" One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"

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**Andykp**

So it’s more transhuman concern rather than dread.

Point is there are no sources of transhuman dread having the effect you like so much, and plenty where it doesn’t appear at all. No one is saying Marie s aren’t scary but they aren’t scary enough to incapacitate a trained soldier. There’s no evidence to say there is. Sorry that it’s your fave bit of lore but it’s just not a feature of the rules or the background. And thus not really relevant to this discussion.

And that’s not nu uh ing anything, that’s a rational critical analysis of the information present.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Read the quote again.

Until Dyzun ordered 5 rounds rapid? The Guard were stunned simply by his appearance. And Dyzun was only able to issue that order after Cain parried.

As I’ve said. It doesn’t need to be a lasting effect. But when you’ve a tonne of post-human killing machine not bothering to grandstand but instead intent on going through you like a dose of salts? That hesitation counts, and counts for a lot, because it’s that hesitation that gets you killed, makes the Marine’s job a lot easier than fighting someone at least trying to fight back, and let’s them start making a horrific mess for your mates to see.

Note that even when the Guard do fire, again in support of the sheer unnaturalness and cause of Transhuman Dread, the Marine leaps aside, avoiding most of the incoming fire, with the few hits merely scoring his plate.

Much later on, Cain is able to dispatch an already heavily wounded Berseker, yes. But keep in mind what I’ve said about the scenario we’re discussing, and their not necessarily being a rush. The Berserkers here were part of a teleport strike intended to end a Slaaneshi ritual already underway. Hence they showed no restraint, because time didn’t allow a more subtle approach (note I’m not bringing the peculiarities of Bersekers here, as those are peculiarities). That lead to them charging prepared positions in an enclosed facility, because their mission required it. Add more time, or remove all time constraints entirely? You’ll get a different result, which doesn’t necessarily include the Marine getting perished.

**Altruizine**

The only quotation he can come up with literally includes a depiction of someone casually overcoming "transhuman dread"

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

‘Big red thing, five rounds rapid fire!’ Dyzun ordered, remarkably calmly under the circumstances, and the troopers snapped out of their astonishment to comply.

Amazing.

MDG: Do you or do you not understand that a human compelled to fight for their life against other humans could also experience their "bowels spasming?" Do you or do you not understand that basically every combat engagement is an experience of terror? What we are asking you to do is to illustrate how "transhuman dread" is a significant exception from that baseline experience. If it is not a significant exception, it has no bearing on the conversation. Every person in this thread would acknowledge that fighting a Marine would be scarier than fighting another human -- what we dispute is that the degree of difference is irrelevant, especially in a case of 1 vs. 10,000, and therefore bears no serious mention or analysis in the case we have been given to discuss.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

These are notably Veteran Troopers, a composite Regiment comprised of those surviving a Tyranid Invasion.

They’ve faced rebels, Orks and Nids by this point. Yet soon as a single Astartes is attacking? One squad rapidly slaughtered, the others, Veterans every Man Jack Of Them, described as being astonished - only breaking when their CO issues an order.

Had the Berzerker, for narrative reasons, not stood and gloated? They’d had remained astonished when the fighting proper began.

It’s…..it’s as if you’re purposefully, for reasons best known to yourself, just ignoring all context, isn’t it?

**Pyroalchi**

But they do fight eventually.
I might misremember, but when faced with Necrons for the first time in one of the novels (I think it was at the end of "Caves of ice"), a squad of stormtroopers who are described as specifically hardy and unemotional in face of losses (their unit already has lost some friends) meet one (or several?) flayed one and right there reacts in the way you describe for transhuman dread. They are unable to act because they are paralysed by fear.

In none of the Cain Novels at least he describes that level of fear by baseline Troopers when facing (C)SM.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Pyroalchi wrote:
But they do fight eventually.
I might misremember, but when faced with Necrons for the first time in one of the novels (I think it was at the end of "Caves of ice"), a squad of stormtroopers who are described as specifically hardy and unemotional in face of losses (their unit already has lost some friends) meet one (or several?) flayed one and right there reacts in the way you describe for transhuman dread. They are unable to act because they are paralysed by fear.

In none of the Cain Novels at least he describes that level of fear by baseline Troopers when facing (C)SM.

Storm Troopers, but it was specifically the now defunct Pariahs eliciting that response.

But even momentary stupefaction in combat is a death sentence, with again, the horrifying speed and violence of a Marine’s assault damaging morale further still.

**Altruizine**

lol, it gets worse: MDG strategically concludes his quotation before Cain begins taunting the Marine, and getting the better of it with a deliberate tactical gambit.

Here is a fuller excerpt: The Traitor's Hand

Thank you for the reference/source, it's actually a great piece of evidence against the potency of transhuman dread. Your poor reading comprehension has kept you from understanding it, but in future conversations with reasonable people I'll make sure to gesture to this!

What we observe in this encounter is:

- a Marine's size/ferocity/reputation/etc. causes a moment of paralysis
- the moment of paralysis is immediately overcome by training
- the paralyzed party is able to recover so quickly that they envision a strategy to best the Marine, and the party is able to successfully enact it
- bonus: the Marine moves slowly enough to be repeatedly parried by a baseline human

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Cain is far from baseline, or are we purposefully ignoring his long established status as an [i]excellent[/i/ duellist. One who, now I come to think of it, had sparred with an Astartes prior to this? That Cain acknowledges the best he could do was hold it for a few seconds, and had the Marine opened with a different attack, he’d have been dead?

Or that the unit is subject to THD, with only the Marine’s gloating giving the time for the CO to snap out of it?

You’re really not doing too well here, are you?

**DeadliestIdiot**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Storm Troopers, but it was specifically the now defunct Pariahs eliciting that response.

But even momentary stupefaction in combat is a death sentence, with again, the horrifying speed and violence of a Marine’s assault damaging morale further still.

Pour one out for the pariahs...

While I don't have the hang up with transhuman dread that everyone else seems to and I would imagine it could be a death sentence for a squad of guardsmen, is it enough to be a death sentence for even 5 squads of guardsmen? If not, I feel like it's going to be of limited use outside of very specific circumstances (relatively narrow corridors perhaps)

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

All about the force multiplier, and again depends entirely upon deployment and where the combat is taking place.

Watching a Marine handily, rapidly and importantly, messily dispatching your mates is going to affect your morale. Indeed in the book I’ve quoted here, as Cain goes to investigate leading reinforcements, troops fleeing the Marine come past him.

So even if the initial shock subsides? There’s still the matter of the Marine having a one-sided fight, coming for you next. As shown, they’re more than capable of avoiding fire whilst closing the range. That’s another knock to your morale, as there seems to be no stopping him, as even those (from the excerpt) few hits do…..nothing to slow him.

How many of your mates meeting rapid hyper-violent deaths can you stomach before the fight it knocked out of you?

It gets worse in a dense environment, as all you might hear (as is the case in the novel I quoted) is horrific deaths and screams over the Vox, so each squad gets their own first Eyes On moment, where the impact can rinse and repeat. More so if the Marine is launching an ambush, be that dropping from a great height, bursting through a wall or what have you.

**A Town Called Malus**

Nowhere in the quote does it indicate that the CO (who is actually an NCO, a sergeant specifically) was paralysed by fear or gaking themself. Dyzun was described as being calm.

Also, Cain's reaction is not transhuman dread, but just bog standard fear because he knows what the opponent is capable of. His reaction there is basically the same reaction he has with seeing any enemy, because Cain's number one goal in every situation is to continue existing as Cain. Remember, this is a commissar who took a job with an artillery company to try and avoid combat and his first "heroic action" was running away from the enemy which just so happened to lure them into a killzone.

**Altruizine**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Cain is far from baseline, or are we purposefully ignoring his long established status as an [i]excellent[/i/ duellist.

I don't know, I haven't read the series; I simply had a bundle of ebooks sitting on my computer for future reading, and decided to check your work because you're such a dishonest windbag.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
One who, now I come to think of it, had sparred with an Astartes prior to this? That Cain acknowledges the best he could do was hold it for a few seconds, and had the Marine opened with a different attack, he’d have been dead?

And? What does that prove, that a human cannot 1-v-1 a Marine? Cool, no one said they could.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or that the unit is subject to THD, with only the Marine’s gloating giving the time for the CO to snap out of it?

There is no gloating in that excerpt, nor any "time given." Read the words. All of Cain's reactions and decisions happen in seconds. This is not a Bond scenario where an arrogant villain pauses for monologue and gives the hero a planning window.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Surprisingly calm is the wording. Still doesn’t issue the order straight away.

Cain has faced many foes. I don’t recall him describing any other leaving him “paralysed with fear”.

**A Town Called Malus**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Surprisingly calm is the wording. Still doesn’t issue the order straight away.

Cain has faced many foes. I don’t recall him describing any other leaving him “paralysed with fear”.

The berzerker says how many words before the order is given? There is no description of any actual real delay in the excerpt. In fact, Dyzun reacts faster than Cain does.

So is Cain particularly adept and has faced countless enemies and even he was affected? But yet the IG sergeant kept their head more than him?

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Re-reading it, Dyzun was already in position, as it was his aid Cain was going to.

Either way, his squad remained stupefied at the mere sight of the Marine. Had it got stuck in? Too late to give the order to fire. And remember, the taking time to trash talk is purely narrative, rather than reflective of a given tactic or strategy.

**Lord Zarkov**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Surprisingly calm is the wording. Still doesn’t issue the order straight away.

Cain has faced many foes. I don’t recall him describing any other leaving him “paralysed with fear”.

Every single time he’s encountered Necrons.

Cain is justifiably worried when he has to fight a marine, but he practically wets himself at the mere mention of a Necron. And not just the Pariahs in Caves of Ice, but in the multiple other times they show up in his novels.

In that excerpt from Traitors hand the guard are pretty scared, but the Sgt gives the order to engage on reflex, the rest of the fire and in the end less than 30 guardsmen kill the marine.

No one is disputing that a marine will mince a guardsman 1-vs-1 unless they’re exceptionally lucky and skilful.
I don’t think anyone is really disputing that a marine will usually mince a squad or even a few squads at once of guardsmen.

But 10,000 guardsmen is a lot of squads so the odds of a given squad winning doesn’t have to be all that high for it to be nigh impossible for the marine to win. And have people have showed there’s loads of examples in the lore where guardsmen have won. These are treated as rare events yes, but 10,000 guardsmen is plenty of opportunity for a rare event to occur.

If a squad of 10 guardsmen has even a 1% chance of killing a marine, then the chance of the marine surviving all 1,000 squads in our scenario is 4.3x10^-5 - that’s 0.0043%. Which is frankly just not credible.

If the chance of a kill is higher then it becomes even worse for the marine. E.g. if a given squad of guardsmen has as much as a 1 in 10 chance then the marine has a 1.7x10^-46 chance of survival. Which might as well be impossible.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Hence it all depends upon territory, deployment, the specific type of Marine, even the Chapter and specific regiment in question.

Traitors Hand? It’s purely because Cain is able to duel the Marine that Jurgen gets a shot off - not to mention Cain’s presence acting as a morale boost to his troops (his reputation is well founded, however fraudulent he considers it to be). Anyone trying to hold it up as A Typical Example Of How It Would Go is just outright wrong.

**Pyroalchi**

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Every single time he’s encountered Necrons.

Cain is justifiably worried when he has to fight a marine, but he practically wets himself at the mere mention of a Necron. And not just the Pariahs in Caves of Ice, but in the multiple other times they show up in his novels.

I just wanted to write the same. There are lots of instances where even the possibility that there MIGHT be necrons somewhere triggers fear or near panic in Cain. His reaction towards Orks, Nyds, Traitors etc. is much more leveled. The only thing approaching that level of fear is the Slanesh Deamon (Emeli? if I recall correctly). And even there, knowing that Jurgen is a big trump card against demons he acts cooler than with the necrons.

**Lord Zarkov**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hence it all depends upon territory, deployment, the specific type of Marine, even the Chapter and specific regiment in question.

Traitors Hand? It’s purely because Cain is able to duel the Marine that Jurgen gets a shot off - not to mention Cain’s presence acting as a morale boost to his troops (his reputation is well founded, however fraudulent he considers it to be). Anyone trying to hold it up as A Typical Example Of How It Would Go is just outright wrong.

It’s not being held up as a ‘typical example of how it could go’ just an example to show guard winning is a plausible possibility.

And when there’s 1,000 squads of guardsmen the odds don’t have to be all that good for a marine win to be implausible.

For a marine to have a 10% chance of winning the odds of a given squad killing him need to be <0.23%

For a marine to have even a 1% chance of victory the odds of a given squad killing him need to be <0.46%

10,000 guardsmen is an awful lot of people, law of large numbers applies and a given squad of guardsmen don’t need all that great odds for the marine to have an insignificant chance of winning.

**Altruizine**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And remember, the taking time to trash talk is purely narrative, rather than reflective of a given tactic or strategy.

I'm BEGGING you to just read the words.

**Insectum7**

This is so funny to me.

Statement 1:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
All 40K canon is contradictory though. But on the abilities of an Astartes, it’s pretty consistent.

Then this one:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Marines built for endurance not speed? Factually incorrect. The speed varies between authors, from as low as 21kph to 80kph at a flat sprint. And they can maintain that far, far longer than a baseline human.

Oh the consistency!

And then you compare that to the fact that Marines have NEVER had a different movement value than a baseline human in 40K. Eldar are noted at being fast, and they've actually been represented as being fast through the tabletop rules through the editions. Marines? Never.

The 21kph to 80kph statement is the perfect illustration as to why you shouldn't rely on novels as a source. It's written for dramatics.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Altruizine wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And remember, the taking time to trash talk is purely narrative, rather than reflective of a given tactic or strategy.

I'm BEGGING you to just read the words.

How about you quote from the relevant bit? Here, I’ll save you the bother.

“Dyzun.’ I shrugged. ‘I hope you don’t mind me sticking my nose in, but it sounds as though something interesting’s going on.’
‘Glad to see you, sir,’ he said, with every sign of sincerity, and Emperor strike me dead if I’m exaggerating, but the whole lot of them started chanting my name like a battlecry.
‘Cain! Cain! Cain! Cain!’
Maybe it was that which took our opponent off-guard for a moment, mistaking it for the chant of the followers of his own blasphemous god, because he turned his head slowly to look at us, drawing his attention reluctantly from the corpses of second squad which lay all around him. Only a few survivors still stirred, trying feebly to raise weapons or crawl to safety.
‘Emperor on Earth!’ I said, my bowels spasming. The man, if man he still was, was a giant, towering over us all. My months as the Guard liaison to the Reclaimers had left me familiar with the superhuman stature of the Astartes and with a healthy respect for the strength and durability of the armour they wore, but this was no paladin of the Emperor’s will; quite the opposite. His armour was blood red and black, like the uniforms of the cultists still dying in droves around us, and chased with vile designs in burnished orichalcum. He carried a bolt pistol holstered at his belt, but apparently distained to use it. His hands, encased in massive gauntlets, gripped a curious weapon, like a battleaxe, but surrounded with whirling metal teeth like my own trusty chainsword.
‘You swear by the corpse god?’ The thing’s voice was gutteral, from a throat constricted with rage, and so deeply resonant that I felt it reverberate through my very bones. ‘Your skull will grace the throne of the true power!’
‘Big red thing, five rounds rapid fire!’ Dyzun ordered, remarkably calmly under the circumstances, and the troopers snapped out of their astonishment to comply[…]”

Excerpt From
The Traitor's Hand
Sandy Mitchell
https://books.apple.com/gb/book/the-traitors-hand/id440530381
This material may be protected by copyright.

Read the whole bit. Not just the bits you desperately want to misquote-mine.

Caught off guard? Check. Making a comment instead of getting stuck in? Check. Then Dyzun has gathered his wits enough to give the order.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Insectum7 wrote:
This is so funny to me.

Statement 1:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
All 40K canon is contradictory though. But on the abilities of an Astartes, it’s pretty consistent.

Then this one:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Marines built for endurance not speed? Factually incorrect. The speed varies between authors, from as low as 21kph to 80kph at a flat sprint. And they can maintain that far, far longer than a baseline human.

Oh the consistency!

And then you compare that to the fact that Marines have NEVER had a different movement value than a baseline human in 40K. Eldar are noted at being fast, and they've actually been represented as being fast through the tabletop rules through the editions. Marines? Never.

The 21kph to 80kph statement is the perfect illustration as to why you shouldn't rely on novels as a source. It's written for dramatics.

Marines have always been described as being of faster pace, able to maintain it for hours. Well, I say always. At least since 2nd Ed for certain. And yes. It is written for dramatics. No argument there. Funny how that doesn’t apply to “and then this one trooper shot the marine with one las bolt and it killed him in the face and now he’s dead and so that’s what always happens when you fire a las gun at a Marine the Marine dies because that one time it happened and never mind it was in a Guard centric novel where if it hadn’t have worked that one time a chunk of if not all of the main characters would’ve been murdered to death by the Marine but it happened that one time so it happens every time”. Apparently.

**Altruizine**

Nuh-uh.

**Hecaton**

Grotsnik, you've shown yourself throughout this thread to be a two-faced liar, but you still haven't shown that any intimidation caused by a marine in any excerpt you quoted is anything special. You should admit you're wrong and apologize.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Cobblers.

Your chums above are desperately trying to quote mine their way out of evidence of troops being astonished (check it’s synonyms, including stupefied, shock and dismay) and Cain describing himself as being paralysed by fear.

My references and opinion remain intact, and based in the background, not wishful thinking,

**Insectum7**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:
This is so funny to me.

Statement 1:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
All 40K canon is contradictory though. But on the abilities of an Astartes, it’s pretty consistent.

Then this one:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Marines built for endurance not speed? Factually incorrect. The speed varies between authors, from as low as 21kph to 80kph at a flat sprint. And they can maintain that far, far longer than a baseline human.

Oh the consistency!

And then you compare that to the fact that Marines have NEVER had a different movement value than a baseline human in 40K. Eldar are noted at being fast, and they've actually been represented as being fast through the tabletop rules through the editions. Marines? Never.

The 21kph to 80kph statement is the perfect illustration as to why you shouldn't rely on novels as a source. It's written for dramatics.

Marines have always been described as being of faster pace, able to maintain it for hours. Well, I say always. At least since 2nd Ed for certain. And yes. It is written for dramatics. No argument there. Funny how that doesn’t apply to “and then this one trooper shot the marine with one las bolt and it killed him in the face and now he’s dead and so that’s what always happens when you fire a las gun at a Marine the Marine dies because that one time it happened and never mind it was in a Guard centric novel where if it hadn’t have worked that one time a chunk of if not all of the main characters would’ve been murdered to death by the Marine but it happened that one time so it happens every time”. Apparently.

You know why we don't question Lasguns killing a Marine in the face? Because it was backed up by the tabletop for years. Everybody who's played 2nd can remember that time when a Grot or Guardsman or whatever puny trooper killed a Terminator with a lucky shot. It's an example of something which is actually consistent.

Btw, being able to maintain a fast pace is not speed, but endurance. A Marine squad can be operationally faster (as in covering large distances) than a Guardsman squad not because the Marine can sprint faster, but simply because he can keep that pace for longer. And maybe they are a little faster at sprinting than you're average guardsman, sure. They've still never been faster enough to warrant Eldar speed, or Genestealer speed, or even Horse speed, on the tabletop. And certainly not quick enough to avoid being shot at.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Your chums above are desperately trying to quote mine their way out of evidence of troops being astonished (check it’s synonyms, including stupefied, shock and dismay) and Cain describing himself as being paralysed by fear.

Even the quote YOU gave showed even a Marine being caught off guard. So maybe Marines aren't particularly special if Guardsmen can catch Marines themselves off guard, huh?

**Gert**

Hecaton wrote:
Grotsnik, you've shown yourself throughout this thread to be a two-faced liar, but you still haven't shown that any intimidation caused by a marine in any excerpt you quoted is anything special. You should admit you're wrong and apologize.

Good god the level of irony in this post.

**Altruizine**

We've established that transhuman dread "may cause momentary stupefaction, shock, or dismay."

Seems about as potent as the feeling I get when I open a new pot of Citadel paint and notice that it's already dried out.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Insectum7 wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:
This is so funny to me.

Statement 1:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
All 40K canon is contradictory though. But on the abilities of an Astartes, it’s pretty consistent.

Then this one:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Marines built for endurance not speed? Factually incorrect. The speed varies between authors, from as low as 21kph to 80kph at a flat sprint. And they can maintain that far, far longer than a baseline human.

Oh the consistency!

And then you compare that to the fact that Marines have NEVER had a different movement value than a baseline human in 40K. Eldar are noted at being fast, and they've actually been represented as being fast through the tabletop rules through the editions. Marines? Never.

The 21kph to 80kph statement is the perfect illustration as to why you shouldn't rely on novels as a source. It's written for dramatics.

Marines have always been described as being of faster pace, able to maintain it for hours. Well, I say always. At least since 2nd Ed for certain. And yes. It is written for dramatics. No argument there. Funny how that doesn’t apply to “and then this one trooper shot the marine with one las bolt and it killed him in the face and now he’s dead and so that’s what always happens when you fire a las gun at a Marine the Marine dies because that one time it happened and never mind it was in a Guard centric novel where if it hadn’t have worked that one time a chunk of if not all of the main characters would’ve been murdered to death by the Marine but it happened that one time so it happens every time”. Apparently.

You know why we don't question Lasguns killing a Marine in the face? Because it was backed up by the tabletop for years. Everybody who's played 2nd can remember that time when a Grot or Guardsman or whatever puny trooper killed a Terminator with a lucky shot. It's an example of something which is actually consistent.

Btw, being able to maintain a fast pace is not speed, but endurance. A Marine squad can be operationally faster (as in covering large distances) than a Guardsman squad not because the Marine can sprint faster, but simply because he can keep that pace for longer. And maybe they are a little faster at sprinting than you're average guardsman, sure. They've still never been faster enough to warrant Eldar speed, or Genestealer speed, or even Horse speed, on the tabletop. And certainly not quick enough to avoid being shot at.

Yet the background consistently has them as moving faster, with far swifter reactions, than a human. Exactly how much faster is frankly all over the shop. But “faster than a human” remains an established background fact. As ever, you not liking that is irrelevant.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Your chums above are desperately trying to quote mine their way out of evidence of troops being astonished (check it’s synonyms, including stupefied, shock and dismay) and Cain describing himself as being paralysed by fear.

Even the quote YOU gave showed even a Marine being caught off guard. So maybe Marines aren't particularly special if Guardsmen can catch Marines themselves off guard, huh?

**JNAProductions**

Faster reactions used to be represented by Initiative. A Marine was I4, a Guard was I3.
But, you know what they're slower than? A laser. Like that fired from a lasgun.

Grotsnik, what do you think the odds of a Marine's success is? Give us a percent, or at least a range of percents.