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2014/08/14 01:40:57
Subject: Re:[Rules problem]Thunderwolf Cavalry attack with power fist,S9 or S10 ?
If it helps any, in the back of the new Wolves Codex it reads:
Thunderwolf Mount: Models with a Thunderwolf mount change their unit type to Cavalry, as described in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. All close combat attacks made by a model with a Thunderwolf Mount have the Rending Special rule. In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf Mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).
In any case, I think it goes that the base strength should be considered S5 to make the powerfist a S10 attack in the same way that an item of wargear increases a model's WS or BS. You aren't gonna spend points on equipment just to ignore it the entire game.
And if you think that's not the case then what about their Toughness, Attacks and Wounds? Does that mean they also aren't increased as well?
2014/08/14 01:58:49
Subject: [Rules problem]Thunderwolf Cavalry attack with power fist,S9 or S10 ?
The only model in the SW codex that is not a vehicle with base str 5 is arjac.
"increases" "bonus"
these are modifiers.
there is a section in the rulebook on how modifiers work, especially in the instance of multiple modifiers.
(Sx2)+1
the points spent were not ignored, the modified the models base stat of 4 with a bonus that increases it to 5.
This is not the models new base strength but its modified strength.
of course T,W,A are increased but just likes strength they are modifiers to a stat. so if something doubled them they would be (statx2)+1 for thunder wolf.
just as furious charge increases Strength by 1, if the model charges with a powerfist and is normally strength 4 it is now Str (4x2)+1 not Str (4+1)x2
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/14 02:00:16
2014/08/14 02:16:15
Subject: Re:[Rules problem]Thunderwolf Cavalry attack with power fist,S9 or S10 ?
So lets look at the other Thunderwolf Riders
Harald Deathwolf: S5
Canis Wolfborn: S5
Thunderwolf Cavalry: S5
Thunderwolf Pack Leader: S5
None of them are S4[5]
Why would a Wolf Lord, Wolf Guard Battle Leader or Iron Priest then be S4[5]?
it doesn't stop that their stat is modified by a "bonus" that "increases" it and is called out under the wargear that does so, that the bonus is included in the profile.
not that the models new profile is x.
bonus
bonus = modifier
2014/08/14 03:42:47
Subject: [Rules problem]Thunderwolf Cavalry attack with power fist,S9 or S10 ?
blaktoof wrote: they are all str4 modified to str 5 by a bonus.
none of them are base strength 5.
GW doesn'twrite 4(5) in profiles anymore.
it doesn't stop that their stat is modified by a "bonus" that "increases" it and is called out under the wargear that does so, that the bonus is included in the profile.
not that the models new profile is x.
bonus
bonus = modifier
Where does it say that? They only come in one mode so that is their base strength. There's no such unit as unmounted Thunderwolf Cavalry, for all we know they're all Arjac level strong and just happen to be on wolfback.
2014/08/14 06:31:14
Subject: [Rules problem]Thunderwolf Cavalry attack with power fist,S9 or S10 ?
So: Argument #1 That the Strength Increase is a Modifier making all Thunderwolf Models Strength 4[5]
Argument #2 That the Strength Increase is not a Modifier making all Thunderwolf Models Strength 5
Argument #3 That Only Special Characters on Thunderwolves and Thunderwolf Cavalry are Strength 5 and all others are Strength 4[5]
I‘ve found an old sw faq_v1.3 for 6e. And found two related question:
Q: Is the +1 Toughness from a Thunderwolf Mount considered bonus toughness , i.e . the model be comes Toughness 4(5), o are is it a modification to the base characteristic, i.e. the model becomes Toughness 5? (p 62)
A: Unusually for such bonuses, it is a modification to the base
characteristic. Effectively the two creatures have a combined
profile with Toughness 5. This is because the Toughness value
represents both the Toughness of the Space Marine and the
Toughness of the Thunderwolf (which is, if anything, more
impressive than even a member of the Astartes). It is not just
an enhanced Toughness for the Space Marine, as with a Space
Marine bike. After all, a Space Marine bike cannot react on its
own, and is useless without a rider, whereas a giant monstrous
wolf is still a tough customer!
Q: Is the +1 Strength from a Thunderwolf Mount a modification to the base characteristic? (p62)
A: Yes.
So in gw's logic the Thunderwolf Mount is a special modification and changes the base characteristic.And I believe they won't change that logic.So s10 for both thunderwolf calvalry and wolf lord with pf.
2014/08/14 13:35:31
Subject: Re:[Rules problem]Thunderwolf Cavalry attack with power fist,S9 or S10 ?
The thing is the Language Used
Modified: This is a term used to describe how to Modify an Attribute. The Game is very specific in its Language. Psychic Powers are very Specific +3 to Strength, -1 WS. Weapons use either S+2 [for Power Mauls] or Sx2 [Power Fist]. Never is the word IncreasedUsed in a Descriptor.
Increased: Tells you the Characteristics are Raisedby 1. Never one using the Word Modify.
As with most of the rules it is very Specific in what it does and what Rules govern them. The fact The Rule Thunderwolf Mount does not use the Word Modify does not once reference the Rule Modifiers or Multiple Modifiers.
nosferatu1001 wrote: OK, so youre back to making up key words again? Interesting.
No, "increase by 1" is a modifier. It is covered in the rules. Stop trying to make stuff up to support your interpretation.
It is very unlikely that they meant them to be S9, but that is the current rules.
Additionally, just to emphasize the point: in order to get to "5" from "increase by 1", you have to do the follwiing - 4+1 = 5
Its a modifier. Dont make rules up, it isnt healthy in a debate.
No I am not making up words
Increased by 1, that is strait from the Codex: Space Wolves.
All Modified Characteristics all have either +#, -# or X#, this does not exist with Thunderwolf Mount.
So a Thunderwolf Mount doesn't call out the increase as a bonus? Anywhere?
No it Increases Characteristics {Yes by Webster is a Modification, but we all know GW does what they want with English Language}, but it does not follow how The Rule: Modification operates. If it did it would have said +1 to the Following The Rule: Modification, but it does not.
nosferatu1001 wrote: OK, so youre back to making up key words again? Interesting.
No, "increase by 1" is a modifier. It is covered in the rules. Stop trying to make stuff up to support your interpretation.
It is very unlikely that they meant them to be S9, but that is the current rules.
Additionally, just to emphasize the point: in order to get to "5" from "increase by 1", you have to do the follwiing - 4+1 = 5
Its a modifier. Dont make rules up, it isnt healthy in a debate.
No I am not making up words
Increased by 1, that is strait from the Codex: Space Wolves.
All Modified Characteristics all have either +#, -# or X#, this does not exist with Thunderwolf Mount.
No, youre making up a ***key*** word.
How are you getting to 5? By doing4+1. Making it a modifier. Seriously, dont make up gak - we know what they likely meant, especially as there has been no substantive change to the rules for TWM, they just ballsed it up AGAIN.
RAW they are S9 with a powerfist. That is the actual, literal rules.
2014/08/14 14:22:27
Subject: [Rules problem]Thunderwolf Cavalry attack with power fist,S9 or S10 ?
nosferatu1001 wrote: OK, so youre back to making up key words again? Interesting.
No, "increase by 1" is a modifier. It is covered in the rules. Stop trying to make stuff up to support your interpretation.
It is very unlikely that they meant them to be S9, but that is the current rules.
Additionally, just to emphasize the point: in order to get to "5" from "increase by 1", you have to do the follwiing - 4+1 = 5
Its a modifier. Dont make rules up, it isnt healthy in a debate.
No I am not making up words
Increased by 1, that is strait from the Codex: Space Wolves.
All Modified Characteristics all have either +#, -# or X#, this does not exist with Thunderwolf Mount.
No, youre making up a ***key*** word.
How are you getting to 5? By doing4+1. Making it a modifier. Seriously, dont make up gak - we know what they likely meant, especially as there has been no substantive change to the rules for TWM, they just ballsed it up AGAIN.
RAW they are S9 with a powerfist. That is the actual, literal rules.
I have played this RAW vs. RAI game before.
I see nothing that tells me that it is a Modifier other than Webster. My Group Sees this and others See this. If you can't then you see it a different way. This is why I left the thread for about 8 hours yesterday and am going to now before I start getting to mad to cool down easy.
A fair way of looking at it can also be handled in comparison to furious charge.
In the instance of furious charge, the model is not getting the +1 strength until it charges into combat and only for those attacks. In this example, if for some reason, one of these models had to take a strength test against a new helfrost weapon, it would be on whatever strength the model has base, not base + furous charge.
Flip this to the thunderwolf argument... if a thunderwolf model got furious charge, now possible due to relics, and got hit by a helfrost weapon, the model would test on his base strength, which is now 5 due to the thunderwolf, and not 6 with furious charge.
The fact that the thunderwolf model would only fail on a 6 is irrelevant. The point is that the model is now always strength 5 rather than only at a certain point in the game. It would appear that a modifier, according to GW, is something that occurs while the game is going on (case in point: hammerhand, furous charge, etc.) whereas the model gets +1 strength to its base characteristic before the game even begins, essentially creating a new character with a different statline...
would this be an agreeable assessment?
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2014/08/14 14:56:30
Subject: [Rules problem]Thunderwolf Cavalry attack with power fist,S9 or S10 ?
So a Thunderwolf Mount doesn't call out the increase as a bonus? Anywhere?
No it Increases Characteristics {Yes by Webster is a Modification, but we all know GW does what they want with English Language}, but it does not follow how The Rule: Modification operates. If it did it would have said +1 to the Following The Rule: Modification, but it does not.
Really? It doesn't use the word "bonus" anywhere? Are you absolutely sure?
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2014/08/14 15:30:13
Subject: [Rules problem]Thunderwolf Cavalry attack with power fist,S9 or S10 ?
nosferatu1001 wrote: OK, so youre back to making up key words again? Interesting.
No, "increase by 1" is a modifier. It is covered in the rules. Stop trying to make stuff up to support your interpretation.
It is very unlikely that they meant them to be S9, but that is the current rules.
Additionally, just to emphasize the point: in order to get to "5" from "increase by 1", you have to do the follwiing - 4+1 = 5
Its a modifier. Dont make rules up, it isnt healthy in a debate.
No I am not making up words
Increased by 1, that is strait from the Codex: Space Wolves.
All Modified Characteristics all have either +#, -# or X#, this does not exist with Thunderwolf Mount.
No, youre making up a ***key*** word.
How are you getting to 5? By doing4+1. Making it a modifier. Seriously, dont make up gak - we know what they likely meant, especially as there has been no substantive change to the rules for TWM, they just ballsed it up AGAIN.
RAW they are S9 with a powerfist. That is the actual, literal rules.
I have played this RAW vs. RAI game before.
I see nothing that tells me that it is a Modifier other than Webster. My Group Sees this and others See this. If you can't then you see it a different way. This is why I left the thread for about 8 hours yesterday and am going to now before I start getting to mad to cool down easy.
Just the rules on modifiers, maths, and language telling you you're wrong, but that isn't enough?
Fair enough. Play whatever houserule you wish , just understand it IS, without a doubt, A modifier
2014/08/14 15:37:25
Subject: [Rules problem]Thunderwolf Cavalry attack with power fist,S9 or S10 ?
the rule for thunderwolf mount calls out that its a bonus.
In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).
Your group can of course play it however they want, many groups do not follow the RAW of various parts of the game.
Multiple Modifiers If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+ 1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its final Strength is 9 (4 × 2 = 8, 8 + 1 = 9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+ 1 Strength’ and ‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore + 1 Strength and set it at 8).
does the wargear:Thunderwolf mount modify the models strength?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/08/14 15:56:04
2014/08/14 22:30:10
Subject: [Rules problem]Thunderwolf Cavalry attack with power fist,S9 or S10 ?
Furious charge has similar wording "adds +1 to its strength characteristic" (exact wording). Furious charge is used as an example in the multiple modifiers section. I want it to be strength 10, but it feels wrong.
2014/08/15 00:51:08
Subject: [Rules problem]Thunderwolf Cavalry attack with power fist,S9 or S10 ?
yellowfever wrote: So are the str 9 supporters saying that a bike character can be instant by a rocket now.
Why would it? Since ID does not specify unmodified Toughness, you would apply any modifiers.
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2014/08/15 01:01:08
Subject: [Rules problem]Thunderwolf Cavalry attack with power fist,S9 or S10 ?
yellowfever wrote: So are the str 9 supporters saying that a bike character can be instant by a rocket now.
Any Wound allocated to a model has the Instant Death special rule (see below) if the Strength value of that attack is at least double the Toughness value (after modifiers) of that model.
Note the bold
2014/08/15 07:09:13
Subject: [Rules problem]Thunderwolf Cavalry attack with power fist,S9 or S10 ?
A character with a thunderwolf mount will have the base stat of strength 5 as this will always apply to the character, the powerfist double the strength of the character in CC.
Therefore the strength would be strength 10 in CC and strength 5 out of combat.
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