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Daedalus81 wrote: Hmm, well the auto wounds work for relics. So the +2a huskblade, +1a trait that heals when he kills and you got 8 power fist-ish attacks that auto wounds on 6s.
You're better off with Hatred Eternal for reroll all failed wounds, since you're only S4, especially when an Archon that is gettting wounded has usually already lost their Shadow Field and will die very, very fast. But why would you take that trait when the Archon, a mediocre combat character, and a couple of Court models are the only models in the detachment that can remotely make any use of it?
I love some of the responses here. They're pure gold.
If PA books 2 and 3 give other factions actual supplement level things, Eldar players of every type are well within their rights to be cheesed off. That is a perfectly normal and rational response to such treatment.
On the other hand, other factions will also expect model releases ala Phoenix Rising and those players are entitled to be annoyed if that doesn't happen.
Players want consistency. When customers feel that their business is not wanted by GW (because of a lack of releases, poor rules for an extended period of time or a lackluster book release for their chosen faction etc) they eventually stop playing and then stop buying. This isn't healthy for the game. Dakka is a microcosm of the hobby community and even here we see a reduction in some voices. Those voices have, it is possible (perhaps even likely), left the hobby.
The point is that ALL night lords get is #1 which, yes, doesn't do much and de can take that or any other trait PLUS another trait from the list.
Also last I checked no one but eldar players thought they needed more useful traits, strategems, etc. Eldar are pretty good and have been for a few editions. If they got the full sm treatment they would be broken.
Maybe eldar didn't get ad much help because they didn't need as much help.
Nobodies disputing that the Chaos traits aren't bad, they are, but thats not an excuse to through worthless trash at other armies. Also, you must be new to the internet, because I've seen Chaos players complain, rightfully, about how bad their traits are and how much they need a ground up reworking for nearly a couple years now. Tyranids are not that much better off as Kraken are the only trait thats worth running at this point.
And as usual people are wrong about Craftworlds, at the moment Crimson Hunter Exarchs are the only really good unit they have left, everything else that was good has been hit with the nerf bat pretty hard, and the codex has a lot of units that were outright trash to start with combined with a bunch of traits that aren't even fluffy (how is a trait that makes giant blobs of Guardians nearly fearless fluffy for Iyanden, the Craftworld where 90% of it's population was annihilated and relys on the reanimated dead?).
Archon with agoniser and a bunch of sslyth with d2 poison or Urghuls with exploding 6s.
I love the sslyth models so much.
I'd like to see the Court of the Archon be used as well, but it needs a lot more than just new army traits.
Lhamaeans can do Mortal Wounds on a 4+ in melee but have just 2 attacks apiece and only have synergy with the weakest non-custom Kabal (Poison Tongue).
Sslyth are bodyguards for one of the worst and most expendable HQ models in the game.
Medusae have a ranged attack that necessitates their being within charge range of the unit they want to shoot, but no melee capability, no defence and if they get into melee then they can't shoot their gun (i.e. the only reason to bring them). Oh, and if they want to do a drive-by attack then they can't benefit from the Archon's rerolls even if they're on the same transport (and their range weapon no longer auto-hits). I mean, the first issue could be fixed simply by making their ranged weapon a Pistol.
Ur-Ghuls . . . just don't serve any purpose whatsoever.
Finally, even if you do like one of the above, you can only ever bring 3 of them. Also, you can only ever have 4 Court models in a detachment, regardless of whether that detachment contains 1 Archon or 3.
Oh, one last bonus - all the Court models reroll failed hit rolls when the Archon is nearby. This means that the Archon's aura is worthless on his own court.
I want to like the Court of the Archon but it's an absolute travesty of rules design.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
I feel going "my word bearers may as well not have a trait, what are you guys complaining about" while the SM books are right there - right there - is just weird and disingenuous.
The point is that ALL night lords get is #1 which, yes, doesn't do much and de can take that or any other trait PLUS another trait from the list.
Also last I checked no one but eldar players thought they needed more useful traits, strategems, etc. Eldar are pretty good and have been for a few editions. If they got the full sm treatment they would be broken.
Maybe eldar didn't get ad much help because they didn't need as much help.
Nobodies disputing that the Chaos traits aren't bad, they are, but thats not an excuse to through worthless trash at other armies. Also, you must be new to the internet, because I've seen Chaos players complain, rightfully, about how bad their traits are and how much they need a ground up reworking for nearly a couple years now. Tyranids are not that much better off as Kraken are the only trait thats worth running at this point.
And as usual people are wrong about Craftworlds, at the moment Crimson Hunter Exarchs are the only really good unit they have left, everything else that was good has been hit with the nerf bat pretty hard, and the codex has a lot of units that were outright trash to start with combined with a bunch of traits that aren't even fluffy (how is a trait that makes giant blobs of Guardians nearly fearless fluffy for Iyanden, the Craftworld where 90% of it's population was annihilated and relys on the reanimated dead?).
Honestly it doesn't matter how it comes out, GW 's done the deed regardless.
F.e.
You allready have PA 1, if GW makes a propper PA, that fixes csm legions on top of supplements for bt, that's nice and Dandy, the releases still favour certain factions above all else, further gw has not done anything really to push certain archetypes aswell, beeing either too bad themselves and or dependant on traits that are too bad.
The last thing we should be is envious, the truth is gw has done goofed up, not the csm player or the C:SM player nor the Ynnari one.
But so long we don't hold gw accountable for their shoddy release balance and rulewriting so long nothing changes, except of course we get another survey result like Sisters, which hopefully break that circle of deinvestment.....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote: I feel going "my word bearers may as well not have a trait, what are you guys complaining about" while the SM books are right there - right there - is just weird and disingenuous.
Tbf, C:SM 2 the dex is a fair piece and rather solidly done for gw standards. And was needed
That is however no reason for gw to just throw out basic quality controll with the supplements and or ignore other armies depending on how they feel.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/11/03 22:37:03
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Disagree on Lhameans. Okay they only have 2 attacks. But they hit on 3s (2s) rerolling if next to an Archon. You then get Mortal wounds on 4s plus regular wounds on 2s. So you are likely getting some mortals and forcing saves. For 15 points I'm not sure what more you can ask for.
I think they could really do with some sort of "all charge together rule" - i.e. if your Archon makes it into combat, the whole court does so. Although really we are kidding ourselves that Archons want to rush into combat anyway. Having to run every character in (and potentially eating overwatch each time) is however an obvious problem. Which is true for all character spam armies - but especially so when you essentially 3 kabalites stuck together.
Agree on the rest. Ur Ghuls are just worse than having 2 Ork Slugga Boys stuck together, so why bother? Sslyth are just overcosted for what they do and its not obvious why you want them to defend a cheap throw-away character anyway. Medusae have a short ranged shooting attack which is negligible and quite expensive in the wider scheme of the game.
If PA books 2 and 3 give other factions actual supplement level things, Eldar players of every type are well within their rights to be cheesed off. That is a perfectly normal and rational response to such treatment.
On the other hand, other factions will also expect model releases ala Phoenix Rising and those players are entitled to be annoyed if that doesn't happen.
Players want consistency. When customers feel that their business is not wanted by GW (because of a lack of releases, poor rules for an extended period of time or a lackluster book release for their chosen faction etc) they eventually stop playing and then stop buying. This isn't healthy for the game. Dakka is a microcosm of the hobby community and even here we see a reduction in some voices. Those voices have, it is possible (perhaps even likely), left the hobby.
I dont really agree.
The forum complains about perceived power creep, but then complain when their own faction doesn't get the perceived creep?
People can be upset about it, but it borders on a selfish motivation if your army is strong already.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/11/03 23:45:23
Tyel wrote: Disagree on Lhameans. Okay they only have 2 attacks. But they hit on 3s (2s) rerolling if next to an Archon. You then get Mortal wounds on 4s plus regular wounds on 2s. So you are likely getting some mortals and forcing saves. For 15 points I'm not sure what more you can ask for.
Well, if you're factoring in rerolls, then it's 15pts plus another 72+pts for the Archon. And then you'll need another 65pts for a Venom. Plus playing Poison Tongue over other, much better Kabals in order to get the all-important rerolls to wound. And all that to buff 3 models.
27 is pretty good for what it is especially as a bodyguard. It just pales a bit internally and from rule of 3 and janky charging dynamic.
Sslyth do have nice models and honestly I wish there were more reasons to include what are basically Grotesques-lite.
I do agree that their price is pretty reasonable (though +1W would be nice). But I think the real issues are the opportunity costs. Most Archons seem to be either at the back of the table (in which case bodyguards probably aren't necessary), or else totally expendable (again, probably not much need for bodyguards). Plus, once you take into account the cost of the mandatory Venom, you end up tripling the cost of an HQ that you probably didn't want in the first place.
It's a shame because I do like the Sslyth models and I think they're a fun idea.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
I have never bought any supplements but I have enjoyed all the rules updates and buffs. Things are easy enough to find.
Supplements (outside of space marine chapter supplements) were never about pure rules so people were always going to be disappointed if they expected too much.
Looks like PA hasn't changed anything.
I do think PA2 might benefit their respective armies better but it was never meant to be an equal buff to each army.
They really shouldn't be saying "supplement tier" in their marketing for PA books if that isn't what they are.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Smirrors wrote: I have never bought any supplements but I have enjoyed all the rules updates and buffs. Things are easy enough to find.
Supplements (outside of space marine chapter supplements) were never about pure rules so people were always going to be disappointed if they expected too much.
Looks like PA hasn't changed anything.
I do think PA2 might benefit their respective armies better but it was never meant to be an equal buff to each army.
the space Marine supplements are hardly all about rules. supplement ultramarines has 15 pages of rules, and 41 pages of fluff. and ultramarines are a rules heavy supplement thatnks to all their datasheets
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/04 00:51:39
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Part of me would laugh if PA2 breaks chaos and is actually "supplement level." However they really need to cut back on the lore in these books to do this. As having a few pages of rules is really gimmicky way to cash in on poor rules and outdated content.
However another part of me would laugh if PA2 is a joke. An my prediction being that the entire psychic awakening is a joke an just PR nonsense.
It is kinda offensive and false advertising to say supplement level for all those factions, as that would mean PA2 needs updated rules for all the factions, multiple stratagems per faction, datasheets etc etc. If it was like that it be the most cost effective book in a long time...if you know care about those factions.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Argive wrote: And here I am considering dropping £20 on the PR book for CWE rules..
Yea, unfortunately this is essentially a codex update for CWE. Not a full one, mind you, but pretty mandatory.
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ThatMG wrote: It is kinda offensive and false advertising to say supplement level for all those factions, as that would mean PA2 needs updated rules for all the factions, multiple stratagems per faction, datasheets etc etc. If it was like that it be the most cost effective book in a long time...if you know care about those factions.
One of GW's primary vectors to kick models out these days is driving the story line. It isn't exactly fluff heavy though.
18 pages of direct fluff
8 for missions
14 for CWE 11 for DE 15 for Ynnari
The next book has two factions instead of 3 with one of them being Sisters whose codex isn't out yet so I can't imagine we'd see a ton for them. Should be interesting to see regardless.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/04 04:24:33
Argive wrote: And here I am considering dropping £20 on the PR book for CWE rules..
Yea, unfortunately this is essentially a codex update for CWE. Not a full one, mind you, but pretty mandatory.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ThatMG wrote: It is kinda offensive and false advertising to say supplement level for all those factions, as that would mean PA2 needs updated rules for all the factions, multiple stratagems per faction, datasheets etc etc. If it was like that it be the most cost effective book in a long time...if you know care about those factions.
One of GW's primary vectors to kick models out these days is driving the story line. It isn't exactly fluff heavy though.
18 pages of direct fluff
8 for missions
14 for CWE 11 for DE 15 for Ynnari
The next book has two factions instead of 3 with one of them being Sisters whose codex isn't out yet so I can't imagine we'd see a ton for them. It should be interesting to see regardless.
I decided to Take the hit. I have all the rules from various sources but many of them are paraphrased/names incorrect so when Im using battle scribe it doesnt make sense. The £20 is not that big a deal int he grand schemes of things.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
The forum complains about perceived power creep, but then complain when their own faction doesn't get the perceived creep?
People can be upset about it, but it borders on a selfish motivation if your army is strong already.
Power creep doesn't exist if all factions are increased in power at the same time equally. Those people that complain about power creep are more often than not met with the response of 'don't worry, soon you'll get yours, clearly GW is moving towards a new level of power across the game and soon we'll all be equal!' When this inevitably doesn't happen people get vexed.
Its not just about power creep either, there's a whole range of things that feed into this. Model releases, interesting rules and even a lore focus can turn a player on (or off) the hobby.
Its not selfish to expect the same/mildly similar treatment as other factions in the same campaign. That's rational and reasonable.
Tyel wrote: Its incredibly thin.
From a DE perspective you get five pages, covering 2 datasheets and 3 sets of traits, almost all of which are worse than options you already have outside of niche cases (the as mentioned test of skill flyers for instance). There may be options for pure mix and match - but at the cost of giving up chapter specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems. Labyrinthine Cunning, Vect, Living Muse? That's a lot to give up unless you are having two kabal detachments (and I know many do for flayed skull, but still.)
Its unclear anything that wasn't viable before has been made so by this addition. So it isn't very interesting from a design perspective.
For CWE its a similar story. Okay, its even more unclear why you wouldn't max out your Crimson Hunter Exarchs - but the bulk of the rest is just fluffy sidegrades, and the successor craftworld traits as a whole are marginal. It may be worth getting cover and another ability rather than -1 to hit outside 12 but its not obviously game changing.
Ynnari cost reductions were obvious - but it doesn't change the fact the faction has been cut off at the knees. Funner to play casually - but not influencing the meta.
As for the fluff there is very little here.
For the sake of those without the book and/or familiarity with DE this is what is available:
PICK TWO
1) -1 ld bubble from DE units (no self-stack)
2) Fall back & Charge; One mortal wound on a 6 when enemies charge any number of units
3) Lose only one model to morale
4) Advance and charge rerolls; unmod 6s to hit in melee auto wounds (not vs VEHICLE/TITAN)
5) +3" Move to FLY models
6) Reroll 1s for FNP; Units w/o FNP gain it
7) Unmod 6s to wound with poison is +1 Damage (not on artefacts)
8) Deepstrike more out of webway portal
-- No specific relics, strats, traits
Versus:
Black Heart Tactic: +1 to Power from Pain (better than the first half of 4 above); Units w/o FNP gain it
Relic : Reroll 1s to wound w/i 6''
Trait: Gain CP on a 6 for each CP used
Strat: Vect
Flayed Skull Tactic: +3" Move to FLY Models; FLY Models (or embarkees) ignore cover and reroll 1s to hit w/ RF Relic: 4++ after shadowfield fails
Trait: +1S +1A when charged or charging
Strat: +1 to Shoot FLY
Poisoned Tongue Tactic: Reroll 1s to wound for melee and poison
Relic: Meh pistol
Trait: Use WL leadership w/i 12"
Strat: Re-deploy 3 units before start of battle
Obsidian Rose Tactic: +6" to Assault, RF, and Heavy
Relic: 3+ Save (regular) and -1 to be hit in melee
Trait: +1 Damage for WL Strat: Feeling models shoot or fight - if they kill something then none flee
To me is seems you'd still be using Black Heart for Ravagers and Vect, but there are other facets that could potentially be exploited for maybe some interesting melee or poison spam.
I don't think any Eldar needed buffs other than Ynnari getting a little more breathing room.
My night lords already get #1 on that list. If gw would add #4 (which we had at the end of 7th) I'd be thrilled. Wb players would probably take any ONE of those.
So what are you complaining about?
Naa, PA is missed chance to make units interesting and back on the table.
Most of abilities look like are typed by person who never played the game and are not well designed to even the most casual player to take them.
They did very little for most unused models, so they will continue to stay in the shelfs.
Incubi and banshees received new models. Incubi stayed in their crazy 16 pts price tag and banshees received generally nothing for players to start using them regularly.
Squad of fire dragons is expensive like squad of Assault centurions, the second have a lot more firepower, they are tough and can fight in melee. It`s just mind boggling that they did not receive any damage increase and got melee buffs for the single 2 attack exarch.
CWE have army of specialist, who can`t do their specialty good.
Banshees can`t kill MEQs, they are supposed to cut through. Banshees are supposed to kill marines and Incubi like butter.
Scorpions can`t kill hordes, since you lack a way to make reliable charges from deepstrike, without support and even if you manage to do it they have to little attacks. Full squad of 10 scorpions without any buffs kills 4-5 boyz, maybe 2-3 more if you are lucky and roll those 6 for the mandiblasters.
Fire dragons can`t kill armor. Low range, low volume of fire, need support to be good.
The idea of having specialist units, is that you don`t need to babysit them with other units, for them to do their job.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/04 09:24:03
Argive wrote: And here I am considering dropping £20 on the PR book for CWE rules..
Yeah, the £20 hurts but you do need the rules to play the game. Hopefully you get some use out of the rules, I think I'm using a grand total of 5 of the new rules from the book.
GW could have taken the opportunity to fix some of the internal balance issues in the codex but instead tacked on some rules to units that don't have a place because their rules or stats aren't good enough to be playable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/04 10:25:23
Well, the main point about the new Ynnari is the changing of the special rule ''Strength from Death''.
The former was powerful but the new one is absolutely crap in a faction that has only a few strong cc units such as Taloi and Grotesques which cannot benefit from SfD at all. I am lost about that much synergy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/04 10:39:48
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wuestenfux wrote: Well, the main point about the new Ynnari is the changing of the special rule ''Strength from Death''.
The former was powerful but the new one is absolutely crap in a faction that has only a few strong cc units such as Taloi and Grotesques which cannot benefit from SfD at all. I am lost about that much synergy.
Average ability that need units to die to be active, if it was passive atleast you could play the game.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, the main point about the new Ynnari is the changing of the special rule ''Strength from Death''.
The former was powerful but the new one is absolutely crap in a faction that has only a few strong cc units such as Taloi and Grotesques which cannot benefit from SfD at all. I am lost about that much synergy.
Some cynics would attest that GW does not playtest propperly, some other attest that their release schedule makes playtesting virtually useless.
And some others question if they even have playtesting.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Their own ad blurb called out "Codex Supplement-tier updates for these armies" with a bunch of Chaos icons. I take it the new Chaos rules fell short of that by a lot?
Tyel wrote: Its incredibly thin.
From a DE perspective you get five pages, covering 2 datasheets and 3 sets of traits, almost all of which are worse than options you already have outside of niche cases (the as mentioned test of skill flyers for instance). There may be options for pure mix and match - but at the cost of giving up chapter specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems. Labyrinthine Cunning, Vect, Living Muse? That's a lot to give up unless you are having two kabal detachments (and I know many do for flayed skull, but still.)
Its unclear anything that wasn't viable before has been made so by this addition. So it isn't very interesting from a design perspective.
For CWE its a similar story. Okay, its even more unclear why you wouldn't max out your Crimson Hunter Exarchs - but the bulk of the rest is just fluffy sidegrades, and the successor craftworld traits as a whole are marginal. It may be worth getting cover and another ability rather than -1 to hit outside 12 but its not obviously game changing.
Ynnari cost reductions were obvious - but it doesn't change the fact the faction has been cut off at the knees. Funner to play casually - but not influencing the meta.
As for the fluff there is very little here.
For the sake of those without the book and/or familiarity with DE this is what is available:
PICK TWO
1) -1 ld bubble from DE units (no self-stack)
2) Fall back & Charge; One mortal wound on a 6 when enemies charge any number of units
3) Lose only one model to morale
4) Advance and charge rerolls; unmod 6s to hit in melee auto wounds (not vs VEHICLE/TITAN)
5) +3" Move to FLY models
6) Reroll 1s for FNP; Units w/o FNP gain it
7) Unmod 6s to wound with poison is +1 Damage (not on artefacts)
8) Deepstrike more out of webway portal
-- No specific relics, strats, traits
Versus:
Black Heart Tactic: +1 to Power from Pain (better than the first half of 4 above); Units w/o FNP gain it
Relic : Reroll 1s to wound w/i 6''
Trait: Gain CP on a 6 for each CP used
Strat: Vect
Flayed Skull Tactic: +3" Move to FLY Models; FLY Models (or embarkees) ignore cover and reroll 1s to hit w/ RF Relic: 4++ after shadowfield fails
Trait: +1S +1A when charged or charging
Strat: +1 to Shoot FLY
Poisoned Tongue Tactic: Reroll 1s to wound for melee and poison
Relic: Meh pistol
Trait: Use WL leadership w/i 12"
Strat: Re-deploy 3 units before start of battle
Obsidian Rose Tactic: +6" to Assault, RF, and Heavy
Relic: 3+ Save (regular) and -1 to be hit in melee
Trait: +1 Damage for WL Strat: Feeling models shoot or fight - if they kill something then none flee
To me is seems you'd still be using Black Heart for Ravagers and Vect, but there are other facets that could potentially be exploited for maybe some interesting melee or poison spam.
I don't think any Eldar needed buffs other than Ynnari getting a little more breathing room.
My night lords already get #1 on that list. If gw would add #4 (which we had at the end of 7th) I'd be thrilled. Wb players would probably take any ONE of those.
So what are you complaining about?
That they are rubbish and don't work very well. I mean, #1 is already the Dark Creed Coven trait and people have tried it, it doesn't have much effect, not to mention the entire army gets that from turn 5 anyway thanks to Power from Pain. Daedalus description of #4 is a little disingenuous, it's not straight up reroll Advance and Charge, it's to do it from turn 1 because we get that through our Power from Pain from turn 2 onwards and this army is rarely in a position to charge turn 1 anyway. The real problem is that these are Kabal triats, and the subfaction has no dedicated combat units that would want to get that close to your opponent except for Incubi and Mandrakes, neither of which get a trait.
The point is that ALL night lords get is #1 which, yes, doesn't do much and de can take that or any other trait PLUS another trait from the list.
Also last I checked no one but eldar players thought they needed more useful traits, strategems, etc. Eldar are pretty good and have been for a few editions. If they got the full sm treatment they would be broken.
Maybe eldar didn't get ad much help because they didn't need as much help.
Yes, night lords trait is bad (I know, my Coven gets exactly, exactly the same trait, with no additional rules at all) but that is not the NL trait. It doesn't stack at all, it's only -1.
Realistically, for DE, PA offers 3 things.
1) better rules for drazar, incubi, and the ability to take the passable Ynnari hqs as HQs, which is nice because you literally cannot take two battalions of the same DE splinter faction without taking one of those. We get 1 HQ choice. Yippee.
2) One new viable chapter trait for Wych Cults that competes with Cursed Blade and Red Grief. Test of Skill+Slashing Impact legitimately does help with many of the problems wyches have in this meta, namely the fact that they a dedicated melee unit get their gak absolutely smashed by a space marine unit who gets full effectiveness out to 30" range.
3) one new viable chapter trait for Coven in the form of the two +1 to wound shooting traits. It is definitely worth giving up the prophets of flesh trait with the right army composition, namely a Venomspam and Talos build.
There are a couple other combos a casual player can build around, but if you play competitively (and now that intercessors and repulsors are a tournament tier list that is most games I play at this point, because every marine player has just kind of accumulated those over the course of the edition. (
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Tyel wrote: Its incredibly thin.
From a DE perspective you get five pages, covering 2 datasheets and 3 sets of traits, almost all of which are worse than options you already have outside of niche cases (the as mentioned test of skill flyers for instance). There may be options for pure mix and match - but at the cost of giving up chapter specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems. Labyrinthine Cunning, Vect, Living Muse? That's a lot to give up unless you are having two kabal detachments (and I know many do for flayed skull, but still.)
Its unclear anything that wasn't viable before has been made so by this addition. So it isn't very interesting from a design perspective.
For CWE its a similar story. Okay, its even more unclear why you wouldn't max out your Crimson Hunter Exarchs - but the bulk of the rest is just fluffy sidegrades, and the successor craftworld traits as a whole are marginal. It may be worth getting cover and another ability rather than -1 to hit outside 12 but its not obviously game changing.
Ynnari cost reductions were obvious - but it doesn't change the fact the faction has been cut off at the knees. Funner to play casually - but not influencing the meta.
As for the fluff there is very little here.
For the sake of those without the book and/or familiarity with DE this is what is available:
PICK TWO
1) -1 ld bubble from DE units (no self-stack)
2) Fall back & Charge; One mortal wound on a 6 when enemies charge any number of units
3) Lose only one model to morale
4) Advance and charge rerolls; unmod 6s to hit in melee auto wounds (not vs VEHICLE/TITAN)
5) +3" Move to FLY models
6) Reroll 1s for FNP; Units w/o FNP gain it
7) Unmod 6s to wound with poison is +1 Damage (not on artefacts)
8) Deepstrike more out of webway portal
-- No specific relics, strats, traits
Versus:
Black Heart Tactic: +1 to Power from Pain (better than the first half of 4 above); Units w/o FNP gain it
Relic : Reroll 1s to wound w/i 6''
Trait: Gain CP on a 6 for each CP used
Strat: Vect
Flayed Skull Tactic: +3" Move to FLY Models; FLY Models (or embarkees) ignore cover and reroll 1s to hit w/ RF Relic: 4++ after shadowfield fails
Trait: +1S +1A when charged or charging
Strat: +1 to Shoot FLY
Poisoned Tongue Tactic: Reroll 1s to wound for melee and poison
Relic: Meh pistol
Trait: Use WL leadership w/i 12"
Strat: Re-deploy 3 units before start of battle
Obsidian Rose Tactic: +6" to Assault, RF, and Heavy
Relic: 3+ Save (regular) and -1 to be hit in melee
Trait: +1 Damage for WL Strat: Feeling models shoot or fight - if they kill something then none flee
To me is seems you'd still be using Black Heart for Ravagers and Vect, but there are other facets that could potentially be exploited for maybe some interesting melee or poison spam.
I don't think any Eldar needed buffs other than Ynnari getting a little more breathing room.
My night lords already get #1 on that list. If gw would add #4 (which we had at the end of 7th) I'd be thrilled. Wb players would probably take any ONE of those.
So what are you complaining about?
That they are rubbish and don't work very well. I mean, #1 is already the Dark Creed Coven trait and people have tried it, it doesn't have much effect, not to mention the entire army gets that from turn 5 anyway thanks to Power from Pain. Daedalus description of #4 is a little disingenuous, it's not straight up reroll Advance and Charge, it's to do it from turn 1 because we get that through our Power from Pain from turn 2 onwards and this army is rarely in a position to charge turn 1 anyway. The real problem is that these are Kabal triats, and the subfaction has no dedicated combat units that would want to get that close to your opponent except for Incubi and Mandrakes, neither of which get a trait.
The point is that ALL night lords get is #1 which, yes, doesn't do much and de can take that or any other trait PLUS another trait from the list.
Also last I checked no one but eldar players thought they needed more useful traits, strategems, etc. Eldar are pretty good and have been for a few editions. If they got the full sm treatment they would be broken.
Maybe eldar didn't get ad much help because they didn't need as much help.
Yes, night lords trait is bad (I know, my Coven gets exactly, exactly the same trait, with no additional rules at all) but that is not the NL trait. It doesn't stack at all, it's only -1.
Realistically, for DE, PA offers 3 things.
1) better rules for drazar, incubi, and the ability to take the passable Ynnari hqs as HQs, which is nice because you literally cannot take two battalions of the same DE splinter faction without taking one of those. We get 1 HQ choice. Yippee.
2) One new viable chapter trait for Wych Cults that competes with Cursed Blade and Red Grief. Test of Skill+Slashing Impact legitimately does help with many of the problems wyches have in this meta, namely the fact that they a dedicated melee unit get their gak absolutely smashed by a space marine unit who gets full effectiveness out to 30" range.
3) one new viable chapter trait for Coven in the form of the two +1 to wound shooting traits. It is definitely worth giving up the prophets of flesh trait with the right army composition, namely a Venomspam and Talos build.
There are a couple other combos a casual player can build around, but if you play competitively (and now that intercessors and repulsors are a tournament tier list that is most games I play at this point, because every marine player has just kind of accumulated those over the course of the edition. (
Wytch traits don`t look bad on paper:
Test of skills look good for bikes - wounding T7 vehicles on 4 and T8 on 5;
The art of pain - extra round power of pain.
For wytch lovers - the 3++ in close combat also look interesting
Maybe you have to test it before writting it out. Maybe it`s not top notch competitive, but i was going to try it if i was DE player.
Wytch traits don`t look bad on paper:
Test of skills look good for bikes - wounding T7 vehicles on 4 and T8 on 5;
The art of pain - extra round power of pain.
For wytch lovers - the 3++ in close combat also look interesting
Maybe you have to test it before writting it out. Maybe it`s not top notch competitive, but i was going to try it if i was DE player.
people have been trying the new obsessions and discussing them on various forums.
Test of skill is one of the best thing an airwing could get, it makes your disintegrator cannons wound vehicles on 4's instead of 5's.
art of pain is pretty underwhelming, the power from pain bonuses aren't really worth building around, its not because that part of the obsession that black heart is played.
3++ in combat that doesn't help you connect the charge, so your wyches will just get boltered from 24"+ away.
still, custom cults at least do things that help a melee-centric subfaction, not like the kabal ones that boost melee on 100% shooty units.
Does anyone actually think CWE got screwed here? Alaitoc -2 to hit spam isn't protecting you with marines rerolling all failed. That will not cut it. They were in need of a new power trait. Ignore cover / always counts in cover is insanely good.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Does anyone actually think CWE got screwed here? Alaitoc -2 to hit spam isn't protecting you with marines rerolling all failed. That will not cut it. They were in need of a new power trait. Ignore cover / always counts in cover is insanely good.
They didn't get screwed and I don't think anyone has said that, it's just that the supplement didn't really help them outside of making CHEs even better and MSU spam could be a thing should anyone want to try it.
Ignore cover is great until you face a smart opponent and they play around the fact they don't have cover. Then you have half of your army bonus being a relatively moot point.
You also have to consider that CWE got some great new banshee models and the first Aspect models in 10+ years but the rules are extremely lacking and they're very expensive to actually make work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/04 15:19:59
Argive wrote: And here I am considering dropping £20 on the PR book for CWE rules..
Yeah, the £20 hurts but you do need the rules to play the game. Hopefully you get some use out of the rules, I think I'm using a grand total of 5 of the new rules from the book.
GW could have taken the opportunity to fix some of the internal balance issues in the codex but instead tacked on some rules to units that don't have a place because their rules or stats aren't good enough to be playable.
Not disputing that opportunities have been missed lol
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
should still be a unit. 
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
Eldar- 4436 pts
