Looted wagon datasheets guise, but since everyone just steals them from online, we are putting them in white dwarf now! Nobody will be able to figure out this scanner technology!

Seriously, EA and other bad game companies cram day one dlc down our throats now a days, claming that it allows them to make better products and work on it after the info is shipped off to be burnt to a disc, but everyone knows its just a pathetic cash grab. Now I am probably out of the loop on this, but couldn't this have EASILY been included in the actual book, instead of paying 45 dollars for the codex, then 4 dollars for 3 or 4 more options elsewhere? Also new mek and painboys confirmed.

Considering the cost of Warhammer in general as a hobby, didnt think 4 bucks would be that much of a big deal

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Considering the cost of Warhammer in general as a hobby, didnt think 4 bucks would be that much of a big deal

4 dollar starbucks drinks aren't a big deal. 300 of them a year is. Nickel and diming you for something you should be getting with your purchase is something people before our generations would have never put up with. its an insult. Nickel and dime extra charges that you don't notice now a days are why people cant afford homes anymore. Look at what we pay for now that we dident used to.

TV. TV was with rabbit ears, and commercials paid the studios what they needed to produce and broadcast. Now we pay a company for the privelige of watching already paid for content.
Computers. They weren't commonplace where everyone had one, sometimes 2 or 3 as today. Constant upgrades and fixing.
Phones. The bills were a fraction of what they are now inflated for today, even with paying for long distance. Also planned obsolescence of things like the Iphone, where you simply HAVE to have a new one every 2 years.
Cars engineered to last 10 years or less, when they used to make them so well many classics are still driven today.

Nickel and diming like this has been for the last 25 years THE biggest profit for effort endeavors society has come up with yet.

Don't accept low quality products because something else you can buy later comes along and fixes that.

Incidentally, this doesn't bother me too much as I never used looted wagons to begin with. I felt they were too fragile for what little they did on the table. But, I do get the annoyance here. It should be in the Codex to begin with, not a datasheet in the magazine. It's like what they did with the Dakka Jet (Though in their defense, the jet came out after the dex if I'm not mistaken). Though I gues as i think about it, I am a tiny bit annoyed, since I might actually run wagons if they turn out to be good this edition...but I won't know without the magazine (or until scans hit)

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Considering the cost of Warhammer in general as a hobby, didnt think 4 bucks would be that much of a big deal

It's not whether you can buy something or not. It's about your responsibility as a mature customer. If you buy this just because you can afford it, all companies everywhere will start to milk you for cash wherever they can, to the point that the paper wrapper around your hamburger will cost you extra. If you do not buy into these DLC-style transactions and do not support other dickish moves like dataslates and the like, companies will stop trying it. It's up to you to decide, if you still want decent products, fair cost-to-product ratios and ocasional free stuff or if you want to give companies your hard-earned cash just because you can. Mind you, it's not about not being able to afford something. It's about how you want your financial environment to be.

Regarding opening post: Yup. Scanners, copy maschines, typewriters, paper & pencil have all been lost to the dark age of technology. Praise the omnissiah (GW), holding the only available means of data storage. I give it half a day until first scans appear on 4chan or something.

Edit: I'd buy the thing in sumeran cuneiform script on real clay tablets though.

 Kosake wrote:


Regarding opening post: Yup. Scanners, copy maschines, typewriters, paper & pencil have all been lost to the dark age of technology. Praise the omnissiah (GW), holding the only available means of data storage. I give it half a day until first scans appear on 4chan or something.

My bet's in for a bit before official release.

Well, I used to use looted vehicles a good bit in 2nd and 3rd edition, and I've got a few of them at home. So it's nice to have rules.

I think they skipped on putting them in the codex because they don't want rules for stuff they don't make a model for (except that looted vehicles are literally any GW vehicle model customized for Orks), but there was such an outcry on the Internet that they had to make rules and put them back out there, though by that time the codex was already ready for printing (or shipping), leaving them to stuff the rules into White Dwarf, where they could tell players, "See, here's what you were wanting!" while also making money off of it.

They could have just as easily left them out entirely. Looted Wagons don't have a kit from GW, while other companies make them. They could have easily gone the way of the Spore pod.

And puttin in the 1-2 pages of looted wagon into the codex would likely mean 1-2 pages less of fluff.

This ain't a fair complaint, brother. I just love groaning about GW usually, but I really feel the need to call ya out.

For one thing, $4 for a magazine that contains some supplemental rules is not a bad deal- that's what the old White Dwarf was kinda like. White Dwarf should be a place to put supplemental rules that you don't necessarily need to use in the full codex. Barely anybody uses Looted Wagons (ED: Okay, some people do.), and if you do you just buy the White Dwarf. I don't have any issue with that- I mean, my issue with GW is stuff that takes hundreds or thousands of well-earned dollars and game enjoyment from the masses, not four dollars once. Skip your morning coffee one day and buy the White Dwarf if you really care about looted wagons. Easy peasy.

I agree if GW started arbitrarily trying to shove White Dwarf down our throats it would be bad but this is a one-time thing, and I see no indication that it will last or turn into anything bad.

Did we really need another thread just to complain about this?

It's covered here already:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/585556.page

 Mysterious Pants wrote:
This ain't a fair complaint, brother. I just love groaning about GW usually, but I really feel the need to call ya out.
[b]
Barely anybody uses Looted Wagons,

I use them all the time. I only ever play against Power Armor based armies, so a medium range Pie Plate with AP 3 and instant deff to Space Marine ain't bad.

The issue with WD released rules I'd imagine is getting ahold of them after the next iteration of WD comes out. I've never bought a WD mag, nor needed rules released within them, but this is a potential issue.

That, and no one wants yet another thing to lug around to games.

 Overlord Thraka wrote:

 Mysterious Pants wrote:
This ain't a fair complaint, brother. I just love groaning about GW usually, but I really feel the need to call ya out.
[b]
Barely anybody uses Looted Wagons,

I use them all the time. I only ever play against Power Armor based armies, so a medium range Pie Plate with AP 3 and instant deff to Space Marine ain't bad.

It no longer has the boom gun, but rather gets the killkannon instead. As a trade-off it gets to keep its transport capacity.

Looted wagon pretty much equals looted rhino now, and with the massive point-drop, they actually might make sense to field as transports, especially considering how the new "Don't press dat!" no longer prevents you from disembarking.

In any case, sticking that one page in your codex (assuming it's not in it anyways) hardly is a reason for the amount of whining going on in these forums. A whole lot of you should get their ork licenses revoked.

Okay, now at least I know what the "White Dwarf Exclusive" on the pic was about.

As someone who uses Looted Wagons--used a pair in my last game--I'm actually okay with the idea that the dataslate is in the WD. I've picked up the last three WD's since the content was all Ork, so I don't see a problem with pick up a fourth with rules in it.

And I like WD's with rules in it to be honest. I remember finding an old WD with the Feral Orks codex rules. It was out of date by that point (5th edition had come out), but I still loved the issue for the fluff and the kind of odd rules that I tried to talk my friends into letting me use as a homebrew.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
They could have just as easily left them out entirely. Looted Wagons don't have a kit from GW, while other companies make them. They could have easily gone the way of the Spore pod.

And puttin in the 1-2 pages of looted wagon into the codex would likely mean 1-2 pages less of fluff.

What other companies make looted wagons? I've not seen any yet.

All of them

Orks can loot anything

As I allready posted in the other one:

[img]

My looted wagon IS a looted Rhino, with a big Kannon on top!

And hey, at least it is printed somewhere now. If I cant find the WD I'm sure my FLGS manager will let me photocopy his issue, no problem.

I'd like to see the math hammer on the boom gun to kill cannon swap.

What mathhammer? -1 to strength and -12" to range doesn't really need to be mathhammerd.

The killkannon has always been a bad weapon due to low range, ordnance and mediocre strength. I think 30 points is still too much for that.
The best use for the new looted wagon is probably equipping it with rolla and a skorcha and maybe two big shootas to snap-shot while going full speed ahead. They are pretty much cheap battlewagons, who can either be fielded in small games, or be used in addition to their big cousins.

Datasheets in WD; giving people a reason to actually buy WD.

im more pissed off they keep releasing tidbits of the new ork codex instead of actually giving us the damn dex.

Having the models around in WD editions isnt really that bad, though it is annoying. I have a photocopy of the pages on the dakkajet in my codex so i have the rules but not the WD itself. Much less hassle. Occasionally i get that one guy that goes "Thats a copy not a legitimate paper" but nothing says i cant bring a simplified version of my own content i paid for for my own use.

I'm just amused their editor is so bad as to miss the fact they reprinted 1 Gorkanaut in the box.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I'm just amused their editor is so bad as to miss the fact they reprinted 1 Gorkanaut in the box.

It's a good thing. Buy one looted wagon for 37 points, but instead you get a Gorkanaut. Mistake or brutally cunning?

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I'm just amused their editor is so bad as to miss the fact they reprinted 1 Gorkanaut in the box.

It's a good thing. Buy one looted wagon for 37 points, but instead you get a Gorkanaut. Mistake or brutally cunning?

Only an Ork could start tweaking around a rhino wreck he found and end up creating a Gorkanaut by mistake.

Due to our new rules of 7th edition we do not have to wait for a whole codex to be released, a small datasheet can be published any way GW sees fit and the models can be put to use instantly!

Now there is no excuse not to buy that model, you have rulez!

They are trying to help you spend your money and you look at their means of getting it to you as a further cash grab?

I must also point out this handily avoids the problem of publishing in a codex models they have not made which runs into legal problems when other companies make the models... now they can produce rules for the models as they are released and re-publish as the codex trails along.

I have to admit it is a smarter workaround on their part.
I doubt they would do this but it would also be a great means of trying out rules for a model before release of the "official" codex to avoid bad points/stats making the model unbalanced.

I am still surprised by my optimism, where is that flow chart again on GW rage...

 Mysterious Pants wrote:
This ain't a fair complaint, brother. I just love groaning about GW usually, but I really feel the need to call ya out.

For one thing, $4 for a magazine that contains some supplemental rules is not a bad deal- that's what the old White Dwarf was kinda like. White Dwarf should be a place to put supplemental rules that you don't necessarily need to use in the full codex. Barely anybody uses Looted Wagons (ED: Okay, some people do.), and if you do you just buy the White Dwarf. I don't have any issue with that- I mean, my issue with GW is stuff that takes hundreds or thousands of well-earned dollars and game enjoyment from the masses, not four dollars once. Skip your morning coffee one day and buy the White Dwarf if you really care about looted wagons. Easy peasy.

I agree if GW started arbitrarily trying to shove White Dwarf down our throats it would be bad but this is a one-time thing, and I see no indication that it will last or turn into anything bad.

A few points:

1. I use Looted Wagons when I can because I loved converting them. And I can't use them as the basic model they're meant to be in some cases (i.e. looted Leman Russ or Basilisk) because Orks and all Imperium (even IG, which makes no sense) are "Come the Apocalypse."
2. Back when White Dwarf had extra stuff, it was well after a codex had been out a while. They also included full army lists, and plenty of other useful articles, in a nice sized magazine for $4-$5 a month. The new version is $4 for a very small size that's rushed and has too many errors passing through, and is so cheap to produce that they can literally throw away dozens of copies per GW store each week and it's not a loss for them (as opposed to selling back issues). So we're being charged as much for a tiny weekly magazine as what a packed monthly magazine cost with less stuff in it. Yeah, please don't compare the two.
3. If someone misses getting WD this week because, for example, they're away on drill (I know a guy who has that problem at times), they can't get the WD from their local GW store after that, because of the policy of clearing them off the shelf and tossing them into a dumpster. That means that these WD exclusives are a bigger problem than prior WDs where you had them on the shelf for a month, and could order back issues.

I do expect them to take the rules and toss it into a $4 digital download, though. Costs them nothing to do that (the miniscule cost of a few minutes of some employee's salary), so it's pure profits. Of course, if they don't bother to make it something other than iBook version, that's useless to a lot of folks. (I was going to try to snag the rules for the Ork flyers, since the book they were in is no longer available, but now they're only available via a product for iPads, and I have a Kindle.)

They really have gone the day one DLC route... my mind is blown. It's bad enough in video games where the DLC is merged into the product, but here where you need to take an extra book for every extra piece of the codex that was cut out to be sold to you piecemeal is ridiculously anti-customer. "Expansions" worked on after the codex, that have sufficient content to warrant the effort would be fine, this is not that.

GG GW, GG.

 n0t_u wrote:
Datasheets in WD; giving people a reason to actually buy WD.

That's exactly the problem. If that's the only reason you are buying that white dwarf, because you don't think the rest of it is enough value to justify the 4 dollar price tag (which I definatley don't, since its garbage compared to its glory days) then your codex has now essentially become 49.50+4.00+whatever else they omitted for sales later even if its already set in stone at the office. Its no different than day one DLC video game companies cheat you with when it could have been on the damn disc when you got it. We aren't talking about content thought of years later, this is a blatant cash grab.

 Orock wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Datasheets in WD; giving people a reason to actually buy WD.

That's exactly the problem. If that's the only reason you are buying that white dwarf, because you don't think the rest of it is enough value to justify the 4 dollar price tag (which I definatley don't, since its garbage compared to its glory days) then your codex has now essentially become 49.50+4.00+whatever else they omitted for sales later even if its already set in stone at the office. Its no different than day one DLC video game companies cheat you with when it could have been on the damn disc when you got it. We aren't talking about content thought of years later, this is a blatant cash grab.

So don't buy it. Wait a couple of days, it'll be all over the net.

 loki old fart wrote:

 Orock wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Datasheets in WD; giving people a reason to actually buy WD.

That's exactly the problem. If that's the only reason you are buying that white dwarf, because you don't think the rest of it is enough value to justify the 4 dollar price tag (which I definatley don't, since its garbage compared to its glory days) then your codex has now essentially become 49.50+4.00+whatever else they omitted for sales later even if its already set in stone at the office. Its no different than day one DLC video game companies cheat you with when it could have been on the damn disc when you got it. We aren't talking about content thought of years later, this is a blatant cash grab.

So don't buy it. Wait a couple of days, it'll be all over the net.

That's the thing that makes this even worse. GW has to know these dataslates are gotten by 90 precent of the people illegally because they either think its stupid to pay for, or don't want to pay for them. So they feel that the 1 in 10 that do buy it legally, if even that high, is enough profit to justify making the customers who think this kind of thing should be in the codex for free, and not be a cash grab, angry.

Its like selling a printer, and giving them a cartridge for every ink but blue. Sure you can do everything in black and white, but the option for color is there for a reason. So now you have to buy blue. And yeah sure, models aren't replaced as often as ink is (mostly new better looking models replace old ones) but taking every cheap shot at customers like this that they possibly can just loses them any good will.

Vote with your wallet, that's it. Every single WD that gets sold is the equivalent to saying "Good, I want more of that please!". If you don't want to buy it, there may certainly be other means to do so.

While I not a fan of DLC practices many companies in the video game industry have been doing I don't feel GW giving us an extra incentive to actually buy the White Dwarf is so bad. For a long time people been asking for content in the White Dwarf magazine and now we get something new every week including early access to rules for units etc. Though I hope they don't make the same mistake they did with the Sisters 5th update.

 Orock wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Considering the cost of Warhammer in general as a hobby, didnt think 4 bucks would be that much of a big deal

4 dollar starbucks drinks aren't a big deal. 300 of them a year is. Nickel and diming you for something you should be getting with your purchase is something people before our generations would have never put up with. its an insult. Nickel and dime extra charges that you don't notice now a days are why people cant afford homes anymore. Look at what we pay for now that we dident used to.

TV. TV was with rabbit ears, and commercials paid the studios what they needed to produce and broadcast. Now we pay a company for the privelige of watching already paid for content.
Computers. They weren't commonplace where everyone had one, sometimes 2 or 3 as today. Constant upgrades and fixing.
Phones. The bills were a fraction of what they are now inflated for today, even with paying for long distance. Also planned obsolescence of things like the Iphone, where you simply HAVE to have a new one every 2 years.
Cars engineered to last 10 years or less, when they used to make them so well many classics are still driven today.

Nickel and diming like this has been for the last 25 years THE biggest profit for effort endeavors society has come up with yet.

Don't accept low quality products because something else you can buy later comes along and fixes that.

There are so many things factually wrong with this I don't even know where to begin.

So....what does EA have to do with all this?

 Wilytank wrote:
So....what does EA have to do with all this?

There was this big "Day One DLC" thing with EA.
Basically they are proud of how it worked, that you could buy the game for 60 dollar and could also buy DLC for it, making the total cost for the game around 80.
Here is the quote:

"The other key thing is selling digital content on the day of launch...When we sold Mass Effect 3 back in March, we saw a 40 percent attach rate that first week to DLC at GameStop in the United States. Not only are you selling a $60 game...you're selling $20 DLC, so the sale becomes $80," Moore said.

For the company it might be a smart idea.
But it also embodies everything people hate about EA.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Vote with your wallet, that's it. Every single WD that gets sold is the equivalent to saying "Good, I want more of that please!". If you don't want to buy it, there may certainly be other means to do so.

The problem is that people have their Looted Wagons.
They voted with their money, they told GW they loved the model and the idea!
So they decided to cash in on some extra.

Kangodo wrote:
]
The problem is that people have their Looted Wagons.
They voted with their money, they told GW they loved the model and the idea!
So they decided to cash in on some extra.

Looted Wagons don't have a mode (well, they used to iirc...back...in the past...) so for GW, it's not possible to see how many people actually play them. Furthermore, I don't see what's stopping a Looted Wagon player from obtaining the rules outside the WD.

Also: how could OP miss out on a "Thanks, Obama!" joke?

Is the Ork Codex out yet?

I have to say, it really seems that GW cannot win with some people.

For the last 2-3 years, people have griped (and rightfully so) how WD was nothing more than an advertisment with no real content, and pined for the days when WD actually had stuff like rules and scenarios.

Now GW has brought back special scenarios and unit rules to WD, and people now gripe that its a "moneygrab".

I think there is a difference between having a scenario or extra rules for a sub faction in a WD , and having to buy a WD to use the main transport type for your army. It would be bad , if to use let say a chimera you would have to buy a WD. There wouldn't be enough WD for all people that play AM .

Makumba wrote:
I think there is a difference between having a scenario or extra rules for a sub faction in a WD , and having to buy a WD to use the main transport type for your army. It would be bad , if to use let say a chimera you would have to buy a WD. There wouldn't be enough WD for all people that play AM .

I always thought trukks and battlewagons were the main transports for Orks. Could be worse, they could remove a vehicle from a codex that had a forgeworld model for it and force you to buy the extremely expensive IA book in order to continue using it....

Makumba wrote:
I think there is a difference between having a scenario or extra rules for a sub faction in a WD , and having to buy a WD to use the main transport type for your army. It would be bad , if to use let say a chimera you would have to buy a WD. There wouldn't be enough WD for all people that play AM .

I think you're wrong. Wagons aren't really the 'main transport' nor are they among the most used units in Orks Codex thus comparing it to the only transport IG had for years is.. silly. Especially that it has no model. It's more like putting the Taurox in a dataslate. Some people care about it, some don't, whoever wants it has a chance to get it.

Overall I agree strongly with ClassicCarraway as he got it right. That's the biggest issue with Dakka nowadays. One begins to wonder why GW even bothers to occasionally do something right, seeing that the community will -always- find an excuse to bash it. People whined for years that WD had no meaningful content anymore and, as Carraway said, now it gets some and they instead whine about it actually having content? Sure, they could've folded it into the Codex, but they didn't. They also could've folded supplements' materials into the Codexes. But they didn't do that either. You don't like it - don't buy it or pirate it to show GW how despicable their practices are.

I, for one, am happy to see WD get some proper content.

via an anonymous source on Faeit 212
The wagon isn't in the codex.
It is white dwarf exclusive, and will be available as digital download for $1-2.

It's not a cash grab by selling "incomplete" books.
Truth is that the book finished without the codex entry, because it did not have a model. Due to public opinion, it was brought back in a last minute decision about a month ago.You'll even note that there is a typo in the unit entry in this week's White Dwarf, where the unit entry was copy/pasted over the Gorkonaut entry.

There is no intention of making a looted-wagon conversion kit at this time, though it would be cool if it could then combo with Lemon Russ or Rhinos, etc, it simply is not intended.

People should be happy that they're heard, and the rules are going to be in white dwarf allowing for a more organic game with solutions to issues outside of 2+ years between codicies.

The reality is that not everyone in the internet-community will ever be happy.

I don't understand what the problem is. People like looted wagons, so they released rules for looted wagons. How is this a bad thing? Would it be preferable if they had just eliminated the looted wagon altogether?

Given the new policy of keeping anything for which they don't produce a model out of the codices for legal reasons, this seems to be the best solution.

office_waaagh wrote:
I don't understand what the problem is. People like looted wagons, so they released rules for looted wagons. How is this a bad thing? Would it be preferable if they had just eliminated the looted wagon altogether?

It's a bad thing because it's not in the codex which is released at the same time, which would have taken an additional page of the codex and been a much better product for the players by being like this.

Given the new policy of keeping anything for which they don't produce a model out of the codices for legal reasons, this seems to be the best solution.

Better for GW who gets to charge more money for something that should have been in the codex. bad for the players who are expected to pay more for it. A huge aspect of the hobby is kitbashing. There being no official model for it currently doesn't mean players can't create their own. It's a very anti-customer move in a long line of anti-customer moves.

Next up, codex Rhino!

 MWHistorian wrote:
Next up, codex Rhino!

No, this is far more like "Codex Mycetic Spore"- rules for a unit without an official model that would be removed from the codex regardless.

And people bought it to use as a transport? I thought they bought it for the boomgun, if all the whining about no more boomgun (even though the killkannon has dropped to half price) is anything to go by.

 Klerych wrote:


I think you're wrong. Wagons aren't really the 'main transport' nor are they among the most used units in Orks Codex thus comparing it to the only transport IG had for years is.. silly. Especially that it has no model. It's more like putting the Taurox in a dataslate. Some people care about it, some don't, whoever wants it has a chance to get it.

Overall I agree strongly with ClassicCarraway as he got it right. That's the biggest issue with Dakka nowadays. One begins to wonder why GW even bothers to occasionally do something right, seeing that the community will -always- find an excuse to bash it. People whined for years that WD had no meaningful content anymore and, as Carraway said, now it gets some and they instead whine about it actually having content? Sure, they could've folded it into the Codex, but they didn't. They also could've folded supplements' materials into the Codexes. But they didn't do that either. You don't like it - don't buy it or pirate it to show GW how despicable their practices are.

I, for one, am happy to see WD get some proper content.

have you seen the things stats and cost ? If that ain't the main way to transport stuff around , then I don't know what is

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
No, this is far more like "Codex Mycetic Spore"- rules for a unit without an official model that would be removed from the codex regardless.

It being removed from the codex should *not* be a given. Modeling is a huge part of the hobby - inclusion of rules for models you can kitbash is a good thing for the players.

Makumba wrote:

 Klerych wrote:


I think you're wrong. Wagons aren't really the 'main transport' nor are they among the most used units in Orks Codex thus comparing it to the only transport IG had for years is.. silly. Especially that it has no model. It's more like putting the Taurox in a dataslate. Some people care about it, some don't, whoever wants it has a chance to get it.

Overall I agree strongly with ClassicCarraway as he got it right. That's the biggest issue with Dakka nowadays. One begins to wonder why GW even bothers to occasionally do something right, seeing that the community will -always- find an excuse to bash it. People whined for years that WD had no meaningful content anymore and, as Carraway said, now it gets some and they instead whine about it actually having content? Sure, they could've folded it into the Codex, but they didn't. They also could've folded supplements' materials into the Codexes. But they didn't do that either. You don't like it - don't buy it or pirate it to show GW how despicable their practices are.

I, for one, am happy to see WD get some proper content.

have you seen the things stats and cost ? If that ain't the main way to transport stuff around , then I don't know what is

Battlewagon and Trukks?

It's still a good transport, a role it was pretty much useless at before.

I would have much preferred to have the looted wagon rules in the codex but I'm not particularly pissed off about them being White Dwarf only and I'll probably pick up a copy (my first since the one with the dakkajet rules).
On balance, I'd have rather kept the overpriced boomgun instead of the cheaper killkanon (assuming its rules stay the same). The cheap deffrollas and rokkits might have encouraged me to spam them but I think there'll be too much competition for the heavy slots. Even if I'm running double FOC, I suspect I'll be going for several batteries of mekguns with either battlewagons or walkers taking up the rest of the slots. Of course, the new codex might change all that.
The ability to take them in squadrons and maybe front av12 would have been great but never mind.

 mutantrocker wrote:
I would have much preferred to have the looted wagon rules in the codex but I'm not particularly pissed off about them being White Dwarf only and I'll probably pick up a copy (my first since the one with the dakkajet rules).

Mission accomplished ; /

It's a matter of economics at this point. I simply cannot keep up with their update schedule and what I want to buy. The worst is not knowing what I should buy because they are not done tossing all this stuff at us. Aside from a White Dwarf which I refuse to purchase (my only obvious irrational purchasing denial), everything requires thought about investing due to monetary prices being charged.

Once the dust settles on this release, I can then make an educated decision on what models I want to buy.

 Orock wrote:
Looted wagon datasheets guise, but since everyone just steals them from online, we are putting them in white dwarf now! Nobody will be able to figure out this scanner technology!

Seriously, EA and other bad game companies cram day one dlc down our throats now a days, claming that it allows them to make better products and work on it after the info is shipped off to be burnt to a disc, but everyone knows its just a pathetic cash grab. Now I am probably out of the loop on this, but couldn't this have EASILY been included in the actual book, instead of paying 45 dollars for the codex, then 4 dollars for 3 or 4 more options elsewhere? Also new mek and painboys confirmed.

I see the above as a complete over-reaction. White Dwarf always used to have miniature rules in it - it was one of the things that made it useful and interesting. The entirety of the new Eldar rules (when aspects first appeared and the Avatar was created) were introduced in a White Dwarf (#127 iirc) and we played with them from that White Dwarf for a long time. What are you suggesting? That GW shouldn't throw out new rules and extras as they go along? I think that would be a loss to the game.

Or that such thing should only be available as downloadable dataslates. IF GW have done this in White Dwarf rather than in digital form because of piracy (which is not known), then the correct people to blame would be pirates. You don't blame a company for trying to protect its property from people ripping it off, you blame the people provoking that response.

And DLC can be a good thing. It can mean more content becomes financially viable and so exists for those that want it.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I have to say, it really seems that GW cannot win with some people.

For the last 2-3 years, people have griped (and rightfully so) how WD was nothing more than an advertisment with no real content, and pined for the days when WD actually had stuff like rules and scenarios.

Now GW has brought back special scenarios and unit rules to WD, and people now gripe that its a "moneygrab".

It's a matter of perception and timing. Back when WD had gaming content regularly, which was 3rd to early 4th edition, it was fun to get a tweak to one of your units outside of the normal codex cycle. Or the new rules would fix a balance issue (crux terminatus saves, for example).

Separate wagon rules aren't either. It seems that they're separate because they want codexes to only have units with models (hence no medusa, collosus, or Sgt. Bastonne in the new AM/IG book), yet they want gamers to have access to rules for the models without buying a forgeworld IA book. That's actually a supportable decision, given how they've been pretty consistent in operating that way.

What I think rankles people is the idea that because of some design ideology, they have to pay more for content that could be free. GW used to publish rules like that in WD, and then post a .pdf of them after a month or so. Gave them a chance to make money, but kept the rules available.

 knas ser wrote:
What are you suggesting? That GW shouldn't throw out new rules and extras as they go along? I think that would be a loss to the game.

As they go along? Sure! The same fething day (basically) as the codex is released? Hell no. The unit was in the previous rulebook but they cut it from the new rulebook purely so they could sell it for an extra $4 at the same time the new codex is launched.

It's much more likely that they cut it from the codex because it didn't have a model and then realized from the huge outcry when the rumor surfaced that they had taken away something that people actually wanted while selling more models.

So someone called WD, they pulled an all-nighter to photshop a looted wagon page into the Gorkanaut layout and hurried it out the door while completely forgetting to both proofread and that they had promised to talk about weirdboyz in the last issue.

Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's much more likely that they cut it from the codex because it didn't have a model and then realized from the huge outcry when the rumor surfaced that they had taken away something that people actually wanted while selling more models.

So someone called WD, they pulled an all-nighter to photshop a looted wagon page into the Gorkanaut layout and hurried it out the door while completely forgetting to both proofread and that they had promised to talk about weirdboyz in the last issue.

Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice.

Much as your sig still drives me crazy ( ), I really agree with this. There's plenty of criticism of GW from me elsewhere on these boards. In this instance, I don't think it's reasonable to assume conspiracy on GW here. People have been complaining about lack of content in White Dwarf for ages. They add some and they're condemned. Sometimes you really can't win! (And I don't just mean when you're a CSM player. )

Removal of content from a codex to put it in white dwarf is not what people asking for more in white dwarf wanted I imagine. That is literally what happened - it was removed from the codex and then sold separately in white dwarf. Creation of new content to spice up armies or gameplay mid-cycle would be great.

Never assume stupidity when there's a proven track record of "malice".

Yeah, you can't just turn philosophical principles around.

Otherwise I'd have to assume that your only reason to post here is malice.

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, you can't just turn philosophical principles around.

Otherwise I'd have to assume that your only reason to post here is malice.

You haven't heard the extension of Hanlon's Razor before then?

Don't assume malice when stupidity is an adequate explanation. At least, not the first time.

 Yonan wrote:

Never assume stupidity when there's a proven track record of "malice".

Even organizations with a track record malice can still be stupid.

There's nothing wrong with assuming that GW is going to screw it's fanbase. That's been it's pirmary business strategy since hte LotR bubble burst. But it's a rebuttable presumption, and given that there's a reasonably consistent trend to include only citadel models in the codex (save the Vendetta, oddly), I think it's a reach to see this as malicious. Particularly given how rare looted wagons were.

Even if it were malicious, it was stupidly so. I mean, how many people really need rules for looted wagons?

 Yonan wrote:
That is literally what happened - it was removed from the codex and then sold separately in white dwarf.

Was it? It seems unlikely they removed it from the codex and then re-did the layout to exclude it. Even that counter-argument aside, what is the evidence that they did? And what is the evidence that this would be their reason rather than something like "we don't actually make a model for this" or "this is taking us over our page count and we want to get something else in, instead" and so forth.

But first and foremost, what is the evidence that it was removed from the codex? You cannot progress further along this path of argument without any.

 Yonan wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, you can't just turn philosophical principles around.

Otherwise I'd have to assume that your only reason to post here is malice.

You haven't heard the extension of Hanlon's Razor before then?

Don't assume malice when stupidity is an adequate explanation. At least, not the first time.

Apparently no one else has heard of that particular one, at least no one that could have been found in a quick research on the web.

In either case, can you prove malice in any of of GW's decisions? I highly doubt it.

My only complaint is the difficulty in getting the issue after the release week. official rules should always be available.

also if you have to mail order a single issue its SUPER expensive

 Jidmah wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, you can't just turn philosophical principles around.

Otherwise I'd have to assume that your only reason to post here is malice.

You haven't heard the extension of Hanlon's Razor before then?

Don't assume malice when stupidity is an adequate explanation. At least, not the first time.

Apparently no one else has heard of that particular one, at least no one that could have been found in a quick research on the web.

In either case, can you prove malice in any of of GW's decisions? I highly doubt it.

Talk to anyone is upper management and the malice in their voice over vets and the online community is tangible.

Oh and then there is this:

This does not prove that reducing stores to one person was out of malicious intent. It just proves that he fails as person because he insults people rather than explaining his "great concept" to them.

 Polonius wrote:
Even if it were malicious, it was stupidly so. I mean, how many people really need rules for looted wagons?

Oh I'm not denying it was stupid too - more veterans are falling by the day, this is just another in a long line of moves that are harming long term profit in the quest for short term profit. But there was definite intent behind the action, ergo "malicious". GW started with the copying of "DLC" with the release of lots of overpriced for the quantity of product dataslates and mini-dexes. This looted wagon is an extension of that, by selling it on day one after they saw how well it worked in the video games industry and decided they wanted a piece of the pie. It's already been said in this thread by at least one Ork player - "I don't buy white dwarf, but I'll buy this one for the rules."

Not sure how many people need the rules for looted wagons - I'm still sore that they removed the artillery from IG so I may be projecting here ; p Still expecting it to be added back in like this.

 Jidmah wrote:
Apparently no one else has heard of that particular one, at least no one that could have been found in a quick research on the web.

Strange since to ensure I got it exactly right, I *copied it* from the first google search result. It's a similar concept to "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." You can write off the first time it happens as stupidity. Not the 20th time.
---
edit: The only reason we're saying "malice" here is because of the whole malice/stupidity reference. It's not malice, which is why I keep " " ing it. It's codl hearted business logic that has pure profit as the motive, not creating a good product for your customers. It is also stupid as it is only short term profit at the expense of long term.

 Ravenous D wrote:

Talk to anyone is upper management and the malice in their voice over vets and the online community is tangible.

Is that "upper management" in general? Because some of us here are upper management (or skimming it, at least). Or is this just the upper management of GW? In which case, who did you talk to?

 Jidmah wrote:
This does not prove that reducing stores to one person was out of malicious intent. It just proves that he fails as person because he insults people rather than explaining his "great concept" to them.

Okay.

How about stopping indies from selling across borders? Or selling online at all? Completely cutting off areas from getting warhammer at a decent price. Then turning around and saying they were surprised the independent stores didn't do as well that year.

How about saying that switching to resin costs them 1/10th the cost of pewter then jacking the prices up on failcast by up to 50%? Then claim that the extra cost was to pay for the machines and quality control on something that had a 66% failure rating for the first year. Then release liquid green stuff with the tag line "To fix the holes and bubbles", then as returns were getting drastic pushed a company policy to try and sell liquid green stuff and dissuade the customer from returning it?

Or suing no name authors over "space marine" or claiming they own greek letters and roman numerals?

How about abandoning an edition 23 months in instead of making an FAQ only to release what is basically the exact same product.


This is corporate buggery at its finest, I consider that malice.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 knas ser wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

Talk to anyone is upper management and the malice in their voice over vets and the online community is tangible.

Is that "upper management" in general? Because some of us here are upper management (or skimming it, at least). Or is this just the upper management of GW? In which case, who did you talk to?

Upper management in GW. I used to work for the company and still have friends all over in the company and the stories I hear and the things I see, and what I've personally experienced just makes me shake my head. Its a mix of zealous pride and ignorance, but logic and treating the customer respectfully is not there, GW would rather burn itself to the ground then admit fault and change.

 Yonan wrote:
edit: The only reason we're saying "malice" here is because of the whole malice/stupidity reference. It's not malice, which is why I keep " " ing it. It's codl hearted business logic that has pure profit as the motive, not creating a good product for your customers. It is also stupid as it is only short term profit at the expense of long term.

My point exactly. Just because they are ruining the game and, in turn, their business, doesn't mean that they are doing it on purpose. Out of arrogance, idiocy and blindness, they are stubbornly doing what they think is the right thing to do. Anything that can't be directly contributed to greed (like price-hikes or repackaging boxes to contain half the models at half the price) shouldn't be contributed to it.
It is very likely that they axed the looted wagon in their blind frenzy over their lost lawsuit, and then later realized that 90% of the looted wagons out there are actually mostly made up of models they are selling, rather than some third party stuff. At that time the codex war probably already closed and done, so they decided to give it to us anyways, hoping to keep selling eldar, IG, tau and SM vehicles to ork players for looting.

Sounds much more convincing than the master plan of selling $5 white dwarfs, does it?

They're like made-for-tv-movie corporate villains, they're malicious and blundering at the same time.

Makumba wrote:


have you seen the things stats and cost ? If that ain't the main way to transport stuff around , then I don't know what is

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Ork-Trukk

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Ork-Battlewagon

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I have to say, it really seems that GW cannot win with some people.

For the last 2-3 years, people have griped (and rightfully so) how WD was nothing more than an advertisment with no real content, and pined for the days when WD actually had stuff like rules and scenarios.

Now GW has brought back special scenarios and unit rules to WD, and people now gripe that its a "moneygrab".

Well, these are the first rules for WD, and they're hastily thrown in because GW realized people were VERY pissed off that models they had were being knocked out of the game (AGAIN... see Madboyz, Boarboyz, old Nob bikers, Squig Katapults, Pulsa Rokkits, etc., etc., etc.). The rules that they're putting out before the codex that will have them are not something to add value to WD for the consumer. They're there to test a new marketing model, whereby they release new units before the codex with rules in WD, so if people want to use these models they're selling while waiting another month (or more... WTF!) for the codex, they have to buy a magazine that is literally way overpriced. (There's no way you can convince me something isn't a ripoff price point when the company considers it a better idea to throw away dozens of them per location PER WEEK than offer them as back issues or find some way to recycle them.)

What I hope they get from that, however, is that people buy the models to play the games, they aren't just buying models because they're pretty (I know there's some exceptions). In my case, I picked up the last WD to use the rules from it, while I have no intention of buying the overpriced Mek Guns. The guns might look nice, but I can think of a lot better uses for that money.

It's already all over the net. It's a Looted Wagon from the last codex, which is basically just an open topped Rhino that costs 37 points.

It's a shame that GW is putting rules in WD only for them to be essentially day one DLC. It's so close yet so far, really. That being said, I don't see them doing this for anything they're actually releasing as a kit, unless it's a kit that comes out outside the codex release window. The pictures in the WD of the wagon are just a Leman Russ kitbashed with a Battlewagon.

No Ork player in their right mind would ever buy a Looted Wagon kit. Anyone who says they would is missing the point.

 Wilytank wrote:
No Ork player in their right mind would ever buy a Looted Wagon kit. Anyone who says they would is missing the point.

BUT if you throw a bunch of accessory sprues from various Ork kits (random ones at that) and it would be EPIC!

 Sigvatr wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
]
The problem is that people have their Looted Wagons.
They voted with their money, they told GW they loved the model and the idea!
So they decided to cash in on some extra.

Looted Wagons don't have a mode (well, they used to iirc...back...in the past...) so for GW, it's not possible to see how many people actually play them. Furthermore, I don't see what's stopping a Looted Wagon player from obtaining the rules outside the WD.

Also: how could OP miss out on a "Thanks, Obama!" joke?

There are looted wagon models, everyone else's vehicles. There has never been a model specifically called a "looted wagon"

The subject of this thread is a non complete issue, in my polite opinion, it's nothing more than overblown whining to the extreme.

Rules in white dwarf like this have been around before the internet. It's not DLC.

Rule #1. People will whine about GW no matter what they do.

 44Ronin wrote:
The subject of this thread is a non complete issue, in my polite opinion, it's nothing more than overblown whining to the extreme.

Rules in white dwarf like this have been around before the internet. It's not DLC.

Rule #1. People will whine about GW no matter what they do.

Considering they took it out of the actual codex to put in there, it pretty much counts as day one DLC, think of it as Disc locked DLC.

No, it's something they probably took out of the codex six-ish months ago then realized how much it would be missed so put it in WD a few weeks ago. There is only so much they can fit in the codex and for some reason looted wagons didn't make the cut. They could just have left it, but instead decided to put it in WD (And shortly available for a nominal amount as an ebook apparently).

 Steve steveson wrote:
No, it's something they probably took out of the codex six-ish months ago then realized how much it would be missed so put it in WD a few weeks ago. There is only so much they can fit in the codex and for some reason looted wagons didn't make the cut. They could just have left it, but instead decided to put it in WD (And shortly available for a nominal amount as an ebook apparently).

I'm sorry, what? That doesn't make any sense considering it's at max, two pages.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
No, it's something they probably took out of the codex six-ish months ago then realized how much it would be missed so put it in WD a few weeks ago. There is only so much they can fit in the codex and for some reason looted wagons didn't make the cut. They could just have left it, but instead decided to put it in WD (And shortly available for a nominal amount as an ebook apparently).

I'm sorry, what? That doesn't make any sense considering it's at max, two pages.

It's something that was removed to help sell the morkanaut and heavy guns. orky transport with boomgun.
They only put it back due too the outcry on the forums.

GW reading forums, or caring what their players think? You're a funny man!

 Yonan wrote:
GW reading forums, or caring what their players think? You're a funny man!

When enough people say I'm quitting or I won't be needing to buy that kit then. They listen, unless they think that the change will bring more sales than it loses.

They notice sales dropping and increase prices to counteract it (I half jest on the latter). There's every evidence that they don't listen to customers by the systematic shutting down of communication methods with them online and the extreme length of time for easy and oft discussed problems to get fixed, if ever.

First they came for the Tyranids, now they come for the Orks. Makes you think, who will GW's next victims be?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
First they came for the Tyranids, now they come for the Orks. Makes you think, who will GW's next victims be?

OY I,m the doom n gloom merchant here.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
First they came for the Tyranids, now they come for the Orks. Makes you think, who will GW's next victims be?

They cut a bunch out of the IG 'dex too : ( I can't wait for it all to be put back up for sale piecemeal!

 PrinceRaven wrote:
First they came for the Tyranids, now they come for the Orks. Makes you think, who will GW's next victims be?

Probably a good idea at this point to laminate all current FAQs for codices that have not yet gotten a hard-back codex.

The current Ork codex, as an example, is now totally compatible with 7th with the new FAQs, and obivously the newer codexo will be too. So you'd be able to pick which version you like best, assuming your opponent doesn't mind.

On the bright side, Orks can at least still field Looted Wagons, we haven't seen hide nor tentacle of Ymgarl Genestealers, Mycetic Spores, the Parasite of Mortex or the Doom of Malan'tai. Except, of course, for the fluff entries of them all they kept in the Codex to taunt Tyranids players.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
No, it's something they probably took out of the codex six-ish months ago then realized how much it would be missed so put it in WD a few weeks ago. There is only so much they can fit in the codex and for some reason looted wagons didn't make the cut. They could just have left it, but instead decided to put it in WD (And shortly available for a nominal amount as an ebook apparently).

I'm sorry, what? That doesn't make any sense considering it's at max, two pages.

As I have said elsewhere, you have a choice between putting in 16 more pages or dropping something else. It's not simply a matter of "paste in another page boys!". There will always be choices about what does and what does not make the cut in any book. Some of those are physical limits, some are design choices on what you want to put within those physical limits. I would guess some time a long time back (probably when making the first hard back codex) it was decided that every codex will have X% of fluff, Y% rules and Z% art, with a certain number of pages. There will be some leeway on those numbers, but the editors have limits they have to work within. Looted wagons, rightly or wrongly, didn't make the cut within those numbers for whatever reason.

If the codexes were all the same size that argument might hold weight - but they're not. I have 2 of the new hardback codexes, SM and CSM. The SM book is significantly larger than the CSM book - 170 pages to 100. If there were strict limits this would not be the case, there is ample leeway for more or less content depending on what they choose to do.

However, the publisher they use does everything in 16s/ So 2 pages more c an mean 14 pages on top of the 2 are needed. That costs.

My sources suggested it was part of the "no model no entry" policy, but hadnt realised the backlash this would cause. Which means, of course, that they get spat on by the internet, as ever.

Which apparently means if you want mycetic spores, shout louder. However given theyre generally NOT made from GW kits, and most looted wagons I've seen ARE, then youre going to struggle there

In summary - not "day one DLC", and please tone down the ridiculous hyperbole; GW do enough bad stuff that criticising them for actually doing something player friendly (like when people critiscised about the 3 book rulebook set, complaining the A5 / standalone A4 wasnt available) gets tiresome.

What bothers me the most about this-

Was the Looted Wagon not even considered for the new Ork Codex, or was it an afterthought? Did it get cut for space limitations, or was the plan from the beginning to include it in White Dwarf? GW has Dataslates for all kinds of "crap" now. Want to know everything about a Bolter? Buy the $5 Bolter eBook. Want to know something about Lucious the Eternal? Buy the $5 eBook. I was astonished to find over 71 such eBooks on the GW website. Check it out here if you don't believe me. I'm very surprised that it didn't end up as an eBook. Adding it to White Dwarf fuels the conspiracy that it was done to promote more sales of White Dwarf. That doesn't add up as it's far, far cheaper and easier to make an eBook then get the Looted Wagon into White Dwarf. The production cost of an eBook is NOTHING compared to a magazine, and it has a far larger profit margin. And GW loves those profit margins. This also seems to go against the latest philosophy in the wake of the Chapter House court ruling about making rules for a non-existent model. Will there be an "official" GW Ork Looted Wagon kit soon?

Adding the Looted Wagon to White Dwarf just doesn't make any sense.

edit I am VERY HAPPY that GW did add the Looted Wagon back into the game. Rereading my post seems to make me come off as ungrateful. I can also HOPE that we see more of this kind of thing in the future. In White Dwarf, as an eBook, or maybe like in the old 3rd/4th edition Chapter Approved series, doesn't mater the medium so much. Just to see the new/old content added to armies.

One of the reasons why all my veteran friends said they stopped buying White Dwarf is because "it used to actually have rules".

So is the issue here primarily with the timing of these Looted Wagon rules, or do most people not want any rules in White Dwarf?

GW wanting to prop up sales for white dwarf seems the obvious reason for doing it there rather than in it's own dataslate. It could be the hope that by getting people to try the magazine, they'll keep buying it, so rather than a one-off purchase, it'll be an income stream for a long time to come. GW still doesn't realize that the free resources on the internet are so much better than the content in WD that it's actually really sad. Thanks to the wonders of the internet, I've seen the new white dwarfs and they're honestly not even worth pirating to me. I'd much rather spend time in the dakka gallery than look at the pictures in WD, get painting tips int he tutorial section rather than WD guides, read players battle reports - or watch them on youtube - than read the lame manufactured ones from GW.

Hmm... that turned into a rant.

 jasper76 wrote:
So is the issue here primarily with the timing of these Looted Wagon rules, or do most people not want any rules in White Dwarf?

Are you familiar with the "day one dlc" concept? The problem with it is that it's widely believed that the day one dlc is content that was cut from the game to sell individually to the customers as a way to increase revenue, at the expense of selling a single complete product with the initial purchase. Rules in white dwarf would be great - if they weren't rules cut from the previous codex, but rather were new rules developed mid-cycle for a codex that has been out for a long time already. I'm not terribly familiar with Orks, but an IG example of good rules to put in white dwarf would be a new Leman Russ variant or a light infantry guardsman squad variant, that if good would be included in the next codex.

 jasper76 wrote:
One of the reasons why all my veteran friends said they stopped buying White Dwarf is because "it used to actually have rules".

So is the issue here primarily with the timing of these Looted Wagon rules, or do most people not want any rules in White Dwarf?

Yeah, here is the guff- White Dwarf used to be a monthly magazine. Now it's a monthly and weekly magazine. The monthly magazine is US$12, and the weekly is US$4. To buy an entire month of White Dwarf will cost you US$38. Arguably, if you purchase the entire months worth of weekly magazines, then you're seen most of the content in the monthly Visions magazine. Can you imagine buying a codex for US$50, then having to shell out another US$38 just to get all the rules for your codex? That would suck, and I can see GW doing just that.

The Looted Wagon is a "base line" model/entry for the Orks. It should have been included in the Codex. The only way I could compare it would be using the far more popular Codex: Space Marines. You buy the Codex, only to discover there is no Predator tank entry. There are a ton of references to it, but no actual rules or entry for it. GW then provides you with a WD article "Space Marine Predator Tank". Now I've just spent US$54 for my Space Marines just so I could have all the "Base Line" unit rules.

Now if the rules for a Looted Wagon had been in the original Ork Codex, and this WD article was a varient, i.e.; "Looted Evil Suns Wagon- Now With More Red Paint!" this would be a totally different discussion.

Gotcha

Yeah, Day 1 DLC is crap, be it video games or tabletop games.

Yep, and if people support it it'll only get worse. Thankfully PC gamers can be quite vocal in their discontent and the practice is now widely condemned and a very risky proposition. Hopefully we can help prevent it happening on the tabletop too if we can convince enough people to delay gratification and not put up with the practice, so GW pursues more customer friendly policies.

Not exactly the same issue, but with the oh-so-many Tyranid formations, they're like 5 bucks a pop with at least 3 different slates available for download....and while most of our gaming group is OK with using them, at my flgs, it's just the opposite...rules that aren't in the codex or BRB are not respected at all there, apparently at the behest of disgruntled tournament players, and it has carried over to even pickup game expectations.

Yo an - except it falls down given the obviously rushed in WD layout. The looted wagon took space that something else would have gone into.

You're attributing to malic, and doing so quite over the top way, what seems to be an error.

I trust my sources saying otherwise to your wild conjecture

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yo an - except it falls down given the obviously rushed in WD layout.

You're aware of the criticisms of the quality of the new weekly white dwarf? Very poor editing and all that. A poor layout is evidence of nothing other than more of the same poor quality editing.

 Yonan wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yo an - except it falls down given the obviously rushed in WD layout.

You're aware of the criticisms of the quality of the new weekly white dwarf? Very poor editing and all that. A poor layout is evidence of nothing other than more of the same poor quality editing.

Missing info, copied in gorka layout, etc. Way more evidence than your malice concept. Neatly ties into what my friends have stated.

 Steve steveson wrote:
There is only so much they can fit in the codex and for some reason looted wagons didn't make the cut.

We know the reason: There's no "official" model for it that they sell. They're getting rid of anything for which they don't currently have a model they're actively selling. It's their way of sticking it to companies that come along and fill in the gaps in their product line.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
(like when people critiscised about the 3 book rulebook set, complaining the A5 / standalone A4 wasnt available)

Eh, I have to admit, I'm not a fan of that one any more. The one book is heavy enough (I swear there's no way it should feel as heavy as it does, but it feels pretty hefty in my bag), one of the books is just pretty pictures and advertisements (with no useful information), and the last is a fluff book which I really don't need. If they're breaking the books up, they could print extra rulebooks and just sell those separate for a much lower cost for people who don't need a coffee table advertisement book or need/want the fluff book. *That* would be utilizing the book split in a manner friendly to the customers.

I suspect they'll do that at some point, but it's like the reason they're waiting on updating Dark Vengeance, they want to make sure they sell plenty of copies of the full sets first.

In the end, while it really should have made its way back into the base codex, I suppose we should be grateful it was kept around at all. I never fielded them at all in my time playing thus far (about a year or so), as I felt my points were better spent on Bikes or Kopters. I prefer mobility over a gimmicky and easy to blow up vehicle. But if they are revamping the thing to make it worth a damn, then I'd consider paying for the magazine just to have the small supplement.

It may sound as if I'm lethargic about it, and that would be because I am. I probably still won't field them that much unless the rumors of a solid Str8 pie plate + transport capacity combo is true. If it can get Boyz across the field with some bite in the process, I'd be willing to swap a Trukk or two from my usual lists and use LW instead. If they are still crap...well...then I'm still not out anything.

Erik- premium product. The big rule book has always come first (or only). Yes, they could sell it separately - but why would they reduce their own margins? They know how many they're likely to sell at each price point.

It's the same everywhere. Car manufacturers release the larger engines / higher specs then follow up with budget models, etc. It works.

 jasper76 wrote:
Not exactly the same issue, but with the oh-so-many Tyranid formations, they're like 5 bucks a pop with at least 3 different slates available for download.....

$18 per dataslate, actually.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Not exactly the same issue, but with the oh-so-many Tyranid formations, they're like 5 bucks a pop with at least 3 different slates available for download.....

$18 per dataslate, actually.

With the steam sale just starting, it brings into focus again exactly why that price is a *little* hard to justify!

People that think they "accidentally" left them out of the codex are kidding themselves. If they were so concerned about not letting the community down, they could have released these, for free, on their website, or added them into the official faq. GW would not have had them ready to go and print in white dwarf so quickly.

There weren't concerned about letting people down, they were concerned about ork players no longer buying GW models to build looted wagon and ork players leaving the game because their army of looted wagons have become invalidated.

Even GW knows that they have not way to justify kicking someone in the teeth for buying their models, which is what looted wagon players do, unlike all the other stuff that has disapeared for not having a model.

codex out

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Erik- premium product. The big rule book has always come first (or only). Yes, they could sell it separately - but why would they reduce their own margins? They know how many they're likely to sell at each price point.

I know how many they can sell and all. And while a business should make money, it's instances like this where they put money so far ahead of the customer that it's going to wind up biting them in the ass in the long run (and has already started doing so). They know that the gamers would rather buy their overpriced standalone book than pay for two more overpriced books they don't need or want, but they also know the gamers will want to play with their friends and they can shove out the most expensive version at first or just keep it like that and make more off of it at the expense of the customers.

My point, really, is that the new rulebook set wasn't done for the customers' sake, it wasn't a gesture of goodwill from GW. If they cared about the customers so much, they would have come out with the rulebook separate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yonan wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Not exactly the same issue, but with the oh-so-many Tyranid formations, they're like 5 bucks a pop with at least 3 different slates available for download.....

$18 per dataslate, actually.

With the steam sale just starting, it brings into focus again exactly why that price is a *little* hard to justify!

For $4, I can get "The Bureau: X-Com Declassified." I was holding off on it, because I'm not sure how much I'd be into the gameplay, though it does seem fun.

But then considering that's the price of a weekly throw-away pamphlet from Games Workshop, it seems like a huge bargain suddenly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orock wrote:
People that think they "accidentally" left them out of the codex are kidding themselves. If they were so concerned about not letting the community down, they could have released these, for free, on their website, or added them into the official faq. GW would not have had them ready to go and print in white dwarf so quickly.

They didn't, hence the errors like "Unit Composition" listing "1 Gorkanaut." They copied the Gorkanaut page, threw in a picture of someone's converted vehicle, and slapped a slightly edited version of the current rules into that template. It's not even remotely hard to do that, especially as WD is being thrown together quickly every week, and put together in a computer program before being sent to the printer. It's also very likely that something got cut out to make room for it.

 Orock wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Considering the cost of Warhammer in general as a hobby, didnt think 4 bucks would be that much of a big deal

4 dollar starbucks drinks aren't a big deal. 300 of them a year is. Nickel and diming you for something you should be getting with your purchase is something people before our generations would have never put up with. its an insult. Nickel and dime extra charges that you don't notice now a days are why people cant afford homes anymore. Look at what we pay for now that we dident used to.

TV. TV was with rabbit ears, and commercials paid the studios what they needed to produce and broadcast. Now we pay a company for the privelige of watching already paid for content.
Computers. They weren't commonplace where everyone had one, sometimes 2 or 3 as today. Constant upgrades and fixing.
Phones. The bills were a fraction of what they are now inflated for today, even with paying for long distance. Also planned obsolescence of things like the Iphone, where you simply HAVE to have a new one every 2 years.
Cars engineered to last 10 years or less, when they used to make them so well many classics are still driven today.

Nickel and diming like this has been for the last 25 years THE biggest profit for effort endeavors society has come up with yet.

Don't accept low quality products because something else you can buy later comes along and fixes that.

To be fair, computers weren't commonplace because a 10 MB HDD used to cost 3,000 dollars. Now if you spend 3,000 dollars on an entire computer, even before adjusting for 30 years of inflation... well, you're probably spending way the hell too much. A modern gaming computer is something you can get for under a thousand dollars, especially if you build it yourself.

Also, my desktop has more computing power than was used in the entire Apollo 11 mission. Right now I'm using that kind of power to get offended about something someone said about the 4 computers I own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
There weren't concerned about letting people down, they were concerned about ork players no longer buying GW models to build looted wagon and ork players leaving the game because their army of looted wagons have become invalidated.

Even GW knows that they have not way to justify kicking someone in the teeth for buying their models, which is what looted wagon players do, unlike all the other stuff that has disapeared for not having a model.

...Squats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yonan wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Not exactly the same issue, but with the oh-so-many Tyranid formations, they're like 5 bucks a pop with at least 3 different slates available for download.....

$18 per dataslate, actually.

With the steam sale just starting, it brings into focus again exactly why that price is a *little* hard to justify!

I just paid 25 dollars to change my Shaman in World of Warcraft from a bipedal panda into a good guy space demon-squid.

It seems like the looted wagon was included in WD because people didn't want it removed from codex, and it was removed from the codex.

sounds like GW listened to its customers and did something positive, but then charged some money for it. Less like they decided to hold back a model and put it in WD to make people pay more money for it. If they had wanted to do that it would have just been a datalsate DLC thing. Recently GW has been removing units from the rules that do not have models (parasite of mor, doom, etc) Look out dark eldar special HQ models

 Pouncey wrote:
...Squats.

Did that even happen during this millennium?

Erick - so essentially they should have just released a normal brb, and avoided this entitlement crap moaning?

Premise: first release is premium, rightly pointing out that the HOBBY is more than the rules for a game you can play

Consequent: release one large book, to hammer this point home. Inconveniences those that just want the rules

Or:

Consequent: release one set, giving a more convenient set for everybody, but still following this initial premise. More useful to everyone

Cons: people feel so entitled to have the rules in the format they want that GW get bitched at for doing a genuinely useful, for the gamer thing, but still doing what EVERYONE does and pushes premium first for early adopters.

No one has forced you to play the game. Or to now play 7th. If it is truly something awful - don't buy. Don't expect GW to care too much though

I am going to bump this post later when it is proved that:

GW comes out with dataslates that magically allow bikers to be troops again, something that was included in the now outdated book. It wont even be different watch. Warboss on a bike? nobs or boys on bikes are troops.

And another im sure that will make deff dreads and kans troops too. You will see. these options that should have been included at no extra cost to us will now cost.

 Orock wrote:
I am going to bump this post later when it is proved that:

GW comes out with dataslates that magically allow bikers to be troops again, something that was included in the now outdated book. It wont even be different watch. Warboss on a bike? nobs or boys on bikes are troops.

And another im sure that will make deff dreads and kans troops too. You will see. these options that should have been included at no extra cost to us will now cost.

We'll hold you to that.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Home?_requestid=2496452

Ghazs coming as a suppliment
already in warboss ed.

The Codex: Orks Warboss Edition contains a wealth of brutally kunnin’ Ork content including two books, an art wallet and brushed metal tactical objective tokens. This Webstore Exclusive Edition is only available in English and it is strictly limited to 2000 copies worldwide.

Presented in a chest with a hinged lid and detailed with a large Ork glyph, the Warboss Edition contains two volumes: a special edition of Codex: Orks and the brand new, never before seen special edition of Waaagh! Ghazghull: A Codex: Orks supplement. Each book is bound with a finish unique to this edition.

Just don't buy it.

Problem solved.

Ghaz is still in the codex, its just a supplement.

Many armies have supplements, TBH im slightly sad that the supplement is Ghaz, I heard rumors the first ork supplement iwould be Blood Axe related, but obviously that is not the case.

Given that orks aren't imperials chances they will get a second supplement are very low.