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 Daedalus81 wrote:
I dunno. I just get the feeling that blocking overwatch is a crucial ability coupled with reliable charges is a handy tool to have. Banshees and Spears are like a one two punch -- the 3 damage paragon sabre is perfect for tackling aggressors and you don't need CP spend to keep the original ability.

This is it right here. Advance + the 15 inch charge gets you in HTH turn 1 without overwatch; once you're in HTH, all the other units can charge because you've locked up the overwatch. I don't have as much experience playing as must of Dakka, so I may still be getting something wrong. But if I had an HTH unit I couldn't risk losing to overwatch as I charged, I would use Banshees to lock up the target before I charged in with the unit which was the real threat.

When Dakka assesses the effectiveness of a unit, they tend to use an either/ or model. I use a both/ and model.

Example: Striking scorpions are better than Banshees because x. Whereas I would say that Scorpions are even better when they have Banshees with them, because the Banshees charge in first in order to tie up over watchers.

Kinda like "Morale doesn't mean anything"... Unitl I park 20 footslogging sisters on an objective, and use AoF's for immunity to morale. But if I never tried that strategy, it's easy to believe that morale meaningless.

Like I said though, I freely admit, y'all have probably played more games of 8th than I have, so I acknowledge that I'm standing on shakey ground. I also hate it when people use the word "useless" when they really mean "It isn't as useful as I'd like it to be." If people stopped using this little feat of hyperbole, you'd see me acting as the defender of the unpopular a lot less. To argue that Banshees could be better? No problem- that's certainly true. To argue that Banshees are useless? Little harder to sell.

 Elbows wrote:
If you find yourself in a situation where you need to charge Aggressors...you're already in trouble. The Eldar do not have a single "mega" close combat unit. They haven't all edition. They have nothing that touches the efficiency of a Ork boyz unit, nothing that touches the pure damage output of a Bloodletter bomb, nothing that touches the madness of a Berzerker unit fighting 2-3 times, etc.

Spears are a great unit...but 36 points for a model as tough as a basic Primaris marine means you'll never field them in suitably large numbers. They have very strong attacks, but few of them (and die when stuck into combat if they don't win on the first charge). Maybe Wraithblades come closest, if teamed with the Ghost detachment from Vigilus...maybe?

Aspect Warriors only work in mixed company, sticking to the few spaces they fit in to do a task. If you want to use Banshees solely for tying stuff up, that's fine....a very tournament way of looking at the unit but fine.

in fairness should "pansy space elves" have a CC with the raw hitting power of a space marine or Ork?

That's where I think is pays to be aggressive against aggressors and cents. Any successor will remove any chance to charge them without overwatch block. Sallies will hide them behind the anti-targeting stratagem. White Scars can drop them on your head. Ultras and IH will move them in your face as if they never moved.

And then there's T'au.

Maybe I read the tables wrong, but there were a stuuuuuuuuupid amount of Assault Centurions with flamers floating around. I figure they want to exploit that 4 wound break-point against D3 weapons instead of hanging onto Aggressors.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Also paragon saber? Lol. SS exarchs can have a S8 Ap-4 D2 weapon. I haven't done the math but if three spears don't murk 5 intercwssors I done know what else you need.

I was thinking more along the lines of Aggressors sitting at 3 wounds. D2 requires twice as many attacks, but I keep forgetting that they're S3 so even with Doom probably no bueno.

Spears kill things dead, but if they need to be at 9" or 12" when facing down a pile of flamers they might wish for Banshees.

My personal opinion is that ignore overwatch is a dumb ability that shouldn't exist or just be limited to activations against 1 unit. With the way pile ins work and you being able to declare charges against everything in range...it is a very overpowered ability. It doesn't make banshees good enough though. They require too much to make them work...they need a serpent, and quicken because no one starts on the line at 24" line dunces. Quicken works better on other units.

If you want to shut down overwatch - take a solitare with the ignore overwatch relic.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
If you find yourself in a situation where you need to charge Aggressors...you're already in trouble. The Eldar do not have a single "mega" close combat unit. They haven't all edition. They have nothing that touches the efficiency of a Ork boyz unit, nothing that touches the pure damage output of a Bloodletter bomb, nothing that touches the madness of a Berzerker unit fighting 2-3 times, etc.

Spears are a great unit...but 36 points for a model as tough as a basic Primaris marine means you'll never field them in suitably large numbers. They have very strong attacks, but few of them (and die when stuck into combat if they don't win on the first charge). Maybe Wraithblades come closest, if teamed with the Ghost detachment from Vigilus...maybe?

Aspect Warriors only work in mixed company, sticking to the few spaces they fit in to do a task. If you want to use Banshees solely for tying stuff up, that's fine....a very tournament way of looking at the unit but fine.

in fairness should "pansy space elves" have a CC with the raw hitting power of a space marine or Ork?

Yes if they pay for it absolutely.

 Xenomancers wrote:

If you want to shut down overwatch - take a solitare with the ignore overwatch relic.

Gah. That's seems pretty costly all its own.

Hey, if we see Eldar players busting out the banshees to break the stranglehold of the new 11" flamer meta I'll be happy as a clam, but it serms the assertion here is "hey man, is your 130 point unit not capable of killing a min tac squad of intercessors or a guard squad? Well don't fret yall just take a second 120pt unit of spears to do that murdering job!

What, you say? Shooting units do that job with zero risk and from across the map, and the enemy doesn't get free shots at them for no reason before they get to randomly roll to determine whether they accomplish anything at all, they just roll the gunsy dice and the thing is gone?"

PenitentJake wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I dunno. I just get the feeling that blocking overwatch is a crucial ability coupled with reliable charges is a handy tool to have. Banshees and Spears are like a one two punch -- the 3 damage paragon sabre is perfect for tackling aggressors and you don't need CP spend to keep the original ability.

This is it right here. Advance + the 15 inch charge gets you in HTH turn 1 without overwatch; once you're in HTH, all the other units can charge because you've locked up the overwatch. I don't have as much experience playing as must of Dakka, so I may still be getting something wrong. But if I had an HTH unit I couldn't risk losing to overwatch as I charged, I would use Banshees to lock up the target before I charged in with the unit which was the real threat.

When Dakka assesses the effectiveness of a unit, they tend to use an either/ or model. I use a both/ and model.

Example: Striking scorpions are better than Banshees because x. Whereas I would say that Scorpions are even better when they have Banshees with them, because the Banshees charge in first in order to tie up over watchers.

Kinda like "Morale doesn't mean anything"... Unitl I park 20 footslogging sisters on an objective, and use AoF's for immunity to morale. But if I never tried that strategy, it's easy to believe that morale meaningless.

Like I said though, I freely admit, y'all have probably played more games of 8th than I have, so I acknowledge that I'm standing on shakey ground. I also hate it when people use the word "useless" when they really mean "It isn't as useful as I'd like it to be." If people stopped using this little feat of hyperbole, you'd see me acting as the defender of the unpopular a lot less. To argue that Banshees could be better? No problem- that's certainly true. To argue that Banshees are useless? Little harder to sell.

Your Banshees will only make that turn 1 charge if you roll nothing but 6's, averages say you wont reach your opponents deployment zone. But on the off hand you do make it, congratulations, you've just outrun the rest of your army, will fail to kill anything because they're banshees, and your target will then fall back in their turn whilst the rest of their army sneezes at the banshees and destroyes them. The alternative is to keep them back and wait for the rest of your combat units to get into position first, but now you have to fins ways to survive at least 1 round of shooting.

No Banshees do not make Scorpions better, Psykers and Autarchs make Scorpions better.

You've just proved why moral doesn't matter, not why it does.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
If you find yourself in a situation where you need to charge Aggressors...you're already in trouble. The Eldar do not have a single "mega" close combat unit. They haven't all edition. They have nothing that touches the efficiency of a Ork boyz unit, nothing that touches the pure damage output of a Bloodletter bomb, nothing that touches the madness of a Berzerker unit fighting 2-3 times, etc.

Spears are a great unit...but 36 points for a model as tough as a basic Primaris marine means you'll never field them in suitably large numbers. They have very strong attacks, but few of them (and die when stuck into combat if they don't win on the first charge). Maybe Wraithblades come closest, if teamed with the Ghost detachment from Vigilus...maybe?

Aspect Warriors only work in mixed company, sticking to the few spaces they fit in to do a task. If you want to use Banshees solely for tying stuff up, that's fine....a very tournament way of looking at the unit but fine.

in fairness should "pansy space elves" have a CC with the raw hitting power of a space marine or Ork?

Should a big, slow, stupid Ork boy have more attacks than a Space Elf dedicated to the art of close combat? No. That Ork boy also has as many attacks as a Space Marine captain while we're at it (oh and he's what...7 points? Half the cost of a Howling Banshee?). Lore-wise, yes a Howling Banshee squad should dice up an Ork mob with little to no issue. In game terms that's not the case at all. Even a basic Primaris marine has more attacks than a Howling Banshee.

Banshees would almost be fixed with simply three attacks a model. This edition is all about either swinging a big dick thunder hammer and crushing knights/vehicles/monsters...or throwing (in some cases, literally) hundreds of attacks so that your opponent simply withers to nothing. Banshees do neither of these things. The last time they were strong was 2nd edition, and that was only because power weapons had their own strength (Strength 5 for a power sword, by the way), and initiative mattered (a benefit the entire Eldar race lost with 8th edition essentially).

We know the game doesn't represent the lore, but it's basically always been that a Space Marine would be a dead match for an Aspect Warrior - both of whom would be light years ahead of the average Ork, etc.

Are there worse units than Howling Banshees? Sure, somewhere in the game. My point is simply that they gained nothing from this book...and oddly they're the featured unit/new model. That's all. It's weird and a shame. Some people who don't run them because they don't like finecast/metal might pick up the new plastics and they're in for a rude awakening when they try to field them.

the_scotsman wrote:
"hey man, is your 130 point unit not capable of killing a min tac squad of intercessors or a guard squad? Well don't fret yall just take a second 120pt unit of spears to do that murdering job!

What, you say? Shooting units do that job with zero risk and from across the map, and the enemy doesn't get free shots at them for no reason before they get to randomly roll to determine whether they accomplish anything at all, they just roll the gunsy dice and the thing is gone?"

That's not what was said. Also, the banshees are fully capable of taking on Intercessors and IS. I don't know where that hyperbole is coming from. The spears are there to take on hard targets.

Are you still taking Spears? If so, how do you expect to shoot or even charge with them against some of the marine lists?

 Elbows wrote:
If you find yourself in a situation where you need to charge Aggressors...you're already in trouble. The Eldar do not have a single "mega" close combat unit. They haven't all edition. They have nothing that touches the efficiency of a Ork boyz unit, nothing that touches the pure damage output of a Bloodletter bomb, nothing that touches the madness of a Berzerker unit fighting 2-3 times, etc.

Spears are a great unit...but 36 points for a model as tough as a basic Primaris marine means you'll never field them in suitably large numbers. They have very strong attacks, but few of them (and die when stuck into combat if they don't win on the first charge). Maybe Wraithblades come closest, if teamed with the Ghost detachment from Vigilus...maybe?

Aspect Warriors only work in mixed company, sticking to the few spaces they fit in to do a task. If you want to use Banshees solely for tying stuff up, that's fine....a very tournament way of looking at the unit but fine.

was going to say Wraithblades, in Vigilus using the +1 attack strat.

It really is odd though, brand new models led by a brand new Phx Lord, and yet they don't do anything to improve either unit.

 Imateria wrote:

Your Banshees will only make that turn 1 charge if you roll nothing but 6's, averages say you wont reach your opponents deployment zone. But on the off hand you do make it, congratulations, you've just outrun the rest of your army, will fail to kill anything because they're banshees, and your target will then fall back in their turn whilst the rest of their army sneezes at the banshees and destroyes them. The alternative is to keep them back and wait for the rest of your combat units to get into position first, but now you have to fins ways to survive at least 1 round of shooting.

No Banshees do not make Scorpions better, Psykers and Autarchs make Scorpions better.

You've just proved why moral doesn't matter, not why it does.

First of all, sorry about piling on in that post- the whole morale thing was actually a response to a separate comment and shouldn't have been included in the argument.

And yeah, I'm not saying Banshees are awesome, I'm just saying they aren't garbage. And you're right about them outpacing the army- they hit so fast, that no one else can benefit from the overwatch denial, except maybe Shining Spears.

Regarding the first turn charge phenomenon, the threat range is 14-29". That puts the average at 20".
If you go with Saim-Hann, you reroll charges.
If you go Biel-Tan, you get access to the Court of the Young King for +2 charge, but that's a two point strat.
I really like Aspect Warriors, so personally, I'd take two of the new traits- Headstrong for +1 on the charge and Children of Khaine so that every unmodified 6 to hit in melee does 2 damage.

Anyway, that's kind of over the top, but because I build armies one kill team at a time, an army of Aspects make sense. I was stoked that DA are troops- I always thought they were elites.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Also paragon saber? Lol. SS exarchs can have a S8 Ap-4 D2 weapon. I haven't done the math but if three spears don't murk 5 intercwssors I done know what else you need.

I was thinking more along the lines of Aggressors sitting at 3 wounds. D2 requires twice as many attacks, but I keep forgetting that they're S3 so even with Doom probably no bueno.

Spears kill things dead, but if they need to be at 9" or 12" when facing down a pile of flamers they might wish for Banshees.

Seeing as the Overwatch wouldn't be that dangerous unless the opponent was running 4+ of them in the same squad, your defense for Banshees is pretty awful so far.

PenitentJake wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I dunno. I just get the feeling that blocking overwatch is a crucial ability coupled with reliable charges is a handy tool to have. Banshees and Spears are like a one two punch -- the 3 damage paragon sabre is perfect for tackling aggressors and you don't need CP spend to keep the original ability.

This is it right here. Advance + the 15 inch charge gets you in HTH turn 1 without overwatch; once you're in HTH, all the other units can charge because you've locked up the overwatch. I don't have as much experience playing as must of Dakka, so I may still be getting something wrong. But if I had an HTH unit I couldn't risk losing to overwatch as I charged, I would use Banshees to lock up the target before I charged in with the unit which was the real threat.

When Dakka assesses the effectiveness of a unit, they tend to use an either/ or model. I use a both/ and model.

Example: Striking scorpions are better than Banshees because x. Whereas I would say that Scorpions are even better when they have Banshees with them, because the Banshees charge in first in order to tie up over watchers.

Kinda like "Morale doesn't mean anything"... Unitl I park 20 footslogging sisters on an objective, and use AoF's for immunity to morale. But if I never tried that strategy, it's easy to believe that morale meaningless.

Like I said though, I freely admit, y'all have probably played more games of 8th than I have, so I acknowledge that I'm standing on shakey ground. I also hate it when people use the word "useless" when they really mean "It isn't as useful as I'd like it to be." If people stopped using this little feat of hyperbole, you'd see me acting as the defender of the unpopular a lot less. To argue that Banshees could be better? No problem- that's certainly true. To argue that Banshees are useless? Little harder to sell.

If you can use index it`s better to use Autarch, since he can`t be shoot first turn. I created alot of list with banshees and they need wave seprent not to just get shoot down for LOS fire first turn.
So my list end without enough shooting or without unit that can use the no OW. Banshees don`t have fly, so it`s easy for every opponent to screen them, wrapping units like intercessors is just useless, when some captain can come and clear the banshees and spears for free.
Banshees are supposed to kill MEQS and now they just can`t, because of the lack of strength and damage. The 5++ and -1 to hit only in melee is not helping the matter, at least make it in shooting also, so they can annoy the opponent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
If you find yourself in a situation where you need to charge Aggressors...you're already in trouble. The Eldar do not have a single "mega" close combat unit. They haven't all edition. They have nothing that touches the efficiency of a Ork boyz unit, nothing that touches the pure damage output of a Bloodletter bomb, nothing that touches the madness of a Berzerker unit fighting 2-3 times, etc.

Spears are a great unit...but 36 points for a model as tough as a basic Primaris marine means you'll never field them in suitably large numbers. They have very strong attacks, but few of them (and die when stuck into combat if they don't win on the first charge). Maybe Wraithblades come closest, if teamed with the Ghost detachment from Vigilus...maybe?

Aspect Warriors only work in mixed company, sticking to the few spaces they fit in to do a task. If you want to use Banshees solely for tying stuff up, that's fine....a very tournament way of looking at the unit but fine.

in fairness should "pansy space elves" have a CC with the raw hitting power of a space marine or Ork?

Yes because the lore say they do. Elfs are supposed to be stronger and tougher than normal humans.

I don’t know why this topic has deviated so much from the original premise.

Banshees are poorly designed, underperforming units. If they get a points drop they might be viable but GW had a great opportunity with Phoenix Rising and squandered it. If they are supposed Meq killers why didn’t GW give them a rule like ‘if this units attacks are used against an infantry model with a 3+ save or better, they always wound on a roll of 4+, regardless of any modifiers’. Or just make their swords give +1 strength. Power swords on str 3 models are useless.

But it’s not just about the rules, GW clearly put less thought and effort into Phoenix Rising compared to the Marine supplements. As has been said - much of the art is old, there are pages of old rules and data sheets reprinted and the rules are not only lacklustre but also largely boring and uninspired. That is the real shame here.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don’t know why this topic has deviated so much from the original premise.

Banshees are poorly designed, underperforming units. If they get a points drop they might be viable but GW had a great opportunity with Phoenix Rising and squandered it. If they are supposed Meq killers why didn’t GW give them a rule like ‘if this units attacks are used against an infantry model with a 3+ save or better, they always wound on a roll of 4+, regardless of any modifiers’. Or just make their swords give +1 strength. Power swords on str 3 models are useless.

But it’s not just about the rules, GW clearly put less thought and effort into Phoenix Rising compared to the Marine supplements. As has been said - much of the art is old, there are pages of old rules and data sheets reprinted and the rules are not only lacklustre but also largely boring and uninspired. That is the real shame here.

GW didn't put thought into the Marine supplements either. It's just on the opposite end.
"What about super doctrines?"
"Yeah sure whatever have it done next Friday!"
Nothing like that should've gone beyond the brainstorming table and that's it.

Conceptually the super doctrines aren't bad though, the issue is more that they are comparativly nuts.

Further, GW could've finally enforced that allies need to take the according detachment, that would've also sorted some issues.

But the super doctrines as is right now are just way too advantagous.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don’t know why this topic has deviated so much from the original premise.

Banshees are poorly designed, underperforming units. If they get a points drop they might be viable but GW had a great opportunity with Phoenix Rising and squandered it. If they are supposed Meq killers why didn’t GW give them a rule like ‘if this units attacks are used against an infantry model with a 3+ save or better, they always wound on a roll of 4+, regardless of any modifiers’. Or just make their swords give +1 strength. Power swords on str 3 models are useless.

But it’s not just about the rules, GW clearly put less thought and effort into Phoenix Rising compared to the Marine supplements. As has been said - much of the art is old, there are pages of old rules and data sheets reprinted and the rules are not only lacklustre but also largely boring and uninspired. That is the real shame here.

GW didn't put thought into the Marine supplements either. It's just on the opposite end.
"What about super doctrines?"
"Yeah sure whatever have it done next Friday!"
Nothing like that should've gone beyond the brainstorming table and that's it.

Oh I disagree. I think they put a LOT of thought about how heir rules might encourage the purchase of certain models see - Iron Father Brokenios.

What they didn't think about was balance and on that you're absolutely correct.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/7k1tp0/im_james_m_hewitt_freelance_tabletop_games/drb6ka0/

The balance could be two things, A they didn't care and just want to sell through rule of cool. B they want to sell by willfully breaking stuff.

Banshees weren't good to start with and they're not a lot better with additional rules. I can't believe there was an actual discussion about whether they're good.

An Actual Englishman, Marin and the_scotsman sum up my views pretty nicely on this matter.

 Xenomancers wrote:

My personal opinion is that ignore overwatch is a dumb ability that shouldn't exist

Funny, I'd say the same thing about Overwatch.

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

My personal opinion is that ignore overwatch is a dumb ability that shouldn't exist

Funny, I'd say the same thing about Overwatch.

Overwatch against the average BS3 unit without any buffs is fine I think. They usually rely on quality shots so them hitting on 6s make them only 1/4th as accurate as a normal shooting phase. But when you add in rerolls, exploding 6s or hitting on 4s/5s, or units that already had bad BS but a large amount of shots, the overwatching unit basically gets a second shooting phase. And if they kill the first target they might even kill the second charging unit as well since they arent even limited to 1 overwatch per turn.

Units like ork boys and plaguebearers can soak a few casualties with no problem but what about 5-10 man squads? Smaller elite units run a real risk of getting wiped when charging knights, AM tanks, Iron Hand, Tau before even getting in to close combat. Many of them can even kill a charging rhino or dreadnought on OW alone. So without ignore overwatch abilities charging would be impossible sometimes unless there are ruins everywhere! 5 tac marines shooting overwatch is one thing but how do you charge a leviathan that hits on 4s with full rerolls to hit and reroll 1s to wound unless you have a 20 model + unit in your codex if they removed "ignore overwatch"?

Klickor wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

My personal opinion is that ignore overwatch is a dumb ability that shouldn't exist

Funny, I'd say the same thing about Overwatch.

Overwatch against the average BS3 unit without any buffs is fine I think. They usually rely on quality shots so them hitting on 6s make them only 1/4th as accurate as a normal shooting phase. But when you add in rerolls, exploding 6s or hitting on 4s/5s, or units that already had bad BS but a large amount of shots, the overwatching unit basically gets a second shooting phase. And if they kill the first target they might even kill the second charging unit as well since they arent even limited to 1 overwatch per turn.

Units like ork boys and plaguebearers can soak a few casualties with no problem but what about 5-10 man squads? Smaller elite units run a real risk of getting wiped when charging knights, AM tanks, Iron Hand, Tau before even getting in to close combat. Many of them can even kill a charging rhino or dreadnought on OW alone. So without ignore overwatch abilities charging would be impossible sometimes unless there are ruins everywhere! 5 tac marines shooting overwatch is one thing but how do you charge a leviathan that hits on 4s with full rerolls to hit and reroll 1s to wound unless you have a 20 model + unit in your codex if they removed "ignore overwatch"?

OW design is questionable when you have in mind how melee is performing. Still Tao and new SM are the reason it looks like real issue.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Also paragon saber? Lol. SS exarchs can have a S8 Ap-4 D2 weapon. I haven't done the math but if three spears don't murk 5 intercwssors I done know what else you need.

I was thinking more along the lines of Aggressors sitting at 3 wounds. D2 requires twice as many attacks, but I keep forgetting that they're S3 so even with Doom probably no bueno.

Spears kill things dead, but if they need to be at 9" or 12" when facing down a pile of flamers they might wish for Banshees.

Seeing as the Overwatch wouldn't be that dangerous unless the opponent was running 4+ of them in the same squad, your defense for Banshees is pretty awful so far.

So you're not looking at the SoCal lists, either? K.

You're 6-0 with marines right now, right? Played any eldar?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Also paragon saber? Lol. SS exarchs can have a S8 Ap-4 D2 weapon. I haven't done the math but if three spears don't murk 5 intercwssors I done know what else you need.

I was thinking more along the lines of Aggressors sitting at 3 wounds. D2 requires twice as many attacks, but I keep forgetting that they're S3 so even with Doom probably no bueno.

Spears kill things dead, but if they need to be at 9" or 12" when facing down a pile of flamers they might wish for Banshees.

Seeing as the Overwatch wouldn't be that dangerous unless the opponent was running 4+ of them in the same squad, your defense for Banshees is pretty awful so far.

So you're not looking at the SoCal lists, either? K.

You're 6-0 with marines right now, right? Played any eldar?

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

 Xenomancers wrote:
My personal opinion is that ignore overwatch is a dumb ability that shouldn't exist or just be limited to activations against 1 unit.

My personal opinion is that being able to fall back for free without taking any form of 'overwatch' like melee attacks in return and leaving the attackers who have had to hike up the board, getting shot at, declare a charge, and get shot at and THEN pass a charge roll just for the chance to do damage vs a unit which can sit back and plink of shots all day and even then may be able to fall back and shoot (Looking at you UM...) the next turn, leaving you a wide open target.

40k has always been a shooting game yes, but this edition melee has been punished increasingly hard, especially with the new fallback rules and VERY few units being able to lock you in combat. How on earth can you just slink away without the melee attackers who are literally on top of you not getting some parting hits off?! And then say negating overwatch is a dumb ability when it's something melee based armies have to deal with and there is no melee equivalent for you to worry about.

This is unfortunate. Never expected this thread. Didnt read it yet

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don’t know why this topic has deviated so much from the original premise.

Banshees are poorly designed, underperforming units. If they get a points drop they might be viable but GW had a great opportunity with Phoenix Rising and squandered it. If they are supposed Meq killers why didn’t GW give them a rule like ‘if this units attacks are used against an infantry model with a 3+ save or better, they always wound on a roll of 4+, regardless of any modifiers’. Or just make their swords give +1 strength. Power swords on str 3 models are useless.

But it’s not just about the rules, GW clearly put less thought and effort into Phoenix Rising compared to the Marine supplements. As has been said - much of the art is old, there are pages of old rules and data sheets reprinted and the rules are not only lacklustre but also largely boring and uninspired. That is the real shame here.

GW didn't put thought into the Marine supplements either. It's just on the opposite end.
"What about super doctrines?"
"Yeah sure whatever have it done next Friday!"
Nothing like that should've gone beyond the brainstorming table and that's it.

Oh I disagree. I think they put a LOT of thought about how heir rules might encourage the purchase of certain models see - Iron Father Brokenios.

What they didn't think about was balance and on that you're absolutely correct.

The Iron Father might have been 15-20 points undercosted but he was definitely not broken in any way.
And yeah that's basically what I meant with the "thought" put into the rules, thanks for understanding!


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Also paragon saber? Lol. SS exarchs can have a S8 Ap-4 D2 weapon. I haven't done the math but if three spears don't murk 5 intercwssors I done know what else you need.

I was thinking more along the lines of Aggressors sitting at 3 wounds. D2 requires twice as many attacks, but I keep forgetting that they're S3 so even with Doom probably no bueno.

Spears kill things dead, but if they need to be at 9" or 12" when facing down a pile of flamers they might wish for Banshees.

Seeing as the Overwatch wouldn't be that dangerous unless the opponent was running 4+ of them in the same squad, your defense for Banshees is pretty awful so far.

So you're not looking at the SoCal lists, either? K.

You're 6-0 with marines right now, right? Played any eldar?

Yeah, two games with one using the "new and improved" Banshees, and I live near SoCal. No, I don't fear someone using Banshees whatsoever as a Raven Guard player, and I'll likely fear them less as I try out variations of Ultramarines and Imperial Fists

Marin wrote:

Yea ? There were alot of aeldar using banshees ?

No, but I'm curious about his list and experiences.

It's pretty clear people don't like using melee units that aren't point and click like Spears. It isn't that Banshees are bad. It's that no one wants to bother dealing with the difficulties of melee. Banshees being 3A won't change that.

Marine units would kill for advance / charge with a +3 / no overwatch / -1 to be hit in melee, but they can carry thunderhammers and it would be broken as gak wouldn't it? Can you imagine VV like that?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

If you want to shut down overwatch - take a solitare with the ignore overwatch relic.

Gah. That's seems pretty costly all its own.

Solitare is cheap man.