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This is the problem with GW including bonuses in the profile.

Another example, would be with CSM. Most of the named HQs have Veterans of the Long War, which gives +1 Leadership (included in profile).

Now, if they get hit with a -1 Ld, are they 10-1 for 9, or are they 10-1+1 for 10?

 Happyjew wrote:
This is the problem with GW including bonuses in the profile.

Another example, would be with CSM. Most of the named HQs have Veterans of the Long War, which gives +1 Leadership (included in profile).

Now, if they get hit with a -1 Ld, are they 10-1 for 9, or are they 10-1+1 for 10?

How did you come up with that second formula if its already included.

Fragile wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
This is the problem with GW including bonuses in the profile.

Another example, would be with CSM. Most of the named HQs have Veterans of the Long War, which gives +1 Leadership (included in profile).

Now, if they get hit with a -1 Ld, are they 10-1 for 9, or are they 10-1+1 for 10?

How did you come up with that second formula if its already included.

Because it is unknown if the models are (10 (base) + 1 (VotLW) = 11 (capped at 10)), or if they are (9 (base) + 1 (VotLW) = 10)

Where are people reading that the Thunderwolf Mount grants +1 S? The actual wording says that “a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1”.

What is the model's strength characteristic? It isn't 4. It's now 5 as it has been increased as part of the upgrade. A power fist takes 5 and multiplies it by 2.

Reading the rest of the thread would help. It's a bonus. It states as such. As such s9 is the actual raw

I did read the thread. Don't make assumptions.

I see an increase to a base characteristic. Yes, it's referred to as a bonus in a parenthetical comment, but if I were to ask what the model's base strength is, what answer would I receive? I would say 5 as I've been told that models upgraded to have a Thunderwolf Mount have their strength increased by 1 (in this case, to 5). I'm specifically not told that the model receives +1 strength, which would imply base strength remaining at 4, but with a +1 modifier.

It was a reasonable assumption. As you're making the same argument, proven wrong already in this thread.

So we can ignore that it's a bonus (meaning it's a modifier), that it's a stat increased by 1 (meaning it's a modifier) , just because?

Their S is (4+1)=5. Otherwise you cannot say anything, as you cannot derive their strength anywhere else.

Here is what I see in the BRB:

“Modifiers
Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc.), subtracting from it (–1, –2, etc.), multiplying it (×2, ×3, etc.) or even setting its value (1, 8, etc.). Attacks and Wounds are the only characteristics that can be raised above 10. A model’s Initiative cannot be modified below 1, and no other characteristic can be modified below 0.
Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its final Strength is 9 (4×2=8, 8+1=9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore +1 Strength and set it at 8).”

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000 (Interactive Edition).” v1.0. Games Workshop, 2014. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

The Thunderwolf Mount isn't adding to, subtracting from, multiplying or setting its value. It is specifically increasing the value by 1.

I also don't see the word bonus in the above rules that tell us how to handle modifiers. Where is "bonus" defined as being a modifier? It's possible I'm missing a page reference. I didn't see one in the thread, but may have missed it.

So increasing by 1 isn't adding 1 to the characteristic? If so you cannot find the new value

Again: 4+1=5. The +1 is a modifier, no matter how many times you deny it

A modifier is defined using the words adding, subtracting, multiplying and setting.

Increase is defined by Merriam-Webster as "to make greater".

You need to demonstrate that the word increase means to perform addition (it doesn't). You also need to demonstrate that the use of the word bonus indicates modifier status (this doesn't appear to be in the rules).

RaW, we don't appear to have any reason to believe that the base characteristic increase granted by the Thunderwolf Mount upgrade process is a modifier as defined by the BRB. As such, the multiple modifiers section doesn't come into play.

Increase does not equal addition and does not require addition to occur. I could just as easily get a number line showing all real numbers, locate 4 and then slide my finger 1 to the right. I've performed an increase process, but I haven't used addition.

I think the point that Kris is trying to make is it's not modifying the existing value but replacing it entirely.

 Kriswall wrote:
What is the model's strength characteristic? It isn't 4. It's now 5 as it has been increased as part of the upgrade. A power fist takes 5 and multiplies it by 2.

That's exactly how i read it too...

But we cannot deny that the rule states "Bonus" (it's IN the rule) and that a Wolf Lord with Thunder Wolf is at 4+1, only because under his S there is a 4.

Similar to how under S for TC it says 5, even if the book states that the +1 is already included in their profile (and therefore even Thunderwolf Cavalry are 4+1)

The word bonus seems to be irrelevant as I can't find any rule telling me that a "bonus" is a "modifier".

Then you use the normal English definition of the word 'bonus'.

 Kriswall wrote:
A modifier is defined using the words adding, subtracting, multiplying and setting.

Increase is defined by Merriam-Webster as "to make greater".

You need to demonstrate that the word increase means to perform addition (it doesn't). You also need to demonstrate that the use of the word bonus indicates modifier status (this doesn't appear to be in the rules).

RaW, we don't appear to have any reason to believe that the base characteristic increase granted by the Thunderwolf Mount upgrade process is a modifier as defined by the BRB. As such, the multiple modifiers section doesn't come into play.

Increase does not equal addition and does not require addition to occur. I could just as easily get a number line showing all real numbers, locate 4 and then slide my finger 1 to the right. I've performed an increase process, but I haven't used addition.

So adding something is not increasing it? Interesting.

Ok then.

Bonus is defined by Merriam-Webster as "something good that is more than what was expected or required".

Again, nothing about adding, subtracting, multiplying or setting a value.

If I use this normal English definition, then I'm led to believe that a Thunderwolf mounted Wolf Lord gets a something good (an extra point of strength amongst other things) that is more than what was expected for non mounted Wolf Lords. In other words, he has a base strength characteristic of 5 instead of the expected 4.


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Fragile wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
A modifier is defined using the words adding, subtracting, multiplying and setting.

Increase is defined by Merriam-Webster as "to make greater".

You need to demonstrate that the word increase means to perform addition (it doesn't). You also need to demonstrate that the use of the word bonus indicates modifier status (this doesn't appear to be in the rules).

RaW, we don't appear to have any reason to believe that the base characteristic increase granted by the Thunderwolf Mount upgrade process is a modifier as defined by the BRB. As such, the multiple modifiers section doesn't come into play.

Increase does not equal addition and does not require addition to occur. I could just as easily get a number line showing all real numbers, locate 4 and then slide my finger 1 to the right. I've performed an increase process, but I haven't used addition.

So adding something is not increasing it? Interesting.

I can add -1 to 4 and I come up with 3. I have decreased the original number. Adding something is most certainly not always increasing it. This is basic math.

 Kriswall wrote:
Ok then.

Bonus is defined by Merriam-Webster as "something good that is more than what was expected or required".

Again, nothing about adding, subtracting, multiplying or setting a value.

If I use this normal English definition, then I'm led to believe that a Thunderwolf mounted Wolf Lord gets a something good (an extra point of strength amongst other things) that is more than what was expected for non mounted Wolf Lords. In other words, he has a base strength characteristic of 5 instead of the expected 4.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
A modifier is defined using the words adding, subtracting, multiplying and setting.

Increase is defined by Merriam-Webster as "to make greater".

You need to demonstrate that the word increase means to perform addition (it doesn't). You also need to demonstrate that the use of the word bonus indicates modifier status (this doesn't appear to be in the rules).

RaW, we don't appear to have any reason to believe that the base characteristic increase granted by the Thunderwolf Mount upgrade process is a modifier as defined by the BRB. As such, the multiple modifiers section doesn't come into play.

Increase does not equal addition and does not require addition to occur. I could just as easily get a number line showing all real numbers, locate 4 and then slide my finger 1 to the right. I've performed an increase process, but I haven't used addition.

So adding something is not increasing it? Interesting.

I can add -1 to 4 and I come up with 3. I have decreased the original number. Adding something is most certainly not always increasing it. This is basic math.

So then your argument is that the Bonus is a set value to S5?

Not at all. If I could take a Thunderwolf Mount on a S6 model, his S characteristic would be increased by 1 to 7.

I absolutely am NOT saying that increasing a value by 1 is the same as setting that value to 5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My argument is that the bonus is a little something extra that models without the bonus don't get.

 Kriswall wrote:
Not at all. If I could take a Thunderwolf Mount on a S6 model, his S characteristic would be increased by 1 to 7.

I absolutely am NOT saying that increasing a value by 1 is the same as setting that value to 5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My argument is that the bonus is a little something extra that models without the bonus don't get.

So your argument is then that the bonus is not a modifier? (Serious question, not being sarcastic. I am having a hard time understanding this.)

Raw I have to say that at least for the models that dont have it default they are str 9, however for models that do have it they are str 10.

As much as I dont like it and past experiences tell us otherwise via FAQs and the like the wording for furious charge is similar enough to say that RAW it is that way. However I will not be playing it that way, nor will I expect anyone else to.

 Kriswall wrote:
Ok then.

Bonus is defined by Merriam-Webster as "something good that is more than what was expected or required".

Again, nothing about adding, subtracting, multiplying or setting a value.

Really? Then what do you call THIS?

Full Definition of BONUS


: something in addition to what is expected or strictly due: as

a : money or an equivalent given in addition to an employee's usual compensation

b : a premium (as of stock) given by a corporation to a purchaser of its securities, to a promoter, or to an employee

c : a government payment to war veterans

d : a sum in excess of salary given an athlete for signing with a team

The word bonus in a parenthetical side comment is almost entirely irrelevant.

You still have to demonstrate that increase means adding. It doesn't. It is a side effect of certain types of addition, but isn't addition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bonus can mean something that has been added, but can also just mean something extra. It's not specific enough to resolve the core dispute.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides "in addition to" doesn't refer to mathematical addition. Per dictionary.reference.com:

.
in addition to. Over and above, besides, as in In addition to a new muffler, the truck needs new brakes. [c. 1900 ]

S5 is over and above S4. There is no inherent requirement that 1 was added to 4 to come to 5. In fact, we are specifically told to increase 4 by 1, resulting in 5. Same result, different operation.

 Kriswall wrote:
You still have to demonstrate that increase means adding. It doesn't. It is a side effect of certain types of addition, but isn't addition.

So if increase isn't adding, what is it? Because if I increase something I add to it.

Interesting as to how if you look up "Increase" on Merriam-Webster, one of the synonyms is "add (to)".

 Kriswall wrote:

I can add -1 to 4 and I come up with 3. I have decreased the original number. Adding something is most certainly not always increasing it. This is basic math.

Yes, otherwise known as subtracting. We are covering all the grounds for basic math here.

A bonus increase of 1 is definitely an addition, which the rules clearly cover.

What the rules clearly do not cover, is changing the base profile, as you claim.

4 minus 1 is not the same operation as 4 plus -1.

1 and -1 aren't the same number.

4 + -1 is most certainly addition and not subtraction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'm done here. RaI seems painfully obvious. RaW might be up for debate, but at this point I'm debating basic math principles. I'm not an elementary school teacher.

Let's just agree to never play each other.

Just out of interest, seen BRB on this subject?

''Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1. If
the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model’s standard wargear, this bonus is already included
on its profile.''

How do we handle other bikes which are not part of the profile? Implication of those words are Bonuses are not always char modifications subject to the modifiers rules... You can indeed have a bonus to the profile.

(Under Bikes and Jetbikes)

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 karlosovic wrote:
TLDR

The exact wording of the Thunderwolf Mount says

increases their strength, toughness, attacks and wounds Characteristic by 1

The wording of "Characteristic" means it changes the profile permanently.

This is different to a weapon that modifies a characteristic is some instances.
e.g. Model is armed with a Wolf Claw and a Powerfist
In a given combat, he chooses to attack with the Wolf Claw, so the [Sx2] is not applied.
Similarly if he was hit with a Hellfrost weapon he'd have to take a strength test.... but you don't test at the Powerfists [sx2].... but if riding a Thunderwolf he would test at S5 because the Thunderwolf Mount increases the base characteristic

Then don't post, as you have a) been rude by not actually reading hwt others have posted but b) have also ignored the actual full rule, which was already pointed out

It's a bonus

It's a shame that you ridicule me for not paying attention to what others have written, while totally failing to address the points I made.

Tenets of You Make Da Call wrote:1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
... ignored the actual full rule...

but i did read the full rule, in fact I quoted it

 karlosovic wrote:
The exact wording of the Thunderwolf Mount says

increases their strength, toughness, attacks and wounds Characteristic by 1

So I'm reporting you for rule 1


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The inclusion of a Thunderwolf mount creates a whole new unit with type "Cavalry" AND provides some rules for setting that unit's base attributes

That's a not a modifier

That's a reset at new value

 karlosovic wrote:
The inclusion of a Thunderwolf mount creates a whole new unit with type "Cavalry" AND provides some rules for setting that unit's base attributes

That's a not a modifier

That's a reset at new value

So it is a set modifier then? I like that even better, that means that Powerfists would hit with a strength of "increased strength by 1".


Though I'm not sure how you would compare that to Toughness.

Toughness on bike/cav models is the same.
It's a reset at a new value.

That's why S8 doesnt ID MEQ on bikes... because they're no longer T4 (+1) but T5

karlosovic wrote:It's a shame that you ridicule me for not paying attention to what others have written, while totally failing to address the points I made.

No, I pointed out that putting "TL, DR" at the top of your post is rude. Which it is.

Oh, and I addressed the point. The rule states it is a bonus. You ignored that part of the rule.

karlosovic wrote:

Tenets of You Make Da Call wrote:1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
... ignored the actual full rule...

but i did read the full rule, in fact I quoted it

 karlosovic wrote:
The exact wording of the Thunderwolf Mount says

increases their strength, toughness, attacks and wounds Characteristic by 1

So I'm reporting you for rule 1

Ah, wrong. I nevcer stated you did not read it, just that you ignored it - which you did, as the full rule, which you did not quote, mentions this is a bonus.

I'm sure this has nothing to do with the personal attacks on the other thread from you, of course.

karlosovic wrote:The inclusion of a Thunderwolf mount creates a whole new unit with type "Cavalry" AND provides some rules for setting that unit's base attributes

That's a not a modifier

That's a reset at new value

Ah, so its a set value? Cool, then powerfists strike at S5, as set value modifiers appear at a different point

The actual languae requires it to be a modifier (as you "add to" when increasing a numeric value), consistent use without 40k has it as a modifier, etc.

S9, RAW.