After lurking in another thread about tasteless models, a thought occurred to me: is 40k really a kids game? The models and lore, while occasionally silly, read more like a version of Heavy Metal or Akira. There are kids who come to play at my LGS, but most of them are fourteen or older. What do you guys think? Should there be an age limit on games like this, or do you think everyone should be welcome?

With most of 40k, there's enough vagueness t background and setting that you can make of it what you will. You can look at or as utterly grim dark, emotionally futile and rather horrific, or you can take it as written which is no more unpleasant than most kids/teen fiction these days.

I think the game itself and the basic lore is harmless enough.

Once you go deeper, probably not.

Depends on the age and relative maturity of the child in question. Personally, I think they've "kiddified" things too much, and need to take a couple steps back, aesthetically.

 jreilly89 wrote:
After lurking in another thread about tasteless models, a thought occurred to me: is 40k really a kids game? The models and lore, while occasionally silly, read more like a version of Heavy Metal or Akira. There are kids who come to play at my LGS, but most of them are fourteen or older. What do you guys think? Should there be an age limit on games like this, or do you think everyone should be welcome?

Kids are different but mine is 9 and playing albeit he has never read a word of the rules or the fluff really so i dont think he fully comprehends what his Chaos Marines are all about. I'm in no hurry to explain it to him besides telling him they are "bad guys"

When I started in the hobby, the GW box had a 12+ warning on it.

These days, not so much.

It wasn't when it was good. I suspect one could draw a direct correlation with the increased dissatisfaction in the player base and the ever higher levels of sanitation in the fluff and models.

Well, first of all, I think it's a non-issue because there are very few young kids who can afford to play 40k, or have the patience to paint up an army.

In terms of the lore, it's a fraction of the violence level of a video game, or the graphic content of a comic book. I think that parents would just have to decide at what age 40k, X-men or Halo is appropriate.

Plus, I've never seen a local FLGS game where there are very young kids playing anything, not even age-appropriate TCGs.

I'm tempted to say it's not for kids, but then I remember that I had Warhammer 40,000 stuff when I was 8 years old (and yes, I read the fluff too) with no harmful effects so I suppose if the kid is well brought up it does no harm. There definitely shouldn't be an age limit.

If it involves exact o knives probably not good for children under the age of 10.

Yeah, three's not much in this game that isn't readily available anywhere else, either in video games, movies, comics, anything. So, I reckon it's up the parents of the kid, because it would most likely be their money paying for the models. But sure, let kids play it.

My 7 year old plays (admittedly brief) games and has a full grasp of the concepts. I started last year by explaining 'wounds' as 'damage' and deaths as just 'having to remove the model due to too much damage' and she has had no negative effects.

Now when we play she gets super excited when her Battle Sisters/Wolf Guard kill team 'kills' my Tyranid monsters. A well balanced kid can differentiate between real and imaginary, and she knows that even though her Marines might 'die' and that she's gunning down dozens of clawed terrors, it's just a game. And she gets to paint minis as well!

The only real issue is, now she wants 40k at Christmas too. And that gets expensive. :/

 jreilly89 wrote:
After lurking in another thread about tasteless models, a thought occurred to me: is 40k really a kids game? The models and lore, while occasionally silly, read more like a version of Heavy Metal or Akira. There are kids who come to play at my LGS, but most of them are fourteen or older. What do you guys think? Should there be an age limit on games like this, or do you think everyone should be welcome?

It's not a kids game. It's an early adult+ game.

A universe where the good guys are xenocidal, genetically engineered, psycho-indoctrinated super soldiers who openly wear skulls on their armor and serve a brutal theocratic feudal military police state is not really something aimed at small children.

Exceptions, as always, apply, but in general, no, the 40k universe is not a kids universe.

I'd argue its on par with a PG-13 movie or a mildly violent video game. Its not Mario Brothers, nor is it Grand Theft Auto; and the concepts of genocide, mass murder, and torture are common themes in in a fair amount of movies and video games. So is it targeted to kids, no I think Vaktathi pointed that out quite well; but is it appropriate for children? Perhaps not young kids, but certainly 10-12 and up at the least. When do most kids see their first violent movie or play "Call of Duty" ?

You read the HH books!! "Fear to Tread" has some dark parts where it talks about mutilated corpses of children....

But the table top isnt bad at all some blood and violence and some scary monsters but that's all normal for kids.

I grew up watching R rated movies and playing the most violent video games in existence from a very young age. I didn't turn into a sociopath. I think kids today are far too sheltered and 40k is fine along with lots of other things parents freak out about like they're the end of the world.

 Jancoran wrote:

Kids are different but mine is 9 and playing albeit he has never read a word of the rules or the fluff really so i dont think he fully comprehends what his Chaos Marines are all about. I'm in no hurry to explain it to him besides telling him they are "bad guys"

My son is 10 and occasionally gets the itch to play. I've explained some of the background to him to give him a sense of why things are the way they are in the 40k universe. His only concern is making sure he blows up as many models of mine as we can. He's mature and responsible enough to hit the range, so I think playing plastic army men with his dad is easy enough.

Psienesis wrote:Personally, I think they've "kiddified" things too much, and need to take a couple steps back, aesthetically.

Furyou Miko wrote:When I started in the hobby, the GW box had a 12+ warning on it.
These days, not so much.

Taking the words right out of my ... uh, fingers.

It may have been "adult-themed" a decade or two ago, but ever since they've dialled down on the creepy details in the codices and de-sexed the Daemonettes etc, the game is about as horrible as the Power Rangers show.
Since the old stuff has already been written and is essentially "still there" (if you know where to look for it), I shouldn't really care - though I am a bit sad about how nothing new on that level will see the light of day, and how silly some of the newer minis have become. Alas, that's the path they wanted to take, for whatever reason.

I started playing at around 6 years old, and I seem fine, but some of you who are familiar with my posts in OT may disagree.

To be honest, I don't remember learning very much violence from 40k. The creepier aspects of 40k were pretty much over my head at that age, and if you want to see good guys blasting bad guys you can see it anywhere - Star Wars, which is pretty much marketed toward children, has sword fights and gun fights just the same as 40k, but there's really no blood involved.


There's a way to sell the game to kids that won't put them in therapy - sometimes good people need to do bad things to bad people to keep other good people safe. The whole thing about the Imperium basically a synergism of the worst parts of human history is probably lost on most children.

I started the hobby when I was 8/9, though I didn't fully understand the grimdark nature of it till I immersed myself in the fluff fully. My brother is 12, and has just started to read BL. Re-reading some of my novels before I let him try, there are a fair few I've ruled out for now. Mainly the GK omnibus (/any books that feature inquisitors, as they like to flay innocents) as well as Pandorax (sewing prisoner's eyes and mouths shut, anyone?). Lots are very fun/not grimdark, though I almost regret letting him read Storm of Iron - great book, but a bit mature.

To cut my rambling answer to a head: there are certainly aspects that are not kid friendly.

There are no good guys in 40K. None. Everyone is a donkey cave to everyone else, and where concepts that we, as citizens of liberal democracies of the Western World in M3, find deplorable (racism, genocide, religious intolerance, totalitarianism, ignorance, fanaticism) are vaunted as the highest of virtues.

 Psienesis wrote:
There are no good guys in 40K. None. Everyone is a donkey cave to everyone else, and where concepts that we, as citizens of liberal democracies of the Western World in M3, find deplorable (racism, genocide, religious intolerance, totalitarianism, ignorance, fanaticism) are vaunted as the highest of virtues.

In the deep structure of the fluff, this is absolutely true. But if you just read the surface fluff, you've got Space Marines and humans fighting against an onslaught of certifiable baddies.

As a child, I pretty much just read the surface fluff. Then again, this was back in RT and 2nd edition, before the fluff got completely bonkers Grimdark (tm).

Ahh, 2nd Edition, where you had a codex talk about sexual abuse at the Schola Progenium. One of the topics I expect will never be touched upon again in the franchise.

The models and background isn't that horrific, the price on the other hand...£300 to start an army is not pocket money.

 Desubot wrote:
If it involves exact o knives probably not good for children under the age of 10.

Heh, there are 30 year olds I wouldn't trust with "safety scissors" (those rounded point ones given to children as their "first" scissors.) or if I wanted to push it, a blunt spoon.

The perceived violence level? No.
Small parts? Definitely no.
The costs? If they can afford to have an iphone and an xboxeleventyONE!!! they can afford to get into it. Otherwise, play with discarded knucklebones and matchbox cars. Like I did as a kid (I couldn't start 40k as a kid - it didn't exist until I was 19).

I think it's something that you grow into, honestly. 40k has some parts that are not suitable for very young children, like x-acto knife blades, being around other people's minis, and several parts in the fluff. Other parts, though, are just fine.

Really, 40k isn't any different than any mixed-age content. Young people will likely be exposed to the "good" stuff and like it, and the "bad" stuff will likely go over their head. Also, as a parent you do have SOME control over what they're exposed to. Just don't shove the "bad" stuff in their face, and they'll probably only dig it up once they're old enough for it to have meaning for them.

Just use the coping strategies you use for everything else.

I mean, look at the bible. If you're a devout christian, of course you're going to want your kid to read the bible. But have you actually read some of the stuff they have in that book?

Same thing, really. You point them towards the "I am the way and the truth and the light" and the "love one another as I have loved you", and studiously neglect to bring to their attention the "she lusted after dudes with giant dicks" and the "women shall have no authority over man, she must be silent" parts.

Just don't shove the fethed up parts in their face, and 40k is plenty appropriate.

Well, topics of genocide, torture, murder, war, and so on are also topics that kids will see on Star Trek, Thor and the Avengers in the movies; half of primetime television; and about 3/4 of comic books past the Archie age. Virtually every video game young boys will play once they get past the Mario/Nintendo age will be far, far more graphic. We, as humans, just have a fascination towards such topics, and though must of us don't personally want to be IN a war or battle, many people find the fiction of it exciting.

That being said, the point someone made about xacto knives is a good one. There are many tools not appropriate for children under 10-12, like hobby knives, toxic solvents, superglue, pin vices, saws, resin dust, and so on. Modelling is at least half the fun of 40k, and I don't see allowing a young child access to the tools... not even the paint (especially the washes), for fear they'd spill it all over the carpeting.

Talys wrote:
Well, topics of genocide, torture, murder, war, and so on are also topics that kids will see on Star Trek, Thor and the Avengers in the movies; half of primetime television; and about 3/4 of comic books past the Archie age. Virtually every video game young boys will play once they get past the Mario/Nintendo age will be far, far more graphic. We, as humans, just have a fascination towards such topics, and though must of us don't personally want to be IN a war or battle, many people find the fiction of it exciting.

That being said, the point someone made about xacto knives is a good one. There are many tools not appropriate for children under 10-12, like hobby knives, toxic solvents, superglue, pin vices, saws, resin dust, and so on. Modelling is at least half the fun of 40k, and I don't see allowing a young child access to the tools... not even the paint (especially the washes), for fear they'd spill it all over the carpeting.

I'm pretty sure that the topic of Slaanesh hasn't really been brought up on Star Trek.

SBG wrote:
My 7 year old plays (admittedly brief) games and has a full grasp of the concepts. I started last year by explaining 'wounds' as 'damage' and deaths as just 'having to remove the model due to too much damage' and she has had no negative effects.

Now when we play she gets super excited when her Battle Sisters/Wolf Guard kill team 'kills' my Tyranid monsters. A well balanced kid can differentiate between real and imaginary, and she knows that even though her Marines might 'die' and that she's gunning down dozens of clawed terrors, it's just a game. And she gets to paint minis as well!

The only real issue is, now she wants 40k at Christmas too. And that gets expensive. :/

I'm in the same boat. My daughter asks to play and we do little games, like 300-500 points. Its almost as fun for her figuring out the wounds and to hits.

My latest opponent has been an 11 yr old Space Wolves player and he's good at it. Lots of long distance moving stuff.

The tabletop game itself is fine for younger kids, the only thing I would deem inappropriate is the in depth fluff and some passages of the many books written in 40k setting. The must fethed up I've read is definitely about the Daemonculaba, definitely not child friendly.

SBG wrote:
My 7 year old plays (admittedly brief) games and has a full grasp of the concepts. I started last year by explaining 'wounds' as 'damage' and deaths as just 'having to remove the model due to too much damage' and she has had no negative effects.

Now when we play she gets super excited when her Battle Sisters/Wolf Guard kill team 'kills' my Tyranid monsters. A well balanced kid can differentiate between real and imaginary, and she knows that even though her Marines might 'die' and that she's gunning down dozens of clawed terrors, it's just a game. And she gets to paint minis as well!

The only real issue is, now she wants 40k at Christmas too. And that gets expensive. :/

pretty much this. If a kid plays space marines and doesn't beat up the kids with down's or similar handicaps while screaming KILL THE MUTANT! PURGE THE UNCLEAN! then, the kid should have ABSOLUTELY no reason to be disallowed from playing... speaking of dark eldar and slaneesh, i would approve it as well, because do you really think that kid with access to the internet, the most disturbing thing he can see there is a hermaphroditic deamon?

From what I have seen, most active players that go to shops and play are in their mid teens to adulthood. A good 50% are in their late 20's. The lore lends itself to any age really. If the kid is old enough to comprehend what's going on and he has a good head on his shoulder than there really should be no problem there.

Painting is a great way to build fine motor skills and build on child parent time.

With that all being said. Most kids will be easily distracted if they are not actively pushing to get into modeling. Also, since alot of older kids and adults play, it's not something you can leave a little kid unattended to do. It's like when you go to your local hobby store and you have the hapless parent drop their kid off to run down the aisles like it's a toysrus. Small kids should be accompanied by a parent. So as some other poster said. PG13 seems about right.

The game would be fine for kids... if it were not so expensive. Only the very richest kids would be able to afford playing 40k.

You don't have to play 40k with a gagillion minis, though.

The best part about real young kids with 40k is that what they really like is novelty and painting, and have really, really low standards. You can go to ebay and buy the cheapest possible plastic glued garbage and your kids will still like painting them and making pew noises.

I would rate most of Warhammer around 12+

Except Angry Marines.. they're at least 16+

 Ailaros wrote:
You don't have to play 40k with a gagillion minis, though.

The best part about real young kids with 40k is that what they really like is novelty and painting, and have really, really low standards. You can go to ebay and buy the cheapest possible plastic glued garbage and your kids will still like painting them and making pew noises.

Reaper bones minis work well for the kids as well. Durable and easy to paint, and pretty cheap.

 jreilly89 wrote:
After lurking in another thread about tasteless models, a thought occurred to me: is 40k really a kids game? The models and lore, while occasionally silly, read more like a version of Heavy Metal or Akira. There are kids who come to play at my LGS, but most of them are fourteen or older. What do you guys think? Should there be an age limit on games like this, or do you think everyone should be welcome?

I bet you're talking about the stripper landraider.

Tasteless, vulgar, and discouraging for anyone not a complete pervert that wants to enter this hobby.

Most of the lore and books are easily PG-13. It's a bit sexist as an understatement. Fans just take it too far.

 Pyeatt wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
After lurking in another thread about tasteless models, a thought occurred to me: is 40k really a kids game? The models and lore, while occasionally silly, read more like a version of Heavy Metal or Akira. There are kids who come to play at my LGS, but most of them are fourteen or older. What do you guys think? Should there be an age limit on games like this, or do you think everyone should be welcome?

I bet you're talking about the stripper landraider.

Tasteless, vulgar, and discouraging for anyone not a complete pervert that wants to enter this hobby.

Most of the lore and books are easily PG-13. It's a bit sexist as an understatement. Fans just take it too far.

The SJW rears its ugly head again. Run ye who would dare go against his PC wrath

Well, the model range is a bit sexist, and the "girls only club" could do with a bit more exposure to make things even with the "boys only club".

But it's kind of OK, because the girls only club are even cooler than the boys only club, and for every other person who wants a feminine army, there's Tyranids or Eldar. Especially since the setting itself - gender clubs aside - is actually pretty gender-equal. Life sucks for everyone. As many women hold high office as do men (and are usually better at it).

Also, there are actually good reasons to introduce 40k to kids at a young age. It gives a good grounding in probability calculation and mental arithmetic, as well as long addition for those who don't cheat with battlescribe - and for those who do want a computer answer but haven't found those programs, it can even give a good grounding in spreadsheet programs!

Maybe that's just me being an '80s kid talking though.

The tabletop game is fine. Yes, you're imagining violence occurring between two armies, but that's nothing compared to your typical video game. On top of that, it's a game. Pieces that you make to move around and represent the soldiers in your armies.

The lore, well, that's another thing altogether. My kids are 5 and 3, and they're starting to realize that there's death in the world, and sometimes there aren't do-overs... that sort of thing. They aren't ready for any of the themes that 40k contains. but they like to look at the models, and I've made a couple of marines for my oldest, because he thinks they're cool.

I keep the things separate. Really, I'm a gamer in this hobby. I like building, and playing. Playing, more than anything. After that, I dabble in the fluff, but only shallow dips. I don't enjoy painting at all, but I like having a painted army, so I grind through when the impulse [rarely] strikes. Much of the fluff is hard to get into, for me. It breaks my suspension of disbelief, so I take it in little bites, and try to be inspired by the ideas, rather than the specific content.

 Pyeatt wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
After lurking in another thread about tasteless models, a thought occurred to me: is 40k really a kids game? The models and lore, while occasionally silly, read more like a version of Heavy Metal or Akira. There are kids who come to play at my LGS, but most of them are fourteen or older. What do you guys think? Should there be an age limit on games like this, or do you think everyone should be welcome?

I bet you're talking about the stripper landraider.

Tasteless, vulgar, and discouraging for anyone not a complete pervert that wants to enter this hobby.

Most of the lore and books are easily PG-13. It's a bit sexist as an understatement. Fans just take it too far.

I think that's a bit much. Sure, tasteless, crass, and a bit sexist I could see, but I would HARDLY call people who think its cool looking perverts.

 greatbigtree wrote:

The lore, well, that's another thing altogether. My kids are 5 and 3, and they're starting to realize that there's death in the world, and sometimes there aren't do-overs... that sort of thing. They aren't ready for any of the themes that 40k contains. but they like to look at the models, and I've made a couple of marines for my oldest, because he thinks they're cool.
.

My cousin learned about death when she was five through the medium of a rabbit. She was very morbid for a few years, then grew up to be one of those scary genius kids. Early exposure's not always a bad thing.

I started when I was 9.

I sell video games and I can't tell you how many parents come in and buy GTA 5 for their 6 year olds even after we've told them about the interactive strip club mini games where you grope the girls, the 20 minutes of killing cops, 6 minutes of the F bomb and full out sex scenes. Same goes for Red Dead Redemption and Witcher 2, all we hear is "oh we'll just mute it".

Warhammer is fine content wise, there are worse things my kids could do (if I had kids).

Furyou Miko wrote:She was very morbid for a few years, then grew up to be one of those scary genius kids.

Please tell me that's a causation, not a correlation. My little girl is 15 months old and I will definitely stab a hobo in front of her tomorrow if it means she gets a high-paying job or something in academia.

Actually, if that were true, then what would really be kid-friendly would be something more graphic, rather than less. Sounds like I need to make my penis-slaanesh army, and soon. You know, for my little girl's future. Now just to get the wife to agree...

that is intensely disturbing

40k as a game? Is fine. It's just models, and dice rolling. Lore wise? I don't think it's really that bad either. Some of it can be, like the Dark Eldar I've heard have very grim lore, but I've never read it myself to see just how 'graphic' it is.

 Ustrello wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
After lurking in another thread about tasteless models, a thought occurred to me: is 40k really a kids game? The models and lore, while occasionally silly, read more like a version of Heavy Metal or Akira. There are kids who come to play at my LGS, but most of them are fourteen or older. What do you guys think? Should there be an age limit on games like this, or do you think everyone should be welcome?

I bet you're talking about the stripper landraider.

Tasteless, vulgar, and discouraging for anyone not a complete pervert that wants to enter this hobby.

Most of the lore and books are easily PG-13. It's a bit sexist as an understatement. Fans just take it too far.

The SJW rears its ugly head again. Run ye who would dare go against his PC wrath

First I'd like to say I have no clue what SJW stands for. Second, if PC is supposed to stand for politically correct, then you're mistaken. Is it politically correct to want this game to appeal to women as well as men? Is it PC to be angered about the hostile climates many females experience at tournaments? (I'll quote sources if you like, or you can google search about women at 40k tournaments) Is it PC to see the correlation between this mistreatment of our better-smelling halves and the wanton objectification of them? The stripper landraider as an example, that's not a GW model. You won't see a stripper landraider anywhere, even on Forgeworld. That's a guy showing his low opinion of women.

 Pyeatt wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
After lurking in another thread about tasteless models, a thought occurred to me: is 40k really a kids game? The models and lore, while occasionally silly, read more like a version of Heavy Metal or Akira. There are kids who come to play at my LGS, but most of them are fourteen or older. What do you guys think? Should there be an age limit on games like this, or do you think everyone should be welcome?

I bet you're talking about the stripper landraider.

Tasteless, vulgar, and discouraging for anyone not a complete pervert that wants to enter this hobby.

Most of the lore and books are easily PG-13. It's a bit sexist as an understatement. Fans just take it too far.

The SJW rears its ugly head again. Run ye who would dare go against his PC wrath

First I'd like to say I have no clue what SJW stands for. Second, if PC is supposed to stand for politically correct, then you're mistaken. Is it politically correct to want this game to appeal to women as well as men? Is it PC to be angered about the hostile climates many females experience at tournaments? (I'll quote sources if you like, or you can google search about women at 40k tournaments) Is it PC to see the correlation between this mistreatment of our better-smelling halves and the wanton objectification of them? The stripper landraider as an example, that's not a GW model. You won't see a stripper landraider anywhere, even on Forgeworld. That's a guy showing his low opinion of women.

You make a lot of valid points, but I still don't see this LR as the model that is spear heading the utter debasement and repression of women. Seriously, I don't think that Khorne is the misogyny god. Don't get me wrong, this is definitely a male dominated area, and I would love to see more equality in the wargaming scene, but I also think the lady at my FLGS would a) laugh hard at that Land Raider and b) kick anyones ass on the table. She is one tough ass general and actually runs all of our tournaments

 Pyeatt wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
After lurking in another thread about tasteless models, a thought occurred to me: is 40k really a kids game? The models and lore, while occasionally silly, read more like a version of Heavy Metal or Akira. There are kids who come to play at my LGS, but most of them are fourteen or older. What do you guys think? Should there be an age limit on games like this, or do you think everyone should be welcome?

I bet you're talking about the stripper landraider.

Tasteless, vulgar, and discouraging for anyone not a complete pervert that wants to enter this hobby.

Most of the lore and books are easily PG-13. It's a bit sexist as an understatement. Fans just take it too far.

The SJW rears its ugly head again. Run ye who would dare go against his PC wrath

First I'd like to say I have no clue what SJW stands for. Second, if PC is supposed to stand for politically correct, then you're mistaken. Is it politically correct to want this game to appeal to women as well as men? Is it PC to be angered about the hostile climates many females experience at tournaments? (I'll quote sources if you like, or you can google search about women at 40k tournaments) Is it PC to see the correlation between this mistreatment of our better-smelling halves and the wanton objectification of them? The stripper landraider as an example, that's not a GW model. You won't see a stripper landraider anywhere, even on Forgeworld. That's a guy showing his low opinion of women.

If only there were a technological wonder that lets you have the worlds information at your finger tips then maybe you could figure it out. But as the thread and model you are referring to shows anything, is that you are on the minority most people dont care about it and overly sensitive people are the only ones making a big deal about it

Just because I'm the minority, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

 Pyeatt wrote:
Just because I'm the minority, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

While being in the minority doesnt usually make people wrong, in this case yes it does.

You're entitled to your opinion.

http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/2012/12/why-girls-dont-play-40k.html
http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/12/why-are-there-no-girl-wargamers/
http://www.chickhammer.com/2012/06/experiences-as-lady-in-wargaming.html?m=1

Granted these posts are focused on women, and that's a bit out of topic. But a hostile environment is a hostile environment.

Of course, it's a wonderful thing for kids. I don't know why people feel the need to rob their children of amazing and magical stories, all in the name of "protecting" them from some imagined harm. It really does make me sad when I read about parents stopping their kids from watching things like Star Wars and Goonies, and restrict them to patronizing tosh.

When I was a kid, no one really paid too much attention to what I was watching. My grandmother would rent me whatever I handed her in the video store (as she didn't know any better). I used to love hyper violent films like Robocop and Conan, and they never did me a bit of harm. If I'm honest, the 'adult-themed' parts weren't really of interest to me, so I barely even noticed them.

I actually wish I could go back and watch more stuff as a child. Horror movies, and low budget fantasy films are completely wasted on adults. All I can see now is crappy rubber masks and wooden acting. But as a kid it was all real, I miss that.

I don't think there is anything especially harmful in 40k, and kids will probably enjoy the fluff much more than discerning adults.

As for the original post, exceptions can be found in books, but for enough to form a fair generality, the game itself, and most of the lore, is fairly kid friendly. I think it's the fans that take it too far.

 Pyeatt wrote:
You're entitled to your opinion.

http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/2012/12/why-girls-dont-play-40k.html
http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/12/why-are-there-no-girl-wargamers/
http://www.chickhammer.com/2012/06/experiences-as-lady-in-wargaming.html?m=1

Granted these posts are focused on women, and that's a bit out of topic. But a hostile environment is a hostile environment.

Ah yes ignore the fact that you called everyone who thought the model was cool was a pervert and nothing more than that.

...daemonculaba... shudder


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ustrello wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
You're entitled to your opinion.

http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/2012/12/why-girls-dont-play-40k.html
http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/12/why-are-there-no-girl-wargamers/
http://www.chickhammer.com/2012/06/experiences-as-lady-in-wargaming.html?m=1

Granted these posts are focused on women, and that's a bit out of topic. But a hostile environment is a hostile environment.

Ah yes ignore the fact that you called everyone who thought the model was cool was a pervert and nothing more than that.

I stand by my statement that the image of that particular model was vulgar, cheap, and discouraging to any adult who wants to bring their kids to the store, and that people who really liked the model likely are perverted with low regard for women.

To say that that painter is talented is similar to complimenting a skillful animated porn artist.

 Pyeatt wrote:
...daemonculaba... shudder


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ustrello wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
You're entitled to your opinion.

http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/2012/12/why-girls-dont-play-40k.html
http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/12/why-are-there-no-girl-wargamers/
http://www.chickhammer.com/2012/06/experiences-as-lady-in-wargaming.html?m=1

Granted these posts are focused on women, and that's a bit out of topic. But a hostile environment is a hostile environment.

Ah yes ignore the fact that you called everyone who thought the model was cool was a pervert and nothing more than that.

I stand by my statement that the image of that particular model was vulgar, cheap, and discouraging to any adult who wants to bring their kids to the store, and that people who really liked the model likely are perverted with low regard for women.

To say that that painter is talented is similar to complimenting a skillful animated porn artist.

Interesting. I honestly would love to follow you around unseen and comment on everything you do. Seriously, you're taking a hard stance over a toy, going so far as to call people perverts. I really would like to see what you do behind closed doors, for you to have such a harsh opinion of others

Ailaros wrote:

Furyou Miko wrote:She was very morbid for a few years, then grew up to be one of those scary genius kids.

Please tell me that's a causation, not a correlation. My little girl is 15 months old and I will definitely stab a hobo in front of her tomorrow if it means she gets a high-paying job or something in academia.

Actually, if that were true, then what would really be kid-friendly would be something more graphic, rather than less. Sounds like I need to make my penis-slaanesh army, and soon. You know, for my little girl's future. Now just to get the wife to agree...

Sadly, my subject group is not large enough to give a definitive answer. I believe that the knowledge of impermenancy drove her to seek to excel as a way of leaving a lasting mark upon the world, however... but it's not the sort of thing that can be taught. Like true faith, that kind of personal philosophy has to come from inside.

 Smacks wrote:
Of course, it's a wonderful thing for kids. I don't know why people feel the need to rob their children of amazing and magical stories, all in the name of "protecting" them from some imagined harm. It really does make me sad when I read about parents stopping their kids from watching things like Star Wars and Goonies, and restrict them to patronizing tosh.

I know right? It is the mass media fault: A psychopath goes on the shooting spree and then the media say he played a violent game (usually CoD, but that is not the point) just to sell better, resulting in misguided braindead people to go on the ridicioulous anti -videogame crusades.. Now the point i am trying to make is that people are SOOOOO brainwashed that they already think a pieces of plastic soldiers are not kid friendly (aside from the price$), but that is GeeDubs we are talking about.
@OP: no offence meant

 Smacks wrote:
Of course, it's a wonderful thing for kids. I don't know why people feel the need to rob their children of amazing and magical stories, all in the name of "protecting" them from some imagined harm. It really does make me sad when I read about parents stopping their kids from watching things like Star Wars and Goonies, and restrict them to patronizing tosh.

When I was a kid, no one really paid too much attention to what I was watching. My grandmother would rent me whatever I handed her in the video store (as she didn't know any better). I used to love hyper violent films like Robocop and Conan, and they never did me a bit of harm. If I'm honest, the 'adult-themed' parts weren't really of interest to me, so I barely even noticed them.

I actually wish I could go back and watch more stuff as a child. Horror movies, and low budget fantasy films are completely wasted on adults. All I can see now is crappy rubber masks and wooden acting. But as a kid it was all real, I miss that.

I don't think there is anything especially harmful in 40k, and kids will probably enjoy the fluff much more than discerning adults.

I agree one hundred percent! The Game itself is absolutely fine. The people who play it are what makes it horrible on occasion.

I researched quite hard and in depth before I allowed my daughter to enter into this journey with me. she picked Tau, which is what I wanted her to pick (Thank you reverse psychology) The greater good is the way to go. I picked CSM and it actually works out perfect. Lore wise, if you have kids read it first. Its called being a parent. Thats a parental responsibility. As for Conan, I have seen it probably 100 times since it came out and I tell you, nothing is more awesome than swinging a sword around as a kid yelling "Kromb". I have a career, 3 Daughters and a wife. I don't think I turned out horribly minus the 3 years deployed. Thats a whole different story that cant be blamed on WH40K.

In short, let them play. When in doubt read it first. Know your kid. You are a leader, and thats what leaders do. Codex fluff of current is usually ok enough for 12+.


Now on to the sexist issues: I have 3 daughters. I love them more than anything in this world. A stripper land raider in a store where children come in is not in any way appropriate. Do I talk bad about women in front of them, absolutely not. I have a moral responsibility to show them that they are equals.

I am also a man. I like women and I didn't get 3 daughters because I stared real hard at thier mother and wished them into existance. If I was single tomorrow I would be out hounding around, and possibily frequenting the type of places that have real poles for dancing in them. does that make me bad? Does that make me a bad father? I would argue no. My oldest is well balanced, makes straight As in honors classes and will probably live a better life than I have(I hope). What I know is I appreciate a good joke and the female form as much as any man. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, NO MATTER WHAT ANY CRAZY LIBERAL IDIOT SAYS! There is something wrong with defacing women and debasing them to make them less than equal. No woman around me in a Game Shop would be treated horribly. But she would get hit on. After she says now, leave me alone, that is when the line starts to get crossed. Not before. Just my 2 cents as a father of 3 daughters.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
After lurking in another thread about tasteless models, a thought occurred to me: is 40k really a kids game? The models and lore, while occasionally silly, read more like a version of Heavy Metal or Akira. There are kids who come to play at my LGS, but most of them are fourteen or older. What do you guys think? Should there be an age limit on games like this, or do you think everyone should be welcome?

I bet you're talking about the stripper landraider.

Tasteless, vulgar, and discouraging for anyone not a complete pervert that wants to enter this hobby.

Most of the lore and books are easily PG-13. It's a bit sexist as an understatement. Fans just take it too far.

I think that's a bit much. Sure, tasteless, crass, and a bit sexist I could see, but I would HARDLY call people who think its cool looking perverts.

I think its because he is a bit of a hypocrite because if if he thinks that is perverted then this http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2014/8/14/638641_md-.jpg hits pretty close to what he calls perverted, which is one of his models.

 Ustrello wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
After lurking in another thread about tasteless models, a thought occurred to me: is 40k really a kids game? The models and lore, while occasionally silly, read more like a version of Heavy Metal or Akira. There are kids who come to play at my LGS, but most of them are fourteen or older. What do you guys think? Should there be an age limit on games like this, or do you think everyone should be welcome?

I bet you're talking about the stripper landraider.

Tasteless, vulgar, and discouraging for anyone not a complete pervert that wants to enter this hobby.

Most of the lore and books are easily PG-13. It's a bit sexist as an understatement. Fans just take it too far.

I think that's a bit much. Sure, tasteless, crass, and a bit sexist I could see, but I would HARDLY call people who think its cool looking perverts.

I think its because he is a bit of a hypocrite because if if he thinks that is perverted then this http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2014/8/14/638641_md-.jpg hits pretty close to what he calls perverted, which is one of his models.

wow, oh snap.

Kids aren't innocent blameless unicorns, and unless you homeschool yours and keep them locked up in the basement the rest of the time they're gonna absorb most of the basics just from friends and tv. Like penises and vaginas and skulls exploding when they get shot and people dying when they're dead. Watching the evening news is more horrific than all the goofy robot men and bikini elves and miniature skulls you can heap up.

Actually playing this game with weirdos at a gaming store? I'd be a little leery about that. There's plenty of people in the hobby that should have a big 21+ sticker on their forehead with surgeon general warnings of excessive odor and terrible opinions.

Plus, I think this whole thing can sort of be seen as similar to other kinds of issues, like sex ed or drugs. If your strategy is to shield your kids from "bad" things, they are doing to wind up getting fethed up when they come across them in the real world. It's why abstinance-only sex education has, on repeated empirical study, been shown to lead to HIGHER rates of teen pregnancy, not lower.

Likewise, not showing up to the game store with one's daughter because there was a miniature slutmobile is not going to have any negative correlation with the girl becoming a stripper.

It's those people who have a messed up understanding of sexuality or violence or drug use that wind up causing problems with those things. The kind of messed up understanding that can come from many places, including parents trying to pretend like the truth doesn't exist.

Badablack wrote:Actually playing this game with weirdos at a gaming store? I'd be a little leery about that. There's plenty of people in the hobby that should have a big 21+ sticker on their forehead with surgeon general warnings of excessive odor and terrible opinions.

lol



I wish I could say that none of that has ever applied to any of the players at my FLGS, but I have definitely seen at least a few shirts doffed in my day. Thankfully a vast majority of adult humor would just sail over the kids' heads.

Guess they have to find out sometime why it's funny, though.

 Pyeatt wrote:
...daemonculaba... shudder


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ustrello wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
You're entitled to your opinion.

http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/2012/12/why-girls-dont-play-40k.html
http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/12/why-are-there-no-girl-wargamers/
http://www.chickhammer.com/2012/06/experiences-as-lady-in-wargaming.html?m=1

Granted these posts are focused on women, and that's a bit out of topic. But a hostile environment is a hostile environment.

Ah yes ignore the fact that you called everyone who thought the model was cool was a pervert and nothing more than that.

I stand by my statement that the image of that particular model was vulgar, cheap, and discouraging to any adult who wants to bring their kids to the store, and that people who really liked the model likely are perverted with low regard for women.

To say that that painter is talented is similar to complimenting a skillful animated porn artist.

YES! Feed the hate! The chaos god are happy with this one.

I personally hate seeing snot nosed brats running around hobby shops... I like kids, but around delicate miniatures, young kids are a hazard. I remember this one kid just reached up to a table of RC cars and picked up a $300 Kyosho RC. After a moment of mock playing with it and dragging it across the floor, the parent tried to stop him and the kid bolted, tripped and landed on top of the RC crushing it... A sad day, glad it wasn't me.

Side Note: Anime artists, in general, are talented. I animated some flash videos and it is difficult time consuming work. Re-asses your way of thinking pal.

Tau are good. Read Tau. Now.

That is all.

 Pyeatt wrote:
...daemonculaba... shudder


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ustrello wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
You're entitled to your opinion.

http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/2012/12/why-girls-dont-play-40k.html
http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/12/why-are-there-no-girl-wargamers/
http://www.chickhammer.com/2012/06/experiences-as-lady-in-wargaming.html?m=1

Granted these posts are focused on women, and that's a bit out of topic. But a hostile environment is a hostile environment.

Ah yes ignore the fact that you called everyone who thought the model was cool was a pervert and nothing more than that.

I stand by my statement that the image of that particular model was vulgar, cheap, and discouraging to any adult who wants to bring their kids to the store, and that people who really liked the model likely are perverted with low regard for women.

To say that that painter is talented is similar to complimenting a skillful animated porn artist.

A skillful animated porn artist is still a skillful artist. You might not like the content, and that's your right, but don't act like there's anything that separates the talents and skill of an erotic artist from those of a non-erotic artist. Milo Manara has a longer-running career, and is a truer artist, than Thomas Kinkade. Straight, Gay, Lesbian, Transsexual... there's porn for everyone (except snuff films. Those don't actually exist. Believe me, the FBI has been trying to find one for 60 years, and have been unable to.). It is the true reason for the commercial development of the internet, and is what continues to drive faster internet speeds, better video compression rates, and improvements in graphic card technology. MMOs? Distant runners to the juggernaut of Business that is Pornography... to the tune of $8bn annually against $14+bn a year. Blizzard ain't got nothin' on Playboy.

In fact, fantasy gaming and fiction, and by extension 40K, is pretty well defined by decades of cheesecake and beefcake art.... and pornography is just basically another kind of fantasy fiction. Fantasy fiction has long depicted human sexuality in a variety of guises, some rather overt, and in ways and manners that often fall outside societal norms. That is, basically, one of the functions of the genre, to question what society values, and why, and to explore societies that live differently than we do. While 40K has moved away from this concept in recent years, it's still very much there, in its form of dystopian satire, where there's a god, specifically, of "Pleasure, Vice and Perversion"... and also a satirization of the Catholic Church at its Dark Ages power-level, and hints of sexual shenanigans going on behind the scenes, as if ripped from today's headlines (and, historically with 40K, not even hidden... the Sisters of Battle were known as the Brides of the Emperor under Vandire, and he used them, and loaned them out as, his sex slaves).

Do I think you should expose children to porn? Of course not. They'll find it on their own easily enough when they get old enough to be interested in watching other people doin' it. Of course, there's nothing pornographic about that tank... two naked women in cages is not porn (might be exploitative, perhaps, but that's a much bigger grey area, and requires much more than a static image to decide).

 Paradigm wrote:
With most of 40k, there's enough vagueness t background and setting that you can make of it what you will. You can look at or as utterly grim dark, emotionally futile and rather horrific, or you can take it as written which is no more unpleasant than most kids/teen fiction these days.

well if you are cool with opening your kids to blood,war,violence,torture,mayhem, then sure its friendly...me i'm not biased nor will i shelter my kids, the whole idea that "sheltering kids from bad things" is pure crap..i grew up unsheltered, my parents let me learn what and see what i wanted(obviously to some limits) and i'm perfectly fine, i'm just like everybody else in the world, i go to work,pay bills, cook, clean and so fourth...but i think the open childhood has left me open minded and more tolerent to many things

The only way to teach tolerance is to teach openness.

Some people are strongly opposed to teaching tolerance.

After all, only evil people tolerate sexual differences.

No, I'm not personally open/polyamorous. I have my closed family unit and that is it. But I am tolerant!

Superficially, it is (codex, rulebook and such).

When the kid start to grown up, its up to him to search for additional fluff, and start to go into the real grim darkness of 40k.

Particularly,im not a kid, and im just now goying into the novels, and only now i understand what make 40k so grimdark after all.

Not sure its sheltering when you stop them from viewing violence as "fine". Recent events have accelerated our society wide intolerance for it.

But this ias the land of make beleive and as we grow older and can more easily discern things, i think it's easier to introduce the ideas. I was a jaded youth, grew up in a house of totally morally corrupt people and hated every second of my life until IO was able to get away from it. But I had parents who "wouldnt shelter me" also and I have not thanked them for it one day in my life.

So like i said: I tell him they are the bad guys and leave it at that.

It is clearly not intended for kids. The universe, even nowadays, isn't in "Black and White". There are many grey areas everywhere, even in what you would like to call "the good guys". Many things are quite deep if you think a bit about it.

The game itself isn't so simple as well. Rules are heavy and not so intuitive for a new player. Playing a game takes a lot of time as well (comparing to other games in general, I mean). It is also very specific - kids who play usually play against older people. It's not so common to see them play with people with the same age.

It is more about the people who have "the plastic soldier gene". There is no true age, but it is more about teens at the very least. Younger children can play, of course, depending of the education, the maturity and if they like to play with "plastic soldiers"...but it's more an exception than the main rule and they tend not to really use the game rules (it's more about actually playing with toy soldiers or rolling dices without caring about what it means in the rules). Usually, kids don't have the needed focus for such a "time eater" hobby like Warhammer Battle or 40k.

Jancoran wrote:Not sure its sheltering when you stop them from viewing violence as "fine". Recent events have accelerated our society wide intolerance for it.

There's a difference between exposure and endorsement.

It's the people who have had no experience, no training, no prior understanding of something that have problems with it. They have no choice but to brute-force their way through it manually. If you know literally nothing about sex, you're going to have to learn everything by trial and error. You're going to learn everything the hard way. And by hard, I mean stupid.

Same thing for everything else. If you want to avoid the prohibition paradox, you've got to expose and educate, not pretend that something is always bad and you should never even know about it or think about it ever la la la.

Plus, there is a great deal of philosophy with regards to exactly the conditions in which violence is "fine". Not everybody agrees that violence is never justified ever on any occasion.

The game mechanics itself are fine and easy to learn for children. The level of violence in the game is very low compared to computer-games.

The fluff consists mainly of teen and young adult pulp: empowerment fantasies dipped in a horror sauce. Not suited for the very youngest readers but fine for everyone else.

If you turned 40 into a movie and did it right, it would be rated R.

The space marine game was rated M after all.

Saying it's for kids is sugar coating it.

 Lockark wrote:
If you turned 40 into a movie and did it right, it would be rated R.

The space marine game was rated M after all.

Saying it's for kids is sugar coating it.

Funny because half the "gore" was just giant red blobs. Seriously, they could have gone a lot farther with the gore in my eyes. Manhunt had the same level of gore, yet felt WAY more adult due to the tone of the game, compared to the rambo-esque Space Marine

 Ailaros wrote:

Jancoran wrote:Not sure its sheltering when you stop them from viewing violence as "fine". Recent events have accelerated our society wide intolerance for it.

There's a difference between exposure and endorsement.

It's the people who have had no experience, no training, no prior understanding of something that have problems with it. They have no choice but to brute-force their way through it manually. If you know literally nothing about sex, you're going to have to learn everything by trial and error. You're going to learn everything the hard way. And by hard, I mean stupid.

Same thing for everything else. If you want to avoid the prohibition paradox, you've got to expose and educate, not pretend that something is always bad and you should never even know about it or think about it ever la la la.

Plus, there is a great deal of philosophy with regards to exactly the conditions in which violence is "fine". Not everybody agrees that violence is never justified ever on any occasion.

I wont tell anyone else how to handle their kids i guess but EXPOSURE is endorsement. At certain ages, ignorance is absolutely bliss and where that line is will differ.

for me, I dont think a 10 year old really is going to make good enough distinctions to be trusted with all the knowledge on the games fluff. they are already active, impetuous and they like to cling to things that sound good instead of good sound reasons. and in a couple years, once he has a little more stable moral foundation and is more intentional in his choices, I'll say "sure, cant coddle em forever". But for now i can and being the bad guys is all he's being told. He's watched enough cartoons to know what bad guys are without having to get into the intimate and disturbing things that the Grimdark features in places.

The game is absolutely fine for the 10+ crowd. The fluff? Depends on what faction and what era.

Like anything else, though, what the fans bring to it can run the gamut from G-rated to triple-X. Much like MMOs and fan-made mods in that respect, I suppose.

I remember being 11 years old and reading the fluff excerpts from the 2nd edition rulebooks over and over. In particular, I remember one about a Chaos Lord entering some kind of meditative trance to preserve a particularly tasty memory (which I'm pretty sure was crushing someone's throat with his tentacle-arms).

The fluff was all very dark, but I don't remember being particularly disturbed by it. I feel like the 40k Universe is very "cartoony"- yes there's a lot of violence, but it feels very far removed from reality, and all the participants kind of have an equal share. A game involves two factions of brave warriors duking it out.

A lot of video games, in contrast, deal a lot with the killing of unarmed civilians. Heck, that's most of the FUN in some games. I'd much rather have my kid playing Chaos than Grand Theft Auto.

It appears to me that the 40k Hobby has 3 aspects to consider when exposing children to it. First there is the modelling aspect, the assembly and painting of the models themselves. Secondly, there is the tabletop wargaming aspect, taking care of handling the models and knowing the rules to play the game. And Thirdly, there is the accompanying fiction that goes along with the 40K universe.

The modelling aspect is roughly 12+ age wise. But exceptions will be made concerning the child's natural aptitude and maturity levels while handling the tools/materials used for assembly and painting models. As has been pointed out in another thread, if fully grown adults can injure themselves while working on their model of choice. It should be up to the parent to decide how much guidance their child should receive when assembling and painting models.

As to the actual wargamming aspect of the game. This comes down to maturity and intellect of the child. No one wants to play with a spastic 6 year old who tosses the models around. Not when we put in all the hours to paint and assemble them in the first place. The actual gaming side of knowing the rules, can be spoon-fed as the child can handle the material in question. As the kid gets more used to the rules and starts to memorize them, he gains better comprehension from the more exposure to the rules.

In regards towards the fiction/art of the hobby, that is up to the parent to preview before deciding whether or not to expose their child to it. But that goes for any form of literature or artwork. It is to the parent to decide what is acceptable and what is not for their child/children.

 Ustrello wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
After lurking in another thread about tasteless models, a thought occurred to me: is 40k really a kids game? The models and lore, while occasionally silly, read more like a version of Heavy Metal or Akira. There are kids who come to play at my LGS, but most of them are fourteen or older. What do you guys think? Should there be an age limit on games like this, or do you think everyone should be welcome?

I bet you're talking about the stripper landraider.

Tasteless, vulgar, and discouraging for anyone not a complete pervert that wants to enter this hobby.

Most of the lore and books are easily PG-13. It's a bit sexist as an understatement. Fans just take it too far.

I think that's a bit much. Sure, tasteless, crass, and a bit sexist I could see, but I would HARDLY call people who think its cool looking perverts.

I think its because he is a bit of a hypocrite because if if he thinks that is perverted then this http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2014/8/14/638641_md-.jpg hits pretty close to what he calls perverted, which is one of his models.

Funny that it has been deleted and he's gone strangely silent.

Like any game, without going deep in the narrative fiction weeds, the game is fine for kids of stable maturity with good role models to give them guidance. Putting an age limit on it is like putting a universal beer threshold on drunk; the results are ill fitting and do not reflect reality.

 gunslingerpro wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
After lurking in another thread about tasteless models, a thought occurred to me: is 40k really a kids game? The models and lore, while occasionally silly, read more like a version of Heavy Metal or Akira. There are kids who come to play at my LGS, but most of them are fourteen or older. What do you guys think? Should there be an age limit on games like this, or do you think everyone should be welcome?

I bet you're talking about the stripper landraider.

Tasteless, vulgar, and discouraging for anyone not a complete pervert that wants to enter this hobby.

Most of the lore and books are easily PG-13. It's a bit sexist as an understatement. Fans just take it too far.

I think that's a bit much. Sure, tasteless, crass, and a bit sexist I could see, but I would HARDLY call people who think its cool looking perverts.

I think its because he is a bit of a hypocrite because if if he thinks that is perverted then this http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2014/8/14/638641_md-.jpg hits pretty close to what he calls perverted, which is one of his models.

Funny that it has been deleted and he's gone strangely silent.

Like any game, without going deep in the narrative fiction weeds, the game is fine for kids of stable maturity with good role models to give them guidance. Putting an age limit on it is like putting a universal beer threshold on drunk; the results are ill fitting and do not reflect reality.

Either he is a troll or a coward. But it basically was a woman with two strips of cloth for clothes, badly painted, but still exactly what he was calling perverted.

Compared to a lot of classic Sci Fi and fantasy, 40K is pretty tame overall, yes there are parts of it that need warning labels but the majority is pretty safe, in my opinion*.

*This is coming from a guy who read illustrated books on the Aztec empire before he got 8 candles on his birthday cake.

All about the age group. At some ages its fine and other ages its not. Be in no hurry to have murder on the mind of your neighbors kids. Lol.

Well, I'd say that, so long as they (as in the kids) don't get to some of the darker, more brutal parts of the lore, it's fairly child-friendly. The gameplay has nothing really violent at all.

That and many children don't seem to fully comprehend the truly massive scale of the brutality and just, sort of move on to get to more interesting stuff.

While this may be my limited experience around younger 40k players many know that it is just fiction and not to be taken seriously. After all this is a game where Ninja Space Elves in Spandex and plastic suits are throwing mono-molecular thin discs at OP 8 foot super-humans in armour made of a fictional metal with guns that fire rounds larger than grenades and actually hurting them (and occasionally winning)....

When I started this hobby back in 1986, I think it was for ages 16 and up but I think that had as much to do with the fact that the models were lead and modelling knives and superglue were a prerequisite in figure construction.

As for the fluff- I saw one of the most disturbing images of my life in the book Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned. An illustration of a Greater Unclean One by John Blanche (I think) and that has sat with me ever since.

If we're talking modern models I suppose it'd okay for 10 year olds, but if we're talking fluff- I would say older

This reminds me of a time in my LGS a while ago when a little kid asked who was playing the good buy in a 40k game. They all just sat there looking at each other awkwardly and said there weren't really any good guys. Since there were Tau in the battle they ended up saying the Tau were the good guys after the kid kept asking.

I think (and this is without actually playing the game, just watching batreps and stuff on youtube cuz I like the minis and fluff) that the tabletop game is kid friendly, with the exception of maybe some demon minis or I hear that there were topless dark eldar slaves, which would obviously be a bit much to use against a little kid. I'd say if the kid can comprehend the rules and they enjoy then it's fine. Sure they'll need an adult for some of the modeling and painting, but eventually they'd understand and do it themselves.

The fluff on the other hand, isn't at all kid friendly. (I've only just started reading it, currently starting book 7 of the HH) There were definitely parts of Fulgrim in particular that weren't for kids, from the artist cutting herself to . That definitely isn't for kids, and maybe the violence is bad too. There was stuff in the HH that my parents would ground me if they knew I read, and I just turned 16.

Kid friendly? Not so much, small bits, self assembly, painting etc

Kid's parents wallet friendly? Nope

 zombiekila707 wrote:
You read the HH books!! "Fear to Tread" has some dark parts where it talks about mutilated corpses of children....

kids really dont care about whether the corpses are kids or not.Never in my life has a book ever scared me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Smacks wrote:
. It really does make me sad when I read about parents stopping their kids from watching things like Star Wars

No. I refuse to believe that any parent would be cruel enough to stop their kid from seeing star wars.As a matter of fact my 6 year old sister loves star wars(altough I am hesitant to show her the prequels in case she grows up not hating jar jar)

It's really too subjective to put a hard age limit on it. What I would say is that there's enough "dark" and vaguely adult stuff in it that no parent of a kid younger than 11 or so should let their kid play 40k without the parent at least being aware of what's in the fluff.

If the parent thinks the kid can handle it, than that's great. As a parent, I'm usually (though not always) far more concerned about parent's who don't care -or at least give serious thought to- what their kids are reading/watching/playing than I am concerned about exactly what they are reading/watching/playing. Most parents will make a good choice for their kids if they stop long enough to think about it.

It's the parents who don't take the time to know, and who let the kids make all those decisions that are the problem. It's called being an involved parent.

40k is fine for kids (including the lore).

 Eilif wrote:
It's really too subjective to put a hard age limit on it. What I would say is that there's enough "dark" and vaguely adult stuff in it that no parent of a kid younger than 11 or so should let their kid play 40k without the parent at least being aware of what's in the fluff.

Would you also put an age limit on reading history, specifically referring to medieval, classical, and the world wars?

All of these topics have sections that are as dark, if not darker then the lore for 40k.

It's the parents who don't take the time to know, and who let the kids make all those decisions that are the problem. It's called being an involved parent.

I would disagree.

Why does a parent have to make decisions about what their kid can and can't like?

12 years and up is appropriate for the material and hobby activities (painting/play-style/etc).

Windchild wrote:
40k is fine for kids (including the lore).

First of all, please clarify what ages you mean by "Kids".

Windchild wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
It's really too subjective to put a hard age limit on it. What I would say is that there's enough "dark" and vaguely adult stuff in it that no parent of a kid younger than 11 or so should let their kid play 40k without the parent at least being aware of what's in the fluff.

Would you also put an age limit on reading history, specifically referring to medieval, classical, and the world wars?

All of these topics have sections that are as dark, if not darker then the lore for 40k.

Congratulations on completely missing the point.

The point is that a parent needs to be aware of what their child is into. The point isn't that a parent would ban the kid from reading history. It's that the parent would know that your ten year old kid is reading history and not porn. It's that the parent would know that their 8 year old is reading an overview of WW2 and not a detailed account of Nazi concentration camp experiments.

The point is not me telling someone else what is not appropriate for the kids and it's certainly not you saying what is appropriate. It's the parent's job to know their child, their child's maturity, sensitivities and strengths and to judge what is appropriate for their child.

Clearly there are some lines where society and the government, will step in, but up to that point, it's the parent's job.

Windchild wrote:

It's the parents who don't take the time to know, and who let the kids make all those decisions that are the problem. It's called being an involved parent.

I would disagree.

Why does a parent have to make decisions about what their kid can and can't like?

And you would be wrong.

It's not a matter of what a kid like's. Most parents recognize that most of a kids "likes" are thier own, but yes, there are some times that a parent is going to make decisions about what kids are allowed to like. Some kids (most kids at some point, in my experience) like taking things that belong to other kids. Some kids like hitting other kids. Some kids like hurting animals. Are you really going to try and tell me parents shouldn't exert their influence over what a kids likes?

It's a matter of what the kid is mature enough for. "G" is the rating for everyone, but there are some G-rated cartoons that I know my 3 1/2 year old is not emotionally ready for.

I'll be the judge of when he's ready for 40k, thank you very much.

 Eilif wrote:

First of all, please clarify what ages you mean by "Kids".

8 to 12 is the age group I am talking about.

The point is that a parent needs to be aware of what their child is into. The point isn't that a parent would ban the kid from reading history. It's that the parent would know that your ten year old kid is reading history and not porn. It's that the parent would know that their 8 year old is reading an overview of WW2 and not a detailed account of Nazi concentration camp experiments.

The point is not me telling someone else what is not appropriate for the kids and it's certainly not you saying what is appropriate. It's the parent's job to know their child, their child's maturity, sensitivities and strengths and to judge what is appropriate for their child.

Clearly there are some lines where society and the government, will step in, but up to that point, it's the parent's job.

I agree. However, some history can easily be taken as 'porn'. Classical studies especially have large amounts of nudity.

It does depend on the kid.

And you would be wrong.

It's not a matter of what a kid like's. Most parents recognize that most of a kids "likes" are thier own, but yes, there are some times that a parent is going to make decisions about what kids are allowed to like. Some kids (most kids at some point, in my experience) like taking things that belong to other kids. Some kids like hitting other kids. Some kids like hurting animals. Are you really going to try and tell me parents shouldn't exert their influence over what a kids likes?

It's a matter of what the kid is mature enough for. "G" is the rating for everyone, but there are some G-rated cartoons that I know my 3 1/2 year old is not emotionally ready for.

I'll be the judge of when he's ready for 40k, thank you very much.

In your opinion, ofc.

You have that right as a parent. I just don't agree with forcing kids to stop doing something because you disagree with it (or keeping them away from it).

My main concern would be that they are careful with knives, aren't huffing the paints/glues and are working in a well ventilated area.

Fluff wise I'd just want to make sure I know what they're reading.

I know one of the reasons my parents didn't like me collecting WHFB and 40k is because I'd play in the local GW store that was cramped and noisy with stale smelly air and all the people at the painting desks were hunched over with terrible posture, they'd rather me out and about breathing fresh air and standing up straight

As a parent I can keep it at a kid age level of 6 and 7 to match the age of my kids, then it's just toy soldiers and bad guys. I think as the child ages and he/she likes the game still or is getting into it that you as the parent can keep it age appropriate. Just my opinion. However, if you have the little bookworm that eats up books then good luck keeping it age appropriate.

Windchild wrote:

I just don't agree with forcing kids to stop doing something because you disagree with it (or keeping them away from it).

You still come back to this ridiculous statement. It's shocking that it is your response to my statement about kids stealing, hitting and hurting. There are all kinds of bad things that kids are attracted to and it's your JOB as a parent to train them otherwise.

If/When you become a parent (assuming you aren't one now) every week (probably every day) you will be keeping your kids away from things that they aren't ready for or aren't good for them. This kind of blanket "let the children lead the way" is simply not compatible with good childrearing.

It's a dangerous world out there with bad things. Over the timeline of their childhood a parent should incrementally prepare the child to deal with these things. However, that does not change the fact that there are some things 8-12 year olds are not ready for, some things they should not be engaging in, and some things they are not ready for the full knowledge of.

To be a parent is to be a social conditioning device. To be otherwise, is to be a mere genetic donor. If you're not teaching your children not to be violent, greedy little misanthropes, you need a kick up the bum.

I wouldn't want really young kids to play this (I played it when I was 9 or 10 with my 14 year old brother, Nurgle scared the crap out of me), but kids 12 or older I think could deal with the fact that this future has no happy anything.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think the game itself and the basic lore is harmless enough.

Once you go deeper, probably not.

I've read some HH books. (up to the 11-13th ish book) Fulgrim. . . is not for children. Remembrancers. . . not for children.

What's wrong with Remembrancers? Do you just not think journalists should be exposed to kids?

 Jancoran wrote:
for me, I dont think a 10 year old really is going to make good enough distinctions to be trusted with all the knowledge on the games fluff. they are already active, impetuous and they like to cling to things that sound good instead of good sound reasons. and in a couple years, once he has a little more stable moral foundation and is more intentional in his choices, I'll say "sure, cant coddle em forever". But for now i can and being the bad guys is all he's being told. He's watched enough cartoons to know what bad guys are without having to get into the intimate and disturbing things that the Grimdark features in places.

Well, if you manage to keep a ten year old away from any TV anywhere AND other kids at school, and many other way more harmful things that are part of the culture, then maybe you could have a point.

In my opinion, small things like 40K, violence (graphic) and sex are nothing compared to brainwashing your child into accepting his fate as a slave with no glorious future and no individuality, something the culture does all the time, especially at school.

But hey, if you think the non-ignorance of sex and violence is going to do them more harm, ...

I started collecting warhammer 40k when I was 11 (in 2006) and back then, the fluff in my Space Marine codex was pretty adequate background reading and storytelling for me as I was getting into this cool new hobby.

My dad thought it was great I took to this hobby because he'd enjoyed a similar thing when he was younger as well, so I'm guessing he checked out 40k when I told him about it after I'd heard from my friends at school that it was pretty cool. He let me do my thing because he'd known he'd brought me up in a realistic way, not shielding me from too much so I wasn't naive, letting me make my own choices about religion etc.

Because kids around that age are pretty active anyway, I don't think it's much of a worry that they'll get into any dark and graphic fluff on their own. What my dad did was buy me a couple of 40k novels at birthdays and Christmases that were suitable for a kid of 12-14. First 40k book I ever read was the first Ultramarines Omnibus and I loved it.

So yeah, don't prevent your kids from seeing stuff altogether, just show them the less dark stuff and let them develop their own taste from there