Wouldn't you expect a Metal Gear Solid sort of situation? The marine gets deployed with a bit of basic gear and is expected to scavenge supplies where he can. Grenades are easy enough. Pick them off a corpse, pull the pin and lob towards the enemy. A Boltgun is a little trickier. Perhaps some officers and sergeants would have a couple of clips the beakie could steal on the way past.
But this is more describing a covert ops situation, meaning it's not really 1 v 10'000 but 1v1 10'000 times over.
If the marine can "Beat" the 10'000 by performing an objective, like knifing a general or someone they're guarding then legging it to an extraction point then yeah I'd believe it.
A Town Called Malus wrote: The problem with resupplying by drop pod is that it can be intercepted, and if not then you are also painting a big "shoot me" target on the landing site.
Drop pod lands, space marines converge to restock their ammo, Earthshaker barrage obliterates the LZ, all marines at the LZ are dead and all ammo is lost.
Resupply from the air is really difficult, as the Germans learned on the Eastern front of WW2. Resupply from orbit? Even worse as if you can track the ship in orbit which is launching the supplies (which is not a difficult task), and you know the area that the marines are operating in, you know exactly what windows are open for them to be resupplied.
I think there are a number of assumptions going on there that may not apply. Iirc there is such a thing as a "stealth" Pod. Pods are more controllable than WWII chutes. I'd imagine something more like a small, stealthy criuse missile.
It might also be possible that any artillery around doesn't want to fire, because to do so would give its position to the ship in orbit. Lots of variables here.
A Town Called Malus wrote: You can't be stealthy when coming in from orbit. You are a giant flaming object in the sky. It is impossible not to be due to the laws of physics.
I mean...you don't HAVE to be, but you're going to have to bring a stupid amount of fuel for it lol.
There’s relatively little stopping it being dropped hundreds of miles from the Marine’s last known position, as it’s established they can run for days on end. And provided there’s no time sensitivity to the Marine’s task, he can make that journey as many times as are needed.
Deploy it somewhere tricky to get to (up a Mountain seems one possibility, as that would prevent mechanised infantry outracing you) and so much the better.
Though if you’re in a position for orbital supply drops, just Bombard the enemy from orbit.
A Town Called Malus wrote: You can't be stealthy when coming in from orbit. You are a giant flaming object in the sky. It is impossible not to be due to the laws of physics.
I mean...you don't HAVE to be, but you're going to have to bring a stupid amount of fuel for it lol.
Not even that, as the ship ferrying the payload can reduce its orbital speed by either decelerating itself, or just taking a higher orbit so that it's stable speed relative to the ground is lower or even geostationary.
A Town Called Malus wrote: You can't be stealthy when coming in from orbit. You are a giant flaming object in the sky. It is impossible not to be due to the laws of physics.
I mean...you don't HAVE to be, but you're going to have to bring a stupid amount of fuel for it lol.
Not even that, as the ship ferrying the payload can reduce its orbital speed by either decelerating itself, or just taking a higher orbit so that it's stable speed relative to the ground is lower or even geostationary.
I'm not sure I understand that. How does the ship reducing its orbital speed influence the heat signature of a drop pod entering atmosphere?
That question is not meant snarky, I guess I just misunderstand something at the moment.
A Town Called Malus wrote: You can't be stealthy when coming in from orbit. You are a giant flaming object in the sky. It is impossible not to be due to the laws of physics.
I mean...you don't HAVE to be, but you're going to have to bring a stupid amount of fuel for it lol.
Not even that, as the ship ferrying the payload can reduce its orbital speed by either decelerating itself, or just taking a higher orbit so that it's stable speed relative to the ground is lower or even geostationary.
That does nothing for the actual delivery of the supplies, as they still need to transition from that orbit to the planet surface and will be accelerating towards the planet the entire time (This needs to be the case or else their orbit doesn't change and they are also going deeper into the gravity well of the planet) and so will still be travelling extremely fast once they hit the atmosphere. And sitting in geostationary orbit even further limits the area that you can resupply, making interception even easier.
A Town Called Malus wrote: You can't be stealthy when coming in from orbit. You are a giant flaming object in the sky. It is impossible not to be due to the laws of physics.
I mean...you don't HAVE to be, but you're going to have to bring a stupid amount of fuel for it lol.
Not even that, as the ship ferrying the payload can reduce its orbital speed by either decelerating itself, or just taking a higher orbit so that it's stable speed relative to the ground is lower or even geostationary.
It's still a stupid amount of fuel, just in a different location (we should probably avoid looking too closely at voidship propulsion, tbh...I know just enough that it looks like it tortures those who know more about that sort of thing ).
A Town Called Malus wrote: You can't be stealthy when coming in from orbit. You are a giant flaming object in the sky. It is impossible not to be due to the laws of physics.
I mean...you don't HAVE to be, but you're going to have to bring a stupid amount of fuel for it lol.
Not even that, as the ship ferrying the payload can reduce its orbital speed by either decelerating itself, or just taking a higher orbit so that it's stable speed relative to the ground is lower or even geostationary.
That does nothing for the actual delivery of the supplies, as they still need to transition from that orbit to the planet surface and will be accelerating towards the planet the entire time (This needs to be the case or else their orbit doesn't change and they are also going deeper into the gravity well of the planet) and so will still be travelling extremely fast once they hit the atmosphere. And sitting in geostationary orbit even further limits the area that you can resupply, making interception even easier.
Drop Pods have internal guidance, and at least some capacity to alter course though.
It’s also worth noting they’re described as travelling at extreme velocity, with the Marine’s enhanced physiology, armour and that being the reason they don’t turn into splutchy pancakes when the rapid deceleration (described as happening relatively last moment) kicks in.
Depending on how robustly built a hypothetical supply pod is, that deceleration could be even more extreme, as there’s no living being at risk of being pulped. Guess that depends on what’s aboard, and how unstable any ammo might prove under those circumstances - and indeed if, unlike regular Drop Pods, there’s any expectation of recovering it post-action.
As for the streak of fire? Surely that’s solely for initial entry to the atmosphere, and not the entire downward journey? Add in the Marine Drop Pods established, however limited, self steering capability, tracking its touchdown location may not be that easy. Even assuming Guard regiments have that capacity themselves, and it’s not something provided by Naval Assets. Even if it is, can we say for certain it’s sensitive enough to pick up what needn’t be a particularly large pod if it’s solely depositing ammo planetside travelling at extreme speeds.
A Town Called Malus wrote: You can't be stealthy when coming in from orbit. You are a giant flaming object in the sky. It is impossible not to be due to the laws of physics.
I mean...you don't HAVE to be, but you're going to have to bring a stupid amount of fuel for it lol.
Not even that, as the ship ferrying the payload can reduce its orbital speed by either decelerating itself, or just taking a higher orbit so that it's stable speed relative to the ground is lower or even geostationary.
That does nothing for the actual delivery of the supplies, as they still need to transition from that orbit to the planet surface and will be accelerating towards the planet the entire time (This needs to be the case or else their orbit doesn't change and they are also going deeper into the gravity well of the planet) and so will still be travelling extremely fast once they hit the atmosphere. And sitting in geostationary orbit even further limits the area that you can resupply, making interception even easier.
Ahh right, the "has to go backwards relative to the ship" thing.
Ok so my understanding however is that all you're trying to do is hit the atmosphere at a relatively low speed. So if you have a ship (Space Shuttle) doing mach 25 in low orbit relative to the ground, all you have to do is accelerate the payload to a similar speed in the opposite direction to hit the atmosphere at . . . Well, not mach 25. Something lower, but I don't know what's required.
But accelerating something to that speed in space shouldn't really be that fuel expensive, since you're not working against gravity or air pressure, and I'd say you could start the proccess by railgunning the thing out.
But accelerating something to that speed in space shouldn't really be that fuel expensive, since you're not working against gravity or air pressure, and I'd say you could start the proccess by railgunning the thing out.
Orbital speeds are crazy high (low earth orbit is over 7 km/s) and you're going to need a ton of thrust all at once to bring the supply drop orbital speed down to zero before it hits the atmosphere, so you can't rely on an ion thruster or something that takes a long time to change the speed of the pod. That said I really don't think the supply drop will be too much of a give away of location overall so long as the marine can retrieve the supplies and move them elsewhere. If anything, it might be in the marines favor (assuming infantry only) as the guard regiment would probably dispatch a patrol to investigate the anomaly. Granted that'd probably only work once as I doubt a marine would be able to off an entire patrol before someone can report back.
As for the streak of fire? Surely that’s solely for initial entry to the atmosphere, and not the entire downward journey? Add in the Marine Drop Pods established, however limited, self steering capability, tracking its touchdown location may not be that easy. Even assuming Guard regiments have that capacity themselves, and it’s not something provided by Naval Assets. Even if it is, can we say for certain it’s sensitive enough to pick up what needn’t be a particularly large pod if it’s solely depositing ammo planetside travelling at extreme speeds.
The streak of fire is due to friction heating up the air, due to the extreme velocity of the object not giving time for air to move out of the way and so it gets compressed and as a result heats up. You can't have both "extreme speeds" in atmosphere and no effects of that, especially when the object in question has the aerodynamical properties of a brick. So either the drop pod has to brake to the point where it is no longer travelling fast enough for friction to superheat the air around it, which means that it is now travelling slow enough to be targeted by weapon systems such as those used to intercept missiles, or it has to keep being a streak of fire.
Sidenote I had today:
Regarding (C)SM one standard design feature of any (Traitor)Guard Bunker/fortified building/tunnel should be Krakmines that are triggered by somethin > 250 kg stepping on it. Ogryn won't ever wander around there anyway and there should be large areas were no allied Marine would ever be expected to trespass. Thinking of short films like Astartes it's kind of hilarious thinking about the SM running after a bunch of Traitor Guardsmen through a tunnel and suddenly the whole floor explodes into their face.
Or even more basic: make some access tunnels in your Rockcrete bunker narrow enough and the SM can quite simply not fit through. That's a story I would like to read/see some time "Sorry Chapter Master, we can't storm the bunker, we just don't fit..."
Contrast the speeds of those drop pods with the velocities of missiles we can see in the many videos of russian missiles shot down by shoulder-fired anti-air missiles in Ukraine.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Also, the Dawn of War opening cinematic showing drop pods shows them actually moving pretty damn slow, even before they fire their retro-thrusters.
Contrast the speeds of those drop pods with the velocities of missiles we can see in the many videos of russian missiles shot down by shoulder-fired anti-air missiles in Ukraine.
40K wiki thing mentions speeds of 12,000kph on descent, fast enough to evade “all but the most advanced AA system”.
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Pyroalchi wrote: Sidenote I had today:
Regarding (C)SM one standard design feature of any (Traitor)Guard Bunker/fortified building/tunnel should be Krakmines that are triggered by somethin > 250 kg stepping on it. Ogryn won't ever wander around there anyway and there should be large areas were no allied Marine would ever be expected to trespass. Thinking of short films like Astartes it's kind of hilarious thinking about the SM running after a bunch of Traitor Guardsmen through a tunnel and suddenly the whole floor explodes into their face.
Or even more basic: make some access tunnels in your Rockcrete bunker narrow enough and the SM can quite simply not fit through. That's a story I would like to read/see some time "Sorry Chapter Master, we can't storm the bunker, we just don't fit..."
Tell that to the STC you relied on to build your bunker
Also need space for hauling cargo and equipment around your bunker.
Notice that Grotsnik isn't responding to the people who picked his argument apart and is trying to change the subject. This is bad-faith argumentation and is making the forum shittier.
But accelerating something to that speed in space shouldn't really be that fuel expensive, since you're not working against gravity or air pressure, and I'd say you could start the proccess by railgunning the thing out.
Orbital speeds are crazy high (low earth orbit is over 7 km/s) and you're going to need a ton of thrust all at once to bring the supply drop orbital speed down to zero before it hits the atmosphere, so you can't rely on an ion thruster or something that takes a long time to change the speed of the pod. That said I really don't think the supply drop will be too much of a give away of location overall so long as the marine can retrieve the supplies and move them elsewhere. If anything, it might be in the marines favor (assuming infantry only) as the guard regiment would probably dispatch a patrol to investigate the anomaly. Granted that'd probably only work once as I doubt a marine would be able to off an entire patrol before someone can report back.
I realize it's fast (7km/s is about mach 20, and I said mach 25 ). The thing is I'm not convinced that it takes huge amounts of fuel to get there. That might sound odd, given the amount of fuel it takes to put something into orbit, but I think the vast majority of that is to get something UP there through the atmosphere in the first place. Now I'm totally not a mathematician or scientist, but I'm thinking of the absolutely tiny Orbiter and Lunar Lander on the return trips for the Saturn V missions. One of those tiny little ships had to get off the moon, and the other one had to return all the way back to earth. I think the reason they could do that is that the gravity of the moon is so low, and there's no resistance in space.
I'm also thinking of the X-15, which made it to mach 6 or 7 in atmosphere with all that air resistance, and it wasn't that big of a craft. And the amount of fuel necessary relies on the efficiency of that fuel. Like, in handwavium 40k terms . . . could be whatever, right? I mean a Thunderhawk can make it to orbit, soooo. (It sorta hurts my brain to be that handwavy, tbh though) But whatevs. Consider some sort of increase in fuel efficiency since the 1960's.
So I'm sorta putting together a picture of: Railgun out for a initial kick to mach 5-6, then a no resistance burn to get the rest of the velocity necessary, then a "break-apart" possibly for the purposes of detection-confusion, with a deployed stealth glider-pod that covers the rest of the descent. Something released that high could travel hundreds of miles in-glide, so from a ground-detection standpoint it'd be really hard to figure out where it's going once it's in "stealth mode" after its initial burn.
But accelerating something to that speed in space shouldn't really be that fuel expensive, since you're not working against gravity or air pressure, and I'd say you could start the proccess by railgunning the thing out.
Orbital speeds are crazy high (low earth orbit is over 7 km/s) and you're going to need a ton of thrust all at once to bring the supply drop orbital speed down to zero before it hits the atmosphere, so you can't rely on an ion thruster or something that takes a long time to change the speed of the pod. That said I really don't think the supply drop will be too much of a give away of location overall so long as the marine can retrieve the supplies and move them elsewhere. If anything, it might be in the marines favor (assuming infantry only) as the guard regiment would probably dispatch a patrol to investigate the anomaly. Granted that'd probably only work once as I doubt a marine would be able to off an entire patrol before someone can report back.
I realize it's fast (7km/s is about mach 20, and I said mach 25 ). The thing is I'm not convinced that it takes huge amounts of fuel to get there. That might sound odd, given the amount of fuel it takes to put something into orbit, but I think the vast majority of that is to get something UP there through the atmosphere in the first place. Now I'm totally not a mathematician or scientist, but I'm thinking of the absolutely tiny Orbiter and Lunar Lander on the return trips for the Saturn V missions. One of those tiny little ships had to get off the moon, and the other one had to return all the way back to earth. I think the reason they could do that is that the gravity of the moon is so low, and there's no resistance in space.
I'm also thinking of the X-15, which made it to mach 6 or 7 in atmosphere with all that air resistance, and it wasn't that big of a craft. And the amount of fuel necessary relies on the efficiency of that fuel. Like, in handwavium 40k terms . . . could be whatever, right? I mean a Thunderhawk can make it to orbit, soooo. (It sorta hurts my brain to be that handwavy, tbh though) But whatevs. Consider some sort of increase in fuel efficiency since the 1960's.
So I'm sorta putting together a picture of: Railgun out for a initial kick to mach 5-6, then a no resistance burn to get the rest of the velocity necessary, then a "break-apart" possibly for the purposes of detection-confusion, with a deployed stealth glider-pod that covers the rest of the descent. Something released that high could travel hundreds of miles in-glide, so from a ground-detection standpoint it'd be really hard to figure out where it's going once it's in "stealth mode" after its initial burn.
I think the "lots of fuel" bit was in reference to slowing a supply drop down so it doesn't be really obvious.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Also, the Dawn of War opening cinematic showing drop pods shows them actually moving pretty damn slow, even before they fire their retro-thrusters.
Contrast the speeds of those drop pods with the velocities of missiles we can see in the many videos of russian missiles shot down by shoulder-fired anti-air missiles in Ukraine.
Yah, well . . . as much as I love that trailer I think we can toss that one out for reference, as there are multiple descriptions about them traveling wicked fast. Besides, look at their behavior in the actual game itself, where they absolutely SLAM down into the ground.
I mean, they're probably not descending slowly until the last 200 meters, where they then turn on the big butt rocket and accelerate towards the ground, lol.
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JNAProductions wrote: I think the "lots of fuel" bit was in reference to slowing a supply drop down so it doesn't be really obvious.
Operationally I don't think it should matter too much if post-burn the payload is undetectable and it can cover thousands of square miles in area.
Assuming of course non-handwavy stealth propulsion systems.
Hecaton wrote: Notice that Grotsnik isn't responding to the people who picked his argument apart and is trying to change the subject. This is bad-faith argumentation and is making the forum shittier.
Almost as if it’s all stuff I’ve previously addressed, only to be told “nuh-uh” in response.
Nor have I ever claimed (barring Marine in charge of an Escort Vessel) it’s likely the Marine could carry this particular day.
But, whatever floats your boat. It’s nice here in your head, and the rent is cheap
Hecaton wrote: Notice that Grotsnik isn't responding to the people who picked his argument apart and is trying to change the subject. This is bad-faith argumentation and is making the forum shittier.
Almost as if it’s all stuff I’ve previously addressed, only to be told “nuh-uh” in response.
If you think the substance is just "nuh-uh" then you're not reading it right.
I bring up trans-human dread. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I explain Marine physiology and the advantages it brings. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I’m told only to consider the rules. Then to only consider non-Codex background and round and round and round we go. Anything “advantage Astartes” is labelled “Bolter porn” and dismissed rather than actually engaged upon.
I speculate the Marine, based on canonical examples of them having their own Vox Channels, but being able to access Guard Vox Channels, could do some pretty interesting psy-Ops. I’m told “nuh-uh”.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I bring up trans-human dread. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I explain Marine physiology and the advantages it brings. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I’m told only to consider the rules. Then to only consider non-Codex background and round and round and round we go. Anything “advantage Astartes” is labelled “Bolter porn” and dismissed rather than actually engaged upon.
I speculate the Marine, based on canonical examples of them having their own Vox Channels, but being able to access Guard Vox Channels, could do some pretty interesting psy-Ops. I’m told “nuh-uh”.
Transhuman Dread, from the actually quoted background (the excerpts provided earlier were real handy) just... Doesn't seem to have much of an impact. Like, at all. Now, given, those are some veteran as heck Guardsmen, but there's a reason that training exists-it's so when you see something scary, you don't freeze-you shoot. Marine physiology has lots of advantages, no one has disputed that. But 9,999 extra bodies is an advantage as well.
As someone who's brought up the rules, I've never said "Consider the rules and NOTHING ELSE," I've said "The rules show that a couple of squads can reliably take down a Marine, but the tabletop isn't 1-to-1 reflective of the fluff. But unless it's off by a factor of around 1,000... The Guard win."
A Marine in single combat versus a Guardsman (assuming typical representatives on both sides) is almost always gonna go in the Marine's favor. Melee combat especially, but shooting will still favor the Marine by a vast margin. But this isn't a thread about single combat-it's about 10,000 to one.
Edit: And you've completely ignored that, should a Marine be messing with the Guard Vox, they can be tracked.
Hecaton wrote: Notice that Grotsnik isn't responding to the people who picked his argument apart and is trying to change the subject. This is bad-faith argumentation and is making the forum shittier.
It's ironic that you complain about Grotsnik doing that, buddy.
It's funny watching you complain about the stuff you do to other users.
I only mention this because, yanno, folks in glass houses maybe shouldn't be throwing stones.
@ Mad Doc: lets say it doesn't really feel nice when you mention something, others bring (in my opinion at least) valid counterarguments, often with sources or citations and you call that "nuh-uh". I respect that it feels that way for you, but... let's say it looks a lot different standing over here.
But as you highlight again that you are interested in a serious discussion without handwaving away arguments or ignoring them. As you underlined the near invulnerability of Powerarmor + SM physique against lasgun fire: what is your stance/argument regarding my point further up, that their ammunition, grenades and at least large parts of their weapon are not armored in Ceramide? If a Space Marine is peppered with Lasbolts again and again, wouldn't it be just a question of time until one of his (Krak) grenades blows up?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I bring up trans-human dread. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I explain Marine physiology and the advantages it brings. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I’m told only to consider the rules. Then to only consider non-Codex background and round and round and round we go. Anything “advantage Astartes” is labelled “Bolter porn” and dismissed rather than actually engaged upon.
I speculate the Marine, based on canonical examples of them having their own Vox Channels, but being able to access Guard Vox Channels, could do some pretty interesting psy-Ops. I’m told “nuh-uh”.
Transhuman Dread, from the actually quoted background (the excerpts provided earlier were real handy) just... Doesn't seem to have much of an impact. Like, at all. Now, given, those are some veteran as heck Guardsmen, but there's a reason that training exists-it's so when you see something scary, you don't freeze-you shoot.
Marine physiology has lots of advantages, no one has disputed that. But 9,999 extra bodies is an advantage as well.
As someone who's brought up the rules, I've never said "Consider the rules and NOTHING ELSE," I've said "The rules show that a couple of squads can reliably take down a Marine, but the tabletop isn't 1-to-1 reflective of the fluff. But unless it's off by a factor of around 1,000... The Guard win."
A Marine in single combat versus a Guardsman (assuming typical representatives on both sides) is almost always gonna go in the Marine's favor. Melee combat especially, but shooting will still favor the Marine by a vast margin.
But this isn't a thread about single combat-it's about 10,000 to one.
Edit: And you've completely ignored that, should a Marine be messing with the Guard Vox, they can be tracked.
All about exploring how a Marine might tackle it, the equivalent of “you can eat an elephant if you take small enough bites”.
Transhuman Dread itself isn’t a solution. But it’s an element of the overall difficulty of fighting an Astartes. The sheer level of incredible violence, at the rate an Astartes can dish it out is another.
I feel it’s established beyond doubt the Astartes also has the technological edge. Even if the Guard could tune into his Vox net frequencies, it gains them nothing. Just passively listening in, having used his armour to scan frequencies for chatter, gives the Marine the advantage of knowing their deployment and patrol patterns. When getting stuck in to a Patrol, the Marine can effectively jam that channel, even in only by broadcasting on it. That patrol tackled, he’s plenty of puff and enough turn of speed to make himself scarce before any reinforcements arrive, should he wish to. Patrol by Patrol, platoon by platoon it could be done, albeit with a lot of luck. For instance, should the Marine spot a window to take out the Guard’s supreme command, that’s a significant change to the overall odds. The messes he leaves behind are going to be plentiful and horrifying.
I’ve even suggested ways the Guard could start to adapt, such as switching from Low Gothic to native languages, or just slang, something the Marine may not be familiar with, citing real world examples of such tricks being used to keep messages secure.
But all I get is “nuh-uh” and claims not based in anything canon about the Guard’s overall capabilities, such as their Vox units being advanced enough to do anything the poster wants, so long as it’s better than the Marine can do. Or the odd claim it would be 1 v 10,000 (all of whom have line of sight, line of fire, and range) at the same time. A lack of recognition or comprehension just how utterly, utterly bonkers Astartes are based on canon, and seemingly an insistence they’re just Tall Bois In Thicc Armour. That seeing your squad mates rent limb from limb in front of your eyes at a speed your brain insists shouldn’t be possible is No Big Thing. That all you need to do is jam a Bayonet through an armour seal and that’s the Marine dead. That the simple fact a Marine’s endurance is literally superhuman wouldn’t be a factor in a protracted fight, even just against a single Platoon.
There is plenty of room for actual interesting debate, but it’s all just “nuh-uh” and the dull scrape of goal posts being moved.
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Pyroalchi wrote: @ Mad Doc: lets say it doesn't really feel nice when you mention something, others bring (in my opinion at least) valid counterarguments, often with sources or citations and you call that "nuh-uh". I respect that it feels that way for you, but... let's say it looks a lot different standing over here.
But as you highlight again that you are interested in a serious discussion without handwaving away arguments or ignoring them. As you underlined the near invulnerability of Powerarmor + SM physique against lasgun fire: what is your stance/argument regarding my point further up, that their ammunition, grenades and at least large parts of their weapon are not armored in Ceramide? If a Space Marine is peppered with Lasbolts again and again, wouldn't it be just a question of time until one of his (Krak) grenades blows up?
Potentially. I guess. That would require us knowing how those grenades work, and what the bangy bit is actually made from. Since Rogue Trader, some Grenades have been described as being the size of a coin. It also depends upon the Astartes carrying them, and in a location vulnerable to enemy fire, even if they can be set off by a stray shot based on whatever chemical make up the explosive actually is.
If they’re maglocked or belt mounted on his hip? If that location is more bum ward than forward, the chance of it being hit in the first place is greatly reduced. And given the Astartes can reasonably expect to replenish a stock of grenades from his victims, and knows he’s up against it numbers wise, I think he’d probably use his quite early on in any engagement.
Again we come to the unknowns, such as the overall environment. Heavy as a fully armoured Marine is, they’re plenty strong and agile enough to climb wreckage or trees or ruins. Being the One against the Many, and able to listen in on enemy Vox, he has the advantage of choosing when and where to engage. Taken together, it’s entirely possible for him to find somewhere to hide out of sight, before dropping into the middle of a squad negotiating a choke point, which makes the risk of someone hitting a grenade much less likely. Hell, fighting inside a building, the Marine could even bring the house down with a decent chance of survival, unlike the poor squished Guardsmen.
Hecaton wrote: Notice that Grotsnik isn't responding to the people who picked his argument apart and is trying to change the subject. This is bad-faith argumentation and is making the forum shittier.
Almost as if it’s all stuff I’ve previously addressed, only to be told “nuh-uh” in response.
Nor have I ever claimed (barring Marine in charge of an Escort Vessel) it’s likely the Marine could carry this particular day.
But, whatever floats your boat. It’s nice here in your head, and the rent is cheap
People have extensively shown why you're wrong and working off of an incorrect interpretation of the setting material. It's not "uh-uh" - it's "you're wrong and here's why." Like the excerpts from Abnett's work about regular humans killing Astartes, which you ignored.
@ Mad Doc: to clear this up, because I'm still not sure, if we just misunderstand each other massively:
If I would ask you "What are the odds of the single Marine taking on those 10.000 Guardsmen?" in what rough ballpark would you estimate that? Because I have the feeling a lot of the contradiction is based on at least myself assuming a "90+%" on your side, while it might be vastly different.
Low. Like, really low. Sheer attrition alone, even if it was some Tzeentchian “I shall feed them one by one by one by one” would see to that, even if only 25% of the Guard ever landed a blow.
But given time, strategy and luck, it is doable.
On an inhospitable world, the odds shift, as the Marine can resort to sabotage and stealth to do serious damage. The more inhospitable, the greater that advantage becomes.
But still one of the biggest advantages? The Marine will have almost certainly fought Guard or equivalent before. The Marine will have at the very least a solid understanding of their command structure as part of his decades of training. To the Guard? Space Marines are legends, and given the existence of Chaos, let alone Chaos Marines is suppressed and outright denied? They’re not trained how to tackle such a foe.
. . . A lack of recognition or comprehension just how utterly, utterly bonkers Astartes are based on canon . . .
Canon which has been repeatedly shown to be highly suspect, and oftentimes contradictory. That's the problem.
It's like watching a John Woo movie and thinking that it's real life.
All 40K canon is contradictory though. But on the abilities of an Astartes, it’s pretty consistent.
They’re not lumbering brutes relying on, erm, brute, force. They’re faster, stronger and just better than baseline humans. Their entire design was to be the ultimate shock troop, able to dish out horrific damage and violence, and survive what the enemy can throw at them. They’re like nothing else in the universe. And that’s something folk have seemed intent on glossing over.
Sure, the initial shock won’t last forever. But it doesn’t have to. It just has to last the rest of the Guardsman’s life - which when a Marine is going hand to hand, armed or not, is gonna be pretty short.
Hence why, rules wise, I refer folks to Inquisitor. That really showed the difference between an Astartes and a Human in all aspects. Bigger. Faster. Stronger. Superior skill, vastly superior endurance.
Guardsmen need sleep and rest. An Astartes….doesn’t. Not on the same scale. The Marine can operate at peak efficiency without rest for days at a time. That’s something the Astartes will know, and can exploit. Even if it just constant, ongoing feints with the occasional ‘actually this time I’m gonna do some fancy killing’, that keeps his foe on edge. The more stress you can subject the Guard to, the less meaningful rest they’ll get. The less meaningful rest, the greater the physical and psychological impact on them, and the less combat ready they’ll become, whilst the Marine can stave off the same far longer. And when the Marine does have to rest? Like, properly rest, not the half on half off brain thing? He’s one individual, and the Guard have no reliable way to track his movements in real-time - and when he can run at 20-30mph for days at a time? He can be over the hills and far, far away before they can track him using conventional “big footprint, it go this way” means, giving plenty of time to rest.
So there’s far more to it to just shooters and fisticuffs.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I bring up trans-human dread. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I explain Marine physiology and the advantages it brings. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I’m told only to consider the rules. Then to only consider non-Codex background and round and round and round we go. Anything “advantage Astartes” is labelled “Bolter porn” and dismissed rather than actually engaged upon.
I speculate the Marine, based on canonical examples of them having their own Vox Channels, but being able to access Guard Vox Channels, could do some pretty interesting psy-Ops. I’m told “nuh-uh”.
I think you’ve maybe come across unintentionally a bit stronger in favour of the marine than you perhaps thought? You’ve said in the last few posts you think a marine win is unlikely, but that’s maybe not how it came across in some earlier posts? Probably not helped by certain other individuals in the thread coming across like a marine win is probable, perhaps even certain, which rather got people’s backs up.
Also you do seem to rather downplay the abilities of guardsmen. They’re not SF sure, but they’re not untrained non-combatants either.
10,000 is a lot of guardsmen. Frankly an unreasonable amount of guardsman for even a marine to take on his own, especially if they’re equipped as they would normally be for a force of that size. The marine needs pretty much perfect circumstances, incredible amounts of luck, and fairly poor quality guardsmen to have any hope of a win against those numbers. And even that would likely take an unreasonable amount of time. Probably a better option is the marine sabotaging something critical that’ll explode and kill them for him (like a dam say, or an ordnance dump).
All those things you mention are definitely factors that will allow the marine to take on a frankly terrifying amount of trained soldiers. But none of them are really decisive on their own. Certainly not 10,000 decisive (in my, and others, opinions).
Altruizine wrote: I think "nuh-uh" must just be one of those not-actually-in-use items of English slang he insists on lacing his posts with.
Must translate to something like "proven so wrong I abandon the argument".
On the slang, get yourself a Profanisaurus. Magna Farta is available digitally. War and Piss may also be, but I’ve got Magna Farta. Just because you don’t recognise it, doesn’t stop it being slang (indeed, see my earlier point about how the Guard could counter the Marine eavesdropping if it became apparent he was doing so).
And by “nuh-uh”, try folk discounting transhuman dread by saying “but the don’t cause fear in the game” as a single example. Or claiming Lasguns are all super deadly because that one time in one book one Guardsman took one shot and killed a Marine outright therefore all Lasguns do that 100% of the time every time” false equivalence. To name but two such “nuh-uh”
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I bring up trans-human dread. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I explain Marine physiology and the advantages it brings. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I’m told only to consider the rules. Then to only consider non-Codex background and round and round and round we go. Anything “advantage Astartes” is labelled “Bolter porn” and dismissed rather than actually engaged upon.
I speculate the Marine, based on canonical examples of them having their own Vox Channels, but being able to access Guard Vox Channels, could do some pretty interesting psy-Ops. I’m told “nuh-uh”.
I think you’ve maybe come across unintentionally a bit stronger in favour of the marine than you perhaps thought? You’ve said in the last few posts you think a marine win is unlikely, but that’s maybe not how it came across in some earlier posts? Probably not helped by certain other individuals in the thread coming across like a marine win is probable, perhaps even certain, which rather got people’s backs up.
Also you do seem to rather downplay the abilities of guardsmen. They’re not SF sure, but they’re not untrained non-combatants either.
10,000 is a lot of guardsmen. Frankly an unreasonable amount of guardsman for even a marine to take on his own, especially if they’re equipped as they would normally be for a force of that size. The marine needs pretty much perfect circumstances, incredible amounts of luck, and fairly poor quality guardsmen to have any hope of a win against those numbers. And even that would likely take an unreasonable amount of time. Probably a better option is the marine sabotaging something critical that’ll explode and kill them for him (like a dam say, or an ordnance dump).
All those things you mention are definitely factors that will allow the marine to take on a frankly terrifying amount of trained soldiers. But none of them are really decisive on their own. Certainly not 10,000 decisive (in my, and others, opinions).
Huge part of it is who The Marine is killing. If he can get to the Command fairly early on? Those 10,000 Guard lose central organisation.
And it’s not downplaying the Guard as soldiers, so much as exploiting the overly compartmentalised nature of the Imperial War Machine. Guardsmen are boots on the ground, the overwhelming force brought to bear which, if nothing else, will drown the enemy in a tidal wave of life-goo should they get murdered to death en-masse. Their training reflects that. The Marine is a Swiss Army Killing Machine, with decades if not centuries of experience slaughtering the enemies of Mankind.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: And by “nuh-uh”, try folk discounting transhuman dread by saying “but the don’t cause fear in the game” as a single example. Or claiming Lasguns are all super deadly because that one time in one book one Guardsman took one shot and killed a Marine outright therefore all Lasguns do that 100% of the time every time” false equivalence. To name but two such “nuh-uh”
People gave lots of good reasons why TD isn't to be taken seriously. You ignored them because your fetish for TD is more important than truth i.e. you're willing to bs to support the idea.
Altruizine wrote: I think "nuh-uh" must just be one of those not-actually-in-use items of English slang he insists on lacing his posts with.
Must translate to something like "proven so wrong I abandon the argument".
On the slang, get yourself a Profanisaurus. Magna Farta is available digitally. War and Piss may also be, but I’ve got Magna Farta. Just because you don’t recognise it, doesn’t stop it being slang (indeed, see my earlier point about how the Guard could counter the Marine eavesdropping if it became apparent he was doing so).
And by “nuh-uh”, try folk discounting transhuman dread by saying “but the don’t cause fear in the game” as a single example. Or claiming Lasguns are all super deadly because that one time in one book one Guardsman took one shot and killed a Marine outright therefore all Lasguns do that 100% of the time every time” false equivalence. To name but two such “nuh-uh”
Lasguns don’t need to be super deadly when you’ve got 10,000 of them.
Even if only half the guardsman get to fire, discounting the effects of accumulating damage and assuming all lasguns with a 0.1% chance of each shot taking the marine out, the marine still only has a 0.67% chance of surviving.
10,000 guardsmen is a lot of people.
That’s a lot of opportunities to win. And that’s just lasguns.
In a typical guard force of that size you’d likely have hundreds of weapons that can realistically one-shot the marine (plasma, krak missiles, lascannons, meltaguns); hundreds more with decent odds (autocannons, heavy bolters); and hundreds more that will do significant enough damage to significantly reduce the marines advantages.
Lord Zarkov wrote: I think you’ve maybe come across unintentionally a bit stronger in favour of the marine than you perhaps thought?
It's not unintentional. He's just trying to play the victim after getting dogpiled with accurate information, because he has too much of an ego to admit he's wrong, despite having a poor understanding of the background material.
Let's focus on how he was wrong.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: All 40K canon is contradictory though. But on the abilities of an Astartes, it’s pretty consistent.
No, it's not. Sometimes they can punch through Custodes armor bare-handed, sometimes they get headshotted by a long las.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: They’re not lumbering brutes relying on, erm, brute, force. They’re faster, stronger and just better than baseline humans. Their entire design was to be the ultimate shock troop, able to dish out horrific damage and violence, and survive what the enemy can throw at them. They’re like nothing else in the universe. And that’s something folk have seemed intent on glossing over.
People aren't glossing over it, it's just that the Imperial Guard has the biggest brute force hammer in the setting. Probably. And definitely more than Space Marines, and trivially so with a massive numbers advantage like the scenario in this thread. So no, you're wrong, people in this thread do understand the situation, it's *you* who don't.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Hence why, rules wise, I refer folks to Inquisitor. That really showed the difference between an Astartes and a Human in all aspects. Bigger. Faster. Stronger. Superior skill, vastly superior endurance.
Funny that you refer to an obscure game and hold it up as canon, when every other game in the setting backs the people arguing against you. Guess what, the rules for Inquisitor back up the idea that a single Astartes will die to a squad of Guardsmen too. So you're still wrong.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Guardsmen need sleep and rest. An Astartes….doesn’t. Not on the same scale. The Marine can operate at peak efficiency without rest for days at a time. That’s something the Astartes will know, and can exploit. Even if it just constant, ongoing feints with the occasional ‘actually this time I’m gonna do some fancy killing’, that keeps his foe on edge. The more stress you can subject the Guard to, the less meaningful rest they’ll get. The less meaningful rest, the greater the physical and psychological impact on them, and the less combat ready they’ll become, whilst the Marine can stave off the same far longer. And when the Marine does have to rest? Like, properly rest, not the half on half off brain thing? He’s one individual, and the Guard have no reliable way to track his movements in real-time - and when he can run at 20-30mph for days at a time? He can be over the hills and far, far away before they can track him using conventional “big footprint, it go this way” means, giving plenty of time to rest.
The guardsmen can sleep in shifts, you ninny, just like every other armed force. There's 10,000 of them. Get over yourself.
And no, Astartes cannot run for 20-30 mph for days at a time, unless we're talking about heavily cybernetically modified ones. That's actually a point about units like the Morlocks - but basic Astartes *cannot* do that.
Yes, and it all seems beyond you and your pathetic understanding of the situation.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I bring up trans-human dread. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I explain Marine physiology and the advantages it brings. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I’m told only to consider the rules. Then to only consider non-Codex background and round and round and round we go. Anything “advantage Astartes” is labelled “Bolter porn” and dismissed rather than actually engaged upon.
I speculate the Marine, based on canonical examples of them having their own Vox Channels, but being able to access Guard Vox Channels, could do some pretty interesting psy-Ops. I’m told “nuh-uh”.
You're told that because you're wrong. You're wrong about the fluff, *and* you're wrong about the rules. You have nowhere to retreat to in the argument because your argument is baseless. You *should* feel like people are telling you no, because any reasonable person would reject your arguments, and what's more, you lack the mental acuity ot understand their very basic counterarguments.
And no, Astartes do not have access to all of the Guard's vox channels, and they use encryption.
"Could do some interesting psy ops" is a very small chance compared to "he broadcasts his location when he tries to transmit and gets an earthshaker round dropped on his head." You should acknowledge you were wrong about that.
Altruizine wrote: I think "nuh-uh" must just be one of those not-actually-in-use items of English slang he insists on lacing his posts with.
Must translate to something like "proven so wrong I abandon the argument".
On the slang, get yourself a Profanisaurus. Magna Farta is available digitally. War and Piss may also be, but I’ve got Magna Farta. Just because you don’t recognise it, doesn’t stop it being slang (indeed, see my earlier point about how the Guard could counter the Marine eavesdropping if it became apparent he was doing so).
And by “nuh-uh”, try folk discounting transhuman dread by saying “but the don’t cause fear in the game” as a single example. Or claiming Lasguns are all super deadly because that one time in one book one Guardsman took one shot and killed a Marine outright therefore all Lasguns do that 100% of the time every time” false equivalence. To name but two such “nuh-uh”
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I bring up trans-human dread. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I explain Marine physiology and the advantages it brings. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I’m told only to consider the rules. Then to only consider non-Codex background and round and round and round we go. Anything “advantage Astartes” is labelled “Bolter porn” and dismissed rather than actually engaged upon.
I speculate the Marine, based on canonical examples of them having their own Vox Channels, but being able to access Guard Vox Channels, could do some pretty interesting psy-Ops. I’m told “nuh-uh”.
I think you’ve maybe come across unintentionally a bit stronger in favour of the marine than you perhaps thought? You’ve said in the last few posts you think a marine win is unlikely, but that’s maybe not how it came across in some earlier posts? Probably not helped by certain other individuals in the thread coming across like a marine win is probable, perhaps even certain, which rather got people’s backs up.
Also you do seem to rather downplay the abilities of guardsmen. They’re not SF sure, but they’re not untrained non-combatants either.
10,000 is a lot of guardsmen. Frankly an unreasonable amount of guardsman for even a marine to take on his own, especially if they’re equipped as they would normally be for a force of that size. The marine needs pretty much perfect circumstances, incredible amounts of luck, and fairly poor quality guardsmen to have any hope of a win against those numbers. And even that would likely take an unreasonable amount of time. Probably a better option is the marine sabotaging something critical that’ll explode and kill them for him (like a dam say, or an ordnance dump).
All those things you mention are definitely factors that will allow the marine to take on a frankly terrifying amount of trained soldiers. But none of them are really decisive on their own. Certainly not 10,000 decisive (in my, and others, opinions).
Huge part of it is who The Marine is killing. If he can get to the Command fairly early on? Those 10,000 Guard lose central organisation.
And it’s not downplaying the Guard as soldiers, so much as exploiting the overly compartmentalised nature of the Imperial War Machine. Guardsmen are boots on the ground, the overwhelming force brought to bear which, if nothing else, will drown the enemy in a tidal wave of life-goo should they get murdered to death en-masse. Their training reflects that. The Marine is a Swiss Army Killing Machine, with decades if not centuries of experience slaughtering the enemies of Mankind.
Marines going for the command is of course their SOPs, and why at a theatre level a marine *force* is worth multiple orders of ten times their number of human troops. Because taking out central command at an operational level then allows the marines (and the rest of the Imperial war machine they frequently operate alongside) to use that window of opportunity to isolate and neutralise sub-formations of the enemy before they can reorganise. Or use that window to take out other critical targets. That’s just standard warfare but magnified because marines are awesome and they’re particularly good at that.
Not to mention shock and awe into the political leadership (another marine speciality) cause the surviving leadership to rapidly surrender. Especially if only the very top level actually want to fight).
But that’s at a theatre level and doesn’t really apply to our 1 marine vs 10,000 guardsmen scenario, especially if we’re talking about actually killing all 10,000.
Guardsmen have leadership at every level of the chain (assuming a single force not 10,000 random guardsmen). Each squad has a commander, every 2-6 squads make a platoon with another commander, every 2-6 platoons another, etc.
And field promotions when the commanders at various levels die are common as pretty much any guard BL book shows. Take out the command and after some hours they’ll reorganise themselves into a new hierarchy.
Now that’s a pretty significant window for an actual strike force of marines to do devastating amounts of damage, and in the right part of the theatre enough to win you the war (which is what marines are for).
But one single marine is just not going to kill a meaningful enough proportion of 10,000 people in the same timeframe to make much of a dent before they sort themselves out. Particularly as he’d have killed a much smaller proportion of the overall command structure.
And by “nuh-uh”, try folk discounting transhuman dread by saying “but the don’t cause fear in the game” as a single example.
A single example of what, you being wrong again?
The continuing transhuman dread fixation is wild. Because:
- you still haven't bothered to try to find an excerpt of it actually doing anything anywhere in a combat environment
- you're still solely relying on that one unsubstantiated passage from Aximand (from a fiction anthology I don't think you've read)
- it comes from a fiction anthology, so doesn't even fulfill your own (false) metric of codex >>> Black Library
- in addition to it seemingly not being demonstrated in any fiction, it's also not a strong enough effect to appear in any rules
Do you see why everyone thinks you're a weirdo? Taking all of the above together, do you see why it's really weird to watch someone seize on a single nugget of obscure lore that appears to turn them on, and refuse to let it go? Like, we shouldn't even be talking about TD at all this far into the conversation. If you were a rational person you would have, at some point, confronted with all of the above, given up weakly gesturing to TD as if it had any bearing on what we've been discussing. The fact that you can't let go of something so comprehensively-proven to be irrelevant to the discussion makes you a suspicious actor.
40K wiki thing mentions speeds of 12,000kph on descent, fast enough to evade “all but the most advanced AA system”.
Oh, GW...you're so bad at numbers.
"All but the most advanced AA systems" my rear end...ain't nothing is keeping up with that. 12,000 kph is 200 km/s. That means said drop pod would transverse the nominal extent of Earth's atmosphere in half a second. As another reference, from what I've been able to find, a spacecraft needs to change its speed by ~12.2 km/s to leave Earth orbit and ~30.3 km/s to leave the sun's orbit. For what it's worth, the droppod would not escape the orbit of the Milky Way (wikipedia says that takes ~500 km/s from location of the solar system). I'm reminded of the birth rate vs recruitment math that was being done for the Catachan guard tithe in another thread
(and in case your wondering, yes I did look up delta-v maps of the solar system to figure this out...here's the one I used if you're interested: http://srjskam.blogspot.com/2017/09/delta-v-map-of-solar-system.html ; you add up the values, which are in km/s, between the Earth and the destination...makes me want to boot kerbal space program up and crash some rockets)
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: And by “nuh-uh”, try folk discounting transhuman dread by saying “but the don’t cause fear in the game” as a single example. Or claiming Lasguns are all super deadly because that one time in one book one Guardsman took one shot and killed a Marine outright therefore all Lasguns do that 100% of the time every time” false equivalence. To name but two such “nuh-uh”
So a lasgun killing a marine in one shot is "just that one time" but "transhuman dread" is somehow an essential part of the lore despite being an equally rare thing? And despite GW's own movie clearly showing marines moving at normal human speeds?
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Lord Zarkov wrote: In a typical guard force of that size you’d likely have hundreds of weapons that can realistically one-shot the marine (plasma, krak missiles, lascannons, meltaguns); hundreds more with decent odds (autocannons, heavy bolters); and hundreds more that will do significant enough damage to significantly reduce the marines advantages.
Exactly. You can say "BUT TRANSHUMAN DREAD" all you like, but all it takes is one guardsman getting a lock with a krak missile from a mile away and the marine is dead.
Isn't it more of a case that a marine can match a human at full sprint in heavy armor for a far, far longer time than what even an athlete could maintain?
If this is a pitched battle of marine vs guard I'd imagine the guard wouldn't struggle to gather the courage to point and shoot at the guy running across the field. When he gets within arm's reach, yeah I can see some of the guard wanting to make some distance.
. . . A lack of recognition or comprehension just how utterly, utterly bonkers Astartes are based on canon . . .
Canon which has been repeatedly shown to be highly suspect, and oftentimes contradictory. That's the problem.
It's like watching a John Woo movie and thinking that it's real life.
All 40K canon is contradictory though. But on the abilities of an Astartes, it’s pretty consistent.
They’re not lumbering brutes relying on, erm, brute, force. They’re faster, stronger and just better than baseline humans. Their entire design was to be the ultimate shock troop, able to dish out horrific damage and violence, and survive what the enemy can throw at them. They’re like nothing else in the universe. And that’s something folk have seemed intent on glossing over.
But you seem to be glossing over the fact that there are many, MANY threats in the universe that are even bigger, stronger, faster, and more horrific than a Marine. . . And Guardsmen successfully fight them all the time.
All the faffery about "horrific violence" falls flat in the face of Tyranids, Daemons, Necrons that wear skin, Dark Eldar in general, etc.
And as also mentioned, Marine speed is largely operational. A marine squad can march fast and redeploy 'fresh' or days, yes. They're not particularly hard to shoot though, because they're built for endurance, not speed.
You're absolutely right! I only converted to km/minute
3.33 km/s is much less absurd (or at least it's in the range where I don't imediately call BS on GW for throwing it out there). Ah well...at least I had fun with the delta-v tables
Exactly. You can say "BUT TRANSHUMAN DREAD" all you like, but all it takes is one guardsman getting a lock with a krak missile from a mile away and the marine is dead.
All of which I’ve acknowledged, and at no point have I claimed “Guard cannot kill a Marine”. Please stop addressing claims I’ve never made.
Now, let’s address some of the odder criticisms.
Much as you guys don’t like it, Transhuman Dread remains part of the lore. You not liking it doesn’t change that.
Guardsmen do fight numerous threats to The Imperium, absolutely they do. They die in droves, and don’t always win. My entire exploration here is exactly how a Marine might tackle the task.
Marines built for endurance not speed? Factually incorrect. The speed varies between authors, from as low as 21kph to 80kph at a flat sprint. And they can maintain that far, far longer than a baseline human.
“Oh they’d just call in an artillery barrage”. On….what coordinates? How exactly are the Guard finding the Marine’s location unless he’s launching an attack? You have to conceded artillery takes time to reorient direction and set elevation etc. With the Marine’s speed, he’s a decent window of withdrawal, and at a speed the Guard cannot match on foot.
Yes single Lasguns or Krak grenades can kill a Marine. Please, show me where I’ve ever disputed that? Then show me in the background where that’s a regular occurrence. Because I’ll point to the indisputable fact that Marine’s haven’t become a tactical irrelevance as proof positive such happenings are exceptionally rare.
Sleep in shifts? Yes they absolutely can. But what happens when your sleep in interrupted over a sustained period? It’s not as bad as going without sleep or rest completely, sure. But it still wears you down, military training or not. By comparison, the quoted record for continuous combat by Astartes is 328 hours. Or just shy of 14 days. Here, would the Marine need to push that? Depends on the overall environment being fought in. Urban or Arboreal is going to be a complete sod to check and clear at the best of times, so looking for the Marine is needle in a haystack. Sure if he’s discovered when sleeping it could go really bad. But again, they can get to places barely accessible due baseline humans.
Still no addressing the massive mismatch in intelligence either. The Marine, through their training and indeed purpose, will have an understanding of the Guard’s Command Structure, which barring variances in rank naming is pretty set and overall tactics. The Guard have nothing like that on the near-mythical Astartes (remember, the existence of Chaos is commonly denied, the existence of CSM even more so). Oh they’ll have heard of them in sermons and legends. But that’s about it.
These are all factors which grant advantages to the Marine, making a victory, however unlikely, possible. You not liking them, or simply writing them off as “Bolter porn” doesn’t change their status as established, canonical facts.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Much as you guys don’t like it, Transhuman Dread remains part of the lore. You not liking it doesn’t change that.
Then so is marines dying to getting stabbed with a pointy stick.
What of Sar Fareth?’
‘Dead.’
‘What?’
‘Killed ten months ago, shortly after you left. Slain by a human, of all things. An unlucky thrust with a wooden spear.’ Argel Tal tapped two fingertips against his neck. ‘Tore out most of his throat, laid it bare to the bone. I’ve never seen anything like it. Blood of the gods, I’d have laughed if it hadn’t been so pathetically tragic. He bled out before the Apothecaries could reach him, still trying to shout the whole time.’
So sure, the guardsmen are scared. All it takes is one of them pulling the pin on a frag grenade, which is far more of a threat than a pointy stick, before dying and the marine is dead.
Marines built for endurance not speed? Factually incorrect. The speed varies between authors, from as low as 21kph to 80kph at a flat sprint. And they can maintain that far, far longer than a baseline human.
That's interesting, because when GW had the opportunity to show us in movie form what space marines look like this is what we got:
Looks like they're no faster than normal humans.
On….what coordinates?
"WE'RE OVERRUN ALL GUNS FIRE ON MY POSITION!"
This is artillery we're talking about, not a sniper shot. If a single guardsman survives long enough to report their death artillery can wipe the entire grid square off the map. And calling in that final martyrdom barrage is such a common thing that guard even have a tabletop stratagem for it.
Because I’ll point to the indisputable fact that Marine’s haven’t become a tactical irrelevance as proof positive such happenings are exceptionally rare.
It's hardly indisputable. Marines aren't relevant. They're too few in number to matter on a strategic scale and most of their supposed use cases can be done better by artillery and orbital bombardment. If you know the position of the enemy HQ accurately enough to send a marine to kill them you know it accurately enough to glass the entire area from orbit with a lance strike or call in a Basilisk barrage to kill everything in the entire grid square. The main thing marines are good for is propaganda, providing the hope that if you're faithful and obedient enough and keep fighting as long as possible marines might save you. And in that context it's ok of a marine dies to a pointy stick sometimes, you just don't show that on the propaganda broadcast.
Still no addressing the massive mismatch in intelligence either.
Because it isn't relevant. The guardsmen aren't trying to find the best way to use a marine effectively in the context of the larger strategic situation, they're firing in self defense against a target in their immediate area. And it only takes one hit from an anti-marine weapon or even a lucky stab from a pointy stick to kill the marine. You don't need a ton of research and an elaborate spy network to see a nearby squad under attack and fire a krak missile at the thing killing them.
You're absolutely right! I only converted to km/minute
3.33 km/s is much less absurd (or at least it's in the range where I don't imediately call BS on GW for throwing it out there). Ah well...at least I had fun with the delta-v tables
For what it's worth, 12.000 km/h is the upper end of what current conventional hypersonic missiles can achieve. Extremely hard to counter, to the point that they are touted as un-interceptable by conventional means, but there are two things to consider.
1. Lasers: current research in countermeasures is pretty focused - npi - on lasers as a potential counter to hypervelocity ammunition, because a laser hits with the speed of light, i.e. instantaneous for all practical considerations. That solves a bunch of problems and opens up new ones: namely that you need a laser source that can output enough energy fast enough to transfer sufficient power for a kill in short enough time, and that you need systems that allow to keep the missile in focus for that amount of time. Both are solved or close to solved right now in principle, with the next problem being that you need to pack all that in a system that can remain operational under field conditions. In 40k, these problems are solved for at least some factions.
2. Saturation fire: If you can dish out enough shots, you don't need a clean killshot to destroy a pod. At the given speed, even superficial damage to the heat shields or the guidance system of a pod should lead to catastrophic failure almost instantly, as the pod would either reach unsurvivable temperatures or be ripped apart by the pressure. So if you could fling enough lead and shrapnel in the right general direction you could be pretty sure to bag the lot of them.
Intelligence absolutely matters. Specifically Military Intelligence.
The Marine has options the Guard don’t. As previously mentioned, being able to eavesdrop on their Vox Chatter is one. Being able to broadcast on Guard frequencies (having used his armour’s gubbins to scan said frequencies) also means he can keep the channel open, or broadcast on it himself.
That alone can prevent calls for aid/bombardment being sent in the first place. And he can always just nix the Vox Operator(s) as priority targets. Or even just take out the senior officer, preventing such extremis orders, or at least delaying them.
Hell, if you want to get super nasty? Tap in to their Vox. Hit record. Keep recording throughout the engagement. Soon as that order is requested, Get Out Of Dodge as quick as you can.
Provided you survive that, you’ve just got yourself a recording of a rather useful order - and abandoned the target to their own barrage.
If it’s an Infiltrator, with their more sophisticated comms gubbins? There’s even the possibility of reusing that order to use the Guard’s own artillery against it.
Even if it just “listen and leg it” when it comes to that order? The barrage isn’t instantaneous. The guns still need to be brought to bear along the right heading and elevation. Even if that’s the work of seconds or a minute or so? That’s still time for the Marine to break off, seek cover etc. So again the actual environment in play matters to the overall odds.
Again we see “one Marine was killed with a stick” as if that’s a common occurence, and something therefore the Guard can rely on. For clarity again, because folk just don’t seem to want to acknowledge it, at no point have I claimed Guard cannot kill Marines, or that Marines can’t fall to unlikely means. My issue is “one time” being conflated with “every time”
There are ways and means and methods and tricks the Marine can tilt the odds more in his favour. They’re still long odds, but better odds all the same.
To return to the Infiltrator? Decent chance of not only striking directly at Regimental Command, but also sabotaging food, ammo, water and artillery rounds. Get the Earthshaker ammo cooking off, and that’s gonna be a big old problem for the Guard right there.
You're absolutely right! I only converted to km/minute
3.33 km/s is much less absurd (or at least it's in the range where I don't imediately call BS on GW for throwing it out there). Ah well...at least I had fun with the delta-v tables
For what it's worth, 12.000 km/h is the upper end of what current conventional hypersonic missiles can achieve. Extremely hard to counter, to the point that they are touted as un-interceptable by conventional means, but there are two things to consider.
1. Lasers: current research in countermeasures is pretty focused - npi - on lasers as a potential counter to hypervelocity ammunition, because a laser hits with the speed of light, i.e. instantaneous for all practical considerations. That solves a bunch of problems and opens up new ones: namely that you need a laser source that can output enough energy fast enough to transfer sufficient power for a kill in short enough time, and that you need systems that allow to keep the missile in focus for that amount of time. Both are solved or close to solved right now in principle, with the next problem being that you need to pack all that in a system that can remain operational under field conditions. In 40k, these problems are solved for at least some factions.
2. Saturation fire: If you can dish out enough shots, you don't need a clean killshot to destroy a pod. At the given speed, even superficial damage to the heat shields or the guidance system of a pod should lead to catastrophic failure almost instantly, as the pod would either reach unsurvivable temperatures or be ripped apart by the pressure. So if you could fling enough lead and shrapnel in the right general direction you could be pretty sure to bag the lot of them.
Still the issue of range, and warning time.
The speed of a Drop Pod is intended to give no warning. Poop them out the ship, ram them through the atmosphere, get landed and get killing as quickly as possible. And as speculated, for a Supply Pod, there’s little to no need to send it anywhere near enemy positions, because the Marine can retrieve it at relative leisure. Yes the Guard could be widespread across an area….but that’s only going to help the Marine with the “small enough bites” potential solution.
As it was stated before that instances of transhuman dread in the source material incredibly rare, usually in character and not in combat:
Could you, Mad Doc list a handful of sources where that was relevant?
In the opposite site we already have the Cain Novels, some Ghost Novels, that except with the points stick. And I assume more could be found.
Nightbringer, where a Marine passing by in a carriage stops a riot dead in its tracks. Doesn’t step out or get involved. Just being driven past silences the mob.
Traitors Hand. Yes Cain is able to briefly engage a rampaging Berzerker, but freely admits had his foes first move been different (I can’t recall if it was overhead or a swipe he went for) then Cain would’ve been dead - and it had just slaughtered another Guard squad. Cain himself is expressly noted as a truly exceptional duellist. Even he can’t fight it to a stand still, just provides enough resistance for Jurgen to turn his Meltagun on it once Cain breaks free. Here’s the quote.
The Traitors Hand, Chapter 13 wrote: “Maybe it was that which took our opponent off-guard for a moment, mistaking it for the chant of the followers of his own blasphemous god, because he turned his head slowly to look at us, drawing his attention reluctantly from the corpses of second squad which lay all around him. Only a few survivors still stirred, trying feebly to raise weapons or crawl to safety.
‘Emperor on Earth!’ I said, my bowels spasming. The man, if man he still was, was a giant, towering over us all. My months as the Guard liaison to the Reclaimers had left me familiar with the superhuman stature of the Astartes and with a healthy respect for the strength and durability of the armour they wore, but this was no paladin of the Emperor’s will; quite the opposite. His armour was blood red and black, like the uniforms of the cultists still dying in droves around us, and chased with vile designs in burnished orichalcum. He carried a bolt pistol holstered at his belt, but apparently distained to use it. His hands, encased in massive gauntlets, gripped a curious weapon, like a battleaxe, but surrounded with whirling metal teeth like my own.
“You swear by the corpse god?’ The thing’s voice was gutteral, from a throat constricted with rage, and so deeply resonant that I felt it reverberate through my very bones. ‘Your skull will grace the throne of the true power!’
‘Big red thing, five rounds rapid fire!’ Dyzun ordered, remarkably calmly under the circumstances, and the troopers snapped out of their astonishment to comply. But the twisted parody of a Marine was fast, at least as agile as one of the true heroes he aped, and leapt aside, avoiding most of it. The few las bolts which struck his armour scored it, adding to the pockmarks already inflicted by the luckless second squad, and I felt vindictive laughter resonating through my bones.”
Right there, Commissar Cain, who’d served alongside Astartes by this point, describes his bowels spasming. Transhuman Dread by any other name. Saved solely by his exceptional talent as a duellist.
The unnaturalness of a Marine in motion isn’t itself victory. But it’s still something the Guard need to overcome, ideally before the Marine is getting stuck in.
Guard are not superhuman. Guard are not immune to psychology or being scared. Indeed morale is such a weak point the Commissariat exists to prevent routs, via means of summary execution.
Space Marines, in combat, are quite unlike anything you or I have ever seen. Speed, skill, strength, all far in excess of what a human is, or could be capable of. And given their extreme rarity, whist Guard might’ve heard of Marines? Most will never have seen one, let alone fought one.
Right there, Commissar Cain, who’d served alongside Astartes by this point, describes his bowels spasming.
I like to imagine that there's a standing order on new pants for Cain and the Schola where he retired is still receiving shipments well after his death to the point that they've opened a souvenir shop selling Pants of the Liberator
I really love the over the top cliff hangers that Sandy Mitchell imbues Cain the Narrator's writing.
So it’s more transhuman concern rather than dread.
Point is there are no sources of transhuman dread having the effect you like so much, and plenty where it doesn’t appear at all. No one is saying Marie s aren’t scary but they aren’t scary enough to incapacitate a trained soldier. There’s no evidence to say there is. Sorry that it’s your fave bit of lore but it’s just not a feature of the rules or the background. And thus not really relevant to this discussion.
And that’s not nu uh ing anything, that’s a rational critical analysis of the information present.
Until Dyzun ordered 5 rounds rapid? The Guard were stunned simply by his appearance. And Dyzun was only able to issue that order after Cain parried.
As I’ve said. It doesn’t need to be a lasting effect. But when you’ve a tonne of post-human killing machine not bothering to grandstand but instead intent on going through you like a dose of salts? That hesitation counts, and counts for a lot, because it’s that hesitation that gets you killed, makes the Marine’s job a lot easier than fighting someone at least trying to fight back, and let’s them start making a horrific mess for your mates to see.
Note that even when the Guard do fire, again in support of the sheer unnaturalness and cause of Transhuman Dread, the Marine leaps aside, avoiding most of the incoming fire, with the few hits merely scoring his plate.
Much later on, Cain is able to dispatch an already heavily wounded Berseker, yes. But keep in mind what I’ve said about the scenario we’re discussing, and their not necessarily being a rush. The Berserkers here were part of a teleport strike intended to end a Slaaneshi ritual already underway. Hence they showed no restraint, because time didn’t allow a more subtle approach (note I’m not bringing the peculiarities of Bersekers here, as those are peculiarities). That lead to them charging prepared positions in an enclosed facility, because their mission required it. Add more time, or remove all time constraints entirely? You’ll get a different result, which doesn’t necessarily include the Marine getting perished.
‘Big red thing, five rounds rapid fire!’ Dyzun ordered, remarkably calmly under the circumstances, and the troopers snapped out of their astonishment to comply.
Amazing.
MDG: Do you or do you not understand that a human compelled to fight for their life against other humans could also experience their "bowels spasming?" Do you or do you not understand that basically every combat engagement is an experience of terror? What we are asking you to do is to illustrate how "transhuman dread" is a significant exception from that baseline experience. If it is not a significant exception, it has no bearing on the conversation. Every person in this thread would acknowledge that fighting a Marine would be scarier than fighting another human -- what we dispute is that the degree of difference is irrelevant, especially in a case of 1 vs. 10,000, and therefore bears no serious mention or analysis in the case we have been given to discuss.
These are notably Veteran Troopers, a composite Regiment comprised of those surviving a Tyranid Invasion.
They’ve faced rebels, Orks and Nids by this point. Yet soon as a single Astartes is attacking? One squad rapidly slaughtered, the others, Veterans every Man Jack Of Them, described as being astonished - only breaking when their CO issues an order.
Had the Berzerker, for narrative reasons, not stood and gloated? They’d had remained astonished when the fighting proper began.
It’s…..it’s as if you’re purposefully, for reasons best known to yourself, just ignoring all context, isn’t it?
But they do fight eventually.
I might misremember, but when faced with Necrons for the first time in one of the novels (I think it was at the end of "Caves of ice"), a squad of stormtroopers who are described as specifically hardy and unemotional in face of losses (their unit already has lost some friends) meet one (or several?) flayed one and right there reacts in the way you describe for transhuman dread. They are unable to act because they are paralysed by fear.
In none of the Cain Novels at least he describes that level of fear by baseline Troopers when facing (C)SM.
Pyroalchi wrote: But they do fight eventually.
I might misremember, but when faced with Necrons for the first time in one of the novels (I think it was at the end of "Caves of ice"), a squad of stormtroopers who are described as specifically hardy and unemotional in face of losses (their unit already has lost some friends) meet one (or several?) flayed one and right there reacts in the way you describe for transhuman dread. They are unable to act because they are paralysed by fear.
In none of the Cain Novels at least he describes that level of fear by baseline Troopers when facing (C)SM.
Storm Troopers, but it was specifically the now defunct Pariahs eliciting that response.
But even momentary stupefaction in combat is a death sentence, with again, the horrifying speed and violence of a Marine’s assault damaging morale further still.
lol, it gets worse: MDG strategically concludes his quotation before Cain begins taunting the Marine, and getting the better of it with a deliberate tactical gambit.
Thank you for the reference/source, it's actually a great piece of evidence against the potency of transhuman dread. Your poor reading comprehension has kept you from understanding it, but in future conversations with reasonable people I'll make sure to gesture to this!
What we observe in this encounter is:
- a Marine's size/ferocity/reputation/etc. causes a moment of paralysis
- the moment of paralysis is immediately overcome by training
- the paralyzed party is able to recover so quickly that they envision a strategy to best the Marine, and the party is able to successfully enact it
- bonus: the Marine moves slowly enough to be repeatedly parried by a baseline human
Cain is far from baseline, or are we purposefully ignoring his long established status as an [i]excellent[/i/ duellist. One who, now I come to think of it, had sparred with an Astartes prior to this? That Cain acknowledges the best he could do was hold it for a few seconds, and had the Marine opened with a different attack, he’d have been dead?
Or that the unit is subject to THD, with only the Marine’s gloating giving the time for the CO to snap out of it?
Storm Troopers, but it was specifically the now defunct Pariahs eliciting that response.
But even momentary stupefaction in combat is a death sentence, with again, the horrifying speed and violence of a Marine’s assault damaging morale further still.
Pour one out for the pariahs...
While I don't have the hang up with transhuman dread that everyone else seems to and I would imagine it could be a death sentence for a squad of guardsmen, is it enough to be a death sentence for even 5 squads of guardsmen? If not, I feel like it's going to be of limited use outside of very specific circumstances (relatively narrow corridors perhaps)
All about the force multiplier, and again depends entirely upon deployment and where the combat is taking place.
Watching a Marine handily, rapidly and importantly, messily dispatching your mates is going to affect your morale. Indeed in the book I’ve quoted here, as Cain goes to investigate leading reinforcements, troops fleeing the Marine come past him.
So even if the initial shock subsides? There’s still the matter of the Marine having a one-sided fight, coming for you next. As shown, they’re more than capable of avoiding fire whilst closing the range. That’s another knock to your morale, as there seems to be no stopping him, as even those (from the excerpt) few hits do…..nothing to slow him.
How many of your mates meeting rapid hyper-violent deaths can you stomach before the fight it knocked out of you?
It gets worse in a dense environment, as all you might hear (as is the case in the novel I quoted) is horrific deaths and screams over the Vox, so each squad gets their own first Eyes On moment, where the impact can rinse and repeat. More so if the Marine is launching an ambush, be that dropping from a great height, bursting through a wall or what have you.
Nowhere in the quote does it indicate that the CO (who is actually an NCO, a sergeant specifically) was paralysed by fear or gaking themself. Dyzun was described as being calm.
Also, Cain's reaction is not transhuman dread, but just bog standard fear because he knows what the opponent is capable of. His reaction there is basically the same reaction he has with seeing any enemy, because Cain's number one goal in every situation is to continue existing as Cain. Remember, this is a commissar who took a job with an artillery company to try and avoid combat and his first "heroic action" was running away from the enemy which just so happened to lure them into a killzone.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Cain is far from baseline, or are we purposefully ignoring his long established status as an [i]excellent[/i/ duellist.
I don't know, I haven't read the series; I simply had a bundle of ebooks sitting on my computer for future reading, and decided to check your work because you're such a dishonest windbag.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: One who, now I come to think of it, had sparred with an Astartes prior to this? That Cain acknowledges the best he could do was hold it for a few seconds, and had the Marine opened with a different attack, he’d have been dead?
And? What does that prove, that a human cannot 1-v-1 a Marine? Cool, no one said they could.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Or that the unit is subject to THD, with only the Marine’s gloating giving the time for the CO to snap out of it?
There is no gloating in that excerpt, nor any "time given." Read the words. All of Cain's reactions and decisions happen in seconds. This is not a Bond scenario where an arrogant villain pauses for monologue and gives the hero a planning window.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Surprisingly calm is the wording. Still doesn’t issue the order straight away.
Cain has faced many foes. I don’t recall him describing any other leaving him “paralysed with fear”.
The berzerker says how many words before the order is given? There is no description of any actual real delay in the excerpt. In fact, Dyzun reacts faster than Cain does.
So is Cain particularly adept and has faced countless enemies and even he was affected? But yet the IG sergeant kept their head more than him?
Re-reading it, Dyzun was already in position, as it was his aid Cain was going to.
Either way, his squad remained stupefied at the mere sight of the Marine. Had it got stuck in? Too late to give the order to fire. And remember, the taking time to trash talk is purely narrative, rather than reflective of a given tactic or strategy.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Surprisingly calm is the wording. Still doesn’t issue the order straight away.
Cain has faced many foes. I don’t recall him describing any other leaving him “paralysed with fear”.
Every single time he’s encountered Necrons.
Cain is justifiably worried when he has to fight a marine, but he practically wets himself at the mere mention of a Necron. And not just the Pariahs in Caves of Ice, but in the multiple other times they show up in his novels.
In that excerpt from Traitors hand the guard are pretty scared, but the Sgt gives the order to engage on reflex, the rest of the fire and in the end less than 30 guardsmen kill the marine.
No one is disputing that a marine will mince a guardsman 1-vs-1 unless they’re exceptionally lucky and skilful.
I don’t think anyone is really disputing that a marine will usually mince a squad or even a few squads at once of guardsmen.
But 10,000 guardsmen is a lot of squads so the odds of a given squad winning doesn’t have to be all that high for it to be nigh impossible for the marine to win. And have people have showed there’s loads of examples in the lore where guardsmen have won. These are treated as rare events yes, but 10,000 guardsmen is plenty of opportunity for a rare event to occur.
If a squad of 10 guardsmen has even a 1% chance of killing a marine, then the chance of the marine surviving all 1,000 squads in our scenario is 4.3x10^-5 - that’s 0.0043%. Which is frankly just not credible.
If the chance of a kill is higher then it becomes even worse for the marine. E.g. if a given squad of guardsmen has as much as a 1 in 10 chance then the marine has a 1.7x10^-46 chance of survival. Which might as well be impossible.
Hence it all depends upon territory, deployment, the specific type of Marine, even the Chapter and specific regiment in question.
Traitors Hand? It’s purely because Cain is able to duel the Marine that Jurgen gets a shot off - not to mention Cain’s presence acting as a morale boost to his troops (his reputation is well founded, however fraudulent he considers it to be). Anyone trying to hold it up as A Typical Example Of How It Would Go is just outright wrong.
Cain is justifiably worried when he has to fight a marine, but he practically wets himself at the mere mention of a Necron. And not just the Pariahs in Caves of Ice, but in the multiple other times they show up in his novels.
I just wanted to write the same. There are lots of instances where even the possibility that there MIGHT be necrons somewhere triggers fear or near panic in Cain. His reaction towards Orks, Nyds, Traitors etc. is much more leveled. The only thing approaching that level of fear is the Slanesh Deamon (Emeli? if I recall correctly). And even there, knowing that Jurgen is a big trump card against demons he acts cooler than with the necrons.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Hence it all depends upon territory, deployment, the specific type of Marine, even the Chapter and specific regiment in question.
Traitors Hand? It’s purely because Cain is able to duel the Marine that Jurgen gets a shot off - not to mention Cain’s presence acting as a morale boost to his troops (his reputation is well founded, however fraudulent he considers it to be). Anyone trying to hold it up as A Typical Example Of How It Would Go is just outright wrong.
It’s not being held up as a ‘typical example of how it could go’ just an example to show guard winning is a plausible possibility.
And when there’s 1,000 squads of guardsmen the odds don’t have to be all that good for a marine win to be implausible.
For a marine to have a 10% chance of winning the odds of a given squad killing him need to be <0.23%
For a marine to have even a 1% chance of victory the odds of a given squad killing him need to be <0.46%
10,000 guardsmen is an awful lot of people, law of large numbers applies and a given squad of guardsmen don’t need all that great odds for the marine to have an insignificant chance of winning.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: All 40K canon is contradictory though. But on the abilities of an Astartes, it’s pretty consistent.
Then this one:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Marines built for endurance not speed? Factually incorrect. The speed varies between authors, from as low as 21kph to 80kph at a flat sprint. And they can maintain that far, far longer than a baseline human.
Oh the consistency!
And then you compare that to the fact that Marines have NEVER had a different movement value than a baseline human in 40K. Eldar are noted at being fast, and they've actually been represented as being fast through the tabletop rules through the editions. Marines? Never.
The 21kph to 80kph statement is the perfect illustration as to why you shouldn't rely on novels as a source. It's written for dramatics.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: And remember, the taking time to trash talk is purely narrative, rather than reflective of a given tactic or strategy.
I'm BEGGING you to just read the words.
How about you quote from the relevant bit? Here, I’ll save you the bother.
“Dyzun.’ I shrugged. ‘I hope you don’t mind me sticking my nose in, but it sounds as though something interesting’s going on.’
‘Glad to see you, sir,’ he said, with every sign of sincerity, and Emperor strike me dead if I’m exaggerating, but the whole lot of them started chanting my name like a battlecry.
‘Cain! Cain! Cain! Cain!’
Maybe it was that which took our opponent off-guard for a moment, mistaking it for the chant of the followers of his own blasphemous god, because he turned his head slowly to look at us, drawing his attention reluctantly from the corpses of second squad which lay all around him. Only a few survivors still stirred, trying feebly to raise weapons or crawl to safety.
‘Emperor on Earth!’ I said, my bowels spasming. The man, if man he still was, was a giant, towering over us all. My months as the Guard liaison to the Reclaimers had left me familiar with the superhuman stature of the Astartes and with a healthy respect for the strength and durability of the armour they wore, but this was no paladin of the Emperor’s will; quite the opposite. His armour was blood red and black, like the uniforms of the cultists still dying in droves around us, and chased with vile designs in burnished orichalcum. He carried a bolt pistol holstered at his belt, but apparently distained to use it. His hands, encased in massive gauntlets, gripped a curious weapon, like a battleaxe, but surrounded with whirling metal teeth like my own trusty chainsword.
‘You swear by the corpse god?’ The thing’s voice was gutteral, from a throat constricted with rage, and so deeply resonant that I felt it reverberate through my very bones. ‘Your skull will grace the throne of the true power!’
‘Big red thing, five rounds rapid fire!’ Dyzun ordered, remarkably calmly under the circumstances, and the troopers snapped out of their astonishment to comply[…]”
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: All 40K canon is contradictory though. But on the abilities of an Astartes, it’s pretty consistent.
Then this one:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Marines built for endurance not speed? Factually incorrect. The speed varies between authors, from as low as 21kph to 80kph at a flat sprint. And they can maintain that far, far longer than a baseline human.
Oh the consistency!
And then you compare that to the fact that Marines have NEVER had a different movement value than a baseline human in 40K. Eldar are noted at being fast, and they've actually been represented as being fast through the tabletop rules through the editions. Marines? Never.
The 21kph to 80kph statement is the perfect illustration as to why you shouldn't rely on novels as a source. It's written for dramatics.
Marines have always been described as being of faster pace, able to maintain it for hours. Well, I say always. At least since 2nd Ed for certain. And yes. It is written for dramatics. No argument there. Funny how that doesn’t apply to “and then this one trooper shot the marine with one las bolt and it killed him in the face and now he’s dead and so that’s what always happens when you fire a las gun at a Marine the Marine dies because that one time it happened and never mind it was in a Guard centric novel where if it hadn’t have worked that one time a chunk of if not all of the main characters would’ve been murdered to death by the Marine but it happened that one time so it happens every time”. Apparently.
Grotsnik, you've shown yourself throughout this thread to be a two-faced liar, but you still haven't shown that any intimidation caused by a marine in any excerpt you quoted is anything special. You should admit you're wrong and apologize.
Your chums above are desperately trying to quote mine their way out of evidence of troops being astonished (check it’s synonyms, including stupefied, shock and dismay) and Cain describing himself as being paralysed by fear.
My references and opinion remain intact, and based in the background, not wishful thinking,
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: All 40K canon is contradictory though. But on the abilities of an Astartes, it’s pretty consistent.
Then this one:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Marines built for endurance not speed? Factually incorrect. The speed varies between authors, from as low as 21kph to 80kph at a flat sprint. And they can maintain that far, far longer than a baseline human.
Oh the consistency!
And then you compare that to the fact that Marines have NEVER had a different movement value than a baseline human in 40K. Eldar are noted at being fast, and they've actually been represented as being fast through the tabletop rules through the editions. Marines? Never.
The 21kph to 80kph statement is the perfect illustration as to why you shouldn't rely on novels as a source. It's written for dramatics.
Marines have always been described as being of faster pace, able to maintain it for hours. Well, I say always. At least since 2nd Ed for certain. And yes. It is written for dramatics. No argument there. Funny how that doesn’t apply to “and then this one trooper shot the marine with one las bolt and it killed him in the face and now he’s dead and so that’s what always happens when you fire a las gun at a Marine the Marine dies because that one time it happened and never mind it was in a Guard centric novel where if it hadn’t have worked that one time a chunk of if not all of the main characters would’ve been murdered to death by the Marine but it happened that one time so it happens every time”. Apparently.
You know why we don't question Lasguns killing a Marine in the face? Because it was backed up by the tabletop for years. Everybody who's played 2nd can remember that time when a Grot or Guardsman or whatever puny trooper killed a Terminator with a lucky shot. It's an example of something which is actually consistent.
Btw, being able to maintain a fast pace is not speed, but endurance. A Marine squad can be operationally faster (as in covering large distances) than a Guardsman squad not because the Marine can sprint faster, but simply because he can keep that pace for longer. And maybe they are a little faster at sprinting than you're average guardsman, sure. They've still never been faster enough to warrant Eldar speed, or Genestealer speed, or even Horse speed, on the tabletop. And certainly not quick enough to avoid being shot at.
Your chums above are desperately trying to quote mine their way out of evidence of troops being astonished (check it’s synonyms, including stupefied, shock and dismay) and Cain describing himself as being paralysed by fear.
Even the quote YOU gave showed even a Marine being caught off guard. So maybe Marines aren't particularly special if Guardsmen can catch Marines themselves off guard, huh?
Hecaton wrote: Grotsnik, you've shown yourself throughout this thread to be a two-faced liar, but you still haven't shown that any intimidation caused by a marine in any excerpt you quoted is anything special. You should admit you're wrong and apologize.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: All 40K canon is contradictory though. But on the abilities of an Astartes, it’s pretty consistent.
Then this one:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Marines built for endurance not speed? Factually incorrect. The speed varies between authors, from as low as 21kph to 80kph at a flat sprint. And they can maintain that far, far longer than a baseline human.
Oh the consistency!
And then you compare that to the fact that Marines have NEVER had a different movement value than a baseline human in 40K. Eldar are noted at being fast, and they've actually been represented as being fast through the tabletop rules through the editions. Marines? Never.
The 21kph to 80kph statement is the perfect illustration as to why you shouldn't rely on novels as a source. It's written for dramatics.
Marines have always been described as being of faster pace, able to maintain it for hours. Well, I say always. At least since 2nd Ed for certain. And yes. It is written for dramatics. No argument there. Funny how that doesn’t apply to “and then this one trooper shot the marine with one las bolt and it killed him in the face and now he’s dead and so that’s what always happens when you fire a las gun at a Marine the Marine dies because that one time it happened and never mind it was in a Guard centric novel where if it hadn’t have worked that one time a chunk of if not all of the main characters would’ve been murdered to death by the Marine but it happened that one time so it happens every time”. Apparently.
You know why we don't question Lasguns killing a Marine in the face? Because it was backed up by the tabletop for years. Everybody who's played 2nd can remember that time when a Grot or Guardsman or whatever puny trooper killed a Terminator with a lucky shot. It's an example of something which is actually consistent.
Btw, being able to maintain a fast pace is not speed, but endurance. A Marine squad can be operationally faster (as in covering large distances) than a Guardsman squad not because the Marine can sprint faster, but simply because he can keep that pace for longer. And maybe they are a little faster at sprinting than you're average guardsman, sure. They've still never been faster enough to warrant Eldar speed, or Genestealer speed, or even Horse speed, on the tabletop. And certainly not quick enough to avoid being shot at.
Yet the background consistently has them as moving faster, with far swifter reactions, than a human. Exactly how much faster is frankly all over the shop. But “faster than a human” remains an established background fact. As ever, you not liking that is irrelevant.
Your chums above are desperately trying to quote mine their way out of evidence of troops being astonished (check it’s synonyms, including stupefied, shock and dismay) and Cain describing himself as being paralysed by fear.
Even the quote YOU gave showed even a Marine being caught off guard. So maybe Marines aren't particularly special if Guardsmen can catch Marines themselves off guard, huh?
Right. Stop. Go back.
Where have I claimed you can’t catch a Marine off guard? Where has that factored in to any of my arguments? Indeed I’ve suggested the Berserker here not just getting stuck in right away (possibly having been discombobulated by Guard chanting Khaine, or just revelling in the slaughter he just unleashed) was his mistake.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Altruizine wrote: We've established that transhuman dread "may cause momentary stupefaction, shock, or dismay."
Seems about as potent as the feeling I get when I open a new pot of Citadel paint and notice that it's already dried out.
That’s because you’re an oddly obtuse person, determined to misrepresent, misquote and outright deny established facts when you think you can get away with it.
You actually remind me of Matt Powell Official in that regard.
Faster reactions used to be represented by Initiative. A Marine was I4, a Guard was I3.
But, you know what they're slower than? A laser. Like that fired from a lasgun.
Grotsnik, what do you think the odds of a Marine's success is? Give us a percent, or at least a range of percents.
You submitted that the concept of transhuman dread could have some bearing on whether one Marine could defeat 10,000 Guardsmen.
The best example of transhuman dread you could provide showed a Marine momentarily transfixing one individual. Then that Marine was killed by the formerly transfixed.
Transfixed the squad, thank you. Guess you glossed over/chose to ignore where I explain the impact, and how it’s part of the overall situation, not the deciding factor, yeah?
Can you at least stick to disagreeing with things I’ve said, not things you need me to have said to construct your bogus counter arguments around, yeah?
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JNAProductions wrote: Faster reactions used to be represented by Initiative. A Marine was I4, a Guard was I3.
But, you know what they're slower than? A laser. Like that fired from a lasgun.
Grotsnik, what do you think the odds of a Marine's success is? Give us a percent, or at least a range of percents.
Well that’s asking for the impossible, as I’m not a statistician, nor have I ever claimed to be. There are also so many variables. The environment, the ambient light, the Chapter, the type of Marine, the Regiment, the Regiment’s Homeworld, whether it’s a newly founded or veteran Regiment and so on and so forth.
So I’ll stick to my “low, like, really really low, but never zero” chance of success.
See, that's a cop out. I'm not asking for precision-again, if you want to put a range where on the high end everything is favorable to the Marine but on the low end the opposite is true, that's fine.
But give SOMETHING. Is it ten percent? one percent? a tenth of a percent?
JNAProductions wrote: See, that's a cop out. I'm not asking for precision-again, if you want to put a range where on the high end everything is favorable to the Marine but on the low end the opposite is true, that's fine.
But give SOMETHING. Is it ten percent? one percent? a tenth of a percent?
He won't, because doing so means he can't motte-and-bailey all his idiotic claims anymore.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Transfixed the squad, thank you. Guess you glossed over/chose to ignore where I explain the impact, and how it’s part of the overall situation, not the deciding factor, yeah?
Yup, an effect indistinguishable from any number of other contingencies that could arise from warfare: an explosion, a tank, a Tyranid...
A split-second moment of indecision effortlessly overcome by training.
ie. largely irrelevant as a unique consideration beyond the normal psychology of warfare
I feel like this thread is like trying to convince an avid lottery ticket buyer how statistically impossible it is for them to win no matter how much they buy to get the $6 million dollar jackpot and despite the very clear statistics presented towards them he just keeps going "Well, there were several winners in the past, so that means I MUST have a chance!". I think the concept of statistics is so hard for him to conceptualize that it's why he's hand-waving the complete absurdity of 1 marine legitimately being a comparable or greater threat than 10,000 guardsmen.
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