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I'm gonna say CWE got screwed. It's a "rich get richer" type book. Part of the reason everybody loves the later edition 8th codices is that the internal balance is better than the earlier ones -- even the relatively weaker units and traits aren't garbage and can be played in friendly games. Here, CWE didn't get that fix. For all the complaints about the CQC-focused Kabal traits, GW did the exact same thing with most of the exarch powers. So much false choice, IMO much more on the CWE side than on the DE side (and that's how it's been all edition).
So yeah -- if this is my "codex update", and I agree with Daedalus that it basically is (no way does GW give a *gasp* Xenos army more than one significant rules update in 18 months), then I'm pretty disappointed, because I don't think I'm on the level of Codex: Orks or Codex: Dark Eldar, let alone the Space Marines books/supplements.
Tyel wrote: Its incredibly thin.
From a DE perspective you get five pages, covering 2 datasheets and 3 sets of traits, almost all of which are worse than options you already have outside of niche cases (the as mentioned test of skill flyers for instance). There may be options for pure mix and match - but at the cost of giving up chapter specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems. Labyrinthine Cunning, Vect, Living Muse? That's a lot to give up unless you are having two kabal detachments (and I know many do for flayed skull, but still.)
Its unclear anything that wasn't viable before has been made so by this addition. So it isn't very interesting from a design perspective.
For CWE its a similar story. Okay, its even more unclear why you wouldn't max out your Crimson Hunter Exarchs - but the bulk of the rest is just fluffy sidegrades, and the successor craftworld traits as a whole are marginal. It may be worth getting cover and another ability rather than -1 to hit outside 12 but its not obviously game changing.
Ynnari cost reductions were obvious - but it doesn't change the fact the faction has been cut off at the knees. Funner to play casually - but not influencing the meta.
As for the fluff there is very little here.
For the sake of those without the book and/or familiarity with DE this is what is available:
PICK TWO
1) -1 ld bubble from DE units (no self-stack)
2) Fall back & Charge; One mortal wound on a 6 when enemies charge any number of units
3) Lose only one model to morale
4) Advance and charge rerolls; unmod 6s to hit in melee auto wounds (not vs VEHICLE/TITAN)
5) +3" Move to FLY models
6) Reroll 1s for FNP; Units w/o FNP gain it
7) Unmod 6s to wound with poison is +1 Damage (not on artefacts)
8) Deepstrike more out of webway portal
-- No specific relics, strats, traits
Versus:
Black Heart Tactic: +1 to Power from Pain (better than the first half of 4 above); Units w/o FNP gain it
Relic : Reroll 1s to wound w/i 6''
Trait: Gain CP on a 6 for each CP used
Strat: Vect
Flayed Skull Tactic: +3" Move to FLY Models; FLY Models (or embarkees) ignore cover and reroll 1s to hit w/ RF Relic: 4++ after shadowfield fails
Trait: +1S +1A when charged or charging
Strat: +1 to Shoot FLY
Poisoned Tongue Tactic: Reroll 1s to wound for melee and poison
Relic: Meh pistol
Trait: Use WL leadership w/i 12"
Strat: Re-deploy 3 units before start of battle
Obsidian Rose Tactic: +6" to Assault, RF, and Heavy
Relic: 3+ Save (regular) and -1 to be hit in melee
Trait: +1 Damage for WL Strat: Feeling models shoot or fight - if they kill something then none flee
To me is seems you'd still be using Black Heart for Ravagers and Vect, but there are other facets that could potentially be exploited for maybe some interesting melee or poison spam.
I don't think any Eldar needed buffs other than Ynnari getting a little more breathing room.
My night lords already get #1 on that list. If gw would add #4 (which we had at the end of 7th) I'd be thrilled. Wb players would probably take any ONE of those.
So what are you complaining about?
That they are rubbish and don't work very well. I mean, #1 is already the Dark Creed Coven trait and people have tried it, it doesn't have much effect, not to mention the entire army gets that from turn 5 anyway thanks to Power from Pain. Daedalus description of #4 is a little disingenuous, it's not straight up reroll Advance and Charge, it's to do it from turn 1 because we get that through our Power from Pain from turn 2 onwards and this army is rarely in a position to charge turn 1 anyway. The real problem is that these are Kabal triats, and the subfaction has no dedicated combat units that would want to get that close to your opponent except for Incubi and Mandrakes, neither of which get a trait.
The point is that ALL night lords get is #1 which, yes, doesn't do much and de can take that or any other trait PLUS another trait from the list.
Also last I checked no one but eldar players thought they needed more useful traits, strategems, etc. Eldar are pretty good and have been for a few editions. If they got the full sm treatment they would be broken.
Maybe eldar didn't get ad much help because they didn't need as much help.
Yes, night lords trait is bad (I know, my Coven gets exactly, exactly the same trait, with no additional rules at all) but that is not the NL trait. It doesn't stack at all, it's only -1.
Realistically, for DE, PA offers 3 things.
1) better rules for drazar, incubi, and the ability to take the passable Ynnari hqs as HQs, which is nice because you literally cannot take two battalions of the same DE splinter faction without taking one of those. We get 1 HQ choice. Yippee.
2) One new viable chapter trait for Wych Cults that competes with Cursed Blade and Red Grief. Test of Skill+Slashing Impact legitimately does help with many of the problems wyches have in this meta, namely the fact that they a dedicated melee unit get their gak absolutely smashed by a space marine unit who gets full effectiveness out to 30" range.
3) one new viable chapter trait for Coven in the form of the two +1 to wound shooting traits. It is definitely worth giving up the prophets of flesh trait with the right army composition, namely a Venomspam and Talos build.
There are a couple other combos a casual player can build around, but if you play competitively (and now that intercessors and repulsors are a tournament tier list that is most games I play at this point, because every marine player has just kind of accumulated those over the course of the edition. (
Wytch traits don`t look bad on paper:
Test of skills look good for bikes - wounding T7 vehicles on 4 and T8 on 5;
The art of pain - extra round power of pain.
For wytch lovers - the 3++ in close combat also look interesting
Maybe you have to test it before writting it out. Maybe it`s not top notch competitive, but i was going to try it if i was DE player.
I have tested several of the Wych combos, I play wych cult heavy lists with my DE pretty exclusively.
One of the big problems with this release is that the current base obsessions are pretty good, and that because the already small Deldar army list has been needlessly trisected, we actually get less of the usual WL traits/Strats/etc that people expect, so losing that one extra relic/strat/trait from the base book obsessions is a bigger deal.
It's a bit like if SM buildabear tactics had to entirely give up super doctrines+Supplement content to use them....there would just be no way that any combo of successor traits would add up to EVERYTHING in the IH supplement. It's a bit less stark for DE, but still as someone above outlined, Black Heart kabal for instance comes with
-The most important stratagem in the entire book
-Hands down the best kabal relic
-the best Kabal warlord trait.
Even if it had no army benefit, at all, I would consider Black Heart's relic, WL and Strat worth more than any combination of 2 kabal traits.
Right out of the bat, the following Wych Cult traits are absolute crap, inarguably:
-Trophy Takers. Morale does not matter in 8th. It is basically never worth building your army around.
-The Art of Pain. Treating the battle round as 1 higher but ONLY when you are already within 1" removes the biggest possible benefit of this trait, which is being able to re-roll charges turn 1. So what this trait boils down to is +1WS on turn 2. Berserk Fugue mathmatically works out to be this, except all the time, AND it stacks with the +1 to hit that we already get from PFP turn 3. So Art of Pain is worse Berserk fugue.
-Stimulant Innovators. Being able to use a fairly poor stratagem for cheaper CP is not worth one of your traits. I can see the argument for the Coven trait that lets you use the fairly good Torturer's Craft strat for 1CP instead of 2, but Hyperstimm Backlash is really quite crap - it basically is a stratagem that only works on 1, maybe 2 of the units you have on the board. The best use of this is a 1CP strataem to give a unit +1A for 1 turn...and then give them mortal wounds. Hmm.
Further, Acrobatic Display can't be used with other traits, and Berserk Fugue and Precise Killers cannot be used together.
That means there are only 6 possible combinations of the semi-decent or better traits for custom wych cults (Excluding Berserk Fugue+Precise Killers, but then adding Acrobatic Display).
Precise Killers, Berserk Fugue, and Slashing Impact are all direct damage increases.
Precise Killers: 1/6 of your wounds are 1/6 deadlier against all targets with 5+ armor or better (wyches can only have -1AP, after all). Pros: Works on charges. Cons: less effective than Berserk Fugue, much less effective than Slashing Impact vs most targets. 10% damage increase vs GEQ, 25% vs MEQ.
Berserk Fugue: Flat 16.7% damage increase against all targets. Pros: reliable damage increase as opposed to the variable increase of Precise Killers. Cons: Always worse than slashing impact, also only works on the charge. Also, works on vehicles, which Slashing does not.
Slashing Impact: Each charging model deals .333 mortal wounds in addition to regular damage. This is a 50% damage boost vs GEQ for basic wyches, 150% damage boost vs MEQ.
And then we get to Test of Skill, the unique utility of which when applied to Flyers has already been talked about. Flyers are the only <wych cult> anti-vehicle unit in the game, and besides Test of Skill every single other wych trait in the game is a melee-only bonus. So even if ToS did NOTHING for other models in the wych arsenal (which it does not, it's quite solid on many Cult units) it would be a thing to consider for almost every WC focused army list out there that wants to hurt tanks.
IMO, Test of Skill+Slashing Impact would seem to be the best combination of 2 traits into nearly every meta out there, unless you have absolutely no flyers, in which case you might consider Berserk Fugue+Slashing Impact.
So now let's talk about Acrobatic Display. IMO this trait is competing against only one other trait as the "Defensive Wych Cult trait" - Cursed Blade. CB has an offensive component in its +1S, but its big draw is the loss of only 1 model to morale, which allows a cult player to field maxed out units. You can cram up to 12 bikes, 15 hellions, and 20 wyches into a single unit, which is amazing for Combat Drug efficiency, Stratagem efficiency, etc, but only when wiping half the unit doesn't mean the other half is gone.
What Acrobatic offers over CB supposedly is staying power, upping Wyches save vs Fight Phase wounds by 16%. But CB's offensive component means that more opponents are dead before they get to swing back against you.
Take the following situation: 10 Wyches charge 10 Kabalites, first with Cursed Blade then with Acrobatic Display. How do they do between their first fight phase and their next fight phase?
10 CB wyches kill 3.1 tacticals with their 30 attacks. Round to 3. 10 AD wyches kill 2.2 tacticals with their 30 attacks. Round to 2. 7 remaining tacticals attack the CB wyches back with 14 attacks, killing 3.1 in return. 8 remaining tacticals attack the AD wyches with 16 attacks, killing 2.4 in return.
Then the next round starts. The AD wyches get hit by 8 bolt pistols, losing 3 wyches. The CB wyches get attacked by 7, losing 2.5. Remember that bolt pistol attacks do not trigger the Dodge invuln save, so they only get a 6++. Then in melee, the wyches take 8 and 7 melee attacks. On average, in both units, 7 wyches are dead at this point, the difference in average wyches killed is only 0.4. But the CB wyches with their 2 rounds of melee kill 4 marines, and the Acrobatic Display wyches kill only 3.
Hence why I doubt AD will gain too much traction. Wyches CAN NOT compete with Shock Assault marines in a drag-out fight, increasing their durability by what is effectively a tiny margin doesn't change that. How they can compete is by leaning in to offense and obliterating those marines - 10 Berserk Fugue+Slashing Impact wyches kill 6 marines on the charge, lose only 4 wyches before their second round of hits, and nearly mop up the remaining 4 in the second round. With most Combat Drugs or a couple upgrades, those marines are gone.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I think my biggest sadness, was that while a few of the Exarch traits helped some Aspect Warriors, the Howling Banshees - literally the new models, got nothing to help them. Their Exarch traits are all, without question, worse than the basic Exarch trait they begin with. So, as a whole, they actually got worse...because things like Striking Scorpions (which were already superior) became better.
Net result was that Banshees got worse, while receiving nice new models. That's fething bizarre.
The forum complains about perceived power creep, but then complain when their own faction doesn't get the perceived creep?
People can be upset about it, but it borders on a selfish motivation if your army is strong already.
Power creep doesn't exist if all factions are increased in power at the same time equally. Those people that complain about power creep are more often than not met with the response of 'don't worry, soon you'll get yours, clearly GW is moving towards a new level of power across the game and soon we'll all be equal!' When this inevitably doesn't happen people get vexed.
Its not just about power creep either, there's a whole range of things that feed into this. Model releases, interesting rules and even a lore focus can turn a player on (or off) the hobby.
Its not selfish to expect the same/mildly similar treatment as other factions in the same campaign. That's rational and reasonable.
I think it's normal to want more awesome stuff, but we risk stepping on our own toes and sending the wrong message to GW when others ignore the issues in lieu of "I want it, too" syndrome.
In regards to shifting power levels - I think part is people being shocked at marines being competitive and being unprepared to deal with new challenges and part rules that may be a bit strong. There is no doubt in my mind that the way the new books were written in terms of rule clarity and dynamics (you won't find explosions that occur on anything other than unmodified rolls). Everyone should want that. Not everyone will get the power boost like marines needed.
Models are an elusive beast and they just come when GW has the inspiration and slot to kick them out (and clearly they're quite a bit more inspired over on the AoS end at the moment).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Elbows wrote: I think my biggest sadness, was that while a few of the Exarch traits helped some Aspect Warriors, the Howling Banshees - literally the new models, got nothing to help them. Their Exarch traits are all, without question, worse than the basic Exarch trait they begin with. So, as a whole, they actually got worse...because things like Striking Scorpions (which were already superior) became better.
Net result was that Banshees got worse, while receiving nice new models. That's fething bizarre.
I guess I'm confused. What is it that you hoped they would get? -1 to be hit plus a 5+++ in melee on a unit that has a +3 to charge, has M8, can advance and charge, and can't be overwatched seems reasonably durable to me. Is it the damage output?
For posterity to people without the book Banshee options below:
1) -1 to be hit in melee (standard- pay 1 CP to have this plus one other below or just one below)
2) 5+++ in melee for whole unit
3) Exarch can make 2 attacks at S6 AP3 D3 (this one seems pretty terrible)
4) -2 Attacks to an enemy model w/i 1" of Exarch
5) Exarch gains +1A; +2A if equipped with mirror swords
6) Exarch unmod 6s to hit cause 1 mortal wound in addition to other damage
7) D3 mortal wounds on 4+ to unit w/i 1" of Exarch after charge
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/04 17:07:42
Everyone should want that. Not everyone will get the power boost like marines needed.
Isn't that why some people are unhappy about the changes. No one wants their book to stay unupdated, while other armies win more against you. There is a break point to how many games one can lose with no way of doing better.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
That's not how I read it? It just has to have an Exarch alive to benefit.
Whilst this unit contains a Howling
Banshee Exarch, when a model in this unit would lose
a wound in the Fight phase, roll one D6; on a 5+ that
wound is not lost.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/04 18:12:02
It's damage, it's always been damage. Banshees get into combat pretty well and tank decently for T3 4+ models. But even now Intercessors (and probably most everything else, that's just what comes to mind) best Banshees in combat. That should've been fixed with the "updated datasheet" (lmao, what a crock)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/04 18:22:19
Gene St. Ealer wrote: It's damage, it's always been damage. Banshees get into combat pretty well and tank decently for T3 4+ models. But even now Intercessors (and probably most everything else, that's just what comes to mind) best Banshees in combat. That should've been fixed with the "updated datasheet" (lmao, what a crock)
Well, they're 4+/5+++ and -1 to be hit.
Let's assume Intercessor Vets with a TH - 101 points, which is roughly 8 Banshees & executioner.
They charge, don't fail, and don't get overwatched.
And the Intercessors have two plus the TH sarge left:
6 * .5 * .666 * .5 * .666 = 0.7
4 * .333 * .833 = 1.1 -- at most one-ish model will die, because the 3 damage will just negate FNP
2 models * 13 = 26 points killed
Even IF the Intercessors are full strength the TH sarge is still hitting on 5s. The extra 2 Intercessors would kill another model making them about equal in ability, but if Banshees aren't getting the charge something has gone horribly wrong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/04 18:44:07
The forum complains about perceived power creep, but then complain when their own faction doesn't get the perceived creep?
People can be upset about it, but it borders on a selfish motivation if your army is strong already.
Power creep doesn't exist if all factions are increased in power at the same time equally. Those people that complain about power creep are more often than not met with the response of 'don't worry, soon you'll get yours, clearly GW is moving towards a new level of power across the game and soon we'll all be equal!' When this inevitably doesn't happen people get vexed.
Its not just about power creep either, there's a whole range of things that feed into this. Model releases, interesting rules and even a lore focus can turn a player on (or off) the hobby.
Its not selfish to expect the same/mildly similar treatment as other factions in the same campaign. That's rational and reasonable.
I think it's normal to want more awesome stuff, but we risk stepping on our own toes and sending the wrong message to GW when others ignore the issues in lieu of "I want it, too" syndrome.
In regards to shifting power levels - I think part is people being shocked at marines being competitive and being unprepared to deal with new challenges and part rules that may be a bit strong. There is no doubt in my mind that the way the new books were written in terms of rule clarity and dynamics (you won't find explosions that occur on anything other than unmodified rolls). Everyone should want that. Not everyone will get the power boost like marines needed.
Models are an elusive beast and they just come when GW has the inspiration and slot to kick them out (and clearly they're quite a bit more inspired over on the AoS end at the moment).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Elbows wrote: I think my biggest sadness, was that while a few of the Exarch traits helped some Aspect Warriors, the Howling Banshees - literally the new models, got nothing to help them. Their Exarch traits are all, without question, worse than the basic Exarch trait they begin with. So, as a whole, they actually got worse...because things like Striking Scorpions (which were already superior) became better.
Net result was that Banshees got worse, while receiving nice new models. That's fething bizarre.
I guess I'm confused. What is it that you hoped they would get? -1 to be hit plus a 5+++ in melee on a unit that has a +3 to charge, has M8, can advance and charge, and can't be overwatched seems reasonably durable to me. Is it the damage output?
For posterity to people without the book Banshee options below:
1) -1 to be hit in melee (standard- pay 1 CP to have this plus one other below or just one below)
2) 5+++ in melee for whole unit
3) Exarch can make 2 attacks at S6 AP3 D3 (this one seems pretty terrible)
4) -2 Attacks to an enemy model w/i 1" of Exarch
5) Exarch gains +1A; +2A if equipped with mirror swords
6) Exarch unmod 6s to hit cause 1 mortal wound in addition to other damage
7) D3 mortal wounds on 4+ to unit w/i 1" of Exarch after charge
First off, you have #3 wrong, the Exarch gains bonus strength but also gets the strength bonus on her executioner weapon, so she actually makes 2 S8 Ap-3 D3 attacks. That is one of the better traits tbh.
I had hoped they would gain quite a lot more damage for their point cost.
Currently, a tactical marine in melee throws 2 attacks. A dark eldar Wych makes a minimum of 3, often 4 (dependent on Drugs/Subfaction traits). A Harlequin makes 4.
A howling banshee makes 2 S3 AP-3 D1 attacks in melee, for an average of 0.37 unsaved wounds against MEQ, supposedly the target they are most specialized to fight.
The 5+++ in melee is definitely the best trait, however you are comparing it not in a vacuum, but instead as an exchange for a -1 to hit in melee. So it makes them slightly more durable versus D1, and quite a bit less durable vs D2+ weapons. You can take both traits, which is IMO the best way to run banshees, but it costs a CP, and the unit still suffers the same issues every melee unit does in 8th: Fall Back makes melee-only defenses a dubious proposition at best, and FLY keyword and titanic units make the utility of a unit that basically just ties things up in melee a bit sketchy as well.
Banshees just get penalized by too many core rules mechanics. To use their good charging rules, they must Advance and give up their pistols (making their damage even more scant). The fact they can't advance when they pop out of a webway portal makes their +3" a lot less reliable. Fall back makes it easy to ignore their melee-only defenses and turn them into an extremely squishy T3 4+ unit. Fly and Titanic means in most competitive matchups there simply is no target that it is valuable to get them into melee with.
All the damage buffs they did give them are fairly wimpy compared to the baseline rule they get (+17% extra durability in melee). Assuming a min squad of banshees, you've got:
3) is 1 extra unsaved wound vs standard vehicles. The squad of banshees would then cause 3 unsaved wounds total to a standard tank...very iffy for a what, 70 point unit?
5) provides a 15% damage boost of the min squad vs marines (Bringing them up to a whopping 2.4 unsaved wounds vs MEQ). Even with +2A instead of +1A, Mirrorswords are still mathmatically inferior vs all targets than an executioner, including guardsmen.
6) Same as 5) with an executioner. Gives you the same damage bump from 2.5 to 3 unsaved MEQ wounds.
7) twice as effective as 6 but less reliable.
The best damage boost they got is 7, which gives an average of 1 extra mortal wound on the charge. 1 extra mortal wound is basically never worth -1 to hit in melee for the whole squad.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
For posterity to people without the book Banshee options below:
1) -1 to be hit in melee (standard- pay 1 CP to have this plus one other below or just one below)
2) 5+++ in melee for whole unit
3) Exarch can make 2 attacks at S6 AP3 D3 (this one seems pretty terrible)
4) -2 Attacks to an enemy model w/i 1" of Exarch
5) Exarch gains +1A; +2A if equipped with mirror swords
6) Exarch unmod 6s to hit cause 1 mortal wound in addition to other damage
7) D3 mortal wounds on 4+ to unit w/i 1" of Exarch after charge
I'm not sure why you're confused, Banshees are supposed to be Elite killers but with only 2 S3 attacks they aren't killing anything and they are the only aspect that didn't get any Exarch Powers that can help them with their job.
Now compare that to the powers that are available to the other Aspect Shrines. Scorpion Exarchs have an ability that makes the whole units Mandiblasters go off on a 5+. Swooping Hawk Exarchs have an ability that if they hit in overwatch, the charging unit is -2 to charge, or better yet an ability where the units Grenade Packs do mortal wounds on a 5+ instead of a 6+. Or how about Warp Spiders, that get an ability to reroll all failed hits on the turn they drop down. Banshees got nothing that really benefits the unit (swapping one defensive power for another weaker power is not a good trade), and bizzarly their mortal wound output can only be on the Exarch whilst Scorpions and Hawks got a significant boost to theirs unit wide.
Mind you, my Shadow Spectres didn't even get Exarch Powers (not that I expect them to anyway).
Tyel wrote: Its incredibly thin.
From a DE perspective you get five pages, covering 2 datasheets and 3 sets of traits, almost all of which are worse than options you already have outside of niche cases (the as mentioned test of skill flyers for instance). There may be options for pure mix and match - but at the cost of giving up chapter specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems. Labyrinthine Cunning, Vect, Living Muse? That's a lot to give up unless you are having two kabal detachments (and I know many do for flayed skull, but still.)
Its unclear anything that wasn't viable before has been made so by this addition. So it isn't very interesting from a design perspective.
For CWE its a similar story. Okay, its even more unclear why you wouldn't max out your Crimson Hunter Exarchs - but the bulk of the rest is just fluffy sidegrades, and the successor craftworld traits as a whole are marginal. It may be worth getting cover and another ability rather than -1 to hit outside 12 but its not obviously game changing.
Ynnari cost reductions were obvious - but it doesn't change the fact the faction has been cut off at the knees. Funner to play casually - but not influencing the meta.
As for the fluff there is very little here.
For the sake of those without the book and/or familiarity with DE this is what is available:
PICK TWO
1) -1 ld bubble from DE units (no self-stack)
2) Fall back & Charge; One mortal wound on a 6 when enemies charge any number of units
3) Lose only one model to morale
4) Advance and charge rerolls; unmod 6s to hit in melee auto wounds (not vs VEHICLE/TITAN)
5) +3" Move to FLY models
6) Reroll 1s for FNP; Units w/o FNP gain it
7) Unmod 6s to wound with poison is +1 Damage (not on artefacts)
8) Deepstrike more out of webway portal
-- No specific relics, strats, traits
Versus:
Black Heart Tactic: +1 to Power from Pain (better than the first half of 4 above); Units w/o FNP gain it
Relic : Reroll 1s to wound w/i 6''
Trait: Gain CP on a 6 for each CP used
Strat: Vect
Flayed Skull Tactic: +3" Move to FLY Models; FLY Models (or embarkees) ignore cover and reroll 1s to hit w/ RF Relic: 4++ after shadowfield fails
Trait: +1S +1A when charged or charging
Strat: +1 to Shoot FLY
Poisoned Tongue Tactic: Reroll 1s to wound for melee and poison
Relic: Meh pistol
Trait: Use WL leadership w/i 12"
Strat: Re-deploy 3 units before start of battle
Obsidian Rose Tactic: +6" to Assault, RF, and Heavy
Relic: 3+ Save (regular) and -1 to be hit in melee
Trait: +1 Damage for WL Strat: Feeling models shoot or fight - if they kill something then none flee
To me is seems you'd still be using Black Heart for Ravagers and Vect, but there are other facets that could potentially be exploited for maybe some interesting melee or poison spam.
I don't think any Eldar needed buffs other than Ynnari getting a little more breathing room.
My night lords already get #1 on that list. If gw would add #4 (which we had at the end of 7th) I'd be thrilled. Wb players would probably take any ONE of those.
So what are you complaining about?
I doubt that quite a bit, I have played for a long time and one consistent in that time is csm players inherent ability to moan about there rules unless they are 3.5 levels of broken you could give them all 8 and they would still find something to moan about(I played Alpha Legion in 3.5 as an aside). Even when they have a point like the blandining that the following codex became after 3.5 they hammer on so much its hard to have any sympathy given only codex marines have had more releases than csm/legions in years. I think of it as the VotLW effect (Veteran’s of the Long Whine).
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis
For posterity to people without the book Banshee options below:
1) -1 to be hit in melee (standard- pay 1 CP to have this plus one other below or just one below)
2) 5+++ in melee for whole unit
3) Exarch can make 2 attacks at S6 AP3 D3 (this one seems pretty terrible)
4) -2 Attacks to an enemy model w/i 1" of Exarch
5) Exarch gains +1A; +2A if equipped with mirror swords
6) Exarch unmod 6s to hit cause 1 mortal wound in addition to other damage
7) D3 mortal wounds on 4+ to unit w/i 1" of Exarch after charge
I'm not sure why you're confused, Banshees are supposed to be Elite killers but with only 2 S3 attacks they aren't killing anything and they are the only aspect that didn't get any Exarch Powers that can help them with their job.
Now compare that to the powers that are available to the other Aspect Shrines. Scorpion Exarchs have an ability that makes the whole units Mandiblasters go off on a 5+. Swooping Hawk Exarchs have an ability that if they hit in overwatch, the charging unit is -2 to charge, or better yet an ability where the units Grenade Packs do mortal wounds on a 5+ instead of a 6+. Or how about Warp Spiders, that get an ability to reroll all failed hits on the turn they drop down. Banshees got nothing that really benefits the unit (swapping one defensive power for another weaker power is not a good trade), and bizzarly their mortal wound output can only be on the Exarch whilst Scorpions and Hawks got a significant boost to theirs unit wide.
Mind you, my Shadow Spectres didn't even get Exarch Powers (not that I expect them to anyway).
Really the only benefit is if you take a big unit of 10 you can spend 1CP to make them fairly tanky*
*until you fail to 3-point someone and they just fall back and sweep the whole squad away with zero effort. 5 intercessors kill 3.7 banshees with Tactical Doctrine bolt rifles.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
First off, you have #3 wrong, the Exarch gains bonus strength but also gets the strength bonus on her executioner weapon, so she actually makes 2 S8 Ap-3 D3 attacks. That is one of the better traits tbh.
I had hoped they would gain quite a lot more damage for their point cost.
Currently, a tactical marine in melee throws 2 attacks. A dark eldar Wych makes a minimum of 3, often 4 (dependent on Drugs/Subfaction traits). A Harlequin makes 4.
A howling banshee makes 2 S3 AP-3 D1 attacks in melee, for an average of 0.37 unsaved wounds against MEQ, supposedly the target they are most specialized to fight.
The 5+++ in melee is definitely the best trait, however you are comparing it not in a vacuum, but instead as an exchange for a -1 to hit in melee. So it makes them slightly more durable versus D1, and quite a bit less durable vs D2+ weapons. You can take both traits, which is IMO the best way to run banshees, but it costs a CP, and the unit still suffers the same issues every melee unit does in 8th: Fall Back makes melee-only defenses a dubious proposition at best, and FLY keyword and titanic units make the utility of a unit that basically just ties things up in melee a bit sketchy as well.
Banshees just get penalized by too many core rules mechanics. To use their good charging rules, they must Advance and give up their pistols (making their damage even more scant). The fact they can't advance when they pop out of a webway portal makes their +3" a lot less reliable. Fall back makes it easy to ignore their melee-only defenses and turn them into an extremely squishy T3 4+ unit. Fly and Titanic means in most competitive matchups there simply is no target that it is valuable to get them into melee with.
All the damage buffs they did give them are fairly wimpy compared to the baseline rule they get (+17% extra durability in melee). Assuming a min squad of banshees, you've got:
3) is 1 extra unsaved wound vs standard vehicles. The squad of banshees would then cause 3 unsaved wounds total to a standard tank...very iffy for a what, 70 point unit?
5) provides a 15% damage boost of the min squad vs marines (Bringing them up to a whopping 2.4 unsaved wounds vs MEQ). Even with +2A instead of +1A, Mirrorswords are still mathmatically inferior vs all targets than an executioner, including guardsmen.
6) Same as 5) with an executioner. Gives you the same damage bump from 2.5 to 3 unsaved MEQ wounds.
7) twice as effective as 6 but less reliable.
The best damage boost they got is 7, which gives an average of 1 extra mortal wound on the charge. 1 extra mortal wound is basically never worth -1 to hit in melee for the whole squad.
Ok, this is quite helpful.
Wyches have more attacks, but much less AP, right?
A fully stacked Harlie is a considerable number of points and suffers the same pistol issue. Without pistols they're 19 to 20 points for better attacks, but lack overwatch deny (belt helps) and are not -1 to be hit in combat nor do they have a decent regular save (same for wyches). +3" out of a portal is still far better than none.
Banshees still seem like the more reliable unit with less external risk tied to it.
There are a lot more marines on the tables these days. Granted Assault Cents and Aggressors are no joke in melee. I'd probably opt to not send Banshees their way unless I was sure I could wrap them with whatever models survive or I was turning them off for a killy character to come in (or Spears), which is likely a sound method to remove those jerks.
I get the feeling that people want them to be a swiss army knife, but that would totally butcher the purpose of the other aspects wouldn't it?
Elbows wrote: I think my biggest sadness, was that while a few of the Exarch traits helped some Aspect Warriors, the Howling Banshees - literally the new models, got nothing to help them. Their Exarch traits are all, without question, worse than the basic Exarch trait they begin with. So, as a whole, they actually got worse...because things like Striking Scorpions (which were already superior) became better.
Net result was that Banshees got worse, while receiving nice new models. That's fething bizarre.
Except that exemplar trait allows a player to keep the old one AND take one of the new ones. I'll review the traits themselves when I'm back to my book, because I also don't necessarily buy the "none of these traits are good" argument. I think what happens is that any trait can be good if you build with it in mind and seek combinations.
Now compare that to the powers that are available to the other Aspect Shrines. Scorpion Exarchs have an ability that makes the whole units Mandiblasters go off on a 5+. Swooping Hawk Exarchs have an ability that if they hit in overwatch, the charging unit is -2 to charge, or better yet an ability where the units Grenade Packs do mortal wounds on a 5+ instead of a 6+. Or how about Warp Spiders, that get an ability to reroll all failed hits on the turn they drop down. Banshees got nothing that really benefits the unit (swapping one defensive power for another weaker power is not a good trade), and bizzarly their mortal wound output can only be on the Exarch whilst Scorpions and Hawks got a significant boost to theirs unit wide.
Mind you, my Shadow Spectres didn't even get Exarch Powers (not that I expect them to anyway).
I don't deny these advantages.
Scorpions need combat for the blasters and do not advance and charge, or +3 to charge, nor do they ignore overwatch. They're only a couple points cheaper for S4 AP0 and the same number of attacks. Whatever they catch with mandiblasters they lose on melee and getting smacked back. Hawks are cool, too, but then that's a defensive stance to take and have no melee potential if they do get charged. The grenades are spiffy, but then you're moving danger close and it's most effective against larger units and you won't have the charge blocker. Warp Spiders are also awesome, but we're talking about a 12" gun.
All of these units have the same issue of being popped off my Intercessors the turn after they make their gambit. Banshees and Spiders are the most reliable deploys.
Really the only benefit is if you take a big unit of 10 you can spend 1CP to make them fairly tanky*
*until you fail to 3-point someone and they just fall back and sweep the whole squad away with zero effort. 5 intercessors kill 3.7 banshees with Tactical Doctrine bolt rifles.
Sure - there is a cost to the FNP and a risk to any melee unit.
Scorpions would surely do better simply due to the Mandiblasters, but they have to get there first, which is way more difficult and requires more support to pull off.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/04 19:40:51
First off, you have #3 wrong, the Exarch gains bonus strength but also gets the strength bonus on her executioner weapon, so she actually makes 2 S8 Ap-3 D3 attacks. That is one of the better traits tbh.
I had hoped they would gain quite a lot more damage for their point cost.
Currently, a tactical marine in melee throws 2 attacks. A dark eldar Wych makes a minimum of 3, often 4 (dependent on Drugs/Subfaction traits). A Harlequin makes 4.
A howling banshee makes 2 S3 AP-3 D1 attacks in melee, for an average of 0.37 unsaved wounds against MEQ, supposedly the target they are most specialized to fight.
The 5+++ in melee is definitely the best trait, however you are comparing it not in a vacuum, but instead as an exchange for a -1 to hit in melee. So it makes them slightly more durable versus D1, and quite a bit less durable vs D2+ weapons. You can take both traits, which is IMO the best way to run banshees, but it costs a CP, and the unit still suffers the same issues every melee unit does in 8th: Fall Back makes melee-only defenses a dubious proposition at best, and FLY keyword and titanic units make the utility of a unit that basically just ties things up in melee a bit sketchy as well.
Banshees just get penalized by too many core rules mechanics. To use their good charging rules, they must Advance and give up their pistols (making their damage even more scant). The fact they can't advance when they pop out of a webway portal makes their +3" a lot less reliable. Fall back makes it easy to ignore their melee-only defenses and turn them into an extremely squishy T3 4+ unit. Fly and Titanic means in most competitive matchups there simply is no target that it is valuable to get them into melee with.
All the damage buffs they did give them are fairly wimpy compared to the baseline rule they get (+17% extra durability in melee). Assuming a min squad of banshees, you've got:
3) is 1 extra unsaved wound vs standard vehicles. The squad of banshees would then cause 3 unsaved wounds total to a standard tank...very iffy for a what, 70 point unit?
5) provides a 15% damage boost of the min squad vs marines (Bringing them up to a whopping 2.4 unsaved wounds vs MEQ). Even with +2A instead of +1A, Mirrorswords are still mathmatically inferior vs all targets than an executioner, including guardsmen.
6) Same as 5) with an executioner. Gives you the same damage bump from 2.5 to 3 unsaved MEQ wounds.
7) twice as effective as 6 but less reliable.
The best damage boost they got is 7, which gives an average of 1 extra mortal wound on the charge. 1 extra mortal wound is basically never worth -1 to hit in melee for the whole squad.
Ok, this is quite helpful.
Wyches have more attacks, but much less AP, right?
A fully stacked Harlie is a considerable number of points and suffers the same pistol issue. Without pistols they're 19 to 20 points for better attacks, but lack overwatch deny (belt helps) and are not -1 to be hit in combat nor do they have a decent regular save (same for wyches). +3" out of a portal is still far better than none.
Banshees still seem like the more reliable unit with less external risk tied to it.
There are a lot more marines on the tables these days. Granted Assault Cents and Aggressors are no joke in melee. I'd probably opt to not send Banshees their way unless I was sure I could wrap them with whatever models survive or I was turning them off for a killy character to come in (or Spears), which is likely a sound method to remove those jerks.
I get the feeling that people want them to be a swiss army knife, but that would totally butcher the purpose of the other aspects wouldn't it?
Wyches have no AP, true. They are also 8ppm. Equal points of wyches kills exactly the same number of marines, more guardsmen, is better defensively versus anyone with AP on their weapons, and have a rule that prevents fallback.
So basically...wyches are better at being specialized anti-elite melee units. And they're not. They're actually pretty bad at that, that's using them in kind of an unintended role where they may not perform terribly well.
Peak Banshee performance is piss-poor wych performance.
Harlequins do suffer similar problems to Banshees. They are similarly poor, and the single best build for them (a melee specialist unit) is to...not get into melee at all, and just load up on melta pistols and stay aboard their transport.
The point I was trying to make with wyches and harlequins is that the thing banshees are held back by is their deadliness, driven by what is now a ridiculously low number of attacks for a fast, ninja-type unit that they are supposed to be. When a unit of howling banshees charges a unit of space marines holding fething gigantic lascannons and then those two units proceed to make the exact same number of attacks in melee against each other...that's just kind of stupid.
Nobody wants banshees to be swiss army knives. Everybody wants banshees to be able to do what is supposed to be their job: Kill high armored, low invuln, low toughness elite units.
Nobody wants them to kill monsters the best in melee, that's Shining Spears.
Nobody wants them to kill GEQ best in melee, that's Striking Scorpions.
But right now, Striking Scorpions with the 5+ mandiblaster trait are way, WAY better at killing MEQ than banshees. 6 Scorpions with a Scorpions Claw exarch cost the same as 5 banshees with an executioner exarch, and they cause 30% more damage than banshees do with their best offensive trait. And they come with deep strike, for free. And more armor, which basically mitigates the -1 to hit. And a bonus vs units in cover. The only thing the banshees do is ignore overwatch, which while it ain't nothing, I would gladly give up to make them quasi-functional.
If you want to bring banshees in a casual game, you've got to spend the CP to give them the 5++ and the -1 to hit, and you've got to basically use them as a tarpit the best you can. And they're...maybe half decent, if definitely overpriced, for that job. Maybe you're playing a casual enough game where your opponent has some tank you can maybe tie up and shut down to justify the 133 points+1CP of the banshee unit.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Edit - Wrote this before the_scotsman's post appeared. Its broadly similar.
Daedalus81 wrote: I get the feeling that people want them to be a swiss army knife, but that would totally butcher the purpose of the other aspects wouldn't it?
It might but right now you have a unit which doesn't do much of anything.
The problem is that a banshee is 13 points.
And you can't deal with hordes, because you don't have the attacks.
You can't deal with vehicles/monsters, because you only do 1 damage.
Then you run them into say intercessors, which should be the preferred target, and the result is decidedly mediocre. 25%ish expected return in assault - even with the movement buffs, and ignore overwatch, isn't, imo at least, worth it. The Exarch boosts things a bit - but not dramatically so.
To be fair, things are a lot better if you can charge say Incubi or Khorne Berzerkers, but both units have their own problems (the foremost being probably overcosted). And this is a pretty specific niche.
Yes you can wrap and trap - you have the extra movement - but its still not guaranteed. Not least because since you kill so little, most things can just punch their way clear of Banshees. If your opponent can walk away (or fly - like about half the good units in the game) they can just shoot you. Or just counter charge you - because at the end of the day, you are Fire Warriors at almost twice the cost. Not exactly hard to punch to death, even with -1 to hit from War Shout.
If Eldar had really obvious assault units that could follow in after you nullify the overwatch it might make some sense - but they don't really. MSU units to run around tagging vehicles? I feel the meta has sort of moved on from this being a thing - unless your opponent has really put no thought into how they will deal with such units. Shooting 5 banshees is fairly easy.
I realise the cry will always be "every assault unit can't be genestealers or its boring" - but I feel if you are not odds on to crush whatever you touch, it doesn't make up for the time you fluff the charge, your opponent rolls hot on overwatch (not a problem here but still) or you roll below average on your attack (and then your opponent rolls above average with theirs.) I mean the 25% on Intercessors is about the mathematical average - you are going to do worse about half the time.
To some degree though this is a problem with assault in general. I think its fine for a fun one off game with friends - but going to a tournament, you are too exposed to crap dice. Which to be fair is true of shooting - but if you fail a few critical charges, its often game over. Whereas fluffing one unit's shooting can, sometimes at least, be made good by another suddenly getting nothing but 6s.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/04 19:51:48
I realise the cry will always be "every assault unit can't be genestealers or its boring" - but I feel if you are not odds on to crush whatever you touch, it doesn't make up for the time you fluff the charge, your opponent rolls hot on overwatch (not a problem here but still) or you roll below average on your attack (and then your opponent rolls above average with theirs.) I mean the 25% on Intercessors is about the mathematical average - you are going to do worse about half the time.
*Will Smith punches you in the face*
"Welcome to 8th"
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
The Newman wrote: Their own ad blurb called out "Codex Supplement-tier updates for these armies" with a bunch of Chaos icons. I take it the new Chaos rules fell short of that by a lot?
we've not seen them. but I imagine, much like Eldar players, there will be unhappyness due to the lack of a doctrine ability.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
The Newman wrote: Their own ad blurb called out "Codex Supplement-tier updates for these armies" with a bunch of Chaos icons. I take it the new Chaos rules fell short of that by a lot?
we've not seen them. but I imagine, much like Eldar players, there will be unhappyness due to the lack of a doctrine ability.
If you read the OP you will notice that the lack of a doctrine ability is nowhere near the only reason for the unhappiness of Eldar players.
Elbows wrote: I think my biggest sadness, was that while a few of the Exarch traits helped some Aspect Warriors, the Howling Banshees - literally the new models, got nothing to help them. Their Exarch traits are all, without question, worse than the basic Exarch trait they begin with. So, as a whole, they actually got worse...because things like Striking Scorpions (which were already superior) became better.
Net result was that Banshees got worse, while receiving nice new models. That's fething bizarre.
Except that exemplar trait allows a player to keep the old one AND take one of the new ones. I'll review the traits themselves when I'm back to my book, because I also don't necessarily buy the "none of these traits are good" argument. I think what happens is that any trait can be good if you build with it in mind and seek combinations.
Any trait will be worse if you don't.
Sure, and if you want to spend 1CP, then go for it. The best trait is the one you don't have to plan around, at all. Let's glance at them...
1) Graceful avoidance: 5+ feel no pain in close combat...okay. So maybe they tank a few extra rounds in close combat? They better because they'll be taking a lot of strikes back, since they struggle to kill pretty much anything. Tough 3, and 4+ armour means they'll lose plenty of wounds. This is probably the only one worth adding if you feel like spending CP to gain both.
2) Piercing Strike: Exarch only...lose an attack to boost another one. This is basically crap. There is nothing special or amazing about a Howling Banshee Exarch that makes it a "killing machine" worth delivering while your basic Banshees are cut to ribbons or kill nothing. The Exarch powers which impact only the Exarch are complete garbage.
3) Disarming Strike: Sure...remove 2 from an attacks characteristic. If you ran a minimum unit, and it's whole goal in life was to run in and tie up a large model and reduce its attacks...cool I guess? If that's a suitable use of trained Aspect Warriors to you and you want to run them at something to tie them up...great?
4) Whirling Blades: Bonus attack for the Exarch...yawn. Oh, +2 attacks if you have Mirror Swords (which are crap). Again, only benefits the Exarch, is basically complete gak.
5) Decapitating Strike: ONLY the Exarch...on an unmodified wound roll of '6', inflicts a mortal wound.
6) Nerve Shredding Shriek: When charging a unit, on a 4+ the target unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. Absolute gak. On the level of stratagems you pay for and then have to roll to do something.
___________________________________________________________________________
So there is precisely one trait you could maybe justify with 1CP if you really love your Banshees and think they can make it into close-combat. I'll grant you that one. Banshees have always suffered because they're not as good as Scorpions. Now Scorpions inflict a mortal wound (before the fight phase...so literally faster than Banshees fighting first) on a 5+ for each model in the unit. They're 3 points a model less, have 3+ armour, can deepstrike, and are Strength 4 (though they lack AP...it's irrelevant because they're mortal-wound slingers properly now).
I still occasionally run Banshees...and they still die to a stiff breeze, even against basic Space Marines. Some people are willing to simply say "well they're just a disposable unit to stop overwatch" and if that's plenty for you - then cool. But a lore-appropriate whirlwind of death they are not. Almost all the other Aspects got a proper boost which revitalized them as units for the tabletop. Banshees did not.
I dunno. I just get the feeling that blocking overwatch is a crucial ability coupled with reliable charges is a handy tool to have. Banshees and Spears are like a one two punch -- the 3 damage paragon sabre is perfect for tackling aggressors and you don't need CP spend to keep the original ability.
Banshees are easily the worst aspect. Even Swooping hawks are better for their job of typing up stuff. Plus they do banshee damage from 24 inches away if that is what you need. With options to boost durability or firepower.
I'd probably rate the aspect from worst to last like this.
Banshees
Firedragons
Striking scorpions
Swooping hawks
Dire avengers (worst than hawks but give CP)
Incubi
Dark reapers
Warp-spiders
Crimson hunters
Shinning spears
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/04 20:48:59
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Daedalus81 wrote: I dunno. I just get the feeling that blocking overwatch is a crucial ability coupled with reliable charges is a handy tool to have. Banshees and Spears are like a one two punch -- the 3 damage paragon sabre is perfect for tackling aggressors and you don't need CP spend to keep the original ability.
The problem here is that shining spears are just a one-one punch. Banshee ignore overwatch, shining spears ignore...the melee. They just kill them super dead.
Also paragon saber? Lol. SS exarchs can have a S8 Ap-4 D2 weapon. I haven't done the math but if three spears don't murk 5 intercwssors I done know what else you need.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
The Newman wrote: Their own ad blurb called out "Codex Supplement-tier updates for these armies" with a bunch of Chaos icons. I take it the new Chaos rules fell short of that by a lot?
we've not seen them. but I imagine, much like Eldar players, there will be unhappyness due to the lack of a doctrine ability.
Doctrine ability is how marine catch up in power to stuff that was a lot better than they were. Realistically if you removed the super doctrine ability from the armies. Marines would still be good but not the OP gak fest you see now. Eldar already have ap-3 or ap-4 on literally every weapon in their army minus scatter lasers which aren't that popular. Marines actually being able to fight compotently in CC now is also a good thing.
One issue I really have is how few attacks eldar melle specialist have. They need a +1 attack ability too.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Also paragon saber? Lol. SS exarchs can have a S8 Ap-4 D2 weapon. I haven't done the math but if three spears don't murk 5 intercwssors I done know what else you need.
I was thinking more along the lines of Aggressors sitting at 3 wounds. D2 requires twice as many attacks, but I keep forgetting that they're S3 so even with Doom probably no bueno.
Spears kill things dead, but if they need to be at 9" or 12" when facing down a pile of flamers they might wish for Banshees.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/04 21:00:40
Also paragon saber? Lol. SS exarchs can have a S8 Ap-4 D2 weapon. I haven't done the math but if three spears don't murk 5 intercwssors I done know what else you need.
I was thinking more along the lines of Aggressors sitting at 3 wounds. D2 requires twice as many attacks, but I keep forgetting that they're S3 so even with Doom probably no bueno.
Spears kill things dead, but if they need to be at 9" or 12" when facing down a pile of flamers they might wish for Banshees.
Okay then, we will see a unit of howling Banshees for every competitive Warhammer 40k list that uses flamers.
......
Any day now surely.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Okay then, we will see a unit of howling Banshees for every competitive Warhammer 40k list that uses flamers.
......
Any day now surely.
Are you not seeing the marine lists out there? People are complaining the marines are strong, but they don't want to bring the tools to beat them? I guarantee you're going to see a gak load of 11" flamers soon (on top of the ones already out there).
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/11/04 21:09:17
If you find yourself in a situation where you need to charge Aggressors...you're already in trouble. The Eldar do not have a single "mega" close combat unit. They haven't all edition. They have nothing that touches the efficiency of a Ork boyz unit, nothing that touches the pure damage output of a Bloodletter bomb, nothing that touches the madness of a Berzerker unit fighting 2-3 times, etc.
Spears are a great unit...but 36 points for a model as tough as a basic Primaris marine means you'll never field them in suitably large numbers. They have very strong attacks, but few of them (and die when stuck into combat if they don't win on the first charge). Maybe Wraithblades come closest, if teamed with the Ghost detachment from Vigilus...maybe?
Aspect Warriors only work in mixed company, sticking to the few spaces they fit in to do a task. If you want to use Banshees solely for tying stuff up, that's fine....a very tournament way of looking at the unit but fine.
