Headlss wrote:
Its an errata. Compared to the two new books the space Marines got I'm a little salty. Chaos got a good book. We got trash.
As a dark elf player I'm quite disappointed. Nothing for us in vigilis. Nothing for us in our own book.

Headlss wrote:
Chaos got a good book.

 Eldarain wrote:
Yet Templars will get the full insane Loyalist bump in the next one?

a_typical_hero wrote:

Headlss wrote:
Its an errata. Compared to the two new books the space Marines got I'm a little salty. Chaos got a good book. We got trash.
As a dark elf player I'm quite disappointed. Nothing for us in vigilis. Nothing for us in our own book.

As other have mentioned it, you should not compare the content of this book to a full Codex release. It is bound to happen that each faction in a small campaign supplement would have fewer rules than a Codex.
Since the rules are not for you, how did you like the lore?

Headlss wrote:
Chaos got a good book.

Chaos players disagree

 Eldarain wrote:
Yet Templars will get the full insane Loyalist bump in the next one?

You seem to have better information on the upcoming PA2 book than the rest of the global community. Mind to share what insane rules Templars can look forward to? Or is your statement just hyperbole and guesswork?

 Eldarain wrote:
Yet Templars will get the full insane Loyalist bump in the next one?

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Yeah pretty much. Love the new models but the book itself feels lazy and underdeveloped. There isn't even any new art. The story is garbage. Can't comment on the rules as I don't play space elves.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Yeah pretty much. Love the new models but the book itself feels lazy and underdeveloped. There isn't even any new art. The story is garbage. Can't comment on the rules as I don't play space elves.

In fairness I think the 40K fluff has been taking a nose dive in quality for some years. PA is just an extension of this trend to shift the new hotness e.g. banshees, etc.

 vipoid wrote:
"Hey, remember how we were supposed to be doing new Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequin and Ynnari codices?"
"Yeah?"
"Well we ran into a bit of a problem."
"Which was . . . ?"
"Well, no one here gives a damn about any of those."
"So you're saying you've got nothing?"
"Well, not nothing exactly. We've got some army-traits and Exarch powers for Eldar, plus a new psychic discipline. We cared even less about Dark Eldar, so we only got as far as doing a few army traits for them. Honestly, we forgot Harlequins even existed so we've got nothing for them right now."
"Okay, no problem. Unlike our glorious Marines, all the Eldar factions are basically interchangeable, right?"
"Right."
"So all we do is cram these rules together and we can just call it an Eldar supplement."
"It still looks a little light."
"No problem, we'll just pad it out with the Ynnari rules."
"Wait, those got printed? They weren't even a first draft. We'd written them on a beermat!"
"Yeah, HQ were a bit sceptical at first. But then i explained that they weren't Marine rules and they gave us the green light."
"Well, I guess this will do for Eldar, Dark Eldar and Ynnari, but what about Harlequins? We don't even have a single new rule for them."
"They can use Ynnari can't they?"
"Will our players really accept this?"
"Trust me - if they buy Collector's Editions of books that are obsolete within a few years, they'll snap this book right up."

Karol wrote:
Did they really have a talk like that?

Karol wrote:
Did they really have a talk like that?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Did they really have a talk like that?

No. Dont believe everything you read on the internet.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
At this stage I am getting the feeling these books are nothing but paliative care for armies which (a) don't wear power armour and (b) don't shout 'For the Emperor!' every five seconds.

Karol wrote:
Did they really have a talk like that?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
At this stage I am getting the feeling these books are nothing but paliative care for armies which (a) don't wear power armour and (b) don't shout 'For the Emperor!' every five seconds.

Considering how "well" the books turned out...

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
At this stage I am getting the feeling these books are nothing but paliative care for armies which (a) don't wear power armour and (b) don't shout 'For the Emperor!' every five seconds.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
At this stage I am getting the feeling these books are nothing but paliative care for armies which (a) don't wear power armour and (b) don't shout 'For the Emperor!' every five seconds.

Next book is about people who wear Power Armour and yet are still seemingly on paliative care, so don't worry.

 Xenomancers wrote:

DE kinda got ignored here but drazar is a welcome buff. Incubi are kind of okay now but a unit like that will never be a competitive choice. DE should have got more love in this book...why they didn't also get the same style custom traits as CWE did is astonishing.

 Xenomancers wrote:
CWE got a giant buff...

Your whole army can and always in cover and ignore cover at once. Every aspect got buffed including the already very competitive aspects like crimson hunters and shinning spears. Min units of DA which are competitive also got buffed.

Warp spiders are also looking pretty sweet with their new abilities. Can come in rerolling all hits OR warp jump in turn 1 for aggressive play. Even swooping hawks look pretty good with a 5++ and ignore cover on their guns.

Something you guys have got to realize is that marines are absolutely abysmal and needed a lot of changes to get them back into the mix. CWE is likely still ahead of them with these changes...

Seriously? A 3++ save for your 3 wound exarch for the price of free? Crimson hunters flying around hitting on 2's rerolling1s? Ignore cover on every weapon plus counting in cover across the board?

Eldar still have a lot of bad units but their best units all got better. Time to stop crying.

DE kinda got ignored here but drazar is a welcome buff. Incubi are kind of okay now but a unit like that will never be a competitive choice. DE should have got more love in this book...why they didn't also get the same style custom traits as CWE did is astonishing.

Tyel wrote:
Its incredibly thin.
From a DE perspective you get five pages, covering 2 datasheets and 3 sets of traits, almost all of which are worse than options you already have outside of niche cases (the as mentioned test of skill flyers for instance). There may be options for pure mix and match - but at the cost of giving up chapter specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems. Labyrinthine Cunning, Vect, Living Muse? That's a lot to give up unless you are having two kabal detachments (and I know many do for flayed skull, but still.)

Its unclear anything that wasn't viable before has been made so by this addition. So it isn't very interesting from a design perspective.

For CWE its a similar story. Okay, its even more unclear why you wouldn't max out your Crimson Hunter Exarchs - but the bulk of the rest is just fluffy sidegrades, and the successor craftworld traits as a whole are marginal. It may be worth getting cover and another ability rather than -1 to hit outside 12 but its not obviously game changing.

Ynnari cost reductions were obvious - but it doesn't change the fact the faction has been cut off at the knees. Funner to play casually - but not influencing the meta.

As for the fluff there is very little here.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Yet Templars will get the full insane Loyalist bump in the next one?

You seem to have better information on the upcoming PA2 book than the rest of the global community. Mind to share what insane rules Templars can look forward to? Or is your statement just hyperbole and guesswork?

 Imateria wrote:
Yeah, we got pretty royally screwed here. GW are currently talking about PA2 giving "Supplement Level" content to the included factions, well I would have loved it if I got that for any of my 3 Eldar factions.

To be clear, the rumours suggest it'll be like Vigilus for the Traitor Legions, so a page or two each for relics, warlord triats and stratagems. This would have been nice for the Craftworlders and Drukhari and would have suggested some effort was being put in. Instead the Craftworlders got 5 ways to re-roll 1's, in an army that already has Guide, Autarchs and myriad unit specific abilities to do the same (and gained more from the new Exarch powers) whilst Kabals got 4 different combat based traits for the shooty faction and a moral buff, in an army that rarely cares much about moral.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Its incredibly thin.
From a DE perspective you get five pages, covering 2 datasheets and 3 sets of traits, almost all of which are worse than options you already have outside of niche cases (the as mentioned test of skill flyers for instance). There may be options for pure mix and match - but at the cost of giving up chapter specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems. Labyrinthine Cunning, Vect, Living Muse? That's a lot to give up unless you are having two kabal detachments (and I know many do for flayed skull, but still.)

Its unclear anything that wasn't viable before has been made so by this addition. So it isn't very interesting from a design perspective.

For CWE its a similar story. Okay, its even more unclear why you wouldn't max out your Crimson Hunter Exarchs - but the bulk of the rest is just fluffy sidegrades, and the successor craftworld traits as a whole are marginal. It may be worth getting cover and another ability rather than -1 to hit outside 12 but its not obviously game changing.

Ynnari cost reductions were obvious - but it doesn't change the fact the faction has been cut off at the knees. Funner to play casually - but not influencing the meta.

As for the fluff there is very little here.

For the sake of those without the book and/or familiarity with DE this is what is available:

PICK TWO
1) -1 ld bubble from DE units (no self-stack)
2) Fall back & Charge; One mortal wound on a 6 when enemies charge any number of units
3) Lose only one model to morale
4) Advance and charge rerolls; unmod 6s to hit in melee auto wounds (not vs VEHICLE/TITAN)
5) +3" Move to FLY models
6) Reroll 1s for FNP; Units w/o FNP gain it
7) Unmod 6s to wound with poison is +1 Damage (not on artefacts)
8) Deepstrike more out of webway portal

-- No specific relics, strats, traits

Versus:

Black Heart
Tactic: +1 to Power from Pain (better than the first half of 4 above); Units w/o FNP gain it
Relic : Reroll 1s to wound w/i 6''
Trait: Gain CP on a 6 for each CP used
Strat: Vect

Flayed Skull
Tactic: +3" Move to FLY Models; FLY Models (or embarkees) ignore cover and reroll 1s to hit w/ RF
Relic: 4++ after shadowfield fails
Trait: +1S +1A when charged or charging
Strat: +1 to Shoot FLY

Poisoned Tongue
Tactic: Reroll 1s to wound for melee and poison
Relic: Meh pistol
Trait: Use WL leadership w/i 12"
Strat: Re-deploy 3 units before start of battle

Obsidian Rose
Tactic: +6" to Assault, RF, and Heavy
Relic: 3+ Save (regular) and -1 to be hit in melee
Trait: +1 Damage for WL
Strat: Feeling models shoot or fight - if they kill something then none flee

To me is seems you'd still be using Black Heart for Ravagers and Vect, but there are other facets that could potentially be exploited for maybe some interesting melee or poison spam.

I don't think any Eldar needed buffs other than Ynnari getting a little more breathing room.

 harlokin wrote:
Close combat with 1A S3 Kabalite Warriors would certainly be "interesting"...

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
Close combat with 1A S3 Kabalite Warriors would certainly be "interesting"...

Incubi...

It's not like 5 attacks that cause two hits that auto wound on unmod 6s to hit care about s3. Losing the 2 damage to wound explode is a salty trade off though.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

My night lords already get #1 on that list. If gw would add #4 (which we had at the end of 7th) I'd be thrilled. Wb players would probably take any ONE of those.

So what are you complaining about?

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Its incredibly thin.
From a DE perspective you get five pages, covering 2 datasheets and 3 sets of traits, almost all of which are worse than options you already have outside of niche cases (the as mentioned test of skill flyers for instance). There may be options for pure mix and match - but at the cost of giving up chapter specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems. Labyrinthine Cunning, Vect, Living Muse? That's a lot to give up unless you are having two kabal detachments (and I know many do for flayed skull, but still.)

Its unclear anything that wasn't viable before has been made so by this addition. So it isn't very interesting from a design perspective.

For CWE its a similar story. Okay, its even more unclear why you wouldn't max out your Crimson Hunter Exarchs - but the bulk of the rest is just fluffy sidegrades, and the successor craftworld traits as a whole are marginal. It may be worth getting cover and another ability rather than -1 to hit outside 12 but its not obviously game changing.

Ynnari cost reductions were obvious - but it doesn't change the fact the faction has been cut off at the knees. Funner to play casually - but not influencing the meta.

As for the fluff there is very little here.

For the sake of those without the book and/or familiarity with DE this is what is available:

PICK TWO
1) -1 ld bubble from DE units (no self-stack)
2) Fall back & Charge; One mortal wound on a 6 when enemies charge any number of units
3) Lose only one model to morale
4) Advance and charge rerolls; unmod 6s to hit in melee auto wounds (not vs VEHICLE/TITAN)
5) +3" Move to FLY models
6) Reroll 1s for FNP; Units w/o FNP gain it
7) Unmod 6s to wound with poison is +1 Damage (not on artefacts)
8) Deepstrike more out of webway portal

-- No specific relics, strats, traits

Versus:

Black Heart
Tactic: +1 to Power from Pain (better than the first half of 4 above); Units w/o FNP gain it
Relic : Reroll 1s to wound w/i 6''
Trait: Gain CP on a 6 for each CP used
Strat: Vect

Flayed Skull
Tactic: +3" Move to FLY Models; FLY Models (or embarkees) ignore cover and reroll 1s to hit w/ RF
Relic: 4++ after shadowfield fails
Trait: +1S +1A when charged or charging
Strat: +1 to Shoot FLY

Poisoned Tongue
Tactic: Reroll 1s to wound for melee and poison
Relic: Meh pistol
Trait: Use WL leadership w/i 12"
Strat: Re-deploy 3 units before start of battle

Obsidian Rose
Tactic: +6" to Assault, RF, and Heavy
Relic: 3+ Save (regular) and -1 to be hit in melee
Trait: +1 Damage for WL
Strat: Feeling models shoot or fight - if they kill something then none flee

To me is seems you'd still be using Black Heart for Ravagers and Vect, but there are other facets that could potentially be exploited for maybe some interesting melee or poison spam.

I don't think any Eldar needed buffs other than Ynnari getting a little more breathing room.

My night lords already get #1 on that list. If gw would add #4 (which we had at the end of 7th) I'd be thrilled. Wb players would probably take any ONE of those.

So what are you complaining about?

 harlokin wrote:



Is that that Incubi that don't get the benefit of Obsessions because they are mercs?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 harlokin wrote:



Is that that Incubi that don't get the benefit of Obsessions because they are mercs?

Ah, that's right. That just makes them not fun.

 harlokin wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 harlokin wrote:



Is that that Incubi that don't get the benefit of Obsessions because they are mercs?

Ah, that's right. That just makes them not fun.

Yup, them being ok now, as opposed to utterly pointless before, makes them less fun than they should be.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 harlokin wrote:



Is that that Incubi that don't get the benefit of Obsessions because they are mercs?

Ah, that's right. That just makes them not fun.

Yup, them being ok now, as opposed to utterly pointless before, makes them less fun than they should be.

I'd love to see a court get played though.

Archon with agoniser and a bunch of sslyth with d2 poison or Urghuls with exploding 6s.

I love the sslyth models so much.

 vipoid wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Yeah, we got pretty royally screwed here. GW are currently talking about PA2 giving "Supplement Level" content to the included factions, well I would have loved it if I got that for any of my 3 Eldar factions.

To be clear, the rumours suggest it'll be like Vigilus for the Traitor Legions, so a page or two each for relics, warlord triats and stratagems. This would have been nice for the Craftworlders and Drukhari and would have suggested some effort was being put in. Instead the Craftworlders got 5 ways to re-roll 1's, in an army that already has Guide, Autarchs and myriad unit specific abilities to do the same (and gained more from the new Exarch powers) whilst Kabals got 4 different combat based traits for the shooty faction and a moral buff, in an army that rarely cares much about moral.

Basically this.

Would it really have killed them to dream up some new Relics and Warlord Traits for Eldar and DE? Hell, I don't know about Eldar but I'm pretty sure there's still a pile of Relics in older DE books that they could just port into 8th.

But apparently even that would have too much effort.

Also, why nerf Word of the Phoenix of all things? I think I missed the part where it was dominating tournaments. Or even being used at all outside of fluff lists. Man, so glad the new GW is totally different from the old GW. They don't decide which units to nerf by using a dartboard anymore. No, sir! Now it's snooker all the way.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Its incredibly thin.
From a DE perspective you get five pages, covering 2 datasheets and 3 sets of traits, almost all of which are worse than options you already have outside of niche cases (the as mentioned test of skill flyers for instance). There may be options for pure mix and match - but at the cost of giving up chapter specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems. Labyrinthine Cunning, Vect, Living Muse? That's a lot to give up unless you are having two kabal detachments (and I know many do for flayed skull, but still.)

Its unclear anything that wasn't viable before has been made so by this addition. So it isn't very interesting from a design perspective.

For CWE its a similar story. Okay, its even more unclear why you wouldn't max out your Crimson Hunter Exarchs - but the bulk of the rest is just fluffy sidegrades, and the successor craftworld traits as a whole are marginal. It may be worth getting cover and another ability rather than -1 to hit outside 12 but its not obviously game changing.

Ynnari cost reductions were obvious - but it doesn't change the fact the faction has been cut off at the knees. Funner to play casually - but not influencing the meta.

As for the fluff there is very little here.

For the sake of those without the book and/or familiarity with DE this is what is available:

PICK TWO
1) -1 ld bubble from DE units (no self-stack)
2) Fall back & Charge; One mortal wound on a 6 when enemies charge any number of units
3) Lose only one model to morale
4) Advance and charge rerolls; unmod 6s to hit in melee auto wounds (not vs VEHICLE/TITAN)
5) +3" Move to FLY models
6) Reroll 1s for FNP; Units w/o FNP gain it
7) Unmod 6s to wound with poison is +1 Damage (not on artefacts)
8) Deepstrike more out of webway portal

-- No specific relics, strats, traits

Versus:

Black Heart
Tactic: +1 to Power from Pain (better than the first half of 4 above); Units w/o FNP gain it
Relic : Reroll 1s to wound w/i 6''
Trait: Gain CP on a 6 for each CP used
Strat: Vect

Flayed Skull
Tactic: +3" Move to FLY Models; FLY Models (or embarkees) ignore cover and reroll 1s to hit w/ RF
Relic: 4++ after shadowfield fails
Trait: +1S +1A when charged or charging
Strat: +1 to Shoot FLY

Poisoned Tongue
Tactic: Reroll 1s to wound for melee and poison
Relic: Meh pistol
Trait: Use WL leadership w/i 12"
Strat: Re-deploy 3 units before start of battle

Obsidian Rose
Tactic: +6" to Assault, RF, and Heavy
Relic: 3+ Save (regular) and -1 to be hit in melee
Trait: +1 Damage for WL
Strat: Feeling models shoot or fight - if they kill something then none flee

To me is seems you'd still be using Black Heart for Ravagers and Vect, but there are other facets that could potentially be exploited for maybe some interesting melee or poison spam.

I don't think any Eldar needed buffs other than Ynnari getting a little more breathing room.

My night lords already get #1 on that list. If gw would add #4 (which we had at the end of 7th) I'd be thrilled. Wb players would probably take any ONE of those.

So what are you complaining about?

PenitentJake wrote:
Lots of people judge PA like it's an Eldar Supplement. It isn't. It was never advertised as such.

It is a 6-10 book story release affecting 24 factions, exerting its impact and being impacted by other releases and WD content, peppered with a random smattering of models from many factions spread across the story arc.

You judge, based on a single chapter, something that we will be playing through at least until spring and possibly beyond. It's true that the next two books look fairly marine centric, but I want to see what Emperor's Children get. I don't play Marines, but I do play Slaanesh, and if EC rules are good enough, I might increase the marine portion of the army.

When the Baal expansion drops in December, I might pick up Mephiston; I have the Blood Angels from Space Hulk to form an allied detachment. Not sure yet.

But please keep in mind what PA is as we go forward. It's not about any one faction- it's about all of them, and it's just getting started.

 Imateria wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Its incredibly thin.
From a DE perspective you get five pages, covering 2 datasheets and 3 sets of traits, almost all of which are worse than options you already have outside of niche cases (the as mentioned test of skill flyers for instance). There may be options for pure mix and match - but at the cost of giving up chapter specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems. Labyrinthine Cunning, Vect, Living Muse? That's a lot to give up unless you are having two kabal detachments (and I know many do for flayed skull, but still.)

Its unclear anything that wasn't viable before has been made so by this addition. So it isn't very interesting from a design perspective.

For CWE its a similar story. Okay, its even more unclear why you wouldn't max out your Crimson Hunter Exarchs - but the bulk of the rest is just fluffy sidegrades, and the successor craftworld traits as a whole are marginal. It may be worth getting cover and another ability rather than -1 to hit outside 12 but its not obviously game changing.

Ynnari cost reductions were obvious - but it doesn't change the fact the faction has been cut off at the knees. Funner to play casually - but not influencing the meta.

As for the fluff there is very little here.

For the sake of those without the book and/or familiarity with DE this is what is available:

PICK TWO
1) -1 ld bubble from DE units (no self-stack)
2) Fall back & Charge; One mortal wound on a 6 when enemies charge any number of units
3) Lose only one model to morale
4) Advance and charge rerolls; unmod 6s to hit in melee auto wounds (not vs VEHICLE/TITAN)
5) +3" Move to FLY models
6) Reroll 1s for FNP; Units w/o FNP gain it
7) Unmod 6s to wound with poison is +1 Damage (not on artefacts)
8) Deepstrike more out of webway portal

-- No specific relics, strats, traits

Versus:

Black Heart
Tactic: +1 to Power from Pain (better than the first half of 4 above); Units w/o FNP gain it
Relic : Reroll 1s to wound w/i 6''
Trait: Gain CP on a 6 for each CP used
Strat: Vect

Flayed Skull
Tactic: +3" Move to FLY Models; FLY Models (or embarkees) ignore cover and reroll 1s to hit w/ RF
Relic: 4++ after shadowfield fails
Trait: +1S +1A when charged or charging
Strat: +1 to Shoot FLY

Poisoned Tongue
Tactic: Reroll 1s to wound for melee and poison
Relic: Meh pistol
Trait: Use WL leadership w/i 12"
Strat: Re-deploy 3 units before start of battle

Obsidian Rose
Tactic: +6" to Assault, RF, and Heavy
Relic: 3+ Save (regular) and -1 to be hit in melee
Trait: +1 Damage for WL
Strat: Feeling models shoot or fight - if they kill something then none flee

To me is seems you'd still be using Black Heart for Ravagers and Vect, but there are other facets that could potentially be exploited for maybe some interesting melee or poison spam.

I don't think any Eldar needed buffs other than Ynnari getting a little more breathing room.

My night lords already get #1 on that list. If gw would add #4 (which we had at the end of 7th) I'd be thrilled. Wb players would probably take any ONE of those.

So what are you complaining about?

That they are rubbish and don't work very well. I mean, #1 is already the Dark Creed Coven trait and people have tried it, it doesn't have much effect, not to mention the entire army gets that from turn 5 anyway thanks to Power from Pain. Daedalus description of #4 is a little disingenuous, it's not straight up reroll Advance and Charge, it's to do it from turn 1 because we get that through our Power from Pain from turn 2 onwards and this army is rarely in a position to charge turn 1 anyway. The real problem is that these are Kabal triats, and the subfaction has no dedicated combat units that would want to get that close to your opponent except for Incubi and Mandrakes, neither of which get a trait.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Hmm, well the auto wounds work for relics. So the +2a huskblade, +1a trait that heals when he kills and you got 8 power fist-ish attacks that auto wounds on 6s.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The point is that ALL night lords get is #1 which, yes, doesn't do much and de can take that or any other trait PLUS another trait from the list.

Also last I checked no one but eldar players thought they needed more useful traits, strategems, etc. Eldar are pretty good and have been for a few editions. If they got the full sm treatment they would be broken.

Maybe eldar didn't get ad much help because they didn't need as much help.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

I'd love to see a court get played though.

Archon with agoniser and a bunch of sslyth with d2 poison or Urghuls with exploding 6s.

I love the sslyth models so much.

 Imateria wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The point is that ALL night lords get is #1 which, yes, doesn't do much and de can take that or any other trait PLUS another trait from the list.

Also last I checked no one but eldar players thought they needed more useful traits, strategems, etc. Eldar are pretty good and have been for a few editions. If they got the full sm treatment they would be broken.

Maybe eldar didn't get ad much help because they didn't need as much help.

Nobodies disputing that the Chaos traits aren't bad, they are, but thats not an excuse to through worthless trash at other armies. Also, you must be new to the internet, because I've seen Chaos players complain, rightfully, about how bad their traits are and how much they need a ground up reworking for nearly a couple years now. Tyranids are not that much better off as Kraken are the only trait thats worth running at this point.

And as usual people are wrong about Craftworlds, at the moment Crimson Hunter Exarchs are the only really good unit they have left, everything else that was good has been hit with the nerf bat pretty hard, and the codex has a lot of units that were outright trash to start with combined with a bunch of traits that aren't even fluffy (how is a trait that makes giant blobs of Guardians nearly fearless fluffy for Iyanden, the Craftworld where 90% of it's population was annihilated and relys on the reanimated dead?).

Tyel wrote:
I feel going "my word bearers may as well not have a trait, what are you guys complaining about" while the SM books are right there - right there - is just weird and disingenuous.

Tyel wrote:
Sslyth are just overcosted for what they do and its not obvious why you want them to defend a cheap throw-away character anyway.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I love some of the responses here. They're pure gold.

If PA books 2 and 3 give other factions actual supplement level things, Eldar players of every type are well within their rights to be cheesed off. That is a perfectly normal and rational response to such treatment.

On the other hand, other factions will also expect model releases ala Phoenix Rising and those players are entitled to be annoyed if that doesn't happen.

Players want consistency. When customers feel that their business is not wanted by GW (because of a lack of releases, poor rules for an extended period of time or a lackluster book release for their chosen faction etc) they eventually stop playing and then stop buying. This isn't healthy for the game. Dakka is a microcosm of the hobby community and even here we see a reduction in some voices. Those voices have, it is possible (perhaps even likely), left the hobby.

Tyel wrote:
Disagree on Lhameans. Okay they only have 2 attacks. But they hit on 3s (2s) rerolling if next to an Archon. You then get Mortal wounds on 4s plus regular wounds on 2s. So you are likely getting some mortals and forcing saves. For 15 points I'm not sure what more you can ask for.

Tyel wrote:

I think they could really do with some sort of "all charge together rule" - i.e. if your Archon makes it into combat, the whole court does so.

Tyel wrote:
Although really we are kidding ourselves that Archons want to rush into combat anyway.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

But the model....

27 is pretty good for what it is especially as a bodyguard. It just pales a bit internally and from rule of 3 and janky charging dynamic.

 Smirrors wrote:
I have never bought any supplements but I have enjoyed all the rules updates and buffs. Things are easy enough to find.

Supplements (outside of space marine chapter supplements) were never about pure rules so people were always going to be disappointed if they expected too much.

Looks like PA hasn't changed anything.

I do think PA2 might benefit their respective armies better but it was never meant to be an equal buff to each army.

 Argive wrote:
And here I am considering dropping £20 on the PR book for CWE rules..

ThatMG wrote:
It is kinda offensive and false advertising to say supplement level for all those factions, as that would mean PA2 needs updated rules for all the factions, multiple stratagems per faction, datasheets etc etc. If it was like that it be the most cost effective book in a long time...if you know care about those factions.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
And here I am considering dropping £20 on the PR book for CWE rules..

Yea, unfortunately this is essentially a codex update for CWE. Not a full one, mind you, but pretty mandatory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ThatMG wrote:
It is kinda offensive and false advertising to say supplement level for all those factions, as that would mean PA2 needs updated rules for all the factions, multiple stratagems per faction, datasheets etc etc. If it was like that it be the most cost effective book in a long time...if you know care about those factions.

One of GW's primary vectors to kick models out these days is driving the story line. It isn't exactly fluff heavy though.

18 pages of direct fluff
8 for missions
14 for CWE
11 for DE
15 for Ynnari

The next book has two factions instead of 3 with one of them being Sisters whose codex isn't out yet so I can't imagine we'd see a ton for them. It should be interesting to see regardless.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I dont really agree.

The forum complains about perceived power creep, but then complain when their own faction doesn't get the perceived creep?

People can be upset about it, but it borders on a selfish motivation if your army is strong already.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
9

 Imateria wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Its incredibly thin.
From a DE perspective you get five pages, covering 2 datasheets and 3 sets of traits, almost all of which are worse than options you already have outside of niche cases (the as mentioned test of skill flyers for instance). There may be options for pure mix and match - but at the cost of giving up chapter specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems. Labyrinthine Cunning, Vect, Living Muse? That's a lot to give up unless you are having two kabal detachments (and I know many do for flayed skull, but still.)

Its unclear anything that wasn't viable before has been made so by this addition. So it isn't very interesting from a design perspective.

For CWE its a similar story. Okay, its even more unclear why you wouldn't max out your Crimson Hunter Exarchs - but the bulk of the rest is just fluffy sidegrades, and the successor craftworld traits as a whole are marginal. It may be worth getting cover and another ability rather than -1 to hit outside 12 but its not obviously game changing.

Ynnari cost reductions were obvious - but it doesn't change the fact the faction has been cut off at the knees. Funner to play casually - but not influencing the meta.

As for the fluff there is very little here.

For the sake of those without the book and/or familiarity with DE this is what is available:

PICK TWO
1) -1 ld bubble from DE units (no self-stack)
2) Fall back & Charge; One mortal wound on a 6 when enemies charge any number of units
3) Lose only one model to morale
4) Advance and charge rerolls; unmod 6s to hit in melee auto wounds (not vs VEHICLE/TITAN)
5) +3" Move to FLY models
6) Reroll 1s for FNP; Units w/o FNP gain it
7) Unmod 6s to wound with poison is +1 Damage (not on artefacts)
8) Deepstrike more out of webway portal

-- No specific relics, strats, traits

Versus:

Black Heart
Tactic: +1 to Power from Pain (better than the first half of 4 above); Units w/o FNP gain it
Relic : Reroll 1s to wound w/i 6''
Trait: Gain CP on a 6 for each CP used
Strat: Vect

Flayed Skull
Tactic: +3" Move to FLY Models; FLY Models (or embarkees) ignore cover and reroll 1s to hit w/ RF
Relic: 4++ after shadowfield fails
Trait: +1S +1A when charged or charging
Strat: +1 to Shoot FLY

Poisoned Tongue
Tactic: Reroll 1s to wound for melee and poison
Relic: Meh pistol
Trait: Use WL leadership w/i 12"
Strat: Re-deploy 3 units before start of battle

Obsidian Rose
Tactic: +6" to Assault, RF, and Heavy
Relic: 3+ Save (regular) and -1 to be hit in melee
Trait: +1 Damage for WL
Strat: Feeling models shoot or fight - if they kill something then none flee

To me is seems you'd still be using Black Heart for Ravagers and Vect, but there are other facets that could potentially be exploited for maybe some interesting melee or poison spam.

I don't think any Eldar needed buffs other than Ynnari getting a little more breathing room.

My night lords already get #1 on that list. If gw would add #4 (which we had at the end of 7th) I'd be thrilled. Wb players would probably take any ONE of those.

So what are you complaining about?

Naa, PA is missed chance to make units interesting and back on the table.
Most of abilities look like are typed by person who never played the game and are not well designed to even the most casual player to take them.
They did very little for most unused models, so they will continue to stay in the shelfs.
Incubi and banshees received new models. Incubi stayed in their crazy 16 pts price tag and banshees received generally nothing for players to start using them regularly.
Squad of fire dragons is expensive like squad of Assault centurions, the second have a lot more firepower, they are tough and can fight in melee. It`s just mind boggling that they did not receive any damage increase and got melee buffs for the single 2 attack exarch.
CWE have army of specialist, who can`t do their specialty good.
Banshees can`t kill MEQs, they are supposed to cut through. Banshees are supposed to kill marines and Incubi like butter.
Scorpions can`t kill hordes, since you lack a way to make reliable charges from deepstrike, without support and even if you manage to do it they have to little attacks. Full squad of 10 scorpions without any buffs kills 4-5 boyz, maybe 2-3 more if you are lucky and roll those 6 for the mandiblasters.
Fire dragons can`t kill armor. Low range, low volume of fire, need support to be good.
The idea of having specialist units, is that you don`t need to babysit them with other units, for them to do their job.

Reply by: Tyranid Horde - click to view full reply 

20609

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 09:26:46

Post by: Tyranid Horde

 Argive wrote:
And here I am considering dropping £20 on the PR book for CWE rules..

Yeah, the £20 hurts but you do need the rules to play the game. Hopefully you get some use out of the rules, I think I'm using a grand total of 5 of the new rules from the book.

GW could have taken the opportunity to fix some of the internal balance issues in the codex but instead tacked on some rules to units that don't have a place because their rules or stats aren't good enough to be playable.

Reply by: wuestenfux - click to view full reply 

4139

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 10:39:22

Post by: wuestenfux

Well, the main point about the new Ynnari is the changing of the special rule ''Strength from Death''.
The former was powerful but the new one is absolutely crap in a faction that has only a few strong cc units such as Taloi and Grotesques which cannot benefit from SfD at all. I am lost about that much synergy.

Reply by: Marin - click to view full reply 

120890

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 10:41:57

Post by: Marin

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, the main point about the new Ynnari is the changing of the special rule ''Strength from Death''.
The former was powerful but the new one is absolutely crap in a faction that has only a few strong cc units such as Taloi and Grotesques which cannot benefit from SfD at all. I am lost about that much synergy.

Average ability that need units to die to be active, if it was passive atleast you could play the game.

Reply by: Not Online!!! - click to view full reply 

119289

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 10:42:32

Post by: Not Online!!!

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, the main point about the new Ynnari is the changing of the special rule ''Strength from Death''.
The former was powerful but the new one is absolutely crap in a faction that has only a few strong cc units such as Taloi and Grotesques which cannot benefit from SfD at all. I am lost about that much synergy.

Some cynics would attest that GW does not playtest propperly, some other attest that their release schedule makes playtesting virtually useless.
And some others question if they even have playtesting.

Reply by: The Newman - click to view full reply 

120625

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 11:40:20

Post by: The Newman

Their own ad blurb called out "Codex Supplement-tier updates for these armies" with a bunch of Chaos icons. I take it the new Chaos rules fell short of that by a lot?

Reply by: the_scotsman - click to view full reply 

35310

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 12:28:21

Post by: the_scotsman

Gadzilla666 wrote:
9

 Imateria wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Its incredibly thin.
From a DE perspective you get five pages, covering 2 datasheets and 3 sets of traits, almost all of which are worse than options you already have outside of niche cases (the as mentioned test of skill flyers for instance). There may be options for pure mix and match - but at the cost of giving up chapter specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems. Labyrinthine Cunning, Vect, Living Muse? That's a lot to give up unless you are having two kabal detachments (and I know many do for flayed skull, but still.)

Its unclear anything that wasn't viable before has been made so by this addition. So it isn't very interesting from a design perspective.

For CWE its a similar story. Okay, its even more unclear why you wouldn't max out your Crimson Hunter Exarchs - but the bulk of the rest is just fluffy sidegrades, and the successor craftworld traits as a whole are marginal. It may be worth getting cover and another ability rather than -1 to hit outside 12 but its not obviously game changing.

Ynnari cost reductions were obvious - but it doesn't change the fact the faction has been cut off at the knees. Funner to play casually - but not influencing the meta.

As for the fluff there is very little here.

For the sake of those without the book and/or familiarity with DE this is what is available:

PICK TWO
1) -1 ld bubble from DE units (no self-stack)
2) Fall back & Charge; One mortal wound on a 6 when enemies charge any number of units
3) Lose only one model to morale
4) Advance and charge rerolls; unmod 6s to hit in melee auto wounds (not vs VEHICLE/TITAN)
5) +3" Move to FLY models
6) Reroll 1s for FNP; Units w/o FNP gain it
7) Unmod 6s to wound with poison is +1 Damage (not on artefacts)
8) Deepstrike more out of webway portal

-- No specific relics, strats, traits

Versus:

Black Heart
Tactic: +1 to Power from Pain (better than the first half of 4 above); Units w/o FNP gain it
Relic : Reroll 1s to wound w/i 6''
Trait: Gain CP on a 6 for each CP used
Strat: Vect

Flayed Skull
Tactic: +3" Move to FLY Models; FLY Models (or embarkees) ignore cover and reroll 1s to hit w/ RF
Relic: 4++ after shadowfield fails
Trait: +1S +1A when charged or charging
Strat: +1 to Shoot FLY

Poisoned Tongue
Tactic: Reroll 1s to wound for melee and poison
Relic: Meh pistol
Trait: Use WL leadership w/i 12"
Strat: Re-deploy 3 units before start of battle

Obsidian Rose
Tactic: +6" to Assault, RF, and Heavy
Relic: 3+ Save (regular) and -1 to be hit in melee
Trait: +1 Damage for WL
Strat: Feeling models shoot or fight - if they kill something then none flee

To me is seems you'd still be using Black Heart for Ravagers and Vect, but there are other facets that could potentially be exploited for maybe some interesting melee or poison spam.

I don't think any Eldar needed buffs other than Ynnari getting a little more breathing room.

My night lords already get #1 on that list. If gw would add #4 (which we had at the end of 7th) I'd be thrilled. Wb players would probably take any ONE of those.

So what are you complaining about?

That they are rubbish and don't work very well. I mean, #1 is already the Dark Creed Coven trait and people have tried it, it doesn't have much effect, not to mention the entire army gets that from turn 5 anyway thanks to Power from Pain. Daedalus description of #4 is a little disingenuous, it's not straight up reroll Advance and Charge, it's to do it from turn 1 because we get that through our Power from Pain from turn 2 onwards and this army is rarely in a position to charge turn 1 anyway. The real problem is that these are Kabal triats, and the subfaction has no dedicated combat units that would want to get that close to your opponent except for Incubi and Mandrakes, neither of which get a trait.

The point is that ALL night lords get is #1 which, yes, doesn't do much and de can take that or any other trait PLUS another trait from the list.

Also last I checked no one but eldar players thought they needed more useful traits, strategems, etc. Eldar are pretty good and have been for a few editions. If they got the full sm treatment they would be broken.

Maybe eldar didn't get ad much help because they didn't need as much help.

Yes, night lords trait is bad (I know, my Coven gets exactly, exactly the same trait, with no additional rules at all) but that is not the NL trait. It doesn't stack at all, it's only -1.

Realistically, for DE, PA offers 3 things.

1) better rules for drazar, incubi, and the ability to take the passable Ynnari hqs as HQs, which is nice because you literally cannot take two battalions of the same DE splinter faction without taking one of those. We get 1 HQ choice. Yippee.

2) One new viable chapter trait for Wych Cults that competes with Cursed Blade and Red Grief. Test of Skill+Slashing Impact legitimately does help with many of the problems wyches have in this meta, namely the fact that they a dedicated melee unit get their gak absolutely smashed by a space marine unit who gets full effectiveness out to 30" range.

3) one new viable chapter trait for Coven in the form of the two +1 to wound shooting traits. It is definitely worth giving up the prophets of flesh trait with the right army composition, namely a Venomspam and Talos build.

There are a couple other combos a casual player can build around, but if you play competitively (and now that intercessors and repulsors are a tournament tier list that is most games I play at this point, because every marine player has just kind of accumulated those over the course of the edition. (

Reply by: Marin - click to view full reply 

120890

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 13:25:39

Post by: Marin

the_scotsman wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
9

 Imateria wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Its incredibly thin.
From a DE perspective you get five pages, covering 2 datasheets and 3 sets of traits, almost all of which are worse than options you already have outside of niche cases (the as mentioned test of skill flyers for instance). There may be options for pure mix and match - but at the cost of giving up chapter specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems. Labyrinthine Cunning, Vect, Living Muse? That's a lot to give up unless you are having two kabal detachments (and I know many do for flayed skull, but still.)

Its unclear anything that wasn't viable before has been made so by this addition. So it isn't very interesting from a design perspective.

For CWE its a similar story. Okay, its even more unclear why you wouldn't max out your Crimson Hunter Exarchs - but the bulk of the rest is just fluffy sidegrades, and the successor craftworld traits as a whole are marginal. It may be worth getting cover and another ability rather than -1 to hit outside 12 but its not obviously game changing.

Ynnari cost reductions were obvious - but it doesn't change the fact the faction has been cut off at the knees. Funner to play casually - but not influencing the meta.

As for the fluff there is very little here.

For the sake of those without the book and/or familiarity with DE this is what is available:

PICK TWO
1) -1 ld bubble from DE units (no self-stack)
2) Fall back & Charge; One mortal wound on a 6 when enemies charge any number of units
3) Lose only one model to morale
4) Advance and charge rerolls; unmod 6s to hit in melee auto wounds (not vs VEHICLE/TITAN)
5) +3" Move to FLY models
6) Reroll 1s for FNP; Units w/o FNP gain it
7) Unmod 6s to wound with poison is +1 Damage (not on artefacts)
8) Deepstrike more out of webway portal

-- No specific relics, strats, traits

Versus:

Black Heart
Tactic: +1 to Power from Pain (better than the first half of 4 above); Units w/o FNP gain it
Relic : Reroll 1s to wound w/i 6''
Trait: Gain CP on a 6 for each CP used
Strat: Vect

Flayed Skull
Tactic: +3" Move to FLY Models; FLY Models (or embarkees) ignore cover and reroll 1s to hit w/ RF
Relic: 4++ after shadowfield fails
Trait: +1S +1A when charged or charging
Strat: +1 to Shoot FLY

Poisoned Tongue
Tactic: Reroll 1s to wound for melee and poison
Relic: Meh pistol
Trait: Use WL leadership w/i 12"
Strat: Re-deploy 3 units before start of battle

Obsidian Rose
Tactic: +6" to Assault, RF, and Heavy
Relic: 3+ Save (regular) and -1 to be hit in melee
Trait: +1 Damage for WL
Strat: Feeling models shoot or fight - if they kill something then none flee

To me is seems you'd still be using Black Heart for Ravagers and Vect, but there are other facets that could potentially be exploited for maybe some interesting melee or poison spam.

I don't think any Eldar needed buffs other than Ynnari getting a little more breathing room.

My night lords already get #1 on that list. If gw would add #4 (which we had at the end of 7th) I'd be thrilled. Wb players would probably take any ONE of those.

So what are you complaining about?

That they are rubbish and don't work very well. I mean, #1 is already the Dark Creed Coven trait and people have tried it, it doesn't have much effect, not to mention the entire army gets that from turn 5 anyway thanks to Power from Pain. Daedalus description of #4 is a little disingenuous, it's not straight up reroll Advance and Charge, it's to do it from turn 1 because we get that through our Power from Pain from turn 2 onwards and this army is rarely in a position to charge turn 1 anyway. The real problem is that these are Kabal triats, and the subfaction has no dedicated combat units that would want to get that close to your opponent except for Incubi and Mandrakes, neither of which get a trait.

The point is that ALL night lords get is #1 which, yes, doesn't do much and de can take that or any other trait PLUS another trait from the list.

Also last I checked no one but eldar players thought they needed more useful traits, strategems, etc. Eldar are pretty good and have been for a few editions. If they got the full sm treatment they would be broken.

Maybe eldar didn't get ad much help because they didn't need as much help.

Yes, night lords trait is bad (I know, my Coven gets exactly, exactly the same trait, with no additional rules at all) but that is not the NL trait. It doesn't stack at all, it's only -1.

Realistically, for DE, PA offers 3 things.

1) better rules for drazar, incubi, and the ability to take the passable Ynnari hqs as HQs, which is nice because you literally cannot take two battalions of the same DE splinter faction without taking one of those. We get 1 HQ choice. Yippee.

2) One new viable chapter trait for Wych Cults that competes with Cursed Blade and Red Grief. Test of Skill+Slashing Impact legitimately does help with many of the problems wyches have in this meta, namely the fact that they a dedicated melee unit get their gak absolutely smashed by a space marine unit who gets full effectiveness out to 30" range.

3) one new viable chapter trait for Coven in the form of the two +1 to wound shooting traits. It is definitely worth giving up the prophets of flesh trait with the right army composition, namely a Venomspam and Talos build.

There are a couple other combos a casual player can build around, but if you play competitively (and now that intercessors and repulsors are a tournament tier list that is most games I play at this point, because every marine player has just kind of accumulated those over the course of the edition. (

Wytch traits don`t look bad on paper:
Test of skills look good for bikes - wounding T7 vehicles on 4 and T8 on 5;
The art of pain - extra round power of pain.
For wytch lovers - the 3++ in close combat also look interesting

Maybe you have to test it before writting it out. Maybe it`s not top notch competitive, but i was going to try it if i was DE player.

Reply by: VladimirHerzog - click to view full reply 

122989

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 14:09:07

Post by: VladimirHerzog

Marin wrote:


Wytch traits don`t look bad on paper:
Test of skills look good for bikes - wounding T7 vehicles on 4 and T8 on 5;
The art of pain - extra round power of pain.
For wytch lovers - the 3++ in close combat also look interesting

Maybe you have to test it before writting it out. Maybe it`s not top notch competitive, but i was going to try it if i was DE player.

people have been trying the new obsessions and discussing them on various forums.

Test of skill is one of the best thing an airwing could get, it makes your disintegrator cannons wound vehicles on 4's instead of 5's.
art of pain is pretty underwhelming, the power from pain bonuses aren't really worth building around, its not because that part of the obsession that black heart is played.
3++ in combat that doesn't help you connect the charge, so your wyches will just get boltered from 24"+ away.

still, custom cults at least do things that help a melee-centric subfaction, not like the kabal ones that boost melee on 100% shooty units.

Reply by: Xenomancers - click to view full reply 

91128

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 14:56:10

Post by: Xenomancers

Does anyone actually think CWE got screwed here? Alaitoc -2 to hit spam isn't protecting you with marines rerolling all failed. That will not cut it. They were in need of a new power trait. Ignore cover / always counts in cover is insanely good.

Reply by: Tyranid Horde - click to view full reply 

20609

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 15:18:07

Post by: Tyranid Horde

 Xenomancers wrote:
Does anyone actually think CWE got screwed here? Alaitoc -2 to hit spam isn't protecting you with marines rerolling all failed. That will not cut it. They were in need of a new power trait. Ignore cover / always counts in cover is insanely good.

They didn't get screwed and I don't think anyone has said that, it's just that the supplement didn't really help them outside of making CHEs even better and MSU spam could be a thing should anyone want to try it.

Ignore cover is great until you face a smart opponent and they play around the fact they don't have cover. Then you have half of your army bonus being a relatively moot point.

You also have to consider that CWE got some great new banshee models and the first Aspect models in 10+ years but the rules are extremely lacking and they're very expensive to actually make work.

Reply by: Argive - click to view full reply 

92012

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 15:20:54

Post by: Argive

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 Argive wrote:
And here I am considering dropping £20 on the PR book for CWE rules..

Yeah, the £20 hurts but you do need the rules to play the game. Hopefully you get some use out of the rules, I think I'm using a grand total of 5 of the new rules from the book.

GW could have taken the opportunity to fix some of the internal balance issues in the codex but instead tacked on some rules to units that don't have a place because their rules or stats aren't good enough to be playable.

Not disputing that opportunities have been missed lol

Reply by: Gene St. Ealer - click to view full reply 

103063

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 15:24:00

Post by: Gene St. Ealer

I'm gonna say CWE got screwed. It's a "rich get richer" type book. Part of the reason everybody loves the later edition 8th codices is that the internal balance is better than the earlier ones -- even the relatively weaker units and traits aren't garbage and can be played in friendly games. Here, CWE didn't get that fix. For all the complaints about the CQC-focused Kabal traits, GW did the exact same thing with most of the exarch powers. So much false choice, IMO much more on the CWE side than on the DE side (and that's how it's been all edition).

So yeah -- if this is my "codex update", and I agree with Daedalus that it basically is (no way does GW give a *gasp* Xenos army more than one significant rules update in 18 months), then I'm pretty disappointed, because I don't think I'm on the level of Codex: Orks or Codex: Dark Eldar, let alone the Space Marines books/supplements.

Reply by: the_scotsman - click to view full reply 

35310

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 15:29:53

Post by: the_scotsman

Marin wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
9

 Imateria wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Its incredibly thin.
From a DE perspective you get five pages, covering 2 datasheets and 3 sets of traits, almost all of which are worse than options you already have outside of niche cases (the as mentioned test of skill flyers for instance). There may be options for pure mix and match - but at the cost of giving up chapter specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems. Labyrinthine Cunning, Vect, Living Muse? That's a lot to give up unless you are having two kabal detachments (and I know many do for flayed skull, but still.)

Its unclear anything that wasn't viable before has been made so by this addition. So it isn't very interesting from a design perspective.

For CWE its a similar story. Okay, its even more unclear why you wouldn't max out your Crimson Hunter Exarchs - but the bulk of the rest is just fluffy sidegrades, and the successor craftworld traits as a whole are marginal. It may be worth getting cover and another ability rather than -1 to hit outside 12 but its not obviously game changing.

Ynnari cost reductions were obvious - but it doesn't change the fact the faction has been cut off at the knees. Funner to play casually - but not influencing the meta.

As for the fluff there is very little here.

For the sake of those without the book and/or familiarity with DE this is what is available:

PICK TWO
1) -1 ld bubble from DE units (no self-stack)
2) Fall back & Charge; One mortal wound on a 6 when enemies charge any number of units
3) Lose only one model to morale
4) Advance and charge rerolls; unmod 6s to hit in melee auto wounds (not vs VEHICLE/TITAN)
5) +3" Move to FLY models
6) Reroll 1s for FNP; Units w/o FNP gain it
7) Unmod 6s to wound with poison is +1 Damage (not on artefacts)
8) Deepstrike more out of webway portal

-- No specific relics, strats, traits

Versus:

Black Heart
Tactic: +1 to Power from Pain (better than the first half of 4 above); Units w/o FNP gain it
Relic : Reroll 1s to wound w/i 6''
Trait: Gain CP on a 6 for each CP used
Strat: Vect

Flayed Skull
Tactic: +3" Move to FLY Models; FLY Models (or embarkees) ignore cover and reroll 1s to hit w/ RF
Relic: 4++ after shadowfield fails
Trait: +1S +1A when charged or charging
Strat: +1 to Shoot FLY

Poisoned Tongue
Tactic: Reroll 1s to wound for melee and poison
Relic: Meh pistol
Trait: Use WL leadership w/i 12"
Strat: Re-deploy 3 units before start of battle

Obsidian Rose
Tactic: +6" to Assault, RF, and Heavy
Relic: 3+ Save (regular) and -1 to be hit in melee
Trait: +1 Damage for WL
Strat: Feeling models shoot or fight - if they kill something then none flee

To me is seems you'd still be using Black Heart for Ravagers and Vect, but there are other facets that could potentially be exploited for maybe some interesting melee or poison spam.

I don't think any Eldar needed buffs other than Ynnari getting a little more breathing room.

My night lords already get #1 on that list. If gw would add #4 (which we had at the end of 7th) I'd be thrilled. Wb players would probably take any ONE of those.

So what are you complaining about?

That they are rubbish and don't work very well. I mean, #1 is already the Dark Creed Coven trait and people have tried it, it doesn't have much effect, not to mention the entire army gets that from turn 5 anyway thanks to Power from Pain. Daedalus description of #4 is a little disingenuous, it's not straight up reroll Advance and Charge, it's to do it from turn 1 because we get that through our Power from Pain from turn 2 onwards and this army is rarely in a position to charge turn 1 anyway. The real problem is that these are Kabal triats, and the subfaction has no dedicated combat units that would want to get that close to your opponent except for Incubi and Mandrakes, neither of which get a trait.

The point is that ALL night lords get is #1 which, yes, doesn't do much and de can take that or any other trait PLUS another trait from the list.

Also last I checked no one but eldar players thought they needed more useful traits, strategems, etc. Eldar are pretty good and have been for a few editions. If they got the full sm treatment they would be broken.

Maybe eldar didn't get ad much help because they didn't need as much help.

Yes, night lords trait is bad (I know, my Coven gets exactly, exactly the same trait, with no additional rules at all) but that is not the NL trait. It doesn't stack at all, it's only -1.

Realistically, for DE, PA offers 3 things.

1) better rules for drazar, incubi, and the ability to take the passable Ynnari hqs as HQs, which is nice because you literally cannot take two battalions of the same DE splinter faction without taking one of those. We get 1 HQ choice. Yippee.

2) One new viable chapter trait for Wych Cults that competes with Cursed Blade and Red Grief. Test of Skill+Slashing Impact legitimately does help with many of the problems wyches have in this meta, namely the fact that they a dedicated melee unit get their gak absolutely smashed by a space marine unit who gets full effectiveness out to 30" range.

3) one new viable chapter trait for Coven in the form of the two +1 to wound shooting traits. It is definitely worth giving up the prophets of flesh trait with the right army composition, namely a Venomspam and Talos build.

There are a couple other combos a casual player can build around, but if you play competitively (and now that intercessors and repulsors are a tournament tier list that is most games I play at this point, because every marine player has just kind of accumulated those over the course of the edition. (

Wytch traits don`t look bad on paper:
Test of skills look good for bikes - wounding T7 vehicles on 4 and T8 on 5;
The art of pain - extra round power of pain.
For wytch lovers - the 3++ in close combat also look interesting

Maybe you have to test it before writting it out. Maybe it`s not top notch competitive, but i was going to try it if i was DE player.

I have tested several of the Wych combos, I play wych cult heavy lists with my DE pretty exclusively.

One of the big problems with this release is that the current base obsessions are pretty good, and that because the already small Deldar army list has been needlessly trisected, we actually get less of the usual WL traits/Strats/etc that people expect, so losing that one extra relic/strat/trait from the base book obsessions is a bigger deal.

It's a bit like if SM buildabear tactics had to entirely give up super doctrines+Supplement content to use them....there would just be no way that any combo of successor traits would add up to EVERYTHING in the IH supplement. It's a bit less stark for DE, but still as someone above outlined, Black Heart kabal for instance comes with

-The most important stratagem in the entire book
-Hands down the best kabal relic
-the best Kabal warlord trait.

Even if it had no army benefit, at all, I would consider Black Heart's relic, WL and Strat worth more than any combination of 2 kabal traits.

Right out of the bat, the following Wych Cult traits are absolute crap, inarguably:

-Trophy Takers. Morale does not matter in 8th. It is basically never worth building your army around.
-The Art of Pain. Treating the battle round as 1 higher but ONLY when you are already within 1" removes the biggest possible benefit of this trait, which is being able to re-roll charges turn 1. So what this trait boils down to is +1WS on turn 2. Berserk Fugue mathmatically works out to be this, except all the time, AND it stacks with the +1 to hit that we already get from PFP turn 3. So Art of Pain is worse Berserk fugue.
-Stimulant Innovators. Being able to use a fairly poor stratagem for cheaper CP is not worth one of your traits. I can see the argument for the Coven trait that lets you use the fairly good Torturer's Craft strat for 1CP instead of 2, but Hyperstimm Backlash is really quite crap - it basically is a stratagem that only works on 1, maybe 2 of the units you have on the board. The best use of this is a 1CP strataem to give a unit +1A for 1 turn...and then give them mortal wounds. Hmm.

Further, Acrobatic Display can't be used with other traits, and Berserk Fugue and Precise Killers cannot be used together.

That means there are only 6 possible combinations of the semi-decent or better traits for custom wych cults (Excluding Berserk Fugue+Precise Killers, but then adding Acrobatic Display).

Precise Killers, Berserk Fugue, and Slashing Impact are all direct damage increases.

Precise Killers: 1/6 of your wounds are 1/6 deadlier against all targets with 5+ armor or better (wyches can only have -1AP, after all). Pros: Works on charges. Cons: less effective than Berserk Fugue, much less effective than Slashing Impact vs most targets. 10% damage increase vs GEQ, 25% vs MEQ.

Berserk Fugue: Flat 16.7% damage increase against all targets. Pros: reliable damage increase as opposed to the variable increase of Precise Killers. Cons: Always worse than slashing impact, also only works on the charge. Also, works on vehicles, which Slashing does not.

Slashing Impact: Each charging model deals .333 mortal wounds in addition to regular damage. This is a 50% damage boost vs GEQ for basic wyches, 150% damage boost vs MEQ.

And then we get to Test of Skill, the unique utility of which when applied to Flyers has already been talked about. Flyers are the only <wych cult> anti-vehicle unit in the game, and besides Test of Skill every single other wych trait in the game is a melee-only bonus. So even if ToS did NOTHING for other models in the wych arsenal (which it does not, it's quite solid on many Cult units) it would be a thing to consider for almost every WC focused army list out there that wants to hurt tanks.

IMO, Test of Skill+Slashing Impact would seem to be the best combination of 2 traits into nearly every meta out there, unless you have absolutely no flyers, in which case you might consider Berserk Fugue+Slashing Impact.

So now let's talk about Acrobatic Display. IMO this trait is competing against only one other trait as the "Defensive Wych Cult trait" - Cursed Blade. CB has an offensive component in its +1S, but its big draw is the loss of only 1 model to morale, which allows a cult player to field maxed out units. You can cram up to 12 bikes, 15 hellions, and 20 wyches into a single unit, which is amazing for Combat Drug efficiency, Stratagem efficiency, etc, but only when wiping half the unit doesn't mean the other half is gone.

What Acrobatic offers over CB supposedly is staying power, upping Wyches save vs Fight Phase wounds by 16%. But CB's offensive component means that more opponents are dead before they get to swing back against you.

Take the following situation: 10 Wyches charge 10 Kabalites, first with Cursed Blade then with Acrobatic Display. How do they do between their first fight phase and their next fight phase?

10 CB wyches kill 3.1 tacticals with their 30 attacks. Round to 3. 10 AD wyches kill 2.2 tacticals with their 30 attacks. Round to 2. 7 remaining tacticals attack the CB wyches back with 14 attacks, killing 3.1 in return. 8 remaining tacticals attack the AD wyches with 16 attacks, killing 2.4 in return.

Then the next round starts. The AD wyches get hit by 8 bolt pistols, losing 3 wyches. The CB wyches get attacked by 7, losing 2.5. Remember that bolt pistol attacks do not trigger the Dodge invuln save, so they only get a 6++. Then in melee, the wyches take 8 and 7 melee attacks. On average, in both units, 7 wyches are dead at this point, the difference in average wyches killed is only 0.4. But the CB wyches with their 2 rounds of melee kill 4 marines, and the Acrobatic Display wyches kill only 3.

Hence why I doubt AD will gain too much traction. Wyches CAN NOT compete with Shock Assault marines in a drag-out fight, increasing their durability by what is effectively a tiny margin doesn't change that. How they can compete is by leaning in to offense and obliterating those marines - 10 Berserk Fugue+Slashing Impact wyches kill 6 marines on the charge, lose only 4 wyches before their second round of hits, and nearly mop up the remaining 4 in the second round. With most Combat Drugs or a couple upgrades, those marines are gone.

Reply by: Elbows - click to view full reply 

29836

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 16:09:10

Post by: Elbows

I think my biggest sadness, was that while a few of the Exarch traits helped some Aspect Warriors, the Howling Banshees - literally the new models, got nothing to help them. Their Exarch traits are all, without question, worse than the basic Exarch trait they begin with. So, as a whole, they actually got worse...because things like Striking Scorpions (which were already superior) became better.

Net result was that Banshees got worse, while receiving nice new models. That's fething bizarre.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 16:49:35

Post by: Daedalus81

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I dont really agree.

The forum complains about perceived power creep, but then complain when their own faction doesn't get the perceived creep?

People can be upset about it, but it borders on a selfish motivation if your army is strong already.

Power creep doesn't exist if all factions are increased in power at the same time equally. Those people that complain about power creep are more often than not met with the response of 'don't worry, soon you'll get yours, clearly GW is moving towards a new level of power across the game and soon we'll all be equal!' When this inevitably doesn't happen people get vexed.

Its not just about power creep either, there's a whole range of things that feed into this. Model releases, interesting rules and even a lore focus can turn a player on (or off) the hobby.

Its not selfish to expect the same/mildly similar treatment as other factions in the same campaign. That's rational and reasonable.

I think it's normal to want more awesome stuff, but we risk stepping on our own toes and sending the wrong message to GW when others ignore the issues in lieu of "I want it, too" syndrome.

In regards to shifting power levels - I think part is people being shocked at marines being competitive and being unprepared to deal with new challenges and part rules that may be a bit strong. There is no doubt in my mind that the way the new books were written in terms of rule clarity and dynamics (you won't find explosions that occur on anything other than unmodified rolls). Everyone should want that. Not everyone will get the power boost like marines needed.

Models are an elusive beast and they just come when GW has the inspiration and slot to kick them out (and clearly they're quite a bit more inspired over on the AoS end at the moment).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
I think my biggest sadness, was that while a few of the Exarch traits helped some Aspect Warriors, the Howling Banshees - literally the new models, got nothing to help them. Their Exarch traits are all, without question, worse than the basic Exarch trait they begin with. So, as a whole, they actually got worse...because things like Striking Scorpions (which were already superior) became better.

Net result was that Banshees got worse, while receiving nice new models. That's fething bizarre.

I guess I'm confused. What is it that you hoped they would get? -1 to be hit plus a 5+++ in melee on a unit that has a +3 to charge, has M8, can advance and charge, and can't be overwatched seems reasonably durable to me. Is it the damage output?

For posterity to people without the book Banshee options below:

1) -1 to be hit in melee (standard- pay 1 CP to have this plus one other below or just one below)
2) 5+++ in melee for whole unit
3) Exarch can make 2 attacks at S6 AP3 D3 (this one seems pretty terrible)
4) -2 Attacks to an enemy model w/i 1" of Exarch
5) Exarch gains +1A; +2A if equipped with mirror swords
6) Exarch unmod 6s to hit cause 1 mortal wound in addition to other damage
7) D3 mortal wounds on 4+ to unit w/i 1" of Exarch after charge

Reply by: Karol - click to view full reply 

120227

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 17:47:33

Post by: Karol

Everyone should want that. Not everyone will get the power boost like marines needed.

Isn't that why some people are unhappy about the changes. No one wants their book to stay unupdated, while other armies win more against you. There is a break point to how many games one can lose with no way of doing better.

Reply by: Sterling191 - click to view full reply 

121068

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 17:58:56

Post by: Sterling191

The 5+++ is Exarch only.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 18:11:33

Post by: Daedalus81

Sterling191 wrote:
The 5+++ is Exarch only.

That's not how I read it? It just has to have an Exarch alive to benefit.

Whilst this unit contains a Howling
Banshee Exarch, when a model in this unit would lose
a wound in the Fight phase, roll one D6; on a 5+ that
wound is not lost.

Reply by: Gene St. Ealer - click to view full reply 

103063

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 18:20:40

Post by: Gene St. Ealer

It's damage, it's always been damage. Banshees get into combat pretty well and tank decently for T3 4+ models. But even now Intercessors (and probably most everything else, that's just what comes to mind) best Banshees in combat. That should've been fixed with the "updated datasheet" (lmao, what a crock)

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 18:42:25

Post by: Daedalus81

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
It's damage, it's always been damage. Banshees get into combat pretty well and tank decently for T3 4+ models. But even now Intercessors (and probably most everything else, that's just what comes to mind) best Banshees in combat. That should've been fixed with the "updated datasheet" (lmao, what a crock)

Well, they're 4+/5+++ and -1 to be hit.

Let's assume Intercessor Vets with a TH - 101 points, which is roughly 8 Banshees & executioner.

They charge, don't fail, and don't get overwatched.

The 8 pistol shots scratch a wound.

14 * .666 * .333 * .833 = 2.6
3 * .666 * .5 * .833 * 2 = 1.6

5.2 * (17/2) = 44 points killed

And the Intercessors have two plus the TH sarge left:
6 * .5 * .666 * .5 * .666 = 0.7
4 * .333 * .833 = 1.1 -- at most one-ish model will die, because the 3 damage will just negate FNP

2 models * 13 = 26 points killed

Even IF the Intercessors are full strength the TH sarge is still hitting on 5s. The extra 2 Intercessors would kill another model making them about equal in ability, but if Banshees aren't getting the charge something has gone horribly wrong.

Reply by: the_scotsman - click to view full reply 

35310

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 18:50:59

Post by: the_scotsman

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I dont really agree.

The forum complains about perceived power creep, but then complain when their own faction doesn't get the perceived creep?

People can be upset about it, but it borders on a selfish motivation if your army is strong already.

Power creep doesn't exist if all factions are increased in power at the same time equally. Those people that complain about power creep are more often than not met with the response of 'don't worry, soon you'll get yours, clearly GW is moving towards a new level of power across the game and soon we'll all be equal!' When this inevitably doesn't happen people get vexed.

Its not just about power creep either, there's a whole range of things that feed into this. Model releases, interesting rules and even a lore focus can turn a player on (or off) the hobby.

Its not selfish to expect the same/mildly similar treatment as other factions in the same campaign. That's rational and reasonable.

I think it's normal to want more awesome stuff, but we risk stepping on our own toes and sending the wrong message to GW when others ignore the issues in lieu of "I want it, too" syndrome.

In regards to shifting power levels - I think part is people being shocked at marines being competitive and being unprepared to deal with new challenges and part rules that may be a bit strong. There is no doubt in my mind that the way the new books were written in terms of rule clarity and dynamics (you won't find explosions that occur on anything other than unmodified rolls). Everyone should want that. Not everyone will get the power boost like marines needed.

Models are an elusive beast and they just come when GW has the inspiration and slot to kick them out (and clearly they're quite a bit more inspired over on the AoS end at the moment).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
I think my biggest sadness, was that while a few of the Exarch traits helped some Aspect Warriors, the Howling Banshees - literally the new models, got nothing to help them. Their Exarch traits are all, without question, worse than the basic Exarch trait they begin with. So, as a whole, they actually got worse...because things like Striking Scorpions (which were already superior) became better.

Net result was that Banshees got worse, while receiving nice new models. That's fething bizarre.

I guess I'm confused. What is it that you hoped they would get? -1 to be hit plus a 5+++ in melee on a unit that has a +3 to charge, has M8, can advance and charge, and can't be overwatched seems reasonably durable to me. Is it the damage output?

For posterity to people without the book Banshee options below:

1) -1 to be hit in melee (standard- pay 1 CP to have this plus one other below or just one below)
2) 5+++ in melee for whole unit
3) Exarch can make 2 attacks at S6 AP3 D3 (this one seems pretty terrible)
4) -2 Attacks to an enemy model w/i 1" of Exarch
5) Exarch gains +1A; +2A if equipped with mirror swords
6) Exarch unmod 6s to hit cause 1 mortal wound in addition to other damage
7) D3 mortal wounds on 4+ to unit w/i 1" of Exarch after charge

First off, you have #3 wrong, the Exarch gains bonus strength but also gets the strength bonus on her executioner weapon, so she actually makes 2 S8 Ap-3 D3 attacks. That is one of the better traits tbh.

I had hoped they would gain quite a lot more damage for their point cost.

Currently, a tactical marine in melee throws 2 attacks. A dark eldar Wych makes a minimum of 3, often 4 (dependent on Drugs/Subfaction traits). A Harlequin makes 4.

A howling banshee makes 2 S3 AP-3 D1 attacks in melee, for an average of 0.37 unsaved wounds against MEQ, supposedly the target they are most specialized to fight.

The 5+++ in melee is definitely the best trait, however you are comparing it not in a vacuum, but instead as an exchange for a -1 to hit in melee. So it makes them slightly more durable versus D1, and quite a bit less durable vs D2+ weapons. You can take both traits, which is IMO the best way to run banshees, but it costs a CP, and the unit still suffers the same issues every melee unit does in 8th: Fall Back makes melee-only defenses a dubious proposition at best, and FLY keyword and titanic units make the utility of a unit that basically just ties things up in melee a bit sketchy as well.

Banshees just get penalized by too many core rules mechanics. To use their good charging rules, they must Advance and give up their pistols (making their damage even more scant). The fact they can't advance when they pop out of a webway portal makes their +3" a lot less reliable. Fall back makes it easy to ignore their melee-only defenses and turn them into an extremely squishy T3 4+ unit. Fly and Titanic means in most competitive matchups there simply is no target that it is valuable to get them into melee with.

All the damage buffs they did give them are fairly wimpy compared to the baseline rule they get (+17% extra durability in melee). Assuming a min squad of banshees, you've got:

3) is 1 extra unsaved wound vs standard vehicles. The squad of banshees would then cause 3 unsaved wounds total to a standard tank...very iffy for a what, 70 point unit?
5) provides a 15% damage boost of the min squad vs marines (Bringing them up to a whopping 2.4 unsaved wounds vs MEQ). Even with +2A instead of +1A, Mirrorswords are still mathmatically inferior vs all targets than an executioner, including guardsmen.
6) Same as 5) with an executioner. Gives you the same damage bump from 2.5 to 3 unsaved MEQ wounds.
7) twice as effective as 6 but less reliable.

The best damage boost they got is 7, which gives an average of 1 extra mortal wound on the charge. 1 extra mortal wound is basically never worth -1 to hit in melee for the whole squad.

Reply by: Imateria - click to view full reply 

98904

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 18:51:15

Post by: Imateria

 Daedalus81 wrote:


For posterity to people without the book Banshee options below:

1) -1 to be hit in melee (standard- pay 1 CP to have this plus one other below or just one below)
2) 5+++ in melee for whole unit
3) Exarch can make 2 attacks at S6 AP3 D3 (this one seems pretty terrible)
4) -2 Attacks to an enemy model w/i 1" of Exarch
5) Exarch gains +1A; +2A if equipped with mirror swords
6) Exarch unmod 6s to hit cause 1 mortal wound in addition to other damage
7) D3 mortal wounds on 4+ to unit w/i 1" of Exarch after charge

I'm not sure why you're confused, Banshees are supposed to be Elite killers but with only 2 S3 attacks they aren't killing anything and they are the only aspect that didn't get any Exarch Powers that can help them with their job.

Now compare that to the powers that are available to the other Aspect Shrines. Scorpion Exarchs have an ability that makes the whole units Mandiblasters go off on a 5+. Swooping Hawk Exarchs have an ability that if they hit in overwatch, the charging unit is -2 to charge, or better yet an ability where the units Grenade Packs do mortal wounds on a 5+ instead of a 6+. Or how about Warp Spiders, that get an ability to reroll all failed hits on the turn they drop down. Banshees got nothing that really benefits the unit (swapping one defensive power for another weaker power is not a good trade), and bizzarly their mortal wound output can only be on the Exarch whilst Scorpions and Hawks got a significant boost to theirs unit wide.

Mind you, my Shadow Spectres didn't even get Exarch Powers (not that I expect them to anyway).

Reply by: SeanDrake - click to view full reply 

63118

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 18:53:07

Post by: SeanDrake

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Its incredibly thin.
From a DE perspective you get five pages, covering 2 datasheets and 3 sets of traits, almost all of which are worse than options you already have outside of niche cases (the as mentioned test of skill flyers for instance). There may be options for pure mix and match - but at the cost of giving up chapter specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems. Labyrinthine Cunning, Vect, Living Muse? That's a lot to give up unless you are having two kabal detachments (and I know many do for flayed skull, but still.)

Its unclear anything that wasn't viable before has been made so by this addition. So it isn't very interesting from a design perspective.

For CWE its a similar story. Okay, its even more unclear why you wouldn't max out your Crimson Hunter Exarchs - but the bulk of the rest is just fluffy sidegrades, and the successor craftworld traits as a whole are marginal. It may be worth getting cover and another ability rather than -1 to hit outside 12 but its not obviously game changing.

Ynnari cost reductions were obvious - but it doesn't change the fact the faction has been cut off at the knees. Funner to play casually - but not influencing the meta.

As for the fluff there is very little here.

For the sake of those without the book and/or familiarity with DE this is what is available:

PICK TWO
1) -1 ld bubble from DE units (no self-stack)
2) Fall back & Charge; One mortal wound on a 6 when enemies charge any number of units
3) Lose only one model to morale
4) Advance and charge rerolls; unmod 6s to hit in melee auto wounds (not vs VEHICLE/TITAN)
5) +3" Move to FLY models
6) Reroll 1s for FNP; Units w/o FNP gain it
7) Unmod 6s to wound with poison is +1 Damage (not on artefacts)
8) Deepstrike more out of webway portal

-- No specific relics, strats, traits

Versus:

Black Heart
Tactic: +1 to Power from Pain (better than the first half of 4 above); Units w/o FNP gain it
Relic : Reroll 1s to wound w/i 6''
Trait: Gain CP on a 6 for each CP used
Strat: Vect

Flayed Skull
Tactic: +3" Move to FLY Models; FLY Models (or embarkees) ignore cover and reroll 1s to hit w/ RF
Relic: 4++ after shadowfield fails
Trait: +1S +1A when charged or charging
Strat: +1 to Shoot FLY

Poisoned Tongue
Tactic: Reroll 1s to wound for melee and poison
Relic: Meh pistol
Trait: Use WL leadership w/i 12"
Strat: Re-deploy 3 units before start of battle

Obsidian Rose
Tactic: +6" to Assault, RF, and Heavy
Relic: 3+ Save (regular) and -1 to be hit in melee
Trait: +1 Damage for WL
Strat: Feeling models shoot or fight - if they kill something then none flee

To me is seems you'd still be using Black Heart for Ravagers and Vect, but there are other facets that could potentially be exploited for maybe some interesting melee or poison spam.

I don't think any Eldar needed buffs other than Ynnari getting a little more breathing room.

My night lords already get #1 on that list. If gw would add #4 (which we had at the end of 7th) I'd be thrilled. Wb players would probably take any ONE of those.

So what are you complaining about?

I doubt that quite a bit, I have played for a long time and one consistent in that time is csm players inherent ability to moan about there rules unless they are 3.5 levels of broken you could give them all 8 and they would still find something to moan about(I played Alpha Legion in 3.5 as an aside). Even when they have a point like the blandining that the following codex became after 3.5 they hammer on so much its hard to have any sympathy given only codex marines have had more releases than csm/legions in years. I think of it as the VotLW effect (Veteran’s of the Long Whine).

Reply by: the_scotsman - click to view full reply 

35310

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 19:01:35

Post by: the_scotsman

 Imateria wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


For posterity to people without the book Banshee options below:

1) -1 to be hit in melee (standard- pay 1 CP to have this plus one other below or just one below)
2) 5+++ in melee for whole unit
3) Exarch can make 2 attacks at S6 AP3 D3 (this one seems pretty terrible)
4) -2 Attacks to an enemy model w/i 1" of Exarch
5) Exarch gains +1A; +2A if equipped with mirror swords
6) Exarch unmod 6s to hit cause 1 mortal wound in addition to other damage
7) D3 mortal wounds on 4+ to unit w/i 1" of Exarch after charge

I'm not sure why you're confused, Banshees are supposed to be Elite killers but with only 2 S3 attacks they aren't killing anything and they are the only aspect that didn't get any Exarch Powers that can help them with their job.

Now compare that to the powers that are available to the other Aspect Shrines. Scorpion Exarchs have an ability that makes the whole units Mandiblasters go off on a 5+. Swooping Hawk Exarchs have an ability that if they hit in overwatch, the charging unit is -2 to charge, or better yet an ability where the units Grenade Packs do mortal wounds on a 5+ instead of a 6+. Or how about Warp Spiders, that get an ability to reroll all failed hits on the turn they drop down. Banshees got nothing that really benefits the unit (swapping one defensive power for another weaker power is not a good trade), and bizzarly their mortal wound output can only be on the Exarch whilst Scorpions and Hawks got a significant boost to theirs unit wide.

Mind you, my Shadow Spectres didn't even get Exarch Powers (not that I expect them to anyway).

Really the only benefit is if you take a big unit of 10 you can spend 1CP to make them fairly tanky*

*until you fail to 3-point someone and they just fall back and sweep the whole squad away with zero effort. 5 intercessors kill 3.7 banshees with Tactical Doctrine bolt rifles.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 19:12:45

Post by: Daedalus81

the_scotsman wrote:


First off, you have #3 wrong, the Exarch gains bonus strength but also gets the strength bonus on her executioner weapon, so she actually makes 2 S8 Ap-3 D3 attacks. That is one of the better traits tbh.

I had hoped they would gain quite a lot more damage for their point cost.

Currently, a tactical marine in melee throws 2 attacks. A dark eldar Wych makes a minimum of 3, often 4 (dependent on Drugs/Subfaction traits). A Harlequin makes 4.

A howling banshee makes 2 S3 AP-3 D1 attacks in melee, for an average of 0.37 unsaved wounds against MEQ, supposedly the target they are most specialized to fight.

The 5+++ in melee is definitely the best trait, however you are comparing it not in a vacuum, but instead as an exchange for a -1 to hit in melee. So it makes them slightly more durable versus D1, and quite a bit less durable vs D2+ weapons. You can take both traits, which is IMO the best way to run banshees, but it costs a CP, and the unit still suffers the same issues every melee unit does in 8th: Fall Back makes melee-only defenses a dubious proposition at best, and FLY keyword and titanic units make the utility of a unit that basically just ties things up in melee a bit sketchy as well.

Banshees just get penalized by too many core rules mechanics. To use their good charging rules, they must Advance and give up their pistols (making their damage even more scant). The fact they can't advance when they pop out of a webway portal makes their +3" a lot less reliable. Fall back makes it easy to ignore their melee-only defenses and turn them into an extremely squishy T3 4+ unit. Fly and Titanic means in most competitive matchups there simply is no target that it is valuable to get them into melee with.

All the damage buffs they did give them are fairly wimpy compared to the baseline rule they get (+17% extra durability in melee). Assuming a min squad of banshees, you've got:

3) is 1 extra unsaved wound vs standard vehicles. The squad of banshees would then cause 3 unsaved wounds total to a standard tank...very iffy for a what, 70 point unit?
5) provides a 15% damage boost of the min squad vs marines (Bringing them up to a whopping 2.4 unsaved wounds vs MEQ). Even with +2A instead of +1A, Mirrorswords are still mathmatically inferior vs all targets than an executioner, including guardsmen.
6) Same as 5) with an executioner. Gives you the same damage bump from 2.5 to 3 unsaved MEQ wounds.
7) twice as effective as 6 but less reliable.

The best damage boost they got is 7, which gives an average of 1 extra mortal wound on the charge. 1 extra mortal wound is basically never worth -1 to hit in melee for the whole squad.

Ok, this is quite helpful.

Wyches have more attacks, but much less AP, right?
A fully stacked Harlie is a considerable number of points and suffers the same pistol issue. Without pistols they're 19 to 20 points for better attacks, but lack overwatch deny (belt helps) and are not -1 to be hit in combat nor do they have a decent regular save (same for wyches). +3" out of a portal is still far better than none.

Banshees still seem like the more reliable unit with less external risk tied to it.

There are a lot more marines on the tables these days. Granted Assault Cents and Aggressors are no joke in melee. I'd probably opt to not send Banshees their way unless I was sure I could wrap them with whatever models survive or I was turning them off for a killy character to come in (or Spears), which is likely a sound method to remove those jerks.

I get the feeling that people want them to be a swiss army knife, but that would totally butcher the purpose of the other aspects wouldn't it?

Reply by: PenitentJake - click to view full reply 

120048

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 19:20:17

Post by: PenitentJake

 Elbows wrote:
I think my biggest sadness, was that while a few of the Exarch traits helped some Aspect Warriors, the Howling Banshees - literally the new models, got nothing to help them. Their Exarch traits are all, without question, worse than the basic Exarch trait they begin with. So, as a whole, they actually got worse...because things like Striking Scorpions (which were already superior) became better.

Net result was that Banshees got worse, while receiving nice new models. That's fething bizarre.

Except that exemplar trait allows a player to keep the old one AND take one of the new ones. I'll review the traits themselves when I'm back to my book, because I also don't necessarily buy the "none of these traits are good" argument. I think what happens is that any trait can be good if you build with it in mind and seek combinations.

Any trait will be worse if you don't.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 19:33:15

Post by: Daedalus81

 Imateria wrote:


Now compare that to the powers that are available to the other Aspect Shrines. Scorpion Exarchs have an ability that makes the whole units Mandiblasters go off on a 5+. Swooping Hawk Exarchs have an ability that if they hit in overwatch, the charging unit is -2 to charge, or better yet an ability where the units Grenade Packs do mortal wounds on a 5+ instead of a 6+. Or how about Warp Spiders, that get an ability to reroll all failed hits on the turn they drop down. Banshees got nothing that really benefits the unit (swapping one defensive power for another weaker power is not a good trade), and bizzarly their mortal wound output can only be on the Exarch whilst Scorpions and Hawks got a significant boost to theirs unit wide.

Mind you, my Shadow Spectres didn't even get Exarch Powers (not that I expect them to anyway).

I don't deny these advantages.

Scorpions need combat for the blasters and do not advance and charge, or +3 to charge, nor do they ignore overwatch. They're only a couple points cheaper for S4 AP0 and the same number of attacks. Whatever they catch with mandiblasters they lose on melee and getting smacked back. Hawks are cool, too, but then that's a defensive stance to take and have no melee potential if they do get charged. The grenades are spiffy, but then you're moving danger close and it's most effective against larger units and you won't have the charge blocker. Warp Spiders are also awesome, but we're talking about a 12" gun.

All of these units have the same issue of being popped off my Intercessors the turn after they make their gambit. Banshees and Spiders are the most reliable deploys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:


Really the only benefit is if you take a big unit of 10 you can spend 1CP to make them fairly tanky*

*until you fail to 3-point someone and they just fall back and sweep the whole squad away with zero effort. 5 intercessors kill 3.7 banshees with Tactical Doctrine bolt rifles.

Sure - there is a cost to the FNP and a risk to any melee unit.

Scorpions would surely do better simply due to the Mandiblasters, but they have to get there first, which is way more difficult and requires more support to pull off.

Reply by: the_scotsman - click to view full reply 

35310

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 19:47:31

Post by: the_scotsman

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


First off, you have #3 wrong, the Exarch gains bonus strength but also gets the strength bonus on her executioner weapon, so she actually makes 2 S8 Ap-3 D3 attacks. That is one of the better traits tbh.

I had hoped they would gain quite a lot more damage for their point cost.

Currently, a tactical marine in melee throws 2 attacks. A dark eldar Wych makes a minimum of 3, often 4 (dependent on Drugs/Subfaction traits). A Harlequin makes 4.

A howling banshee makes 2 S3 AP-3 D1 attacks in melee, for an average of 0.37 unsaved wounds against MEQ, supposedly the target they are most specialized to fight.

The 5+++ in melee is definitely the best trait, however you are comparing it not in a vacuum, but instead as an exchange for a -1 to hit in melee. So it makes them slightly more durable versus D1, and quite a bit less durable vs D2+ weapons. You can take both traits, which is IMO the best way to run banshees, but it costs a CP, and the unit still suffers the same issues every melee unit does in 8th: Fall Back makes melee-only defenses a dubious proposition at best, and FLY keyword and titanic units make the utility of a unit that basically just ties things up in melee a bit sketchy as well.

Banshees just get penalized by too many core rules mechanics. To use their good charging rules, they must Advance and give up their pistols (making their damage even more scant). The fact they can't advance when they pop out of a webway portal makes their +3" a lot less reliable. Fall back makes it easy to ignore their melee-only defenses and turn them into an extremely squishy T3 4+ unit. Fly and Titanic means in most competitive matchups there simply is no target that it is valuable to get them into melee with.

All the damage buffs they did give them are fairly wimpy compared to the baseline rule they get (+17% extra durability in melee). Assuming a min squad of banshees, you've got:

3) is 1 extra unsaved wound vs standard vehicles. The squad of banshees would then cause 3 unsaved wounds total to a standard tank...very iffy for a what, 70 point unit?
5) provides a 15% damage boost of the min squad vs marines (Bringing them up to a whopping 2.4 unsaved wounds vs MEQ). Even with +2A instead of +1A, Mirrorswords are still mathmatically inferior vs all targets than an executioner, including guardsmen.
6) Same as 5) with an executioner. Gives you the same damage bump from 2.5 to 3 unsaved MEQ wounds.
7) twice as effective as 6 but less reliable.

The best damage boost they got is 7, which gives an average of 1 extra mortal wound on the charge. 1 extra mortal wound is basically never worth -1 to hit in melee for the whole squad.

Ok, this is quite helpful.

Wyches have more attacks, but much less AP, right?
A fully stacked Harlie is a considerable number of points and suffers the same pistol issue. Without pistols they're 19 to 20 points for better attacks, but lack overwatch deny (belt helps) and are not -1 to be hit in combat nor do they have a decent regular save (same for wyches). +3" out of a portal is still far better than none.

Banshees still seem like the more reliable unit with less external risk tied to it.

There are a lot more marines on the tables these days. Granted Assault Cents and Aggressors are no joke in melee. I'd probably opt to not send Banshees their way unless I was sure I could wrap them with whatever models survive or I was turning them off for a killy character to come in (or Spears), which is likely a sound method to remove those jerks.

I get the feeling that people want them to be a swiss army knife, but that would totally butcher the purpose of the other aspects wouldn't it?

Wyches have no AP, true. They are also 8ppm. Equal points of wyches kills exactly the same number of marines, more guardsmen, is better defensively versus anyone with AP on their weapons, and have a rule that prevents fallback.

So basically...wyches are better at being specialized anti-elite melee units. And they're not. They're actually pretty bad at that, that's using them in kind of an unintended role where they may not perform terribly well.

Peak Banshee performance is piss-poor wych performance.

Harlequins do suffer similar problems to Banshees. They are similarly poor, and the single best build for them (a melee specialist unit) is to...not get into melee at all, and just load up on melta pistols and stay aboard their transport.

The point I was trying to make with wyches and harlequins is that the thing banshees are held back by is their deadliness, driven by what is now a ridiculously low number of attacks for a fast, ninja-type unit that they are supposed to be. When a unit of howling banshees charges a unit of space marines holding fething gigantic lascannons and then those two units proceed to make the exact same number of attacks in melee against each other...that's just kind of stupid.

Nobody wants banshees to be swiss army knives. Everybody wants banshees to be able to do what is supposed to be their job: Kill high armored, low invuln, low toughness elite units.

Nobody wants them to kill monsters the best in melee, that's Shining Spears.

Nobody wants them to kill GEQ best in melee, that's Striking Scorpions.

But right now, Striking Scorpions with the 5+ mandiblaster trait are way, WAY better at killing MEQ than banshees. 6 Scorpions with a Scorpions Claw exarch cost the same as 5 banshees with an executioner exarch, and they cause 30% more damage than banshees do with their best offensive trait. And they come with deep strike, for free. And more armor, which basically mitigates the -1 to hit. And a bonus vs units in cover. The only thing the banshees do is ignore overwatch, which while it ain't nothing, I would gladly give up to make them quasi-functional.

If you want to bring banshees in a casual game, you've got to spend the CP to give them the 5++ and the -1 to hit, and you've got to basically use them as a tarpit the best you can. And they're...maybe half decent, if definitely overpriced, for that job. Maybe you're playing a casual enough game where your opponent has some tank you can maybe tie up and shut down to justify the 133 points+1CP of the banshee unit.

Reply by: Tyel - click to view full reply 

101163

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 19:50:52

Post by: Tyel

Edit - Wrote this before the_scotsman's post appeared. Its broadly similar.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I get the feeling that people want them to be a swiss army knife, but that would totally butcher the purpose of the other aspects wouldn't it?

It might but right now you have a unit which doesn't do much of anything.

The problem is that a banshee is 13 points.
And you can't deal with hordes, because you don't have the attacks.
You can't deal with vehicles/monsters, because you only do 1 damage.
Then you run them into say intercessors, which should be the preferred target, and the result is decidedly mediocre. 25%ish expected return in assault - even with the movement buffs, and ignore overwatch, isn't, imo at least, worth it. The Exarch boosts things a bit - but not dramatically so.

To be fair, things are a lot better if you can charge say Incubi or Khorne Berzerkers, but both units have their own problems (the foremost being probably overcosted). And this is a pretty specific niche.

Yes you can wrap and trap - you have the extra movement - but its still not guaranteed. Not least because since you kill so little, most things can just punch their way clear of Banshees. If your opponent can walk away (or fly - like about half the good units in the game) they can just shoot you. Or just counter charge you - because at the end of the day, you are Fire Warriors at almost twice the cost. Not exactly hard to punch to death, even with -1 to hit from War Shout.

If Eldar had really obvious assault units that could follow in after you nullify the overwatch it might make some sense - but they don't really. MSU units to run around tagging vehicles? I feel the meta has sort of moved on from this being a thing - unless your opponent has really put no thought into how they will deal with such units. Shooting 5 banshees is fairly easy.

I realise the cry will always be "every assault unit can't be genestealers or its boring" - but I feel if you are not odds on to crush whatever you touch, it doesn't make up for the time you fluff the charge, your opponent rolls hot on overwatch (not a problem here but still) or you roll below average on your attack (and then your opponent rolls above average with theirs.) I mean the 25% on Intercessors is about the mathematical average - you are going to do worse about half the time.

To some degree though this is a problem with assault in general. I think its fine for a fun one off game with friends - but going to a tournament, you are too exposed to crap dice. Which to be fair is true of shooting - but if you fail a few critical charges, its often game over. Whereas fluffing one unit's shooting can, sometimes at least, be made good by another suddenly getting nothing but 6s.

Reply by: the_scotsman - click to view full reply 

35310

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 20:06:50

Post by: the_scotsman

Tyel wrote:


I realise the cry will always be "every assault unit can't be genestealers or its boring" - but I feel if you are not odds on to crush whatever you touch, it doesn't make up for the time you fluff the charge, your opponent rolls hot on overwatch (not a problem here but still) or you roll below average on your attack (and then your opponent rolls above average with theirs.) I mean the 25% on Intercessors is about the mathematical average - you are going to do worse about half the time.

*Will Smith punches you in the face*

"Welcome to 8th"

Reply by: BrianDavion - click to view full reply 

79409

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 20:19:59

Post by: BrianDavion

The Newman wrote:
Their own ad blurb called out "Codex Supplement-tier updates for these armies" with a bunch of Chaos icons. I take it the new Chaos rules fell short of that by a lot?

we've not seen them. but I imagine, much like Eldar players, there will be unhappyness due to the lack of a doctrine ability.

Reply by: An Actual Englishman - click to view full reply 

117801

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 20:24:29

Post by: An Actual Englishman

BrianDavion wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Their own ad blurb called out "Codex Supplement-tier updates for these armies" with a bunch of Chaos icons. I take it the new Chaos rules fell short of that by a lot?

we've not seen them. but I imagine, much like Eldar players, there will be unhappyness due to the lack of a doctrine ability.

If you read the OP you will notice that the lack of a doctrine ability is nowhere near the only reason for the unhappiness of Eldar players.

Reply by: Elbows - click to view full reply 

29836

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 20:32:35

Post by: Elbows

PenitentJake wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I think my biggest sadness, was that while a few of the Exarch traits helped some Aspect Warriors, the Howling Banshees - literally the new models, got nothing to help them. Their Exarch traits are all, without question, worse than the basic Exarch trait they begin with. So, as a whole, they actually got worse...because things like Striking Scorpions (which were already superior) became better.

Net result was that Banshees got worse, while receiving nice new models. That's fething bizarre.

Except that exemplar trait allows a player to keep the old one AND take one of the new ones. I'll review the traits themselves when I'm back to my book, because I also don't necessarily buy the "none of these traits are good" argument. I think what happens is that any trait can be good if you build with it in mind and seek combinations.

Any trait will be worse if you don't.

Sure, and if you want to spend 1CP, then go for it. The best trait is the one you don't have to plan around, at all. Let's glance at them...

1) Graceful avoidance: 5+ feel no pain in close combat...okay. So maybe they tank a few extra rounds in close combat? They better because they'll be taking a lot of strikes back, since they struggle to kill pretty much anything. Tough 3, and 4+ armour means they'll lose plenty of wounds. This is probably the only one worth adding if you feel like spending CP to gain both.

2) Piercing Strike: Exarch only...lose an attack to boost another one. This is basically crap. There is nothing special or amazing about a Howling Banshee Exarch that makes it a "killing machine" worth delivering while your basic Banshees are cut to ribbons or kill nothing. The Exarch powers which impact only the Exarch are complete garbage.

3) Disarming Strike: Sure...remove 2 from an attacks characteristic. If you ran a minimum unit, and it's whole goal in life was to run in and tie up a large model and reduce its attacks...cool I guess? If that's a suitable use of trained Aspect Warriors to you and you want to run them at something to tie them up...great?

4) Whirling Blades: Bonus attack for the Exarch...yawn. Oh, +2 attacks if you have Mirror Swords (which are crap). Again, only benefits the Exarch, is basically complete gak.

5) Decapitating Strike: ONLY the Exarch...on an unmodified wound roll of '6', inflicts a mortal wound.

6) Nerve Shredding Shriek: When charging a unit, on a 4+ the target unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. Absolute gak. On the level of stratagems you pay for and then have to roll to do something.
___________________________________________________________________________

So there is precisely one trait you could maybe justify with 1CP if you really love your Banshees and think they can make it into close-combat. I'll grant you that one. Banshees have always suffered because they're not as good as Scorpions. Now Scorpions inflict a mortal wound (before the fight phase...so literally faster than Banshees fighting first) on a 5+ for each model in the unit. They're 3 points a model less, have 3+ armour, can deepstrike, and are Strength 4 (though they lack AP...it's irrelevant because they're mortal-wound slingers properly now).

I still occasionally run Banshees...and they still die to a stiff breeze, even against basic Space Marines. Some people are willing to simply say "well they're just a disposable unit to stop overwatch" and if that's plenty for you - then cool. But a lore-appropriate whirlwind of death they are not. Almost all the other Aspects got a proper boost which revitalized them as units for the tabletop. Banshees did not.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 20:44:43

Post by: Daedalus81

I dunno. I just get the feeling that blocking overwatch is a crucial ability coupled with reliable charges is a handy tool to have. Banshees and Spears are like a one two punch -- the 3 damage paragon sabre is perfect for tackling aggressors and you don't need CP spend to keep the original ability.

Reply by: Xenomancers - click to view full reply 

91128

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 20:48:24

Post by: Xenomancers

Banshees are easily the worst aspect. Even Swooping hawks are better for their job of typing up stuff. Plus they do banshee damage from 24 inches away if that is what you need. With options to boost durability or firepower.

I'd probably rate the aspect from worst to last like this.

Banshees
Firedragons
Striking scorpions
Swooping hawks
Dire avengers (worst than hawks but give CP)
Incubi
Dark reapers
Warp-spiders
Crimson hunters
Shinning spears

Reply by: the_scotsman - click to view full reply 

35310

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 20:51:42

Post by: the_scotsman

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I dunno. I just get the feeling that blocking overwatch is a crucial ability coupled with reliable charges is a handy tool to have. Banshees and Spears are like a one two punch -- the 3 damage paragon sabre is perfect for tackling aggressors and you don't need CP spend to keep the original ability.

The problem here is that shining spears are just a one-one punch. Banshee ignore overwatch, shining spears ignore...the melee. They just kill them super dead.

Also paragon saber? Lol. SS exarchs can have a S8 Ap-4 D2 weapon. I haven't done the math but if three spears don't murk 5 intercwssors I done know what else you need.

Reply by: Xenomancers - click to view full reply 

91128

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 20:56:31

Post by: Xenomancers

BrianDavion wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Their own ad blurb called out "Codex Supplement-tier updates for these armies" with a bunch of Chaos icons. I take it the new Chaos rules fell short of that by a lot?

we've not seen them. but I imagine, much like Eldar players, there will be unhappyness due to the lack of a doctrine ability.

Doctrine ability is how marine catch up in power to stuff that was a lot better than they were. Realistically if you removed the super doctrine ability from the armies. Marines would still be good but not the OP gak fest you see now. Eldar already have ap-3 or ap-4 on literally every weapon in their army minus scatter lasers which aren't that popular. Marines actually being able to fight compotently in CC now is also a good thing.

One issue I really have is how few attacks eldar melle specialist have. They need a +1 attack ability too.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 20:58:23

Post by: Daedalus81

the_scotsman wrote:

Also paragon saber? Lol. SS exarchs can have a S8 Ap-4 D2 weapon. I haven't done the math but if three spears don't murk 5 intercwssors I done know what else you need.

I was thinking more along the lines of Aggressors sitting at 3 wounds. D2 requires twice as many attacks, but I keep forgetting that they're S3 so even with Doom probably no bueno.

Spears kill things dead, but if they need to be at 9" or 12" when facing down a pile of flamers they might wish for Banshees.

Reply by: the_scotsman - click to view full reply 

35310

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 21:06:44

Post by: the_scotsman

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Also paragon saber? Lol. SS exarchs can have a S8 Ap-4 D2 weapon. I haven't done the math but if three spears don't murk 5 intercwssors I done know what else you need.

I was thinking more along the lines of Aggressors sitting at 3 wounds. D2 requires twice as many attacks, but I keep forgetting that they're S3 so even with Doom probably no bueno.

Spears kill things dead, but if they need to be at 9" or 12" when facing down a pile of flamers they might wish for Banshees.

Okay then, we will see a unit of howling Banshees for every competitive Warhammer 40k list that uses flamers.

......


Any day now surely.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 21:07:07

Post by: Daedalus81

Actually I forgot the sabre rerolls.

3 * .888 * .555 = 1.5 dead aggressors

The star lance wounds on 3s...

3 * .666 * .666 = 1.33 wounding hits, which does not equate to a dead aggressor, so the sabre is indeed better for that application.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:


Okay then, we will see a unit of howling Banshees for every competitive Warhammer 40k list that uses flamers.

......

Any day now surely.

Are you not seeing the marine lists out there? People are complaining the marines are strong, but they don't want to bring the tools to beat them? I guarantee you're going to see a gak load of 11" flamers soon (on top of the ones already out there).

Reply by: Elbows - click to view full reply 

29836

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 21:17:16

Post by: Elbows

If you find yourself in a situation where you need to charge Aggressors...you're already in trouble. The Eldar do not have a single "mega" close combat unit. They haven't all edition. They have nothing that touches the efficiency of a Ork boyz unit, nothing that touches the pure damage output of a Bloodletter bomb, nothing that touches the madness of a Berzerker unit fighting 2-3 times, etc.

Spears are a great unit...but 36 points for a model as tough as a basic Primaris marine means you'll never field them in suitably large numbers. They have very strong attacks, but few of them (and die when stuck into combat if they don't win on the first charge). Maybe Wraithblades come closest, if teamed with the Ghost detachment from Vigilus...maybe?

Aspect Warriors only work in mixed company, sticking to the few spaces they fit in to do a task. If you want to use Banshees solely for tying stuff up, that's fine....a very tournament way of looking at the unit but fine.

Reply by: PenitentJake - click to view full reply 

120048

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 21:21:07

Post by: PenitentJake

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I dunno. I just get the feeling that blocking overwatch is a crucial ability coupled with reliable charges is a handy tool to have. Banshees and Spears are like a one two punch -- the 3 damage paragon sabre is perfect for tackling aggressors and you don't need CP spend to keep the original ability.

This is it right here. Advance + the 15 inch charge gets you in HTH turn 1 without overwatch; once you're in HTH, all the other units can charge because you've locked up the overwatch. I don't have as much experience playing as must of Dakka, so I may still be getting something wrong. But if I had an HTH unit I couldn't risk losing to overwatch as I charged, I would use Banshees to lock up the target before I charged in with the unit which was the real threat.

When Dakka assesses the effectiveness of a unit, they tend to use an either/ or model. I use a both/ and model.

Example: Striking scorpions are better than Banshees because x. Whereas I would say that Scorpions are even better when they have Banshees with them, because the Banshees charge in first in order to tie up over watchers.

Kinda like "Morale doesn't mean anything"... Unitl I park 20 footslogging sisters on an objective, and use AoF's for immunity to morale. But if I never tried that strategy, it's easy to believe that morale meaningless.

Like I said though, I freely admit, y'all have probably played more games of 8th than I have, so I acknowledge that I'm standing on shakey ground. I also hate it when people use the word "useless" when they really mean "It isn't as useful as I'd like it to be." If people stopped using this little feat of hyperbole, you'd see me acting as the defender of the unpopular a lot less. To argue that Banshees could be better? No problem- that's certainly true. To argue that Banshees are useless? Little harder to sell.

Reply by: BrianDavion - click to view full reply 

79409

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 21:26:33

Post by: BrianDavion

 Elbows wrote:
If you find yourself in a situation where you need to charge Aggressors...you're already in trouble. The Eldar do not have a single "mega" close combat unit. They haven't all edition. They have nothing that touches the efficiency of a Ork boyz unit, nothing that touches the pure damage output of a Bloodletter bomb, nothing that touches the madness of a Berzerker unit fighting 2-3 times, etc.

Spears are a great unit...but 36 points for a model as tough as a basic Primaris marine means you'll never field them in suitably large numbers. They have very strong attacks, but few of them (and die when stuck into combat if they don't win on the first charge). Maybe Wraithblades come closest, if teamed with the Ghost detachment from Vigilus...maybe?

Aspect Warriors only work in mixed company, sticking to the few spaces they fit in to do a task. If you want to use Banshees solely for tying stuff up, that's fine....a very tournament way of looking at the unit but fine.

in fairness should "pansy space elves" have a CC with the raw hitting power of a space marine or Ork?

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 21:31:58

Post by: Daedalus81

That's where I think is pays to be aggressive against aggressors and cents. Any successor will remove any chance to charge them without overwatch block. Sallies will hide them behind the anti-targeting stratagem. White Scars can drop them on your head. Ultras and IH will move them in your face as if they never moved.

And then there's T'au.

Maybe I read the tables wrong, but there were a stuuuuuuuuupid amount of Assault Centurions with flamers floating around. I figure they want to exploit that 4 wound break-point against D3 weapons instead of hanging onto Aggressors.

Reply by: Xenomancers - click to view full reply 

91128

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 21:34:22

Post by: Xenomancers

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Also paragon saber? Lol. SS exarchs can have a S8 Ap-4 D2 weapon. I haven't done the math but if three spears don't murk 5 intercwssors I done know what else you need.

I was thinking more along the lines of Aggressors sitting at 3 wounds. D2 requires twice as many attacks, but I keep forgetting that they're S3 so even with Doom probably no bueno.

Spears kill things dead, but if they need to be at 9" or 12" when facing down a pile of flamers they might wish for Banshees.

My personal opinion is that ignore overwatch is a dumb ability that shouldn't exist or just be limited to activations against 1 unit. With the way pile ins work and you being able to declare charges against everything in range...it is a very overpowered ability. It doesn't make banshees good enough though. They require too much to make them work...they need a serpent, and quicken because no one starts on the line at 24" line dunces. Quicken works better on other units.

If you want to shut down overwatch - take a solitare with the ignore overwatch relic.

Reply by: Not Online!!! - click to view full reply 

119289

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 21:35:50

Post by: Not Online!!!

BrianDavion wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
If you find yourself in a situation where you need to charge Aggressors...you're already in trouble. The Eldar do not have a single "mega" close combat unit. They haven't all edition. They have nothing that touches the efficiency of a Ork boyz unit, nothing that touches the pure damage output of a Bloodletter bomb, nothing that touches the madness of a Berzerker unit fighting 2-3 times, etc.

Spears are a great unit...but 36 points for a model as tough as a basic Primaris marine means you'll never field them in suitably large numbers. They have very strong attacks, but few of them (and die when stuck into combat if they don't win on the first charge). Maybe Wraithblades come closest, if teamed with the Ghost detachment from Vigilus...maybe?

Aspect Warriors only work in mixed company, sticking to the few spaces they fit in to do a task. If you want to use Banshees solely for tying stuff up, that's fine....a very tournament way of looking at the unit but fine.

in fairness should "pansy space elves" have a CC with the raw hitting power of a space marine or Ork?

Yes if they pay for it absolutely.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 22:03:36

Post by: Daedalus81

 Xenomancers wrote:

If you want to shut down overwatch - take a solitare with the ignore overwatch relic.

Gah. That's seems pretty costly all its own.

Reply by: the_scotsman - click to view full reply 

35310

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 23:17:02

Post by: the_scotsman

Hey, if we see Eldar players busting out the banshees to break the stranglehold of the new 11" flamer meta I'll be happy as a clam, but it serms the assertion here is "hey man, is your 130 point unit not capable of killing a min tac squad of intercessors or a guard squad? Well don't fret yall just take a second 120pt unit of spears to do that murdering job!

What, you say? Shooting units do that job with zero risk and from across the map, and the enemy doesn't get free shots at them for no reason before they get to randomly roll to determine whether they accomplish anything at all, they just roll the gunsy dice and the thing is gone?"

Reply by: Imateria - click to view full reply 

98904

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/04 23:21:11

Post by: Imateria

PenitentJake wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I dunno. I just get the feeling that blocking overwatch is a crucial ability coupled with reliable charges is a handy tool to have. Banshees and Spears are like a one two punch -- the 3 damage paragon sabre is perfect for tackling aggressors and you don't need CP spend to keep the original ability.

This is it right here. Advance + the 15 inch charge gets you in HTH turn 1 without overwatch; once you're in HTH, all the other units can charge because you've locked up the overwatch. I don't have as much experience playing as must of Dakka, so I may still be getting something wrong. But if I had an HTH unit I couldn't risk losing to overwatch as I charged, I would use Banshees to lock up the target before I charged in with the unit which was the real threat.

When Dakka assesses the effectiveness of a unit, they tend to use an either/ or model. I use a both/ and model.

Example: Striking scorpions are better than Banshees because x. Whereas I would say that Scorpions are even better when they have Banshees with them, because the Banshees charge in first in order to tie up over watchers.

Kinda like "Morale doesn't mean anything"... Unitl I park 20 footslogging sisters on an objective, and use AoF's for immunity to morale. But if I never tried that strategy, it's easy to believe that morale meaningless.

Like I said though, I freely admit, y'all have probably played more games of 8th than I have, so I acknowledge that I'm standing on shakey ground. I also hate it when people use the word "useless" when they really mean "It isn't as useful as I'd like it to be." If people stopped using this little feat of hyperbole, you'd see me acting as the defender of the unpopular a lot less. To argue that Banshees could be better? No problem- that's certainly true. To argue that Banshees are useless? Little harder to sell.

Your Banshees will only make that turn 1 charge if you roll nothing but 6's, averages say you wont reach your opponents deployment zone. But on the off hand you do make it, congratulations, you've just outrun the rest of your army, will fail to kill anything because they're banshees, and your target will then fall back in their turn whilst the rest of their army sneezes at the banshees and destroyes them. The alternative is to keep them back and wait for the rest of your combat units to get into position first, but now you have to fins ways to survive at least 1 round of shooting.

No Banshees do not make Scorpions better, Psykers and Autarchs make Scorpions better.

You've just proved why moral doesn't matter, not why it does.

Reply by: Elbows - click to view full reply 

29836

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 00:10:34

Post by: Elbows

BrianDavion wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
If you find yourself in a situation where you need to charge Aggressors...you're already in trouble. The Eldar do not have a single "mega" close combat unit. They haven't all edition. They have nothing that touches the efficiency of a Ork boyz unit, nothing that touches the pure damage output of a Bloodletter bomb, nothing that touches the madness of a Berzerker unit fighting 2-3 times, etc.

Spears are a great unit...but 36 points for a model as tough as a basic Primaris marine means you'll never field them in suitably large numbers. They have very strong attacks, but few of them (and die when stuck into combat if they don't win on the first charge). Maybe Wraithblades come closest, if teamed with the Ghost detachment from Vigilus...maybe?

Aspect Warriors only work in mixed company, sticking to the few spaces they fit in to do a task. If you want to use Banshees solely for tying stuff up, that's fine....a very tournament way of looking at the unit but fine.

in fairness should "pansy space elves" have a CC with the raw hitting power of a space marine or Ork?

Should a big, slow, stupid Ork boy have more attacks than a Space Elf dedicated to the art of close combat? No. That Ork boy also has as many attacks as a Space Marine captain while we're at it (oh and he's what...7 points? Half the cost of a Howling Banshee?). Lore-wise, yes a Howling Banshee squad should dice up an Ork mob with little to no issue. In game terms that's not the case at all. Even a basic Primaris marine has more attacks than a Howling Banshee.

Banshees would almost be fixed with simply three attacks a model. This edition is all about either swinging a big dick thunder hammer and crushing knights/vehicles/monsters...or throwing (in some cases, literally) hundreds of attacks so that your opponent simply withers to nothing. Banshees do neither of these things. The last time they were strong was 2nd edition, and that was only because power weapons had their own strength (Strength 5 for a power sword, by the way), and initiative mattered (a benefit the entire Eldar race lost with 8th edition essentially).

We know the game doesn't represent the lore, but it's basically always been that a Space Marine would be a dead match for an Aspect Warrior - both of whom would be light years ahead of the average Ork, etc.

Are there worse units than Howling Banshees? Sure, somewhere in the game. My point is simply that they gained nothing from this book...and oddly they're the featured unit/new model. That's all. It's weird and a shame. Some people who don't run them because they don't like finecast/metal might pick up the new plastics and they're in for a rude awakening when they try to field them.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 00:34:36

Post by: Daedalus81

the_scotsman wrote:
"hey man, is your 130 point unit not capable of killing a min tac squad of intercessors or a guard squad? Well don't fret yall just take a second 120pt unit of spears to do that murdering job!

What, you say? Shooting units do that job with zero risk and from across the map, and the enemy doesn't get free shots at them for no reason before they get to randomly roll to determine whether they accomplish anything at all, they just roll the gunsy dice and the thing is gone?"

That's not what was said. Also, the banshees are fully capable of taking on Intercessors and IS. I don't know where that hyperbole is coming from. The spears are there to take on hard targets.

Are you still taking Spears? If so, how do you expect to shoot or even charge with them against some of the marine lists?

Reply by: bullyboy - click to view full reply 

85390

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 04:06:35

Post by: bullyboy

 Elbows wrote:
If you find yourself in a situation where you need to charge Aggressors...you're already in trouble. The Eldar do not have a single "mega" close combat unit. They haven't all edition. They have nothing that touches the efficiency of a Ork boyz unit, nothing that touches the pure damage output of a Bloodletter bomb, nothing that touches the madness of a Berzerker unit fighting 2-3 times, etc.

Spears are a great unit...but 36 points for a model as tough as a basic Primaris marine means you'll never field them in suitably large numbers. They have very strong attacks, but few of them (and die when stuck into combat if they don't win on the first charge). Maybe Wraithblades come closest, if teamed with the Ghost detachment from Vigilus...maybe?

Aspect Warriors only work in mixed company, sticking to the few spaces they fit in to do a task. If you want to use Banshees solely for tying stuff up, that's fine....a very tournament way of looking at the unit but fine.

was going to say Wraithblades, in Vigilus using the +1 attack strat.

It really is odd though, brand new models led by a brand new Phx Lord, and yet they don't do anything to improve either unit.

Reply by: PenitentJake - click to view full reply 

120048

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 04:24:04

Post by: PenitentJake

 Imateria wrote:

Your Banshees will only make that turn 1 charge if you roll nothing but 6's, averages say you wont reach your opponents deployment zone. But on the off hand you do make it, congratulations, you've just outrun the rest of your army, will fail to kill anything because they're banshees, and your target will then fall back in their turn whilst the rest of their army sneezes at the banshees and destroyes them. The alternative is to keep them back and wait for the rest of your combat units to get into position first, but now you have to fins ways to survive at least 1 round of shooting.

No Banshees do not make Scorpions better, Psykers and Autarchs make Scorpions better.

You've just proved why moral doesn't matter, not why it does.

First of all, sorry about piling on in that post- the whole morale thing was actually a response to a separate comment and shouldn't have been included in the argument.

And yeah, I'm not saying Banshees are awesome, I'm just saying they aren't garbage. And you're right about them outpacing the army- they hit so fast, that no one else can benefit from the overwatch denial, except maybe Shining Spears.

Regarding the first turn charge phenomenon, the threat range is 14-29". That puts the average at 20".
If you go with Saim-Hann, you reroll charges.
If you go Biel-Tan, you get access to the Court of the Young King for +2 charge, but that's a two point strat.
I really like Aspect Warriors, so personally, I'd take two of the new traits- Headstrong for +1 on the charge and Children of Khaine so that every unmodified 6 to hit in melee does 2 damage.

Anyway, that's kind of over the top, but because I build armies one kill team at a time, an army of Aspects make sense. I was stoked that DA are troops- I always thought they were elites.

Reply by: Slayer-Fan123 - click to view full reply 

90435

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 06:10:24

Post by: Slayer-Fan123

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Also paragon saber? Lol. SS exarchs can have a S8 Ap-4 D2 weapon. I haven't done the math but if three spears don't murk 5 intercwssors I done know what else you need.

I was thinking more along the lines of Aggressors sitting at 3 wounds. D2 requires twice as many attacks, but I keep forgetting that they're S3 so even with Doom probably no bueno.

Spears kill things dead, but if they need to be at 9" or 12" when facing down a pile of flamers they might wish for Banshees.

Seeing as the Overwatch wouldn't be that dangerous unless the opponent was running 4+ of them in the same squad, your defense for Banshees is pretty awful so far.

Reply by: Marin - click to view full reply 

120890

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 08:02:20

Post by: Marin

PenitentJake wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I dunno. I just get the feeling that blocking overwatch is a crucial ability coupled with reliable charges is a handy tool to have. Banshees and Spears are like a one two punch -- the 3 damage paragon sabre is perfect for tackling aggressors and you don't need CP spend to keep the original ability.

This is it right here. Advance + the 15 inch charge gets you in HTH turn 1 without overwatch; once you're in HTH, all the other units can charge because you've locked up the overwatch. I don't have as much experience playing as must of Dakka, so I may still be getting something wrong. But if I had an HTH unit I couldn't risk losing to overwatch as I charged, I would use Banshees to lock up the target before I charged in with the unit which was the real threat.

When Dakka assesses the effectiveness of a unit, they tend to use an either/ or model. I use a both/ and model.

Example: Striking scorpions are better than Banshees because x. Whereas I would say that Scorpions are even better when they have Banshees with them, because the Banshees charge in first in order to tie up over watchers.

Kinda like "Morale doesn't mean anything"... Unitl I park 20 footslogging sisters on an objective, and use AoF's for immunity to morale. But if I never tried that strategy, it's easy to believe that morale meaningless.

Like I said though, I freely admit, y'all have probably played more games of 8th than I have, so I acknowledge that I'm standing on shakey ground. I also hate it when people use the word "useless" when they really mean "It isn't as useful as I'd like it to be." If people stopped using this little feat of hyperbole, you'd see me acting as the defender of the unpopular a lot less. To argue that Banshees could be better? No problem- that's certainly true. To argue that Banshees are useless? Little harder to sell.

If you can use index it`s better to use Autarch, since he can`t be shoot first turn. I created alot of list with banshees and they need wave seprent not to just get shoot down for LOS fire first turn.
So my list end without enough shooting or without unit that can use the no OW. Banshees don`t have fly, so it`s easy for every opponent to screen them, wrapping units like intercessors is just useless, when some captain can come and clear the banshees and spears for free.
Banshees are supposed to kill MEQS and now they just can`t, because of the lack of strength and damage. The 5++ and -1 to hit only in melee is not helping the matter, at least make it in shooting also, so they can annoy the opponent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
If you find yourself in a situation where you need to charge Aggressors...you're already in trouble. The Eldar do not have a single "mega" close combat unit. They haven't all edition. They have nothing that touches the efficiency of a Ork boyz unit, nothing that touches the pure damage output of a Bloodletter bomb, nothing that touches the madness of a Berzerker unit fighting 2-3 times, etc.

Spears are a great unit...but 36 points for a model as tough as a basic Primaris marine means you'll never field them in suitably large numbers. They have very strong attacks, but few of them (and die when stuck into combat if they don't win on the first charge). Maybe Wraithblades come closest, if teamed with the Ghost detachment from Vigilus...maybe?

Aspect Warriors only work in mixed company, sticking to the few spaces they fit in to do a task. If you want to use Banshees solely for tying stuff up, that's fine....a very tournament way of looking at the unit but fine.

in fairness should "pansy space elves" have a CC with the raw hitting power of a space marine or Ork?

Yes because the lore say they do. Elfs are supposed to be stronger and tougher than normal humans.

Reply by: An Actual Englishman - click to view full reply 

117801

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 08:29:36

Post by: An Actual Englishman

I don’t know why this topic has deviated so much from the original premise.

Banshees are poorly designed, underperforming units. If they get a points drop they might be viable but GW had a great opportunity with Phoenix Rising and squandered it. If they are supposed Meq killers why didn’t GW give them a rule like ‘if this units attacks are used against an infantry model with a 3+ save or better, they always wound on a roll of 4+, regardless of any modifiers’. Or just make their swords give +1 strength. Power swords on str 3 models are useless.

But it’s not just about the rules, GW clearly put less thought and effort into Phoenix Rising compared to the Marine supplements. As has been said - much of the art is old, there are pages of old rules and data sheets reprinted and the rules are not only lacklustre but also largely boring and uninspired. That is the real shame here.

Reply by: Slayer-Fan123 - click to view full reply 

90435

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 08:38:05

Post by: Slayer-Fan123

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don’t know why this topic has deviated so much from the original premise.

Banshees are poorly designed, underperforming units. If they get a points drop they might be viable but GW had a great opportunity with Phoenix Rising and squandered it. If they are supposed Meq killers why didn’t GW give them a rule like ‘if this units attacks are used against an infantry model with a 3+ save or better, they always wound on a roll of 4+, regardless of any modifiers’. Or just make their swords give +1 strength. Power swords on str 3 models are useless.

But it’s not just about the rules, GW clearly put less thought and effort into Phoenix Rising compared to the Marine supplements. As has been said - much of the art is old, there are pages of old rules and data sheets reprinted and the rules are not only lacklustre but also largely boring and uninspired. That is the real shame here.

GW didn't put thought into the Marine supplements either. It's just on the opposite end.
"What about super doctrines?"
"Yeah sure whatever have it done next Friday!"
Nothing like that should've gone beyond the brainstorming table and that's it.

Reply by: Not Online!!! - click to view full reply 

119289

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 08:46:11

Post by: Not Online!!!

Conceptually the super doctrines aren't bad though, the issue is more that they are comparativly nuts.

Further, GW could've finally enforced that allies need to take the according detachment, that would've also sorted some issues.

But the super doctrines as is right now are just way too advantagous.

Reply by: An Actual Englishman - click to view full reply 

117801

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 09:02:52

Post by: An Actual Englishman

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don’t know why this topic has deviated so much from the original premise.

Banshees are poorly designed, underperforming units. If they get a points drop they might be viable but GW had a great opportunity with Phoenix Rising and squandered it. If they are supposed Meq killers why didn’t GW give them a rule like ‘if this units attacks are used against an infantry model with a 3+ save or better, they always wound on a roll of 4+, regardless of any modifiers’. Or just make their swords give +1 strength. Power swords on str 3 models are useless.

But it’s not just about the rules, GW clearly put less thought and effort into Phoenix Rising compared to the Marine supplements. As has been said - much of the art is old, there are pages of old rules and data sheets reprinted and the rules are not only lacklustre but also largely boring and uninspired. That is the real shame here.

GW didn't put thought into the Marine supplements either. It's just on the opposite end.
"What about super doctrines?"
"Yeah sure whatever have it done next Friday!"
Nothing like that should've gone beyond the brainstorming table and that's it.

Oh I disagree. I think they put a LOT of thought about how heir rules might encourage the purchase of certain models see - Iron Father Brokenios.

What they didn't think about was balance and on that you're absolutely correct.

Reply by: Not Online!!! - click to view full reply 

119289

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 09:07:06

Post by: Not Online!!!

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/7k1tp0/im_james_m_hewitt_freelance_tabletop_games/drb6ka0/

The balance could be two things, A they didn't care and just want to sell through rule of cool. B they want to sell by willfully breaking stuff.

Reply by: Tyranid Horde - click to view full reply 

20609

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 09:12:53

Post by: Tyranid Horde

Banshees weren't good to start with and they're not a lot better with additional rules. I can't believe there was an actual discussion about whether they're good.

An Actual Englishman, Marin and the_scotsman sum up my views pretty nicely on this matter.

Reply by: vipoid - click to view full reply 

53939

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 09:44:06

Post by: vipoid

 Xenomancers wrote:

My personal opinion is that ignore overwatch is a dumb ability that shouldn't exist

Funny, I'd say the same thing about Overwatch.

Reply by: Klickor - click to view full reply 

124190

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 10:42:47

Post by: Klickor

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

My personal opinion is that ignore overwatch is a dumb ability that shouldn't exist

Funny, I'd say the same thing about Overwatch.

Overwatch against the average BS3 unit without any buffs is fine I think. They usually rely on quality shots so them hitting on 6s make them only 1/4th as accurate as a normal shooting phase. But when you add in rerolls, exploding 6s or hitting on 4s/5s, or units that already had bad BS but a large amount of shots, the overwatching unit basically gets a second shooting phase. And if they kill the first target they might even kill the second charging unit as well since they arent even limited to 1 overwatch per turn.

Units like ork boys and plaguebearers can soak a few casualties with no problem but what about 5-10 man squads? Smaller elite units run a real risk of getting wiped when charging knights, AM tanks, Iron Hand, Tau before even getting in to close combat. Many of them can even kill a charging rhino or dreadnought on OW alone. So without ignore overwatch abilities charging would be impossible sometimes unless there are ruins everywhere! 5 tac marines shooting overwatch is one thing but how do you charge a leviathan that hits on 4s with full rerolls to hit and reroll 1s to wound unless you have a 20 model + unit in your codex if they removed "ignore overwatch"?

Reply by: Marin - click to view full reply 

120890

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 10:58:16

Post by: Marin

Klickor wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

My personal opinion is that ignore overwatch is a dumb ability that shouldn't exist

Funny, I'd say the same thing about Overwatch.

Overwatch against the average BS3 unit without any buffs is fine I think. They usually rely on quality shots so them hitting on 6s make them only 1/4th as accurate as a normal shooting phase. But when you add in rerolls, exploding 6s or hitting on 4s/5s, or units that already had bad BS but a large amount of shots, the overwatching unit basically gets a second shooting phase. And if they kill the first target they might even kill the second charging unit as well since they arent even limited to 1 overwatch per turn.

Units like ork boys and plaguebearers can soak a few casualties with no problem but what about 5-10 man squads? Smaller elite units run a real risk of getting wiped when charging knights, AM tanks, Iron Hand, Tau before even getting in to close combat. Many of them can even kill a charging rhino or dreadnought on OW alone. So without ignore overwatch abilities charging would be impossible sometimes unless there are ruins everywhere! 5 tac marines shooting overwatch is one thing but how do you charge a leviathan that hits on 4s with full rerolls to hit and reroll 1s to wound unless you have a 20 model + unit in your codex if they removed "ignore overwatch"?

OW design is questionable when you have in mind how melee is performing. Still Tao and new SM are the reason it looks like real issue.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 12:36:19

Post by: Daedalus81

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Also paragon saber? Lol. SS exarchs can have a S8 Ap-4 D2 weapon. I haven't done the math but if three spears don't murk 5 intercwssors I done know what else you need.

I was thinking more along the lines of Aggressors sitting at 3 wounds. D2 requires twice as many attacks, but I keep forgetting that they're S3 so even with Doom probably no bueno.

Spears kill things dead, but if they need to be at 9" or 12" when facing down a pile of flamers they might wish for Banshees.

Seeing as the Overwatch wouldn't be that dangerous unless the opponent was running 4+ of them in the same squad, your defense for Banshees is pretty awful so far.

So you're not looking at the SoCal lists, either? K.

You're 6-0 with marines right now, right? Played any eldar?

Reply by: Marin - click to view full reply 

120890

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 13:00:37

Post by: Marin

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Also paragon saber? Lol. SS exarchs can have a S8 Ap-4 D2 weapon. I haven't done the math but if three spears don't murk 5 intercwssors I done know what else you need.

I was thinking more along the lines of Aggressors sitting at 3 wounds. D2 requires twice as many attacks, but I keep forgetting that they're S3 so even with Doom probably no bueno.

Spears kill things dead, but if they need to be at 9" or 12" when facing down a pile of flamers they might wish for Banshees.

Seeing as the Overwatch wouldn't be that dangerous unless the opponent was running 4+ of them in the same squad, your defense for Banshees is pretty awful so far.

So you're not looking at the SoCal lists, either? K.

You're 6-0 with marines right now, right? Played any eldar?

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

Reply by: Gir Spirit Bane - click to view full reply 

122126

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 13:14:02

Post by: Gir Spirit Bane

 Xenomancers wrote:
My personal opinion is that ignore overwatch is a dumb ability that shouldn't exist or just be limited to activations against 1 unit.

My personal opinion is that being able to fall back for free without taking any form of 'overwatch' like melee attacks in return and leaving the attackers who have had to hike up the board, getting shot at, declare a charge, and get shot at and THEN pass a charge roll just for the chance to do damage vs a unit which can sit back and plink of shots all day and even then may be able to fall back and shoot (Looking at you UM...) the next turn, leaving you a wide open target.

40k has always been a shooting game yes, but this edition melee has been punished increasingly hard, especially with the new fallback rules and VERY few units being able to lock you in combat. How on earth can you just slink away without the melee attackers who are literally on top of you not getting some parting hits off?! And then say negating overwatch is a dumb ability when it's something melee based armies have to deal with and there is no melee equivalent for you to worry about.

Reply by: Stevefamine - click to view full reply 

88921

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 13:33:18

Post by: Stevefamine

This is unfortunate. Never expected this thread. Didnt read it yet

Reply by: Slayer-Fan123 - click to view full reply 

90435

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 14:36:17

Post by: Slayer-Fan123

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don’t know why this topic has deviated so much from the original premise.

Banshees are poorly designed, underperforming units. If they get a points drop they might be viable but GW had a great opportunity with Phoenix Rising and squandered it. If they are supposed Meq killers why didn’t GW give them a rule like ‘if this units attacks are used against an infantry model with a 3+ save or better, they always wound on a roll of 4+, regardless of any modifiers’. Or just make their swords give +1 strength. Power swords on str 3 models are useless.

But it’s not just about the rules, GW clearly put less thought and effort into Phoenix Rising compared to the Marine supplements. As has been said - much of the art is old, there are pages of old rules and data sheets reprinted and the rules are not only lacklustre but also largely boring and uninspired. That is the real shame here.

GW didn't put thought into the Marine supplements either. It's just on the opposite end.
"What about super doctrines?"
"Yeah sure whatever have it done next Friday!"
Nothing like that should've gone beyond the brainstorming table and that's it.

Oh I disagree. I think they put a LOT of thought about how heir rules might encourage the purchase of certain models see - Iron Father Brokenios.

What they didn't think about was balance and on that you're absolutely correct.

The Iron Father might have been 15-20 points undercosted but he was definitely not broken in any way.
And yeah that's basically what I meant with the "thought" put into the rules, thanks for understanding!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Also paragon saber? Lol. SS exarchs can have a S8 Ap-4 D2 weapon. I haven't done the math but if three spears don't murk 5 intercwssors I done know what else you need.

I was thinking more along the lines of Aggressors sitting at 3 wounds. D2 requires twice as many attacks, but I keep forgetting that they're S3 so even with Doom probably no bueno.

Spears kill things dead, but if they need to be at 9" or 12" when facing down a pile of flamers they might wish for Banshees.

Seeing as the Overwatch wouldn't be that dangerous unless the opponent was running 4+ of them in the same squad, your defense for Banshees is pretty awful so far.

So you're not looking at the SoCal lists, either? K.

You're 6-0 with marines right now, right? Played any eldar?

Yeah, two games with one using the "new and improved" Banshees, and I live near SoCal. No, I don't fear someone using Banshees whatsoever as a Raven Guard player, and I'll likely fear them less as I try out variations of Ultramarines and Imperial Fists

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 14:44:37

Post by: Daedalus81

Marin wrote:

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

No, but I'm curious about his list and experiences.

It's pretty clear people don't like using melee units that aren't point and click like Spears. It isn't that Banshees are bad. It's that no one wants to bother dealing with the difficulties of melee. Banshees being 3A won't change that.

Marine units would kill for advance / charge with a +3 / no overwatch / -1 to be hit in melee, but they can carry thunderhammers and it would be broken as gak wouldn't it? Can you imagine VV like that?

Reply by: Xenomancers - click to view full reply 

91128

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 14:45:51

Post by: Xenomancers

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

If you want to shut down overwatch - take a solitare with the ignore overwatch relic.

Gah. That's seems pretty costly all its own.

Solitare is cheap man.

Reply by: Not Online!!! - click to view full reply 

119289

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 14:48:58

Post by: Not Online!!!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

No, but I'm curious about his list and experiences.

It's pretty clear people don't like using melee units that aren't point and click like Spears. It isn't that Banshees are bad. It's that no one wants to bother dealing with the difficulties of melee. Banshees being 3A won't change that.

Marine units would kill for advance / charge with a +3 / no overwatch / -1 to be hit in melee, but they can carry thunderhammers and it would be broken as gak wouldn't it? Can you imagine VV like that?

Whilest the hammer boys are nice and all considering warptalons have also an inbuilt no overwatch mechanic, are daemons (e.g. SHENANIGANS ARE READY), come with a jumppack aswell.
I kinda doubt that, of course marines have more delivery methods, but Chaos got charge reroll aswell.
And we don't really see warptalons because they pay too much for to little.
In a way Melee units need to be point and click, or able to tie down something indefinately to be "worth it".
Point and click because the unit tends to be a glass cannon. Or massed enough that a unit serves to constrict the enemies reactions via existence on 25 / 32 mm bases.

Reply by: Burnage - click to view full reply 

112260

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 14:50:51

Post by: Burnage

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

No, but I'm curious about his list and experiences.

It's pretty clear people don't like using melee units that aren't point and click like Spears. It isn't that Banshees are bad. It's that no one wants to bother dealing with the difficulties of melee. Banshees being 3A won't change that.

Marine units would kill for advance / charge with a +3 / no overwatch / -1 to be hit in melee, but they can carry thunderhammers and it would be broken as gak wouldn't it? Can you imagine VV like that?

I don't think anybody denies that parts of the Banshee's kit are very strong. The stumbling block for them is always S3 A2; that just doesn't cut it for an Elite melee unit if they want to deal damage, and they're not tough enough to work as a decent tarpit.

Reply by: Gene St. Ealer - click to view full reply 

103063

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 14:50:55

Post by: Gene St. Ealer

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

No, but I'm curious about his list and experiences.

It's pretty clear people don't like using melee units that aren't point and click like Spears. It isn't that Banshees are bad. It's that no one wants to bother dealing with the difficulties of melee. Banshees being 3A won't change that.

Marine units would kill for advance / charge with a +3 / no overwatch / -1 to be hit in melee, but they can carry thunderhammers and it would be broken as gak wouldn't it? Can you imagine VV like that?

1. Banshees are bad.
2. It's hilarious to mention point and click in a thread where you then compare Banshees to Marines.

This is just a bad take, Daedalus. I know you like to theorycraft and sometimes you hit onto some really interesting ideas, but in this case, there's plenty of credence to the conventional wisdom. You wanna light it up with Banshees? Be my guest, I'd love to see it happen. But lots of people have tried and they're not winning these games.

Reply by: Xenomancers - click to view full reply 

91128

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 14:52:11

Post by: Xenomancers

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

My personal opinion is that ignore overwatch is a dumb ability that shouldn't exist

Funny, I'd say the same thing about Overwatch.

Overwatch can be frustrating sometimes but one unit with ignore overwatch can cause your whole army to get locked up without ever firing a shot in overwatch. It's just silly IMO. Typically overwatch does very little damage anyways but sometimes can be game changing. By compariosn though - there aren't any rules that give you "ignore shooting" or "ignore melee".

Reply by: Slayer-Fan123 - click to view full reply 

90435

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 14:52:24

Post by: Slayer-Fan123

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

If you want to shut down overwatch - take a solitare with the ignore overwatch relic.

Gah. That's seems pretty costly all its own.

Solitare is cheap man.

Cheap AND deadly. There's also one Masque faction that has an ignoring Overwatch strat too so you can get your shredding relic that hurts infantry units with D3 instead of DD3.

Reply by: Tyranid Horde - click to view full reply 

20609

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 14:56:44

Post by: Tyranid Horde

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

No, but I'm curious about his list and experiences.

It's pretty clear people don't like using melee units that aren't point and click like Spears. It isn't that Banshees are bad. It's that no one wants to bother dealing with the difficulties of melee. Banshees being 3A won't change that.

Marine units would kill for advance / charge with a +3 / no overwatch / -1 to be hit in melee, but they can carry thunderhammers and it would be broken as gak wouldn't it? Can you imagine VV like that?

For a bit of fun I've been taking Banshees pre-PA and post-PA and they've really not changed substantially. Banshees are pretty terrible to the point where bringing them for fun isn't fun and they're a massive liability. You really can't explain it away with "you're using them wrong". A certain favourite individual on this board said that about Reivers but at least they're more viable than Banshees.
Getting banshees to get into combat is difficult and it's especially difficult tarpitting anything decent if your opponent can screen with chaff. First turn charges are not realistic and even if you make the low odds chance of charging you won't be able to tripoint effectively.
No overwatch is wonderful but who cares if you're charging a guard squad? They don't, they've done their job as a screen.

Shining Spears take a bit of skill to be fully effective, you can't just straight line them.

Reply by: Xenomancers - click to view full reply 

91128

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 15:07:19

Post by: Xenomancers

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

If you want to shut down overwatch - take a solitare with the ignore overwatch relic.

Gah. That's seems pretty costly all its own.

Solitare is cheap man.

Cheap AND deadly. There's also one Masque faction that has an ignoring Overwatch strat too so you can get your shredding relic that hurts infantry units with D3 instead of DD3.

Totally. Probably hits harder than 2 units of banshee. Gets to combat much easier without need of a serpent. Has a standard 3++. Character protection. Banshee are GARBAGE.

Reply by: vipoid - click to view full reply 

53939

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 15:11:59

Post by: vipoid

Klickor wrote:

Overwatch against the average BS3 unit without any buffs is fine I think. They usually rely on quality shots so them hitting on 6s make them only 1/4th as accurate as a normal shooting phase. But when you add in rerolls, exploding 6s or hitting on 4s/5s, or units that already had bad BS but a large amount of shots, the overwatching unit basically gets a second shooting phase. And if they kill the first target they might even kill the second charging unit as well since they arent even limited to 1 overwatch per turn.

Units like ork boys and plaguebearers can soak a few casualties with no problem but what about 5-10 man squads? Smaller elite units run a real risk of getting wiped when charging knights, AM tanks, Iron Hand, Tau before even getting in to close combat. Many of them can even kill a charging rhino or dreadnought on OW alone. So without ignore overwatch abilities charging would be impossible sometimes unless there are ruins everywhere! 5 tac marines shooting overwatch is one thing but how do you charge a leviathan that hits on 4s with full rerolls to hit and reroll 1s to wound unless you have a 20 model + unit in your codex if they removed "ignore overwatch"?

Just to clarify, my issue with Overwatch isn't that it's too strong. My issue is that 90% of the time it's just a time-wasting mechanic. It does nothing but make the game drag on as any and all charge rolls necessitate rolling a bunch of dice in the hope that a tiny fraction of them might actually accomplish something. And even when they do, it's not rewarding skill or tactics but sheer dumb luck.

IMO Overwatch should be made at something like -1BS but should then require that the Overwatching unit skip its next shooting phase (or something to that effect). In essence, make it an actual choice with consequences - not just an automatic event with no cost whatsoever.

Sorry, I know I'm getting off topic but Overwatch is something of a bugbear of mine.

Reply by: Slipspace - click to view full reply 

109034

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 15:16:30

Post by: Slipspace

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

No, but I'm curious about his list and experiences.

It's pretty clear people don't like using melee units that aren't point and click like Spears. It isn't that Banshees are bad. It's that no one wants to bother dealing with the difficulties of melee. Banshees being 3A won't change that.

Marine units would kill for advance / charge with a +3 / no overwatch / -1 to be hit in melee, but they can carry thunderhammers and it would be broken as gak wouldn't it? Can you imagine VV like that?

So there's a "point and click" unit in the Codex that fulfils the same role as Banshees, better. That's a design failure. You might have a point if there was some hidden nuance that made Banshees better than their stat-line suggests. But there isn't. This idea that you just have to learn how to use these "expert" units is usually a load of rubbish, frankly. It seems to be the same here. If there's actually a hidden, not-so-obvious way to utilise Banshees that makes them good why not explain it rather than hiding behind a vague idea of hidden depths?

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 15:16:43

Post by: Daedalus81

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

No, but I'm curious about his list and experiences.

It's pretty clear people don't like using melee units that aren't point and click like Spears. It isn't that Banshees are bad. It's that no one wants to bother dealing with the difficulties of melee. Banshees being 3A won't change that.

Marine units would kill for advance / charge with a +3 / no overwatch / -1 to be hit in melee, but they can carry thunderhammers and it would be broken as gak wouldn't it? Can you imagine VV like that?

For a bit of fun I've been taking Banshees pre-PA and post-PA and they've really not changed substantially. Banshees are pretty terrible to the point where bringing them for fun isn't fun and they're a massive liability. You really can't explain it away with "you're using them wrong".
Getting banshees to get into combat is difficult and it's especially difficult tarpitting anything decent if your opponent can screen with chaff. First turn charges are not realistic and even if you make the low odds chance of charging you won't be able to tripoint effectively.
No overwatch is wonderful but who cares if you're charging a guard squad? They don't, they've done their job as a screen.

Shining Spears take a bit of skill to be fully effective, you can't just straight line them.

I in no way want to imply they've changed for the better or that anyone is using them wrong. I'm just particularly curious about the meta and what people are doing to solve for it. I see a looooot of marines and very little Eldar right now.

Do I want to deepstrike JZ, Asurmen, and 30 Banshees w/ +4 to charge for 6 CP? Maybe follow up with an Autarch Skyrunner with the 6" +1 AP in melee bubble. Hell yes, I do. Not, because I think it will be absolutely devastating, but because its fun.

Some days you just want to melee the gak out of things.

Reply by: Tyranid Horde - click to view full reply 

20609

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 15:26:15

Post by: Tyranid Horde

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

No, but I'm curious about his list and experiences.

It's pretty clear people don't like using melee units that aren't point and click like Spears. It isn't that Banshees are bad. It's that no one wants to bother dealing with the difficulties of melee. Banshees being 3A won't change that.

Marine units would kill for advance / charge with a +3 / no overwatch / -1 to be hit in melee, but they can carry thunderhammers and it would be broken as gak wouldn't it? Can you imagine VV like that?

For a bit of fun I've been taking Banshees pre-PA and post-PA and they've really not changed substantially. Banshees are pretty terrible to the point where bringing them for fun isn't fun and they're a massive liability. You really can't explain it away with "you're using them wrong".
Getting banshees to get into combat is difficult and it's especially difficult tarpitting anything decent if your opponent can screen with chaff. First turn charges are not realistic and even if you make the low odds chance of charging you won't be able to tripoint effectively.
No overwatch is wonderful but who cares if you're charging a guard squad? They don't, they've done their job as a screen.

Shining Spears take a bit of skill to be fully effective, you can't just straight line them.

I in no way want to imply they've changed for the better or that anyone is using them wrong. I'm just particularly curious about the meta and what people are doing to solve for it. I see a looooot of marines and very little Eldar right now.

Do I want to deepstrike JZ, Asurmen, and 30 Banshees w/ +4 to charge for 6 CP? Maybe follow up with an Autarch Skyrunner with the 6" +1 AP in melee bubble. Hell yes, I do. Not, because I think it will be absolutely devastating, but because its fun.

Some days you just want to melee the gak out of things.

My apologies for drawing that conclusion, I drew it from you comment on the difficulties of melee.

I think the spectacle is cool deepstriking banshees into the board or getting that first turn charge which is why I brought them in the first place but when 10 of them deal two wounds to a squad of Intercessors the fun is suddenly a lot less fun when a portion of your army is destroyed in what they're supposed to be good at.

I have had some success with 5 woman squads charging telemons for instance but that was largely due to my opponent making a mistake and you can't rely on that at the top tables.

Reply by: TwinPoleTheory - click to view full reply 

117111

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 15:29:14

Post by: TwinPoleTheory

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I see a looooot of marines and very little Eldar right now.

Occam's Razor says that's because SM is OP a feth right now. I mean, a significant number of tourney regulars flat switched to marines for SCO, for obvious reasons, the results of which were demonstrated very clearly in the results.

Reply by: Gene St. Ealer - click to view full reply 

103063

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 15:38:02

Post by: Gene St. Ealer

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

No, but I'm curious about his list and experiences.

It's pretty clear people don't like using melee units that aren't point and click like Spears. It isn't that Banshees are bad. It's that no one wants to bother dealing with the difficulties of melee. Banshees being 3A won't change that.

Marine units would kill for advance / charge with a +3 / no overwatch / -1 to be hit in melee, but they can carry thunderhammers and it would be broken as gak wouldn't it? Can you imagine VV like that?

For a bit of fun I've been taking Banshees pre-PA and post-PA and they've really not changed substantially. Banshees are pretty terrible to the point where bringing them for fun isn't fun and they're a massive liability. You really can't explain it away with "you're using them wrong".
Getting banshees to get into combat is difficult and it's especially difficult tarpitting anything decent if your opponent can screen with chaff. First turn charges are not realistic and even if you make the low odds chance of charging you won't be able to tripoint effectively.
No overwatch is wonderful but who cares if you're charging a guard squad? They don't, they've done their job as a screen.

Shining Spears take a bit of skill to be fully effective, you can't just straight line them.

I in no way want to imply they've changed for the better or that anyone is using them wrong. I'm just particularly curious about the meta and what people are doing to solve for it. I see a looooot of marines and very little Eldar right now.

Do I want to deepstrike JZ, Asurmen, and 30 Banshees w/ +4 to charge for 6 CP? Maybe follow up with an Autarch Skyrunner with the 6" +1 AP in melee bubble. Hell yes, I do. Not, because I think it will be absolutely devastating, but because its fun.

Some days you just want to melee the gak out of things.

You also can't do that. Webway strike is 1 use only, for 2 units total.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 15:46:11

Post by: Daedalus81

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I see a looooot of marines and very little Eldar right now.

Occam's Razor says that's because SM is OP a feth right now. I mean, a significant number of tourney regulars flat switched to marines for SCO, for obvious reasons, the results of which were demonstrated very clearly in the results.

I don't disagree, but there's also a lot of weird stuff. Assault Cents with flamers? And 12 to 18 of them in lists backed up by eliminator parties? Plenty of lascannons over high ROF low damage options. 3rd place was BA/DW/and RG successors plus more Assault Cents -- a very melee heavy army no less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


You also can't do that. Webway strike is 1 use only, for 2 units total.

You'd need 3 detachments with this:

The Webway Strike Stratagem (see Codex: Craftworlds)
can be used one additional time per battle for
each Detachment (excluding Auxiliary Support
Detachments) in your army that contains units with
this attribute. The second and any subsequent uses of
this Stratagem can only be used to set up units with this
attribute in the webway.

First use is Asurmen and JZ for 3 CP. Then 3 additional uses at 1 CP each.

Reply by: Gene St. Ealer - click to view full reply 

103063

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 15:49:12

Post by: Gene St. Ealer

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


You also can't do that. Webway strike is 1 use only, for 2 units total.

You'd need 3 detachments with this:

The Webway Strike Stratagem (see Codex: Craftworlds)
can be used one additional time per battle for
each Detachment (excluding Auxiliary Support
Detachments) in your army that contains units with
this attribute. The second and any subsequent uses of
this Stratagem can only be used to set up units with this
attribute in the webway.

First use is Asurmen and JZ for 3 CP. Then 3 additional uses at 1 CP each.

Right, mea culpa.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 16:08:22

Post by: Daedalus81

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


Right, mea culpa.

No worries. It'd likely never get used, but its fun to think about.

Reply by: TwinPoleTheory - click to view full reply 

117111

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 16:11:37

Post by: TwinPoleTheory

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't disagree, but there's also a lot of weird stuff. Assault Cents with flamers? And 12 to 18 of them in lists backed up by eliminator parties? Plenty of lascannons over high ROF low damage options. 3rd place was BA/DW/and RG successors plus more Assault Cents -- a very melee heavy army no less.

The 'weird' stuff doesn't change the results. But keep looking for a reason to say GW didn't completely screw the pooch on the new marine stuff, have to push that apologist narrative!

Reply by: Slayer-Fan123 - click to view full reply 

90435

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 16:16:08

Post by: Slayer-Fan123

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

If you want to shut down overwatch - take a solitare with the ignore overwatch relic.

Gah. That's seems pretty costly all its own.

Solitare is cheap man.

Cheap AND deadly. There's also one Masque faction that has an ignoring Overwatch strat too so you can get your shredding relic that hurts infantry units with D3 instead of DD3.

Totally. Probably hits harder than 2 units of banshee. Gets to combat much easier without need of a serpent. Has a standard 3++. Character protection. Banshee are GARBAGE.

You could easily do a Dreaming Shadow Harlequin detachment too to gain access to a Death Jester w/ Curtainfall and a Solitaire w/ the Rose. Add in three 6 man Harlequins w/ Fusion Pistols in those transports and you have a solid lineup to any Eldar force (in my opinion at least).

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 16:18:46

Post by: Daedalus81

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't disagree, but there's also a lot of weird stuff. Assault Cents with flamers? And 12 to 18 of them in lists backed up by eliminator parties? Plenty of lascannons over high ROF low damage options. 3rd place was BA/DW/and RG successors plus more Assault Cents -- a very melee heavy army no less.

The 'weird' stuff doesn't change the results. But keep looking for a reason to say GW didn't completely screw the pooch on the new marine stuff, have to push that apologist narrative!

Yea, this gak right here. God forbid anyone take a regimented and curious approach to something. Get bent, dude. You're fething toxic.

Reply by: Slayer-Fan123 - click to view full reply 

90435

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 16:20:28

Post by: Slayer-Fan123

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't disagree, but there's also a lot of weird stuff. Assault Cents with flamers? And 12 to 18 of them in lists backed up by eliminator parties? Plenty of lascannons over high ROF low damage options. 3rd place was BA/DW/and RG successors plus more Assault Cents -- a very melee heavy army no less.

The 'weird' stuff doesn't change the results. But keep looking for a reason to say GW didn't completely screw the pooch on the new marine stuff, have to push that apologist narrative!

Could you imagine thinking that Banshees were gonna tie up Assault Centurions in any way, shape, or form? Half the Chapters already have ways to fall back and shoot, and dinky D1 Power Swords attacks at S3 against T5 W4 2+?

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 16:23:26

Post by: Daedalus81

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't disagree, but there's also a lot of weird stuff. Assault Cents with flamers? And 12 to 18 of them in lists backed up by eliminator parties? Plenty of lascannons over high ROF low damage options. 3rd place was BA/DW/and RG successors plus more Assault Cents -- a very melee heavy army no less.

The 'weird' stuff doesn't change the results. But keep looking for a reason to say GW didn't completely screw the pooch on the new marine stuff, have to push that apologist narrative!

Could you imagine thinking that Banshees were gonna tie up Assault Centurions in any way, shape, or form? Half the Chapters already have ways to fall back and shoot, and dinky D1 Power Swords attacks at S3 against T5 W4 2+?

Hence my comment about Spears & Banshees. What do you think would happen to Spears charging cents, really?

Reply by: TwinPoleTheory - click to view full reply 

117111

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 16:45:03

Post by: TwinPoleTheory

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea, this gak right here. God forbid anyone take a regimented and curious approach to something. Get bent, dude. You're fething toxic.

The playtesters at FLG warned GW that the SM changes were too much.

GW ignored them and went forward.

Tournament results predictably reflected the results of that decision.

An indictment of GW competence and/or motives is completely warranted.

But keep looking for a more complicated answer.

Reply by: Xenomancers - click to view full reply 

91128

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 16:51:23

Post by: Xenomancers

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't disagree, but there's also a lot of weird stuff. Assault Cents with flamers? And 12 to 18 of them in lists backed up by eliminator parties? Plenty of lascannons over high ROF low damage options. 3rd place was BA/DW/and RG successors plus more Assault Cents -- a very melee heavy army no less.

The 'weird' stuff doesn't change the results. But keep looking for a reason to say GW didn't completely screw the pooch on the new marine stuff, have to push that apologist narrative!

Could you imagine thinking that Banshees were gonna tie up Assault Centurions in any way, shape, or form? Half the Chapters already have ways to fall back and shoot, and dinky D1 Power Swords attacks at S3 against T5 W4 2+?

Hence my comment about Spears & Banshees. What do you think would happen to Spears charging cents, really?

All they need is protect and they will annihilate a cent squad.

Typically they will drop 2 in a shooting phase and even a 4 man cent with 8 flamers on gets about 12 wounds from flames and maybe 4 more from bolters. Even in tactical doctrine (they will be in dev doctrine) it's only 2-3 dead spears. In dev doctrine it 2 or less. Plus it is pretty easy to not take each flamer as well (though to be fair they probably have the 11" flamer trait). There is literally no reason to charge those cents though. Shoot the choppy, choppy the shooty...Cents got a decent boost to survival but they are still very much killable...they don't have an invo.

Reply by: Slayer-Fan123 - click to view full reply 

90435

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 16:53:24

Post by: Slayer-Fan123

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't disagree, but there's also a lot of weird stuff. Assault Cents with flamers? And 12 to 18 of them in lists backed up by eliminator parties? Plenty of lascannons over high ROF low damage options. 3rd place was BA/DW/and RG successors plus more Assault Cents -- a very melee heavy army no less.

The 'weird' stuff doesn't change the results. But keep looking for a reason to say GW didn't completely screw the pooch on the new marine stuff, have to push that apologist narrative!

Could you imagine thinking that Banshees were gonna tie up Assault Centurions in any way, shape, or form? Half the Chapters already have ways to fall back and shoot, and dinky D1 Power Swords attacks at S3 against T5 W4 2+?

Hence my comment about Spears & Banshees. What do you think would happen to Spears charging cents, really?

The Centurions aren't really going to care much either. You'd be better off with two groups of Spears instead though for the sheer damage. Plus you can get a 3++ on the Exarch with the new rules (and with whatever Psyker powers to go with that to make it a 2++) to tank any Overwatch. After that, charge with another squad.

This isn't even noting that their shooting power is much greater for weakening Centurions.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 17:16:15

Post by: Daedalus81

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea, this gak right here. God forbid anyone take a regimented and curious approach to something. Get bent, dude. You're fething toxic.

The playtesters at FLG warned GW that the SM changes were too much.

GW ignored them and went forward.

Tournament results predictably reflected the results of that decision.

An indictment of GW competence and/or motives is completely warranted.

But keep looking for a more complicated answer.

Perhaps if you've followed all my recent comments you might understand my position better, but instead you just crash around on isolated comments with your bs. I have no desire to engage with you in conversation, because you're clearly unwilling to discuss anything beyond your current frame of mind.

Reply by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine - click to view full reply 

111961

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 17:22:22

Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine

vipoid wrote:
Just to clarify, my issue with Overwatch isn't that it's too strong. My issue is that 90% of the time it's just a time-wasting mechanic. It does nothing but make the game drag on as any and all charge rolls necessitate rolling a bunch of dice in the hope that a tiny fraction of them might actually accomplish something. And even when they do, it's not rewarding skill or tactics but sheer dumb luck.

IMO Overwatch should be made at something like -1BS but should then require that the Overwatching unit skip its next shooting phase (or something to that effect). In essence, make it an actual choice with consequences - not just an automatic event with no cost whatsoever.

Sorry, I know I'm getting off topic but Overwatch is something of a bugbear of mine.

This is also my opinion on overwatch, though I think it should just go away. There are some cases where it has a major effect on the game, like a squad with 5 flamers or Tau Supporting Fire, but the majority of the time it's a formality that takes up time and achieves nothing. From the charging perspective, I'm going to make melee with what I want anyway and have the effect I want, from the defending perspective I'm not going to stop the charge anyway so why bother with the dog and pony show.

I understand the purpose of it academically, and it is reasonably effective at what it's supposed to do. Discourage declaration of charges against everything within 12", preventing chargers from always aiming for the best possible result. There's no real penalty for aiming for the best and not making it except potential extra overwatch that might achieve something, and close quarters combat is brutally powerful, so maybe it shouldn't be entirely gone.

From the perspective of streamlining the process, something like -1" for each target declared would probably be better.

From the perspective of creating effective defensive fire, though, it actually needs to be effective more than a formality.


This isn't really on the topic of the Psychic Awakening book and Howling Banshees, though. Howling Banshees aren't effective against Space Marines due to lack of S and aren't effective against light infantry due to lack of A. They seem to be envisioned as an interference unit to take maximum advantage of what can be done in melee, but they pay for power swords that makes them too expensive for that.

The book itself seems more on the fluff than the rules, though. It's definitely obviously incongruous and striking how Space Marines can use successor tactics with the supplement stratagems and rules while Eldar can't, but Space Marines are also broken as all f*** right now because of that. I wonder what CSM will get in the next one.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 17:46:17

Post by: Daedalus81

 Xenomancers wrote:

All they need is protect and they will annihilate a cent squad.

Typically they will drop 2 in a shooting phase and even a 4 man cent with 8 flamers on gets about 12 wounds from flames and maybe 4 more from bolters. Even in tactical doctrine (they will be in dev doctrine) it's only 2-3 dead spears. In dev doctrine it 2 or less. Plus it is pretty easy to not take each flamer as well (though to be fair they probably have the 11" flamer trait). There is literally no reason to charge those cents though. Shoot the choppy, choppy the shooty...Cents got a decent boost to survival but they are still very much killable...they don't have an invo.

And when the protect psyker gets sniped?

#15 Spears, Hawks, 3 Prisms, 1 Spinner, 3 CHE with ignore cover and in cover over 12" narrowly beat Pampreen's successors with 18 Cents and handily beat a marine list with 3 Repulsors, 3 TFCs, 7 Aggressors, and Bobby
#18 Aeldari was CHE & Skyrunner spam, but faced only two vehicle heavy marines and beat them all.
#19 with a Alaitoc list narrowly lost to infantry based RG (1 point)
#22 with Spears / Reapers / Black Heart plus Yvraine / Ynnari Yncarne - tied IH 6 Cents, 3 Hawks, Scorpius, Levi, 6 Eliminators, TFC and soundly beat UM 8 Aggressors, 3 Invictors, Relic Levi, Cassius, Tiggy, and Bobby

The next closest Aeldari is #48 - 3 Razorwing, Yvraine, Kab & Venom spam, 3 Ravs - lost to WS 10 Cents, 2 TFC, 9 Elims, WW

So of the first 5 Aeldari players they fought nu-Marines 7 out of 30 times. Of those 7 games they went 5-1-1. Two games were RPS (CHE & haywire vs vehicles). The games against Cents were won by 1 point or a tie both with less conventional lists. The wins against other non-vehicle and non-cent lists were strong wins.

In the occasions I took note of T'au trounced Aeldari.

So, yea, Twinpole. I'm going to wait for more tournaments.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Centurions aren't really going to care much either. You'd be better off with two groups of Spears instead though for the sheer damage. Plus you can get a 3++ on the Exarch with the new rules (and with whatever Psyker powers to go with that to make it a 2++) to tank any Overwatch. After that, charge with another squad.

This isn't even noting that their shooting power is much greater for weakening Centurions.

I kind of enjoy the theory that nu-Marines are simultaneously totally broken, but easily defeated and the PA book for Eldar is useful, but also trash.

Time to pick a lane, guys.

Reply by: TwinPoleTheory - click to view full reply 

117111

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 17:57:27

Post by: TwinPoleTheory

 Daedalus81 wrote:
So, yea, Twinpole. I'm going to wait for more tournaments.

Yes, apparently an endless number of them. Someday the data will support your cognitive bias!

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Time to pick a lane, guys.

Keep cherrypicking Daed, don't look at the data trends, the complicated answer is clearly the right one! GW couldn't have screwed things up as bad as the data suggests!

Reply by: Slayer-Fan123 - click to view full reply 

90435

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 17:59:12

Post by: Slayer-Fan123

The Phoenix Rising book IS trash. All it did was give Exarchs some abilities their own Phoenix Lords don't have for whatever reason.

I'm just saying the Banshees aren't useful for charging the Centurions and I proceeded to show how.

Reply by: Xenomancers - click to view full reply 

91128

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 18:10:50

Post by: Xenomancers

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

All they need is protect and they will annihilate a cent squad.

Typically they will drop 2 in a shooting phase and even a 4 man cent with 8 flamers on gets about 12 wounds from flames and maybe 4 more from bolters. Even in tactical doctrine (they will be in dev doctrine) it's only 2-3 dead spears. In dev doctrine it 2 or less. Plus it is pretty easy to not take each flamer as well (though to be fair they probably have the 11" flamer trait). There is literally no reason to charge those cents though. Shoot the choppy, choppy the shooty...Cents got a decent boost to survival but they are still very much killable...they don't have an invo.

And when the protect psyker gets sniped?

#15 Spears, Hawks, 3 Prisms, 1 Spinner, 3 CHE with ignore cover and in cover over 12" narrowly beat Pampreen's successors with 18 Cents and handily beat a marine list with 3 Repulsors, 3 TFCs, 7 Aggressors, and Bobby
#18 Aeldari was CHE & Skyrunner spam, but faced only two vehicle heavy marines and beat them all.
#19 with a Alaitoc list narrowly lost to infantry based RG (1 point)
#22 with Spears / Reapers / Black Heart plus Yvraine / Ynnari Yncarne - tied IH 6 Cents, 3 Hawks, Scorpius, Levi, 6 Eliminators, TFC and soundly beat UM 8 Aggressors, 3 Invictors, Relic Levi, Cassius, Tiggy, and Bobby

The next closest Aeldari is #48 - 3 Razorwing, Yvraine, Kab & Venom spam, 3 Ravs - lost to WS 10 Cents, 2 TFC, 9 Elims, WW

So of the first 5 Aeldari players they fought nu-Marines 7 out of 30 times. Of those 7 games they went 5-1-1. Two games were RPS (CHE & haywire vs vehicles). The games against Cents were won by 1 point or a tie both with less conventional lists. The wins against other non-vehicle and non-cent lists were strong wins.

In the occasions I took note of T'au trounced Aeldari.

So, yea, Twinpole. I'm going to wait for more tournaments.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Centurions aren't really going to care much either. You'd be better off with two groups of Spears instead though for the sheer damage. Plus you can get a 3++ on the Exarch with the new rules (and with whatever Psyker powers to go with that to make it a 2++) to tank any Overwatch. After that, charge with another squad.

This isn't even noting that their shooting power is much greater for weakening Centurions.

I kind of enjoy the theory that nu-Marines are simultaneously totally broken, but easily defeated and the PA book for Eldar is useful, but also trash.

Time to pick a lane, guys.

Marines are players now - they need some fixes and they are gonna get them. The ironhands fix was pretty good. Now they just need to probably fix the most OP combos coming out of the supplements. IF super doctrine needs to only apply to weapons of str 8 or more. Realistically eldar are still eldar. You aren't gonna auto win vs these new eldar ether. They are probably at about the same power level and nu marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Phoenix Rising book IS trash. All it did was give Exarchs some abilities their own Phoenix Lords don't have for whatever reason.

I'm just saying the Banshees aren't useful for charging the Centurions and I proceeded to show how.

Don't forget the CWE custom traits. Uninspired but certainly a huge jump in power for a lot of units.

Reply by: TwinPoleTheory - click to view full reply 

117111

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 18:28:55

Post by: TwinPoleTheory

 Xenomancers wrote:
Marines are players now - they need some fixes and they are gonna get them.

Hope you're right, currently it's bad enough I won't even put CSM on the table. SM needs some serious fixes and they appear to be ignoring their playtesters, so who knows what data they're using to make those decisions.

https://www.goonhammer.com/meta-update-october-results-and-the-socal-open/

Pre-IH fixes and post-IH fixes took them from an absurd 70%+ win percentage to a little over 60% and the average performance of almost half of the random jackholes who showed up with Marine lists was staggering.

Reply by: Xenomancers - click to view full reply 

91128

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 18:41:04

Post by: Xenomancers

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Marines are players now - they need some fixes and they are gonna get them.

Hope you're right, currently it's bad enough I won't even put CSM on the table. SM needs some serious fixes and they appear to be ignoring their playtesters, so who knows what data they're using to make those decisions.

https://www.goonhammer.com/meta-update-october-results-and-the-socal-open/

Pre-IH fixes and post-IH fixes took them from an absurd 70%+ win percentage to a little over 60% and the average performance of almost half of the random jackholes who showed up with Marine lists was staggering.

I have heard that the new PA book is CSM/Sisters/And Guard. I think we are getting Fuilgrim too. CSM need a love bump. Like at the very least they need the +1 attack in the first round that all loyalist got. Then they also need something to be comparable to doctrines - perhaps with more of a CC focus. I think they will get custom traits at the very least.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

25208

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 18:50:15

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

They already got the extra attack, but that's a band-aid. Chaos's problem has never been damage output in melee.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 18:50:26

Post by: Daedalus81

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
So, yea, Twinpole. I'm going to wait for more tournaments.

Yes, apparently an endless number of them. Someday the data will support your cognitive bias!

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Time to pick a lane, guys.

Keep cherrypicking Daed, don't look at the data trends, the complicated answer is clearly the right one! GW couldn't have screwed things up as bad as the data suggests!

Ah, yes, the age old ponderous analysis as opposed to opinions based on raw figures that don't consider mirror matches, lists, the sheer quantity of marines, or anything else. That's cherry picking alright. Maybe I should go find the DE list that took 9 Venoms, Kabs, and Wyches as an impeachment against nuMarines? Would that make you happy?

Those poor top 25 Eldar who only had a 83% win rate against unbeatable nuMarines. If Eldar are not broken what does that make nuMarines? Or does that make Eldar broken?

The #1 (T'au) went 4 for 4 against numarines with really WIDE margins (up to 23 points) - he even scored +18 against Nanavanti's IH. The T'au at #6 lost to the #3 list which was BA, DW, and some RG Successors - no Eliminators and 5 Cents (maybe, *gasp* turning overwatch off).

So, if:

T'au > nuMarines and
Eldar > nuMarines and
nuMarines > Chaos, Necrons, Orks, IG, Knights

That means nuMarines > everything! Case closed. By looking at one number for the percentage of wins for the whole field we can clearly see exactly why marines are doing so well. Let's just gnash our teeth and provide absolutely no in-depth feedback.

Then again I'm just a white knight and you're not a troll.

Reply by: Blood Hawk - click to view full reply 

47013

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 18:51:04

Post by: Blood Hawk

 Xenomancers wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Marines are players now - they need some fixes and they are gonna get them.

Hope you're right, currently it's bad enough I won't even put CSM on the table. SM needs some serious fixes and they appear to be ignoring their playtesters, so who knows what data they're using to make those decisions.

https://www.goonhammer.com/meta-update-october-results-and-the-socal-open/

Pre-IH fixes and post-IH fixes took them from an absurd 70%+ win percentage to a little over 60% and the average performance of almost half of the random jackholes who showed up with Marine lists was staggering.

I have heard that the new PA book is CSM/Sisters/And Guard. I think we are getting Fuilgrim too. CSM need a love bump. Like at the very least they need the +1 attack in the first round that all loyalist got. Then they also need something to be comparable to doctrines - perhaps with more of a CC focus. I think they will get custom traits at the very least.

CSM already got their own version of SA in the errata. The next PA book has been announced to be BT vs CSM. With rules for six of the legions.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/02/new-reveals-chaos-sororitas-tanks-and-moregw-homepage-post-1/

Reply by: Xenomancers - click to view full reply 

91128

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 18:53:24

Post by: Xenomancers

Very nice.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 18:54:57

Post by: Daedalus81

 Xenomancers wrote:
I have heard that the new PA book is CSM/Sisters/And Guard. I think we are getting Fuilgrim too. CSM need a love bump. Like at the very least they need the +1 attack in the first round that all loyalist got. Then they also need something to be comparable to doctrines - perhaps with more of a CC focus. I think they will get custom traits at the very least.

Where did you hear Fulgrim? GW showed the sorcerer and hinted a BA character for PA3. No Fulgrim.

They stated "supplement-tier", but that doesn't necessarily mean doctrines. The supplements were a couple data sheets, strats, relics, traits, and spells. I'd be a little surprised if we got spells or doctrines. Custom legions would be in the "core" book, which we don't have so we probably won't see those, either.

Reply by: fraser1191 - click to view full reply 

105466

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 19:08:50

Post by: fraser1191

Isn't Phoenix rising supposed to just be a glorified lore book?

Reply by: Xenomancers - click to view full reply 

91128

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 19:08:52

Post by: Xenomancers

Emperors children are mentioned in the above article. Fulgrim has been hinted all edition. Now is the time. We already know the new BA unit is mephy prime.

Reply by: Sgt. Cortez - click to view full reply 

102537

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 19:09:52

Post by: Sgt. Cortez

Yeah, no Fulgrim (or Angron) yet. Must admit I'm surprised about that, would have expected a Primarch every year.
Getting updates in Psychic awakening doesn't stop GW from putting out an EC or WE codex in 1 year or even less.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 19:12:17

Post by: Daedalus81

 Xenomancers wrote:
Emperors children are mentioned in the above article. Fulgrim has been hinted all edition. Now is the time. We already know the new BA unit is mephy prime.

Still just wishful thinking. I'd prep for disappointment on a number of areas with PA2.

EC need a whole bunch of new stuff and it just won't see the light of day yet. The Bezerker kit is really silly looking these days, too.

Reply by: Blood Hawk - click to view full reply 

47013

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 19:29:11

Post by: Blood Hawk

If GW releases a new primarch with PA at all it would be in the last book of the series.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 19:32:25

Post by: Daedalus81

 Blood Hawk wrote:
If GW releases a new primarch with PA at all it would be in the last book of the series.

Yea, good point, but then I imagine it'd be Angron with WE in that book. Do we know how many of these there are going to be?

Reply by: Stormonu - click to view full reply 

65284

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 19:48:51

Post by: Stormonu

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Yeah, no Fulgrim (or Angron) yet. Must admit I'm surprised about that, would have expected a Primarch every year.
Getting updates in Psychic awakening doesn't stop GW from putting out an EC or WE codex in 1 year or even less.

I’m betting that was the plan when Kirby was in charge, but I suspect Roundtree put the ix-nay on doing that, as I have also suspected he was the one who changed direction from Primaris being an outright replacement to a “supplement and if they take, eventually replace” outlook on marines.

Reply by: Sterling191 - click to view full reply 

121068

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 20:31:44

Post by: Sterling191

 Xenomancers wrote:
Emperors children are mentioned in the above article. Fulgrim has been hinted all edition. Now is the time. We already know the new BA unit is mephy prime.

This isnt remotely going to happen, and Newphiston isnt coming until Book 3, which is BA vs. Nids.

For those playing at home, the "included in the article above" is a single mention in the list of Legions being given additional rules with PA2. Basing the appearance of Fulgrim on that is roughly equivalent to saying that Lorgar, Perturabo, Alpharius and Angron are also coming.

Hint: they aint.

Reply by: TwinPoleTheory - click to view full reply 

117111

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 20:51:06

Post by: TwinPoleTheory

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ah, yes, the age old ponderous analysis as opposed to opinions based on raw figures that don't consider mirror matches, lists, the sheer quantity of marines, or anything else.

Yes, that is cherry picking data specifically to support your narrative. The data is out there and it's pretty damning. You're literally digging for ANY excuse to say that everything is fine.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Then again I'm just a white knight and you're not a troll.

I do love my bridges, and you ride to GWs defense at every step, so perhaps you're on to something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Emperors children are mentioned in the above article. Fulgrim has been hinted all edition. Now is the time. We already know the new BA unit is mephy prime.

That's definitely not happening, also, it would create a horrible situation with EC either up to current marine standards and vastly superior to every other CSM possibility out there or it wouldn't and would utterly fail to move the needle in any meaningful way.

Reply by: Xenomancers - click to view full reply 

91128

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 21:08:40

Post by: Xenomancers

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ah, yes, the age old ponderous analysis as opposed to opinions based on raw figures that don't consider mirror matches, lists, the sheer quantity of marines, or anything else.

Yes, that is cherry picking data specifically to support your narrative. The data is out there and it's pretty damning. You're literally digging for ANY excuse to say that everything is fine.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Then again I'm just a white knight and you're not a troll.

I do love my bridges, and you ride to GWs defense at every step, so perhaps you're on to something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Emperors children are mentioned in the above article. Fulgrim has been hinted all edition. Now is the time. We already know the new BA unit is mephy prime.

That's definitely not happening, also, it would create a horrible situation with EC either up to current marine standards and vastly superior to every other CSM possibility out there or it wouldn't and would utterly fail to move the needle in any meaningful way.

Don't forget this is GW...We literally have no idea if 9th edition is going to drop any month now and internal balance is the last thing on their minds. It is entirely possible that all 6 of these chaos legions that are getting updated will be miles ahead of all other CSM armies. Fulgrim is just being wishful but this is the psychic awakening....I'd really expect some new psykers.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 21:21:04

Post by: Daedalus81

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:


Yes, that is cherry picking data specifically to support your narrative. The data is out there and it's pretty damning. You're literally digging for ANY excuse to say that everything is fine.

Excellent. Since you're so certain that you have a clear picture could give me the win rates of IH against each other faction? Or do you have just that one number?

You know what they say about statistics.

I do love my bridges, and you ride to GWs defense at every step, so perhaps you're on to something.

You're so sadly wrong about that, but don't let me ruin your narrative. I guess i'll refrain from having an opinion and asking questions on a forum just so I don't offend your hate boner.

Reply by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine - click to view full reply 

111961

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 21:29:11

Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine

 Xenomancers wrote:

I have heard that the new PA book is CSM/Sisters/And Guard. I think we are getting Fuilgrim too. CSM need a love bump. Like at the very least they need the +1 attack in the first round that all loyalist got. Then they also need something to be comparable to doctrines - perhaps with more of a CC focus. I think they will get custom traits at the very least.

Oddly, despite what looked like a teaser with the fleur de lis in it, and being a book named Faith and Fury, their list of included factions did not include us. On the upside, since they did say we would get something out of PA, that implies that that something isn't "plastic models and a codex", which is good for us IMO.

Reply by: TwinPoleTheory - click to view full reply 

117111

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 21:31:06

Post by: TwinPoleTheory

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Excellent. Since you're so certain that you have a clear picture could give me the win rates of IH against each other faction? Or do you have just that one number?

So you're saying as long as a single faction has a good win % against SM everything is fine? Is that the position you're staking out? Because you're specifically pointing out such a small sub-section of matches against such a specific set of opponents it is the very definition of cherry-picking. By the way, thanks for admitting you didn't actually read the analysis. There's a touch more than one number in there.

But you got me, I'm going to dig through BCP and do the spreadsheet work for you. After all, you're already on top of finding the matches that support what you want to believe, please continue the meticulous curation of your environment.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You're so sadly wrong about that, but don't let me ruin your narrative. I guess i'll refrain from having an opinion and asking questions on a forum just so I don't offend your hate boner.

Daed, you've done nothing but defend GW in every thread on this board lately. It's ok to say they fethed up, the data support that conclusion, the anecdotal evidence supports that conclusion. It doesn't make you a bad person.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 21:46:10

Post by: Daedalus81

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Excellent. Since you're so certain that you have a clear picture could give me the win rates of IH against each other faction? Or do you have just that one number?

So you're saying as long as a single faction has a good win % against SM everything is fine? Is that the position you're staking out? Because you're specifically pointing out such a small sub-section of matches against such a specific set of opponents it is the very definition of cherry-picking. By the way, thanks for admitting you didn't actually read the analysis. There's a touch more than one number in there.

But you got me, I'm going to dig through BCP and do the spreadsheet work for you. After all, you're already on top of finding the matches that support what you want to believe, please continue the meticulous curation of your environment.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You're so sadly wrong about that, but don't let me ruin your narrative. I guess i'll refrain from having an opinion and asking questions on a forum just so I don't offend your hate boner.

Daed, you've done nothing but defend GW in every thread on this board lately. It's ok to say they fethed up, the data support that conclusion, the anecdotal evidence supports that conclusion. It doesn't make you a bad person.

Just because my criticisms are worded as a direct attacking against GW or do not focus on the same areas as you doesn't mean they aren't criticisms. And just because I ask questions doesn't mean I'm white knighting for GW.

I'll leave these here:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/781804/10612110.page#10612110
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/781823/10611349.page#10611349
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/781736/10609910.page#10609910
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/781553/10608957.page#10608957
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/781553/10608776.page#10608776
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/781553/10607881.page#10607881
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/781553/10607414.page#10607414


Automatically Appended Next Post:

There's a touch more than one number in there.

There is nothing in that analysis other than directional data. AA are an easier army to play meaning even lower tables will win more. There are far more considerations to be made other than a high level analysis. Absolutely NONE of that data addresses the opponents of those armies.

You can call my research cherry picking, but I went down the line and looked at all the results for the players involved. I'm not going to bother with the guy in 80th place that took a terrible list.

Reply by: Tyel - click to view full reply 

101163

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 22:02:01

Post by: Tyel

Maybe its white knighting - but my view is that the Marine books have opened a lot of design space in the roster, and it will take time to settle down. Ignoring whether this is overpowered or not - its certainly "fun". My whinge about PA - imo anyway - is that this hasn't happened with all flavours of Eldar. The design space is all largely the same - I guess with the possible exception of the Ynnari characters floating into soup.

I'm not convinced at all by this "cents are great now omg" take that seems to be sweeping certain parts of the internet - because yeah, from a theoryhammer perspective, I think Eldar and Tau should have a reasonable shot at dealing with them - and Eldar and Tau are in a pretty good spot anyway. Maybe they are however the best Marine units for dealing with Eldar and Tau - although... I don't see it immediately.

At the same time yes, I am a bit concerned they are going to appear all over the tables of my FLGS and eat my unoptimised DE and CSM lists for breakfast. But such is life.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 22:39:34

Post by: Daedalus81

Tyel wrote:
- but my view is that the Marine books have opened a lot of design space in the roster,

Thank you for putting into words what has been in my head. I've had to read every inch of those books multiple times for the app and I kept thinking how much I enjoyed how things were set up.

There is a lot of opportunity to open up all the other armies if GW would only move on it.

Reply by: TwinPoleTheory - click to view full reply 

117111

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 22:39:45

Post by: TwinPoleTheory

 Daedalus81 wrote:
There is nothing in that analysis other than directional data. AA are an easier army to play meaning even lower tables will win more. There are far more considerations to be made other than a high level analysis. Absolutely NONE of that data addresses the opponents of those armies.

So toss the data that doesn't agree with your premise? Brilliant! As stated before, you've decided that if one faction can succeed all must be well, it's like you've designed your premise to be supported by cherry picked data.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You can call my research cherry picking, but I went down the line and looked at all the results for the players involved. I'm not going to bother with the guy in 80th place that took a terrible list.

You literally pulled less than 5 examples out of THOUSANDS, it's like you just learned cherry picking and decided to use the Feynman technique to demonstrate mastery! Well done!

Reply by: blaktoof - click to view full reply 

15582

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 22:39:52

Post by: blaktoof

I agree with OP.

PA really only adds exarch abilities and fluff to matched play.

The make your own craftworld/Kabal/cult/coven are all broken in a bad way and in no way are on par with similar SM rules.

In SM rules you can do the make your own chapter you still can get access to stratagems, relics(cost cp), psychic powers, warlord traits, etc.

If you do the same as asuryani you get none of those. The traits themselves while interesting are not better enough than the codex traits to lose those options. Who is going to make up Kabal traits to lose out on black heart warlord/stratagem/relic. No one that is playing competitively.

Reply by: Not Online!!! - click to view full reply 

119289

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 22:41:33

Post by: Not Online!!!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
- but my view is that the Marine books have opened a lot of design space in the roster,

Thank you for putting into words what has been in my head. I've had to read every inch of those books multiple times for the app and I kept thinking how much I enjoyed how things were set up.

There is a lot of opportunity to open up all the other armies if GW would only move on it.

Well it would lead to a lot more customizability and variability, which would probably help some rather monotonus armies out.

Otoh if GW feths it up like they did with ih then i belive it would be worse in a way.

Reply by: BrianDavion - click to view full reply 

79409

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 23:00:40

Post by: BrianDavion

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I have heard that the new PA book is CSM/Sisters/And Guard. I think we are getting Fuilgrim too. CSM need a love bump. Like at the very least they need the +1 attack in the first round that all loyalist got. Then they also need something to be comparable to doctrines - perhaps with more of a CC focus. I think they will get custom traits at the very least.

Oddly, despite what looked like a teaser with the fleur de lis in it, and being a book named Faith and Fury, their list of included factions did not include us. On the upside, since they did say we would get something out of PA, that implies that that something isn't "plastic models and a codex", which is good for us IMO.

would you really want to get something for sisters this early? anything sisters get in PA is proably content that was cut from the codex to toss in another book. if stuff like PA is "DLC" sisters content in PA2 would be day 1 DLC

Reply by: An Actual Englishman - click to view full reply 

117801

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 23:14:33

Post by: An Actual Englishman

How is that any different to Salamanders and White Scars who have literally just had a shiny new supplement book but now feature in PA2 apparently?

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/05 23:25:44

Post by: Daedalus81

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
There is nothing in that analysis other than directional data. AA are an easier army to play meaning even lower tables will win more. There are far more considerations to be made other than a high level analysis. Absolutely NONE of that data addresses the opponents of those armies.

So toss the data that doesn't agree with your premise? Brilliant! As stated before, you've decided that if one faction can succeed all must be well, it's like you've designed your premise to be supported by cherry picked data.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You can call my research cherry picking, but I went down the line and looked at all the results for the players involved. I'm not going to bother with the guy in 80th place that took a terrible list.

You literally pulled less than 5 examples out of THOUSANDS, it's like you just learned cherry picking and decided to use the Feynman technique to demonstrate mastery! Well done!

I hope you dont work with data...

Look at this info they presented:

For 1 or 2-loss SM armies (40 total)
48.5% of losses (19) came against other Marines
15% of losses (6) came against Tau
10% of losses (4) came against Knights (Imperial or Chaos)

First, this adds up to less than 75%. What's the other 25%?

How many game did they play versus T'au? If they lost 6 and played 12 that's 50%.

6 loses is a pretty small number. We know #1 beat them 4 times. #6 beat nuMarines once and lost to #3 who was 750 of RG plus DW and BA so that doesn't look to be part of their numbers.

The #24 tau with no drone spam lost once to nuMarines.
#40 tau won his one game.

7 games vs Tau. They lost 6. What does that make Tau with an 86% win rate vs nuMarines?

And saying these things is not the same as saying marines aren't strong, but asking questions and understanding the matchups helps us understand WHY they do well in some areas, but not others and derive a path that levels the tight things.

You want super docs to be once per doc? I'm all for it.

Reply by: PenitentJake - click to view full reply 

120048

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 02:06:39

Post by: PenitentJake

BrianDavion wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I have heard that the new PA book is CSM/Sisters/And Guard. I think we are getting Fuilgrim too. CSM need a love bump. Like at the very least they need the +1 attack in the first round that all loyalist got. Then they also need something to be comparable to doctrines - perhaps with more of a CC focus. I think they will get custom traits at the very least.

Oddly, despite what looked like a teaser with the fleur de lis in it, and being a book named Faith and Fury, their list of included factions did not include us. On the upside, since they did say we would get something out of PA, that implies that that something isn't "plastic models and a codex", which is good for us IMO.

would you really want to get something for sisters this early? anything sisters get in PA is proably content that was cut from the codex to toss in another book. if stuff like PA is "DLC" sisters content in PA2 would be day 1 DLC

It's not that anyone wanted PA content this early- the Fleur de Lis in the video teaser made us think that sisters would get something. Interestingly enough, the inclusion in the video implies that we might play a role in the fluff, even if we don't get rules. That, or GW just wanted to cross promote, or Easter egg the Sisters release.

As it turns out, we are getting bonus content in a round about way, and they may roll PA into the flavour. The Inquisition are getting their WD update this month, and as we are the chamber militant of the Hereticus, an update to them is an update to us. I'm hoping they get good rules integration into all Imperial factions, and I want synergy with chamber militant units.

To return to OP:

IMO, the first PA release did not go as far as it could have.The huge price tag and the selection of models displeased many- including ONLY the new units to shave the price down to something more reasonable would have gone a long way. I'm one of the lucky few who actually wanted and probably would have individually purchase all of the kits, so it will save me a pile of money. But I'm a real minority on this.

Having said that, I think all the new sculpts are great, and they were always some of my favourite units, so I was ecstatic. The Incubi and Banshees even have Kill Team rules, so they're perfect for me- I probably play more KT than 40k anyway. Also, I think the new rules content was a nice perk- it certainly wasn't a game changer, but the new units did get upgraded rules, and there were a few other useful things for armies as a whole.

Part of the hate comes from its proximity to the marine Codex + Supplement release which was far and away the superior upgrade. It isn't really fair to compare Phoenix Rising to the marine codex suite. Vigilus is a better comparison- especially if you only compare it to one of the books in the Vigilus Set. We don'y yet know how many PA books there will be, but I'm going to guess at least 4 and no more than 6. Comparing Phoenix Rising to the other PA books will be the fairest way to measure its success as a campaign supplement, and that we won't really be able to judge PA as a whole until we see how it ends.

and it's hard to judge Phoenix Rising without another book for comparison. If all of the factions in PA2 get relics, warlord traits, strats, etc. then it's safe to say it's going to have way more content. But maybe each faction only ends up with one of those things, or maybe some, but not all. We will know more once the next book drops.

Reply by: BrianDavion - click to view full reply 

79409

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 02:36:38

Post by: BrianDavion

yeah I expect PA2 will be more a cross market with sisters situation. expect to see pictures of sisters fighting alongside black templars etc

Reply by: Eldarain - click to view full reply 

56277

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 06:12:37

Post by: Eldarain

Supplement Tier friend. We're all set to board the gravy train of insane free buffs. Don't worry if book two dissappoints. Surely the next book after will steady this ship... (Only BA will get any noticeable bump from it...)

Reply by: the_scotsman - click to view full reply 

35310

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 13:36:24

Post by: the_scotsman

blaktoof wrote:
I agree with OP.

PA really only adds exarch abilities and fluff to matched play.

The make your own craftworld/Kabal/cult/coven are all broken in a bad way and in no way are on par with similar SM rules.

In SM rules you can do the make your own chapter you still can get access to stratagems, relics(cost cp), psychic powers, warlord traits, etc.

If you do the same as asuryani you get none of those. The traits themselves while interesting are not better enough than the codex traits to lose those options. Who is going to make up Kabal traits to lose out on black heart warlord/stratagem/relic. No one that is playing competitively.

Luckily basically every subfaction-specific strat relic and WL trait out of CWE is garbage. I'm losing no sleep over the loss of my Ulthwe Smite Hat.

Other than the consideration of whether I care about losing Vexator mask, there's very little in the Cult or Coven I would otherwise play that really factors in. And even then...I'll just swap Vexator Mask for Helm of Spite or Writ depending on what I need.

There's absolutely nothing in the Kabal list worth considering over Black Heart or Flayed Skull, that's definitely true. But I've played with Technomancers+Experimental and with with Slashing+Test of Skill, and I can tell you we will see competitive lists using both for certain.

Reply by: bullyboy - click to view full reply 

85390

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 13:39:18

Post by: bullyboy

the_scotsman wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
I agree with OP.

PA really only adds exarch abilities and fluff to matched play.

The make your own craftworld/Kabal/cult/coven are all broken in a bad way and in no way are on par with similar SM rules.

In SM rules you can do the make your own chapter you still can get access to stratagems, relics(cost cp), psychic powers, warlord traits, etc.

If you do the same as asuryani you get none of those. The traits themselves while interesting are not better enough than the codex traits to lose those options. Who is going to make up Kabal traits to lose out on black heart warlord/stratagem/relic. No one that is playing competitively.

Luckily basically every subfaction-specific strat relic and WL trait out of CWE is garbage. I'm losing no sleep over the loss of my Ulthwe Smite Hat.

Other than the consideration of whether I care about losing Vexator mask, there's very little in the Cult or Coven I would otherwise play that really factors in. And even then...I'll just swap Vexator Mask for Helm of Spite or Writ depending on what I need.

There's absolutely nothing in the Kabal list worth considering over Black Heart or Flayed Skull, that's definitely true. But I've played with Technomancers+Experimental and with with Slashing+Test of Skill, and I can tell you we will see competitive lists using both for certain.

That is the truth. I've often gone into games with my Eldar not even thinking about WL traits and relics until questioned. Then I randomly just pick one of them, they are that bad.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 13:45:53

Post by: Daedalus81

The lack of relics is really gakky.

The new marine book relics are stupendous. I suppose they expect exarch abilities to be like Special Issue Wargear, but they could have easily spared a couple pages to update or add to some of the uninspired relics.

Just wait until I take the prismatic staff on my A3 sorcerer so he can shoot with a pistol and charge in a turn he fell back! (I'm ok with there being some gak relics, but clearly there's a new standard)

Reply by: the_scotsman - click to view full reply 

35310

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 14:47:35

Post by: the_scotsman

 bullyboy wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
I agree with OP.

PA really only adds exarch abilities and fluff to matched play.

The make your own craftworld/Kabal/cult/coven are all broken in a bad way and in no way are on par with similar SM rules.

In SM rules you can do the make your own chapter you still can get access to stratagems, relics(cost cp), psychic powers, warlord traits, etc.

If you do the same as asuryani you get none of those. The traits themselves while interesting are not better enough than the codex traits to lose those options. Who is going to make up Kabal traits to lose out on black heart warlord/stratagem/relic. No one that is playing competitively.

Luckily basically every subfaction-specific strat relic and WL trait out of CWE is garbage. I'm losing no sleep over the loss of my Ulthwe Smite Hat.

Other than the consideration of whether I care about losing Vexator mask, there's very little in the Cult or Coven I would otherwise play that really factors in. And even then...I'll just swap Vexator Mask for Helm of Spite or Writ depending on what I need.

There's absolutely nothing in the Kabal list worth considering over Black Heart or Flayed Skull, that's definitely true. But I've played with Technomancers+Experimental and with with Slashing+Test of Skill, and I can tell you we will see competitive lists using both for certain.

That is the truth. I've often gone into games with my Eldar not even thinking about WL traits and relics until questioned. Then I randomly just pick one of them, they are that bad.

Pheonix Gem and +2" move on the avatar of khaine every time, lol. Basically never changes.

Reply by: Tyranid Horde - click to view full reply 

20609

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 14:56:37

Post by: Tyranid Horde

Mark of the Incomparable Hunter is my go to on an Autarch Skyrunner with shimmerplume for -1 to hit. Extra sniping is always nice.

I wouldn't say the relics or the WL traits are bad, some of them are sure, but there are good enough options depending on the build.

Reply by: TwinPoleTheory - click to view full reply 

117111

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 15:22:35

Post by: TwinPoleTheory

 Daedalus81 wrote:

For 1 or 2-loss SM armies (40 total)
48.5% of losses (19) came against other Marines
15% of losses (6) came against Tau
10% of losses (4) came against Knights (Imperial or Chaos)

First, this adds up to less than 75%. What's the other 25%?

How many game did they play versus T'au? If they lost 6 and played 12 that's 50%.

6 loses is a pretty small number. We know #1 beat them 4 times. #6 beat nuMarines once and lost to #3 who was 750 of RG plus DW and BA so that doesn't look to be part of their numbers.

The #24 tau with no drone spam lost once to nuMarines.
#40 tau won his one game.

7 games vs Tau. They lost 6. What does that make Tau with an 86% win rate vs nuMarines?

This is so meta. First of all, you cherry-picked to defend your cherry picking, it's just brilliant.

Second, they didn't post all the losses, they never stated there that they were sharing all the losses, they just shared the top 3, it's pretty safe to assume that the remaining 10 losses were scattered amongst other factions and were omitted for the sake of brevity. But I can understand how that would short-circuit your ability to cherry-pick the data to support your 'everything is great' narrative.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 16:28:30

Post by: Daedalus81

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

For 1 or 2-loss SM armies (40 total)
48.5% of losses (19) came against other Marines
15% of losses (6) came against Tau
10% of losses (4) came against Knights (Imperial or Chaos)

First, this adds up to less than 75%. What's the other 25%?

How many game did they play versus T'au? If they lost 6 and played 12 that's 50%.

6 loses is a pretty small number. We know #1 beat them 4 times. #6 beat nuMarines once and lost to #3 who was 750 of RG plus DW and BA so that doesn't look to be part of their numbers.

The #24 tau with no drone spam lost once to nuMarines.
#40 tau won his one game.

7 games vs Tau. They lost 6. What does that make Tau with an 86% win rate vs nuMarines?

This is so meta. First of all, you cherry-picked to defend your cherry picking, it's just brilliant.

Second, they didn't post all the losses, they never stated there that they were sharing all the losses, they just shared the top 3, it's pretty safe to assume that the remaining 10 losses were scattered amongst other factions and were omitted for the sake of brevity. But I can understand how that would short-circuit your ability to cherry-pick the data to support your 'everything is great' narrative.

You are relentlessly incurious, aren't you?

You just deflect deflect deflect. You don't address anything and hand wash it away with bs assertions that I'm saying everything is great.

They shared the loses from all the marines with 2 or fewer losses. That makes those the better players and better lists. If those better players can't scratch T'au, like, at all, what does that make marines? If they can't confidently crack Eldar, then what does that make them? And more importantly what causes them to be more effective against everything else?

If you can't answer questions you don't have any right to be around discussions about what makes marines strong or everything else weak.

Reply by: Marin - click to view full reply 

120890

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 17:02:22

Post by: Marin

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

All they need is protect and they will annihilate a cent squad.

Typically they will drop 2 in a shooting phase and even a 4 man cent with 8 flamers on gets about 12 wounds from flames and maybe 4 more from bolters. Even in tactical doctrine (they will be in dev doctrine) it's only 2-3 dead spears. In dev doctrine it 2 or less. Plus it is pretty easy to not take each flamer as well (though to be fair they probably have the 11" flamer trait). There is literally no reason to charge those cents though. Shoot the choppy, choppy the shooty...Cents got a decent boost to survival but they are still very much killable...they don't have an invo.

And when the protect psyker gets sniped?

#15 Spears, Hawks, 3 Prisms, 1 Spinner, 3 CHE with ignore cover and in cover over 12" narrowly beat Pampreen's successors with 18 Cents and handily beat a marine list with 3 Repulsors, 3 TFCs, 7 Aggressors, and Bobby
#18 Aeldari was CHE & Skyrunner spam, but faced only two vehicle heavy marines and beat them all.
#19 with a Alaitoc list narrowly lost to infantry based RG (1 point)
#22 with Spears / Reapers / Black Heart plus Yvraine / Ynnari Yncarne - tied IH 6 Cents, 3 Hawks, Scorpius, Levi, 6 Eliminators, TFC and soundly beat UM 8 Aggressors, 3 Invictors, Relic Levi, Cassius, Tiggy, and Bobby

The next closest Aeldari is #48 - 3 Razorwing, Yvraine, Kab & Venom spam, 3 Ravs - lost to WS 10 Cents, 2 TFC, 9 Elims, WW

So of the first 5 Aeldari players they fought nu-Marines 7 out of 30 times. Of those 7 games they went 5-1-1. Two games were RPS (CHE & haywire vs vehicles). The games against Cents were won by 1 point or a tie both with less conventional lists. The wins against other non-vehicle and non-cent lists were strong wins.

In the occasions I took note of T'au trounced Aeldari.

So, yea, Twinpole. I'm going to wait for more tournaments.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Centurions aren't really going to care much either. You'd be better off with two groups of Spears instead though for the sheer damage. Plus you can get a 3++ on the Exarch with the new rules (and with whatever Psyker powers to go with that to make it a 2++) to tank any Overwatch. After that, charge with another squad.

This isn't even noting that their shooting power is much greater for weakening Centurions.

I kind of enjoy the theory that nu-Marines are simultaneously totally broken, but easily defeated and the PA book for Eldar is useful, but also trash.

Time to pick a lane, guys.

If you know that 25% of the players will bring marines, tailored list controlled by good player will always have a chance.
The question is why are you cherry picking some results and don`t give the full picture ?
Maybe the results are not what you try to convince people ?

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 17:09:41

Post by: Daedalus81

Marin wrote:

If you know that 25% of the players will bring marines, tailored list controlled by good player will always have a chance.
The question is why are you cherry picking some results and don`t give the full picture ?
Maybe the results are not what you try to convince people ?

Oh good christ another one.

How do you figure it's cherry picking? Have you reviewed all of the data? Do you have some data that refutes my position?

I'm LITERALLY going top to bottom and collecting results and posting them. I don't have time to go through every single fething game. I have enough data to raise QUESTIONS about the position being posted. If you guys can't understand that I got nothing for you.

Reply by: TwinPoleTheory - click to view full reply 

117111

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 17:10:47

Post by: TwinPoleTheory

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You are relentlessly incurious, aren't you?

No, I'm very curious, just not when the premise of your argument starts from a logical fallacy. You've pretty much failed coming out of the gate at that point.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They shared the loses from all the marines with 2 or fewer losses. That makes those the better players and better lists. If those better players can't scratch T'au, like, at all, what does that make marines? If they can't confidently crack Eldar, then what does that make them? And more importantly what causes them to be more effective against everything else?

You do understand how that lays a premise based on cherry-picked data right? You're stating, quite clearly, that as long as we have a couple factions are performing well against marines (more specifically, a couple VERY specific builds within those factions), that parity is alive and well.

So, show up with a premise that isn't based on logical fallacy first, how about that? Then you might actually have a debate worth having.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 17:13:41

Post by: Daedalus81

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

You're stating, quite clearly, that as long as we have a couple factions are performing well against marines (more specifically, a couple VERY specific builds within those factions), that parity is alive and well.

That's not what I fething said. You're so blinded by your narrative you can't stop and actually read the posts and I'm done holding your hand through it.

Here, I'll help you one last time:

And saying these things is not the same as saying marines aren't strong, but asking questions and understanding the matchups helps us understand WHY they do well in some areas, but not others and derive a path that levels the right things.

For here on I'm done talking to you.

Reply by: TwinPoleTheory - click to view full reply 

117111

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 17:46:06

Post by: TwinPoleTheory

 Daedalus81 wrote:
And saying these things is not the same as saying marines aren't strong, but asking questions and understanding the matchups helps us understand WHY they do well in some areas, but not others and derive a path that levels the right things.

This is some disingenuous crap designed to get to the conclusion you want. I'm not engaging with it because it's a bs debate tactic that has nothing to do with the data. The idea is that it's the player's fault and not a flaw or failure of game design, it's basically victim blaming.

Reply by: Bharring - click to view full reply 

71534

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 19:49:21

Post by: Bharring

You're all wrong.

PA was obviously OP.

Every rulesset CWE have gotten has been OP. Therefore, since PA gave them rules, PA made CWE OP.

It's like Marines never getting good rules. It's an immutable fact of this hobby.

(So immutable, those times it didn't work don't count. Because of the rules above.)

Reply by: Marin - click to view full reply 

120890

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 21:05:21

Post by: Marin

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

If you know that 25% of the players will bring marines, tailored list controlled by good player will always have a chance.
The question is why are you cherry picking some results and don`t give the full picture ?
Maybe the results are not what you try to convince people ?

Oh good christ another one.

How do you figure it's cherry picking? Have you reviewed all of the data? Do you have some data that refutes my position?

I'm LITERALLY going top to bottom and collecting results and posting them. I don't have time to go through every single fething game. I have enough data to raise QUESTIONS about the position being posted. If you guys can't understand that I got nothing for you.

Well we will wait and see when they update the stats center, but i can give you some numbers if you insist:

Mix aeldar vs SM:
Mix SM - 1 lose
UM - 3W, 6L, 1D
RG - 1W, 3L
WS - 2L
If - 2L

I found 18 games.
4 Wins, 14 loses, 1 D

That is 22% WR, amassing.

Pure CWE only 3 players:
RG - 1 W, 1 L
UM - 1 L

I don`t wanna waist my time checking Drukhari, when the best players is 51 with 4 -2 record.
So no your numbers are just cherry picked and simple wrong.
Look at the results of Blood and Glory, that is the future of 40k when SM players get practice and better lists.

Reply by: Slayer-Fan123 - click to view full reply 

90435

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 21:22:48

Post by: Slayer-Fan123

Bharring wrote:
You're all wrong.

PA was obviously OP.

Every rulesset CWE have gotten has been OP. Therefore, since PA gave them rules, PA made CWE OP.

It's like Marines never getting good rules. It's an immutable fact of this hobby.

(So immutable, those times it didn't work don't count. Because of the rules above.)

Can't you stop playing martyr for Eldar once in your life?

Reply by: Argive - click to view full reply 

92012

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 21:25:09

Post by: Argive

Jeez guys take it to pm....

On topic I got my PR book through the post.

They have managed to cram surprisingly a lot into the book it is very thin hardback.. i believe its less pages than your bog standard WD? I see why they made it hard back to justify the price tag.

The exarch rules are a nice step in the right direction. However, as with all GW rules. You have one which is just better than the other 5 9/10 times.. i realy dont understand this philosphy. Why make filler content for rules? But i can see people experimenting with various builds

The trouble is nothing has been done to adress the aspect issues. The unit sizes are essentialy 5 or 10... why cant I have just 3 fire dragons? Why cant I have 20 DA? Why cant I have 15 howling banshees? Why cant I cave msu 3 man teams of howling banshees? Its clear their exarch is the true beatstick.

Anyway, its a very fancy reference guide. But if id paid GW asking price or a collectors edition id be seriously evaluating my life choices. Im glad its not OP and there is certain build possible to mix things up. Certainly most of it is not top tier competitive but a lot of fun thing can be tried for sure...I'm not however glad theres not a single strategem, warlord trait or relic to make the list building even more fun..

Reply by: pm713 - click to view full reply 

84364

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 22:07:26

Post by: pm713

I've never once found the 5 - 10 limit weird. Why would you have as many as 20 at once?

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 22:08:12

Post by: Daedalus81

Marin wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

If you know that 25% of the players will bring marines, tailored list controlled by good player will always have a chance.
The question is why are you cherry picking some results and don`t give the full picture ?
Maybe the results are not what you try to convince people ?

Oh good christ another one.

How do you figure it's cherry picking? Have you reviewed all of the data? Do you have some data that refutes my position?

I'm LITERALLY going top to bottom and collecting results and posting them. I don't have time to go through every single fething game. I have enough data to raise QUESTIONS about the position being posted. If you guys can't understand that I got nothing for you.

Well we will wait and see when they update the stats center, but i can give you some numbers if you insist:

Mix aeldar vs SM:
Mix SM - 1 lose
UM - 3W, 6L, 1D
RG - 1W, 3L
WS - 2L
If - 2L

I found 18 games.
4 Wins, 14 loses, 1 D

That is 22% WR, amassing.

Pure CWE only 3 players:
RG - 1 W, 1 L
UM - 1 L

I don`t wanna waist my time checking Drukhari, when the best players is 51 with 4 -2 record.
So no your numbers are just cherry picked and simple wrong.
Look at the results of Blood and Glory, that is the future of 40k when SM players get practice and better lists.

Thank you. I actually really appreciate this. Those are B&G stats?

Reply by: Bharring - click to view full reply 

71534

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 22:14:48

Post by: Bharring

Edit: Argrive's right. Why'd I engage with trolling.

Reply by: Argive - click to view full reply 

92012

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/06 23:11:46

Post by: Argive

pm713 wrote:
I've never once found the 5 - 10 limit weird. Why would you have as many as 20 at once?

Because then you could justify taking AOK/Asurmen.. And justify casting powers on larger units.

Are you ever going to cast protect on 10 DAs or 10 banshees or 10 scorpions where you can cast protect on 20 guardians with celestial shield, a unit of wraiths or big unit of shinig spears (or MSU shinign spears now...for that matter)?

Maybe I want to have a bunch of 3 man squad fire dragons with flamer and CC exarch to charge into combat with my 15-20 banshees? Am I going to take the CC trait on FD exarch to throw him away into CC if he's with a unit of 4 of his dragon dragon friends? The new Exarch powers lend themselves more to the MSU style of play in my mind but end up having to take the tax of taking 4 guys just to have an exarch do cool stuff is very meh.

At least a squad of 20 banshees would kill things/survive shooting. 10 banshees just don't have enough attacks. 20 banshees with disdain Strat and enervate/enhance? That's a much cheaper wraith blade bomb alternative.

Reapers can already be deployed in a 3 man unit. Why not dragons? I cant see why DA couldn't squad up to 15-20 dudes. Id take them over guardians. Having to manage multiple 5-10 man squads is very diminishing returns as they tend to get deleted when anything with a STr4 gun looks at them. At least they'd survive. You can still have a 10 man squad if you want them in a serpent..

Obviously its juts my opinion. With the new traits it seems the exarchs could really be a force to be reckoned with. Having 3 fire dragon exarchs jump out of a WS and wade into CC with their flamers & burning fists sounds epic. Or whatever. It just feels to me that's how aspects should be played and leave players the building tools to wither spam blobs and buffs or go MSU elite units and do sneak attacks where it hurts.. The Eldar way

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 02:59:33

Post by: Daedalus81

Marin wrote:

I don`t wanna waist my time checking Drukhari, when the best players is 51 with 4 -2 record.
So no your numbers are just cherry picked and simple wrong.
Look at the results of Blood and Glory, that is the future of 40k when SM players get practice and better lists.

Ok, so, apparently you were trying to quote SoCal numbers here, because the DE player there is #51.

That makes your assertion of a 22% win rate off? Unless you were quoting B&G?

Top to bottom --
Ahumada - beat RG, UM, BA
Stefansson - beat IH, UM
Achey - lost to RG
Olivas - beat UM, tied IH
Baugh - beat IH, lost to RG, UM
Becker - beat UM, lost to WS
Winn - lost to IH, IH
Blake - beat IH, lost to WS, IF, RG
Haack - beat RG, lost to UM,
Hamor - lost to RG
Hernandez - beat UM
Myers - none vs marines
Jollimore - lost vs UM

That's 24 games: 11-11-1 out to 150th or so in placings and that's all I have time for.

So no your numbers are just cherry picked and simple wrong.

No, they aren't. It's top to bottom. I didn't exclude anyone as I went through the list.

Look at the results of Blood and Glory, that is the future of 40k when SM players get practice and better lists.

I have some questions.

1) What information do you have to assert that one week of additional practice is enough to create those varied results?
2) In what way were the lists better? The first player has 17 Centurions.
3) B&G is in Europe where they typically play ETC. This appears to be the first time these organizers ran ITC.
a) Do you think that a tournament run by a fluffier organization might attract more fluffy players?
i) Does the inclusion of paint scores affect this? Contrast with SoCal that does not.
ii) Does the inclusion of sports scores affect this? Contrast with SoCal that does not.
b) Do you think the lack of experience with ITC would be a detriment to armies that aren't as easy to play as marines?
c) Given the 2018 tournament used the original Eternal War missions at 1750 points what other large tournaments can you point to that these players attended with ITC rules?

In any case I'm sure people are tired of reading my gak. I'm ok letting things shake out, because that's what is going to happen anyway - no sense pissing myself over marines. I'm pretty sure I could table the all centurion lists with just 3 gravitron moirax so I'm not sure what it would take to settle the lists into whatever the meta will be.

Reply by: Marin - click to view full reply 

120890

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 11:53:54

Post by: Marin

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Marin wrote:

I don`t wanna waist my time checking Drukhari, when the best players is 51 with 4 -2 record.
So no your numbers are just cherry picked and simple wrong.
Look at the results of Blood and Glory, that is the future of 40k when SM players get practice and better lists.

Ok, so, apparently you were trying to quote SoCal numbers here, because the DE player there is #51.

That makes your assertion of a 22% win rate off? Unless you were quoting B&G?

Top to bottom --
Ahumada - beat RG, UM, BA
Stefansson - beat IH, UM
Achey - lost to RG
Olivas - beat UM, tied IH
Baugh - beat IH, lost to RG, UM
Becker - beat UM, lost to WS
Winn - lost to IH, IH
Blake - beat IH, lost to WS, IF, RG
Haack - beat RG, lost to UM,
Hamor - lost to RG
Hernandez - beat UM
Myers - none vs marines
Jollimore - lost vs UM

That's 24 games: 11-11-1 out to 150th or so in placings and that's all I have time for.

So no your numbers are just cherry picked and simple wrong.

No, they aren't. It's top to bottom. I didn't exclude anyone as I went through the list.

Look at the results of Blood and Glory, that is the future of 40k when SM players get practice and better lists.

I have some questions.

1) What information do you have to assert that one week of additional practice is enough to create those varied results?
2) In what way were the lists better? The first player has 17 Centurions.
3) B&G is in Europe where they typically play ETC. This appears to be the first time these organizers ran ITC.
a) Do you think that a tournament run by a fluffier organization might attract more fluffy players?
i) Does the inclusion of paint scores affect this? Contrast with SoCal that does not.
ii) Does the inclusion of sports scores affect this? Contrast with SoCal that does not.
b) Do you think the lack of experience with ITC would be a detriment to armies that aren't as easy to play as marines?
c) Given the 2018 tournament used the original Eternal War missions at 1750 points what other large tournaments can you point to that these players attended with ITC rules?

In any case I'm sure people are tired of reading my gak. I'm ok letting things shake out, because that's what is going to happen anyway - no sense pissing myself over marines. I'm pretty sure I could table the all centurion lists with just 3 gravitron moirax so I'm not sure what it would take to settle the lists into whatever the meta will be.

Well, if you exclude the under performers and include over performer the numbers will get better. Also the random BA Win is nice way to pump numbers in the right direction.
Good catch i did not include Winn, since he is listed as Drukhari, although he is using mix aeldar.
I don`t wanna waist more time to check the the numbers, the Falcon promised he will update them on Friday.

If you follow Mani Cheema, who is in top 10 in ITC, he is building centurions from 2-4 weeks. He is ofcourse talking about his list and show some of his practice games, where he refine his strategy.
With more practice and refinement we can expect even higher win rate. BTW this is one of the guys who was undefeated at LGT with aeldar flyer lists.
You can also heard his thoughts about PA and sadly his opinion matched with mine.

You can read the pack in here: https://bloodandglory.baddice.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/bloodandglory2019_40k_v1.pdf
I`ll be very supprised if the painting scores matered and having in mind Mani`s army is new and fast build, i`ll doubt he got decent scores.

I`m starting to think the UK people catch faster and i really ahead of the Americans in list building design.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

25208

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 12:48:58

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

Why is it that people assume SM lists will improve over time, as opposed to weakening over time when people think up ways to counter them? What makes an increase in wins more likely than a decrease?

Reply by: Tyranid Horde - click to view full reply 

20609

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 12:54:15

Post by: Tyranid Horde

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Why is it that people assume SM lists will improve over time, as opposed to weakening over time when people think up ways to counter them? What makes an increase in wins more likely than a decrease?

More time means list refinement occurs, weeding out the less efficient units and increasing the understanding of the army's win cons. At the same time the meta will shift to combat older lists but won't be fully tooled to combat a newer list unless opposing armies are proactive instead of reactive.

Reply by: the_scotsman - click to view full reply 

35310

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 14:43:47

Post by: the_scotsman

Another week of tournaments where 75% of the top four placements were taken by marines. Any minute now that meta's gonna adjust and everyone's gonna figure out the trick to beating 'em!

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 14:56:14

Post by: Daedalus81

the_scotsman wrote:
Another week of tournaments where 75% of the top four placements were taken by marines. Any minute now that meta's gonna adjust and everyone's gonna figure out the trick to beating 'em!

I can almost guarantee a few gravitron moirax can table assault cent spam with speedbumps in between. People were so absolutely focused on IH until the nerf on 10/17. That's basically two weeks for people to see and play upcoming lists. No, I don't think that is a relevant amount of time for people to adjust to a unit that basically has not been seen for over 3 years and certainly not in the quantities taken.

I'm not proclaiming everything is "ok", but a lot of the current lists are super one dimensional. There are certainly stronger lists out there and there are potentially counters. Personally, snipers are a bigger problem for me.

And, not to mention, CA coming up, which can take some of the bite out. Especially if cult marines go to W2.

Reply by: TwinPoleTheory - click to view full reply 

117111

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 15:08:24

Post by: TwinPoleTheory

 Daedalus81 wrote:
And, not to mention, CA coming up, which can take some of the bite out. Especially if cult marines go to W2.

You know CA will have gone to print before the SM codex came out right? So it is not likely to reflect anything that's happened in the past month or two, but hey, keep hope alive Daed.

Reply by: ThePorcupine - click to view full reply 

61532

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 15:18:34

Post by: ThePorcupine

Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

Reply by: Burnage - click to view full reply 

112260

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 15:36:25

Post by: Burnage

ThePorcupine wrote:
Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

Harlequins are in such a weird space and it's a shame that Phoenix Rising gave them literally nothing. I know it'd suck for pure Harlequins players, but I almost think they'd be better off if they were still just options in the Craftworlds/Drukhari codices.

Reply by: Elbows - click to view full reply 

29836

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 16:45:01

Post by: Elbows

This will tick off Harlequin players, but they shouldn't be an army in 40K, so complaining about the lack of kits/units is kind of silly. They're just one of GW's "gimmick armies" like Grey Knights. Lore-wise they should not deploy as "an army", and they have models representing most (if not more) than anything mentioned in the fluff lore.

Harlequins should have remained as basic Eldar allies (an option in the main codex), just as Grey Knights should have been put into an Agents of the Imperium book (and should have been far better, without the new kits/models). The small "specialist" armies are really just cash-grabs from GW. Expecting heavy model support or deep lines of options is a bit naive/silly.

Reply by: ThePorcupine - click to view full reply 

61532

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 17:00:10

Post by: ThePorcupine

 Elbows wrote:
This will tick off Harlequin players, but they shouldn't be an army in 40K, so complaining about the lack of kits/units is kind of silly. They're just one of GW's "gimmick armies" like Grey Knights. Lore-wise they should not deploy as "an army", and they have models representing most (if not more) than anything mentioned in the fluff lore.

Harlequins should have remained as basic Eldar allies (an option in the main codex), just as Grey Knights should have been put into an Agents of the Imperium book (and should have been far better, without the new kits/models). The small "specialist" armies are really just cash-grabs from GW. Expecting heavy model support or deep lines of options is a bit naive/silly.

*cough* grey knights *cough* custodes *cough* chaos demons *cough* deathwatch *cough* death guard *cough* space wolves *cough* blood angels *cough* genestealer cults *cough* thousand sons *cough* basically every single one of the marine/chaos marine chapters who inexplicably got their own book instead of being rolled into a marine codex *COUGH*

Oh man. Had a really bad coughing fit there.

But yes, you are correct, that WOULD tick off harlequin players. It would tick off any player who plays an army when people say "yeah your army shouldn't really exist". Especially considering GW has given TONS of little offshoots of armies their own codexes on a regular basis all the time.

Reply by: Argive - click to view full reply 

92012

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 17:02:12

Post by: Argive

ThePorcupine wrote:
Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

Im really surprised a harlequin book exists at all.. they were always a CWE attache unit choice. Its a soupy faction like is as not.

Reply by: ThePorcupine - click to view full reply 

61532

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 17:26:47

Post by: ThePorcupine

 Argive wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

Im really surprised a harlequin book exists at all.. they were always a CWE attache unit choice. Its a soupy faction like is as not.

I don't understand how saying this but defending the dozen different marine offshoot codexes is not hypocritical.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 17:30:39

Post by: Daedalus81

ThePorcupine wrote:

 Argive wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

Im really surprised a harlequin book exists at all.. they were always a CWE attache unit choice. Its a soupy faction like is as not.

I don't understand how saying this but defending the dozen different marine offshoot codexes is not hypocritical.

The reality is that players WANT their special faction to be represented, but often it's really hard to make these into full fledged armies. There are always going to be some that just rely on soup to get all the tools. Harlequins will likely never ever be a "full" faction.

Reply by: bullyboy - click to view full reply 

85390

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 17:35:07

Post by: bullyboy

I have Harlequins and also feel that they are basically an addition to existing Aeldari factions. The models they have are quite good, and despite having so few unit options, play quite well. The codex did a great job overall, even though they had so little to work with. Great masques, WTs, relics and strats. There is so little that can really be added to the army, possibly Mimes, but there's just not much to be done.

Reply by: the_scotsman - click to view full reply 

35310

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 17:46:43

Post by: the_scotsman

 bullyboy wrote:
I have Harlequins and also feel that they are basically an addition to existing Aeldari factions. The models they have are quite good, and despite having so few unit options, play quite well. The codex did a great job overall, even though they had so little to work with. Great masques, WTs, relics and strats. There is so little that can really be added to the army, possibly Mimes, but there's just not much to be done.

The only problem I have with them atm is the base rules they get are sooooooooooooooo boring. Here are the unique mechanics harlequins lost between 7th and 8th:

1) Death Jesters used to enable you to move enemy units in a direction of your choosing. Now they're just a MASSIVELY overpriced shuriken cannon that might dish out a LD bonus to be summarily ignored by every faction in the game. They still used to suck, but at least they had the potential to be fun.

2) shadowseers used to allow you to stack up negative ld modifiers and pop enemy characters with Mirror of Minds. Now that power is wholly random, but several other armies have LD-targeting mortal wound powers...just not Harlequins.

3) Star bolas used to be a one-shot pop alpha strike weapon choice that you'd put on the whole unit (That's why both models in the kit can be equipped with them.) They are now a grenade type weapon, so only one model in the unit even CAN use them, and they're not one use only, they're just a fairly gakky grenade shooting attack.

4) You used to have an anti-tank pistol, a cheaper anti-elite pistol (which wounded infantry and monsters on a 2+ but didn't effect vehicles at all), and a free anti-infantry pistol to choose from. Now, you can "Upgrade" from S8 AP-4 Dd6 melta to...S4 Ap-3 Dd3. What the feth yall. They've had so many balance passes to fix neuro pistols.

5) you used to have an anti-elite/anti-character melee weapon (which caused instant death on a 6), an anti-tank melee weapon (which wounded any model on a 6 to hit, otherwise was just a chainsword), and an anti-horde melee weapon (gave you more attacks on the charge.) You now have three directly competing weapons that all have similar strengths and damage outputs, meaning one is always the most efficient weapon and the other two are always never-includes. Also, they all used to have unique rules, now they're flavors of boring-ass power weapon.

This isn't a situation where GW has given harlequins basically nothing since their inception, they've actively taken stuff away from them in a really obnoxious way.

Reply by: Argive - click to view full reply 

92012

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 18:15:25

Post by: Argive

ThePorcupine wrote:

 Argive wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

Im really surprised a harlequin book exists at all.. they were always a CWE attache unit choice. Its a soupy faction like is as not.

I don't understand how saying this but defending the dozen different marine offshoot codexes is not hypocritical.

And when exactly have I ever defended marine offshoot codexes?
I have said before that IOM is the owner of the most "bloat". Followed by chaos and then Eldar.

The reason is obviously more books to sell. Why make 1-2 big codexes if you can make 6 smaller codexes and charge the same price for all 6?

Reply by: Slayer-Fan123 - click to view full reply 

90435

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 18:25:40

Post by: Slayer-Fan123

ThePorcupine wrote:

 Argive wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

Im really surprised a harlequin book exists at all.. they were always a CWE attache unit choice. Its a soupy faction like is as not.

I don't understand how saying this but defending the dozen different marine offshoot codexes is not hypocritical.

I'm one of the people saying the offshoot Codices need to be eliminated for consolidation.

Really Harlequins didn't gain much as a codex. Troupe Master just became a separate dude, so that's basically just the vehicles and bikes.

Doesn't need to be it's own codex.

Reply by: ThePorcupine - click to view full reply 

61532

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 18:32:38

Post by: ThePorcupine

 bullyboy wrote:
I have Harlequins and also feel that they are basically an addition to existing Aeldari factions. The models they have are quite good, and despite having so few unit options, play quite well. The codex did a great job overall, even though they had so little to work with. Great masques, WTs, relics and strats. There is so little that can really be added to the army, possibly Mimes, but there's just not much to be done.

I don't buy that for a second. People think there isn't much to be done with Harlequins because GW never tried. If custodes didn't exist and someone said "Hey I think someone should make a custodes faction" you would likely hear "well there's not much you can do with them. They're basically marines but beefier. Why not just add a couple units to the existing marine codex. The same can be said about every chapter that got their own codex.

Creativity is not difficult. You just need someone who actually cares and is excited on the team.

Look. I'll rattle some ideas off the top of my head. It's not hard.

New troop choice. Mimes. Cheap groups of 10-20. They can infiltrate in. Their unique property is mimicking the number of attacks and weapon skill of anything they're in contact with. Unique. Flavorful. Opens up interesting counterplay to hordes of boyz or any other thing with tons of attacks.

New heavy choice. Some hover platform with a tall crescent obelisk sticking out of it. You would have to take them in pairs. And anytime your units would be shot while standing behind these units, if the shot goes through an imaginary line between the two you would be at an additional -1 to hit or +1 to your save or something. Basically a mobile forcefield. And you could switch it to an offensive mode to give your unit behind it +1 to hit or additional -1 to their AP shooting through it.

New fast attack choice that's basically a lone agent a la solitaire, but when they come into contact with a unit they sacrifice themselves to mind control a model for 1 turn.

New elite choice that makes itself immobile and swaps positions with an enemy unit it can see for a turn. Or opens a webway portal that can't be attacked anywhere on the map but it can't be used until next turn giving the opponent an opportunity to reposition/get ready.

Some sort of artillery unit that, instead of doing damage, mind controls a unit for your turn when it hits.

A flyer that inverts the enemy's weapon and ballistic skills around it. Something really tricksy that would make units with normally amazing accuracy miss (instead of hitting on 3+ you are missing on 3+) but would make negative modifiers work in your favor, and normally inaccurate models would suddenly become accurate.

A psychic power that has the two models go into combat as if they were adjacent to each other. You pick a melee weapon on the model and perform a number of attacks equal to your A stat to the enemy and vice vs. Like projecting a phantom of yourself to assassinate the enemy and they have a chance to fight back.

There's a lot you can do. GW is just lazy.

Reply by: Amishprn86 - click to view full reply 

56409

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 19:05:17

Post by: Amishprn86

 Burnage wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

Harlequins are in such a weird space and it's a shame that Phoenix Rising gave them literally nothing. I know it'd suck for pure Harlequins players, but I almost think they'd be better off if they were still just options in the Craftworlds/Drukhari codices.

There is enough Harlequins to keep them as a force, just b.c GW writes terrible rules doesn't mean you need to can them as an army, they have 8 unique units, technically thats more than some other armies.

They dont need more units, tho it would be nice to have more, they just need a points change, something super easy to do.

PS: They were an army long before many of these other armies with many more units that are missing, just B.c GW is terrible doesn't mean we should squat an army.

Reply by: ThePorcupine - click to view full reply 

61532

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 19:08:33

Post by: ThePorcupine

 Amishprn86 wrote:
they have 8 unique units, technically thats more than some other armies.

They dont need more units, tho it would be nice to have more, they just need a points change, something super easy to do.

I don't think that's true at all. What army has fewer than 8 units?

And I think the problem is the exact opposite. Could we use some point tweaks? Sure. But almost everything we have is useful in some fashion. What we need is more variety (more units). A lot lot LOT more variety.

Reply by: Mr Morden - click to view full reply 

30490

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 19:13:13

Post by: Mr Morden

BrianDavion wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I have heard that the new PA book is CSM/Sisters/And Guard. I think we are getting Fuilgrim too. CSM need a love bump. Like at the very least they need the +1 attack in the first round that all loyalist got. Then they also need something to be comparable to doctrines - perhaps with more of a CC focus. I think they will get custom traits at the very least.

Oddly, despite what looked like a teaser with the fleur de lis in it, and being a book named Faith and Fury, their list of included factions did not include us. On the upside, since they did say we would get something out of PA, that implies that that something isn't "plastic models and a codex", which is good for us IMO.

would you really want to get something for sisters this early? anything sisters get in PA is proably content that was cut from the codex to toss in another book. if stuff like PA is "DLC" sisters content in PA2 would be day 1 DLC

Surely its the same as the massive mass of Marine models and Supplements that came out straight after the actual Space Marine Codex and see no sign of slowing down - oh look more Marine stuff in PA2?

Not saying its a good thing for the reasons you state but its possible that GW will do it?

Reply by: Marin - click to view full reply 

120890

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 19:18:53

Post by: Marin

ThePorcupine wrote:
Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

I should not worry about that, Harlequins is army GW will expand sooner or latter.
What can help them in short term is point decrease on points. Troupe weapons can use the cut, so you can make more flexible detachments and also Starwaevers need the point cut.
There is no way SW coast 100 pts when we look what Impulsor is getting for the some price.

Reply by: Elbows - click to view full reply 

29836

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 19:20:26

Post by: Elbows

Porcupine, I appreciate your enthusiasm...but that's all it is. Your suggestions are not based on any fluff or lore, or any of the background behind the way Harlequins were originally presented. I'm sure the current codex is filled with some questionable ret-cons. You like Harlequins and that's cool, but you're just spit-balling turning a troupe of traveling actors/troublemakers into an army....and that's a serious stretch. It's equally as silly as a Grey Knights force showing up as an army...almost anywhere for any reason other than a massive Daemon uprising. In the original fluff it was a huge deal if a single squad of Grey Knights even appeared in a system...so what sense does it make to have a full army of them combating Orks or Eldar?

These are just desperate money-grabs...sacrificing lore/story for shifting grey plastic. Your suggestions would just be more egregious versions of that.

And regarding your earlier comments...yes I find almost everything you listed as a gimmick army, that could easily be combined into existing books.

Reply by: Mr Morden - click to view full reply 

30490

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 19:29:43

Post by: Mr Morden

Harlequins had a very early army list and look, act and play differently to other Eldar.

They have lost units - the original WD dex had:

Avatar leading Troupers
Death Jesters
High Avatar
High Warlock
Master Mime
Solitaires
PLUS D6 vehicles or robots from ANY army list.

When we consider that a single additional unit justifies entire suplementary codexes for a huge mass of Marines its depressing that anyone would question the legitmacy of this entire force that predates many subfactions having a dex.

Reply by: Apple fox - click to view full reply 

61850

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 19:34:32

Post by: Apple fox

 Elbows wrote:
Porcupine, I appreciate your enthusiasm...but that's all it is. Your suggestions are not based on any fluff or lore, or any of the background behind the way Harlequins were originally presented. I'm sure the current codex is filled with some questionable ret-cons. You like Harlequins and that's cool, but you're just spit-balling turning a troupe of traveling actors/troublemakers into an army....and that's a serious stretch. It's equally as silly as a Grey Knights force showing up as an army...almost anywhere for any reason other than a massive Daemon uprising. In the original fluff it was a huge deal if a single squad of Grey Knights even appeared in a system...so what sense does it make to have a full army of them combating Orks or Eldar?

These are just desperate money-grabs...sacrificing lore/story for shifting grey plastic. Your suggestions would just be more egregious versions of that.

And regarding your earlier comments...yes I find almost everything you listed as a gimmick army, that could easily be combined into existing books.

Maybe some is, but there is some precedent for them using craftworld grav tanks. If they have there own book, throw the grav tanks in there with a rule to make them a little unique. They are also presented as a force that could be seen on the battlefields in the size that the game represents.

In this case, I think giving them access to some of the craftworld units, in a fun and expanding on there fluff just a little would be great.
They have always worked very close with the craftworlds and can be shown as such with little effort expended.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Harlequins had a very early army list and look, act and play differently to other Eldar.

They have lost units - the original WD dex had:

Avatar leading Troupers
Death Jesters
High Avatar
High Warlock
Master Mime
Solitaires
PLUS D6 vehicles or robots from ANY army list.

When we consider that a single additional unit justifies entire suplementary codexes for a huge mass of Marines its depressing that anyone would question the legitmacy of this entire force that predates many subfactions having a dex.

I had try to find that original dex, but was unable to.

Reply by: Amishprn86 - click to view full reply 

56409

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 19:45:35

Post by: Amishprn86

ThePorcupine wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
they have 8 unique units, technically thats more than some other armies.

They dont need more units, tho it would be nice to have more, they just need a points change, something super easy to do.

I don't think that's true at all. What army has fewer than 8 units?

And I think the problem is the exact opposite. Could we use some point tweaks? Sure. But almost everything we have is useful in some fashion. What we need is more variety (more units). A lot lot LOT more variety.

Unique, not shared, all SM share many units, some only have 7-12 unique units themselves. Harlequins has others that GW decided not to make (and take away actually).

Why can't Aeldari share units like SM? Their codexs would look much bigger too.

Reply by: Slayer-Fan123 - click to view full reply 

90435

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 19:48:23

Post by: Slayer-Fan123

Dark Eldar vs Eldar is much akin to SM vs CSM. Main difference though is that the former two are functionally different and GW keeps missing the mark by just making CSM into Spiky Marines with less options.

Harlequins should be like Scions in the Guard codex. Sprinkle them where you feel like and you don't lose the bonus for the rest of the army, and if you go pure you get a certain bonus.

Reply by: Argive - click to view full reply 

92012

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 20:13:58

Post by: Argive

The idea that CWE and DE are somehow the same thing and should buddy up stems for the ynnari concept being rammed in... Thats like saying khorne berserkers might as well hang out with ultramarines with some space wolves and rubrics sprinkled in as one big happy family...

Reply by: Mr Morden - click to view full reply 

30490

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 20:37:07

Post by: Mr Morden

Apple fox wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Harlequins had a very early army list and look, act and play differently to other Eldar.

They have lost units - the original WD dex had:

Avatar leading Troupers
Death Jesters
High Avatar
High Warlock
Master Mime
Solitaires
PLUS D6 vehicles or robots from ANY army list.

When we consider that a single additional unit justifies entire suplementary codexes for a huge mass of Marines its depressing that anyone would question the legitmacy of this entire force that predates many subfactions having a dex.

I had try to find that original dex, but was unable to.

I have the WD and then the reprint in the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium

Its a good read with lots of great lore and images - far more than most Space Marine Chapters had until very recently. The Space Marine Army list in the same book is amusingly far more flexible but also more condensed than the current bloated mess.

One on ebay now ! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Warhammer-40-000-Compendium-White-Dwarf-Rules-Expansion/184010843595?hash=item2ad7e6a5cb:g:WpEAAOSwWZVdtZMJ

Reply by: Dysartes - click to view full reply 

21358

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 21:31:43

Post by: Dysartes

 Mr Morden wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Harlequins had a very early army list and look, act and play differently to other Eldar.

They have lost units - the original WD dex had:

Avatar leading Troupers
Death Jesters
High Avatar
High Warlock
Master Mime
Solitaires
PLUS D6 vehicles or robots from ANY army list.

When we consider that a single additional unit justifies entire suplementary codexes for a huge mass of Marines its depressing that anyone would question the legitmacy of this entire force that predates many subfactions having a dex.

I had try to find that original dex, but was unable to.

I have the WD and then the reprint in the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium

Its a good read with lots of great lore and images - far more than most Space Marine Chapters had until very recently. The Space Marine Army list in the same book is amusingly far more flexible but also more condensed than the current bloated mess.

One on ebay now ! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Warhammer-40-000-Compendium-White-Dwarf-Rules-Expansion/184010843595?hash=item2ad7e6a5cb:g:WpEAAOSwWZVdtZMJ

This is the list with the art for the Harlequin Land Raider, correct?

Reply by: harlokin - click to view full reply 

123046

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 21:52:10

Post by: harlokin

 Argive wrote:
The idea that CWE and DE are somehow the same thing and should buddy up stems for the ynnari concept being rammed in... Thats like saying khorne berserkers might as well hang out with ultramarines with some space wolves and rubrics sprinkled in as one big happy family...

No it's just not. A closer analogy would be the Soviets and the US fighting together against an alien invasion.

Asuryani and Drukhari are still Aeldari, regardless of the Ynnari, who I don't mind as a minor faction bit don't want them to be anything more than that.

Reply by: Mr Morden - click to view full reply 

30490

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 22:07:55

Post by: Mr Morden

 Dysartes wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Harlequins had a very early army list and look, act and play differently to other Eldar.

They have lost units - the original WD dex had:

Avatar leading Troupers
Death Jesters
High Avatar
High Warlock
Master Mime
Solitaires
PLUS D6 vehicles or robots from ANY army list.

When we consider that a single additional unit justifies entire suplementary codexes for a huge mass of Marines its depressing that anyone would question the legitmacy of this entire force that predates many subfactions having a dex.

I had try to find that original dex, but was unable to.

I have the WD and then the reprint in the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium

Its a good read with lots of great lore and images - far more than most Space Marine Chapters had until very recently. The Space Marine Army list in the same book is amusingly far more flexible but also more condensed than the current bloated mess.

One on ebay now ! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Warhammer-40-000-Compendium-White-Dwarf-Rules-Expansion/184010843595?hash=item2ad7e6a5cb:g:WpEAAOSwWZVdtZMJ

This is the list with the art for the Harlequin Land Raider, correct?

Yep as its an option in the army - although it might break down!

Reply by: Luke_Prowler - click to view full reply 

20901

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 23:07:02

Post by: Luke_Prowler

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Another week of tournaments where 75% of the top four placements were taken by marines. Any minute now that meta's gonna adjust and everyone's gonna figure out the trick to beating 'em!

I can almost guarantee a few gravitron moirax can table assault cent spam with speedbumps in between. People were so absolutely focused on IH until the nerf on 10/17. That's basically two weeks for people to see and play upcoming lists. No, I don't think that is a relevant amount of time for people to adjust to a unit that basically has not been seen for over 3 years and certainly not in the quantities taken.

I'm not proclaiming everything is "ok", but a lot of the current lists are super one dimensional. There are certainly stronger lists out there and there are potentially counters. Personally, snipers are a bigger problem for me.

And, not to mention, CA coming up, which can take some of the bite out. Especially if cult marines go to W2.

I don't know. the idea that there's some kind of hidden, unused anti-marine tactic that's never been found before seems dubious when most tournament lists were already focusing more toward anti-elite weapons than anti-horde even when marines were at their worst. There's never been a demand for flamers and heavy bolters as much as there was for plasma guns and their equivalent, and with smite spam being also prevalent along with other tactics already built around exploiting small model army's weaknesses (like surrounding), I find it hard to believe something going to be wrung out of the old codex that isn't already in use. I'm worried that if anything, list will become more one dimensional as people lean heavier into anti-meq at the expense of other options, or go full skew list with buying people under bodies.

I also hope that two wound cult units isn't true. I don't think people realize just how powerful a 100% increase in toughness against d1 weapons is. I did the math of an equal points of 25 ork boyz w/ nob vs 10 Khorne berzerkers with chain axe+ chain sword and the icon of wrath. If the orks get the charge, they get 12.7 wounds, going from a wiped squad to 6 marines and 1 wounded. Which can still kill 14 orks between the berserkers two attack phases (and note, this is without considering Legion/Clan traits). Meanwhile the orks get obliterated when charged, losing 17 orks to the first attack, and the 8 boy would get 2.9 on average. going from some sort of trade to losing. The difference is litreally orks going form wiping the squad to tying with the bezerkers and getting half it's points back to barely getting a 10th back if charged. And Berzerkers would get the least out of a wound increase.

Reply by: The Deer Hunter - click to view full reply 

92530

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 23:21:00

Post by: The Deer Hunter

After all, all the people who complaint want the same thing, more cheese for their army.

This is so sad.

Reply by: vipoid - click to view full reply 

53939

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 23:29:37

Post by: vipoid

ThePorcupine wrote:
Being a harlequin player, things are just depressing. Our army needs DOUBLE the number of units to be on part with the other tiny codexes of the game. And I have no doubt whatever psychic awakening book we get will be anemic as hell. They might give us one new character, dust their hands off, and call it a day. The problem with quins was never lack of rules or bad rules, it's the colossal lack of variety. It's truly amazing the harlequin codex was released the way it was.

"i know marines got 20 new books and 20 new units and have like 150 unit choices, but hey! This is basically your new updated codex! 8 units total! Enjoy your scraps and feth off so we can release more power armor."

A part of me wonders if Harlequins should have been combined with DE.

I know it's not an ideal solution, but at least the two combined might form something resembling a complete army.

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 23:48:18

Post by: Daedalus81

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

I don't know. the idea that there's some kind of hidden, unused anti-marine tactic that's never been found before seems dubious when most tournament lists were already focusing more toward anti-elite weapons than anti-horde even when marines were at their worst. There's never been a demand for flamers and heavy bolters as much as there was for plasma guns and their equivalent, and with smite spam being also prevalent along with other tactics already built around exploiting small model army's weaknesses (like surrounding), I find it hard to believe something going to be wrung out of the old codex that isn't already in use. I'm worried that if anything, list will become more one dimensional as people lean heavier into anti-meq at the expense of other options, or go full skew list with buying people under bodies.

Centurions and the new books create several issues not dealt with previously.

First, they're T5 so something like the disintegrator is suddenly 25% less effective. I have not seen anything in the way of hellblasters or any concentrated plasma for quite a while.

Second, they're 2+, which matters little on terminators it matters a ton here, because it takes so many more shots to reduce their effectiveness. There are few ap4 guns easily deployed meaning Cents have a save twice as good as marines in those scenarios.

Third, there is no way to bury them with bodies. If you can turn off overwatch even 120 swings from boys averages one. If you cant block overwatch? Dont even try.

Fourth, the Cents pack a gak ton of high quality attacks. 25 to a unit of 6 at S10 AP4 D3 and no minus to hit like thunderhammers, so knights are wiped of armor and wounded on 3s.

Fifth, the lists lack vehicles of any sort meaning lists packing haywire have tons of dead weight.

Sixth, eliminators keep the psykers from applying great pressure.

Seventh, there are several stratagems that help them get to where they're going.

Eighth, successor traits.

Ninth, four wounds is a difficult place to tackle. D6 weapons can leave a lot on the table. D2 is great, but unless its ap4 you're wounding on 3s if they dont transhuman and saving on 5s.

Moirax Gravitons are M14, so they should be able to keep them out of threat range easily barring a smash coming for you. 3 of them at 465 kill an entire unit of cents per turn. All while playing a list that has no long range anti-tank.

I would be gobsmacked if cent spam stayed.

Reply by: bullyboy - click to view full reply 

85390

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/07 23:56:31

Post by: bullyboy

Porcupine,
I really liked your viewpoint on Mimes, but everything else just didn't have any real substance. As I said, add Mimes, maybe a character or two and be done.

Reply by: Slayer-Fan123 - click to view full reply 

90435

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 00:08:04

Post by: Slayer-Fan123

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

I don't know. the idea that there's some kind of hidden, unused anti-marine tactic that's never been found before seems dubious when most tournament lists were already focusing more toward anti-elite weapons than anti-horde even when marines were at their worst. There's never been a demand for flamers and heavy bolters as much as there was for plasma guns and their equivalent, and with smite spam being also prevalent along with other tactics already built around exploiting small model army's weaknesses (like surrounding), I find it hard to believe something going to be wrung out of the old codex that isn't already in use. I'm worried that if anything, list will become more one dimensional as people lean heavier into anti-meq at the expense of other options, or go full skew list with buying people under bodies.

Centurions and the new books create several issues not dealt with previously.

First, they're T5 so something like the disintegrator is suddenly 25% less effective. I have not seen anything in the way of hellblasters or any concentrated plasma for quite a while.

Second, they're 2+, which matters little on terminators it matters a ton here, because it takes so many more shots to reduce their effectiveness. There are few ap4 guns easily deployed meaning Cents have a save twice as good as marines in those scenarios.

Third, there is no way to bury them with bodies. If you can turn off overwatch even 120 swings from boys averages one. If you cant block overwatch? Dont even try.

Fourth, the Cents pack a gak ton of high quality attacks. 25 to a unit of 6 at S10 AP4 D3 and no minus to hit like thunderhammers, so knights are wiped of armor and wounded on 3s.

Fifth, the lists lack vehicles of any sort meaning lists packing haywire have tons of dead weight.

Sixth, eliminators keep the psykers from applying great pressure.

Seventh, there are several stratagems that help them get to where they're going.

Eighth, successor traits.

Ninth, four wounds is a difficult place to tackle. D6 weapons can leave a lot on the table. D2 is great, but unless its ap4 you're wounding on 3s if they dont transhuman and saving on 5s.

Moirax Gravitons are M14, so they should be able to keep them out of threat range easily barring a smash coming for you. 3 of them at 465 kill an entire unit of cents per turn. All while playing a list that has no long range anti-tank.

I would be gobsmacked if cent spam stayed.

They literally just became decent again. Heaven forbid it stay that way huh? Issues never seen before?

Just remember the same weapons that were effective before are still just as effective basically: consistent D2 and/or high AP.

Reply by: Amishprn86 - click to view full reply 

56409

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 00:14:44

Post by: Amishprn86

 bullyboy wrote:
Porcupine,
I really liked your viewpoint on Mimes, but everything else just didn't have any real substance. As I said, add Mimes, maybe a character or two and be done.

Yeah i play a lot of harlequins, another troop choice like Mimes would be perfect for them (I even play them mono in ITC). Its really just some point costs that are bad right now, like Void/star weavers, troops, and Shadowseer.

Mimes should be 5++, 2A 1 in 5 can have 1 melee weapon and 1 range weapon, 8ppm, with troupes going down a point or 2 and mimes as our chaff filler you could easily play 2 battalions and feel GOOD (not tournament winning, but feel good playing them).

If i could get it my way, i would do Mimes and a Flyer (A small bomber flyer that can hit up to 3 units and makes them all -1 BS, kinda like LoS blocking bombers of the old wars, with 2 Shuriken cannons that can be replaced with either 2 Pris or 2 HWC, give it the turn before and after rule that cwe has)

Reply by: Slayer-Fan123 - click to view full reply 

90435

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 00:16:39

Post by: Slayer-Fan123

I wouldn't mind Harlequins being 12 each but 11 would be pushing it on a 4++ model.

Reply by: Burnage - click to view full reply 

112260

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 00:50:03

Post by: Burnage

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I wouldn't mind Harlequins being 12 each but 11 would be pushing it on a 4++ model.

Not quite a one-to-one comparison, but Wracks are only 9 points and are very commonly 4++/6+++. Hell, Wyches are 8 points and get a 4++ once they're in close combat.

Reply by: Slayer-Fan123 - click to view full reply 

90435

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 00:54:52

Post by: Slayer-Fan123

 Burnage wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I wouldn't mind Harlequins being 12 each but 11 would be pushing it on a 4++ model.

Not quite a one-to-one comparison, but Wracks are only 9 points and are very commonly 4++/6+++. Hell, Wyches are 8 points and get a 4++ once they're in close combat.

Wracks have super little movement without a Venom, but otherwise that's a healthy comparison.

Reply by: Amishprn86 - click to view full reply 

56409

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 01:12:15

Post by: Amishprn86

I'm so tired of showing the math, but equal points in Wyches compare to Quins (melee not pistols) wyches are normally always better.

10 models vs 5, 6++/6+++ is better than 5 models with 4++ (on average) for survivability and thats not with the wyches being in combat, as soon as the wyches are in combat they are just more survivable no matter what (10 wounds at 4++ and 6+++), given they have equal points, you get double the wounds, but yes each wych is less str OR less attacks but b.c of traits and drugs they are not both. Wyches equal as much damage as Troupes do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Had some fun, made a new harlequin flyer lol.

https://imgur.com/RTmKFuc

Reply by: the_scotsman - click to view full reply 

35310

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 01:30:55

Post by: the_scotsman

Lets see...

Shield Captain
Vexilla
Custode Guard
Allarus
Bikes
Dreadnought
Land Raider

That's 7. Am I missing any?

And if you're saying unique units, I mean...MOST of the marine subdexes...

DW have like...3.

Reply by: Galas - click to view full reply 

110703

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 01:53:44

Post by: Galas

the_scotsman wrote:
Lets see...

Shield Captain
Vexilla
Custode Guard
Allarus
Bikes
Dreadnought
Land Raider

That's 7. Am I missing any?

And if you're saying unique units, I mean...MOST of the marine subdexes...

DW have like...3.

Yeah, the Special Character and the pillar men. I mean, the skirt elites.
But to be honest Custodes arent a fair comparison because half of their army is forgeworld. They just dont work without it, not because they are bad, wich they are, but because they have no options or tactics.
Something similar hapenns with Mechanicus but they have more stuff in gw codex.

Reply by: ThePorcupine - click to view full reply 

61532

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 03:37:46

Post by: ThePorcupine

Yes FW stuff counts because it's still usable in matched play. As far as I know harlequins have zero FW units.

Reply by: Hellebore - click to view full reply 

551

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 03:54:42

Post by: Hellebore

It's always an unfair comparison when you look at marines vs xenos.

GW Invents units willy nilly when it comes to justifying separate marine books.

If Harlequins were given the same effort and time As a marine faction you bet they'd have a huge variety of units.

The perspective is Ass about - their codex's lack of units isnt a justification for them not being a separate army, it's an indictment of GW under resourcing non marine development.

If you want to get technical, Harlequins had a separate army list in 1st ed back when the custodes was represented by a single entry of a leather daddy in a dong helmet...

GW turned a 1 model unit into an army because they decided to expend the effort.

Harlequins don't even have all the infantry units they've historically possessed (mimes and great Harlequins).

Go back to 3rd ed 40k and almost all the 'unique' blood angels units that exist now were generic - sanguinary guard were bodyguard squads.

Armies in 40k are as unique as GW wants them to be, their current status is entirely about GWs commitment rather than any intrinsic quality

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 03:59:54

Post by: Daedalus81

Hellebore wrote:

If you want to get technical, Harlequins had a separate army list in 1st ed back when the custodes was represented by a single entry of a leather daddy in a dong helmet...

Holy gak I'm dying.

If there was any time we might actually see more Xenos models it is now. I'm sure GW still has Primaris Bikes / Flyers, but at the rate they're going they will need to tap innto other areas..

Reply by: wuestenfux - click to view full reply 

4139

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 06:34:45

Post by: wuestenfux

 bullyboy wrote:
I have Harlequins and also feel that they are basically an addition to existing Aeldari factions. The models they have are quite good, and despite having so few unit options, play quite well. The codex did a great job overall, even though they had so little to work with. Great masques, WTs, relics and strats. There is so little that can really be added to the army, possibly Mimes, but there's just not much to be done.

Mimes and Wraithlords, both in the experimental codex of Gav Thorpe, would have been a good add-on to get more variety into the army.
One unit, the Voidreaver, is basically not used at all.

Reply by: Galas - click to view full reply 

110703

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 07:10:28

Post by: Galas

Hellebore wrote:


Armies in 40k are as unique as GW wants them to be, their current status is entirely about GWs commitment rather than any intrinsic quality

At the end of the day this is the only objetive truth, and we can see it in AoS with whole armies made out of one model concept

Back in the day Necrons were also 4 units. All this people that tries to justify their desire for the toys of other kids to be taken away with the justification of a fluff that literally only exist to justify the perpetuity of the conflict every simgle faction takes part in comes, at best, as hipocrites for selecting the pieces of fluff or rules support history that support their view and ignore the rest. And at worst, as very petty people to wich their subjetive view of how the game should be organized comes at the expense of peoples time, money and miniatures wich existence doesnt affect them more than a small tree in their neighbourd backyard. .

And as a Tau, Dark Angel, and Adeptus Custodes player, Im just sick of those people.

Reply by: An Actual Englishman - click to view full reply 

117801

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 07:11:16

Post by: An Actual Englishman

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

If you want to get technical, Harlequins had a separate army list in 1st ed back when the custodes was represented by a single entry of a leather daddy in a dong helmet...

Holy gak I'm dying.

If there was any time we might actually see more Xenos models it is now. I'm sure GW still has Primaris Bikes / Flyers, but at the rate they're going they will need to tap innto other areas..

All current information points to this being incorrect. GW have no interest in releasing anything but Marine models. Once they’ve tapped out on their Primaris, they’ll no doubt do more CSM stuff (EC, WE perhaps). Xenos are, as always, fethed.

Reply by: Marin - click to view full reply 

120890

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 07:43:43

Post by: Marin

The Deer Hunter wrote:
After all, all the people who complaint want the same thing, more cheese for their army.

This is so sad.

Yea, it`s sad that we want units to do 10% of that they can in the lore. So unfair.

Reply by: Apple fox - click to view full reply 

61850

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 08:26:55

Post by: Apple fox

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

If you want to get technical, Harlequins had a separate army list in 1st ed back when the custodes was represented by a single entry of a leather daddy in a dong helmet...

Holy gak I'm dying.

If there was any time we might actually see more Xenos models it is now. I'm sure GW still has Primaris Bikes / Flyers, but at the rate they're going they will need to tap innto other areas..

All current information points to this being incorrect. GW have no interest in releasing anything but Marine models. Once they’ve tapped out on their Primaris, they’ll no doubt do more CSM stuff (EC, WE perhaps). Xenos are, as always, fethed.

Sadly when reading stuff it feels that way, even when Xenos get something its half the effort of other things :(

Reply by: Tyel - click to view full reply 

101163

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 08:30:51

Post by: Tyel

Its been said, but I find "they can't add new units, it isn't in the fluff" to be a weird decision. Look at... well, almost every new unit from the the year 2000 onwards.

They could easily do a second wave of Harlequin releases - they just need a good idea. I don't think you will ever see mimes, or at least how they are traditionally described, because they amount to "Troupes -1" and that isn't all that interesting for GW. But who knows.

At the same time, GW considers soup entirely legitimate, and sometimes is keen on conversions, and they have I believe expressed that they don't like doing pure faction mirrors of units. So while it would potentially be cool, DE are unlikely to ever get say Castigators/Dark Wraithguard, because... we have Wraithguard. You could just paint some CWE models up in DE colours and ally them in if you really wanted to. The issue is some people think this is awful.

Reply by: Karol - click to view full reply 

120227

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 08:42:14

Post by: Karol

Considering the whole primaris thing, I think the argument of GW not being able to add stuff to the model line, because of lore is not defendable.

What is stoping GW from , lets say, puting a mime option in the harlequin rules, and use the regular harlequins box to represent them?

Reply by: BrianDavion - click to view full reply 

79409

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 08:44:00

Post by: BrianDavion

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

If you want to get technical, Harlequins had a separate army list in 1st ed back when the custodes was represented by a single entry of a leather daddy in a dong helmet...

Holy gak I'm dying.

If there was any time we might actually see more Xenos models it is now. I'm sure GW still has Primaris Bikes / Flyers, but at the rate they're going they will need to tap innto other areas..

All current information points to this being incorrect. GW have no interest in releasing anything but Marine models. Once they’ve tapped out on their Primaris, they’ll no doubt do more CSM stuff (EC, WE perhaps). Xenos are, as always, fethed.

except we have gotten new xenos armies of late, GSCs and Harli's are, effectively, very new armies. that said, what we can detirmine is that GW tends to prefer low hanging fruit with a built in fanbase that have a long history as part of the setting, (often ones that had models once upon a time) I can't think of any obvious new Xenos stuff, save maybe eldar exodites. at the same time I really can't imagine anything new for the IoM eaither.
I suspect we're not likely to see new factions for awhile. PA strikes me as evidance of GW "consolidating their position" taking stock giving new stuff to some older factions that need it. etc

Reply by: Marin - click to view full reply 

120890

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 08:44:31

Post by: Marin

Tyel wrote:
Its been said, but I find "they can't add new units, it isn't in the fluff" to be a weird decision. Look at... well, almost every new unit from the the year 2000 onwards.

They could easily do a second wave of Harlequin releases - they just need a good idea. I don't think you will ever see mimes, or at least how they are traditionally described, because they amount to "Troupes -1" and that isn't all that interesting for GW. But who knows.

At the same time, GW considers soup entirely legitimate, and sometimes is keen on conversions, and they have I believe expressed that they don't like doing pure faction mirrors of units. So while it would potentially be cool, DE are unlikely to ever get say Castigators/Dark Wraithguard, because... we have Wraithguard. You could just paint some CWE models up in DE colours and ally them in if you really wanted to. The issue is some people think this is awful.

It`s reasonable to expect aeldar to make temporal alliances to beat the opponents.
But i really think GW want Harlequins to be good army and will do something about that.
I really want them to make that gate useful, it really have possibility to make the army more interesting and it can help alot.

Reply by: Apple fox - click to view full reply 

61850

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 08:45:49

Post by: Apple fox

Tyel wrote:
Its been said, but I find "they can't add new units, it isn't in the fluff" to be a weird decision. Look at... well, almost every new unit from the the year 2000 onwards.

They could easily do a second wave of Harlequin releases - they just need a good idea. I don't think you will ever see mimes, or at least how they are traditionally described, because they amount to "Troupes -1" and that isn't all that interesting for GW. But who knows.

At the same time, GW considers soup entirely legitimate, and sometimes is keen on conversions, and they have I believe expressed that they don't like doing pure faction mirrors of units. So while it would potentially be cool, DE are unlikely to ever get say Castigators/Dark Wraithguard, because... we have Wraithguard. You could just paint some CWE models up in DE colours and ally them in if you really wanted to. The issue is some people think this is awful.

I feel this is sorta a continuation of no mini no rules, They cannot have craftworld stuff as that would mean less sales later if they expand the army. Even when they make more sense to have some of the craftworld stuff. To at least fill out the army and give them a bit more on there own.
Soup and ally rules are just thrown out there with little effort, and trying to be too many things i feel. And i think leads to less player creativity than if some units where put into these Factions with some form of effort.

Reply by: Marin - click to view full reply 

120890

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 08:56:16

Post by: Marin

Apple fox wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Its been said, but I find "they can't add new units, it isn't in the fluff" to be a weird decision. Look at... well, almost every new unit from the the year 2000 onwards.

They could easily do a second wave of Harlequin releases - they just need a good idea. I don't think you will ever see mimes, or at least how they are traditionally described, because they amount to "Troupes -1" and that isn't all that interesting for GW. But who knows.

At the same time, GW considers soup entirely legitimate, and sometimes is keen on conversions, and they have I believe expressed that they don't like doing pure faction mirrors of units. So while it would potentially be cool, DE are unlikely to ever get say Castigators/Dark Wraithguard, because... we have Wraithguard. You could just paint some CWE models up in DE colours and ally them in if you really wanted to. The issue is some people think this is awful.

I feel this is sorta a continuation of no mini no rules, They cannot have craftworld stuff as that would mean less sales later if they expand the army. Even when they make more sense to have some of the craftworld stuff. To at least fill out the army and give them a bit more on there own.
Soup and ally rules are just thrown out there with little effort, and trying to be too many things i feel. And i think leads to less player creativity than if some units where put into these Factions with some form of effort.

Letting them mix together will create balance issues, led`s not forget what Ynnari did to dark reapers and spears.

Reply by: Apple fox - click to view full reply 

61850

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 09:22:34

Post by: Apple fox

Marin wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Its been said, but I find "they can't add new units, it isn't in the fluff" to be a weird decision. Look at... well, almost every new unit from the the year 2000 onwards.

They could easily do a second wave of Harlequin releases - they just need a good idea. I don't think you will ever see mimes, or at least how they are traditionally described, because they amount to "Troupes -1" and that isn't all that interesting for GW. But who knows.

At the same time, GW considers soup entirely legitimate, and sometimes is keen on conversions, and they have I believe expressed that they don't like doing pure faction mirrors of units. So while it would potentially be cool, DE are unlikely to ever get say Castigators/Dark Wraithguard, because... we have Wraithguard. You could just paint some CWE models up in DE colours and ally them in if you really wanted to. The issue is some people think this is awful.

I feel this is sorta a continuation of no mini no rules, They cannot have craftworld stuff as that would mean less sales later if they expand the army. Even when they make more sense to have some of the craftworld stuff. To at least fill out the army and give them a bit more on there own.
Soup and ally rules are just thrown out there with little effort, and trying to be too many things i feel. And i think leads to less player creativity than if some units where put into these Factions with some form of effort.

Letting them mix together will create balance issues, led`s not forget what Ynnari did to dark reapers and spears.

This is why you put those units in the book, balanced around that book and what is in that book and how they work. Ynnari is mostly another GW not very good at this situation. Its a continuing issue of no one really knows what direction 40k is going. And seems like the rules people have to tie it all in together and get it to work.

Reply by: Karol - click to view full reply 

120227

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 09:29:16

Post by: Karol

I wonder if GW design just went ham with Inari rules, when they initialy wrote them. No testing for options, souping etc. Just wrote down what they thought would be cold. And then went suprised pikatchu, when dark reapers were doing milion extra turns.

IH rules seemed to have been like that too. I don't know what they tested them with, but it looks like they checked them with reavers or something like that.

Reply by: Marin - click to view full reply 

120890

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 10:59:09

Post by: Marin

Karol wrote:
I wonder if GW design just went ham with Inari rules, when they initialy wrote them. No testing for options, souping etc. Just wrote down what they thought would be cold. And then went suprised pikatchu, when dark reapers were doing milion extra turns.

IH rules seemed to have been like that too. I don't know what they tested them with, but it looks like they checked them with reavers or something like that.

As far as i know Ynnari rules were ported from 7, where the designers made them to be closer to the lore.
Ynnari become problem with stacking of rules and point decreases on some units, something what we see in much bigger scale in SM releases.
That is the reason i mostly like PA, because it give extra rules, without anything that is broken or obviously better than the codex.
What i don`t like is that most of the worst aspects did not become much better and viable, but maybe they will do something in CA(i doubt it).

Reply by: Daedalus81 - click to view full reply 

35086

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 12:58:38

Post by: Daedalus81

BrianDavion wrote:


except we have gotten new xenos armies of late, GSCs and Harli's are, effectively, very new armies. that said, what we can detirmine is that GW tends to prefer low hanging fruit with a built in fanbase that have a long history as part of the setting, (often ones that had models once upon a time) I can't think of any obvious new Xenos stuff, save maybe eldar exodites. at the same time I really can't imagine anything new for the IoM eaither.
I suspect we're not likely to see new factions for awhile. PA strikes me as evidance of GW "consolidating their position" taking stock giving new stuff to some older factions that need it. etc

That's the problem with xenos scum. If it's not their xenos scum then its ignored, like xenos scum.

Reply by: the_scotsman - click to view full reply 

35310

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 13:13:17

Post by: the_scotsman

Tyel wrote:
Its been said, but I find "they can't add new units, it isn't in the fluff" to be a weird decision. Look at... well, almost every new unit from the the year 2000 onwards.

They could easily do a second wave of Harlequin releases - they just need a good idea. I don't think you will ever see mimes, or at least how they are traditionally described, because they amount to "Troupes -1" and that isn't all that interesting for GW. But who knows.

At the same time, GW considers soup entirely legitimate, and sometimes is keen on conversions, and they have I believe expressed that they don't like doing pure faction mirrors of units. So while it would potentially be cool, DE are unlikely to ever get say Castigators/Dark Wraithguard, because... we have Wraithguard. You could just paint some CWE models up in DE colours and ally them in if you really wanted to. The issue is some people think this is awful.

Also....are they not in the fluff?

Special Characters:

Iyanna Arienal. Special Shadowseer named character. Appears in a bunch of lore.

Motley. Special Troupe Master named character. Appears in Path of the Eldar.

Master Mime. In original 2nd ed codex.

Mimes. In original 2nd ed codex.

Webway Guardians. Literally every description of the perils of the black library references terrible automata guardians. Similar to how the Harlequins used to have access to Vypers in 2nd edition and now that has been replaced with the Voidweaver, they also used to have access to the Eldar Dreadnought, and conversions of Wraithlords with the harlequin bike face plate were extremely common. Make them a Killa Kan/Penitent Engine style light walker unit that can infiltrate, give it a wraithbone marionette aesthetic, with a Puppetmaster character who acts as a squad leader and tie several of the unit's special abilities to him staying alive.

Reply by: Mr Morden - click to view full reply 

30490

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 13:30:32

Post by: Mr Morden

There is a vast amount of wonderful of unseen units and characters for all non-Marine factions

There are a very few Marine units not in the game and they are in Chapters that are constantly ignored because of the Wolves and Angels always "need" to have new stuff.

Of course what happens is GW ignores all the other factions and makes more Marines - always.

Reply by: Karol - click to view full reply 

120227

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 13:55:36

Post by: Karol

But do they get new stuff? SW got a primaris Lt as their 8th model. DA too. GK got voldus, BA got an Lt and a termintor captin maybe?

That is hardly back breaking number of models to design. Comparing to that GSC got a whole new line. eldar got a unit and banshee queen, dark eldar got the incubi king and incubi.

Technicly besides totaly new armies like SoB or GSC, no one is getting a lot of new models.

am not even sure if GW didn't produce more models for AoS in the last 2 years. Heck they produced like 30+ models for mini games, few people play. How much time was spend on making models for that whole blackstone game, and how many people play it comparing to a normal w40k faction?

If they took the chaos stuff out of it, and made a renegade army out of it, the sells would be much better.

Reply by: PenitentJake - click to view full reply 

120048

Phoenix rising is a crap book.  @ 2019/11/08 15:45:48

Post by: PenitentJake

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

If you want to get technical, Harlequins had a separate army list in 1st ed back when the custodes was represented by a single entry of a leather daddy in a dong helmet...

Holy gak I'm dying.

If there was any time we might actually see more Xenos models it is now. I'm sure GW still has Primaris Bikes / Flyers, but at the rate they're going they will need to tap innto other areas..

All current information points to this being incorrect. GW have no interest in releasing anything but Marine models. Once they’ve tapped out on their Primaris, they’ll no doubt do more CSM stuff (EC, WE perhaps). Xenos are, as always, fethed.

So look, here's the evidence you say doesn't exist: GW just released an Elder vs Eldar box with a pure Eldar supplement after resculpting four eldar units in plastic. Also, December's PA is nids- sure there will be some marine content, but there will be Xenos content too.

How many space marines are there in Blackstone Fortress again? Oh yeah, none. The army that's being released this month... Sure, not Xenos, but not Space Marine either, right?

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Xenos aren't under-supported- they are... So far. But it is absolutely ridiculous of you to claim that GW has no interest in releasing anything but space marines the month after a major eldar release and the month before new content for Nids.

Back to Harlequins- remember the jetbikes with the sculpted mask canopies? I remember walkers too, but I don't remember if they were actual models or kitbashes of Wrathlords and sculpted bike canopies. Either way, they looked AMAZING and I wish we would get them back.

Also, please remember that codices are more than units. Sure, Quins only have 8 units, but having a dex is what gives them Masque forms, WL Traits, Strats, and Relics. They either wouldn't have any, or at least they would have fewer if they got rolled into someone else's dex.

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