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Problem came when I was discussing new sw tactics with my friends.
My is opninion that it counts as S9. In main codex it goes like this "If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values." Both Thunderwolf Cavalry and power fist count as wagear and they all changes S.So Multiple Modifiers rules is triggered and should be applied.
However some of my friends said Thunderwolf Cavalry are born with S5.You cannot subtract the value and then use the rule above.
What do you think? Does the "be born with" logic make sense?

Thunderwolves have S5 base, so yes, it doubles to S10. The wolf is part of the profile, not an upgrade.

 Paradigm wrote:
Thunderwolves have S5 base, so yes, it doubles to S10. The wolf is part of the profile, not an upgrade.

But when it comes to the wolf lord it should be S9? When using power fist wolf lord is poorer than thunderwolf cavalry? Sounds unreasonable.I knew this is based on background. But is just make me feel bad.

I'm confused as to what is doubling to become Strength 9?

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
I'm confused as to what is doubling to become Strength 9?

SM S4 X2（powef fist bouns）+ S1（Thunderwolf mount bouns）= S9

S10 on Thunderwolf Cavalry.

S9 on any dude who takes a Thunderwolf as an option.

Doesn't the addition of a thunderwolf modify the profile itself and change the unit type, much like a bike or jetbike, while weapons like power axes are simply S+1 and don't actually update the profile? A bike changes the T value on the profile, so you use the updated value to determine ID. Why would the S value be any different for things like power fists?

HIWPI would be that since the profile is changed, a powerfist would be S10.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Doesn't the addition of a thunderwolf modify the profile itself and change the unit type, much like a bike or jetbike, while weapons like power axes are simply S+1 and don't actually update the profile? A bike changes the T value on the profile, so you use the updated value to determine ID. Why would the S value be any different for things like power fists?

HIWPI would be that since the profile is changed, a powerfist would be S10.

Same here. This is exactly how I would play it. In my opinion a Thunderwolf won't changes the basic profile and therefor the only real modifier is the weapon. I can see how it would be up for debate though.

And don't forget..... That powerful gets Rending thanks to the thunderwolf!

It kind of sucks that they'd end up strength 9 due to the application of the proper rules when the thunderwolf cavalry has the strength 5 included in their profile as it's base statistic already and is therefore strength 10 with a power fist.

Such is the way of it though.

This is the same problem that the Striking Scorpion exarch ran into...

With crushing blow, the model gets +1 strength, meaning its strength stat is now 4 instead of three, but people are divided as to whether the model gets the static addition or does it only apply in CC.

I would agree that the model becomes the new strength characteristic, therefore the models base strength gets multiplied and thats it.

"a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks, and Wounds characteristics by 1"

This is an increase to the base characteristic and essentially replaces the models profile. Therefore a Wolf Lord with Thunderwolf Mount will be Base Strength of 5 and hitting with Strength 10 if using a Power Fist.

CanisLupus518 wrote:
"a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks, and Wounds characteristics by 1"

This is an increase to the base characteristic and essentially replaces the models profile. Therefore a Wolf Lord with Thunderwolf Mount will be Base Strength of 5 and hitting with Strength 10 if using a Power Fist.

Except the rule doesn't say that. It says you increase the S by 1, nothing about it changing the value in their profile.

Models with a Thunderwolf mount change their unit type to Cavalry, as described in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. All close combat attacks made by a model with a Thunderwolf mount have the Rending special rule. In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).

If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+ 1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its final Strength is 9 (4 × 2 = 8, 8 + 1 = 9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+ 1 Strength’ and ‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore + 1 Strength and set it at 8).

I would say an increase is a modification to a characteristic. It's also called out as a bonus, which further has the implication it doesn't become the new base stat, but a bonus to the models stat.

So str = (4x2)+1 = 9

that it was already included in the profile of some models does not take away that its a +1 modification to a stat from wargear.

fwiw this is the same reason thunderwolf calvary which are listed as Strength 5 would also be strength 9 with a 2x str item.

blaktoof wrote:

Models with a Thunderwolf mount change their unit type to Cavalry, as described in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. All close combat attacks made by a model with a Thunderwolf mount have the Rending special rule. In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).

If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+ 1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its final Strength is 9 (4 × 2 = 8, 8 + 1 = 9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+ 1 Strength’ and ‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore + 1 Strength and set it at 8).

I would say an increase is a modification to a characteristic. It's also called out as a bonus, which further has the implication it doesn't become the new base stat, but a bonus to the models stat.

So str = (4x2)+1 = 9

that it was already included in the profile of some models does not take away that its a +1 modification to a stat from wargear.

fwiw this is the same reason thunderwolf calvary which are listed as Strength 5 would also be strength 9 with a 2x str item.

Personally I think this a dreadful argument. The thunderwolf is Base stat strength 5. So with a powerfist it's strength 10. No arguments required. No ambiguity.

If you shoot a multi Melta at a chapter master on a bike does it instant kill him? No. Because after 5th we were told that his profile is upgraded by the addition of a bike. The thunderwolf is the same.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

Models with a Thunderwolf mount change their unit type to Cavalry, as described in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. All close combat attacks made by a model with a Thunderwolf mount have the Rending special rule. In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).

If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+ 1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its final Strength is 9 (4 × 2 = 8, 8 + 1 = 9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+ 1 Strength’ and ‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore + 1 Strength and set it at 8).

I would say an increase is a modification to a characteristic. It's also called out as a bonus, which further has the implication it doesn't become the new base stat, but a bonus to the models stat.

So str = (4x2)+1 = 9

that it was already included in the profile of some models does not take away that its a +1 modification to a stat from wargear.

fwiw this is the same reason thunderwolf calvary which are listed as Strength 5 would also be strength 9 with a 2x str item.

Personally I think this a dreadful argument. The thunderwolf is Base stat strength 5. So with a powerfist it's strength 10. No arguments required. No ambiguity.

If you shoot a multi Melta at a chapter master on a bike does it instant kill him? No. Because after 5th we were told that his profile is upgraded by the addition of a bike. The thunderwolf is the same.

Seconded!

blaktoof wrote:

that it was already included in the profile of some models does not take away that its a +1 modification to a stat from wargear.

No, that is absolutely not the case - the base profile is the base profile, and the characteristic section of the beginning of the brb is very clear about how modifiers work. You use the base stat (5 for thunderwolves, 4 for characters who buy thunderwolves), then apply multipliers (2x), then apply additions/subtractions (+0 for thunderwolves, +1 for characters who buy thunderwolves). That means that models who are riding thunderwolves by default will be S10 with a PF, but models who buy it as an upgrade will be S9. A strange quirk of the rules, but not at all ambiguous.

Its not a modifier to a stat, its an alteration to a models base profile.

As others have mentioned it works exactly like characters buying bikes being Base T5 while on a bike.

Nope, theyre toughness 4+1, as the +1 is very definitely a modifier.

Youre told that, unlike previous editions, this T increase also counts for ID - howver if you had a psychic power that doubled their toughness, they wouldnt be T10 they would be T9, following the actual rules.

This argument went in circles until an FAQ fixed it.

He is supposed to have a S: 5 not S: 4 [5]

The Thunderwolf Mount Increases the S by 1, not Modifies it by +1, note the difference of the two key words.

In which case you can cite the key word definition?

Increasing something by 1, or decreasing by 1, is still a modifier by 40k definitions.

 Anpu42 wrote:
This argument went in circles until an FAQ fixed it.

He is supposed to have a S: 5 not S: 4 [5]

The Thunderwolf Mount Increases the S by 1, not Modifies it by +1, note the difference of the two key words.

Funny, changing a number from one to another is a modification - by definition.
What FAQ are you referring to? It's not a current one for sure.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
This argument went in circles until an FAQ fixed it.

He is supposed to have a S: 5 not S: 4 [5]

The Thunderwolf Mount Increases the S by 1, not Modifies it by +1, note the difference of the two key words.

Funny, changing a number from one to another is a modification - by definition.
What FAQ are you referring to? It's not a current one for sure.

I was a 6th Edition FAQ...which I don't seem to have anymore.

It was the 5th edition FAQ which changed their S to 5 not 4(5), however that no longer exists.

I know what this likely was meant to give as a result, but yet again theyve flubbed their own rules.

Or have you been able to find a keyword definition page and para, as you were asked?

 Anpu42 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
This argument went in circles until an FAQ fixed it.

He is supposed to have a S: 5 not S: 4 [5]

The Thunderwolf Mount Increases the S by 1, not Modifies it by +1, note the difference of the two key words.

Funny, changing a number from one to another is a modification - by definition.
What FAQ are you referring to? It's not a current one for sure.

I was a 6th Edition FAQ...which I don't seem to have anymore.

I remember that FAQ it was for the T thou, not S. Thunderwolf were the first mounted models to have T5 instead of T4(5) so the FAQ came to rectify that it wasn't a mistake. Nothing related to Str thou.

The exact Definition does not exist in either rule book.
However the term Increase is not exist under Modifiers
The word Modifier does not exits under Thunderwolf Mount.
So are different definitions.

There you go. Str 9. I'm a space wolves player and I happen to have a TWC with a Thunder hammer. I agree though. It's very clear. All thunder wolves are wargear now. Str9 it is! (And I'm going up against a wraithknight soon, d'oh!)

 Anpu42 wrote:
The exact Definition does not exist in either rule book.
However the term Increase is not exist under Modifiers
The word Modifier does not exits under Thunderwolf Mount.
So are different definitions.

OK, so when you claimed they were different key words, that was a lie?

"increase by 1" is synonymous with "add 1" in this case, meaning it is most definitely a modifier. You have to prove that it is not a modifier, and you cannot do so.

Believe what you want

 Anpu42 wrote:
Believe what you want

Nope, "know", as in I know it is a modifier.

You have posted assertions with no rules backing, against the tenets of this forum.

Thunderwolves = wargear.

they call out that its a modification, and a bonus so their base stat is not T 5 S 5.

There are rules that tell us how to apply multiple modifiers in the rulebook.

Unless someone has a rule that overrides the specific entry for thunderwolf and says that thunderwolf changes the models base stats to X then I don't see how anyone could say it is not a modifier- it specifically says its an addition to the stat, and a bonus.