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@ Mad Doc: lets say it doesn't really feel nice when you mention something, others bring (in my opinion at least) valid counterarguments, often with sources or citations and you call that "nuh-uh". I respect that it feels that way for you, but... let's say it looks a lot different standing over here.

But as you highlight again that you are interested in a serious discussion without handwaving away arguments or ignoring them. As you underlined the near invulnerability of Powerarmor + SM physique against lasgun fire: what is your stance/argument regarding my point further up, that their ammunition, grenades and at least large parts of their weapon are not armored in Ceramide? If a Space Marine is peppered with Lasbolts again and again, wouldn't it be just a question of time until one of his (Krak) grenades blows up?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I bring up trans-human dread. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I explain Marine physiology and the advantages it brings. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I’m told only to consider the rules. Then to only consider non-Codex background and round and round and round we go. Anything “advantage Astartes” is labelled “Bolter porn” and dismissed rather than actually engaged upon.

I speculate the Marine, based on canonical examples of them having their own Vox Channels, but being able to access Guard Vox Channels, could do some pretty interesting psy-Ops. I’m told “nuh-uh”.

Transhuman Dread, from the actually quoted background (the excerpts provided earlier were real handy) just... Doesn't seem to have much of an impact. Like, at all. Now, given, those are some veteran as heck Guardsmen, but there's a reason that training exists-it's so when you see something scary, you don't freeze-you shoot.
Marine physiology has lots of advantages, no one has disputed that. But 9,999 extra bodies is an advantage as well.

As someone who's brought up the rules, I've never said "Consider the rules and NOTHING ELSE," I've said "The rules show that a couple of squads can reliably take down a Marine, but the tabletop isn't 1-to-1 reflective of the fluff. But unless it's off by a factor of around 1,000... The Guard win."

A Marine in single combat versus a Guardsman (assuming typical representatives on both sides) is almost always gonna go in the Marine's favor. Melee combat especially, but shooting will still favor the Marine by a vast margin.
But this isn't a thread about single combat-it's about 10,000 to one.

Edit: And you've completely ignored that, should a Marine be messing with the Guard Vox, they can be tracked.

All about exploring how a Marine might tackle it, the equivalent of “you can eat an elephant if you take small enough bites”.

Transhuman Dread itself isn’t a solution. But it’s an element of the overall difficulty of fighting an Astartes. The sheer level of incredible violence, at the rate an Astartes can dish it out is another.

I feel it’s established beyond doubt the Astartes also has the technological edge. Even if the Guard could tune into his Vox net frequencies, it gains them nothing. Just passively listening in, having used his armour to scan frequencies for chatter, gives the Marine the advantage of knowing their deployment and patrol patterns. When getting stuck in to a Patrol, the Marine can effectively jam that channel, even in only by broadcasting on it. That patrol tackled, he’s plenty of puff and enough turn of speed to make himself scarce before any reinforcements arrive, should he wish to. Patrol by Patrol, platoon by platoon it could be done, albeit with a lot of luck. For instance, should the Marine spot a window to take out the Guard’s supreme command, that’s a significant change to the overall odds. The messes he leaves behind are going to be plentiful and horrifying.

I’ve even suggested ways the Guard could start to adapt, such as switching from Low Gothic to native languages, or just slang, something the Marine may not be familiar with, citing real world examples of such tricks being used to keep messages secure.

But all I get is “nuh-uh” and claims not based in anything canon about the Guard’s overall capabilities, such as their Vox units being advanced enough to do anything the poster wants, so long as it’s better than the Marine can do. Or the odd claim it would be 1 v 10,000 (all of whom have line of sight, line of fire, and range) at the same time. A lack of recognition or comprehension just how utterly, utterly bonkers Astartes are based on canon, and seemingly an insistence they’re just Tall Bois In Thicc Armour. That seeing your squad mates rent limb from limb in front of your eyes at a speed your brain insists shouldn’t be possible is No Big Thing. That all you need to do is jam a Bayonet through an armour seal and that’s the Marine dead. That the simple fact a Marine’s endurance is literally superhuman wouldn’t be a factor in a protracted fight, even just against a single Platoon.

There is plenty of room for actual interesting debate, but it’s all just “nuh-uh” and the dull scrape of goal posts being moved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
@ Mad Doc: lets say it doesn't really feel nice when you mention something, others bring (in my opinion at least) valid counterarguments, often with sources or citations and you call that "nuh-uh". I respect that it feels that way for you, but... let's say it looks a lot different standing over here.

But as you highlight again that you are interested in a serious discussion without handwaving away arguments or ignoring them. As you underlined the near invulnerability of Powerarmor + SM physique against lasgun fire: what is your stance/argument regarding my point further up, that their ammunition, grenades and at least large parts of their weapon are not armored in Ceramide? If a Space Marine is peppered with Lasbolts again and again, wouldn't it be just a question of time until one of his (Krak) grenades blows up?

Potentially. I guess. That would require us knowing how those grenades work, and what the bangy bit is actually made from. Since Rogue Trader, some Grenades have been described as being the size of a coin. It also depends upon the Astartes carrying them, and in a location vulnerable to enemy fire, even if they can be set off by a stray shot based on whatever chemical make up the explosive actually is.

If they’re maglocked or belt mounted on his hip? If that location is more bum ward than forward, the chance of it being hit in the first place is greatly reduced. And given the Astartes can reasonably expect to replenish a stock of grenades from his victims, and knows he’s up against it numbers wise, I think he’d probably use his quite early on in any engagement.

Again we come to the unknowns, such as the overall environment. Heavy as a fully armoured Marine is, they’re plenty strong and agile enough to climb wreckage or trees or ruins. Being the One against the Many, and able to listen in on enemy Vox, he has the advantage of choosing when and where to engage. Taken together, it’s entirely possible for him to find somewhere to hide out of sight, before dropping into the middle of a squad negotiating a choke point, which makes the risk of someone hitting a grenade much less likely. Hell, fighting inside a building, the Marine could even bring the house down with a decent chance of survival, unlike the poor squished Guardsmen.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Notice that Grotsnik isn't responding to the people who picked his argument apart and is trying to change the subject. This is bad-faith argumentation and is making the forum shittier.

Almost as if it’s all stuff I’ve previously addressed, only to be told “nuh-uh” in response.

Nor have I ever claimed (barring Marine in charge of an Escort Vessel) it’s likely the Marine could carry this particular day.

But, whatever floats your boat. It’s nice here in your head, and the rent is cheap

People have extensively shown why you're wrong and working off of an incorrect interpretation of the setting material. It's not "uh-uh" - it's "you're wrong and here's why." Like the excerpts from Abnett's work about regular humans killing Astartes, which you ignored.

Oh but I did address them. And at no point have I said Marines can’t be killed, or that such a task is beyond the Guard.

Basically, see above.

@ Mad Doc: to clear this up, because I'm still not sure, if we just misunderstand each other massively:
If I would ask you "What are the odds of the single Marine taking on those 10.000 Guardsmen?" in what rough ballpark would you estimate that? Because I have the feeling a lot of the contradiction is based on at least myself assuming a "90+%" on your side, while it might be vastly different.

Low. Like, really low. Sheer attrition alone, even if it was some Tzeentchian “I shall feed them one by one by one by one” would see to that, even if only 25% of the Guard ever landed a blow.

But given time, strategy and luck, it is doable.

On an inhospitable world, the odds shift, as the Marine can resort to sabotage and stealth to do serious damage. The more inhospitable, the greater that advantage becomes.

But still one of the biggest advantages? The Marine will have almost certainly fought Guard or equivalent before. The Marine will have at the very least a solid understanding of their command structure as part of his decades of training. To the Guard? Space Marines are legends, and given the existence of Chaos, let alone Chaos Marines is suppressed and outright denied? They’re not trained how to tackle such a foe.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

. . . A lack of recognition or comprehension just how utterly, utterly bonkers Astartes are based on canon . . .

Canon which has been repeatedly shown to be highly suspect, and oftentimes contradictory. That's the problem.

It's like watching a John Woo movie and thinking that it's real life.

I think "nuh-uh" must just be one of those not-actually-in-use items of English slang he insists on lacing his posts with.

Must translate to something like "proven so wrong I abandon the argument".

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

. . . A lack of recognition or comprehension just how utterly, utterly bonkers Astartes are based on canon . . .

Canon which has been repeatedly shown to be highly suspect, and oftentimes contradictory. That's the problem.

It's like watching a John Woo movie and thinking that it's real life.

All 40K canon is contradictory though. But on the abilities of an Astartes, it’s pretty consistent.

They’re not lumbering brutes relying on, erm, brute, force. They’re faster, stronger and just better than baseline humans. Their entire design was to be the ultimate shock troop, able to dish out horrific damage and violence, and survive what the enemy can throw at them. They’re like nothing else in the universe. And that’s something folk have seemed intent on glossing over.

Sure, the initial shock won’t last forever. But it doesn’t have to. It just has to last the rest of the Guardsman’s life - which when a Marine is going hand to hand, armed or not, is gonna be pretty short.

Hence why, rules wise, I refer folks to Inquisitor. That really showed the difference between an Astartes and a Human in all aspects. Bigger. Faster. Stronger. Superior skill, vastly superior endurance.

Guardsmen need sleep and rest. An Astartes….doesn’t. Not on the same scale. The Marine can operate at peak efficiency without rest for days at a time. That’s something the Astartes will know, and can exploit. Even if it just constant, ongoing feints with the occasional ‘actually this time I’m gonna do some fancy killing’, that keeps his foe on edge. The more stress you can subject the Guard to, the less meaningful rest they’ll get. The less meaningful rest, the greater the physical and psychological impact on them, and the less combat ready they’ll become, whilst the Marine can stave off the same far longer. And when the Marine does have to rest? Like, properly rest, not the half on half off brain thing? He’s one individual, and the Guard have no reliable way to track his movements in real-time - and when he can run at 20-30mph for days at a time? He can be over the hills and far, far away before they can track him using conventional “big footprint, it go this way” means, giving plenty of time to rest.

So there’s far more to it to just shooters and fisticuffs.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I bring up trans-human dread. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I explain Marine physiology and the advantages it brings. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I’m told only to consider the rules. Then to only consider non-Codex background and round and round and round we go. Anything “advantage Astartes” is labelled “Bolter porn” and dismissed rather than actually engaged upon.

I speculate the Marine, based on canonical examples of them having their own Vox Channels, but being able to access Guard Vox Channels, could do some pretty interesting psy-Ops. I’m told “nuh-uh”.

I think you’ve maybe come across unintentionally a bit stronger in favour of the marine than you perhaps thought? You’ve said in the last few posts you think a marine win is unlikely, but that’s maybe not how it came across in some earlier posts? Probably not helped by certain other individuals in the thread coming across like a marine win is probable, perhaps even certain, which rather got people’s backs up.

Also you do seem to rather downplay the abilities of guardsmen. They’re not SF sure, but they’re not untrained non-combatants either.

10,000 is a lot of guardsmen. Frankly an unreasonable amount of guardsman for even a marine to take on his own, especially if they’re equipped as they would normally be for a force of that size. The marine needs pretty much perfect circumstances, incredible amounts of luck, and fairly poor quality guardsmen to have any hope of a win against those numbers. And even that would likely take an unreasonable amount of time. Probably a better option is the marine sabotaging something critical that’ll explode and kill them for him (like a dam say, or an ordnance dump).

All those things you mention are definitely factors that will allow the marine to take on a frankly terrifying amount of trained soldiers. But none of them are really decisive on their own. Certainly not 10,000 decisive (in my, and others, opinions).

 Altruizine wrote:
I think "nuh-uh" must just be one of those not-actually-in-use items of English slang he insists on lacing his posts with.

Must translate to something like "proven so wrong I abandon the argument".

On the slang, get yourself a Profanisaurus. Magna Farta is available digitally. War and Piss may also be, but I’ve got Magna Farta. Just because you don’t recognise it, doesn’t stop it being slang (indeed, see my earlier point about how the Guard could counter the Marine eavesdropping if it became apparent he was doing so).

And by “nuh-uh”, try folk discounting transhuman dread by saying “but the don’t cause fear in the game” as a single example. Or claiming Lasguns are all super deadly because that one time in one book one Guardsman took one shot and killed a Marine outright therefore all Lasguns do that 100% of the time every time” false equivalence. To name but two such “nuh-uh”


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I bring up trans-human dread. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I explain Marine physiology and the advantages it brings. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I’m told only to consider the rules. Then to only consider non-Codex background and round and round and round we go. Anything “advantage Astartes” is labelled “Bolter porn” and dismissed rather than actually engaged upon.

I speculate the Marine, based on canonical examples of them having their own Vox Channels, but being able to access Guard Vox Channels, could do some pretty interesting psy-Ops. I’m told “nuh-uh”.

I think you’ve maybe come across unintentionally a bit stronger in favour of the marine than you perhaps thought? You’ve said in the last few posts you think a marine win is unlikely, but that’s maybe not how it came across in some earlier posts? Probably not helped by certain other individuals in the thread coming across like a marine win is probable, perhaps even certain, which rather got people’s backs up.

Also you do seem to rather downplay the abilities of guardsmen. They’re not SF sure, but they’re not untrained non-combatants either.

10,000 is a lot of guardsmen. Frankly an unreasonable amount of guardsman for even a marine to take on his own, especially if they’re equipped as they would normally be for a force of that size. The marine needs pretty much perfect circumstances, incredible amounts of luck, and fairly poor quality guardsmen to have any hope of a win against those numbers. And even that would likely take an unreasonable amount of time. Probably a better option is the marine sabotaging something critical that’ll explode and kill them for him (like a dam say, or an ordnance dump).

All those things you mention are definitely factors that will allow the marine to take on a frankly terrifying amount of trained soldiers. But none of them are really decisive on their own. Certainly not 10,000 decisive (in my, and others, opinions).

Huge part of it is who The Marine is killing. If he can get to the Command fairly early on? Those 10,000 Guard lose central organisation.

And it’s not downplaying the Guard as soldiers, so much as exploiting the overly compartmentalised nature of the Imperial War Machine. Guardsmen are boots on the ground, the overwhelming force brought to bear which, if nothing else, will drown the enemy in a tidal wave of life-goo should they get murdered to death en-masse. Their training reflects that. The Marine is a Swiss Army Killing Machine, with decades if not centuries of experience slaughtering the enemies of Mankind.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And by “nuh-uh”, try folk discounting transhuman dread by saying “but the don’t cause fear in the game” as a single example. Or claiming Lasguns are all super deadly because that one time in one book one Guardsman took one shot and killed a Marine outright therefore all Lasguns do that 100% of the time every time” false equivalence. To name but two such “nuh-uh”

People gave lots of good reasons why TD isn't to be taken seriously. You ignored them because your fetish for TD is more important than truth i.e. you're willing to bs to support the idea.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:
I think "nuh-uh" must just be one of those not-actually-in-use items of English slang he insists on lacing his posts with.

Must translate to something like "proven so wrong I abandon the argument".

On the slang, get yourself a Profanisaurus. Magna Farta is available digitally. War and Piss may also be, but I’ve got Magna Farta. Just because you don’t recognise it, doesn’t stop it being slang (indeed, see my earlier point about how the Guard could counter the Marine eavesdropping if it became apparent he was doing so).

And by “nuh-uh”, try folk discounting transhuman dread by saying “but the don’t cause fear in the game” as a single example. Or claiming Lasguns are all super deadly because that one time in one book one Guardsman took one shot and killed a Marine outright therefore all Lasguns do that 100% of the time every time” false equivalence. To name but two such “nuh-uh”

Lasguns don’t need to be super deadly when you’ve got 10,000 of them.

Even if only half the guardsman get to fire, discounting the effects of accumulating damage and assuming all lasguns with a 0.1% chance of each shot taking the marine out, the marine still only has a 0.67% chance of surviving.

10,000 guardsmen is a lot of people.

That’s a lot of opportunities to win. And that’s just lasguns.

In a typical guard force of that size you’d likely have hundreds of weapons that can realistically one-shot the marine (plasma, krak missiles, lascannons, meltaguns); hundreds more with decent odds (autocannons, heavy bolters); and hundreds more that will do significant enough damage to significantly reduce the marines advantages.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
I think you’ve maybe come across unintentionally a bit stronger in favour of the marine than you perhaps thought?

It's not unintentional. He's just trying to play the victim after getting dogpiled with accurate information, because he has too much of an ego to admit he's wrong, despite having a poor understanding of the background material.

Let's focus on how he was wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
All 40K canon is contradictory though. But on the abilities of an Astartes, it’s pretty consistent.

No, it's not. Sometimes they can punch through Custodes armor bare-handed, sometimes they get headshotted by a long las.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
They’re not lumbering brutes relying on, erm, brute, force. They’re faster, stronger and just better than baseline humans. Their entire design was to be the ultimate shock troop, able to dish out horrific damage and violence, and survive what the enemy can throw at them. They’re like nothing else in the universe. And that’s something folk have seemed intent on glossing over.

People aren't glossing over it, it's just that the Imperial Guard has the biggest brute force hammer in the setting. Probably. And definitely more than Space Marines, and trivially so with a massive numbers advantage like the scenario in this thread. So no, you're wrong, people in this thread do understand the situation, it's *you* who don't.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hence why, rules wise, I refer folks to Inquisitor. That really showed the difference between an Astartes and a Human in all aspects. Bigger. Faster. Stronger. Superior skill, vastly superior endurance.

Funny that you refer to an obscure game and hold it up as canon, when every other game in the setting backs the people arguing against you. Guess what, the rules for Inquisitor back up the idea that a single Astartes will die to a squad of Guardsmen too. So you're still wrong.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Guardsmen need sleep and rest. An Astartes….doesn’t. Not on the same scale. The Marine can operate at peak efficiency without rest for days at a time. That’s something the Astartes will know, and can exploit. Even if it just constant, ongoing feints with the occasional ‘actually this time I’m gonna do some fancy killing’, that keeps his foe on edge. The more stress you can subject the Guard to, the less meaningful rest they’ll get. The less meaningful rest, the greater the physical and psychological impact on them, and the less combat ready they’ll become, whilst the Marine can stave off the same far longer. And when the Marine does have to rest? Like, properly rest, not the half on half off brain thing? He’s one individual, and the Guard have no reliable way to track his movements in real-time - and when he can run at 20-30mph for days at a time? He can be over the hills and far, far away before they can track him using conventional “big footprint, it go this way” means, giving plenty of time to rest.

The guardsmen can sleep in shifts, you ninny, just like every other armed force. There's 10,000 of them. Get over yourself.

And no, Astartes cannot run for 20-30 mph for days at a time, unless we're talking about heavily cybernetically modified ones. That's actually a point about units like the Morlocks - but basic Astartes *cannot* do that.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So there’s far more to it to just shooters and fisticuffs.

Yes, and it all seems beyond you and your pathetic understanding of the situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I bring up trans-human dread. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I explain Marine physiology and the advantages it brings. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I’m told only to consider the rules. Then to only consider non-Codex background and round and round and round we go. Anything “advantage Astartes” is labelled “Bolter porn” and dismissed rather than actually engaged upon.

I speculate the Marine, based on canonical examples of them having their own Vox Channels, but being able to access Guard Vox Channels, could do some pretty interesting psy-Ops. I’m told “nuh-uh”.

You're told that because you're wrong. You're wrong about the fluff, *and* you're wrong about the rules. You have nowhere to retreat to in the argument because your argument is baseless. You *should* feel like people are telling you no, because any reasonable person would reject your arguments, and what's more, you lack the mental acuity ot understand their very basic counterarguments.

And no, Astartes do not have access to all of the Guard's vox channels, and they use encryption.

"Could do some interesting psy ops" is a very small chance compared to "he broadcasts his location when he tries to transmit and gets an earthshaker round dropped on his head." You should acknowledge you were wrong about that.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:
I think "nuh-uh" must just be one of those not-actually-in-use items of English slang he insists on lacing his posts with.

Must translate to something like "proven so wrong I abandon the argument".

On the slang, get yourself a Profanisaurus. Magna Farta is available digitally. War and Piss may also be, but I’ve got Magna Farta. Just because you don’t recognise it, doesn’t stop it being slang (indeed, see my earlier point about how the Guard could counter the Marine eavesdropping if it became apparent he was doing so).

And by “nuh-uh”, try folk discounting transhuman dread by saying “but the don’t cause fear in the game” as a single example. Or claiming Lasguns are all super deadly because that one time in one book one Guardsman took one shot and killed a Marine outright therefore all Lasguns do that 100% of the time every time” false equivalence. To name but two such “nuh-uh”


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I bring up trans-human dread. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I explain Marine physiology and the advantages it brings. I’m told “nuh-uh”. I’m told only to consider the rules. Then to only consider non-Codex background and round and round and round we go. Anything “advantage Astartes” is labelled “Bolter porn” and dismissed rather than actually engaged upon.

I speculate the Marine, based on canonical examples of them having their own Vox Channels, but being able to access Guard Vox Channels, could do some pretty interesting psy-Ops. I’m told “nuh-uh”.

I think you’ve maybe come across unintentionally a bit stronger in favour of the marine than you perhaps thought? You’ve said in the last few posts you think a marine win is unlikely, but that’s maybe not how it came across in some earlier posts? Probably not helped by certain other individuals in the thread coming across like a marine win is probable, perhaps even certain, which rather got people’s backs up.

Also you do seem to rather downplay the abilities of guardsmen. They’re not SF sure, but they’re not untrained non-combatants either.

10,000 is a lot of guardsmen. Frankly an unreasonable amount of guardsman for even a marine to take on his own, especially if they’re equipped as they would normally be for a force of that size. The marine needs pretty much perfect circumstances, incredible amounts of luck, and fairly poor quality guardsmen to have any hope of a win against those numbers. And even that would likely take an unreasonable amount of time. Probably a better option is the marine sabotaging something critical that’ll explode and kill them for him (like a dam say, or an ordnance dump).

All those things you mention are definitely factors that will allow the marine to take on a frankly terrifying amount of trained soldiers. But none of them are really decisive on their own. Certainly not 10,000 decisive (in my, and others, opinions).

Huge part of it is who The Marine is killing. If he can get to the Command fairly early on? Those 10,000 Guard lose central organisation.

And it’s not downplaying the Guard as soldiers, so much as exploiting the overly compartmentalised nature of the Imperial War Machine. Guardsmen are boots on the ground, the overwhelming force brought to bear which, if nothing else, will drown the enemy in a tidal wave of life-goo should they get murdered to death en-masse. Their training reflects that. The Marine is a Swiss Army Killing Machine, with decades if not centuries of experience slaughtering the enemies of Mankind.

Marines going for the command is of course their SOPs, and why at a theatre level a marine *force* is worth multiple orders of ten times their number of human troops. Because taking out central command at an operational level then allows the marines (and the rest of the Imperial war machine they frequently operate alongside) to use that window of opportunity to isolate and neutralise sub-formations of the enemy before they can reorganise. Or use that window to take out other critical targets. That’s just standard warfare but magnified because marines are awesome and they’re particularly good at that.

Not to mention shock and awe into the political leadership (another marine speciality) cause the surviving leadership to rapidly surrender. Especially if only the very top level actually want to fight).

But that’s at a theatre level and doesn’t really apply to our 1 marine vs 10,000 guardsmen scenario, especially if we’re talking about actually killing all 10,000.

Guardsmen have leadership at every level of the chain (assuming a single force not 10,000 random guardsmen). Each squad has a commander, every 2-6 squads make a platoon with another commander, every 2-6 platoons another, etc.

And field promotions when the commanders at various levels die are common as pretty much any guard BL book shows. Take out the command and after some hours they’ll reorganise themselves into a new hierarchy.

Now that’s a pretty significant window for an actual strike force of marines to do devastating amounts of damage, and in the right part of the theatre enough to win you the war (which is what marines are for).

But one single marine is just not going to kill a meaningful enough proportion of 10,000 people in the same timeframe to make much of a dent before they sort themselves out. Particularly as he’d have killed a much smaller proportion of the overall command structure.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

And by “nuh-uh”, try folk discounting transhuman dread by saying “but the don’t cause fear in the game” as a single example.

A single example of what, you being wrong again?

The continuing transhuman dread fixation is wild. Because:

- you still haven't bothered to try to find an excerpt of it actually doing anything anywhere in a combat environment
- you're still solely relying on that one unsubstantiated passage from Aximand (from a fiction anthology I don't think you've read)
- it comes from a fiction anthology, so doesn't even fulfill your own (false) metric of codex >>> Black Library
- in addition to it seemingly not being demonstrated in any fiction, it's also not a strong enough effect to appear in any rules

Do you see why everyone thinks you're a weirdo? Taking all of the above together, do you see why it's really weird to watch someone seize on a single nugget of obscure lore that appears to turn them on, and refuse to let it go? Like, we shouldn't even be talking about TD at all this far into the conversation. If you were a rational person you would have, at some point, confronted with all of the above, given up weakly gesturing to TD as if it had any bearing on what we've been discussing. The fact that you can't let go of something so comprehensively-proven to be irrelevant to the discussion makes you a suspicious actor.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

40K wiki thing mentions speeds of 12,000kph on descent, fast enough to evade “all but the most advanced AA system”.

Oh, GW...you're so bad at numbers.

"All but the most advanced AA systems" my rear end...ain't nothing is keeping up with that. 12,000 kph is 200 km/s. That means said drop pod would transverse the nominal extent of Earth's atmosphere in half a second. As another reference, from what I've been able to find, a spacecraft needs to change its speed by ~12.2 km/s to leave Earth orbit and ~30.3 km/s to leave the sun's orbit. For what it's worth, the droppod would not escape the orbit of the Milky Way (wikipedia says that takes ~500 km/s from location of the solar system). I'm reminded of the birth rate vs recruitment math that was being done for the Catachan guard tithe in another thread

(and in case your wondering, yes I did look up delta-v maps of the solar system to figure this out...here's the one I used if you're interested: http://srjskam.blogspot.com/2017/09/delta-v-map-of-solar-system.html ; you add up the values, which are in km/s, between the Earth and the destination...makes me want to boot kerbal space program up and crash some rockets)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And by “nuh-uh”, try folk discounting transhuman dread by saying “but the don’t cause fear in the game” as a single example. Or claiming Lasguns are all super deadly because that one time in one book one Guardsman took one shot and killed a Marine outright therefore all Lasguns do that 100% of the time every time” false equivalence. To name but two such “nuh-uh”

So a lasgun killing a marine in one shot is "just that one time" but "transhuman dread" is somehow an essential part of the lore despite being an equally rare thing? And despite GW's own movie clearly showing marines moving at normal human speeds?


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Lord Zarkov wrote:
In a typical guard force of that size you’d likely have hundreds of weapons that can realistically one-shot the marine (plasma, krak missiles, lascannons, meltaguns); hundreds more with decent odds (autocannons, heavy bolters); and hundreds more that will do significant enough damage to significantly reduce the marines advantages.

Exactly. You can say "BUT TRANSHUMAN DREAD" all you like, but all it takes is one guardsman getting a lock with a krak missile from a mile away and the marine is dead.

Isn't it more of a case that a marine can match a human at full sprint in heavy armor for a far, far longer time than what even an athlete could maintain?

If this is a pitched battle of marine vs guard I'd imagine the guard wouldn't struggle to gather the courage to point and shoot at the guy running across the field. When he gets within arm's reach, yeah I can see some of the guard wanting to make some distance.

Your maths is off, Deadliestidiot.

1200km/h is 3.3km/s.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

. . . A lack of recognition or comprehension just how utterly, utterly bonkers Astartes are based on canon . . .

Canon which has been repeatedly shown to be highly suspect, and oftentimes contradictory. That's the problem.

It's like watching a John Woo movie and thinking that it's real life.

All 40K canon is contradictory though. But on the abilities of an Astartes, it’s pretty consistent.

They’re not lumbering brutes relying on, erm, brute, force. They’re faster, stronger and just better than baseline humans. Their entire design was to be the ultimate shock troop, able to dish out horrific damage and violence, and survive what the enemy can throw at them. They’re like nothing else in the universe. And that’s something folk have seemed intent on glossing over.

But you seem to be glossing over the fact that there are many, MANY threats in the universe that are even bigger, stronger, faster, and more horrific than a Marine. . . And Guardsmen successfully fight them all the time.

All the faffery about "horrific violence" falls flat in the face of Tyranids, Daemons, Necrons that wear skin, Dark Eldar in general, etc.

And as also mentioned, Marine speed is largely operational. A marine squad can march fast and redeploy 'fresh' or days, yes. They're not particularly hard to shoot though, because they're built for endurance, not speed.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Your maths is off, Deadliestidiot.

1200km/h is 3.3km/s.

*facepalm*

You're absolutely right! I only converted to km/minute

3.33 km/s is much less absurd (or at least it's in the range where I don't imediately call BS on GW for throwing it out there). Ah well...at least I had fun with the delta-v tables

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Exactly. You can say "BUT TRANSHUMAN DREAD" all you like, but all it takes is one guardsman getting a lock with a krak missile from a mile away and the marine is dead.

One Krak Grenade, even.

All of which I’ve acknowledged, and at no point have I claimed “Guard cannot kill a Marine”. Please stop addressing claims I’ve never made.

Now, let’s address some of the odder criticisms.

Much as you guys don’t like it, Transhuman Dread remains part of the lore. You not liking it doesn’t change that.

Guardsmen do fight numerous threats to The Imperium, absolutely they do. They die in droves, and don’t always win. My entire exploration here is exactly how a Marine might tackle the task.

Marines built for endurance not speed? Factually incorrect. The speed varies between authors, from as low as 21kph to 80kph at a flat sprint. And they can maintain that far, far longer than a baseline human.

“Oh they’d just call in an artillery barrage”. On….what coordinates? How exactly are the Guard finding the Marine’s location unless he’s launching an attack? You have to conceded artillery takes time to reorient direction and set elevation etc. With the Marine’s speed, he’s a decent window of withdrawal, and at a speed the Guard cannot match on foot.

Yes single Lasguns or Krak grenades can kill a Marine. Please, show me where I’ve ever disputed that? Then show me in the background where that’s a regular occurrence. Because I’ll point to the indisputable fact that Marine’s haven’t become a tactical irrelevance as proof positive such happenings are exceptionally rare.

Sleep in shifts? Yes they absolutely can. But what happens when your sleep in interrupted over a sustained period? It’s not as bad as going without sleep or rest completely, sure. But it still wears you down, military training or not. By comparison, the quoted record for continuous combat by Astartes is 328 hours. Or just shy of 14 days. Here, would the Marine need to push that? Depends on the overall environment being fought in. Urban or Arboreal is going to be a complete sod to check and clear at the best of times, so looking for the Marine is needle in a haystack. Sure if he’s discovered when sleeping it could go really bad. But again, they can get to places barely accessible due baseline humans.

Still no addressing the massive mismatch in intelligence either. The Marine, through their training and indeed purpose, will have an understanding of the Guard’s Command Structure, which barring variances in rank naming is pretty set and overall tactics. The Guard have nothing like that on the near-mythical Astartes (remember, the existence of Chaos is commonly denied, the existence of CSM even more so). Oh they’ll have heard of them in sermons and legends. But that’s about it.

These are all factors which grant advantages to the Marine, making a victory, however unlikely, possible. You not liking them, or simply writing them off as “Bolter porn” doesn’t change their status as established, canonical facts.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Much as you guys don’t like it, Transhuman Dread remains part of the lore. You not liking it doesn’t change that.

Then so is marines dying to getting stabbed with a pointy stick.

What of Sar Fareth?’

‘Dead.’

‘What?’

‘Killed ten months ago, shortly after you left. Slain by a human, of all things. An unlucky thrust with a wooden spear.’ Argel Tal tapped two fingertips against his neck. ‘Tore out most of his throat, laid it bare to the bone. I’ve never seen anything like it. Blood of the gods, I’d have laughed if it hadn’t been so pathetically tragic. He bled out before the Apothecaries could reach him, still trying to shout the whole time.’


So sure, the guardsmen are scared. All it takes is one of them pulling the pin on a frag grenade, which is far more of a threat than a pointy stick, before dying and the marine is dead.

Marines built for endurance not speed? Factually incorrect. The speed varies between authors, from as low as 21kph to 80kph at a flat sprint. And they can maintain that far, far longer than a baseline human.

That's interesting, because when GW had the opportunity to show us in movie form what space marines look like this is what we got:




Looks like they're no faster than normal humans.

On….what coordinates?

"WE'RE OVERRUN ALL GUNS FIRE ON MY POSITION!"

This is artillery we're talking about, not a sniper shot. If a single guardsman survives long enough to report their death artillery can wipe the entire grid square off the map. And calling in that final martyrdom barrage is such a common thing that guard even have a tabletop stratagem for it.

Because I’ll point to the indisputable fact that Marine’s haven’t become a tactical irrelevance as proof positive such happenings are exceptionally rare.

It's hardly indisputable. Marines aren't relevant. They're too few in number to matter on a strategic scale and most of their supposed use cases can be done better by artillery and orbital bombardment. If you know the position of the enemy HQ accurately enough to send a marine to kill them you know it accurately enough to glass the entire area from orbit with a lance strike or call in a Basilisk barrage to kill everything in the entire grid square. The main thing marines are good for is propaganda, providing the hope that if you're faithful and obedient enough and keep fighting as long as possible marines might save you. And in that context it's ok of a marine dies to a pointy stick sometimes, you just don't show that on the propaganda broadcast.

Still no addressing the massive mismatch in intelligence either.

Because it isn't relevant. The guardsmen aren't trying to find the best way to use a marine effectively in the context of the larger strategic situation, they're firing in self defense against a target in their immediate area. And it only takes one hit from an anti-marine weapon or even a lucky stab from a pointy stick to kill the marine. You don't need a ton of research and an elaborate spy network to see a nearby squad under attack and fire a krak missile at the thing killing them.

DeadliestIdiot wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Your maths is off, Deadliestidiot.

1200km/h is 3.3km/s.

*facepalm*

You're absolutely right! I only converted to km/minute

3.33 km/s is much less absurd (or at least it's in the range where I don't imediately call BS on GW for throwing it out there). Ah well...at least I had fun with the delta-v tables

For what it's worth, 12.000 km/h is the upper end of what current conventional hypersonic missiles can achieve. Extremely hard to counter, to the point that they are touted as un-interceptable by conventional means, but there are two things to consider.

1. Lasers: current research in countermeasures is pretty focused - npi - on lasers as a potential counter to hypervelocity ammunition, because a laser hits with the speed of light, i.e. instantaneous for all practical considerations. That solves a bunch of problems and opens up new ones: namely that you need a laser source that can output enough energy fast enough to transfer sufficient power for a kill in short enough time, and that you need systems that allow to keep the missile in focus for that amount of time. Both are solved or close to solved right now in principle, with the next problem being that you need to pack all that in a system that can remain operational under field conditions. In 40k, these problems are solved for at least some factions.

2. Saturation fire: If you can dish out enough shots, you don't need a clean killshot to destroy a pod. At the given speed, even superficial damage to the heat shields or the guidance system of a pod should lead to catastrophic failure almost instantly, as the pod would either reach unsurvivable temperatures or be ripped apart by the pressure. So if you could fling enough lead and shrapnel in the right general direction you could be pretty sure to bag the lot of them.

Intelligence absolutely matters. Specifically Military Intelligence.

The Marine has options the Guard don’t. As previously mentioned, being able to eavesdrop on their Vox Chatter is one. Being able to broadcast on Guard frequencies (having used his armour’s gubbins to scan said frequencies) also means he can keep the channel open, or broadcast on it himself.

That alone can prevent calls for aid/bombardment being sent in the first place. And he can always just nix the Vox Operator(s) as priority targets. Or even just take out the senior officer, preventing such extremis orders, or at least delaying them.

Hell, if you want to get super nasty? Tap in to their Vox. Hit record. Keep recording throughout the engagement. Soon as that order is requested, Get Out Of Dodge as quick as you can.

Provided you survive that, you’ve just got yourself a recording of a rather useful order - and abandoned the target to their own barrage.

If it’s an Infiltrator, with their more sophisticated comms gubbins? There’s even the possibility of reusing that order to use the Guard’s own artillery against it.

Even if it just “listen and leg it” when it comes to that order? The barrage isn’t instantaneous. The guns still need to be brought to bear along the right heading and elevation. Even if that’s the work of seconds or a minute or so? That’s still time for the Marine to break off, seek cover etc. So again the actual environment in play matters to the overall odds.

Again we see “one Marine was killed with a stick” as if that’s a common occurence, and something therefore the Guard can rely on. For clarity again, because folk just don’t seem to want to acknowledge it, at no point have I claimed Guard cannot kill Marines, or that Marines can’t fall to unlikely means. My issue is “one time” being conflated with “every time”

There are ways and means and methods and tricks the Marine can tilt the odds more in his favour. They’re still long odds, but better odds all the same.

To return to the Infiltrator? Decent chance of not only striking directly at Regimental Command, but also sabotaging food, ammo, water and artillery rounds. Get the Earthshaker ammo cooking off, and that’s gonna be a big old problem for the Guard right there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tsagualsa wrote:

DeadliestIdiot wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Your maths is off, Deadliestidiot.

1200km/h is 3.3km/s.

*facepalm*

You're absolutely right! I only converted to km/minute

3.33 km/s is much less absurd (or at least it's in the range where I don't imediately call BS on GW for throwing it out there). Ah well...at least I had fun with the delta-v tables

For what it's worth, 12.000 km/h is the upper end of what current conventional hypersonic missiles can achieve. Extremely hard to counter, to the point that they are touted as un-interceptable by conventional means, but there are two things to consider.

1. Lasers: current research in countermeasures is pretty focused - npi - on lasers as a potential counter to hypervelocity ammunition, because a laser hits with the speed of light, i.e. instantaneous for all practical considerations. That solves a bunch of problems and opens up new ones: namely that you need a laser source that can output enough energy fast enough to transfer sufficient power for a kill in short enough time, and that you need systems that allow to keep the missile in focus for that amount of time. Both are solved or close to solved right now in principle, with the next problem being that you need to pack all that in a system that can remain operational under field conditions. In 40k, these problems are solved for at least some factions.

2. Saturation fire: If you can dish out enough shots, you don't need a clean killshot to destroy a pod. At the given speed, even superficial damage to the heat shields or the guidance system of a pod should lead to catastrophic failure almost instantly, as the pod would either reach unsurvivable temperatures or be ripped apart by the pressure. So if you could fling enough lead and shrapnel in the right general direction you could be pretty sure to bag the lot of them.

Still the issue of range, and warning time.

The speed of a Drop Pod is intended to give no warning. Poop them out the ship, ram them through the atmosphere, get landed and get killing as quickly as possible. And as speculated, for a Supply Pod, there’s little to no need to send it anywhere near enemy positions, because the Marine can retrieve it at relative leisure. Yes the Guard could be widespread across an area….but that’s only going to help the Marine with the “small enough bites” potential solution.

As it was stated before that instances of transhuman dread in the source material incredibly rare, usually in character and not in combat:

Could you, Mad Doc list a handful of sources where that was relevant?
In the opposite site we already have the Cain Novels, some Ghost Novels, that except with the points stick. And I assume more could be found.

Sure.

Nightbringer, where a Marine passing by in a carriage stops a riot dead in its tracks. Doesn’t step out or get involved. Just being driven past silences the mob.

Traitors Hand. Yes Cain is able to briefly engage a rampaging Berzerker, but freely admits had his foes first move been different (I can’t recall if it was overhead or a swipe he went for) then Cain would’ve been dead - and it had just slaughtered another Guard squad. Cain himself is expressly noted as a truly exceptional duellist. Even he can’t fight it to a stand still, just provides enough resistance for Jurgen to turn his Meltagun on it once Cain breaks free. Here’s the quote.

The Traitors Hand, Chapter 13 wrote: “Maybe it was that which took our opponent off-guard for a moment, mistaking it for the chant of the followers of his own blasphemous god, because he turned his head slowly to look at us, drawing his attention reluctantly from the corpses of second squad which lay all around him. Only a few survivors still stirred, trying feebly to raise weapons or crawl to safety.
‘Emperor on Earth!’ I said, my bowels spasming. The man, if man he still was, was a giant, towering over us all. My months as the Guard liaison to the Reclaimers had left me familiar with the superhuman stature of the Astartes and with a healthy respect for the strength and durability of the armour they wore, but this was no paladin of the Emperor’s will; quite the opposite. His armour was blood red and black, like the uniforms of the cultists still dying in droves around us, and chased with vile designs in burnished orichalcum. He carried a bolt pistol holstered at his belt, but apparently distained to use it. His hands, encased in massive gauntlets, gripped a curious weapon, like a battleaxe, but surrounded with whirling metal teeth like my own.

“You swear by the corpse god?’ The thing’s voice was gutteral, from a throat constricted with rage, and so deeply resonant that I felt it reverberate through my very bones. ‘Your skull will grace the throne of the true power!’
‘Big red thing, five rounds rapid fire!’ Dyzun ordered, remarkably calmly under the circumstances, and the troopers snapped out of their astonishment to comply. But the twisted parody of a Marine was fast, at least as agile as one of the true heroes he aped, and leapt aside, avoiding most of it. The few las bolts which struck his armour scored it, adding to the pockmarks already inflicted by the luckless second squad, and I felt vindictive laughter resonating through my bones.”

Excerpt From
The Traitor's Hand
Sandy Mitchell
https://books.apple.com/gb/book/the-traitors-hand/id440530381
This material may be protected by copyright.

Excerpt From
The Traitor's Hand
Sandy Mitchell
https://books.apple.com/gb/book/the-traitors-hand

Right there, Commissar Cain, who’d served alongside Astartes by this point, describes his bowels spasming. Transhuman Dread by any other name. Saved solely by his exceptional talent as a duellist.

The unnaturalness of a Marine in motion isn’t itself victory. But it’s still something the Guard need to overcome, ideally before the Marine is getting stuck in.

Guard are not superhuman. Guard are not immune to psychology or being scared. Indeed morale is such a weak point the Commissariat exists to prevent routs, via means of summary execution.

Space Marines, in combat, are quite unlike anything you or I have ever seen. Speed, skill, strength, all far in excess of what a human is, or could be capable of. And given their extreme rarity, whist Guard might’ve heard of Marines? Most will never have seen one, let alone fought one.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Right there, Commissar Cain, who’d served alongside Astartes by this point, describes his bowels spasming.

I like to imagine that there's a standing order on new pants for Cain and the Schola where he retired is still receiving shipments well after his death to the point that they've opened a souvenir shop selling Pants of the Liberator

I really love the over the top cliff hangers that Sandy Mitchell imbues Cain the Narrator's writing.