Problem came when I was discussing new sw tactics with my friends.
My is opninion that it counts as S9. In main codex it goes like this "If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values." Both Thunderwolf Cavalry and power fist count as wagear and they all changes S.So Multiple Modifiers rules is triggered and should be applied.
However some of my friends said Thunderwolf Cavalry are born with S5.You cannot subtract the value and then use the rule above.
What do you think? Does the "be born with" logic make sense?
Paradigm wrote: Thunderwolves have S5 base, so yes, it doubles to S10. The wolf is part of the profile, not an upgrade.
But when it comes to the wolf lord it should be S9? When using power fist wolf lord is poorer than thunderwolf cavalry? Sounds unreasonable.I knew this is based on background. But is just make me feel bad.
Doesn't the addition of a thunderwolf modify the profile itself and change the unit type, much like a bike or jetbike, while weapons like power axes are simply S+1 and don't actually update the profile? A bike changes the T value on the profile, so you use the updated value to determine ID. Why would the S value be any different for things like power fists?
HIWPI would be that since the profile is changed, a powerfist would be S10.
ClassicCarraway wrote: Doesn't the addition of a thunderwolf modify the profile itself and change the unit type, much like a bike or jetbike, while weapons like power axes are simply S+1 and don't actually update the profile? A bike changes the T value on the profile, so you use the updated value to determine ID. Why would the S value be any different for things like power fists?
HIWPI would be that since the profile is changed, a powerfist would be S10.
Same here. This is exactly how I would play it. In my opinion a Thunderwolf won't changes the basic profile and therefor the only real modifier is the weapon. I can see how it would be up for debate though.
And don't forget..... That powerful gets Rending thanks to the thunderwolf!
It kind of sucks that they'd end up strength 9 due to the application of the proper rules when the thunderwolf cavalry has the strength 5 included in their profile as it's base statistic already and is therefore strength 10 with a power fist.
This is the same problem that the Striking Scorpion exarch ran into...
With crushing blow, the model gets +1 strength, meaning its strength stat is now 4 instead of three, but people are divided as to whether the model gets the static addition or does it only apply in CC.
I would agree that the model becomes the new strength characteristic, therefore the models base strength gets multiplied and thats it.
"a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks, and Wounds characteristics by 1"
This is an increase to the base characteristic and essentially replaces the models profile. Therefore a Wolf Lord with Thunderwolf Mount will be Base Strength of 5 and hitting with Strength 10 if using a Power Fist.
CanisLupus518 wrote: "a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks, and Wounds characteristics by 1"
This is an increase to the base characteristic and essentially replaces the models profile. Therefore a Wolf Lord with Thunderwolf Mount will be Base Strength of 5 and hitting with Strength 10 if using a Power Fist.
Except the rule doesn't say that. It says you increase the S by 1, nothing about it changing the value in their profile.
Models with a Thunderwolf mount change their unit type to Cavalry, as described in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. All close combat attacks made by a model with a Thunderwolf mount have the Rending special rule. In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+ 1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its final Strength is 9 (4 × 2 = 8, 8 + 1 = 9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+ 1 Strength’ and ‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore + 1 Strength and set it at 8).
I would say an increase is a modification to a characteristic. It's also called out as a bonus, which further has the implication it doesn't become the new base stat, but a bonus to the models stat.
So str = (4x2)+1 = 9
that it was already included in the profile of some models does not take away that its a +1 modification to a stat from wargear.
fwiw this is the same reason thunderwolf calvary which are listed as Strength 5 would also be strength 9 with a 2x str item.
Models with a Thunderwolf mount change their unit type to Cavalry, as described in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. All close combat attacks made by a model with a Thunderwolf mount have the Rending special rule. In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+ 1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its final Strength is 9 (4 × 2 = 8, 8 + 1 = 9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+ 1 Strength’ and ‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore + 1 Strength and set it at 8).
I would say an increase is a modification to a characteristic. It's also called out as a bonus, which further has the implication it doesn't become the new base stat, but a bonus to the models stat.
So str = (4x2)+1 = 9
that it was already included in the profile of some models does not take away that its a +1 modification to a stat from wargear.
fwiw this is the same reason thunderwolf calvary which are listed as Strength 5 would also be strength 9 with a 2x str item.
Personally I think this a dreadful argument. The thunderwolf is Base stat strength 5. So with a powerfist it's strength 10. No arguments required. No ambiguity.
If you shoot a multi Melta at a chapter master on a bike does it instant kill him? No. Because after 5th we were told that his profile is upgraded by the addition of a bike. The thunderwolf is the same.
Models with a Thunderwolf mount change their unit type to Cavalry, as described in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. All close combat attacks made by a model with a Thunderwolf mount have the Rending special rule. In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+ 1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its final Strength is 9 (4 × 2 = 8, 8 + 1 = 9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+ 1 Strength’ and ‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore + 1 Strength and set it at 8).
I would say an increase is a modification to a characteristic. It's also called out as a bonus, which further has the implication it doesn't become the new base stat, but a bonus to the models stat.
So str = (4x2)+1 = 9
that it was already included in the profile of some models does not take away that its a +1 modification to a stat from wargear.
fwiw this is the same reason thunderwolf calvary which are listed as Strength 5 would also be strength 9 with a 2x str item.
Personally I think this a dreadful argument. The thunderwolf is Base stat strength 5. So with a powerfist it's strength 10. No arguments required. No ambiguity.
If you shoot a multi Melta at a chapter master on a bike does it instant kill him? No. Because after 5th we were told that his profile is upgraded by the addition of a bike. The thunderwolf is the same.
that it was already included in the profile of some models does not take away that its a +1 modification to a stat from wargear.
No, that is absolutely not the case - the base profile is the base profile, and the characteristic section of the beginning of the brb is very clear about how modifiers work. You use the base stat (5 for thunderwolves, 4 for characters who buy thunderwolves), then apply multipliers (2x), then apply additions/subtractions (+0 for thunderwolves, +1 for characters who buy thunderwolves). That means that models who are riding thunderwolves by default will be S10 with a PF, but models who buy it as an upgrade will be S9. A strange quirk of the rules, but not at all ambiguous.
Nope, theyre toughness 4+1, as the +1 is very definitely a modifier.
Youre told that, unlike previous editions, this T increase also counts for ID - howver if you had a psychic power that doubled their toughness, they wouldnt be T10 they would be T9, following the actual rules.
Anpu42 wrote: This argument went in circles until an FAQ fixed it.
He is supposed to have a S: 5 not S: 4 [5]
The Thunderwolf Mount Increases the S by 1, not Modifies it by +1, note the difference of the two key words.
Funny, changing a number from one to another is a modification - by definition.
What FAQ are you referring to? It's not a current one for sure.
I was a 6th Edition FAQ...which I don't seem to have anymore.
I remember that FAQ it was for the T thou, not S. Thunderwolf were the first mounted models to have T5 instead of T4(5) so the FAQ came to rectify that it wasn't a mistake. Nothing related to Str thou.
The exact Definition does not exist in either rule book.
However the term Increase is not exist under Modifiers
The word Modifier does not exits under Thunderwolf Mount.
So are different definitions.
There you go. Str 9. I'm a space wolves player and I happen to have a TWC with a Thunder hammer. I agree though. It's very clear. All thunder wolves are wargear now. Str9 it is! (And I'm going up against a wraithknight soon, d'oh!)
Anpu42 wrote: The exact Definition does not exist in either rule book.
However the term Increase is not exist under Modifiers
The word Modifier does not exits under Thunderwolf Mount.
So are different definitions.
OK, so when you claimed they were different key words, that was a lie?
"increase by 1" is synonymous with "add 1" in this case, meaning it is most definitely a modifier. You have to prove that it is not a modifier, and you cannot do so.
they call out that its a modification, and a bonus so their base stat is not T 5 S 5.
There are rules that tell us how to apply multiple modifiers in the rulebook.
Unless someone has a rule that overrides the specific entry for thunderwolf and says that thunderwolf changes the models base stats to X then I don't see how anyone could say it is not a modifier- it specifically says its an addition to the stat, and a bonus.
If it helps any, in the back of the new Wolves Codex it reads:
Thunderwolf Mount: Models with a Thunderwolf mount change their unit type to Cavalry, as described in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. All close combat attacks made by a model with a Thunderwolf Mount have the Rending Special rule. In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf Mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).
In any case, I think it goes that the base strength should be considered S5 to make the powerfist a S10 attack in the same way that an item of wargear increases a model's WS or BS. You aren't gonna spend points on equipment just to ignore it the entire game.
And if you think that's not the case then what about their Toughness, Attacks and Wounds? Does that mean they also aren't increased as well?
The only model in the SW codex that is not a vehicle with base str 5 is arjac.
"increases" "bonus"
these are modifiers.
there is a section in the rulebook on how modifiers work, especially in the instance of multiple modifiers.
(Sx2)+1
the points spent were not ignored, the modified the models base stat of 4 with a bonus that increases it to 5.
This is not the models new base strength but its modified strength.
of course T,W,A are increased but just likes strength they are modifiers to a stat. so if something doubled them they would be (statx2)+1 for thunder wolf.
just as furious charge increases Strength by 1, if the model charges with a powerfist and is normally strength 4 it is now Str (4x2)+1 not Str (4+1)x2
So lets look at the other Thunderwolf Riders
Harald Deathwolf: S5
Canis Wolfborn: S5
Thunderwolf Cavalry: S5
Thunderwolf Pack Leader: S5
None of them are S4[5]
Why would a Wolf Lord, Wolf Guard Battle Leader or Iron Priest then be S4[5]?
it doesn't stop that their stat is modified by a "bonus" that "increases" it and is called out under the wargear that does so, that the bonus is included in the profile.
blaktoof wrote: they are all str4 modified to str 5 by a bonus.
none of them are base strength 5.
GW doesn'twrite 4(5) in profiles anymore.
it doesn't stop that their stat is modified by a "bonus" that "increases" it and is called out under the wargear that does so, that the bonus is included in the profile.
not that the models new profile is x.
bonus
bonus = modifier
Where does it say that? They only come in one mode so that is their base strength. There's no such unit as unmounted Thunderwolf Cavalry, for all we know they're all Arjac level strong and just happen to be on wolfback.
So: Argument #1 That the Strength Increase is a Modifier making all Thunderwolf Models Strength 4[5]
Argument #2 That the Strength Increase is not a Modifier making all Thunderwolf Models Strength 5
Argument #3 That Only Special Characters on Thunderwolves and Thunderwolf Cavalry are Strength 5 and all others are Strength 4[5]
I‘ve found an old sw faq_v1.3 for 6e. And found two related question:
Q: Is the +1 Toughness from a Thunderwolf Mount considered bonus toughness , i.e . the model be comes Toughness 4(5), o are is it a modification to the base characteristic, i.e. the model becomes Toughness 5? (p 62)
A: Unusually for such bonuses, it is a modification to the base
characteristic. Effectively the two creatures have a combined
profile with Toughness 5. This is because the Toughness value
represents both the Toughness of the Space Marine and the
Toughness of the Thunderwolf (which is, if anything, more
impressive than even a member of the Astartes). It is not just
an enhanced Toughness for the Space Marine, as with a Space
Marine bike. After all, a Space Marine bike cannot react on its
own, and is useless without a rider, whereas a giant monstrous
wolf is still a tough customer!
Q: Is the +1 Strength from a Thunderwolf Mount a modification to the base characteristic? (p62)
A: Yes.
So in gw's logic the Thunderwolf Mount is a special modification and changes the base characteristic.And I believe they won't change that logic.So s10 for both thunderwolf calvalry and wolf lord with pf.
The thing is the Language Used
Modified: This is a term used to describe how to Modify an Attribute. The Game is very specific in its Language. Psychic Powers are very Specific +3 to Strength, -1 WS. Weapons use either S+2 [for Power Mauls] or Sx2 [Power Fist]. Never is the word IncreasedUsed in a Descriptor.
Increased: Tells you the Characteristics are Raisedby 1. Never one using the Word Modify.
As with most of the rules it is very Specific in what it does and what Rules govern them. The fact The Rule Thunderwolf Mount does not use the Word Modify does not once reference the Rule Modifiers or Multiple Modifiers.
nosferatu1001 wrote: OK, so youre back to making up key words again? Interesting.
No, "increase by 1" is a modifier. It is covered in the rules. Stop trying to make stuff up to support your interpretation.
It is very unlikely that they meant them to be S9, but that is the current rules.
Additionally, just to emphasize the point: in order to get to "5" from "increase by 1", you have to do the follwiing - 4+1 = 5
Its a modifier. Dont make rules up, it isnt healthy in a debate.
No I am not making up words
Increased by 1, that is strait from the Codex: Space Wolves.
All Modified Characteristics all have either +#, -# or X#, this does not exist with Thunderwolf Mount.
So a Thunderwolf Mount doesn't call out the increase as a bonus? Anywhere?
No it Increases Characteristics {Yes by Webster is a Modification, but we all know GW does what they want with English Language}, but it does not follow how The Rule: Modification operates. If it did it would have said +1 to the Following The Rule: Modification, but it does not.
nosferatu1001 wrote: OK, so youre back to making up key words again? Interesting.
No, "increase by 1" is a modifier. It is covered in the rules. Stop trying to make stuff up to support your interpretation.
It is very unlikely that they meant them to be S9, but that is the current rules.
Additionally, just to emphasize the point: in order to get to "5" from "increase by 1", you have to do the follwiing - 4+1 = 5
Its a modifier. Dont make rules up, it isnt healthy in a debate.
No I am not making up words
Increased by 1, that is strait from the Codex: Space Wolves.
All Modified Characteristics all have either +#, -# or X#, this does not exist with Thunderwolf Mount.
No, youre making up a ***key*** word.
How are you getting to 5? By doing4+1. Making it a modifier. Seriously, dont make up gak - we know what they likely meant, especially as there has been no substantive change to the rules for TWM, they just ballsed it up AGAIN.
RAW they are S9 with a powerfist. That is the actual, literal rules.
nosferatu1001 wrote: OK, so youre back to making up key words again? Interesting.
No, "increase by 1" is a modifier. It is covered in the rules. Stop trying to make stuff up to support your interpretation.
It is very unlikely that they meant them to be S9, but that is the current rules.
Additionally, just to emphasize the point: in order to get to "5" from "increase by 1", you have to do the follwiing - 4+1 = 5
Its a modifier. Dont make rules up, it isnt healthy in a debate.
No I am not making up words
Increased by 1, that is strait from the Codex: Space Wolves.
All Modified Characteristics all have either +#, -# or X#, this does not exist with Thunderwolf Mount.
No, youre making up a ***key*** word.
How are you getting to 5? By doing4+1. Making it a modifier. Seriously, dont make up gak - we know what they likely meant, especially as there has been no substantive change to the rules for TWM, they just ballsed it up AGAIN.
RAW they are S9 with a powerfist. That is the actual, literal rules.
I have played this RAW vs. RAI game before.
I see nothing that tells me that it is a Modifier other than Webster. My Group Sees this and others See this. If you can't then you see it a different way. This is why I left the thread for about 8 hours yesterday and am going to now before I start getting to mad to cool down easy.
A fair way of looking at it can also be handled in comparison to furious charge.
In the instance of furious charge, the model is not getting the +1 strength until it charges into combat and only for those attacks. In this example, if for some reason, one of these models had to take a strength test against a new helfrost weapon, it would be on whatever strength the model has base, not base + furous charge.
Flip this to the thunderwolf argument... if a thunderwolf model got furious charge, now possible due to relics, and got hit by a helfrost weapon, the model would test on his base strength, which is now 5 due to the thunderwolf, and not 6 with furious charge.
The fact that the thunderwolf model would only fail on a 6 is irrelevant. The point is that the model is now always strength 5 rather than only at a certain point in the game. It would appear that a modifier, according to GW, is something that occurs while the game is going on (case in point: hammerhand, furous charge, etc.) whereas the model gets +1 strength to its base characteristic before the game even begins, essentially creating a new character with a different statline...
So a Thunderwolf Mount doesn't call out the increase as a bonus? Anywhere?
No it Increases Characteristics {Yes by Webster is a Modification, but we all know GW does what they want with English Language}, but it does not follow how The Rule: Modification operates. If it did it would have said +1 to the Following The Rule: Modification, but it does not.
Really? It doesn't use the word "bonus" anywhere? Are you absolutely sure?
nosferatu1001 wrote: OK, so youre back to making up key words again? Interesting.
No, "increase by 1" is a modifier. It is covered in the rules. Stop trying to make stuff up to support your interpretation.
It is very unlikely that they meant them to be S9, but that is the current rules.
Additionally, just to emphasize the point: in order to get to "5" from "increase by 1", you have to do the follwiing - 4+1 = 5
Its a modifier. Dont make rules up, it isnt healthy in a debate.
No I am not making up words
Increased by 1, that is strait from the Codex: Space Wolves.
All Modified Characteristics all have either +#, -# or X#, this does not exist with Thunderwolf Mount.
No, youre making up a ***key*** word.
How are you getting to 5? By doing4+1. Making it a modifier. Seriously, dont make up gak - we know what they likely meant, especially as there has been no substantive change to the rules for TWM, they just ballsed it up AGAIN.
RAW they are S9 with a powerfist. That is the actual, literal rules.
I have played this RAW vs. RAI game before.
I see nothing that tells me that it is a Modifier other than Webster. My Group Sees this and others See this. If you can't then you see it a different way. This is why I left the thread for about 8 hours yesterday and am going to now before I start getting to mad to cool down easy.
Just the rules on modifiers, maths, and language telling you you're wrong, but that isn't enough?
Fair enough. Play whatever houserule you wish , just understand it IS, without a doubt, A modifier
the rule for thunderwolf mount calls out that its a bonus.
In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).
Your group can of course play it however they want, many groups do not follow the RAW of various parts of the game.
Multiple Modifiers If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+ 1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its final Strength is 9 (4 × 2 = 8, 8 + 1 = 9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+ 1 Strength’ and ‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore + 1 Strength and set it at 8).
does the wargear:Thunderwolf mount modify the models strength?
Furious charge has similar wording "adds +1 to its strength characteristic" (exact wording). Furious charge is used as an example in the multiple modifiers section. I want it to be strength 10, but it feels wrong.
yellowfever wrote: So are the str 9 supporters saying that a bike character can be instant by a rocket now.
Any Wound allocated to a model has the Instant Death special rule (see below) if the Strength value of that attack is at least double the Toughness value (after modifiers) of that model.
A character with a thunderwolf mount will have the base stat of strength 5 as this will always apply to the character, the powerfist double the strength of the character in CC.
Therefore the strength would be strength 10 in CC and strength 5 out of combat.
Lightning Wolf Lord wrote: A character with a thunderwolf mount will have the base stat of strength 5 as this will always apply to the character, the powerfist double the strength of the character in CC.
Therefore the strength would be strength 10 in CC and strength 5 out of combat.
Nem wrote: Looks to me they mean it to apply the changes to the profile, making it S5 the base characteristic.
They should have just left the brackets system in.
Which wouldn't have helped, as that still results in s9
It is almost certainly a cock up, but that's GW ...
Base characteristic and attack characteristic are different stats, and as such, are handled separately.
If Lysander gets a -1S effect, he is now s3, but his hammer still hits at s10, not nine. Similarly, if a Marine gets HH (+2S), his boltgun is still S4. These are cases of set values.
Almost always, melee weapons hit with an S that is a function of model's S. This could be Sx2, S+1, whatever. This game isn't intended to be dynamic. There are two ways this can be handled:
1) Calculate model S, feed that into the weapon function to get weapon S.
2) Take the model's base S, feed that into the weapon function, while simultaneously merging in the modifiers to the model S function.
The first is almost certainly correct because:
1) It was an old FAQ, not Eratta, that mentioned it, meaning it was clarifying what they saw as RAW, not updating the rules.
2) There is nothing in the rulebook that allows using the *unmodified* model strength for the weapon S function
3) There is nothing in the rulebook that allows the merging of two characteristic a calculation functions. Modifiers modify the characteristic they are assigned to, not others.
4) Model Strength is a relevant stat in its own right.
5) Logically, F(G(X)) requires that G(X) be calculated, then fed into F(). FG(X) can be determined, and is often useful, but matches, exactly, what you'd otherwise get (FG(X) = F(G(X))).
6) It's much simpler. If we decide to stack the modifiers of all source characteristics into one equation, things don't seem so complicated here, but they can get quite complex quite quickly ( how long before the first circular reference?)
At first glance, they both look like they're modifying the same characteristic. However, one modifies model S, and the other modifies weapon S. Weapon S may often be a function of model S, but they are distinct stats. Otherwise Hammer hands would make Boltguns devastating.
Not only is it clear that it was intended to be separate, they are also separate per RAW (reread weapon S). Furthermore, conflating the functions can choke the game, possibly breaking it in places.
RAW, RAI, and best idea are all model S 5, therefore weapon S 10.
Bharring wrote: 1) It was an old FAQ, not Eratta, that mentioned it, meaning it was clarifying what they saw as RAW, not updating the rules.
There are many examples of FAQ's (again not errata) outright changing rules. The 6th Ed Heldrake is a prime example. It allowed a model to completley ignore the Arc of Fire rule. This was no clarification.
Tyranid's have also had several rule changes through FAQ's over the years.
2) There is nothing in the rulebook that allows using the *unmodified* model strength for the weapon S function
There's also nothing in the rulebook allowing the modification of a base stat without considering it a modifier. There's nothing so suggest the rules for Modifiers or Multiple Modifiers should not be used.
China has a baby. +1 population. P = p+1.
India has a baby. +1 population. P = p+1.
Chinese population is [old]+1, not [old]+1+1.
Just because you use the same variable name for two different characteristics (model S, weapon S) doesnt make them the same characteristic.
I suppose on the FAQ vs Erratta, I was being overly generous to GW.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The +1T example was to provide a baseline showing that we all agree that modifiers to different stats aren't combined under 'multiple modifiers'.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I'm not arguing the is/isn't a modifier in this. The core disagreement must be:
1) What is a stat
2) or How to apply F(G(x)) where F and G are different stats.
'A Str modifier' can be a *model* str modifier or a *weapon* str modifier. Those are two different characteristics. I'm not talking about applying the same modifier twice, I was just showing that using the same name for two different modifiers might be confusing, but doesn't make them stack.
The Wolf makes the *model str* (old S) +1
The fist does *not* modify model S. If my Captain with a Relic Blade makes a S test, he does so as S4, despite having a s+2 weapon. This is where we disagree. The fist modifies the weapon S used in the attack, not the model S. As different characteristics, they are calculated separately. Look at the Furious Charge on a fixed-S weapon discussion.
Bharring wrote: 'A Str modifier' can be a *model* str modifier or a *weapon* str modifier. Those are two different characteristics. I'm not talking about applying the same modifier twice, I was just showing that using the same name for two different modifiers might be confusing, but doesn't make them stack.
The Wolf makes the *model str* (old S) +1
The fist does *not* modify model S. If my Captain with a Relic Blade makes a S test, he does so as S4, despite having a s+2 weapon. This is where we disagree. The fist modifies the weapon S used in the attack, not the model S. As different characteristics, they are calculated separately. Look at the Furious Charge on a fixed-S weapon discussion.
The Furios charge on fixed Str fails for two reasons.
1). User Str isn't used. So any modifiers to it are are irrelevent.
2). If you consider the Str of the weapon to be a set value modifer, then any + modifers are again irrelevent.
This doesn't mean they are calculated seperately, simply not relevent.
If the weapon uses the users Str characteristic, then they are not calculated seperatley.
That would make any Ork nob with a Power Klaw Str10 on the charge (or any other model with Str4 base, a powerfist and Furious Charge for that matetr).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zimko wrote: What are you trying to say? That modifiers to strength from special rules are calculated before modifiers to strength from weapon attacks?
Apparently so.
Ork Nobs have been Str10 for years and no one knew about it!! (that or he's mistaken)
Bharring wrote: 'A Str modifier' can be a *model* str modifier or a *weapon* str modifier. Those are two different characteristics. I'm not talking about applying the same modifier twice, I was just showing that using the same name for two different modifiers might be confusing, but doesn't make them stack.
The Wolf makes the *model str* (old S) +1
The fist does *not* modify model S. If my Captain with a Relic Blade makes a S test, he does so as S4, despite having a s+2 weapon. This is where we disagree. The fist modifies the weapon S used in the attack, not the model S. As different characteristics, they are calculated separately. Look at the Furious Charge on a fixed-S weapon discussion.
Weapon S is S: user x 2.
You have another modifier to the models S of +
The two together apply to the same characteristic. This cannot be debated.
As you gave two modifiers you MUST use the multiple modifiers rule.
If you disagree please cite done actual rules. Page and para, as per the tenets of this forum
Bharring wrote: China has a baby. +1 population. P = p+1.
India has a baby. +1 population. P = p+1.
Chinese population is [old]+1, not [old]+1+1.
How is that relevant at *all*?
Just because you use the same variable name for two different characteristics (model S, weapon S) doesnt make them the same characteristic.
Correct. The weapon's S is not the same as the model's S.
WeSt=MoStx2+1 because of multiple modifiers. It's in the rules clear as day.
And I'm not arguing the is/isn't a modifier in this. The core disagreement must be:
1) What is a stat
2) or How to apply F(G(x)) where F and G are different stats.
No, what you're arguing is that the bonus is applied once and never again considered thereafter, which is not at all what the rules actually say.
Apparently this is a settled question, and I'm wrong.
I'll look later to see if its clear whether its the what-is-a - stat thing, or the f(g(x)) thing, but either way, the game breaks without some willful ignorance now.
Lots of ugly implications.
Sorry I derailed the thread. Back to the is/isn't a modifier debate, I suppose.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (What I was trying to say was that trying to be both functional and procedural at all times with respect to calculations simply doesn't work. Substantial handwavium is required - and apparently used - to make it work.)
what part of "these bonus are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear" doesn't clarify the intent that it is a modification to the base characteristic, rather than a modifier to be applied later?
I'm honestly curious because it seems like the argument here is to prove that GW can't write clean rules - which we already know, rather than what was intended (specific example cited).
And I obviously missed the post above, who was making my suggested point.
Nope, because you multiply their base characteristic and the base characteristic in their profile is 5. As has been stated the thunder wolf modifies the base characteristic to a new number. There is clear precedent that the thunderwolf changes the base characteristic of a character with it as well as the previous FAQ clarifying it as such. Now we just need to wait until another one comes out I guess, but RAW right now is that characters that get it as a upgrade are str 9, and models that come with it are str 10.
increases their strength, toughness, attacks and wounds Characteristic by 1
The wording of "Characteristic" means it changes the profile permanently.
This is different to a weapon that modifies a characteristic is some instances.
e.g. Model is armed with a Wolf Claw and a Powerfist
In a given combat, he chooses to attack with the Wolf Claw, so the [Sx2] is not applied.
Similarly if he was hit with a Hellfrost weapon he'd have to take a strength test.... but you don't test at the Powerfists [sx2].... but if riding a Thunderwolf he would test at S5 because the Thunderwolf Mount increases the base characteristic
increases their strength, toughness, attacks and wounds Characteristic by 1
The wording of "Characteristic" means it changes the profile permanently.
This is different to a weapon that modifies a characteristic is some instances.
e.g. Model is armed with a Wolf Claw and a Powerfist
In a given combat, he chooses to attack with the Wolf Claw, so the [Sx2] is not applied.
Similarly if he was hit with a Hellfrost weapon he'd have to take a strength test.... but you don't test at the Powerfists [sx2].... but if riding a Thunderwolf he would test at S5 because the Thunderwolf Mount increases the base characteristic
Then don't post, as you have a) been rude by not actually reading hwt others have posted but b) have also ignored the actual full rule, which was already pointed out
I'd say intent was clearly Char stat becoming 5 and not "a bonus" so that it has the same stats as standard Thunderwolves. But until an FAQ, strict RaW will be S9 due to "bonus"....
Where are people reading that the Thunderwolf Mount grants +1 S? The actual wording says that “a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1”.
What is the model's strength characteristic? It isn't 4. It's now 5 as it has been increased as part of the upgrade. A power fist takes 5 and multiplies it by 2.
I see an increase to a base characteristic. Yes, it's referred to as a bonus in a parenthetical comment, but if I were to ask what the model's base strength is, what answer would I receive? I would say 5 as I've been told that models upgraded to have a Thunderwolf Mount have their strength increased by 1 (in this case, to 5). I'm specifically not told that the model receives +1 strength, which would imply base strength remaining at 4, but with a +1 modifier.
“Modifiers
Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc.), subtracting from it (–1, –2, etc.), multiplying it (×2, ×3, etc.) or even setting its value (1, 8, etc.). Attacks and Wounds are the only characteristics that can be raised above 10. A model’s Initiative cannot be modified below 1, and no other characteristic can be modified below 0.
Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its final Strength is 9 (4×2=8, 8+1=9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore +1 Strength and set it at 8).”
Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000 (Interactive Edition).” v1.0. Games Workshop, 2014. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
The Thunderwolf Mount isn't adding to, subtracting from, multiplying or setting its value. It is specifically increasing the value by 1.
I also don't see the word bonus in the above rules that tell us how to handle modifiers. Where is "bonus" defined as being a modifier? It's possible I'm missing a page reference. I didn't see one in the thread, but may have missed it.
A modifier is defined using the words adding, subtracting, multiplying and setting.
Increase is defined by Merriam-Webster as "to make greater".
You need to demonstrate that the word increase means to perform addition (it doesn't). You also need to demonstrate that the use of the word bonus indicates modifier status (this doesn't appear to be in the rules).
RaW, we don't appear to have any reason to believe that the base characteristic increase granted by the Thunderwolf Mount upgrade process is a modifier as defined by the BRB. As such, the multiple modifiers section doesn't come into play.
Increase does not equal addition and does not require addition to occur. I could just as easily get a number line showing all real numbers, locate 4 and then slide my finger 1 to the right. I've performed an increase process, but I haven't used addition.
Kriswall wrote: What is the model's strength characteristic? It isn't 4. It's now 5 as it has been increased as part of the upgrade. A power fist takes 5 and multiplies it by 2.
That's exactly how i read it too...
But we cannot deny that the rule states "Bonus" (it's IN the rule) and that a Wolf Lord with Thunder Wolf is at 4+1, only because under his S there is a 4.
Similar to how under S for TC it says 5, even if the book states that the +1 is already included in their profile (and therefore even Thunderwolf Cavalry are 4+1)
Kriswall wrote: A modifier is defined using the words adding, subtracting, multiplying and setting.
Increase is defined by Merriam-Webster as "to make greater".
You need to demonstrate that the word increase means to perform addition (it doesn't). You also need to demonstrate that the use of the word bonus indicates modifier status (this doesn't appear to be in the rules).
RaW, we don't appear to have any reason to believe that the base characteristic increase granted by the Thunderwolf Mount upgrade process is a modifier as defined by the BRB. As such, the multiple modifiers section doesn't come into play.
Increase does not equal addition and does not require addition to occur. I could just as easily get a number line showing all real numbers, locate 4 and then slide my finger 1 to the right. I've performed an increase process, but I haven't used addition.
So adding something is not increasing it? Interesting.
Bonus is defined by Merriam-Webster as "something good that is more than what was expected or required".
Again, nothing about adding, subtracting, multiplying or setting a value.
If I use this normal English definition, then I'm led to believe that a Thunderwolf mounted Wolf Lord gets a something good (an extra point of strength amongst other things) that is more than what was expected for non mounted Wolf Lords. In other words, he has a base strength characteristic of 5 instead of the expected 4.
Kriswall wrote: A modifier is defined using the words adding, subtracting, multiplying and setting.
Increase is defined by Merriam-Webster as "to make greater".
You need to demonstrate that the word increase means to perform addition (it doesn't). You also need to demonstrate that the use of the word bonus indicates modifier status (this doesn't appear to be in the rules).
RaW, we don't appear to have any reason to believe that the base characteristic increase granted by the Thunderwolf Mount upgrade process is a modifier as defined by the BRB. As such, the multiple modifiers section doesn't come into play.
Increase does not equal addition and does not require addition to occur. I could just as easily get a number line showing all real numbers, locate 4 and then slide my finger 1 to the right. I've performed an increase process, but I haven't used addition.
So adding something is not increasing it? Interesting.
I can add -1 to 4 and I come up with 3. I have decreased the original number. Adding something is most certainly not always increasing it. This is basic math.
Bonus is defined by Merriam-Webster as "something good that is more than what was expected or required".
Again, nothing about adding, subtracting, multiplying or setting a value.
If I use this normal English definition, then I'm led to believe that a Thunderwolf mounted Wolf Lord gets a something good (an extra point of strength amongst other things) that is more than what was expected for non mounted Wolf Lords. In other words, he has a base strength characteristic of 5 instead of the expected 4.
Kriswall wrote: A modifier is defined using the words adding, subtracting, multiplying and setting.
Increase is defined by Merriam-Webster as "to make greater".
You need to demonstrate that the word increase means to perform addition (it doesn't). You also need to demonstrate that the use of the word bonus indicates modifier status (this doesn't appear to be in the rules).
RaW, we don't appear to have any reason to believe that the base characteristic increase granted by the Thunderwolf Mount upgrade process is a modifier as defined by the BRB. As such, the multiple modifiers section doesn't come into play.
Increase does not equal addition and does not require addition to occur. I could just as easily get a number line showing all real numbers, locate 4 and then slide my finger 1 to the right. I've performed an increase process, but I haven't used addition.
So adding something is not increasing it? Interesting.
I can add -1 to 4 and I come up with 3. I have decreased the original number. Adding something is most certainly not always increasing it. This is basic math.
So then your argument is that the Bonus is a set value to S5?
Raw I have to say that at least for the models that dont have it default they are str 9, however for models that do have it they are str 10.
As much as I dont like it and past experiences tell us otherwise via FAQs and the like the wording for furious charge is similar enough to say that RAW it is that way. However I will not be playing it that way, nor will I expect anyone else to.
The word bonus in a parenthetical side comment is almost entirely irrelevant.
You still have to demonstrate that increase means adding. It doesn't. It is a side effect of certain types of addition, but isn't addition.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bonus can mean something that has been added, but can also just mean something extra. It's not specific enough to resolve the core dispute.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Besides "in addition to" doesn't refer to mathematical addition. Per dictionary.reference.com:
.
in addition to. Over and above, besides, as in In addition to a new muffler, the truck needs new brakes. [c. 1900 ]
S5 is over and above S4. There is no inherent requirement that 1 was added to 4 to come to 5. In fact, we are specifically told to increase 4 by 1, resulting in 5. Same result, different operation.
Kriswall wrote: You still have to demonstrate that increase means adding. It doesn't. It is a side effect of certain types of addition, but isn't addition.
So if increase isn't adding, what is it? Because if I increase something I add to it.
Interesting as to how if you look up "Increase" on Merriam-Webster, one of the synonyms is "add (to)".
I can add -1 to 4 and I come up with 3. I have decreased the original number. Adding something is most certainly not always increasing it. This is basic math.
Yes, otherwise known as subtracting. We are covering all the grounds for basic math here.
A bonus increase of 1 is definitely an addition, which the rules clearly cover.
What the rules clearly do not cover, is changing the base profile, as you claim.
4 + -1 is most certainly addition and not subtraction.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I'm done here. RaI seems painfully obvious. RaW might be up for debate, but at this point I'm debating basic math principles. I'm not an elementary school teacher.
''Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1. If
the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model’s standard wargear, this bonus is already included
on its profile.''
How do we handle other bikes which are not part of the profile? Implication of those words are Bonuses are not always char modifications subject to the modifiers rules... You can indeed have a bonus to the profile.
increases their strength, toughness, attacks and wounds Characteristic by 1
The wording of "Characteristic" means it changes the profile permanently.
This is different to a weapon that modifies a characteristic is some instances.
e.g. Model is armed with a Wolf Claw and a Powerfist
In a given combat, he chooses to attack with the Wolf Claw, so the [Sx2] is not applied.
Similarly if he was hit with a Hellfrost weapon he'd have to take a strength test.... but you don't test at the Powerfists [sx2].... but if riding a Thunderwolf he would test at S5 because the Thunderwolf Mount increases the base characteristic
Then don't post, as you have a) been rude by not actually reading hwt others have posted but b) have also ignored the actual full rule, which was already pointed out
It's a bonus
It's a shame that you ridicule me for not paying attention to what others have written, while totally failing to address the points I made.
Tenets of You Make Da Call wrote:1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.
increases their strength, toughness, attacks and wounds Characteristic by 1
So I'm reporting you for rule 1
Automatically Appended Next Post: The inclusion of a Thunderwolf mount creates a whole new unit with type "Cavalry" AND provides some rules for setting that unit's base attributes
karlosovic wrote: The inclusion of a Thunderwolf mount creates a whole new unit with type "Cavalry" AND provides some rules for setting that unit's base attributes
That's a not a modifier
That's a reset at new value
So it is a set modifier then? I like that even better, that means that Powerfists would hit with a strength of "increased strength by 1".
Though I'm not sure how you would compare that to Toughness.
karlosovic wrote:It's a shame that you ridicule me for not paying attention to what others have written, while totally failing to address the points I made.
No, I pointed out that putting "TL, DR" at the top of your post is rude. Which it is.
Oh, and I addressed the point. The rule states it is a bonus. You ignored that part of the rule.
karlosovic wrote:
Tenets of You Make Da Call wrote:1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.
increases their strength, toughness, attacks and wounds Characteristic by 1
So I'm reporting you for rule 1
Ah, wrong. I nevcer stated you did not read it, just that you ignored it - which you did, as the full rule, which you did not quote, mentions this is a bonus.
I'm sure this has nothing to do with the personal attacks on the other thread from you, of course.
karlosovic wrote:The inclusion of a Thunderwolf mount creates a whole new unit with type "Cavalry" AND provides some rules for setting that unit's base attributes
That's a not a modifier
That's a reset at new value
Ah, so its a set value? Cool, then powerfists strike at S5, as set value modifiers appear at a different point
The actual languae requires it to be a modifier (as you "add to" when increasing a numeric value), consistent use without 40k has it as a modifier, etc.
The thing is.... it's widely noted that Games Workshop can be a bit sloppy and ambiguous on their rules at times. I'm convinced that's where the "beers and pretzels" thing came from - it's a disclaimer from a group of people who are essentially just gamers who just want to have a bit of fun.
Unfortunately, there are those belligerent souls one the internet with nothing better to do than rack up twenty six thousand or so posts by dogmatically arguing obtuse points derived from their own person interpretation of "RAW"..... even though the "Rules as Written" are obviously not definitive (hence the page after page of resulting arguments).
What the adaptive amongst us do, is try to decipher the meaning of the written rule by looking at other examples, and using common sense to try and decipher the true meaning behind these unfortunate ambiguities.
The intent is usually clear to reasonable person, even where off-kilter arguments might bear cursory examination
karlosovic wrote: What the adaptive amongst us do, is try to decipher the meaning of the written rule by looking at other examples, and using common sense to try and decipher the true meaning behind these unfortunate ambiguities.
The intent is usually clear to reasonable person, even where off-kilter arguments might bear cursory examination
karlosovic wrote:The inclusion of a Thunderwolf mount creates a whole new unit with type "Cavalry" AND provides some rules for setting that unit's base attributes
That's a not a modifier
That's a reset at new value
Ah, so its a set value? Cool, then powerfists strike at S5, as set value modifiers appear at a different point
Again, you fail to read what I wrote.
"Base Attribute" would mean it's a value before modifiers
So S5
THEN you add the modifier of [Sx2] (=10)
I'm sure you know that Powerfists are not S5 on any Space Marine (in fact you go on to claim S9) so I can only reason that you're being deliberately obtuse and argumentative
Is that a breach of one of the rules ?
karlosovic wrote:The inclusion of a Thunderwolf mount creates a whole new unit with type "Cavalry" AND provides some rules for setting that unit's base attributes
That's a not a modifier
That's a reset at new value
Ah, so its a set value? Cool, then powerfists strike at S5, as set value modifiers appear at a different point
Again, you fail to read what I wrote.
"Base Attribute" would mean it's a value before modifiers
So S5
THEN you add the modifier of [Sx2] (=10)
I'm sure you know that Powerfists are not S5 on any Space Marine (in fact you go on to claim S9) so I can only reason that you're being deliberately obtuse and argumentative Is that a breach of one of the rules ?
Use the yellow triangle of friendship, and find out. I didnt fail to read what you wrote, I am making an assumption that your statements have something to do with the rules of 40k, and as such that youre talking about the only type of mdiifer left - a set value.
Can you provide a page and para for your assertion of "base attribute"? IT would help your argument immensely to back it up with something.
I also note in your quote mangling that you ignored where your assertion that you had quoted the whole rule was disproven. Can you please comment on how something explicitly defined as a
karlosovic wrote:The inclusion of a Thunderwolf mount creates a whole new unit with type "Cavalry" AND provides some rules for setting that unit's base attributes
That's a not a modifier
That's a reset at new value
Ah, so its a set value? Cool, then powerfists strike at S5, as set value modifiers appear at a different point
Again, you fail to read what I wrote.
"Base Attribute" would mean it's a value before modifiers
So S5
THEN you add the modifier of [Sx2] (=10)
I'm sure you know that Powerfists are not S5 on any Space Marine (in fact you go on to claim S9) so I can only reason that you're being deliberately obtuse and argumentative
Is that a breach of one of the rules ?
Use the yellow triangle of friendship, and find out. I didnt fail to read what you wrote, I am making an assumption that your statements have something to do with the rules of 40k, and as such that youre talking about the only type of mdiifer left - a set value.
Can you provide a page and para for your assertion of "base attribute"? IT would help your argument immensely to back it up with something.
I also note in your quote mangling that you ignored where your assertion that you had quoted the whole rule was disproven. Can you please comment on how something explicitly defined as a
BONUS
is not a modifier?
Are you able to find a page and paragraph stating that the word "bonus" refers to a modifier? Because I can't. I don't have to disprove something if you can't prove it in the first place.
The reality of the situation is that bonus is never defined as meaning a modifier. Bonus has several different meanings and could be construed as a mathematical addition, or it could simply be construed as the addition of something extra. The second meaning creates a situation consistent with every other Thunderwolf mounted model in the codex as well as how Bikes work. Choosing the first meaning creates an inconsitent situation and is therefore much less likely. The second meaning also works with the Rending rule. The first doesn't as you can't mathematically add Rending to something.
Past FAQ and other options in the book present a strong case for it being a permanent base characteristic change, however RAW if a character buys a mount they are only str 9 with a fist.
Kris - so you can't end up with 5, as you can't add. You gave 4, with a bonus of 1. What numerical value is that, when you hav stated that you cannot use mathematical addition to find out the result?
Nem wrote: Just out of interest, seen BRB on this subject?
''Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1. If
the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model’s standard wargear, this bonus is already included
on its profile.''
How do we handle other bikes which are not part of the profile? Implication of those words are Bonuses are not always char modifications subject to the modifiers rules... You can indeed have a bonus to the profile.
(Under Bikes and Jetbikes)
Did we all miss this?
If bikes count as T5 base (as we are all assuming so) then why would Wolf Lords on thunder-wolves not be S5 T5 base?
nosferatu1001 wrote: Kris - so you can't end up with 5, as you can't add. You gave 4, with a bonus of 1. What numerical value is that, when you hav stated that you cannot use mathematical addition to find out the result?
I've previously given at least one method of increasing 4 by 1 that doesn't involve mathematical addition.
Take a number line showing all real numbers. Locate the number 4. Understand that increase means move right and decrease means move left. Increase your value by moving 1 to the right. Read this number. Oh, look. 5. And I haven't performed mathematical addition.
This is the second time I've had to give this example as a numerical method for increasing real numbers without using addition.
I'd suggest you reread the thread to refresh yourself on responses to previously asked questions.
karlosovic wrote: What the adaptive amongst us do, is try to decipher the meaning of the written rule by looking at other examples, and using common sense to try and decipher the true meaning behind these unfortunate ambiguities.
And this is perfectly acceptable, provided that you make it clear in your post that you are describing how you think it should be played rather than what the rules actually say to do, as per the Tenets of YMDC.
Regardless, though, this thread isn't going anywhere constructive at this point. Discuss it with your opponent until such a time as GW decides to start writing FAQs again.
