Inspired by this thread from 40k General: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/603410.page, titled 'Units That Never Leave The Shelf. Reading through that, I noticed a lot of people leaving perfectly serviceable units out of their army for various reasons. I figured we could use a thread here where, instead of dismissing units, we work together to find a use for them.

I'll preface this by saying that I'm not expecting someone to come along with a suggestion for turning Penitent Engines into GT winners or the like, but rather just providing ways in which we can all get the most out of our collections. So basically, post here the units you can't or won't use because you're not convinced of their usefulness, and hopefully people will come along with suggestions.

The thing to bear in mind here is that some units are better than others at certain roles, but that doesn't have to relegate their competition to uselessness. The Best doesn't matter here, but Good Enough does. I know a lot of people don't look at tactics in this way, and that's all good, but for those of us that do I hope this thread can remain positive, informative and useful.

So, have at it. Be as specific or vague as you like (ie. Assault Marines vs 5 Assault Marines with a Power Sword and a Flamer, both are fine here).

As much as i love him i can bring my self to bring out CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED as he almost costs a quarter of my points always. amidoingitright?

Bloodcrushers.

With their drop in toughness and loss of 3+ from the last book, many, including myself, class them as way too fragile for their points. We are right, no doubt about that, but..

They hit like a brick in a sock, and they're quick as hell.

I've identified my main issue is only running three in a unit (with Herald) which means that they're way too easy to focus down.

My fix would be to run a bigger unit (I have another 3 buried deep in the production line,) include something like the Grimoire with the idea to specifically increase their survivability, and use the icon so they can get one decent length charge in per game guaranteed.

I may also consider supporting them with a skull cannon, to allow them to charge into units in cover without penalty.

Use monolith as Bastion o/

Desubot wrote:As much as i love him i can bring my self to bring out CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED as he almost costs a quarter of my points always. amidoingitright?

Creed is a tough one, as he costs as much as another CCS with toys and only brings one more order, but there are some situations I can see him being useful.

If you're running a lot of low-leadership units (HWS, Conscripts) then his auto-re-roll ability on all Orders tests can be handy in supporting them; as they can't take voxes, he's the only way to 'twin-link' their orders. A little sitational, but even outside of that he can save a fair bit on voxes.

2 Warlord traits gives him a decent chance to roll the 'extra order' or 'extra order range' warlord trait from the IG book (and if you get both, that could be awesome) or even the D3 Outflank one which gives him the old 'Tactical Genius' rule back. With 5/6 of the IG Warlord Traits being good, you can count on a free, if a little random, 'bonus ability'.

I you use the malestrom-related Warlord Traits, that could be pretty cool as well.

azreal13 wrote:Bloodcrushers.

With their drop in toughness and loss of 3+ from the last book! many! including myself! class them as way too fragile for their points. We are right, no doubt about that, but..

They hit like a brick in a sock, and they're quick as hell.

I've identified my main issue is only running three in a unit (with Herald) which means that they're way too easy to focus down.

My fix would be to run a bigger unit (I have another 3 buried deep in the production line,) include something like the Grimoire with the idea to specifically increase their survivability, and use the icon so they can get one decent length charge in per game guaranteed.

I may also consider supporting them with a skull cannon, to allow them to charge into units in cover without penalty.

Seems like the way to go. Another one would be to run a pair of smaller units in tandem, as the enemy is forced to split fire between them and will probably find it harder to gun down two separate units than one larger one (they're less susceptible to blasts and massed fire as smaller units). It also gives you the option to split up should targets present themselves, or charge multiple targets without losing the A bonus overall.

Maybe run them with Khorne Dogs as a second wave?

Howling Banshees :( Poor girls

So easy to kill with no assault transport unless you are using Raiders in 7th.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Howling Banshees :( Poor girls

So easy to kill with no assault transport unless you are using Raiders in 7th.

At least they can use raiders now (though not T1 which kinda sucks)

I have yet to build my second monolith because I don't know what to make with two.

 Desubot wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Howling Banshees :( Poor girls

So easy to kill with no assault transport unless you are using Raiders in 7th.

At least they can use raiders now (though not T1 which kinda sucks)

This is a good idea. Keep them in cover/out of LOS if you're going second, move 6", drive as fast as you can and hit the closest MEQ you can get to. You don't lose any distance by not starting embarked, just spend a turn in the open, which can be somewhat mitigated by cover and terrain. Also, threat overload also applies here; 1 assault unit will get gunned down, 2 might be, 3 assault units will hit something. I'm not suggesting 3 units of Banshees, but throw in some Wyches/Bloodbrides/Scorpions/Incubi and you get the idea.

a couple months before the new SM codex came out, I built and painted a CC biker captain and command squad kitted out with assorted power weapons and storm shields. back then, it was an expensive but decently killy unit relative to what was available in the codex. with the new codex, and 7th, they seem way too pricey to justify a spot in my usual 1500-2000 lists. especially in light of how they fail to benefit at all from my chosen chapter tactics (salamanders):

captain on bike with power first & lightning claw
biker with two lightning claws
biker with power maul and storm shield
biker with power axe and storm shield
biker with power sword and storm shield
apothecary on bike

short of proxying these guys as some other flavor of bikers (grav bikers are an obvious choice, but I try to run WYSIWYG as much as possible), what uses do they have that would justify their costs for a 1500+ salamanders army?

Tactical Terminators. I'd love to hear this.

I'm looking at two units to try out again.

1. Warp Hunter. I was not a fan of the update, but will give it another shot.

2. Harlequins. In early 6th, I played the Harliestar and it was a lot of fun. Now, Invisibility has me taking another hard look at them. We will see.

 Feasible wrote:
Tactical Terminators. I'd love to hear this.

While they might not be the most point efficient unit out there, they still can kill things. If you play in a Tuadar world where you can’t shake a stick without eating a AP2/rending pie plate, they they have issues. For more moderate tables, you keep them away from the one or two plasma guns on the table and have fun.

I periodically field mine 5 man, assault cannon, and a chainfist. The firepower might not be the best, but it’s mobile and good for whittling down troops. In a pinch the AsC can take a stab at most anything, hoping for a rend. In CC you have the sarge with his sword, and then the fists. 2 attacks each, more on the charge. This will wreck most things’ days.

One of the key things is keeping them away from AP2 and masses of troops. Luckily with deep strike, you often can.

They are a jack of all trades unit, and pay a lot for flexibility. They have some flaws. But if you step away from the “every game is top table tournament competitive” and “always assume the worst case scenario” they actually can be fun to use.

Harlequin Death Jester

Chaos terminators. I run them all with combi plasma and some heavy flamers and MoN in a big squad with a sorcerer. Transport them in a land raider using belakor to make it invisible. Not competitive but it works in most games. A land raider that can only be hit on snap shots is pretty hard to kill. You can also give it shrouding with belakor who can sit behind it for safety(that way you dont have to fly him and can get a turn two assault) .

Coming out of the land raider you have a sorcerer to do stuff and just a stupid amount of Ap2 incoming. Move it to the biggest concentration of enemy infantry and just unload. Then assault with a buttload of Ap2 str 5 (or does it give +2 forget) attacks from axes.

The land raider SHOULD make it across the table safely. The problem is this unit will almost never make its points back. Putting 8 Plague marines with a sorc in termie armor (with some nifty upgrades) will do the same thing better. 3 poisoned attacks each on the charge. Melta shots for tanky light armor in the way. The sorcerer will provide Ap2 and extra shooting.

 Feasible wrote:
Tactical Terminators. I'd love to hear this.

Land Speeder Vengeance. I have no idea what GW was thinking on this vehicle. It seems sopowerful and I want to use it. The idea of a 24" range I-will-blow-my-self-up cannon mounted on a 2 hull point flying paper bag worries me though. Always wanted to see someones face though deepstriking it in and dropping a 5" template on something.

I think putting a Terminator sorcerer with a spell familiar into a squad of Chaos Termies could be pretty legit. You get psychic shriek for free, so if you roll on invisibility and deep-strike that bad boy you could do some nasty things.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think putting a Terminator sorcerer with a spell familiar into a squad of Chaos Termies could be pretty legit. You get psychic shriek for free, so if you roll on invisibility and deep-strike that bad boy you could do some nasty things.

Every answer in this thread could be, "Put invisibility on it and it's not bad!" People need to broaden their tactics farther than, I hope I get invisibility.

Rough Riders, especially if I was able to use my conversion with the new Scion Models and Pistolier Legs and Horses.

Mr Morden wrote:Howling Banshees :( Poor girls

So easy to kill with no assault transport unless you are using Raiders in 7th.

Bharring wrote:Harlequin Death Jester

Oh gosh, Banshees are really bad...the best bet is to take either Baraharroth or Asurmen. Both either have falcon's swiftness(or might roll it) a 2+/4++ to tank, and decent CC power. Baraharroth brings hit and run as well as the chance to blind the enemy, compounded with a banshee exarch w/fear and executioner you have a decent chance of not getting wiped out on the counter strike.

Harlequins are really difficult to use, although the death jester meshes well with Maugan Ra to tank hits. The problem is the shadowseer in the new edition. She needs the power to go off, which means dumping dice into veil of tears, but 2/3 times she rolls 2 or more sixes she dies, taking her blessing with her. Plus the lack of battle focus is outright insulting, when you can take guardians and a warlock+shuricannon with maugan ra for similar effect and cost....

 Goldphish wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think putting a Terminator sorcerer with a spell familiar into a squad of Chaos Termies could be pretty legit. You get psychic shriek for free, so if you roll on invisibility and deep-strike that bad boy you could do some nasty things.

Every answer in this thread could be, "Put invisibility on it and it's not bad!" People need to broaden their tactics farther than, I hope I get invisibility.

Well, beyond Termicide or a grimoire there's not a whole lot that can be done for them.

There's a reason "invisibility or bust" or "grimoire or bust" is a common suggestion. If these units were good enough to not rely on one-trick pony cheese, they wouldn't be in this category in the first place.

"hope you get invis..."

belakor always has it

Repentia get mixed reviews.

One way which I use them is as a countercharge unit for backfield defence as I usually leave small units to hold objectives or have Retributors as a firebase. Alternatively, it would be the usual load into a Rhino for forward purposes.

One thing I've wanted to try would be to bubble wrap them with a large sisters unit. Saves them for when the drop pod comes down and unloads marines or when assault troops DS near my main group. Protects them from fire and hopefully they get to blend marines with their 3+ FNP and 6+ invuln saves.

 Goldphish wrote:

 Feasible wrote:
Tactical Terminators. I'd love to hear this.

Land Speeder Vengeance. I have no idea what GW was thinking on this vehicle. It seems sopowerful and I want to use it. The idea of a 24" range I-will-blow-my-self-up cannon mounted on a 2 hull point flying paper bag worries me though. Always wanted to see someones face though deepstriking it in and dropping a 5" template on something.

one way the lsv can work is as a flanking vehicle with some other speeders in support. You bring the apex of the fight to one table edge then use them to swing inward from the other keeping los and high quality terrain between you and your enemy. Stick a librarian with them if you want to twin link the vengeance.

Use the speeders to blast the edge of his army off and force him to go deal with them.

Another fix gw could do is give us the ability to look out sir on our speeders and bury him in a squad of other speeders. A squadron of speeders rolling and trolling like absolute bosses and with even 6 ablative hp on the vengeance it would go from 0 to hero just like that.

I love the idea of this thread. If someone tells me something is unplayable it makes me want to play this unit even more.

I would love to play both of my Monoliths, as someone already said before. I'm thinking of running them as a wall in front to get close to the enemy, then suck them into the game or port out slow units that don't get used much either, e.g. Praetorians.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Feasible wrote:
Tactical Terminators. I'd love to hear this.

While they might not be the most point efficient unit out there, they still can kill things. If you play in a Tuadar world where you can’t shake a stick without eating a AP2/rending pie plate, they they have issues. For more moderate tables, you keep them away from the one or two plasma guns on the table and have fun.

I periodically field mine 5 man, assault cannon, and a chainfist. The firepower might not be the best, but it’s mobile and good for whittling down troops. In a pinch the AsC can take a stab at most anything, hoping for a rend. In CC you have the sarge with his sword, and then the fists. 2 attacks each, more on the charge. This will wreck most things’ days.

One of the key things is keeping them away from AP2 and masses of troops. Luckily with deep strike, you often can.

They are a jack of all trades unit, and pay a lot for flexibility. They have some flaws. But if you step away from the “every game is top table tournament competitive” and “always assume the worst case scenario” they actually can be fun to use.

Yep, Nev has the right of it here.

Terminators need care and support to use, but when they work, they work. They can't just drop in solo in front of the enemy gunline without any backup and not get killed, but if you drop in with a Pod Dread, another Termy squad, Assault Marines or some other threat that forces the enemy to split fire them they stand a good chance.

Assault Cannon is the way to go due to the versatility of it, I think, although I've had some good success burning out units in cover with a Heavy Flamer out of nowhere. Maybe a Chainfist, but unless you're running after Land Raiders or Monoliths then a few Power Fists should be able to handle it.

Why not use them as a pair with one deep striking in enemy territory? I he has blobs guarding backfield, you can pull in tesla immortals. If he has vehicles, maybe pull a 20 man warrior blob. Would that work?

By pulling your guys to his line, he would have to double back his advance forces to defend or press on ahead. If he presses on, the base Monolith could bring them back.

 Murenius wrote:
I love the idea of this thread. If someone tells me something is unplayable it makes me want to play this unit even more.

I would love to play both of my Monoliths, as someone already said before. I'm thinking of running them as a wall in front to get close to the enemy, then suck them into the game or port out slow units that don't get used much either, e.g. Praetorians.

If you've got two, then I think there's some fun to be had by using them as large LOS blockers to protect weaker units, and then teleport them in front when the enemy come in range. Say, for example, you hide 10 Immortals behind each, and have another squad of them with a Veiltek. The enemy close, and you move up behind the Monolith. When they're around 15" or so from the Monolith, teleport the hiding units forward, teleport the Veiltek unit behind them, and catch them in a crossfire. (Bonus points for shouting 'it's a TRAP' beforehand). This could also work with Warriors.

The other thing to consider is that 2 giant AV14 vehicles will give you a VERY solid core of the army to fight around, it's like having mobile Bastions in that you have a solid and reliable anchor point. The enemy will naturally be drawn towards this, as other than Railguns the best weapons to kill them need to be at a reasonably close range (melta/fusion/Chainfists ect), so it'll be comparatively easier to pull a flanking manoeuvre with mobile units such as Veilteks, Wraiths, Anni-Barges or Tomb Blades. Basically, the enemy either has to cede board control to you (and therefore some objectives) or focus A LOT on taking it from you, which also plays into your hands quite nicely.

For monoliths use them as support units and bullies to vehicles and buildings. they tank shock at str 10 and are fun to use a C'tan ping-pong. They are sturdy drop pods that can move around and always pop things out of them. MEQ/vehicle wreckers with their ordnance or glance-a-holics with their 4 turrets for MSU transports all over the board. Toss in zhandrek and deep strike it during your opponent's turn and spit out an entire 20 man unit or warriors (necron faq for 7th: "Add 'Note that a Monolith can use its dimensional corridor on a turn that it deploys by Deep Strike.'' to the end of the rule") Or the MC from FW. PLus even it death if it wasn't exploded it has its uses as free LOS blocking terrain.

In regards to the Chaos terminators they are much more versatile than the SM counter parts, so could work for chaos doesn't really work for SM. So as far as I see it the SM terminators don't really work unless it TH/SS termi's in a LR.

I would like to see someone come up with a way to make Pyrovores work or at least potentially do something in a game.

Dark Angels Veterans... expensive, and they don't even seem to *have* one trick, besides getting more expensive when you give them decent weaponry. At best you can make them a bit like Chaos Terminators only more expensive and not as good.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Dark Angels Veterans... expensive, and they don't even seem to *have* one trick, besides getting more expensive when you give them decent weaponry. At best you can make them a bit like Chaos Terminators only more expensive and not as good.

I'd run them like mini-Sternguard in a Deathwing list, loading them up on combi-plasma/melta and Drop Pod them in, with your focus being on taking out the primary sources of AP2 or 1 in the enemy army. Their one job is to deal with the threats to the Deathwing and contribute to the alpha-strike of the army, leaving the Terminators free to engage softer targets. It can take a little pressure of the Terminators to kill the threats to them on the drop.

If they survive, charge the nearest unit. To this end, I'd take BP/CCW on everyone without a combi.

Yeah, the drop pod approach is definitely viable, but they're *so* expensive.

My problem with them is that though they don't compete in role with the drop podding flamer-wielding assault marines, they do compete for drop pods.

5-man assault squad + drop pod + 2 flamers + combi-flamer = 105 pts.

5-man vet squad + drop pod + 2 combi-meltas + melta = 155 pts!

I guess if I owned 3 drop pods, though, one of each plus a Venerable Dread with multimelta and heavy flamer could add a nice bit of pressure to a Deathwing drop list.

 azreal13 wrote:
Bloodcrushers.

With their drop in toughness and loss of 3+ from the last book, many, including myself, class them as way too fragile for their points. We are right, no doubt about that, but..

They hit like a brick in a sock, and they're quick as hell.

I've identified my main issue is only running three in a unit (with Herald) which means that they're way too easy to focus down.

My fix would be to run a bigger unit (I have another 3 buried deep in the production line,) include something like the Grimoire with the idea to specifically increase their survivability, and use the icon so they can get one decent length charge in per game guaranteed.

I may also consider supporting them with a skull cannon, to allow them to charge into units in cover without penalty.

Have you considered playing them in tandem with Be'lakor? Invisibility on such a unit would surely improve upon their toughness. Add in one or two Soulgrinders as your second wave? I don't play Daemons (or CSM) but they're popular around here and I learned a lot about what works for either of them that way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Howling Banshees :( Poor girls

So easy to kill with no assault transport unless you are using Raiders in 7th.

MSU threat-overload would work. Venoms all over the place, 3 squads of 5 Howling Banshees with Executioner Exarch...it'd take some planning, but they could definitely work. Lots of turbo-boosting Venoms with CC squads inside is a very fun, very aggresive tactic that makes your opponent sweat. Probably wouldn't work on a competitive level, but is it good enough? I'd say so.

10 Chosen assaulting out of a Land Raider, or 20 Chosen assaulting out of a Spartan Assault Tank. This is like what Berzerkers used to be.

I desperately want Necron Destroyers to be good, but... that price tag.

Oh well, at least Tomb Blades are seeing a bit more play, now.

Ok, here's something I've been wondering - What are the advantages of Sternguard vs Command Squads for drop pod lists? Or does this not come up because everyone runs command squads on bikes?

I've been thinking about starting a small marine force, and as I look at drop pod options it seems like I can either get 5 sternguard with combi-meltas in a pod for 205, or I can get 5 command vets all with melta guns in a pod for only 185.

What do people generally take? I mean, both units are suicide squads, so why not go with the cheaper option? Also, if they do survive the Command squad still seems like the better option. One shot meltas and then special ammunition after that? No thanks, I'd rather be able to take another shot at a nearby tank.

Belac Ynnead wrote:
Ok, here's something I've been wondering - What are the advantages of Sternguard vs Command Squads for drop pod lists? Or does this not come up because everyone runs command squads on bikes?

I've been thinking about starting a small marine force, and as I look at drop pod options it seems like I can either get 5 sternguard with combi-meltas in a pod for 205, or I can get 5 command vets all with melta guns in a pod for only 185.

What do people generally take? I mean, both units are suicide squads, so why not go with the cheaper option? Also, if they do survive the Command squad still seems like the better option. One shot meltas and then special ammunition after that? No thanks, I'd rather be able to take another shot at a nearby tank.

Good question. The way I see it, Sternguard you kind of want to keep alive as they're very good even without the meltas and over multiple turns, so you want to keep them alive, and to that end take more than 5 guys. Command squads, meanwhile cap at 5 men so although they potentially have greater utility over multiple turns, it's much easier to prevent that from happening.

Both are sound choices, the way I see it.

I like this thread too.

I'll start by throwing out my generic pitch for tactical terminators and posessed.

jakl277 wrote:Chaos terminators.

CSM terminators are one of the best units in the game.

You start with all the benefits of a terminator (2+, ++, deepstrike) and add all the benefits of sternguard (deepstrike, combi-weapons), and all the benefits of a crusader/DCA blob (++, tons of at-initiative power attacks), and you still have the option to take powerfists and chainfists, and heavy flamers, and an AA weapon.

And THEN you can give them marks to make them better in close combat, or more durable, or to take nearly-stormshields AND shooting weapons. And THEN you can give them icons which make them much more likely to get into close combat, or gives them fear, or makes their guns start people on fire, or gives them feel no pain.

You can use CSM termies as nothing but melticide, especially since they're cheaper than regular terminators to boot, but there is a HUGE pile of stuff you can do with them. Super customizable, lots of good setups, can work in any army. I really, really like CSM termies.

Mr Morden wrote:Howling Banshees :( Poor girls

Well, just look at what they do.

To start with, they all have power weapons. Even at a measly S3, this automatically makes them better in close combat than most stuff. Furthermore, the exarch can EASILY be tooled to dominate challenges with a source of at-initiative AP2, the banshee mask, the shield of grace, etc. They can also have fear which, in combination with the power weapons and the strikes-faster-than-you with Ap3 means that you're going to be able to pretty much run over any basic infantry unit on the charge.

Nothing else in the codex has these qualities except seer councils and scorpions. So then what do they have different from those? Firstly, compared to the seer council they're very, very cheap. They don't get as much versatility, and can't cast psychic power, etc. etc. but you really have to pay for those with a seer council, of which you can only have one and, depending on the army, may be at reduced size if you're using them as sergeants. On the other side, you have scorpions, who also mulch light infantry no problem. They do, however, instantly lose 2/3rds of their effectiveness the moment they come across power armor.

So, what does this leave? banshees are going to be good for handling things that are I4 or better, and they're going to be for handling Sv3+ (and Sv4+ in a pinch), and are going to beat face in challenges. That means...

- They can compete in the initiative game. This makes them good against pretty much all dark eldar, who have low toughness and rely on speed. It also makes them good against the eldar codex as well.

- They ignore Sv3+, and Ap5 doesn't ignore their armor. Say hello to the entire MEq spectrum. It's going to be especially good against MEq that are also good in close combat, like khorne berzerkers, noise marines, or assault marines. Also, there is a slough of mid-weight MEq characters that may not be in terminator or artificer armor like librarians, dark apostles, several special characters, and aspiring champions. And then, of course, you add the executioner, and suddenly the exarch has a pretty good chance of beating up any character in a challenge, even at just 35 points, with the odds going way up with a few 10 point upgrades.

Both of this means two things. The first is that they can make some pretty decent assassins. Picking that one unit that your opponent is relying on to give synergy to the rest of their army and then removing it mid-game. The second is that they're sort of the anti-elites-choice-elite-choice. Just think of the long list of stuff that's more expensive than they are that they can handle with relative ease, from stormtroopers to sternguard to crisis suits to chosen to trueborn to immortals. The list goes on and on of elites choices that are just better troops choices who will get massacred by a cheaper unit. This is especially true if you use them in a defensive fashion. Their CC threat bubble is pretty large, and there's an awful lot they can beat or at least hurt well beyond its points cost on the countercharge, even some of the tougher stuff if the rest of your army softens them up a bit with shooting.

As such, banshees are sort of "save the day" units. Something comes up and banshees rush in like superheroes to stop it at the last minute. For really, really cheap.

They're like a better version of guard rough riders.

Paradigm wrote:Creed is a tough one, as he costs as much as another CCS with toys and only brings one more order, but there are some situations I can see him being useful.

To be fair, creed was only sort of worth it in the first place as a gimmick to outflank something. The honor of cadia order died with power blobs, and anything he could do would be done better with two CCSs. Honestly, tactical genius is still sort of a gimmick.

But now that he absorbed everything useful about kell into himself, he's no longer just straight worse than two CCSs. Yes, he only has 3 orders instead of 4, but those rerolls without a vox net are killer. As mentioned, not everything can take a vox, and even the stuff you can... do you actually want to? Creed isn't cheap, but the price of a second CCS and a vox net quickly overtakes creed's cost.

More importantly, creed makes it easier for you to run MSU guard now. Extra orders that just pass without voxes or commissars plunked into each and every squad. Yeah, this means he pairs with HWSs, but it also means he works better with MSU infantry platoons as well. Plus, he's also better with other support units like ratlings and ogryn.

Not all armies are going to benefit from creed (like mech armies, who don't make much use of CCSs anyways) but those armies that play the orders game could do worse than invest in making their orders better.

 Ailaros wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:Howling Banshees :( Poor girls

Well, just look at what they do.
...

As such, banshees are sort of "save the day" units. Something comes up and banshees rush in like superheroes to stop it at the last minute. For really, really cheap.

They're like a better version of guard rough riders.

I reeeeeeeally want to make banshees work. I agree with most of what you've said here - except that I do want to point out how often STR 3 can let you down vs. marines. I can't count the number of times I've just utterly failed to wound anything vs. T4, and then relied on the exarch to actually do the killing.

That said - with the new battle bro's rules I'm adding a little DE contingent into my army so that I can run them in a raider. I'm going to stick an archon in the unit as well with a huskblade and basically just treat him as an extra exarch. I run Guardians with bright lances on foot as it is and the necessary Kabbalite squad can just take a dark lance and fit right in. ^_^ The whole DE crew will be less than 300 points, so we'll see how it goes.

If they had changed Ordnance to actually not be terrible, I'd use my Monolith once more. I miss him...

Oh man. Monoliths. I have a friend with one of those. the first time I blew it up with assaulting swooping hawks he spent about 15 minutes searching through its special rules - certain that there was something about haywire in there. Honestly, there probably should be some sort of resistance, doncha think?

Mabye 6 banchies in a venom. They are tiny transports that can often hide out of LOS.

How about my two max units of Rough Riders?

Love these guys and want them to be worth it so bad, but if I'm honest with myself I'd rather have a Vendetta take up one slot for the same points cost as 20 Rough Riders.

 Frankenberry wrote:
How about my two max units of Rough Riders?

Love these guys and want them to be worth it so bad, but if I'm honest with myself I'd rather have a Vendetta take up one slot for the same points cost as 20 Rough Riders.

One Vendetta is never going to save your army from the wing-a-ling Hive Tyrant currently slurping down the rest of your army. 20 Rough Riders will, easily.

It's a shame they lost Mogul Kamir. Him+Rough Riders was the most cost efficient killing power assault unit in the game, no exceptions.

Belac Ynnead wrote: except that I do want to point out how often STR 3 can let you down vs. marines.

I played power blobs all through 5th edition. Yeah, an S3 power weapon is crummy, but LOTS of S3 power weapon attacks will rip marines apart.

I mean, if you're looking at just five banshees and seeing how crappy they are, remember that you're only spending 75 points on them. At that kind of bargain basement price, it SHOULDN'T completely dominate big squads of marines.

Frankenberry wrote:How about my two max units of Rough Riders?

Rough riders are banshees but worse, but even cheaper. Just keep them hidden somewhere and when something big and scary comes nearby shout "surprise!" and hit him with 30 S5 Ap3 attacks. It shouldn't be that difficult to set up a 110 point piece trade with that kind of damage profile.

And if your opponent doesn't bring something big and scary to you, well, they're still fast, at least, and you can still give them special weapons. They can still be cheap zone defenders and be mid-field lurking threats. Plus, with the new battle missions, having something that can scoot around at calvary speeds can be nice.

 Ailaros wrote:

Rough riders are banshees but worse, but even cheaper.

Are you sure you don't mean better and cheaper? S5 is vastly better than S3. Neither of them will be in more than one assault, so the one use thing doesn't matter. Plus, assault grenades so they'll actually swing first, instead of probably simultaneously. Krak grenades, so they can butcher vehicles. And Hammer of Wrath, which is perhaps the most underrated assault rule in the game. Also, way faster, but you did mention that.

 Ailaros wrote:

Just keep them hidden somewhere and when something big and scary comes nearby shout "surprise!" and hit him with 30 S5 Ap3 attacks

20 S5 AP3 attacks. Hunting lances are specialist weapons.

Seriously, Rough Riders are excellent.

Ah.

Banshees at least get an armor save against bolters, and can be super in challenges, and can take a wave serpent as a dedicated transport. And have Ap5 pistols, and can take fear, and have battle focus.

Yes, I know, a bunch of tiny things. I'd think the fact that they're more likely to actually get into a close combat (especially if your opponent is running a gunline) makes up for them being not quite so good when they get there.

The main issue I have with CSM termies for anything other than suicide units and HQ escorts is that will occasionally have to take a morale check, and when they fail it, its a huge pile of points running like sissies. You can give them the fearless banner but its an inordinate amount of points and the model carrying will die when you need it most.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Dark Angels Veterans... expensive, and they don't even seem to *have* one trick, besides getting more expensive when you give them decent weaponry. At best you can make them a bit like Chaos Terminators only more expensive and not as good.

I'd run them like mini-Sternguard in a Deathwing list, loading them up on combi-plasma/melta and Drop Pod them in, with your focus being on taking out the primary sources of AP2 or 1 in the enemy army. Their one job is to deal with the threats to the Deathwing and contribute to the alpha-strike of the army, leaving the Terminators free to engage softer targets. It can take a little pressure of the Terminators to kill the threats to them on the drop.

If they survive, charge the nearest unit. To this end, I'd take BP/CCW on everyone without a combi.

Indeed another use for them is a close range threat for a lrc/lrr. Tia then to a full harness pfg tech and give em all fame and melta weapons and cc weapons.

If someone should try and cc your land raider while Ita dumping obscene amounts of damage with its bolters or las cannons. They all get out of the bus and make it a one way trip; or they at least feed the enemy long enough for your brick to skulk off and get away from the cc.

Darzolak wrote:
In regards to the Chaos terminators they are much more versatile than the SM counter parts, so could work for chaos doesn't really work for SM. So as far as I see it the SM terminators don't really work unless it TH/SS termi's in a LR.

I would like to see someone come up with a way to make Pyrovores work or at least potentially do something in a game.

Outside of a Cities of death game or maybe a Planetstrike game, I just can't see how to make Pyro's usable. The model is to big to hide easy, to slow to be good at assault, it blows up and get basic flamer as the only weapon. I had expected it to get torrent in the latest codex. but it got nothing.

JubbJubbz wrote:You can give them the fearless banner but its an inordinate amount of points and the model carrying will die when you need it most.

Or you don't put the banner in the front of the squad.

Or you attach a lord to your ~400+ point ubersquad and they become fearless.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also see things like this:

Wyzilla wrote:That doesn't however remove the fact that Warp Talons can end up costing you a fourth of the average sized army, and are only really useful when fighting Space Marines.

Warp talons have everything going for them that rough riders and howling banshees do. Just because they're Ap3 doesn't make them worthless, it just makes them GROSSLY underrated.

Warp talons are still fast, and they still basically ignore terrain. They still, when your opponent sets up right for you to exploit it, have the ability to deepstrike. And with 3+/5++, and T4, and the ability to be made T5 or 4++, they're a LOT more survivable than those other options. And they get fear for free, and a blind attack you'll almost never get to use.

And they're S4, and they're shred, which means they're a much more serious threat to monstrous creatures. There's a lot going on for them here.

Yes, like rough riders and banshees, they're going to be much easier to use in a strictly defensive role, but with deepstrike, at least, they have the ability to play zone defense better, and will have a much easier time doing things like picking off back-field objective holders.

And to say they're only good against marines is beyond silly. What they do to marines, they also do to firewarriors and crisis suits, and warriors and certain other TMCs, and they will certainly put the fear of the emperor into a guard blob. 10 MoK warp talons will kill 24 guardsmen on the charge. So much for the invincible pile of infantry. And any infantry squad that's not fearless, well, makes a fear test.

Like banshees and rough riders, they can blow away chaff units no problem, but they're also really good against most of the mid-level hitters and small squads that rely on not having a massive pile of attacks thrown at them. Heck, warp talons will even beat terminators.

And, like the other options we're talking about, at a discount to whatever they're likely killing. With speed and flexibility to boot.

Warp talons are still super useful, and that's before you start using them as a deepstrike bodyguard for a sorcerer or brand lord.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Yeah, the drop pod approach is definitely viable, but they're *so* expensive.

My problem with them is that though they don't compete in role with the drop podding flamer-wielding assault marines, they do compete for drop pods.

5-man assault squad + drop pod + 2 flamers + combi-flamer = 105 pts.

5-man vet squad + drop pod + 2 combi-meltas + melta = 155 pts!

I guess if I owned 3 drop pods, though, one of each plus a Venerable Dread with multimelta and heavy flamer could add a nice bit of pressure to a Deathwing drop list.

well remember, assault Marines don't NEED drop pods, as jump infantry can deep strike. so you might be able to drop pod those veterns, and just deep strike your Assault Marines

 krodarklorr wrote:
If they had changed Ordnance to actually not be terrible, I'd use my Monolith once more. I miss him...

I don't klnow if this was from 6th or not but in 7th with ordnance you get to roll two dice and pick the highest when rolling for pen. its something right?

Oh Banshees...

They have their uses, but you're overestimating s3. Against t4, Warlocks are going to wound more than twice as often (2/6 vs 5/6), and have a 4+ invuln, which is better than a 4+ armor. Banshees might be slightly more deadly to MEQ, but they aren't notably deadly to anything less, and can't touch anything more. Send them up against either T5 or 2+, and they can't do squat. Send them up against T3 4+, and they just don't kill enough.

As for the Exarch, the small number of attacks coupled with the only a marginally a high S (s5ap2 iirc), and you're not safe against even a naked Sarge (2 attacks or 3 on the charge, 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, each attack has less than 50% chance of wounding its ideal target). Somehow, mine has actually lost both challenges its been in with Marine seargents (one just had a chains word +pistol even). Good, but not great.

For a few more points, you can get Scorpions. Their Warriors are slightly worse versus MEQ, but much better against everything else (s4 is huge). And their Exarch should punk any sarge, and many HQs, with ease. With move through cover, assault grenades, and infiltrate, they can almost always get where they eamt faster. With 3+ and Stealth, they can take a lot more punishment. And they can even throw out some s3 at i10 just for kicks.

No matter how you slice it, banshees just aren't good in this edition assault-wise. They still get a slot in my Swordwind, but rarely do they outperform other units.

Although, there was the time 4 aspects warriors killed 7 Marines in melee after the Exarch wiffed...

 Ailaros wrote:

JubbJubbz wrote:You can give them the fearless banner but its an inordinate amount of points and the model carrying will die when you need it most.

Or you don't put the banner in the front of the squad.

Or you attach a lord to your ~400+ point ubersquad and they become fearless.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also see things like this:

Wyzilla wrote:That doesn't however remove the fact that Warp Talons can end up costing you a fourth of the average sized army, and are only really useful when fighting Space Marines.

Warp talons have everything going for them that rough riders and howling banshees do. Just because they're Ap3 doesn't make them worthless, it just makes them GROSSLY underrated.

Warp talons are still fast, and they still basically ignore terrain. They still, when your opponent sets up right for you to exploit it, have the ability to deepstrike. And with 3+/5++, and T4, and the ability to be made T5 or 4++, they're a LOT more survivable than those other options. And they get fear for free, and a blind attack you'll almost never get to use.

And they're S4, and they're shred, which means they're a much more serious threat to monstrous creatures. There's a lot going on for them here.

Yes, like rough riders and banshees, they're going to be much easier to use in a strictly defensive role, but with deepstrike, at least, they have the ability to play zone defense better, and will have a much easier time doing things like picking off back-field objective holders.

And to say they're only good against marines is beyond silly. What they do to marines, they also do to firewarriors and crisis suits, and warriors and certain other TMCs, and they will certainly put the fear of the emperor into a guard blob. 10 MoK warp talons will kill 24 guardsmen on the charge. So much for the invincible pile of infantry. And any infantry squad that's not fearless, well, makes a fear test.

Like banshees and rough riders, they can blow away chaff units no problem, but they're also really good against most of the mid-level hitters and small squads that rely on not having a massive pile of attacks thrown at them. Heck, warp talons will even beat terminators.

And, like the other options we're talking about, at a discount to whatever they're likely killing. With speed and flexibility to boot.

Warp talons are still super useful, and that's before you start using them as a deepstrike bodyguard for a sorcerer or brand lord.

How would you reccomend them for the fluffy slaaneshi Night Lords army I'm building/intend to build? Current builds I've been thinking off is either one Warp Talon squad, max units with a Mark of Slaanesh to increase their initiative (most useful for power-fist Aspiring Champions) coupled with a Sorcerer built to spam invisibility on them. Or three full squads of Warp Talons taking the Mark of Slaanesh with an invisibility casting Sorcerer to fill up my Fast Attack.

Unless of course I choose to go unbound. I really do love the new 7th Edition. Took long enough.

Definitely give them the +1 Init mark. The thing they exist to do is slaughter MEQ, and if you can hit before I4 then you give them an edge over anything other than Halberd GK.

30 I can see being pretty lethal, if costly, as they are guaranteed to survive in some number and can then go rampaging. It would work like the choppy version of mass Stormtroopers, trading damage on the drop for the 'oh gak next turn we're dead' effect they will have on the opponent. Most armies can't kill 30 MEQ with a 5++ in a single turn if they're concentrated against half or less of of the army, and then when they do survive, they're going to tear something a new one.

Have you considered pairing them with some allied Demons? More units for DS saturation may help their survivability.

Bharring wrote:They have their uses, but you're overestimating s3.

Or you're underestimating the quantity of attacks.

Bharring wrote:Against t4, Warlocks are going to wound more than twice as often (2/6 vs 5/6), and have a 4+ invuln, which is better than a 4+ armor.

And are nearly twice as expensive, and you can only take one squad of them.

Bharring wrote: Banshees might be slightly more deadly to MEQ, but they aren't notably deadly to anything less, and can't touch anything more.

This is only true if there's nothing else in the entire game with an armor save of Sv3+ or worse.

And there are those things.

Wyzilla wrote:How would you reccomend them for the fluffy slaaneshi Night Lords army I'm building/intend to build?

The strange thing is that they're actually not that dissimilar to the rest of a slaanesh army - they're fast, they ignore cover saves, and they're primarily good against infantry. In a way, the way you support warp talons in a slaanesh list is the same way you support noise marines. Bring a bunch of anti-tank and a little more anti-MC, and the warp talons will do against anything else.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:

My problem with them is that though they don't compete in role with the drop podding flamer-wielding assault marines, they do compete for drop pods.

well remember, assault Marines don't NEED drop pods, as jump infantry can deep strike. so you might be able to drop pod those veterns, and just deep strike your Assault Marines

Yeah, the jump packs let them deepstrike.

Anyways, DA vets are just like sternguard. Turn 1 piece traders.

Except they're even more deadly because they can be used in conjunction with a turn 1 deathwing assault. Having a few units of terminators show up turn 1, and ALSO a bunch of combi-melta/plasma assassinating whatever is good against those terminators can be rather nasty.

I like people trying to say Banshees are good. Just math hammering it out, 10 banshees lose to 10 marines. The T3 and walking speed (battle focus is no more than running for these women) mean that you get slaughtered by even bolters. Once you get in combat banshees only get 2A so are only marginally better than marines and the marines will outnumber them > 2-1.

To show how bad banshees are, GW created Death Cult Assassins and gave them to nearly every single army with the Inquisiton update. 3A, 10 points, 5++ save, possible scoring, power weapon mixing (while banshees get FAQ'd to only swords), cheaper transports, and cheap ablative wounds. Yet nearly no one takes them.

No, banshees are just horrid. I would agree with the general consensus that they are the worst unit in the game.



Harlequins are a bit on the odd side. On one hand, the shadowseer is a HUGE liability and drains warp charges from other psykers just to cast the only thing that keeps the squad alive. On the other hand, i used them all the way back to 4th with their 40 rending S4 attacks on the charge being able to wipe almost anything. I do like still using these guys as an escort for Eldrad now and again. Eldrad is often able to grab Fortune to protect these guys if the Veil goes down while the Veil means Eldrad can focus on casting all his stuff on other things in the army. At worst, Eldrad's Warlord trait means the Harlequins can at least run into cover and get a pretty decent cover save. Also, Eldrad is a boss in challenges where the shadowseer you want to keep as far away as possible from challenges.


For me, i want Yriel to be good. He was such a boss in 5th-early 6th with nearly every list i had using him. Owning both Craftworld and Corsair armies he was the bridge between them. Yet in the 6th codex he is just awful. Up in points, even more vulnerable to S6+, AP3, forgot how to throw his spear, lost S9 vs vehicles, and lost a BS and WS. He was a maybe-take for most people in 5th-6th but GW apparently saw the need to wreck him nearly as hard as possible.

just to keep things on track (because I'm really liking this thread so far), remember that the point of the OP was not to determine which unit is *best*, but rather how best to use a given unit that we already know *isn't* top tier...

zephoid wrote:I like people trying to say Banshees are good. Just math hammering it out, 10 banshees lose to 10 marines.

Yes, if you run banshees straight at them out in the open and subject them to a few turns of getting boltered. But NO unit in the eldar codex does that well when you play them like a guard army.

If you play them like eldar, where you compare two tac squads to a squad of banshees in a serpent, and keep them safe from most of the bolter fire and be able to handle the marine squads much more one at a time (the way they're supposed to be used), then they get a whole lot better.

Even if the tac squad gets a turn to double tap, the banshees will still win that engagement.

Banshees are like warp talons and rough riders for a lot of reasons, and one of them is that if you just charge them straight up the field they're going to get killed before they get to do anything. It's easy to make the math show that. It's also why you don't use them that way.

 zephoid wrote:
To show how bad banshees are, GW created Death Cult Assassins and gave them to nearly every single army with the Inquisiton update. 3A, 10 points, 5++ save, possible scoring, power weapon mixing (while banshees get FAQ'd to only swords), cheaper transports, and cheap ablative wounds. Yet nearly no one takes them.

No, banshees are just horrid. I would agree with the general consensus that they are the worst unit in the game.

DCA aren't 10 points each. They'd see a lot more use if they were.

But I'd give the 'worst unit ever' distinction to either Flayed Ones or Mandrakes. Probably Mandrakes. They're literally useless. Banshees at least can wreck face if they hypothetically get into combat. Can anyone even think of a way to make flayed ones matter? Because I really can't.

Belac Ynnead wrote:
Can anyone even think of a way to make flayed ones matter? Because I really can't.

Take 20, Infiltrate them. Chaaarge! If they infiltrate at 12" from the enemy then you're in combat T2 at the latest, if you deploy 18" inches away then you're still in charge range T2. It gives the enemy a maximum of two shooting phases to down 20 T4 4+sv models while also dealing with the rest of your army (they work well with a Veil Cryptek blob for more in-your-face threats) before they're in combat and tearing stuff up with 4A each on the charge. The enemy HAS to kill them all to be safe, so the rest of your army can get around untouched for a turn or two (allowing you to close the range gap that Crons can suffer from)

Taking 2 squads of 15 achieves something similar, but with a greater threat range, more durability and more flexibility.

 Ailaros wrote:

Even if the tac squad gets a turn to double tap, the banshees will still win that engagement.

A single round of double-tapping tac squad shooting will kill 4 banshees and cripple the squad.

Girls are down to 6 models. They'll assault and lose one more on average to overwatch, then kill two marines on the charge. After that, they'll be killing one marine per turn.

Combine that with the fact that they won't be assaulting until turn 3 at the earliest, and you begin to see the problem. They will never kill ANYTHING unless it's already almost dead when they get there, but at that point it's not the Banshees doing the work, its just game physics. A guardsmen squad can tie up a 5 man tactical squad for four turns.

9 banshees + archon with grenades + raider should be better than wyches. If you are bringing DE and Eldar then your opponent has a wraith knight and a couple of wave serpents to deal with instead of the "terrible" banshees. They could in theory and with the proper amount of cover, reach their target and assault with minimal casualties. I just ordered a set of banshees because I think they look cool, might give this a go.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Even if the tac squad gets a turn to double tap, the banshees will still win that engagement.

A single round of double-tapping tac squad shooting will kill 4 banshees and cripple the squad.

Girls are down to 6 models. They'll assault and lose one more on average to overwatch, then kill two marines on the charge. After that, they'll be killing one marine per turn.

Combine that with the fact that they won't be assaulting until turn 3 at the earliest, and you begin to see the problem. They will never kill ANYTHING unless it's already almost dead when they get there, but at that point it's not the Banshees doing the work, its just game physics. A guardsmen squad can tie up a 5 man tactical squad for four turns.

You're assuming a worst-case scenario. If you're sending a fragile assault unit to attack a full strength squad without any covering fire then of course they're going to be in trouble, but that's why you try and take a wound or two off the squad first. Even 2-3 casualties will make the odds a lot more favourable, as will attaching a character for tanking/pleb-whacking duties (an Archon with the 2++ might be nice here). Add in the fact that you should be looking to set up multiple charges (if they shoot the Banshees they don't shoot the Scorpions/Wyches/Warlocks and vice versa) and it should work out a lot better.

Saying that assaulting a naked ten-man tactical squad is the "worst-case scenario" is interesting considering that I do it on a daily basis with my Daemon and CSM lists, using units that are on average cheaper ppm than banshees.

That assaulting something as completely impotent as a ten-man tac squad is considered the "worst case scenario" for Banshees is a reflection of how terrible a unit they really are.

Explain to me why you're spending a minimum of 190 points on a unit that can ONLY kill an enemy unit that's already been neutered by the rest of your army, and can ONLY survive long enough to make it into combat with that crippled unit if you manage to suppress or threat overload your opponent to the point where they can't be bothered to shoot at the banshees a single time?

edit- To clarify, I'm not trying to be a negative nancy and gak on everyones' donuts, here. I don't think it needs saying that Banshees aren't really all that great of a unit- that's why they're being discussed in this thread in the first place. I just want to motivate people to try to think outside of the box. The suggestions put fourth thus far to make the Girls serviceable on the table-top rely too much on obscure situations that any decent opponent is easily going to be able to avoid.

It's a mathematical fact that the Girls are gak against MEQ. The only time they're not gak against MEQ is when they outnumber a MEQ unit by like 100 points' worth of models- but then what unit in the game isn't not gak against MEQ when it's got a 100 point advantage?

So, forget MEQ. What are Banshees actually good at killing in any decent amount of time? Ideas?

Belac Ynnead wrote:

Can anyone even think of a way to make flayed ones matter? Because I really can't.

I personally use 15 with an Overlord. The Overlord has MSS, Gauntlet of Flame, Res-Orb and Sempiternal Weave.

Everyone says they stink because they can't deal with TH/SS Termies, or some other dedicated CC unit....... why the feth would you even try? They're a cheap unit that can utterly massacre IG, Guardians, Fire Warriors etc and that's what they're meant to do. As a bonus, most people underestimate them instantly and therefore don't even consider them a threat and don't deal with them until it's too late.

In my games, they Outflank and sometime later on in the game they come on field. First turn on field, I'll move them to cover. At the most they only have to eat a round or two of shooting, and as I said before most people won't even dedicate much shooting at them in the first place. They're actually quite tough with their armour save + cover save + 50% res chance. Then next turn you charge something juicy. Even if you charge something nasty like a Daemon prince etc., the MSS on the lord will interdict it. Also, if you get charged instead, the Lord can overwatch with his Gauntlet.

Out of all the games where I've run this exact build, they've killed more points than they've lost. Sure sometimes it's quite marginal, but they're not the utter catastrophe everyone says they are. Hell, this one game, my opponent say before hand, "Why are you using Flayed Ones? They're gak!"..... later on in the game, he loses a 30 man IG squad complete with heavy weapons and other gubbins to their first charge. After that he focused them, but they survived long enough to get another charge off. Just point them at the right stuff and have fun!

Possessed kind of get gak on but they make really good objective holders and are good to take as allies for Chaos Daemons as they have armour. With Cursed Earth they're pretty decent plus they have objective secured.

If you just take them as humdrums their pretty decent.

Banshees would eat Dark Reapers something fierce. But then what wouldn't? I can't think of much t3 3+ outside of Eldar. Their optimal target is ostensibly MEQ, and they do edge out other options under ideal circumstances, but not by a decent margin, and those circumstances are quite narrow. And other options really kick the snot out of them outside those very narrow conditions.

Bharring wrote:
Banshees would eat Dark Reapers something fierce. But then what wouldn't? I can't think of much t3 3+ outside of Eldar. Their optimal target is ostensibly MEQ, and they do edge out other options under ideal circumstances, but not by a decent margin, and those circumstances are quite narrow. And other options really kick the snot out of them outside those very narrow conditions.

I can see them doing well against Crisis Suits, CSM and other 3+ Sv models without ASTKNF, as they have the potential to sweep them. Also things like Fire Warriors, IG Grenadiers, Cron warriors and other 4+ infantry are probably fair game as well.

Eldar have access to a number of things that cause pinning or blind. If you wanted to use banshees, it might be worth putting some of that in your list to help them get into combat a little safer.

I think the thing to remember with some of these " lesser used " units is that in context of point by in for upgrades it's when purchased in Large Squads w/ multiple upgrades they become worth it.

Take Possessed at a low squad number horribly expensive but when you get into huge squads it becomes pretty worth it.

20 Models of Possessed come out to 600 points with all the fixings, Mark of SLaanesh, Icon of Excess, 2 Gifts

Comes out to 31 points per model for a unit that has a 3+ save, 5++ invulnerable, and a 5++ Feel No Pain w/ Objective secured if you are playing Crimson Slaughter.

I got 16 genestealers and a broodlord and i'm always left wondering why can't field 16 broodlords and 1 genestealer.

 Desubot wrote:
As much as i love him i can bring my self to bring out CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED as he almost costs a quarter of my points always. amidoingitright?

he pays for himself by replacing voxes army wide, only at high points or if you are me and have a vox in every unit

ashikenshin wrote:I have yet to build my second monolith because I don't know what to make with two.

Stick it on a Tomb Citadel and watch your enemy's mind break.

milkboy wrote:Repentia get mixed reviews.

One way which I use them is as a countercharge unit for backfield defence as I usually leave small units to hold objectives or have Retributors as a firebase. Alternatively, it would be the usual load into a Rhino for forward purposes.

One thing I've wanted to try would be to bubble wrap them with a large sisters unit. Saves them for when the drop pod comes down and unloads marines or when assault troops DS near my main group. Protects them from fire and hopefully they get to blend marines with their 3+ FNP and 6+ invuln saves.

Have you tried mounting them in a Land Raider? Or better, a Spartan Assault Tank? They certainly chew through superheavies and Terminators.

zephoid wrote:I like people trying to say Banshees are good. Just math hammering it out, 10 banshees lose to 10 marines. The T3 and walking speed (battle focus is no more than running for these women) mean that you get slaughtered by even bolters. Once you get in combat banshees only get 2A so are only marginally better than marines and the marines will outnumber them > 2-1.

To show how bad banshees are, GW created Death Cult Assassins and gave them to nearly every single army with the Inquisiton update. 3A, 10 points, 5++ save, possible scoring, power weapon mixing (while banshees get FAQ'd to only swords), cheaper transports, and cheap ablative wounds. Yet nearly no one takes them.

You need to meet more Sisters players.

Otto Weston wrote:

Belac Ynnead wrote:

Can anyone even think of a way to make flayed ones matter? Because I really can't.

I personally use 15 with an Overlord. The Overlord has MSS, Gauntlet of Flame, Res-Orb and Sempiternal Weave.

Everyone says they stink because they can't deal with TH/SS Termies, or some other dedicated CC unit....... why the feth would you even try? They're a cheap unit that can utterly massacre IG, Guardians, Fire Warriors etc and that's what they're meant to do. As a bonus, most people underestimate them instantly and therefore don't even consider them a threat and don't deal with them until it's too late.

Sounds like you've had some good luck. Personally, I find that they appear, they get shot, they die. Point for point, Scarabs do their job better.

Rough riders aren't great, but they are cheap. And the first time I fielded mine they took down a haruspex, so that was cool. Ima keep experimenting with them.

Hellhound, for some reason now costs more than an eradicator. Bane wolf is half as good as a slightly more pricey LRBT. And Devil Dog is inferior to a vanquisher for the same price. I really wish I could make use of their speed, but the equivalent leman Russes boast more than triple the range.

Bullgryns are just a crazy point sink, but they do some damage when they get into combat. I'm pairing them with a biomancy Primaris for combat fun and ld9.

Demolishers...everyone is wrong, demolishers have always been and will continue to be amazing.

 TheSilo wrote:
Rough riders aren't great, but they are cheap. And the first time I fielded mine they took down a haruspex, so that was cool. Ima keep experimenting with them.

Hellhound, for some reason now costs more than an eradicator. Bane wolf is half as good as a slightly more pricey LRBT. And Devil Dog is inferior to a vanquisher for the same price. I really wish I could make use of their speed, but the equivalent leman Russes boast more than triple the range.

Bullgryns are just a crazy point sink, but they do some damage when they get into combat. I'm pairing them with a biomancy Primaris for combat fun and ld9.

Demolishers...everyone is wrong, demolishers have always been and will continue to be amazing.

Y'know, I've been wondering, is it possible to ally in a biker SM HQ of some sort and attach them to the RRs? I'm thinking no, but it was a thought.

Also, Hellhounds have never let me down. Ever.

I want to like Bullgryns, but I can't justify the points, or the models. I really don't want to field an elite squad of Wilfred Brimley's.

Eh, Demolishers never earn their keep for me. Must be a luck thing.

 Frankenberry wrote:

Y'know, I've been wondering, is it possible to ally in a biker SM HQ of some sort and attach them to the RRs? I'm thinking no, but it was a thought.

This is very much possible. Worth it? Probably not - A SM character on bike is toughness 5, which is wasted when your RR lowers the average to 3. I know this is about making units work, but that'd be taking a wokring unit and breaking it badly. You also lack access to FnP, which is granted by the command squad you often roll your SM character with.

 Frankenberry wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:


Y'know, I've been wondering, is it possible to ally in a biker SM HQ of some sort and attach them to the RRs? I'm thinking no, but it was a thought.

Its entirely possible 10 man unit with 1 power axe, the rest hunting lance with an attached White scars bike chaplain gives you 10 fearless fast move through cover guys that will eat most MEQs for like 240. but the problem being they are still T3 which pretty much kills em.

But honestly for nearly the same price i could just ally in a squad of GKs with halberts that do exactly the same thing :/
Its why i feel its a bit meh to use psyker crutches as they make anything good.

With no real way to scout them or get them into better positions i dont think they are worth it.

Bike or jump pack SM characters both work (i think jump is slightly cheaper)

at least with chaplain you get rerolls to hit on first strike which is very important i feel. then being fearless is a major bonus i think. + WS CT gives you hit and run IIRC.

 Frankenberry wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
Rough riders aren't great, but they are cheap. And the first time I fielded mine they took down a haruspex, so that was cool. Ima keep experimenting with them.

Hellhound, for some reason now costs more than an eradicator. Bane wolf is half as good as a slightly more pricey LRBT. And Devil Dog is inferior to a vanquisher for the same price. I really wish I could make use of their speed, but the equivalent leman Russes boast more than triple the range.

Bullgryns are just a crazy point sink, but they do some damage when they get into combat. I'm pairing them with a biomancy Primaris for combat fun and ld9.

Demolishers...everyone is wrong, demolishers have always been and will continue to be amazing.

Y'know, I've been wondering, is it possible to ally in a biker SM HQ of some sort and attach them to the RRs? I'm thinking no, but it was a thought.

Also, Hellhounds have never let me down. Ever.

I want to like Bullgryns, but I can't justify the points, or the models. I really don't want to field an elite squad of Wilfred Brimley's.

Eh, Demolishers never earn their keep for me. Must be a luck thing.

I always loved hellhounds, especially when they were only 75 points and blew up all the time. But, unlike ogryns which are a middling specialist unit, each hellhound variant is pretty much strictly inferior to their corresponding Leman Russ variant with the 7th ed points reductions. Eradicator has S6 Ap4, ignores cover, large blast at 36" range. Not to mention the vastly improved armor. All for 5 points less than a hellhound. Vanquisher has armorbane at 72" while the Devil Dog only has armorbane at 12" for the same price, and again with much better armor (if you want blast Ap2, sentinels do it better and cheaper). And the Bane Wolf, 8" range versus a LRBT 72" range, for about 20 points.

There's nothing quite like landing a direct hit with a demolisher on a unit of Grey Knight paladins and chapter master. Insta-death a 250+ point unit.

My ogryns regularly perform well by stifling enemy assault units, but it's always a question of whether another Leman Russ could have simply erased that unit from the table on turn 1. Having no assault vehicles also hurts the ogryn case. I'm still trying out straight bullgryns.

For rough riders, as pointed out, you lose a lot of the point taking a biker marine. Can you get jet pack librarians? I really wish I could put a Primaris Psyker, Priest, or a Commissar on a horse. It's relatively easy to hide rough riders behind an obstacle and then to pounce once the enemy gets in range, probably best to give them two flamers to narrow down the overwatch. I take psykers a lot, I'll have to try buffing the riders.

TheSilo wrote:Hellhound, for some reason now costs more than an eradicator.

You know, it took me awhile to finally come around on this one, but I think their points costs actually make sense between the two of these.

Firstly, look at the firepower. I don't think many people will argue that the eradicator cannon is better than the inferno cannon. Yes, the russ has range, but it's mostly negated by the hellhound's speed (making it so that the inferno cannon will also be in range), and torrent is definitely better than large blast. Displacement against large blasts cuts down to 3 easily, whereas with torrent it's still 4, and that takes some pretty serious shenanigans. And it works better with terrain, especially with how ruins work now.

The vehicle damage chart changed slightly in favor of the hull multimelta over the lascannon as well, and given the hellhound's speed, you're more likely than usual to get into melta range.

This just leaves the fact that the russ can take sponsons, which is a loss (but it's the difference between HS and FA), but, once again it's a bit more complex than that. Russes are uber-slow, which makes their multimeltas a defensive weapon, and their real long range punch is from plasma cannons, which can hurt the tank. This just means that they can take heavy flamers (which will never get used) or heavy bolters (but given that you can buy a stubber with the cost, isn't THAT much of an advantage). As such, the russ is just better, but, in a way, it sort of NEEDS to be in order to make up for mobility problems.

As for survivability, they are both equal in close combat, and they both have mid-range side armor. It's just the front that the russ really shines. Once again, there is some amount of need here, though. Without speed, cover is going to be harder to get, unless you're just parking them behind an aegis, which means they're doing nothing more than sitting and shooting and there are times, especially with new missions, where that's actually somewhat of a liability.

To add to all these little reasons, there's also another small, but important one - the eradicator is sort of a waste of a russ. Once you start getting higher up in points levels, you're going to need to start doubling up russes into squads, and the eradicator pairs well with... nothing. If you had, say, three vanquishers, it's going to be much better to throw points into a hellhound which can run around and do its own thing, rather than getting paired up with an anti-tank weapon, or forcing a pair of vanquishers into a squadron, leaving them vulnerable to overkill and close combat.

In the end, I suppose it's not clear-cut, and it's more a bunch of small things that differentiate them without there being an obvious winner. They both do sort of the same thing for basically the same price, just in a different way.

Which is, you know, how it should be.

Shame about the devil dog, though.

I would argue that an Eradicator pairs quite well with a Punisher. Not that Force Org slots are any sort of limiting factor these days, unless you're looking at tournaments. Steel Host formation, doubled up CADs, a pair of Russes in the HQ slot, etc.

What sets the Hellhound apart, for me, is its status as a Fast vehicle that will always hit what it's shooting at.

But why would a punisher and an eradicator pair well?

I mean, the punisher is going after light infantry out of cover, heavy infantry and monstrous creatures because of weight of firepower, and light vehicles. The eradicator is going to go after light infantry in cover, and... not a whole lot else.

Not to say that it's not useful to be able to flush light infantry out of cover, of course, but there isn't very much overlap with the punisher outside of possible light infantry outside of cover, but the punisher does that far and away better anyways that you might as well just take another punisher.

So, one that I'd ask about, when talking about alleviating shelf leave: the LRBT?

It went from being pretty good against vehicles in 4th ed, to being somewhat decent in 5th, to being pretty crappy in 6th, to being downright awful in 7th. Meanwhile, LRBTs were never good against monstrous creatures, which you almost never saw in 4th, and now practically every army can spam them in 7th. They've never been good against terminators, and still aren't, and they went from a respectable light infantry killer to a horrid one once the main gun caused them to snap fire the rest, and once they added in credible alternatives like eradicators, exterminators, and punishers. And then made those tanks all cheaper than a regular russ.

I mean, seriously. Why would you ever take one of these nowadays?

I love the Hellhound to death, it's one of my favorite units in the codex. But god damn is it inefficient compared to the Eradicator. I mean, say what you want about the reliability of flamer templates versus blast weapons, the fact of the matter is that all it takes is a single unit to get into assault with a HH and it's a goner. The same is true of any Russ, but the Eradicator is rocking a 36'' range gun versus an 18'' one. The Hellhound can get off a shot turn 1, but it better kill everything within 18'' of it or else its toast. In a match I played against my bud's Mech IG a few weeks ago, he put an entire HH squad up the board turn 1 and roasted my Khorne lord and his ten man squad of beserkers. He killed eight of the beserkers, then on my turn 1 I assaulted the squadron and wiped the whole thing out with just the Lord's AoBF attacks, before the beserkers could even swing. The rules for assaulting non-walkers is just too punishing on short-ranged vehicles.

I really think a major mechanic that needs to be implemented in 40K is that all vehicles should be able to move-shoot-move. So like, the average vehicle can have 12'' of movement that can be allocated throughout your movement and run phase. They can move 12'' in the movement phase and not move at all in the run face, or 0'' in the movement phase and 12'' in the run phase. 6'' and 6'', or 5'' and 7'', whatever- and they shoot in between phases. Vehicles that have "fast" can have 18'' to allocate. To prevent "pop-tarting", a rule called "momentum" would exist, which allows a vehicle to move in any direction in the movement phase, but prevents it from moving in the opposite direction in the run phase. So a Leman Russ couldn't move forward in the movement phase than back up in the run phase, or vice versa. This prevents the encouragement of gun-lining by having vehicles pop out from behind Los-blocking terrain, taking a shot than moving back behind terrain.

Skimmers would not have the momentum rule, emphasizing their incredible maneuverability.

The overall goal of the mechanic would be to allow vehicles to fire their weapons and at least have a chance of escaping melee. With a hellhound I could move up 12'', fire its weapon at a squad, than move 6'' to the left, potentially putting it out of charge range of most standard infantry and MC's- in a sense doing a "drive-by". This would still allow most fast units like jump/jet infantry to catch it though, which is a good thing.

- - - -

Anyway... wish-listing aside. I think the Hellhound and its variants are best used as defensive weapons. I've used them in the past to run interference on any units gunning for my leman russes or other vital squads. They're a decent reactionary unit. They can also be good for psych'ing out my opponents. When deploying first, I've often put down a squadron of them, looked at one of my opponent's units, then gave him a knowing glance like "yeah, ur gonna get it m8".

And then I watch him swallow and put that unit in the opposite corner of his deployment zone from my hellhounds... well out of range where it could do the most damage to my forces.

 Ailaros wrote:
But why would a punisher and an eradicator pair well?

I mean, the punisher is going after light infantry out of cover, heavy infantry and monstrous creatures because of weight of firepower, and light vehicles. The eradicator is going to go after light infantry in cover, and... not a whole lot else.

Not to say that it's not useful to be able to flush light infantry out of cover, of course, but there isn't very much overlap with the punisher outside of possible light infantry outside of cover, but the punisher does that far and away better anyways that you might as well just take another punisher.

At Str6, I'm not shooting a Punisher at Light armor unless it's AV 10. Glancing on 5's or worse does not a target make, in my mind. There are other Russes better suited to the task. MCs I can see, to a degree, but with most of those rocking T6 I'd much rather shoot them with an Exterminator, Vanquisher, or Executioner given the option of tanks. Hitting and wounding on 4's is... eh.

Both, however, love to shoot infantry. I've had entire tac squads cleaned up from an Eradicator volley, rocking hull HB and HB sponsons. Not the average to occur, I'll grant, but weight of wounds is what it is. And paired together there's no safety to be had. If you crouch in cover, the Eradicator kills you. Advance, and the Punisher... well, punishes you.

The Punisher is strength 5.

And it's actually pretty reliable at murdering vehicles from AV10 to AV11. Knocking off 3 hp's on average from AV10 and 2 on average from AV11.

And that's not even considering when you put Pask in it.

Pask in a punisher will reliably kill anything AV12 and under, and will knock 2 HP's off an AV13 vehicle and 1HP off an AV14 vehicle.

Even a Punisher that's not Pask, but simply in his unit, will take off ~3 HP's from AV12.

Those are all better results than if you were using a Vanquisher.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The Punisher is strength 5.

And it's actually pretty reliable at murdering vehicles from AV10 to AV11. Knocking off 3 hp's on average from AV10 and 2 on average from AV11.

And that's not even considering when you put Pask in it.

Pask in a punisher will reliably kill anything AV12 and under, and will knock 2 HP's off an AV13 vehicle and 1HP off an AV14 vehicle.

Even a Punisher that's not Pask, but simply in his unit, will take off ~3 HP's from AV12.

Those are all better results than if you were using a Vanquisher.

My mistake, I overestimated it's damage.

And Pask in Punisher is a completely different animal.

Better results they may be while looking at sheer HP stripping power, but a Vanquisher can one-shot a vehicle. A Punisher distinctly lacks this capacity. Not to mention how grossly a Vanquisher outranges a Punisher. But the kicker is - that wasn't even the tank I'd suggest for stripping low AV. Exterminators would be my pick of the litter for that duty.

BlaxicanX wrote:he put an entire HH squad up the board turn 1 and roasted my Khorne lord and his ten man squad of beserkers. He killed eight of the beserkers, then on my turn 1 I assaulted the squadron and wiped the whole thing out with just the Lord's AoBF attacks, before the beserkers could even swing.

To be fair, this is an exceptionally bad matchup for hellhounds.

Yes, they're more vulnerable to assault by slow-moving footsloggers with blistering numbers of high-S attacks in close combat, but there aren't very many of those you're going to see most of the time. More often, you're going to come up against shooters, or fast CC threats against which the hellhound isn't THAT much more vulnerable than a russ.

BlaxicanX wrote:I really think a major mechanic that needs to be implemented in 40K is that all vehicles should be able to move-shoot-move.

Ugh, MSM is the worst mechanic in the entire game, please don't add it to anything else.

Because what we need is hellhounds that can jump out from behind a wall, fire its inferno cannon, and then disappear out of line of sight, being immune to shooting and close combat the next turn...

BlaxicanX wrote:They can also be good for psych'ing out my opponents.

That's certainly true.

In a way, an eradicator is just another russ. It can be handled like another russ. A hellhound has the potential for far, far more horrific damage if you're not SUPER careful with deployment, which means yeah, they do tend to get rather a great deal of attention. Particularly useful in a mech list, given that they saturate with artillery and, more importantly, chimeras.

obsidiankatana wrote:At Str6, I'm not shooting a Punisher at Light armor unless it's AV 10. Glancing on 5's or worse does not a target make, in my mind.

Against AV10, you get 10 hits for 3.3 hull points stripped - or a dead vehicle, or two, actually, given that many of them are only Hp2. Throw in heavy bolters and it gets even moreso. Even against AV11, though, assuming the heavy bolters, that's 2.5 hull points, or, in other words, a dead vehicle.

Punishers have the weight of fire to reliably handle both AV10 and AV11, and there's plenty of that to be found. Meanwhile, the eradicator is mostly hopeless against that target type, being only one shot and not ordnance.

Yes, a vanquisher is going to be better at anti-tank than a punisher, but that doesn't mean that an eradicator has the same target types as one.

 Ailaros wrote:

Against AV10, you get 10 hits for 3.3 hull points stripped - or a dead vehicle, or two, actually, given that many of them are only Hp2. Throw in heavy bolters and it gets even moreso. Even against AV11, though, assuming the heavy bolters, that's 2.5 hull points, or, in other words, a dead vehicle.

Punishers have the weight of fire to reliably handle both AV10 and AV11, and there's plenty of that to be found. Meanwhile, the eradicator is mostly hopeless against that target type, being only one shot and not ordnance.

Yes, a vanquisher is going to be better at anti-tank than a punisher, but that doesn't mean that an eradicator has the same target types as one.

Bit of restatement from the other gent I responded to, since these posts fired off relatively close to each other.

Most AV10-11 vehicles that spring to mind are HP3, but then I don't face many Sentinels or Warwalkers. I do face Rhinos, Chimeras, Raiders, and the like. So a Punisher may kill any of the above in a volley (may, because Chimeras don't often present side, and Raiders rock jink and/or flickerfield). But that same weight of fire that may squish a transport will also sweep up squads of infantry whole-sale. It's easier to wound them than to put damage on a vehicle, and easier to catch them than a vehicle (lumbering behemoth and a 24'' gun being what it is).

Now I'm not saying that it's bad at killing AV 10/11. Numbers speak for themselves. But I'm saying that it's equally adept, if not more so, at killing infantry. Which Eradicators also love to shoot at. Not that an Eradicator rocking triple heavy bolters isn't going to do anything to AV10/11, because it will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And again, for low AV HP stripping, I suggest the Exterminator. Not the Vanquisher.

 Ailaros wrote:

Ugh, MSM is the worst mechanic in the entire game, please don't add it to anything else.

Because what we need is hellhounds that can jump out from behind a wall, fire its inferno cannon, and then disappear out of line of sight, being immune to shooting and close combat the next turn...

Did you actually read my post dude?

Because I SPECIFICALLY addressed this EXACT sentiment, like three lines later...

 obsidiankatana wrote:

My mistake, I overestimated it's damage.

And Pask in Punisher is a completely different animal.

Better results they may be while looking at sheer HP stripping power, but a Vanquisher can one-shot a vehicle. A Punisher distinctly lacks this capacity. Not to mention how grossly a Vanquisher outranges a Punisher. But the kicker is - that wasn't even the tank I'd suggest for stripping low AV. Exterminators would be my pick of the litter for that duty.

That's a fair point about exploding, but honestly... I think that in 7th edition if you're *trying* to explode any vehicle rather than going for its hull-points, you're setting yourself up for failure. Against any vehicle that's not open topped, it's only getting the explodes result on a 6... a 17% chance. On open-topped vehicles it's causing an explodes on a 5+, a 33% chance.

if we were to take a Pask-Vanquisher and use it as an example, once you factor in the to-hit rolls and pen chance, the tank is maxing out at a 38% chance to one-shot an open -topped AV10 vehicle. That chance drops down to 25% against standard AV10, and then drops rapidly, bottoming out at a 15% chance against AV14.

So a Vanquisher has a *chance* to one-shot any vehicle in the game, something the Punisher can't claim. But it's going to struggle to explode any vehicle in the game as well.

Sentinels, warwalkers, vypers, venoms, warbuggies, killa kanz, piranhas, land speeders, and stormtalons all have Hp2, and can usually come in squads, which means a single punisher can reliably kill two simultaneously in a single volley. And, of course, things with Hp3 they can handle plenty well, also.

The strange thing is that the punisher is actually the best weapon against AV10. Due to rate of fire, it's better than a vanquisher and even an exterminator. The same is even true for AV11 as well, as shocking as that sounds.

It's the best russ for handling light vehicles, which makes pairing it with a eradicator almost as bad as pairing an eradicator with a vanquisher in that regard.

Meanwhile, the punisher will certainly hose down light infantry in the open, but if they're in the open, then they're probably displaced, which means that the eradicator is out of its element. Meanwhile, the eradicator will do a pretty good job with infantry in cover (especially with those pesky 2+ cover saves that several of them can get), while a punisher will struggle pretty badly here. A punisher may be good against terminators, but that's because killing 3 models out of a 5 man termie squad is a pretty big deal. Killing 3 models out of a 10-man scout squad, on the other hand, sort of isn't.

So even against the one unit type they overlap with, they still don't overlap ALL that well. Meanwhile, there is an awful lot of divergence. It doesn't make sense to dwell on one data point and ignore all the rest. The two don't really pair ALL that well.

Also, I bet it was missed because I put it in an edit to a previous post, but what about the LRBT?

BlaxicanX wrote:Because I SPECIFICALLY addressed this EXACT sentiment, like three lines later...

Not well.

So the tank dashes between two pieces of tall terrain instead of back and forth between the same one. The end effect is the same.

"Plus, 'back in the same direction' is going to be a clunky mechanic that would be argued over about as much as the direction of the arrow on the scatter die, I'd think.

Part of my reasoning for the pairing was because they both enjoy shooting infantry, but at different times. Their combination means you can't hide in cover and can't safely advance. What ever you happen to be facing primarily dictates which tank sits in front for the squadron. I will grant the benefits of the punisher against Av10 2hp, but my perspective here is likely skewed by local meta. Of your listed units I see exactly two, and infrequently at that. It may be numerically superior to other tanks against Av11 3hp, I haven't run those numbers since I'm turning in here for the night. What you see as a divergence in rolls though, I see as flexibility in target selection. Eradicators, especially with 3 HBs, aren't terrible vs AP 10/11. Punishers are good at killing infantry. The only divergence I really see are the extremes of 2+ cover and MCs.

As for LRBTs? Unsure if you mean to find uses or to pair with eradicators. Single blast templates with no supporting fire and BS3 don't impress me. Steel host gives them some kick with preferred enemy for the former. I think they're a bad match for eradicators, simply because of the AP difference between the shots and how valuable cover and spread is against a LRBT, while spread also helps vs eradicators.

Okay, well, I'm not going to get into it too much in this thread. It's off-topic and we all know how you feel about JSJ, so.

 Ailaros wrote:
But why would a punisher and an eradicator pair well?

I mean, the punisher is going after light infantry out of cover, heavy infantry and monstrous creatures because of weight of firepower, and light vehicles. The eradicator is going to go after light infantry in cover, and... not a whole lot else.

Not to say that it's not useful to be able to flush light infantry out of cover, of course, but there isn't very much overlap with the punisher outside of possible light infantry outside of cover, but the punisher does that far and away better anyways that you might as well just take another punisher.

So, one that I'd ask about, when talking about alleviating shelf leave: the LRBT?

It went from being pretty good against vehicles in 4th ed, to being somewhat decent in 5th, to being pretty crappy in 6th, to being downright awful in 7th. Meanwhile, LRBTs were never good against monstrous creatures, which you almost never saw in 4th, and now practically every army can spam them in 7th. They've never been good against terminators, and still aren't, and they went from a respectable light infantry killer to a horrid one once the main gun caused them to snap fire the rest, and once they added in credible alternatives like eradicators, exterminators, and punishers. And then made those tanks all cheaper than a regular russ.

I mean, seriously. Why would you ever take one of these nowadays?

On the issue of move, shoot, move. The easiest fix is to let vehicles flat out in the assault phase, moving only straight forward (from whatever their alignment was in the shooting phase). So you could retreat, but that means putting your rear armor towards the enemy. But this could allow for nifty drive bys or L maneuvers without disrupting the game too much. And most vehicles only flat out 6" anyway.

On the hellhound issue, AV 14/13/10 is so much better than 12/12/10. And even a long range torrent will put you in assault range from most assault units, and crew shaken makes you unable to fire your flame cannon. I still use the hellhound variants occasionally in pick up games. I don't know how to fix it, maybe give it transport capacity 6, so I can squeeze special weapons squads in there or something.

I prefer the eradicator over the punisher because it is 20 points cheaper, less reliant on BS, and has Ap4. It is so deadly against Tau, Orks, Guard, and Necrons. Ap - on the punisher is what kills it for me, and it only wounds Orks/Marines on 3+. Pask in a punisher, from what I've heard, is incredible, but you are paying 210 points for that. And I have a thing about spending more than 200 points on a model.

But none of those things have to do with the Make a Unit Work thread. So, Leman Russ Battle Tank. It is still a glorious choice, mostly because Space Marine players seem to be allergic to cover. The key is the S8, which will insta-death Tyranid warriors, venomthropes, zoanthropes, kill Necron immortals, and insta-death most characters in the game. The problem is that my demolisher can reliably do all these things (albeit at much shorter range). I'm beholden to the LRBT, cause back in 3rd edition we didn't have eradicators, and the exterminator cost $20 more. Really it is only worthwhile against Marines, Eldar, and Tyranids, however that's like 50% of the players out there.

The LRBT was decent against Eldar bikes before they got a 4+ jink, but that's still better than a 3+ fortune re-roll that they'd have otherwise. It was also a great anti-vehicle squadron choice, able to hit multiple vehicles, but the 7th ed change to the damage chart put an end to that. Combined with the points reduction in 5 of the other 6 LR variants, the LRBT is a tough sell. While it'll theoretically insta-death lots of things, the big MCs will have T5 or better and marines will put their characters in 2+ armor. For 5 more points you can get an executioner with 3x S7 Ap2, which'll probably get the job done better and will put more wounds on MCs (it also has 11 rear armor vs the LRBT 10).

There are lots of little moments where you will be happy taking a LRBT, when it insta-kills a unit of 'Nid warriors, or wipes out a marine assault squad, or catches some Chaos Marines or aspect warriors in the open. I'd say its primary attribute is that it will make your enemy hug cover, disrupting his game plan. But then again, a basilisk will do the same job for 25 points less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
Sentinels, warwalkers, vypers, venoms, warbuggies, killa kanz, piranhas, land speeders, and stormtalons all have Hp2, and can usually come in squads, which means a single punisher can reliably kill two simultaneously in a single volley. And, of course, things with Hp3 they can handle plenty well, also.

The strange thing is that the punisher is actually the best weapon against AV10. Due to rate of fire, it's better than a vanquisher and even an exterminator. The same is even true for AV11 as well, as shocking as that sounds.

It's the best russ for handling light vehicles, which makes pairing it with a eradicator almost as bad as pairing an eradicator with a vanquisher in that regard.

Meanwhile, the punisher will certainly hose down light infantry in the open, but if they're in the open, then they're probably displaced, which means that the eradicator is out of its element. Meanwhile, the eradicator will do a pretty good job with infantry in cover (especially with those pesky 2+ cover saves that several of them can get), while a punisher will struggle pretty badly here. A punisher may be good against terminators, but that's because killing 3 models out of a 5 man termie squad is a pretty big deal. Killing 3 models out of a 10-man scout squad, on the other hand, sort of isn't.

So even against the one unit type they overlap with, they still don't overlap ALL that well. Meanwhile, there is an awful lot of divergence. It doesn't make sense to dwell on one data point and ignore all the rest. The two don't really pair ALL that well.

Also, I bet it was missed because I put it in an edit to a previous post, but what about the LRBT?

BlaxicanX wrote:Because I SPECIFICALLY addressed this EXACT sentiment, like three lines later...

Not well.

So the tank dashes between two pieces of tall terrain instead of back and forth between the same one. The end effect is the same.

"Plus, 'back in the same direction' is going to be a clunky mechanic that would be argued over about as much as the direction of the arrow on the scatter die, I'd think.

The problem is that most of those vehicle squads are fast, and it's futile to chase them down with a 6" move 24" punisher. The executioner and exterminator have better range and S for hunting light vehicles.

When firing against T3 Sv4+ infantry in the open, the punisher is going to hit 10 times, 8.3 wounds, 4.2 kills. So unless the eradicator is hitting fewer than 5 guys, the eradicator will do the job better (even more so against T4), and with 36" range the eradicator will have a much better selection of targets than the punisher, all for 20 fewer points. Outside of a tank commander, I don't see the appeal of the punisher.

Well, the problem with the LRBT is that its damage profile is nearly the same as an eradicator, except the eradicator is way cheaper and ignores cover.

One of the things to remember with the IDing thing is that any other russ (save the demolisher) can take a lascannon and multimeltas and also ID things, and they're not stuck snap-firing if you shoot the main gun.

Furthermore, things you kill with ID you kill by conventional means as well. Tyranid warriors are a great example of this actually. If you hit a squad of three (which is half the time), you have a half chance again of wiping the squad in one hit. That's not that great. Realistically we're looking at at least three shots to pull it off, assuming they don't have cover (which they at least somewhat likely would against a battlecannon). Meanwhile, over those same 3 turns a punisher puts down 12 wounds on that warrior squad. Indeed, they're likely to end the warriors in just 2 turns, and much more consistently than a single scatter die rolling a few times.

The punisher is just better against something that's pretty much served up for the LRBT to be good against. And that's not even giving the punisher the heavy bolter sponsons which would really chew those warriors up, and still have them cost the same price. The only way this is really going to work is against large squads of stuff that is either T3 or 4 and also has multiple wounds on each model, and that don't naturally gravitate towards cover or have a 2+ save. Units such as...

I'm really trying to find something, but battlecannons are just so bad.

I guess you just sort of have to look at what it has that makes it different. It does have a long range, true, but so does a vanquisher, and, honestly, the 48" threat range of the exterminator is scarcely ever going to be without targets. I mean, even the 42" threat range of an eradicator or executioner will usually be good enough if you don't place it in the very corners of the board. The benefit here, then, is pretty marginal over everything but the punisher or demolisher.

Meanwhile, it is Ap3, but that makes it just an HP stripper against vehicles, which puts it up against the punisher, exterminator, and vanquisher against vehicles. Meanwhile, against infantry you've got to compare it against the punisher (weight of fire) and the demolisher and the executioner (both Ap2).

I feel like S8 ordnance isn't good enough against vehicles with its Ap for only being heavy 1. A heavy 2 battlecannon that had some amount of RoF to stand up against the other anti-tank and anti-MC russes, then maybe, but not as-is, especially if it's stuck snap-firing hull weapons. Meanwhile, I do actually respect Ap3 against infantry, but when you could have a tank for much cheaper that's Ap4 ignores cover, or is going to kill more marines thanks to weight of fire...

It's just that whenever you compare it, the LRBT is always a third class weapon. This might be somewhat excusable if it were the versatile choice in a world full of specialists, but this isn't true when everything else can take great hull weapons, and when there are tanks that beat the LRBT in several categories simultaneously.

I mean, I guess the one possible redeeming quality of it being both ordnance and large blast is that it could, in theory, strip multiple HP from vehicles simultaneously. Yes, basilisks and manticores both do this much better, but at least the russ is tougher than those things... when the artillery isn't completely out of LOS. Even here, though, without ignoring cover...

And as for the idea of giving vehicles MSM, I'll only be interested when you come up with a way of doing it that doesn't make mech gunlines even more powerful than they already are. Wave serpent lists don't need to be able to gunline any better than they already can, thank you very much.

I'm not going to be that guy who asks how do we get mandrakes to work. BUT I will be that guy who asks if there is anyway to make their HQ version, Kheradruakh, be at all useful? Besides taking away a decent amount of shooting from you main force.

 MurderCarnival wrote:
I'm not going to be that guy who asks how do we get mandrakes to work. BUT I will be that guy who asks if there is anyway to make their HQ version, Kheradruakh, be at all useful? Besides taking away a decent amount of shooting from you main force.

With Dark Eldar you gotta share the pain. Put them with a haemonculous for fnp.

You guys think a "crusher-star" could be viable? Take 9 Blood Crushers for 405 points, upgrade one to the Blood Hunter and take an etherblade for 25 points, that gives the unit 40 strength 6AP3 attacks and 6 strength 6 AP2 attacks on the charge at WS5.

Attach a Juggerherald and take the grimoire and an etherblade for 140 points. That'll give them a 3++ which will handle most of their durability problems.

So for 535 points, you've got 40 Strength 6 AP3 attacks, 12 strength 6 AP2 attacks and strength 5 hammer of wrath attacks on the charge. They've also got 30 T4 3++ wounds on a 12'' chassis.

At 1500 points, that gives you ~1000 points to fill in with troops and other goodies. If you want the Grimoire to be a sure thing, take Fateweaver and that still leaves you 700 points for cheap Daemon troops. You can also throw in a portalglyph somewhere if you're hurting for more bodies.

- - - -

A far easier alternative to Fateweaver and the Grimoire would be to simply take Belakor and have him spam invisibility. Considering you'll only have ~7 warp-charges per round unless you take lots of Horrors, though, he won't have enough juice to use a whole lot of other powers. So you're essentially paying 350 points for invisibility.

Well it comes down to the whole Invisibility makes everything viable.

And them being a boat load of ap3 hits is nice however its a unit that can easily be locked with a Walker with av 12-13 front will lock em forever. so that's something to worry about.

That's a fair point, and I think that you could say that about most units. Screamerstar or Khornedogs are helpless against an AV13 walker.

But when you have a 12'' move, you should be able to avoid most of those threats pretty decently.

Though if it came down to it, you could always purchase a greater etherblade instead. That bumps the herald and blood hunter up to strength 7 on the charge.

Arnt screamers those crazy armorbane melta dudes? I think they got nerfed but they can still deal with it i think

Dogs for sure sucks to get av13nd its also why i love divination over telepathy, it gives you a chance at misfortune so they CAN deal with em.

I want to believe that Bloodcrushers can be made to do work. You have the right idea of it - they hit hard and crush most things into paste no problem, but they need the durability to cross the board with some fight left in them.

To come back with the HH vs Eradicator debate, the only flaw the eradicator has is that is is a large blast; which is sure it'll scatter horribly when you need it to hit straight.

HH is at it's best as a big counter assault unit, OR with Warlord trait #1 (D3 outflanking) to have them outflank and get both line breaker and burn back field units (which is usually either weak, long range weaponry or weak infantry unti taken only to hold back field objective)

Id have to lean in with the Eradicator as it IDs T3 models (which is kinda important with people running nurglings/ various heralds lately as well right off the bat you will generally be in range to hit basically anything.

the HH speed and range can be completely countered by counter deploying, and with the loss of consistent TACTICAL GENIUS its really tough to depend on outflank.

The thing basically Must survive a turn without getting a single pen, otherwise its ether dead or 100% useless.

 Desubot wrote:

The thing basically Must survive a turn without getting a single pen, otherwise its ether dead or 100% useless.

If you have more than 1 Hellhound, and more vehicles that aren't Hellhounds, it's pretty likely they will not take penetrating hits on turn 1.

Maybe keeping the hellhound in reserve is the answer, target anti armor on turn 1, and then bring in the hellhound for counter attack.

 TheSilo wrote:
Maybe keeping the hellhound in reserve is the answer, target anti armor on turn 1, and then bring in the hellhound for counter attack.

Or you highland charge them. NASGuard was one of my favorite ways to play. The whole, "hey, nice deployment zone, mind if I borrow it?" strategy.

Desubot wrote:Eradicator as it IDs T3 models

So does an inferno cannon.

BlaxicanX wrote:So for 535 points, you've got 40 Strength 6 AP3 attacks, 12 strength 6 AP2 attacks and strength 5 hammer of wrath attacks on the charge. They've also got 30 T4 3++ wounds on a 12'' chassis.

Ick. I mean, expensive, but still, something is getting horribly destroyed every turn. You can ALMOST make your points back by killing nothing but guard platoons, I'd hate to see what happens when you charge something more expensive than chaff.

As for mandrakes, I'll link to this.

On the Hellhound debate, it's worth it mainy because it's a fast tank, IMO. My Hellhounds tend to survive pretty well, because they are usually either well-supported by massed infantry (the two units giving each other mutual support), or being protected by big brother Russes. I must admit I rarely run the Hellhounds up in the open. They tend to sneak up the flanks under cover. At that stage of the game I would also have around 70 infantry rushing forwards up one flank or another, while 2 LRBT and 2 other Russes (Executioner, Exterminator), and another platoon hurl massed firepower into the enemy to support the advance. A Vendetta would join them in the carnage. Also, the Hellhound is the only tank I have in the armory that can keep up with the infantry rush (because the infantry would move, move, move in early game). Lastly, I guess it's a sentimental thing. My Hellhounds are the old ones with the metal bits

Reading this thread though, I must admit that among the toughest to use without resorting to Battle Brothers allies are the Harlequins. On the upside, you always have the option to save the points on the Shadowseer (I would save all my Deny dice to deny that power), but you would probably need Invisibity to get these guys into combat. They would still be awesome in a dense Cityfight though (except perhaps against Tau), which is kinda fluffy - sort of.

 Ailaros wrote:

Desubot wrote:Eradicator as it IDs T3 models

So does an inferno cannon.

Bah was thinking it was just a heavy flamer :/ didn't realize it was an inferno

 Ailaros wrote:


As for mandrakes, I'll link to this.

That's a really in depth analysis and I like it. I think if you get them a haemonculous they get fnp and baleblast, frankly they'll be way more effective than wyches. I'll try it out.

But both of those units are inferior to beast packs. Kymarae have a 4+ invul and more attacks. And wracks are cheaper than mandrakes anyway.