Hawks is that they are over specialised. Really good at doing damage to chaff units and lightly armoured T4 units like Boyz but not much good against anything else, at that point you're better off going with Shuriken weapons because they're good at both.

So...Windriders or warwalkers.
60 point WW is really not bad but no fly and needing to get within 24" of their target will invite tie up charges - that scares me. 6 man hawks with a hawks talon (and the 6 shot ability for the exarch) costs 3 points more than a 3 man wind rider with SC. 9 shots compared to 26(with 6 being str 5). It is a big difference in firepower - especially if doom is applied.

The hawks can get into buildings. Can deep strike for free. Can cause mortal wounds to big units. Can redeploy from the table and deep strike in the next turn too. IMO they are a great unit and they were already great (they just have bad modles) with a pretty big buff for the cost of free...they will start seeing play - they are too good not to use at this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
Swooping Hawks can have a place in a list, but they don't have much of a place in an all-comers style list. They're exceptionally fragile (the 5+ could help, but...still not enough). Their lasblasters are inexplicably 7 points, and I'm not sure why. A 4-point Guardsman can fire its lasgun four times at the same range with an order... A storm bolter is 2 points, but the lasblaster is 7. The mortal wound grenade pack is "okay", and I think the better stratagem might be the 5+ grenades. Mortal wounds are simply a good balancing bit if your Hawks are going to be swept off the table almost immediately.

With 24" range they can land and hamper just about anything. Against a solid Knight or heavy marine list they're less useful.

Warp Spiders are arguably one of the worst Aspects to me, but the new Exarch power gives them a purpose, if only in a slightly gamey/tournament way. Their ability to re-deepstrike could be huge. It's not limited to Turn 3, etc. It's any point during the game, so if you bring some in and keep them alive, that's massive potential to zip across the board and grab whatever objective or secondary objective you need, etc. Their gun is still pointless and their whole purpose is still...fuzzy at best. They can be hard to hit and have decent armour, but their guns aren't good at killing anything. Not enough shots to deal with chaff and not strong enough (no AP, except on '6') to really target bigger things. They're very confusing. They are relatively cheap and I think a clever player could use their new ability to win objectives - particularly since your opponent may not be aware of it for a while.

A lot of players will assume that once everything has deepstruck that's it...so the Spiders teleporting across the board again might catch people off guard.

Point costs of weapons often don't reflect their true value. The total cost of the unit is all that matters. Gaurdsmen costing 4 is kind of...silly at this point but you basically get 3 per hawk. Realistically though hawks are one of the best units you have for removing guardsmen.

War Walkers can also deep strike for free in the form of outflank. A 60 point War Walker has battle focus, can challenge light armour and chaff. Its very durable with T6, 4+/5++ so it's excellent at being ignored or soaking up fire that would otherwise be directed elsewhere. 180 points for 18 wounds pumping 18 shots. If it gets tarpitted, who cares because the unit charging it probably costed more.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

Karol wrote:
Maybe Is it my english, although am not very fluent in polish either. I said, I understand that people not like having bad rules, I just don't understand how they could think that at some time they would get them. Am deeply suprised by it, because here everyone knows that good times are just a short break between long times of bad.

Am suprised that somehow eldar players were expecting that GW would be making good eldar rules. It is strange to me.

My problem with GK are that they are bad when I play them, if the uncoming CA made them awesome for a year, and then again they would be bad. I would be okey with them being bad again. The problem is that sometimes factions wait decades to get a good book. I don't even know what I am going to be doing in 2 years, 10 years is more then 2/3 of my life.

part of the problem with PA is it didn't really help the CWE or DE units that needed a bit of buff love, mostly the ones that have been copy/pastes for the last few editions, and even the rules that do help them are better on the already good units

Every aspect got better with maybe the execption of banshees...banshees didn't really get better.
3d6 pick the highest advance is great for fire dragons.
5++ save is great for swooping hawks
Dires got 2 good abilities - exploding 6's and +1tohit and wound after losing a model
Shinning spears got the absurd 3++ exarch and the also really good 6" pile in
Warp spiders can now come in RR all hits from DS or get a free move shunt on any turn
Crimsons got 2+ to hit ability
Scoprs can take -1 to hit in cover OR 5+ to deal mortals
Reapers got a free EML shot per squad.

You could realistically take any of these units but banshees and put them to great use if you so desired in in competitive. Not to mention ignore cover and always counts in cover for some really easy mode games. +4 inch shuriken range is also REALLY good. Plus the new warlock powers? Some of those are pretty good too.

DE did get pretty screwed but it's not like they really needed better rules. Realistically the Drazar buff makes taking 2 kabal batalions much more palpable. Plus now that you can take ynnari HQ's in detachments so you don't have to take 3 redundant archons. They did get some okay buffs to covens (I really don't care about covens). Scourges and mardrakes and incubi not getting their kabal traits is PRETTY effing weak though...they should really fix that...it is so annoying not getting my flayed skull trait on scourges.

Ynnari I feel got the most screwed. They are just so bad - no reason to ever play them.

You posted the same thing related to how good aspect warriors and I think you're misunderstanding that the units at their core aren't good enough to see competitive play. The Exarch traits only really buffed Shining Spears (still expensive), CHEs and Dark Reapers. The rest of the aspects weren't used before and they won't be used now except for screening, where someone used Swooping Hawks for their screening ability causing -2 to charge.

Realistically, no you can't take any of these units in competitive play because there are better units in the codex and they're outclassed by opposing armies.

Swooping hawks are a model issue IMO. They were already good enough to see play. They have great range and mobiliy and fire a ton of shots. S3 is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. Plus they are quite cheap. Their issue is they are a crap fine cast model that literally no one can store them without breaking (all of mine had their wings come off on the regular). If they come out with new models I know I would include at least 2 5 man units to pressure objectives maybe with the 6 shot hawks talon ability or the 5++ save for larger units. They can also deal mortal wounds...the unit is pretty effing good in itc mission.

Warp spiders have also just been buffed huge. I don't know if they will start getting picked up now but with the ability to shunt turn 1 OR deepstrike in an reroll all hits - they are going to be good. Don't make the mistake of thinking that because people aren't playing with something it doesn't mean it's not good. Between hemlocks and crimson hunters and shinning spears (3 of the best units in the entire game) it is really hard to get into an eldar list.

Str3 is real problem, my swooping haws really do any damage vs keqs and bounce vs megs.
Squad 20 shoots killed 2-3 boys, without doom they are worthless, one more finesse unit aeldar you take just to fill your list. They bounce hard on every T4 unit and the lack of AP is not helping.
They are good at going back into sky and steal some late game points(linebreaker), but they really lack killing power to compensate for that 13 pts price tag.
5++ on them is a waste, because they just save on 4+, bolters just shred them even in cover. There is no reason for them to be more than 11 pts.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
War Walkers can also deep strike for free in the form of outflank. A 60 point War Walker has battle focus, can challenge light armour and chaff. Its very durable with T6, 4+/5++ so it's excellent at being ignored or soaking up fire that would otherwise be directed elsewhere. 180 points for 18 wounds pumping 18 shots. If it gets tarpitted, who cares because the unit charging it probably costed more.

I`m also thinking about walkers, tough, cheap vehicle with invul is probably the best think CWE could bring in this SM madness.
I`m thinking also about Wraithlords with aeldar launchers.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
War Walkers can also deep strike for free in the form of outflank. A 60 point War Walker has battle focus, can challenge light armour and chaff. Its very durable with T6, 4+/5++ so it's excellent at being ignored or soaking up fire that would otherwise be directed elsewhere. 180 points for 18 wounds pumping 18 shots. If it gets tarpitted, who cares because the unit charging it probably costed more.

I agree they aren't bad. I always take starcannons though so it is a different roll.

I've used a min squad of scorpions for objective grabbing, 55 points is not much for a 2+ save in cover with a minus one to hit from the exarch. I wouldn't use them for much else but they're pretty good for this purpose.

Marin wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

Karol wrote:
Maybe Is it my english, although am not very fluent in polish either. I said, I understand that people not like having bad rules, I just don't understand how they could think that at some time they would get them. Am deeply suprised by it, because here everyone knows that good times are just a short break between long times of bad.

Am suprised that somehow eldar players were expecting that GW would be making good eldar rules. It is strange to me.

My problem with GK are that they are bad when I play them, if the uncoming CA made them awesome for a year, and then again they would be bad. I would be okey with them being bad again. The problem is that sometimes factions wait decades to get a good book. I don't even know what I am going to be doing in 2 years, 10 years is more then 2/3 of my life.

part of the problem with PA is it didn't really help the CWE or DE units that needed a bit of buff love, mostly the ones that have been copy/pastes for the last few editions, and even the rules that do help them are better on the already good units

Every aspect got better with maybe the execption of banshees...banshees didn't really get better.
3d6 pick the highest advance is great for fire dragons.
5++ save is great for swooping hawks
Dires got 2 good abilities - exploding 6's and +1tohit and wound after losing a model
Shinning spears got the absurd 3++ exarch and the also really good 6" pile in
Warp spiders can now come in RR all hits from DS or get a free move shunt on any turn
Crimsons got 2+ to hit ability
Scoprs can take -1 to hit in cover OR 5+ to deal mortals
Reapers got a free EML shot per squad.

You could realistically take any of these units but banshees and put them to great use if you so desired in in competitive. Not to mention ignore cover and always counts in cover for some really easy mode games. +4 inch shuriken range is also REALLY good. Plus the new warlock powers? Some of those are pretty good too.

DE did get pretty screwed but it's not like they really needed better rules. Realistically the Drazar buff makes taking 2 kabal batalions much more palpable. Plus now that you can take ynnari HQ's in detachments so you don't have to take 3 redundant archons. They did get some okay buffs to covens (I really don't care about covens). Scourges and mardrakes and incubi not getting their kabal traits is PRETTY effing weak though...they should really fix that...it is so annoying not getting my flayed skull trait on scourges.

Ynnari I feel got the most screwed. They are just so bad - no reason to ever play them.

You posted the same thing related to how good aspect warriors and I think you're misunderstanding that the units at their core aren't good enough to see competitive play. The Exarch traits only really buffed Shining Spears (still expensive), CHEs and Dark Reapers. The rest of the aspects weren't used before and they won't be used now except for screening, where someone used Swooping Hawks for their screening ability causing -2 to charge.

Realistically, no you can't take any of these units in competitive play because there are better units in the codex and they're outclassed by opposing armies.

Swooping hawks are a model issue IMO. They were already good enough to see play. They have great range and mobiliy and fire a ton of shots. S3 is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. Plus they are quite cheap. Their issue is they are a crap fine cast model that literally no one can store them without breaking (all of mine had their wings come off on the regular). If they come out with new models I know I would include at least 2 5 man units to pressure objectives maybe with the 6 shot hawks talon ability or the 5++ save for larger units. They can also deal mortal wounds...the unit is pretty effing good in itc mission.

Warp spiders have also just been buffed huge. I don't know if they will start getting picked up now but with the ability to shunt turn 1 OR deepstrike in an reroll all hits - they are going to be good. Don't make the mistake of thinking that because people aren't playing with something it doesn't mean it's not good. Between hemlocks and crimson hunters and shinning spears (3 of the best units in the entire game) it is really hard to get into an eldar list.

Str3 is real problem, my swooping haws really do any damage vs keqs and bounce vs megs.
Squad 20 shoots killed 2-3 boys, without doom they are worthless, one more finesse unit aeldar you take just to fill your list. They bounce hard on every T4 unit and the lack of AP is not helping.
They are good at going back into sky and steal some late game points(linebreaker), but they really lack killing power to compensate for that 13 pts price tag.
5++ on them is a waste, because they just save on 4+, bolters just shred them even in cover. There is no reason for them to be more than 11 pts.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
War Walkers can also deep strike for free in the form of outflank. A 60 point War Walker has battle focus, can challenge light armour and chaff. Its very durable with T6, 4+/5++ so it's excellent at being ignored or soaking up fire that would otherwise be directed elsewhere. 180 points for 18 wounds pumping 18 shots. If it gets tarpitted, who cares because the unit charging it probably costed more.

I`m also thinking about walkers, tough, cheap vehicle with invul is probably the best think CWE could bring in this SM madness.
I`m thinking also about Wraithlords with aeldar launchers.

The WL suffers from degradation issue. And I think hes is an expensive platform for EML compared to a walker. Plus side is you can counter charge comfortably and hes happy being in melee for the most part. But then you loose out on that expensive EML shooting..really he wants to be running forward distraction carnifex style to draw all that fire for his T8 but relative low costs and try and dice up some vehicles.

With the new book, some Eldar units do seem to have a new lease of life. A 10 man scorp unit with claw is only 118pts, That's pretty cheap for mortal wounds on a 5+, in addition to the actual attacks and what they do to units in cover.

Then you have MSU Avengers in Serpents with Shredding Fire, Hail of Doom, and Mobile Fighters (or Expert Crafters and take an Autarch).

There is some good stuff overall, it just has to be geared right using multiple craftworlds to achieve a goal.

The rules encouraged me to finish my Swooping Hawk squad. I had 5 completed and am now finishing the other five (I use the models made by Ghost Miniatures). The MW on 5+ has merit, although I admit I am hoping for a slight points adjustment in the upcoming CA.

To me, the book is clearly not on the same level as the current Marine releases, but I am having fun and challenging games against non Marine armies (still working through the current Marine challenge).

 Sarigar wrote:
T
To me, the book is clearly not on the same level as the current Marine releases, but I am having fun and challenging games against non Marine armies (still working through the current Marine challenge).

True.
Some of the new supplement codices are much stronger.
In the Phoenix rising book you have to choose the Exarch abilities wisely to get some milage out of your Aspects.

it is a bad book rules wise(the only thing I care about). The only reason you'd have it is for the minuscule increase in power of one of Eldars' already strongest unit. They should have reworked most of the traits and released new datasheets for aspect warriors alongside a plastic range. Not just Banshees and even then, without making them any more worthwhile having in a list.

Good book, for every bad stuff there is some stuff which nicely adds up to things we were lacking before.

Fanfiction level lore though.

kingheff wrote:
I've used a min squad of scorpions for objective grabbing, 55 points is not much for a 2+ save in cover with a minus one to hit from the exarch. I wouldn't use them for much else but they're pretty good for this purpose.

Scorpions definitely have a place, more so now than ever before. Skip the -1 to hit nonsense. The unit does a mortal wound on infantry with a 5+ (per model). Most importantly this is done at the "beginning of the Fight Phase" in both turns...and that pre-empts even units that fight first, protecting them against charges, and going second during your opponents turn. They have 3+ armour allowing them to soak a decent amount of fire.

Getting there is of course still the issue, but we have Wave Serpents. Oddly their deep striking ability is probably best ignored. They're much more reliable damage output when deployed with a higher chance of charging. I ran two squads of 10 a few games and they reliably did 3-4 mortal wounds per fight phase. Yes their pistol and their chainswords are relatively pointless, but their armour and their mortal wound output was decent. Not tournament-winning, but it was a massive boon to their lethality. I was facing Primaris too, so it was nice to skip the toughness/armour, etc.

Add in the scorpions claw for additional kills and the unit now really delivers. They're cheaper than Banshees and actually do things. I'd actually argue that the bump to Scorpions is why I think Banshees got worse in this book. Do I care about your power sword when I do mortal wounds on a 5+ each phase? Nope. The only thing Banshees have is speed and ignoring Overwatch, but they're more expensive and have less damage output (and worse armour).

In addition, the Scorpions have a weirdly worded rule where they gain +1 to enemy units in cover...both shooting and close combat as far as I can tell. So if they charge an opposing unit in cover they're shooting/hitting on 2+ which is a bit silly. Banshees have no such bonus.

Well, I plan to use the Ynnari HQs in Aeldari armies other than Ynnari
such as Harlies with a battalion (troupes in starweavers, outrider detachment (lots of skyweavers) and Yncarne.

 Imateria wrote:
Problem with Hawks is that they are over specialised. Really good at doing damage to chaff units and lightly armoured T4 units like Boyz but not much good against anything else, at that point you're better off going with Shuriken weapons because they're good at both.

Imo hawks are an example of the terrible design of aspect warriors. It's a unit that's locked into fighting one extremely specific profile, so bringing them to tournaments is too much like flipping a coin

It's worth noting that the best aspects are still specialists at heart (spears as short-ranged cavalry, reapers as weapon squad), but they're not limited to hunting only one specific unit type

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I plan to use the Ynnari HQs in Aeldari armies other than Ynnari
such as Harlies with a battalion (troupes in starweavers, outrider detachment (lots of skyweavers) and Yncarne.

Doesn't this stop the detachment be battle forged?
I got my copy of the book at home but I cant remember what the ynari rules are. Always been pure CWE.

Of all the take aways from this thread, i'm just suprised I haven't seen a single post from baconcatbug that I can laugh at

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Problem with Hawks is that they are over specialised. Really good at doing damage to chaff units and lightly armoured T4 units like Boyz but not much good against anything else, at that point you're better off going with Shuriken weapons because they're good at both.

Imo hawks are an example of the terrible design of aspect warriors. It's a unit that's locked into fighting one extremely specific profile, so bringing them to tournaments is too much like flipping a coin

It's worth noting that the best aspects are still specialists at heart (spears as short-ranged cavalry, reapers as weapon squad), but they're not limited to hunting only one specific unit type

Hawks are an excellent example of an Aspect Unit. Highly specialised unit very good at doing one thing. I don't get the complain. Its the eldar way. Highly specialised tools for the right job. Even though some aspects fail at that due to reasons. E.g Banshees not being killy in melee, scorpions not actually able to infiltrate etc. I don't want units all become generically good at everything..

The only thing that bugs me is that you can only drop x amount of grenades per enemy model... So if 5 hawks fly over a single model entity, you only roll one dice. So the other 4 guys just don't bother throwing their grenades? Having them drop all the grenades on whatever unit they choose all the tie would probably be a bit OP and make them good at killing single entities with MW though. I think they are an awesome unit (not awesome for marine meta, but then again what is?). If they weren't crappy finecast Id build me a squad of 10 for sure.

 Argive wrote:


Hawks are an excellent example of an Aspect Unit. Highly specialised unit very good at doing one thing. I don't get the complain. Its the eldar way. Highly specialised tools for the right job. Even though some aspects fail at that due to reasons. E.g Banshees not being killy in melee, scorpions not actually able to infiltrate etc. I don't want units all become generically good at everything..

Yes and a hyper-specialized unit to fight a moderate amount of T3, low save models is such a hilariously quaint concept in a game where Rapid Fire 6 hurricane bolters exist

Having them drop all the grenades on whatever unit they choose all the tie would probably be a bit OP and make them good at killing single entities with MW though. I think they are an awesome unit (not awesome for marine meta, but then again what is?). If they weren't crappy finecast Id build me a squad of 10 for sure.

lol for a full squad that comes out to 3-4 MW average with the new aspect trait. But apparently that would be "a bit OP" in the fight twice, shoot twice, hit on 2s with rerolls meta

Are you the guy who wrote the Ynnari rules and Phoenix Rising?

 Argive wrote:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Problem with Hawks is that they are over specialised. Really good at doing damage to chaff units and lightly armoured T4 units like Boyz but not much good against anything else, at that point you're better off going with Shuriken weapons because they're good at both.

Imo hawks are an example of the terrible design of aspect warriors. It's a unit that's locked into fighting one extremely specific profile, so bringing them to tournaments is too much like flipping a coin

It's worth noting that the best aspects are still specialists at heart (spears as short-ranged cavalry, reapers as weapon squad), but they're not limited to hunting only one specific unit type

Hawks are an excellent example of an Aspect Unit. Highly specialised unit very good at doing one thing. I don't get the complain. Its the eldar way. Highly specialised tools for the right job. Even though some aspects fail at that due to reasons. E.g Banshees not being killy in melee, scorpions not actually able to infiltrate etc. I don't want units all become generically good at everything..

The only thing that bugs me is that you can only drop x amount of grenades per enemy model... So if 5 hawks fly over a single model entity, you only roll one dice. So the other 4 guys just don't bother throwing their grenades? Having them drop all the grenades on whatever unit they choose all the tie would probably be a bit OP and make them good at killing single entities with MW though. I think they are an awesome unit (not awesome for marine meta, but then again what is?). If they weren't crappy finecast Id build me a squad of 10 for sure.

Sadly the problem is that those units are not good at their specialty. Those units should be so good that be able to do it even without support.

Hawks lack AP, so even with the amount of shoots without extra support they are not effective about clearing cheap guardsman.
I expect 13 pts model to be able to kill average 2 guardsman per shooting, 5 man hawks to be able to eliminate squad of guard, but usually they cant(and mathematically they should not).

Banshees can`t kill elite units, because of their lack of strenght and attacks.
Scorpions cant charge from deeepstrike without investing CP or support characters(new option that was lacking.
Fire dragons lack range, cant shoot from deepstrike and are to damn expensive, also the 1 shoot is nothing to be impressed. I have seen how full squad of 10 could not kill single russ tank.

I hate to tell you, but even 5 intercessors cant kill 2 IS on turn 1.

There is no way a single SH should kill 2.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I hate to tell you, but even 5 intercessors cant kill 2 IS on turn 1.

There is no way a single SH should kill 2.

I'm pretty sure they do...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I hate to tell you, but even 5 intercessors cant kill 2 IS on turn 1.

There is no way a single SH should kill 2.

I'm pretty sure they do...

They kill 3.7 if they're in Rapid Fire or stood still.

 Argive wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I plan to use the Ynnari HQs in Aeldari armies other than Ynnari
such as Harlies with a battalion (troupes in starweavers, outrider detachment (lots of skyweavers) and Yncarne.

Doesn't this stop the detachment be battle forged?
I got my copy of the book at home but I cant remember what the ynari rules are. Always been pure CWE.

The new(ish, they've been out since May) rules let you take the Ynnari characters in any type of Aeldari detachment and not break the detachment bonus requirements (Battleforged is just meeting the min requirements of a detachment and every unit having at least 1 faction keyword in common), so you can slot them into a Craftworlds detachment no problem. Just remember that you can't include them in a detachment with any other named characters.

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

 Argive wrote:


Hawks are an excellent example of an Aspect Unit. Highly specialised unit very good at doing one thing. I don't get the complain. Its the eldar way. Highly specialised tools for the right job. Even though some aspects fail at that due to reasons. E.g Banshees not being killy in melee, scorpions not actually able to infiltrate etc. I don't want units all become generically good at everything..

Yes and a hyper-specialized unit to fight a moderate amount of T3, low save models is such a hilariously quaint concept in a game where Rapid Fire 6 hurricane bolters exist

Having them drop all the grenades on whatever unit they choose all the tie would probably be a bit OP and make them good at killing single entities with MW though. I think they are an awesome unit (not awesome for marine meta, but then again what is?). If they weren't crappy finecast Id build me a squad of 10 for sure.

lol for a full squad that comes out to 3-4 MW average with the new aspect trait. But apparently that would be "a bit OP" in the fight twice, shoot twice, hit on 2s with rerolls meta

Are you the guy who wrote the Ynnari rules and Phoenix Rising?

Didint realise eldar have acess to hurricane bolters...

They pump out a lot of shots to clear t3 screens. Thats what they do so you can direct SC at other stuff. Im not saying they are SM intercessor amazing. They aint. But as a unit they fit their nieche pretty well for their point.

I get what you mean without you being snide.. the meta /sm codex creep is undeniable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Imateria wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I plan to use the Ynnari HQs in Aeldari armies other than Ynnari
such as Harlies with a battalion (troupes in starweavers, outrider detachment (lots of skyweavers) and Yncarne.

Doesn't this stop the detachment be battle forged?
I got my copy of the book at home but I cant remember what the ynari rules are. Always been pure CWE.

The new(ish, they've been out since May) rules let you take the Ynnari characters in any type of Aeldari detachment and not break the detachment bonus requirements (Battleforged is just meeting the min requirements of a detachment and every unit having at least 1 faction keyword in common), so you can slot them into a Craftworlds detachment no problem. Just remember that you can't include them in a detachment with any other named characters.

I guess their psychic powers/strats are locked into ynnari keyword.. need to cast my eye over their rules

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I hate to tell you, but even 5 intercessors cant kill 2 IS on turn 1.

There is no way a single SH should kill 2.

I'm pretty sure they do...

They kill 3.7 if they're in Rapid Fire or stood still.

Right, I should clarify - my brain was 1 shot from each, which results in half of that 3.7. Even with RF they don't come close to killing 2 IS per model.

Meanwhile SH are...

16 * .666 * .5 * .666 = 3.5
4 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 1.2

On M14 with BF, assault weapons, fly, and grenades. They're good at their job. They just aren't typically needed.

I don't know to laugh or cry, but I choose laugh. Are we really talking about how units designed to be specialized somehow don't measure up to tasks they should handle ?

I only find it funny as we often talk about how more mundane aspects of this game are handled so poorly, to expect them to get specialist units to excel in a certain area they are supposed to when they can't even get a clear grasp on what makes a unit good or bad in the first place seems to be a little crazy.

Getting these units to function well and not be OP, would be fundamentally a hard thing to do and I wouldn't really feel like GW will get it done without a lot of trial and error if they ever do it in the first place.

Many books suffer this fate, I give you guard Vanquisher tank, specialist AT vehicle, ever see them really ? Ever fear them ? Yeah, didn't think so. Tau Sniper drones, you know, snipers, good at taking out characters, yeah, not really, they are one of the worst snipers in the game easily.

There are many victims of this difficulty, Eldar aren't alone and honestly to play this game you need to except that some stuff just isn't handled right and just hope they eventually care enough to figure it out and fix it.

I don't know why anyone would be either surprised GW can't do that, or not expect it by now. If it turns out good, it's a miracle and lets not forget they do a pretty bad job with generalist units as well, speaking from the past. Despite marines current lime light, they have suffered from that for awhile. The basic tac marine being so ho hum forever, bikes have changed so much for so long to try and make them better and perhaps why they'd changed in just about every edition, assault marines.

The eldar PA book is pretty crap, but if I played eldar I'd just try and be happy they've seemed over all to be at the better end of the power curve for as long as they have.

there's also the fact that specialsit units may be designed with legacies of old editions that are no longer the case. for example, in 7th edition and earlier STR 8 (or higher) was great for dedicated character killers as it'd inflict instant death.

So a heavy 1, STR 8 weapon that could snipe a commander in a infantry squad would have been terrifying, but if it was translated as a S8 D2 heavy 1 sniper weapon in 8th... yeah the once terrifying weapon is now... pretty meh (this is a obvious case and is a fictional extreme case, I don't think any weapon is exactly like that in 8th ed) the 7th to 8th conversion was the biggest but I bet even as the editions went along we saw a degree of this.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Right, I should clarify - my brain was 1 shot from each, which results in half of that 3.7. Even with RF they don't come close to killing 2 IS per model.

Assault bolter Intercessors kill 4.4 guardsmen. If they shoot with CM/LT buffs in the tactical doctrine, that's 8.64 dead IS from 5 Intercessors. IF will kill 10.8..

Hell, give 5 Assault IF Intercessors no buffing characters, only tactical doctrine, and they kill 6.94 guardsmen, which is squad wipe with morale.

With the ease and cheapness and sheer spamminess of SM buffs, I really don't think we get anywhere by running numbers in the void anymore.

Marin wrote:

Hawks lack AP, so even with the amount of shoots without extra support they are not effective about clearing cheap guardsman.
I expect 13 pts model to be able to kill average 2 guardsman per shooting, 5 man hawks to be able to eliminate squad of guard, but usually they cant(and mathematically they should not).

Banshees can`t kill elite units, because of their lack of strenght and attacks.
Scorpions cant charge from deepstrike without investing CP or support characters(new option that was lacking.
Fire dragons lack range, cant shoot from deepstrike and are to damn expensive, also the 1 shoot is nothing to be impressed. I have seen how full squad of 10 could not kill single russ tank.

Scorpions might be better in a Wave serpent now, and are worth a look with the 5+ mortal wound output.
Banshees are a little sad for sure, especially with new models. Decapitating Strikes should have been for each model, not just the Exarch. The lack of attacks they have would then make the 6s do mortal wounds in addition far more dangerous.
Fire Dragons are indeed sad (which is a shame as I like the models so much). Compare 1 fire dragon at 24pts to a wraithguard at 38pts. You go from T3 to T6, add 2 more wounds, can fall back and shoot without penalty, and can actually punch something in combat (although lacks the attacks to be dangerous). It's hilarious really.

even with the current sadness, I am tempted to give the old mechanized Swordwing a try. banshees and Scorps in Serpents, Dragons in falcons, and Dire Avengers in serpents, plus Prisms, Spinners and CHEs (depending on points for numbers).
I currently have more wraith units, including hemlocks, and won't buy any CHEs until I see the point changes in CA2019.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Right, I should clarify - my brain was 1 shot from each, which results in half of that 3.7. Even with RF they don't come close to killing 2 IS per model.

Assault bolter Intercessors kill 4.4 guardsmen. If they shoot with CM/LT buffs in the tactical doctrine, that's 8.64 dead IS from 5 Intercessors. IF will kill 10.8..

Hell, give 5 Assault IF Intercessors no buffing characters, only tactical doctrine, and they kill 6.94 guardsmen, which is squad wipe with morale.

With the ease and cheapness and sheer spamminess of SM buffs, I really don't think we get anywhere by running numbers in the void anymore.

5 dire Avengers with Hail of Doom and Shredding Fire on twin cat Exarch kills 4.7 Guardsmen a turn, which ain't too shabby (and that was not accounting for any 6s rolled to wound on regular DAs which would bump the number slightly)

edit: And just to respond again to the OP, I really don't think it's a crap book, at least for Craftworlders. I wouldn't go back to playing any of the original Craftworlds at this point except for narrative. The downside is that I don't have a singular Craftworld for my whole force as it makes no sense not to break it up to get the different bonuses. I think fluff wise I plan to get around that by calling them "Houses" instead. So a singular Craftworld, but each "house" has a varied fighting style and is what is used to replace the <Craftworld> entry.

Its not a crap book. It has a lot of utility and interesting traits lending to new builds. Its a breath of fresh air and without comparing it to SM supplaments /BT PA book it would be awesome. It is a crap book compared to SM supplement grade BT book/ SM rules supplements in general though. (what isisn't?)

It's been over a month since release and some very obviously incorrect rules haven't been FAQed yet (particularly looking at Focus Will here). Even if you disagree that the book itself is crap, it's clearly not been given much care by GW.

 Argive wrote:
Its not a crap book. It has a lot of utility and interesting traits lending to new builds. Its a breath of fresh air and without comparing it to SM supplaments /BT PA book it would be awesome. It is a crap book compared to SM supplement grade BT book/ SM rules supplements in general though. (what isisn't?)

When it comes to quality, the measure is always "compared to what?"

I really wish there were some other things addressed in Psychic Awakening, but overall it does what it does. Black Templars are a little better, people can play their army in a slightly better way. Chaos Legions are a little better - while I question whether there's any good mono-Legion builds, there's certainly some decent Supreme Command Detachments to pull from there.

Anyone who was hoping to get NuMarines for their faction will be disappointed. I don't know if it's useful to wish for that, I have a lot more fun figuring out how to tear them down with what we have.

That said, let's hope Grey Knights get more than a superficial treatment.

 Burnage wrote:
It's been over a month since release and some very obviously incorrect rules haven't been FAQed yet (particularly looking at Focus Will here). Even if you disagree that the book itself is crap, it's clearly not been given much care by GW.

Well, I'm surprised here that Phil Kelly who is generally responsible for Aeldari, the lead architect, changed Ynnari that much (from playable to non-playable) and designed Phoenix Rising I as it is including the box set for 180 € with mostly unplayable stuff in there.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Burnage wrote:
It's been over a month since release and some very obviously incorrect rules haven't been FAQed yet (particularly looking at Focus Will here). Even if you disagree that the book itself is crap, it's clearly not been given much care by GW.

Well, I'm surprised here that Phil Kelly who is generally responsible for Aeldari, the lead architect, changed Ynnari that much (from playable to non-playable) and designed Phoenix Rising I as it is including the box set for 180 € with mostly unplayable stuff in there.

Maybe hes just bored of his job and dont care nomore and tells his his assistants: "Yes steve , just deal with it I'm at the company retreat playng golf.. I mean team building for the next two weeks. Get it done"

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Burnage wrote:
It's been over a month since release and some very obviously incorrect rules haven't been FAQed yet (particularly looking at Focus Will here). Even if you disagree that the book itself is crap, it's clearly not been given much care by GW.

Well, I'm surprised here that Phil Kelly who is generally responsible for Aeldari, the lead architect, changed Ynnari that much (from playable to non-playable) and designed Phoenix Rising I as it is including the box set for 180 € with mostly unplayable stuff in there.

Why are you surprised? Phil Kelly actually has exceptionally long record of terrible rules and ruining books, him always buffing Eldar into the stratosphere is somewhat of an outlier (outlier that continues the trend of bad rules, though, if for different reasons). Remember how he thought SW Terminators in 5th edition are worth 64 points for one with TH/SS loadout? Months after 40 pts ones in Codex SM didn't exactly shone and were rarely taken? But then he went and made Thunderwolves immune to ID and hit harder than truck for less points? It really seems he has problems grasping basic math, 90% of things he wrotes tend to be either below mediocre or straight overpowered, no middle ground. There is no other explanation why he buffed 7th edition Eldar into the stratosphere after years of complains they were already far too good in 6th...

 Argive wrote:
Its not a crap book. It has a lot of utility and interesting traits lending to new builds. Its a breath of fresh air and without comparing it to SM supplaments /BT PA book it would be awesome. It is a crap book compared to SM supplement grade BT book/ SM rules supplements in general though. (what isisn't?)

It has nothing dark elfs need. Custom traits are cool, there are a couple I mightbuse for coven but they don't need them. It has nothing for Kabals. Some possible swaps for cults. But 5 out of 8 are completely irrelevant, can't be used. I could see trying to make a new build with a couple of them but you give up Lilith, the best warlord traits and the best relics and the unique strategems. And none of them are more useful than advance and charge, or +1 attack, or +1strenght and only loosing 1 to moral.

I know its not as good as the marine supplements, but its also not as good as Vigilis.

If I played craft world I might not be quits so sour they already got the biker host and wraith host bonuses. And having a bit more customizability on the aspect warriors is cool.

The disappointment is it didn't patch easy holes, no new hq, no new warlord traits. Still can't take the triple patrol detachment (let alone the 6 Patrol) which would be really cool and fluffy.

It was the only attention paid to my faction in 2 years but it had nothing to change the way I play. I won't buy any new models becuase of it (unless they are space marines). I am still playing with the same army I was playing with 2 years ago and will be playing the same list 2 years from now. Thats why it was a crap book.

Headlss wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Its not a crap book. It has a lot of utility and interesting traits lending to new builds. Its a breath of fresh air and without comparing it to SM supplaments /BT PA book it would be awesome. It is a crap book compared to SM supplement grade BT book/ SM rules supplements in general though. (what isisn't?)

It has nothing dark elfs need. Custom traits are cool, there are a couple I mightbuse for coven but they don't need them. It has nothing for Kabals. Some possible swaps for cults. But 5 out of 8 are completely irrelevant, can't be used. I could see trying to make a new build with a couple of them but you give up Lilith, the best warlord traits and the best relics and the unique strategems. And none of them are more useful than advance and charge, or +1 attack, or +1strenght and only loosing 1 to moral.

I know its not as good as the marine supplements, but its also not as good as Vigilis.

If I played craft world I might not be quits so sour they already got the biker host and wraith host bonuses. And having a bit more customizability on the aspect warriors is cool.

The disappointment is it didn't patch easy holes, no new hq, no new warlord traits. Still can't take the triple patrol detachment (let alone the 6 Patrol) which would be really cool and fluffy.

It was the only attention paid to my faction in 2 years but it had nothing to change the way I play. I won't buy any new models becuase of it (unless they are space marines). I am still playing with the same army I was playing with 2 years ago and will be playing the same list 2 years from now. Thats why it was a crap book.

Fair enough I'm guilty of not looking at the DE/Ynnari stuff as it doesn't concern my faction. So I suppose I was only speaking from a CWE perspective - which I stand by. The rest of the book indeed is pretty crap by all accounts.

Even Craftworlds seems like a very mixed bag to me. They got some fun new tools, but I'm still saddened by the Jain/Banshees update and confused at many of the new Exarch abilities.

 Burnage wrote:
Even Craftworlds seems like a very mixed bag to me. They got some fun new tools, but I'm still saddened by the Jain/Banshees update and confused at many of the new Exarch abilities.

Or the lack of relics... or WL traits... or Starts... But hey, a fire dragon can punch someone with burning fists so that's pretty cool right ?? Riight? Riiiiight!? (it is pretty darn cool though even if impractical and largely useless in a game scenario)
Cheers GW.

But at least its addressed an army building issue thanks to expert crafters. So I'm grateful for that at least. Lotsa fun lists floating around in the odd noggin since I got the book.

 grouchoben wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Right, I should clarify - my brain was 1 shot from each, which results in half of that 3.7. Even with RF they don't come close to killing 2 IS per model.

Assault bolter Intercessors kill 4.4 guardsmen. If they shoot with CM/LT buffs in the tactical doctrine, that's 8.64 dead IS from 5 Intercessors. IF will kill 10.8..

Hell, give 5 Assault IF Intercessors no buffing characters, only tactical doctrine, and they kill 6.94 guardsmen, which is squad wipe with morale.

With the ease and cheapness and sheer spamminess of SM buffs, I really don't think we get anywhere by running numbers in the void anymore.

I think your math is wrong on the AB IF?

15 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 4.4
15 * .167 * .666 * .666 = 1.1

6 SH to 5 Intercessors.

Fly over, kill 3.3 with grenades, and shoot off 5.6 for a total of 8.9.

AB IF intercessors kill 1 intercessor.

SH grenades and shooting kill 2 - charge and tripoint (easy with BF and M14) and then they're safe to fallback and shoot next turn unless they're packing a TH (but then that's another SH).

People complain about only one model dropping grenades, but the flip side is only one model is needed to drop grenades at full effect.

 Argive wrote:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

 Argive wrote:


Hawks are an excellent example of an Aspect Unit. Highly specialised unit very good at doing one thing. I don't get the complain. Its the eldar way. Highly specialised tools for the right job. Even though some aspects fail at that due to reasons. E.g Banshees not being killy in melee, scorpions not actually able to infiltrate etc. I don't want units all become generically good at everything..

Yes and a hyper-specialized unit to fight a moderate amount of T3, low save models is such a hilariously quaint concept in a game where Rapid Fire 6 hurricane bolters exist

Having them drop all the grenades on whatever unit they choose all the tie would probably be a bit OP and make them good at killing single entities with MW though. I think they are an awesome unit (not awesome for marine meta, but then again what is?). If they weren't crappy finecast Id build me a squad of 10 for sure.

lol for a full squad that comes out to 3-4 MW average with the new aspect trait. But apparently that would be "a bit OP" in the fight twice, shoot twice, hit on 2s with rerolls meta

Are you the guy who wrote the Ynnari rules and Phoenix Rising?

Didint realise eldar have acess to hurricane bolters...

They pump out a lot of shots to clear t3 screens. Thats what they do so you can direct SC at other stuff. Im not saying they are SM intercessor amazing. They aint. But as a unit they fit their nieche pretty well for their point.

I get what you mean without you being snide.. the meta /sm codex creep is undeniable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Imateria wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I plan to use the Ynnari HQs in Aeldari armies other than Ynnari
such as Harlies with a battalion (troupes in starweavers, outrider detachment (lots of skyweavers) and Yncarne.

Doesn't this stop the detachment be battle forged?
I got my copy of the book at home but I cant remember what the ynari rules are. Always been pure CWE.

The new(ish, they've been out since May) rules let you take the Ynnari characters in any type of Aeldari detachment and not break the detachment bonus requirements (Battleforged is just meeting the min requirements of a detachment and every unit having at least 1 faction keyword in common), so you can slot them into a Craftworlds detachment no problem. Just remember that you can't include them in a detachment with any other named characters.

I guess their psychic powers/strats are locked into ynnari keyword.. need to cast my eye over their rules

The problem with Swooping Hawks is not that they aren't good at their role, they're not bad at anti chaff but for 13ppm they aren't amazing, it's that their role is hyper specialised. If your opponent isn't bringing chaff models then you've spent a lot of points on a unit that doesn't have a role in your game. Compared to that, Guardians and Dire Avengers are specialised for anti infantry, but have a weapon that can make them effective against many different types of infantry instead of one very specific type. They're not the only Aspect shrine that suffers from this.

For Ynnari, relics and strats are locked away if you don't have an Ynnari detachment, but Yvraine and the Yncarne still get to choose their psychic powers from the Revenant Discipline.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:

 Burnage wrote:
Even Craftworlds seems like a very mixed bag to me. They got some fun new tools, but I'm still saddened by the Jain/Banshees update and confused at many of the new Exarch abilities.

Or the lack of relics... or WL traits... or Starts... But hey, a fire dragon can punch someone with burning fists so that's pretty cool right ?? Riight? Riiiiight!? (it is pretty darn cool though even if impractical and largely useless in a game scenario)
Cheers GW.

But at least its addressed an army building issue thanks to expert crafters. So I'm grateful for that at least. Lotsa fun lists floating around in the odd noggin since I got the book.

I'd say the Craftworld traits provided are definitely a step up but thats only because 4 of the 5 traits in the codex are rubbish and all 5 are very 1 dimensional and and only 1 is partly fluffy for the types of armies they are supposed to represent. However, most of the custom traits feel like they were written by someone who doesn't care, I mean why did we need 6 different ways to reroll 1's?

Headlss wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Its not a crap book. It has a lot of utility and interesting traits lending to new builds. Its a breath of fresh air and without comparing it to SM supplaments /BT PA book it would be awesome. It is a crap book compared to SM supplement grade BT book/ SM rules supplements in general though. (what isisn't?)

It has nothing dark elfs need. Custom traits are cool, there are a couple I mightbuse for coven but they don't need them. It has nothing for Kabals. Some possible swaps for cults. But 5 out of 8 are completely irrelevant, can't be used. I could see trying to make a new build with a couple of them but you give up Lilith, the best warlord traits and the best relics and the unique strategems. And none of them are more useful than advance and charge, or +1 attack, or +1strenght and only loosing 1 to moral.

I know its not as good as the marine supplements, but its also not as good as Vigilis.

If I played craft world I might not be quits so sour they already got the biker host and wraith host bonuses. And having a bit more customizability on the aspect warriors is cool.

The disappointment is it didn't patch easy holes, no new hq, no new warlord traits. Still can't take the triple patrol detachment (let alone the 6 Patrol) which would be really cool and fluffy.

It was the only attention paid to my faction in 2 years but it had nothing to change the way I play. I won't buy any new models becuase of it (unless they are space marines). I am still playing with the same army I was playing with 2 years ago and will be playing the same list 2 years from now. Thats why it was a crap book.

truthfully IMHO supplements like PA SHOULD be exactly that, not focused on stuff we need (that should be reserved for codices) but be fun little cool things that can be amusing but ultimately aren't nesscary. the problem is GW more often then not puts total game changers into these books, and we enchourage it by basicly screaming a product sucks if it's not got some OP rules in it. please keep in mind I'm not saying that "ohh Eldar should have gotten their crap" but rather stuff like PA should be more akin to eldar level stuff for everyone.

 Imateria wrote:

I'd say the Craftworld traits provided are definitely a step up but thats only because 4 of the 5 traits in the codex are rubbish and all 5 are very 1 dimensional and and only 1 is partly fluffy for the types of armies they are supposed to represent. However, most of the custom traits feel like they were written by someone who doesn't care, I mean why did we need 6 different ways to reroll 1's?

Traits were fine, but the aspect powers were really terrible

Why did the CHE deserve the strongest powers? It's a mystery I guess.

How hard is it to just write "Each destroyed Dire Avenger model may immediately fire their weapon or attack on a 3+"?

Why did the warp spiders get a weird and situational 6" pile-in ability? That definitely should be a banshee ability...

Why do the fire dragons only get close combat abilities and pistol profile for their weapons?

Man, Dire Fragons were the biggest misses of CWE's PA. They were in desperate need of something and got absolutely nada.

 grouchoben wrote:
Man, Dire Fragons were the biggest misses of CWE's PA. They were in desperate need of something and got absolutely nada.

They are good as they are.

BrianDavion wrote:

Headlss wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Its not a crap book. It has a lot of utility and interesting traits lending to new builds. Its a breath of fresh air and without comparing it to SM supplaments /BT PA book it would be awesome. It is a crap book compared to SM supplement grade BT book/ SM rules supplements in general though. (what isisn't?)

It has nothing dark elfs need. Custom traits are cool, there are a couple I mightbuse for coven but they don't need them. It has nothing for Kabals. Some possible swaps for cults. But 5 out of 8 are completely irrelevant, can't be used. I could see trying to make a new build with a couple of them but you give up Lilith, the best warlord traits and the best relics and the unique strategems. And none of them are more useful than advance and charge, or +1 attack, or +1strenght and only loosing 1 to moral.

I know its not as good as the marine supplements, but its also not as good as Vigilis.

If I played craft world I might not be quits so sour they already got the biker host and wraith host bonuses. And having a bit more customizability on the aspect warriors is cool.

The disappointment is it didn't patch easy holes, no new hq, no new warlord traits. Still can't take the triple patrol detachment (let alone the 6 Patrol) which would be really cool and fluffy.

It was the only attention paid to my faction in 2 years but it had nothing to change the way I play. I won't buy any new models becuase of it (unless they are space marines). I am still playing with the same army I was playing with 2 years ago and will be playing the same list 2 years from now. Thats why it was a crap book.

truthfully IMHO supplements like PA SHOULD be exactly that, not focused on stuff we need (that should be reserved for codices) but be fun little cool things that can be amusing but ultimately aren't nesscary. the problem is GW more often then not puts total game changers into these books, and we enchourage it by basicly screaming a product sucks if it's not got some OP rules in it. please keep in mind I'm not saying that "ohh Eldar should have gotten their crap" but rather stuff like PA should be more akin to eldar level stuff for everyone.

Agreed - the whole 10 pages devoted to yet more standard Marine enhancement in PA2 should have been in the main Codex.