GW seems to be going direct only on many models and kits. This is more true in fantasy than 40k. My question is "how does GW get around a Vertical Monopoly situation?"
For a moment forget about FLGS and supporting a playing space. From a pure manufacturing view I don't understand how this works. The farther they take it the worse it will be for them.
In the case of direct only items, GW owns the manufacturing and the sales. This is clearly a vertical monopoly on these items. Manufacturing will produce X amount of product. X will be determined by their profit maximizing volume. This volume then becomes the sales/stores wings marginal cost. Sales will then order Y amount of product to meet their profit maximizing point. in essence sales will only request a fraction of what manufacturing is looking to produce. This is a losing battle is it not?
basically X does not = Y.
The only valid argument for this would be to control the customer experience at both ends. But every one knows GW shops are not the ideal place to play games. They often have very limited space and want to push through customers ASAP.
Why would they need to 'get around it'? A vertical monopoly is not considered anti-competitive as long as others can operate the same type of business. Is GW preventing other companies from making wargames or selling miniatures?
Lots of miniature companies on the market right now are so-called 'vertical monopolies' of their own products. Not every mini manufacturer sells all or any of their products via retailers.
You seem to think that companies shouldn't have a monopoly on their own manufactured items, when in fact they do because it is theirs.
I don't know what your premise is... that it is illegal? or how they are avoiding legal repercussions? Well the answer to that is 'it isn't a monopoly, and isn't illegal'.
An attempt to maximize profit by getting you hooked on the products available at a discount and then having you pay full retail for your additional purchases.
If they did any market research they could really exploit this system by moving all the units which appear in the top tournament builds to direct only.
nkelsch wrote: Why would they need to 'get around it'? A vertical monopoly is not considered anti-competitive as long as others can operate the same type of business. Is GW preventing other companies from making wargames or selling miniatures?
Lots of miniature companies on the market right now are so-called 'vertical monopolies' of their own products. Not every mini manufacturer sells all or any of their products via retailers.
You seem to think that companies shouldn't have a monopoly on their own manufactured items, when in fact they do because it is theirs.
I don't know what your premise is... that it is illegal? or how they are avoiding legal repercussions? Well the answer to that is 'it isn't a monopoly, and isn't illegal'.
The OP is questioning the sanity of vertical monopoly as restricting your distribution reduces your abilities to increase sales and recruit.
There is no sanity. It's GW. They don't do research, have no focus groups, don't ask the market what they want because it's "otiose in a niche market". They've stated under oath and penalty of perjury that they believe their customers favorite past times are buying GW products from GW.
Everything has to result in more sales, and they don't care if it screws over everybody else. They are stuck in the 1980s and think that the sun never sets on a GW store.
They think that direct only products will force the customer to their stores or website. But convenience is a factor they overlook, it's not convenient or desirable to always go to a GW store or make Internet mail orders. While they must think it forces sales to them as the sole provider, I'm sure they must lose a good chunk due to the inconvenience and the lack of advertising. They probably over estimate the desirability of their product, it's not so great they can force people to solely buy through their website, it's more likely they'll go elsewhere. Which is what appears to have been happening to GW sales of late. I'm not saying that's the only reason for falling sales, but rising prices and product quality are all factors that add up. When your stuff is already overpriced with dubious quality, reducing availability is not a clever move.
I was just trying to get at the economics of the set up. I don't see how it can ever work. I was just wondering if anyone had any idea what GW may be thinking economically.
I think the real reason is to slowly bleed discounters and any FLGS that offers a discount (some offer a small one, even if not the 20% or more that you can find from online only places) because I bet that it gets under their skin that people buy their products at a discount.
Remember this is a company that destroyed unsold copies of a game (Dreadfleet) and chose to write off the production costs as a loss rather than offer any sort of discount to at least make SOME profit, because they felt that a discount of any sort would devalue it.
TBH I'm still surprised that some of their boxed armies offer a good discount.
It's all a desire to A) Control the supply and B) Cut out discounters so you have to pay full retail if you want it, and maybe C) Encourage you go to go your local GW except that most places outside the UK don't have a local GW store.
Basically I think it's because they want to maximize profit. How do they do that? They cut out the middle man. Now, instead of the retailer getting a cut, GW gets it all. Thus they seek to maximize profit it a way that on paper makes sense, but in reality is completely moronic.
They honestly believe that if something isn't available at a retailer, you'll buy it from them directly. I mean, what are you gonna do? Not buy their stuff? Not play their game? If you want "x" but "x" is only available directly from GW, then you'll buy it directly from GW!
I'm not saying it works, and I'm not saying it makes sense, but it's what GW thinks.
It's similar to why they don't do Specialist Games anymore. They believe that if you buy Necromunda, that means you're not buying 40K; furthermore, if you can't buy Necromunda, you'll just say "Oh well!" and buy 40K.
This is also the company whose reps, when asked "So what you're saying is, if someone collects Space Wolves, you think they'll buy Ork Nobz just because the Ork Nobz are 'cool models'?" replied "Absolutely!"
RatBot wrote: Basically I think it's because they want to maximize profit. How do they do that? They cut out the middle man. Now, instead of the retailer getting a cut, GW gets it all. Thus they seek to maximize profit it a way that on paper makes sense, but in reality is completely moronic.
They honestly believe that if something isn't available at a retailer, you'll buy it from them directly. I mean, what are you gonna do? Not buy their stuff? Not play their game? If you want "x" but "x" is only available directly from GW, then you'll buy it directly from GW!
I'm not saying it works, and I'm not saying it makes sense, but it's what GW thinks.
It's similar to why they don't do Specialist Games anymore. They believe that if you buy Necromunda, that means you're not buying 40K; furthermore, if you can't buy Necromunda, you'll just say "Oh well!" and buy 40K.
This is also the company whose reps, when asked "So what you're saying is, if someone collects Space Wolves, you think they'll buy Ork Nobz just because the Ork Nobz are 'cool models'?" replied "Absolutely!"
Very interesting point of view. I wonder when/how they got so out of touch. I would call myself a casual player but from what I have read over the years it feels like a great product with poor management. But then again the game has been around and making money for a loooong time. Who am I to judge.
RatBot wrote: Basically I think it's because they want to maximize profit. How do they do that? They cut out the middle man. Now, instead of the retailer getting a cut, GW gets it all. Thus they seek to maximize profit it a way that on paper makes sense, but in reality is completely moronic.
They honestly believe that if something isn't available at a retailer, you'll buy it from them directly. I mean, what are you gonna do? Not buy their stuff? Not play their game? If you want "x" but "x" is only available directly from GW, then you'll buy it directly from GW!
I'm not saying it works, and I'm not saying it makes sense, but it's what GW thinks.
It's similar to why they don't do Specialist Games anymore. They believe that if you buy Necromunda, that means you're not buying 40K; furthermore, if you can't buy Necromunda, you'll just say "Oh well!" and buy 40K.
This is also the company whose reps, when asked "So what you're saying is, if someone collects Space Wolves, you think they'll buy Ork Nobz just because the Ork Nobz are 'cool models'?" replied "Absolutely!"
Very interesting point of view. I wonder when/how they got so out of touch. I would call myself a casual player but from what I have read over the years it feels like a great product with poor management. But then again the game has been around and making money for a loooong time. Who am I to judge.
Supposedly it's been for a while, since the end of 2nd edition so almost 15 years ago. I recall reading somewhere with 3rd edition they decided they needed to push people into buying more and more and more, so ever since then it's been a downward spiral encouraging larger armies with bigger models, constant price hikes and now a way (i.e. Unbound) to finally remove faction barriers, which were the one thing remaining that stopped people from buying outside their own armies. They really do seem to think that everyone is going to buy the Dark Eldar codex and models because they look that cool, whether or not they play Dark Eldar, because Unbound lets them use what they bought.
Also while they are technically making money, they are also losing sales and customers. So they are treading down a road where, eventually, it goes off a cliff. They're just walking very slowly and not paying attention to the warning signs saying "DANGER! TURN BACK!". But eventually they're going to reach the edge and fall off the cliff to join the bones of TSR and other companies who also ignored the warnings at the bottom. It's just a matter of time.
What I find most ironic is the blurb in the 7th edition rulebook about how the end of days is coming, and it's the eleventh hour before all is lost. That's a pretty apt analogy for GW itself. They are in their twilight, and it's just a matter of time before the clock strikes midnight.
It plays in to their current business strategy of making the most amount of money from the least amount of people. Sure, some people won't buy models if they're direct only, but the ones that do buy it you don't have that pesky middleman of a 3rd party store stealing all your profits.
It's worth noting that a great deal of their profits over the past few years have been due to massive cost-cutting efforts as well. So, while they are fairly profitable, much of that comes from fat-trimming which is not sustainable.
Don't look into the politics of it too much. You'll probably find a lot of products are "Direct Only" because the shops simply don't have the space to stock all of the products. Have a look around your local GW, any spare space on the walls, nope. They stock mostly just the best sellers, new releases and staple needs for your armies.
How many "Lucius the Eternal's" will an average GW sell in a month compared with a box of Tactical Marines. Besides if you want a "Direct only" or "Web Exclusive" model just ask the staff and they will have it ordered and delivered postage free to the shop within the week.
(lol, look at me defending GW direct only policy and I haven't been in the local shop all year. )
Marleymoo wrote: Don't look into the politics of it too much. You'll probably find a lot of products are "Direct Only" because the shops simply don't have the space to stock all of the products. Have a look around your local GW, any spare space on the walls, nope. They stock mostly just the best sellers, new releases and staple needs for your armies.
How many "Lucius the Eternal's" will an average GW sell in a month compared with a box of Tactical Marines. Besides if you want a "Direct only" or "Web Exclusive" model just ask the staff and they will have it ordered and delivered postage free to the shop within the week.
(lol, look at me defending GW direct only policy and I haven't been in the local shop all year. )
What if I told you not everyone has a local GW to do that? Esp. in North America, where the OP is from.
Marleymoo wrote: Don't look into the politics of it too much. You'll probably find a lot of products are "Direct Only" because the shops simply don't have the space to stock all of the products. Have a look around your local GW, any spare space on the walls, nope. They stock mostly just the best sellers, new releases and staple needs for your armies.
How many "Lucius the Eternal's" will an average GW sell in a month compared with a box of Tactical Marines. Besides if you want a "Direct only" or "Web Exclusive" model just ask the staff and they will have it ordered and delivered postage free to the shop within the week.
(lol, look at me defending GW direct only policy and I haven't been in the local shop all year. )
Yeah.
Brick-and-mortar stores probably aren't losing sleep over having more shelf space for Space Marines, Codices, and other perennial staples, and probably aren't losing a lot of profit on (most) of the "Web exclusive" models, which would probably just gather dust.
Marleymoo wrote: Don't look into the politics of it too much. You'll probably find a lot of products are "Direct Only" because the shops simply don't have the space to stock all of the products. Have a look around your local GW, any spare space on the walls, nope. They stock mostly just the best sellers, new releases and staple needs for your armies.
How many "Lucius the Eternal's" will an average GW sell in a month compared with a box of Tactical Marines. Besides if you want a "Direct only" or "Web Exclusive" model just ask the staff and they will have it ordered and delivered postage free to the shop within the week.
(lol, look at me defending GW direct only policy and I haven't been in the local shop all year. )
Again, this is a Euro-centric view. The closest GW to me is a six hour drive. There are plenty of people in the States who would need to drive even further than that. But, why would we? GW stores are shoe boxes when compared to most independent retailers. One guy running a small store that doesn't have open gaming tables and only sells one line of product? That's pretty much the recipe for a failed business here.
My local store has 17,000 square feet of gaming/retail space and his GW blisters rack was a thing to behold prior to the Finecast debacle. Blisters were $10-15 impulse buys. Now, half the codes are Direct Only. How many impulse buys does that get you? GW fails because it is willfully ignorant of how things work outside of the UK retail bubble. But keep trying to mash that square peg in that round hole, G-Dub...
Marleymoo wrote: Don't look into the politics of it too much. You'll probably find a lot of products are "Direct Only" because the shops simply don't have the space to stock all of the products. Have a look around your local GW, any spare space on the walls, nope. They stock mostly just the best sellers, new releases and staple needs for your armies.
How many "Lucius the Eternal's" will an average GW sell in a month compared with a box of Tactical Marines. Besides if you want a "Direct only" or "Web Exclusive" model just ask the staff and they will have it ordered and delivered postage free to the shop within the week.
(lol, look at me defending GW direct only policy and I haven't been in the local shop all year. )
Again, this is a Euro-centric view. The closest GW to me is a six hour drive. There are plenty of people in the States who would need to drive even further than that. But, why would we? GW stores are shoe boxes when compared to most independent retailers. One guy running a small store that doesn't have open gaming tables and only sells one line of product? That's pretty much the recipe for a failed business here.
My local store has 17,000 square feet of gaming/retail space and his GW blisters rack was a thing to behold prior to the Finecast debacle. Blisters were $10-15 impulse buys. Now, half the codes are Direct Only. How many impulse buys does that get you? GW fails because it is willfully ignorant of how things work outside of the UK retail bubble. But keep trying to mash that square peg in that round hole, G-Dub...
Yet many of the posts above are from a US perspective making absolute claims which when looked at can only be from a local/regional perspective.
RatBot wrote: Basically I think it's because they want to maximize profit. How do they do that? They cut out the middle man. Now, instead of the retailer getting a cut, GW gets it all. Thus they seek to maximize profit it a way that on paper makes sense, but in reality is completely moronic.
They honestly believe that if something isn't available at a retailer, you'll buy it from them directly. I mean, what are you gonna do? Not buy their stuff? Not play their game? If you want "x" but "x" is only available directly from GW, then you'll buy it directly from GW!
I'm not saying it works, and I'm not saying it makes sense, but it's what GW thinks.
It's similar to why they don't do Specialist Games anymore. They believe that if you buy Necromunda, that means you're not buying 40K; furthermore, if you can't buy Necromunda, you'll just say "Oh well!" and buy 40K.
This is also the company whose reps, when asked "So what you're saying is, if someone collects Space Wolves, you think they'll buy Ork Nobz just because the Ork Nobz are 'cool models'?" replied "Absolutely!"
Very interesting point of view. I wonder when/how they got so out of touch. I would call myself a casual player but from what I have read over the years it feels like a great product with poor management. But then again the game has been around and making money for a loooong time. Who am I to judge.
It is worth bearing in mind that GW have been around and making money for a long time, but not purely from 40K and Fantasy.
They built up through various stages over several decades and arguably their worst performance has been the past eight years when they have been increasingly reliant on 40K and Fantasy.
Marleymoo wrote: Don't look into the politics of it too much. You'll probably find a lot of products are "Direct Only" because the shops simply don't have the space to stock all of the products. Have a look around your local GW, any spare space on the walls, nope. They stock mostly just the best sellers, new releases and staple needs for your armies.
How many "Lucius the Eternal's" will an average GW sell in a month compared with a box of Tactical Marines. Besides if you want a "Direct only" or "Web Exclusive" model just ask the staff and they will have it ordered and delivered postage free to the shop within the week.
(lol, look at me defending GW direct only policy and I haven't been in the local shop all year. )
Again, this is a Euro-centric view. The closest GW to me is a six hour drive. There are plenty of people in the States who would need to drive even further than that. But, why would we? GW stores are shoe boxes when compared to most independent retailers. One guy running a small store that doesn't have open gaming tables and only sells one line of product? That's pretty much the recipe for a failed business here.
My local store has 17,000 square feet of gaming/retail space and his GW blisters rack was a thing to behold prior to the Finecast debacle. Blisters were $10-15 impulse buys. Now, half the codes are Direct Only. How many impulse buys does that get you? GW fails because it is willfully ignorant of how things work outside of the UK retail bubble. But keep trying to mash that square peg in that round hole, G-Dub...
Yet many of the posts above are from a US perspective making absolute claims which when looked at can only be from a local/regional perspective.
But that "US perspective" is also apropos to most of GW's markets outside of Great Britain. Large portions of Europe are 50+ miles away from the closest GW store, especially in areas like the Iberian Peninsula, Italy, and almost the entirety of Eastern and Central Europe. Australia has a few areas with several GW stores in close proximity, but then nothing anywhere else. Honestly, outside of Great Britain, pretty much nobody has a significant, nation- or region-wide coverage of GW stores. Even in countries like Germany and France (that probably have the best coverage outside of Great Britain), if you don't live in Berlin or Paris (or similar large city), there's probably not a store near you.
Marleymoo wrote: Don't look into the politics of it too much. You'll probably find a lot of products are "Direct Only" because the shops simply don't have the space to stock all of the products. Have a look around your local GW, any spare space on the walls, nope. They stock mostly just the best sellers, new releases and staple needs for your armies.
How many "Lucius the Eternal's" will an average GW sell in a month compared with a box of Tactical Marines. Besides if you want a "Direct only" or "Web Exclusive" model just ask the staff and they will have it ordered and delivered postage free to the shop within the week.
(lol, look at me defending GW direct only policy and I haven't been in the local shop all year. )
Again, this is a Euro-centric view. The closest GW to me is a six hour drive.
UK-centric. Closest GW to me is a 7.5 hour drive. Well, technically, the closest GW to me would probably be in Aberdeen with a 40 minute flight.
Devil's advocate, but is it possible that they don't stock the models that sell the least?
If I had a range of products that doesn't really sell that well, I don't see the logic in keeping them on store shelves. I would want to focus on keeping the stock low and could do that more efficiently if the distribution was centralized and predictable.
Marleymoo wrote: Don't look into the politics of it too much. You'll probably find a lot of products are "Direct Only" because the shops simply don't have the space to stock all of the products. Have a look around your local GW, any spare space on the walls, nope.
GW have been using the 'shelf space' excuse since the '90s.
It's not actually true. The GW stores I've been into over the years have all had plenty of room for more stock.
ComTrav wrote: Brick-and-mortar stores probably aren't losing sleep over having more shelf space for Space Marines, Codices, and other perennial staples, and probably aren't losing a lot of profit on (most) of the "Web exclusive" models, which would probably just gather dust.
The Space Marine range currently includes 75 web-exclusive items, including just about all of the Space Marine character models.
I think it's more to tie into their whole idea that everything is a limited collector's piece of wonder or whatever that lamebrain quote was. It gives the idea that they are boutique items that you can only get from an official shop not any old random comic shop run by some fat nerd, no you must go to Games Workshop itself to get what you need.
I'd imagine its the same reason that my store (a Toys R Us) doesn't carry the full line of Lego products. Not a lot on interest on a lot of them. We carry a ton of their products (more than any other retailer) but a lot of the kits just don't sell in any appreciable quantity, and so rather than use up shelf space on them, we'll use that space to sell products that will move, and we make them available for order instead.
You don't stock products that don't sell, or else you end up with tons of stock clogging up your inventory, and after awhile, you need to make it go away so you're not sitting on stock that'll take you years and years to move through, so you run a massive clearance sale (which ends up with you losing money) or you write it off (which also ends up with you losing money). My company just finished up going through this process, and it's a giant pain in the ass, and a money sink.
I totally get the "I want to just walk into the store and buy it" mindset, but, knowing how to run a business, that's a recipe for disaster. If we, a multi-billion dollar company, get stuck with a problem like that, imagine what it'd do to a small independent retailer. It's a problem that's more than enough to sink a business.
I have the feeling that Direct Only is even more of a dire situation than thought.
I think the problem is, GW no longer has the funds to manufacture enough models to supply flgs, their own stores, plus their web store.
By cutting everyone else out, they only have 1 inventory to worry about. It is much easier to control production to replenish one source as opposed to resupplying all the above mentioned inventories.
There's probably a lot of reasons they have so many direct only products, and none of them look good for their company in the long term.
I think the reason is that they recognise that they need to increase webstore sales. I think their webstore only accounted for about 13% of their total revenue over the last year, or something like that, which is criminally low considering how big online business is in nearly all retail sectors. The majority of product they sell online is from the discounters, which instead of competing against by offering webstore or instore deals of their own, they seek to legally squeeze as much as possible in order to limit their sales to draw people to their own webstore, which only damages their own image. Just look at the miniwargaming video on the trade terms with over 180,000 views, which is a hell of a lot for a GW related video.
GW has a real problem when it comes to independents. It must either support them fully or else try and recoup some direct profits for itself by being more ruthless. GW is a vertically integrated company, so it makes sense for it to issue vertically integrated product as that's the way they can make as much money as possible from their product. Given that the independent stores made up for about 36% of sales over the last year, only about 6% sales less than their hobby stores, this is a major problem for them. On one hand they need to increase direct profit, on the other they need independent retailers. They also wouldn't become very popular and would damage themselves massively if they ceased trade with independent retailers altogether. I feel they have created for themselves a bit of a Catch-22. Personally I would help the independents as much as possible and let them take the risk of running and maintaining a store but GW is reluctant to change its own hobby centre policy as they are still the source of greatest revenue. I feel its one-man stores will be counter-productive in the long-term because they are more akin to sales booths than hobby centres. GW places little value on its actual games which seems counter-intuitive at best.
Another reason is that many of these items may be due to be replaced or are Finecast kits awaiting to be made plastic. It doesn't make much sense to me either but it is GW we are talking about. It could be that such things sell in relatively low numbers so they see little point in distributing them around all their stores and they seem reluctant to provide them to independent retailers. Who knows? We don't really have the data necessary to give a concrete answer. All we do know is they spent around £4 million on their new webstore, how they managed to do so, I have no idea
As an aside I have noticed recently that some products on their webstore seem to be temporarily sold out for quite a while and more often than I have seen before, so it could indeed be a problem with supply or they are cutting manufacturing to a bear minimum, just look at how they underestimated the interest in Nagash.
I totally get the "I want to just walk into the store and buy it" mindset, but, knowing how to run a business, that's a recipe for disaster. If we, a multi-billion dollar company, get stuck with a problem like that, imagine what it'd do to a small independent retailer. It's a problem that's more than enough to sink a business.
Toys 'R' Us selling Legos has almost no bearing on the conversation. GW made the unilateral decision to make items Direct Only. They weren't making that decision based upon retail sales (or maybe they were, but again, based upon THEIR own flawed retail model). It was obviously a decision based upon driving business to their online store and saving on shipping costs.
I totally get the "I want to just walk into the store and buy it" mindset, but, knowing how to run a business, that's a recipe for disaster. If we, a multi-billion dollar company, get stuck with a problem like that, imagine what it'd do to a small independent retailer. It's a problem that's more than enough to sink a business.
Toys 'R' Us selling Legos has almost no bearing on the conversation. GW made the unilateral decision to make items Direct Only. They weren't making that decision based upon retail sales (or maybe they were, but again, based upon THEIR own flawed retail model). It was obviously a decision based upon driving business to their online store and saving on shipping costs.
I dunno, it seems like many items are available for the initial release and once it is assumed the bulk of the market has been satisfied, they move the items to direct only. How is that different than toys which are released in waves, and then retired in retailers? Many products don't keep a full-line or older releases everywhere, either retiring them as products or making them obtainable by direct only. In that regard I think legos and other toys are relevant.
I don't necessarily think 'direct buying only' is always going to be a bad decision for all companies and all products, but in a model where your products existence and use is niche and word of mouth I think you need to have avenues to expose your products. Privateer press is notoriously bad at keeping their products in stock for retailers which drives people to direct buy out of frustration because online orders directly get honored before distributors it seems. So while the model and motivation is different, the result is the same... sales are taken from the stores doing the legwork to spread the use of the product and sent to the company which cuts out the middleman. The difference is GW gets the blame and ill will and PP seems to shift that ill will to the FLGS who can't keep the stuff in stock and PP gets the sales directly.
Bi'ios wrote: I'd imagine its the same reason that my store (a Toys R Us) doesn't carry the full line of Lego products. Not a lot on interest on a lot of them. We carry a ton of their products (more than any other retailer) but a lot of the kits just don't sell in any appreciable quantity, and so rather than use up shelf space on them, we'll use that space to sell products that will move, and we make them available for order instead.
Space Marines are GW's biggest selling range. And yet pretty much all of the Marine characters (both generic and special characters) are direct only.
All of the Greater Daemons are direct only. Warbikers, Eldar Aspect Warriors, Plague Marines, Daemon Princes, Big Gunz, most of the big Tyranids, Phoenix Lords - (pretty much every character from every non-new-release army), and for a while there the Wave Serpent.
We're not talking obscure, slow-moving product here. These are core parts of the range that new players need... and they they can only get through GW directly.
This isn't about saving shelf space. It's about driving sales to their webstore (because unlike other webstores, who are just parasites who do nothing positive for the gaming community, the GW store is great for the hobby... because reasons!).
You don't stock products that don't sell, or else you end up with tons of stock clogging up your inventory, and after awhile, you need to make it go away so you're not sitting on stock that'll take you years and years to move through, so you run a massive clearance sale (which ends up with you losing money) or you write it off (which also ends up with you losing money).
That's one way to do it, yes.
The choice of what to stock should be up to the store, however. Retailers aren't being given the choice to stock these or not. GW has simply declared them unavailable to them.
If we, a multi-billion dollar company, get stuck with a problem like that, imagine what it'd do to a small independent retailer. It's a problem that's more than enough to sink a business.
It's a bigger problem in bigger businesses though, due to the scale of things and the need for big companies to forecast their sales so far in advance. To use your specific example, toy buyers have to predict, sometimes years in advance, what is going to sell. The strangest things can trend unexpectedly (we used to have YoYos sell like hotcakes periodically... couldn't keep them on the shelf. And then overnight, sales would just stop, and you would sit there with racks full of unsold YoYos for the next two years...) while stuff that looks like it should be a surefire winner just doesn't. And decisions as to what to stock and what to skip are made at head office, rather than by the people who actually have to try to sell the product...
The retailer with his single store has a somewhat easier time of it, particularly if he's really familiar with his customer base. Just look at any of Mikhaila's recent-ish rants GW trying to tell him what he should and shouldn't have in his store for a prime example of this in action... Having GW dictate that core product just isn't available is not good for anyone's business.
It all comes down to profit margin and preventing discounts. If it costs GW $10 to produce a kit, they sell it for $50, that's $40 profit. If they sell it to FLGS for $30, that's only $20 profit. Their revenue is taking a hit because more people would buy the products if they were available but profit is typically more important than revenue to share holders. If their revenue drops 10% but profit margins are up they consider it a win. When revenue starts dropping to the point where a company's business model looks destined to fail, the shareholders cash out and put their money in something else. Remember, this company is being run by accountants who couldn't care less about the hobby and lately it seems like long term viability has taken a back seat to short term profits.
Exclusives are to maximize profit, that's it. Look at the people that run GW, the decisions they make and ask yourself; would have exclusives for a concern over shelf space/supply demands, or because they want juicy price minus cost. This is the company that cut jobs TO KEEP A DECENT PROFIT MARGIN.
There's no thought for growth and development obviously. FLGS bring in new players and grow the game, because there isn't a GW in every city. But how much longer before the entire range is exclusive.
They couldn't care less about supply demands, GW are the only people who make GW products, so at a store or a FLGS it doesn't matter. But what does matter is the profit on a store versus FLGS.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lol, I just thought of something. If you bought bonds from GW, when they came to term they'd try and pay you in models, but at full retail price not cost.
In my mind that's the kind of company they are, they seem to only be getting worse.
I totally get the "I want to just walk into the store and buy it" mindset, but, knowing how to run a business, that's a recipe for disaster. If we, a multi-billion dollar company, get stuck with a problem like that, imagine what it'd do to a small independent retailer. It's a problem that's more than enough to sink a business.
Toys 'R' Us selling Legos has almost no bearing on the conversation. GW made the unilateral decision to make items Direct Only. They weren't making that decision based upon retail sales (or maybe they were, but again, based upon THEIR own flawed retail model). It was obviously a decision based upon driving business to their online store and saving on shipping costs.
I dunno, it seems like many items are available for the initial release and once it is assumed the bulk of the market has been satisfied, they move the items to direct only. How is that different than toys which are released in waves, and then retired in retailers? Many products don't keep a full-line or older releases everywhere, either retiring them as products or making them obtainable by direct only. In that regard I think legos and other toys are relevant.
I don't necessarily think 'direct buying only' is always going to be a bad decision for all companies and all products, but in a model where your products existence and use is niche and word of mouth I think you need to have avenues to expose your products. Privateer press is notoriously bad at keeping their products in stock for retailers which drives people to direct buy out of frustration because online orders directly get honored before distributors it seems. So while the model and motivation is different, the result is the same... sales are taken from the stores doing the legwork to spread the use of the product and sent to the company which cuts out the middleman. The difference is GW gets the blame and ill will and PP seems to shift that ill will to the FLGS who can't keep the stuff in stock and PP gets the sales directly.
Because - carrying on the LEGO analogy...
Products through GW are not like the LEGO castle, or some other LEGO kit - they are the individual blocks in those kits. You don't normally buy a Codex on its own - you buy it in conjunction with paints, infantry, vehicles and characters.
What GW has done would be like if LEGO decided to say - you will no longer be able to get bricks larger than 2x2 in any kit. For those - you have to buy them from us online. Sure, you might be able to still build a castle using the parts that come in the LEGO kit, but not much of one.
In the same way, almost every single army can be built - in a shoddy manner using products that GW sells through distribution...but the good stuff, the stuff that you actually want in your armies is direct only. The instructions to build a lot of those armies are direct only (in the form of Codices and digital crap). Many very important, core items are direct only - for almost every army they support. So, if you want to play - you have to buy from GW.
This puts retailers in a significantly different position from how Toys'R'Us is dealing with LEGO. As opposed to selling complete items - the game store sells a basic Codex...lets say the Eldar Codex. Now, they start to figure out their list and go to the store to start buying it.
Spoiler:
Do you have the Avatar? Sorry, that is direct only.
OK, how about Warlocks - I'll need several of those? Nope, those are direct only too.
OK, which Farseers do you have? Just the plastic one there.
Well, I guess that will do for now - what about my Elites, you have Harlequins right? No, sorry - they are all direct only.
Really, well then you have to have Aspect Warriors - can I get two boxes of Fire Dragons? No, those are direct as well.
What Elite unit do you have? Wraithguard.
OK then, I guess I'll need a box of Rangers, Dire Avengers and Jetbikes. We have the Dire Avengers and Jetbikes - but the Rangers are direct only.
I guess that will do, so, lets add one squadron of Vypers... Sorry, direct only - I can sell you 3 of them for $15 more though.
...umm, OK, and I guess one of those Jets. ...
Now, on to the big guns - one war walker squadron...wait, let me guess, direct only or I can pay $15 more? Yep.
I guess I'll take a Wraithlord then and one of the Tank kits. That it?
Nah, the rest I'll just order from GW I guess.
Granted - it has been years since I have looked at building a list for 40K...but it looks to me that a lot of important items are not available through the FLGS anymore. Many of those which are (squadrons and other combos) are at a distinct disadvantage over direct only - especially when the consumer has to go to the GW site anyway...and will be looking for ways to get their order up to the minimum amount for free shipping while they are there.
GW have been using the 'shelf space' excuse since the '90s.
It's not actually true. The GW stores I've been into over the years have all had plenty of room for more stock.
Exactly. They may now have pretty small stores, but plenty of other shops work with small stores. There's also no need for everything to be on display at once - no reason you can't keep boxes on a higher shelf or a tray in a store room, to be fetched on demand by the staff member. You could easily fit at least one of each SKU into trays under the till/register, with the big boxes needing the staffer to use a step to get. Both methods are already used by many other shops.
The problem has been touched on here already - manufacturing capacity. They need to produce a lot of stock to keep it in every GW/FLGS, but if it's direct only they don't. Particularly when it comes to Finecast, that's a big benefit.
It's totally stupid, but I can see why they do it.
As to the Lego/Toys R' Us thing - Toys R' Us get to choose what they stock based on what sells, this is like LEGO saying that 30% of the LEGO kits are direct only, because reasons, and Toys R' Us can do nothing about it even if they know it'd sell like hotcakes. It's not fringe products either; it's essential stuff for many armies.
However, it is clear that in many cases the range of products offered to Independents is not full enough to allow customers to buy complete workable forces. Other toys such as Lego do not require other purchases to be truly usable so wargaming is different.
Irrespective of the manufacturing issue, enough Independents want to stock a fuller range and are being denied and see buyers being pushed towards GW direct.
And as a business owner, I want to decide what we do and don't stock, I do not want some artificial and questionable limitation placed upon my business.
Personally, I think this is just more evidence that GW opening it's own network of stores will prove to be their demise.
Their own store network set them up as competitors with the independent retailers. In the 10+ years since the GW store network opened up, GW's retail practices have become more hostile to the independent retailer, all with the intent to force more sales to come directly from GW. This is partly because of the incredible expense of maintaining that retail network. IMO, GW has gotten to a point that their margins are low enough that they need the vast majority of their sales to be direct (either through their network or their website) at full retail cost for them to maintain the profitability they want.
I could go more into my reasons for believing this; I've thought about it a lot over the last several years. I just don't feel like posting a wall of text.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Herzlos wrote: The problem has been touched on here already - manufacturing capacity. They need to produce a lot of stock to keep it in every GW/FLGS, but if it's direct only they don't. Particularly when it comes to Finecast, that's a big benefit.
I actually disagree with this. Their manufacturing capacity hasn't significantly changed since before they started the direct only program.
If they're selling 100,000 units to customers in a given time frame, it doesn't matter if the customers are purchasing from GW direct or anywhere else, as far as their production capacity is concerned. In either case, they have to produce 100,000 units. Shipping costs are irrelevant because the retailer or distributor pays for those shipping costs, typically (though GW does have to pay to ship product to their own stores). Of course, stocking retailers will result in a small number of units produced that sit on a shelf and are not sold in that given time frame, but that really should be only a very small percentage of the overall number of units produced.
I repeat that my opinion is that this drive to force buyers to purchase from the GW web store is solely motivated by maximizing profitability. GW makes more money from selling the product at full retail directly to customers than they do selling that same product at the retailer discount to brick-and-mortar stores. It's still cheaper to sell direct that to stock their own GW stores, too, because this is a situation where GW would actually have to pay for the distribution, while an independent retailer would have to pay the shipping themselves (or at least a portion of it).
Saldiven wrote: Personally, I think this is just more evidence that GW opening it's own network of stores will prove to be their demise.
Their own store network set them up as competitors with the independent retailers. In the 10+ years since the GW store network opened up, GW's retail practices have become more hostile to the independent retailer, all with the intent to force more sales to come directly from GW. This is partly because of the incredible expense of maintaining that retail network. IMO, GW has gotten to a point that their margins are low enough that they need the vast majority of their sales to be direct (either through their network or their website) at full retail cost for them to maintain the profitability they want.
I could go more into my reasons for believing this; I've thought about it a lot over the last several years. I just don't feel like posting a wall of text.
There's some good points here that I thought I would elaborate on, specifically that GW's approach in their early days (in the UK and to a much lesser extent in the US/Europe) was to establish a high street presence and drive out the LGS so that GW was the only shop on the high street that offered gaming goods. This worked fine in the early days when the only way to get miniatures was either physically in a store or via lengthy mail order for the extremely patient (and this was back in the day when you had to know that said mail order company existed, had to have a credit card to order from them, had to phone or post orders through, had to wait 28 days for delivery etc). More recently, with the advent of the internet and online shopping, a high street prescense isn't needed and in GW's case, is actually almost detrimental - it has oft been said that their retail arm is a millstone that costs too much money for too little benefit but I see it as further evidence of just how little GW learn, how little they have adapted and how badly they have misjudged the internet era. Their strategy now is to continue to ignore the internet whilst somehow trying to force people into ignoring internet retailers in favour of their bricks and mortar stores. They still (up till recently anyway) seem to be intent on opening as many stores as they can when really, they should be embracing the 'Amazon' generation who expect to be able to shop for discounted goods 24/7 and that are delivered promptly - this is what the modern consumer expects. Instead, they have ended up with a crappy webstore (that hilariously cost them a fortune - I bet the Oracle professional services team were laughing all the way to the bank with that one) and some sort of dangerously misguided policy that makes them think that driving discounters out of business will somehow bring customers back to their fold. Madness.
I can see why they do a direct only sales really. If GW was to stock all of there items, it would require rows of units and bays to sell there product, which would easily leave no room what so ever for the painting stations. While these arent used as much as they were used to (I am presuming here so don't quote me for truth) they surely bring in more people and see more usage than a long row of bays selling products that do not shift what so ever?
tomball0706 wrote: I can see why they do a direct only sales really. If GW was to stock all of there items, it would require rows of units and bays to sell there product, which would easily leave no room what so ever for the painting stations. While these arent used as much as they were used to (I am presuming here so don't quote me for truth) they surely bring in more people and see more usage than a long row of bays selling products that do not shift what so ever?
You guys really need to get into your heads that the UK isn't the rest of the world. Nowhere else in the world has the concentration of GW stores that you guys have (thankfully), and a LGS doesn't have the same space limitations that GW stores apparently have.
Also, LGS owners should be the ones to decide what they wan't to stock or not, not GW. The fact that this isn't so, is because the only goal of this policy is to try and make more people buy directly from GW, keeping any third party sellers and their pesky percentages from "leaching" from GW...
PhantomViper wrote: Also, LGS owners should be the ones to decide what they wan't to stock or not, not GW.
This is basically what I think. GW are screwing themselves hardcore by not letting FLGS's choose what they want to stock. Independent retailers around this area are doing everything they can to move sales away from GW stuff and on to other brands, moving their stock to direct only sure doesn't help that.
Stuff that many other businesses would have dropped long ago, but because manufacturing is in house and relatively quick and cheap they keep around... Also because when they eliminate stuff gamers end up moaning (they'll never hear the end of the squats will controversy)
An attempt to 'help' retailers by reducing the amount of SKUs to stock (and retailers do moan about too many SKUs in a range which is why so many manufacturers are moving from single mini blisters to box sets), this is not handled very well as many retailers would like to decide on their own what to stock
Cut down on 'low selling' stock in their own stores (if they opened stuff up to independents they'd have to have it in their own stores) lets them keep minimal stock at HQ and manufacture on time
To drive traffic to their website, they don't do discounts in the way many online stores do so they need an 'edge' and direct only provides it. Want a direct only mini and you may well add in other stuff to hit cheaper postage, or just for convenience sake
to teach those naught independents a lesson, compete with GW and you're going down
That's it plain and simple. Lots of people here have good points and it all boils down to (I'm my opinion) money and the amount of profit games workshop makes from direct only.
It is incredibly frustrating to me that they have done this tho because I don't have a gw near me...(4 hours away?) So if I want that fine cast queek headtaker for my skaven force its $21, alright that's fine but now I have to pay $20 postage on it unless I spend $80+ and I don't want to do that when I only want 1 or 2 other models.
The discount from retailers is nice but most direct only stuff (at least in fantasy) are models that are either fine cast or old metal models so I wouldn't get the discount from fine cast (or at least not the same)
Its just to bad that you can't order stuff from independent retailers.
I dont know why but it has cost them much of our free cash. Other retailers offer a slight discount that makes the crunch on the wallet and the dirty feeling slightly less.
I've noticed a trend-most of the posters defending GW in this thread have 200 or less posts. You guys haven't had your eyes opened yet. You've started noticing there are sites where you can discuss Warhammer. Once you see there are other companies out there who do most things better than GW, you'll start singing a different tune. Baby steps.
chiefbigredman wrote: That's it plain and simple. Lots of people here have good points and it all boils down to (I'm my opinion) money and the amount of profit games workshop makes from direct only.
I don't think anyone was arguing that it's done because of money... they were arguing whether it's actually a good idea. There's not much use making more money per unit if you lose so many sales that you can't make up the gap.
timetowaste85 wrote: I've noticed a trend-most of the posters defending GW in this thread have 200 or less posts. You guys haven't had your eyes opened yet. You've started noticing there are sites where you can discuss Warhammer. Once you see there are other companies out there who do most things better than GW, you'll start singing a different tune. Baby steps.
What companies are those? You can't be talking about PP or Mantic because they both make awful minis, have lots of company problems and PP's models are just as expensive if not more than GWs...
GW and PP are two sides of the same coin, do the exact same stuff and yet people see a difference because they feel the bad man touched them down there.
Well, puppies and handjobs from a nice person doesn't make a bad PVC model with crap detail good or usable, or a product always out of stock 'in stock' or a 50$ model for a single 40mm creature cost less...
The only thing PP has GW beat on is rules... Apparently you can charge the exact same prices, have all sorts of screw jobs for retailer fulfillment and make crap products as long as your game rules are balanced. Everything else they are exactly the same as GW in every way.
timetowaste85 wrote: I've noticed a trend-most of the posters defending GW in this thread have 200 or less posts. You guys haven't had your eyes opened yet. You've started noticing there are sites where you can discuss Warhammer. Once you see there are other companies out there who do most things better than GW, you'll start singing a different tune. Baby steps.
What companies are those? You can't be talking about PP or Mantic because they both make awful minis, have lots of company problems and PP's models are just as expensive if not more than GWs...
GW and PP are two sides of the same coin, do the exact same stuff and yet people see a difference because they feel the bad man touched them down there.
"awful minis" is your personal opinion and pretty laughable one when GW as stuff like finecrap, the teletubby marines and the Pumbagore...
And what are those "company problems" that Mantig and PP have, do tell?
Well, puppies and handjobs from a nice person doesn't make a bad PVC model with crap detail good or usable, or a product always out of stock 'in stock' or a 50$ model for a single 40mm creature cost less...
The only thing PP has GW beat on is rules... Apparently you can charge the exact same prices, have all sorts of screw jobs for retailer fulfillment and make crap products as long as your game rules are balanced. Everything else they are exactly the same as GW in every way.
I was answering the OP not addressing the PP/GW comparison. I don't like Mantic's crappy models or Pauldronhammer either.
I've gone to Infinity and Firestorm Armada. Both CB and Spartan seem to have their gak together and actually want customers.
Well, puppies and handjobs from a nice person doesn't make a bad PVC model with crap detail good or usable
Finecrap has infinitely less quality than any miniature ever made by PP or Mantic in PVC. Also please provide fotos of those models that have crap detail, please.
The only thing PP has GW beat on is rules... Apparently you can charge the exact same prices, have all sorts of screw jobs for retailer fulfillment and make crap products as long as your game rules are balanced. Everything else they are exactly the same as GW in every way.
Care to provide any type of evidence for all these claims that you are throwing around? Or is this just more of your typical white knight nonsense?
timetowaste85 wrote: I've noticed a trend-most of the posters defending GW in this thread have 200 or less posts. You guys haven't had your eyes opened yet. You've started noticing there are sites where you can discuss Warhammer. Once you see there are other companies out there who do most things better than GW, you'll start singing a different tune. Baby steps.
What companies are those? You can't be talking about PP or Mantic because they both make awful minis, have lots of company problems and PP's models are just as expensive if not more than GWs...
GW and PP are two sides of the same coin, do the exact same stuff and yet people see a difference because they feel the bad man touched them down there.
"awful minis" is your personal opinion and pretty laughable one when GW as stuff like finecrap, the teletubby marines and the Pumbagore...
And what are those "company problems" that Mantig and PP have, do tell?
Mantic has horrible customer service issues and a revolving door kickstarter model which leaves every new backer with a 'I will never back Mantic KS again' feelings. They also undercut FLGS by the KS model making mantic models trash for stores to sell. often people can get mantic KS models on clearance before the kickstarter even fulfills, many times for cheaper than the KS.
PP cannot keep products in stock for retailers so often stores are bare and there are frequent delays which make people go to internet or direct buy to get things faster. Which results in the exact same behavior of sucking sales from the FLGS. I have never seen a model line which has more people unable to find a single part of the line 'acceptable' from an aesthetic point of view by a large number of people. The lack of conversions and strict tourney rules are also a turn-off. Their prices are exactly the same as GW in every capacity. For people who collect and paint models, who are a large portion of the consumer market, telling them 'the game needs less models to play' doesn't make a 50$ pile of metal cost less.
And while finecast sucks, GW is making a good effort to not use that anymore. PP and Mantic seem to be addicted to PVC and continue to make crap PVC models which are unacceptable to many mini collectors as a material.
The difference is that only GW actively goes against the independents. PP and Mantic (with their limited support right now) do not. PP embraces the independents, GW tried to kill them.
Mantic has horrible customer service issues and a revolving door kickstarter model which leaves every new backer with a 'I will never back Mantic KS again' feelings. They also undercut FLGS by the KS model making mantic models trash for stores to sell. often people can get mantic KS models on clearance before the kickstarter even fulfills, many times for cheaper than the KS.
I'm not aware of Mantic business model so I won't comment on the veracity or not of this.
PP cannot keep products in stock for retailers so often stores are bare and there are frequent delays which make people go to internet or direct buy to get things faster. Which results in the exact same behavior of sucking sales from the FLGS.
Proof? This was true during a period more than 2 years ago when a spike in demand far outstripped PP's production capacity, but all these problems have since been solved.
I have never seen a model line which has more people unable to find a single part of the line 'acceptable' from an aesthetic point of view by a large number of people.
How many are these "large number of people"? Where are they? Where did you get your numbers?
For every single example of an unaesthetic model from PP, I'll show you another from GW... Especially those made in the past 4 years, damn the newer GW models are ugly as sin!
The lack of conversions and strict tourney rules are also a turn-off.
There are plenty of examples of conversions using PP miniatures, in fact NQ has conversion articles practically every issue and I'm not talking about kit bashing articles like some other magazines have...
Also the strict conversion rules for tournaments are only really enforced in PP official tournaments, of which there are 2 every year, every other tournament is at the TO's discretion and I've never heard of anyone having their conversion turned away because of those rules.
Their prices are exactly the same as GW in every capacity. For people who collect and paint models, who are a large portion of the consumer market, telling them 'the game needs less models to play' doesn't make a 50$ pile of metal cost less.
How do you know that a large portion of the consumer market only collect and paint models? How large is that portion?
Also, if someone only buys models to paint and collect, then they will vastly prefer the superior quality that metal and resin models offer over plastic ones, both in detail and in dynamism of the sculpt itself.
And I find it hilarious that you claim that PP models are just as expensive and GW ones when you are comparing two different materials... You do realize that metal is much more expensive than plastic, right?
And while finecast sucks, GW is making a good effort to not use that anymore. PP and Mantic seem to be addicted to PVC and continue to make crap PVC models which are unacceptable to many mini collectors as a material.
No they aren't making any effort to not use it, they just removed the "Failcrap" tag from it because the brand had become THAT toxic, and just kept using it the same material anyway. Also PP continuously keeps improving their plastic kits and most of the newest ones have shown a considerable improvement in the placement and amount of mold lines, which is what the "unacceptable" people always seem to point to.
If you have other examples of why PP PVC models are "unacceptable" to many mini collectors, please post pictures of all these flaws because there are plenty of pictures of Failcraps flaws and they go far, far beyond mold line placement.
I haven't played much GW in years (3 editions of 40K ago now) so I haven't been keeping up with what's gone to direct only before noticing this thread.
Obviously maximizing profits is likely the main factor in GW taking so many models and kits to direct only but does anyone else think it might also be a result of trying to emulate the competition? When I look at where I've been buying models recently it's pimarily kickstarter (Mierce, Mercs, Red Box Games) and direct from webstores of smaller companies(Victoria Miniatures, RBG) and it strikes me that GW has to have noticed the trend within the hobby. There's a lot of companies out there that stay in business making minis without needing a network of physical stores. Perhaps, a factor in expanding direct only is GW testing out the reaction from their customers and their sales to see if they could take a majority of their products to direct only. GW seems to be a bit hypocritical lately, lamenting the cost of their stores while opening more of them so I don't know if they'd really do away with their stores or not.
chiefbigredman wrote: That's it plain and simple. Lots of people here have good points and it all boils down to (I'm my opinion) money and the amount of profit games workshop makes from direct only.
I don't think anyone was arguing that it's done because of money... they were arguing whether it's actually a good idea. There's not much use making more money per unit if you lose so many sales that you can't make up the gap.
Ah okay, well I see how gw thinks its a good idea to go direct only to make themselves more money. The problem is for us is that we don't really know the exact numbers that gw has on sales, profits, cost etc etc to figure out exactly why they chose direct only.
I think they must know something that we don't...because it seems so obvious to us who buy the products that direct only is a bad business model but gw must have information on their buisness that we can't access as the general public.
chiefbigredman wrote: That's it plain and simple. Lots of people here have good points and it all boils down to (I'm my opinion) money and the amount of profit games workshop makes from direct only.
I don't think anyone was arguing that it's done because of money... they were arguing whether it's actually a good idea. There's not much use making more money per unit if you lose so many sales that you can't make up the gap.
Ah okay, well I see how gw thinks its a good idea to go direct only to make themselves more money. The problem is for us is that we don't really know the exact numbers that gw has on sales, profits, cost etc etc to figure out exactly why they chose direct only.
I think they must know something that we don't...because it seems so obvious to us who buy the products that direct only is a bad business model but gw must have information on their buisness that we can't access as the general public.
The discussion on whether GW knows best is certainly a long one and I think you'll find many people, many of those who are better educated in business than me, will say that they don't.
There's obviously no question whether or not you get more revenue per sale selling direct to customers instead of selling to 3rd parties. Obviously you do. The question is whether you lose enough sales to compensate (or miraculously gain sales despite cutting off avenues for people to buy product).
FLGS's are still important to GW and I think GW are pushing them too far.
It's not enough to say "well GW have the data so they must know what they're doing". Because we also know GW don't do market research, they hire based on personality rather than skills and qualifications and they make stupid comments (like their customers are price insensitive even though that's obviously not true of all customers, only a subset of them).
chiefbigredman wrote: That's it plain and simple. Lots of people here have good points and it all boils down to (I'm my opinion) money and the amount of profit games workshop makes from direct only.
I don't think anyone was arguing that it's done because of money... they were arguing whether it's actually a good idea. There's not much use making more money per unit if you lose so many sales that you can't make up the gap.
Ah okay, well I see how gw thinks its a good idea to go direct only to make themselves more money. The problem is for us is that we don't really know the exact numbers that gw has on sales, profits, cost etc etc to figure out exactly why they chose direct only.
I think they must know something that we don't...because it seems so obvious to us who buy the products that direct only is a bad business model but gw must have information on their buisness that we can't access as the general public.
I just wanted to address the bold part.
About 8 years ago, I worked for Citigroup as a lower-mid level manager. People at my level and our supervisor often wondered about some of the patently stupid policies that came down from headquarters about how we were supposed to be doing business. On the surface of things, a lot of those directives just didn't make sense and seemed completely unsustainable in the long term.
The relevance to your comment is that is exactly what we'd tell each other about why those decisions were being made. We assumed that the people higher up had a greater degree of information than we had that would justify those decisions and make them sensible. Obviously, as indicated by the economic slow down and Citigroups participation in that, we now know that they were, in fact, just really bad decisions.
Sometimes, those people making the decisions are just making bad decisions. They don't necessarily have any better information that makes their decisions make sense. They just as likely are simply making poor decisions based on whatever information they have. Those decisions make sense to them, but that doesn't mean that they will turn out to be correct in the long term.
And while finecast sucks, GW is making a good effort to not use that anymore. PP and Mantic seem to be addicted to PVC and continue to make crap PVC models which are unacceptable to many mini collectors as a material.
No they aren't making any effort to not use it, they just removed the "Failcrap" tag from it because the brand had become THAT toxic, and just kept using it the same material anyway. Also PP continuously keeps improving their plastic kits and most of the newest ones have shown a considerable improvement in the placement and amount of mold lines, which is what the "unacceptable" people always seem to point to.
If you have other examples of why PP PVC models are "unacceptable" to many mini collectors, please post pictures of all these flaws because there are plenty of pictures of Failcraps flaws and they go far, far beyond mold line placement.
To keep this on topic, there's a big difference between
-"We can't provide product X to retailers because we literally cannot produce it fast enough due to a very sudden and completely unexpected surge in popularity, but once we're able to, it'll be no problem." (two years later) "Hey, see? It's all regularly available in retail stores!"
and
-"We refuse to allow retailers to stock product X because we want people to buy it directly from us because we view retailers as a necessary evil."
If I was a FLGS owner/manager, I'd be pretty annoyed at both situations, but I'd at least take some tiny solace in the fact that in the first situation, the company isn't actively trying to screw me over.
RatBot wrote: To keep this on topic, there's a big difference between
-"We can't provide product X to retailers because we literally cannot produce it fast enough, but once we're able to, it'll be no problem." (two years later) "Hey, see? It's all available in retail stores!"
and
-"We refuse to allow retailers to stock product X because we want people to buy it directly from us because we view retailers as a necessary evil."
But, but, but. PP and GW are the same! They're both miniature companies, see? Purple monkey dishwasher!
The most egregious example of PP's "bad" plastics were the initial CoC battleboxes, which PP were aware of and the later castings are a lot better.
Is that supposed to be a good example? That doesn't look very good to me. Soft detail, mold lines. At least the 'sprue tear divots seem to be off detail and on the peg part of the model. And the material is still PVC. And only 2$ cheaper than the metal version? Give me metal.
The most egregious example of PP's "bad" plastics were the initial CoC battleboxes, which PP were aware of and the later castings are a lot better.
Is that supposed to be a good example? That doesn't look very good to me. Soft detail, mold lines. At least the 'sprue tear divots seem to be off detail and on the peg part of the model. And the material is still PVC. And only 2$ cheaper than the metal version? Give me metal.
Mold lines are part of the process. This really should not need explaining to you.
And soft detail? Are you intentionally taking the piss? I don't even know how to answer that one...
The most egregious example of PP's "bad" plastics were the initial CoC battleboxes, which PP were aware of and the later castings are a lot better.
Is that supposed to be a good example? That doesn't look very good to me. Soft detail, mold lines. At least the 'sprue tear divots seem to be off detail and on the peg part of the model. And the material is still PVC. And only 2$ cheaper than the metal version? Give me metal.
Mold lines are part of the process. This really should not need explaining to you.
And soft detail? Are you intentionally taking the piss? I don't even know how to answer that one...
Metal and HIPS seems to have nearly nowhere close to the issues with Mold lines... And I have seen other PVC manufacturers who have no issues with mold lines. Mold lines seem to be related to poor mold design and poor QC/machine functionality by how the machines are run.I feel those mold lines ont hat first model are borderline unacceptable but in general a huge pain in the ass which i don't have to deal with to that extent with other materials and other companies... IE: 2$ more for metal without anywhere close to that level of detail damage and cleanup is worth every penny.
PVC is gak. Finecast is gak. But you can potentially eventually get a decent version of both if you are willing to do cleanup, resculpt damage and play the exchange game with the manufacturer. My money goes to metals and HIPS. If they began designing sculpts to maximize PVC and handled the SC and mold design to fix the issues, maybe it would be better. Sorry. It makes the materials from those companies who lack the track record to handle production a non-starter to me. And every link shows how much better metal is in comparison and I would buy metal in every situation. Even the comments of the model reveals show skepticism and fright over mold lines being an issue.
"Look, the tusks come attached on this guy. And hey, the face is almost completely mold line free. More like this please!" - Shows that they want more well-designed mold-line free parts, which is not the norm if it is pointed out.
"Each fist comes individually. This is where you'll find the worst mold lines in the kit." - These fists look awful, and they are pretty bad.
There are acknowledged and documented issues in mold design, material and variable quality.
And while some of those other links show 'better' it shows how it is a crap shoot with those companies. Don't that somehow PVC is different and that it isn't a cheap solution to handle the transition from metal to funding new sculpts which work with HIPS.
The topic of this thread is why GW has moved items to direct-only. Some business comparisons to other companies may be on-topic, but this in-depth comparison of materials is certainly not.
We have lots of threads to discuss PVC versus Polystyrene versus Metal, but this isn't one of them! So, back on topic please... thanks.
sirlotsofpain wrote: I was just trying to get at the economics of the set up. I don't see how it can ever work. I was just wondering if anyone had any idea what GW may be thinking economically.
As a store, I'm confused as hell. All the stores I talk to feel the same.
-Having special characters helps sell an army. Kharn + 2 berzerker boxes is a classic example. But we have no special characters.
-Spending time with a new player showing them the game and helping them with an army list is worthless if you can't sell them anything. Bretonnians? Just the Battleforce. Empire? No cav, steamtank, engineers/pistoliers, cannon, hellblaster. Dwarfs? No warmachines or missle troops, or slayers. List goes on and on. WFT is stupidly gutted to the point it's hard to sell someone an army.
-Limited and allocated product. Codices we don't have access to. It all loses us sales.
My sales rep asked me why I thought my sales were down 60% from 5 years ago. I pointed out I had 60% less stock on my shelves, and wasn't going to beat my head against a wall trying to sell WFB or LOTR when most of the models were gone.
sirlotsofpain wrote: I was just trying to get at the economics of the set up. I don't see how it can ever work. I was just wondering if anyone had any idea what GW may be thinking economically.
As a store, I'm confused as hell. All the stores I talk to feel the same.
-Having special characters helps sell an army. Kharn + 2 berzerker boxes is a classic example. But we have no special characters.
-Spending time with a new player showing them the game and helping them with an army list is worthless if you can't sell them anything. Bretonnians? Just the Battleforce. Empire? No cav, steamtank, engineers/pistoliers, cannon, hellblaster. Dwarfs? No warmachines or missle troops, or slayers. List goes on and on. WFT is stupidly gutted to the point it's hard to sell someone an army.
-Limited and allocated product. Codices we don't have access to. It all loses us sales.
My sales rep asked me why I thought my sales were down 60% from 5 years ago. I pointed out I had 60% less stock on my shelves, and wasn't going to beat my head against a wall trying to sell WFB or LOTR when most of the models were gone.
I'm sure it varies from location to location, but this has been my experience as a customer chatting to the owners of the few FLGS's around.
Even when they couldn't carry a full stock because of space constraints, having a selection of character models was helpful to initially selling an army and then being able to order anything they wanted meant when the customer returned they could order in specifically the rest of the army that they wanted all from the one place and the store was able to grow the customer AND make money off the customer. The most telling evidence to me is how GW stock has fallen to the back aisles of my FLGS's over the years. You literally have to walk past Flames of War, Infinity and Warmahordes to get to the GW stuff now, and right next to the codices/army books if you cast your eye a bit further you see X-wing and a range of FFG games. These are the same stores that when I started used to have GW posters up all over the place and had all the GW stock prominently displayed.
Mostly curiosity, and trying to understand the situation.
The reps in the US office are decent guys stuck in a tough spot. They don't get any information either. They have to deal with angry stores. They have to help those stores sell more GW, and try to get orders out of them. They keep trying to come up with events or ways to help out the stores they deal with. Some of them try pretty hard to understand how the changes GW has imposed are hurting business.
All this despite the fact that the biggest problems come from GW itself.
We used to have huge event days when a new army came out, showcasing that army, and showing off new models we had hurried to pain. Now we don't even know what's coming out 2 weeks before, and not supposed to talk about it until 1 week prior. Effectively killing any launch event, and making it nearly impossible to get pre-orders and judge how much to initially order.
The sad thing is, even if a sales rep disagrees with GW policy, they can't express that in so many words. They have to toe the company line.
The Direct Only approach to me is a double whammy for customers: Even if the customer has managed to convince themselves to look past the high price... GW has helpfully made their product inconvenient to buy. Its telling that GW would rather have 100% of 0 sales instead of 60-70% of 1 sale. Granted... with rounding error - that's pretty much the same right?
i thought the goal of sales is to move product. By not selling this models to games stores your shooting your self in the foot. If GW had any sense they would sell these models to independent stores and let them take the risk of selling the product. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush
Chute82 wrote: i thought the goal of sales is to move product. By not selling this models to games stores your shooting your self in the foot. If GW had any sense they would sell these models to independent stores and let them take the risk of selling the product. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush
Well, sure, but GW sees independents more as competition for their stores and webstore than as retail outlets that can provide their goods to customers.
sirlotsofpain wrote: I was just trying to get at the economics of the set up. I don't see how it can ever work. I was just wondering if anyone had any idea what GW may be thinking economically.
As a store, I'm confused as hell. All the stores I talk to feel the same.
-Having special characters helps sell an army. Kharn + 2 berzerker boxes is a classic example. But we have no special characters.
-Spending time with a new player showing them the game and helping them with an army list is worthless if you can't sell them anything. Bretonnians? Just the Battleforce. Empire? No cav, steamtank, engineers/pistoliers, cannon, hellblaster. Dwarfs? No warmachines or missle troops, or slayers. List goes on and on. WFT is stupidly gutted to the point it's hard to sell someone an army.
-Limited and allocated product. Codices we don't have access to. It all loses us sales.
My sales rep asked me why I thought my sales were down 60% from 5 years ago. I pointed out I had 60% less stock on my shelves, and wasn't going to beat my head against a wall trying to sell WFB or LOTR when most of the models were gone.
I thought that was the point. Less sales for you, more sales for GW. This way once you are on the GW website to buy that special character what else are you going to buy? The way I see it, is more sales for GW less sales for you, therefore GW gets the bigger slice of the pie.
This is another thing that looks like video games. Before the PS4 and Xbox One came out rumour was you couldn't buy games anymore at EB or video gaming stores anymore. If you wanted to buy a video game you had to buy it on PS4 or Xbox One site. Looks like GW wants to do that as well. This way if most people are buying on the web site then they could close down all their stores or most of them. Hence more profit for GW.
Davor wrote: I thought that was the point. Less sales for you, more sales for GW. This way once you are on the GW website to buy that special character what else are you going to buy? The way I see it, is more sales for GW less sales for you, therefore GW gets the bigger slice of the pie.
Which is a great plan, until all of the independent stores start directing new customers to GW's competition and those customers never buy anything from GW. Getting 100% of the pie isn't very impressive when the pie is all gone. Even if the independent stores don't get frustrated and do it out of spite, which do you think sells better: "here's an Infinity starter box, it's a complete army and we have all of their stuff in stock if you want to expand it" or "here's a space marine starter box, it's 10% of an army and if you want to finish it you'll need to buy $100 worth of rules and a bunch of models that you can only get from GW's online store"?
This way if most people are buying on the web site then they could close down all their stores or most of them.
The sheer unbelievable stupidity of that idea* is almost impossible to put into words. Closing all of their stores would be financial suicide for GW. Video game companies might be able to get away with it because people don't spend more than the bare minimum amount of time in the store, so going digital-only just means that you get free "shipping" on all of your games and never have to waste time at a store. But GW stores aren't just a place to obtain products, they're a place to use those products and recruit new customers. If GW tried to move all of their sales online they'd instantly lose most of their customers, and many of them would start buying non-GW games from independent stores because that's what they can actually play.
The truth here is that GW's stores are one of their few advantages. They're an isolated island of GW-only sales where their customers can buy stuff, build a GW-only community, and never be exposed to any non-GW products that might tempt them away from the Hobby™. That's so much better for GW than having customers going to independent stores where they might be aware that non-GW products exist.
*For GW at least. For tabletop gaming in general it would be a huge win.
Peregrine wrote: But GW stores aren't just a place to obtain products, they're a place to use those products and recruit new customers.
GW have been trying to "fix" that for years - downsizing gaming space, kicking out veterans, reducing open play, reducing opening hours, pre-booked painting lessons or intro games only, and so on.
Even they don't stock direct-only stuff, so you have to use the website anyway. And if you google "Games workshop" you'll find a page of resellers with discounts, so even that's an own-goal unless you use the order-point in store.
sirlotsofpain wrote: I was just trying to get at the economics of the set up. I don't see how it can ever work. I was just wondering if anyone had any idea what GW may be thinking economically.
As a store, I'm confused as hell. All the stores I talk to feel the same.
-Having special characters helps sell an army. Kharn + 2 berzerker boxes is a classic example. But we have no special characters.
-Spending time with a new player showing them the game and helping them with an army list is worthless if you can't sell them anything. Bretonnians? Just the Battleforce. Empire? No cav, steamtank, engineers/pistoliers, cannon, hellblaster. Dwarfs? No warmachines or missle troops, or slayers. List goes on and on. WFT is stupidly gutted to the point it's hard to sell someone an army.
-Limited and allocated product. Codices we don't have access to. It all loses us sales.
My sales rep asked me why I thought my sales were down 60% from 5 years ago. I pointed out I had 60% less stock on my shelves, and wasn't going to beat my head against a wall trying to sell WFB or LOTR when most of the models were gone.
I thought that was the point. Less sales for you, more sales for GW. This way once you are on the GW website to buy that special character what else are you going to buy? The way I see it, is more sales for GW less sales for you, therefore GW gets the bigger slice of the pie.
Unfortunately, as demonstrated by their most recent annual report, it appears to be less sales for the FLGS and less sales for GW.
Peregrine wrote: But GW stores aren't just a place to obtain products, they're a place to use those products and recruit new customers.
GW have been trying to "fix" that for years - downsizing gaming space, kicking out veterans, reducing open play, reducing opening hours, pre-booked painting lessons or intro games only, and so on.
Even they don't stock direct-only stuff, so you have to use the website anyway. And if you google "Games workshop" you'll find a page of resellers with discounts, so even that's an own-goal unless you use the order-point in store.
GW would be far better off ditching their retail chain in its entirety and re-embracing the independent retail network, at least outside of Great Britain and parts of Europe.
Herzlos wrote: GW have been trying to "fix" that for years - downsizing gaming space, kicking out veterans, reducing open play, reducing opening hours, pre-booked painting lessons or intro games only, and so on.
Yes, but that just means they're obsessively focusing on recruiting new players and cutting costs. They don't want the bitter veteran who has been playing for 10 years and has already bought everything they're going to buy, they want new players meeting other excited new players. And they want to do it at the same time as they cut everything they can possibly cut. For example, why pay for a large store when you can play an intro game in a tiny closet and the once-per-week gaming night is more than enough to give a new customer the idea that they can have this awesome community waiting for them once they buy their $1000 worth of space marines.
And remember, GW's target market is people who have never seen an independent game store. GW stores suck if you're an experienced player who knows about all of the other independent stores in the area (and you live in the US, where GW is an irrelevant minority of stores), but if they're all you've ever known you won't realize how limited they are.
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Herzlos wrote: Even they don't stock direct-only stuff, so you have to use the website anyway. And if you google "Games workshop" you'll find a page of resellers with discounts, so even that's an own-goal unless you use the order-point in store.
But they'll tell you all about that awesome order point and how buying from it helps the community. For example, the local GW store's facebook page always has a note to come in and pre-order stuff from the order point because then the order counts for the store's sales, and you always want to support your local business. And GWloves customers that are too young to have a credit card and buy stuff online.
Herzlos wrote: GW have been trying to "fix" that for years - downsizing gaming space, kicking out veterans, reducing open play, reducing opening hours, pre-booked painting lessons or intro games only, and so on.
Yes, but that just means they're obsessively focusing on recruiting new players and cutting costs. They don't want the bitter veteran who has been playing for 10 years and has already bought everything they're going to buy, they want new players meeting other excited new players. And they want to do it at the same time as they cut everything they can possibly cut. For example, why pay for a large store when you can play an intro game in a tiny closet and the once-per-week gaming night is more than enough to give a new customer the idea that they can have this awesome community waiting for them once they buy their $1000 worth of space marines.
So, judging from their recent financial performance, how well would you say this strategy is working for them?
Saldiven wrote: So, judging from their recent financial performance, how well would you say this strategy is working for them?
Terribly. I never said it was a good plan, just that it's GW's current plan and it's at least better than getting rid of their retail stores, taking GW products out of independent stores, and only selling through the GW website in a desperate effort to claim every last bit of profit margin they can.
Herzlos wrote: GW have been trying to "fix" that for years - downsizing gaming space, kicking out veterans, reducing open play, reducing opening hours, pre-booked painting lessons or intro games only, and so on.
Yes, but that just means they're obsessively focusing on recruiting new players and cutting costs. They don't want the bitter veteran who has been playing for 10 years and has already bought everything they're going to buy, they want new players meeting other excited new players.
Assuming those excited new players are still new enough to not get kicked out of the store. I'd imagine that the more eagle-eyed newbies would also register that beyond the demo tables, there's no where to actually play properly, and/or that there's no actual player presence.
Saldiven wrote: So, judging from their recent financial performance, how well would you say this strategy is working for them?
Terribly. I never said it was a good plan, just that it's GW's current plan and it's at least better than getting rid of their retail stores, taking GW products out of independent stores, and only selling through the GW website in a desperate effort to claim every last bit of profit margin they can.
Honestly, I agree with you. It really does seem like GW is trying to drive as many sales as possible through their proprietary channels. It does mean their per unit margin is higher, but it also appears that it is contributing to the decreased number of units moved.
Saldiven wrote: Honestly, I agree with you. It really does seem like GW is trying to drive as many sales as possible through their proprietary channels. It does mean their per unit margin is higher, but it also appears that it is contributing to the decreased number of units moved.
As I said on the first page:
It plays in to their current business strategy of making the most amount of money from the least amount of people.
You know... their current model with the stores seems like a big scam. You give the ILLUSION of this big hobby where you can use your $1000+ of figures, but never really offer it. It's a carrot on a stick to make people think that they need to buy all this stuff for their "collection" in the hopes of using it.
WayneTheGame wrote: You know... their current model with the stores seems like a big scam. You give the ILLUSION of this big hobby where you can use your $1000+ of figures, but never really offer it. It's a carrot on a stick to make people think that they need to buy all this stuff for their "collection" in the hopes of using it.
I will admit, luckily, my local GW isn't like that. The manager has one epic table set up that usually has 1 section for LOTR, 1 section for WHFB intro game, and 1 section where you can play your own games with the forces you bring in. There's 2 smaller tables, a 4x4 with a 40k intro game and a 6x4 (I think) where you can play whatever you want. There's usually a lot of terrain set up on the tables that aren't being used for intro games, but he's usually fine with you moving it around to play a game.
Maybe it's just because the store is huge, even with those tables there's plenty of space in the store, it's no biggy to have people playing or not playing and most customers aren't too negative.
It's the only place I bother to play as the FLGS doesn't have many (if any) dedicated 40k/WHFB nights anymore.
Saldiven wrote: Honestly, I agree with you. It really does seem like GW is trying to drive as many sales as possible through their proprietary channels. It does mean their per unit margin is higher, but it also appears that it is contributing to the decreased number of units moved.
As I said on the first page:
It plays in to their current business strategy of making the most amount of money from the least amount of people.
There also seems to be an element of scrificing long-term growth for short-term gain in this to me, though I majored in history and not business!
What worries me as a player is that it is now impossible for me to even have the chance of rolling into a store (even an exceptionally well-stocked one like Mikhalia's) and getting all the models I might want/need to field an army. For a new player or for an established player wanting to start a new force, finding out you have to mail-order much of your new force seems like it would be a major deterrent to starting in the first place!
advertising. That is what is going to kill gw: very few people have even heard of them. The lord of the rings is one of the most popular things in the world and yet is their least popular game. Because people dont play games that they dont know exist. Direct only is simply because in this world of discounts its the only way to get people to buy their product from them instead of somewhere like gifts for geeks.
advertising. That is what is going to kill gw: very few people have even heard of them. The lord of the rings is one of the most popular things in the world and yet is their least popular game. Because people dont play games that they dont know exist. Direct only is simply because in this world of discounts its the only way to get people to buy their product from them instead of somewhere like gifts for geeks.
People are not playing LotR or The Hobbit is because it's too expensive. Increasing the prices, and halving the product also doesn't keep the current people who were playing still keep playing. LotR/The Hobbit is just like 40K and Fantasy, GW advertising is word of mouth. Since hardly anyone is playing LotR/The Hobbit anymore there is no word of mouth going around because of what GW has done.
A lot more is effecting GW than advertising. They lasted what 30 years without hardly any advertising but going by word of mouth. Sadly word of mouth is not enough now because GW seems to be driving people away instead of brining them in.
People are not playing LotR or The Hobbit is because it's too expensive. Increasing the prices, and halving the product also doesn't keep the current people who were playing still keep playing. LotR/The Hobbit is just like 40K and Fantasy, GW advertising is word of mouth. Since hardly anyone is playing LotR/The Hobbit anymore there is no word of mouth going around because of what GW has done.
A lot more is effecting GW than advertising. They lasted what 30 years without hardly any advertising but going by word of mouth. Sadly word of mouth is not enough now because GW seems to be driving people away instead of brining them in.
I am not so sure that GW advertising is only word of mouth. They want to believe that but with the first LOTR movie and game other companies did some advertising and GW had great LOTR sales (40k and fantasy players were a bit concerned with the new game that is taking GW design studio attention from their favourite game). It was even made into the third main GW game because it was so successful. I don't think that this many people would have bought LOTR stuff if they didn't know about it. That brought GW a lot of new players, some of them even switched to 40k or fantasy. There was even the LOTR bubble because they suddenly sold so much stuff and didn't know how to handle it (except using it as an excuse for bad financial performances after the movie hype died down).
While I would agree that the Hobbit minis are not selling because of their optimistic pricing the LOTR minis sold because of the advertising. Although it probably doesn't help the Hobbit minis that nobody (besides us) knows that they even exist.
Davor wrote: People are not playing LotR or The Hobbit is because it's too expensive. Increasing the prices, and halving the product also doesn't keep the current people who were playing still keep playing.
The prices aren't that bad actually. They're as expensive per-model as GW's stuff in general, but you don't need anywhere near as many models as WHFB/40k. And, unlike WHFB/40k, there's a fully-developed skirmish game to start with that you can scale up to the army-level rules with all of your existing models, so even if your eventual goal is a large army you can start playing right away with that initial $50-100 investment.
The real problem with the LotR stuff is the nonexistent marketing. Most LotR fans probably aren't even aware that the game exists, and never will be unless they happen to start playing some other miniatures game first. And that's a shameful missed opportunity for GW. They should have had LotR starter boxes in mainstream retail stores to reach as broad an audience as possible and exploit the valuable IP instead of just treating it like another WHFB product. But I guess GW is so terrified of repeating the previous LotR bubble that they'd rather make no profit at all than make a lot of money for a short time and then have to explain to the shareholders why it didn't last forever.
I got into the hobby with the LotR stuff back when GW had the other company putting out a magazine specifically for it.
That company ran a few ads on TV and I believe that was a big factor in the success of the lord of the rings line.
Davor wrote: People are not playing LotR or The Hobbit is because it's too expensive. Increasing the prices, and halving the product also doesn't keep the current people who were playing still keep playing.
The prices aren't that bad actually. They're as expensive per-model as GW's stuff in general, but you don't need anywhere near as many models as WHFB/40k.
They're as expensive as the more expensive WHFB/40k models which is why people complain. Mirkwood Elves and Palace Guard are $4 a model, Warriors of Dale and the Dwarf models are $3.50 per model, Knights of Rivendell $10 per model. Glade Guard and Dwarf Warriors for WHFB are $2.20 per model, even Chaos Knights are only $6.60. Those are the cheapest things in The Hobbit "good" side, a lot of the resin stuff is a lot more like the Lake-town warriors are $8.30 per model.
And those are US prices, some of the regional pricing is even more out of whack. Mirkwood Elves in Australia are $7 a pop and Legolas/Tauriel are $40 each for a single sprue clamshell plastic blister... seriously feth that.
You can find WHFB/40k models that are even more expensive, but I think many people just look at the price per model of everything that has come out for the Hobbit and go no further. Especially when you have the insane prices of the characters.
Especially when part of the appeal of the original LOTR game was the value. A lot of those models are only $2 per model for plastic infantry and $5 for plastic cavalry.
I don't know the US prices, but the Mines of Moria set for LOTR was cheap enough for me to impulse buy, I think maybe $85AUD, escape from Goblin Town is $205AUD... feth that. I actually want escape from Goblin Town, but not at that price.
Then add to that the fact the range is very slim. GW have only been adding the absolute minimum of new products and haven't attempted to grow the game at all.
Advertising is only part of the problem. Even established LOTR gamers (there's still some around my area) who know about the new releases have totally skipped The Hobbit because of the excessive pricing.
Googling around, the Mines of Moria set was $45US... Goblin Town is $125US. People are just far less likely to want to impulse buy a boxed set which is that expensive.
The Hobbit stuff is a smaller scale too (not by much, but by enough), so the assumption is that it should be at least proportionally cheaper.
Agreed on the impulse thing - many times I've been tempted to buy Goblin Town just for the Dwarves to paint, but I just can't bring myself to pay £75. The Goblin Town scenery itself would be great for Malifaux, but at least 100% too expensive.
TheKbob wrote: LOTR seems like it'd be awesome to play, but that model cost has scared almost everyone I know away.
Well with the direct only/finecast lord of the rings stuff it does deter people from the game. You can certainly buy most of the main troop forces not direct only.
I have a big box of lord of the rings stuff and haven't even played it. I have the old One Rulebook To Rule Them All and not the new one. Would just need the source books.
Trying to keep this on topic a bit though is that I rarely ever see any lord of the rings stuff in my FLGS. The owner has a huge Easterling force and played the War of the Ring with a bunch of people and used to stock it then. Now whenever I go in there he has the same 3 or 4 boxes of stuff that have been there forever and he can't sell it. I believe that direct only for Lord of the Rings is fine because nobody really wants to buy it....which is a shame but just the hard truth.
chiefbigredman wrote: Trying to keep this on topic a bit though is that I rarely ever see any lord of the rings stuff in my FLGS. The owner has a huge Easterling force and played the War of the Ring with a bunch of people and used to stock it then. Now whenever I go in there he has the same 3 or 4 boxes of stuff that have been there forever and he can't sell it. I believe that direct only for Lord of the Rings is fine because nobody really wants to buy it....which is a shame but just the hard truth.
I think the main problem is GW have just let LOTR stagnate and so no one wants to buy it, rather than the other way around. When games stop getting updates they do tend to die out, carried on only by the hardcore enthusiasts who will continue to play it even if new players can't find the models and rules to start an army of their own.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I think the main problem is GW have just let LOTR stagnate and so no one wants to buy it, rather than the other way around. When games stop getting updates they do tend to die out, carried on only by the hardcore enthusiasts who will continue to play it even if new players can't find the models and rules to start an army of their own.
If they added more miniatures and improved the rules situationit would have stagnated slowly because they also sold to people who had no idea what wargaming is and who were not that invested in the game.
After the movies were done and nobody advertised the games anymore their sales slowed down. For GW it was the LOTR bubble because of that but in the end it probably also showed that wargames can be advertised to increase sales. How else to explain the people who have no idea what wargaming is but started buying from the LOTR line, or the LOTR bubble itself. It's not like money just appeared in GW's bank accounts out of thin air. Stuff happened that made people buy this new line of miniatures without siphoning off money out of the 40k and fantasy budgets. It's not even about some sort of deceptive advertising to lure people into a game they otherwise wouldn't like but just basic "Hey people around the world, stuff like this exists and you might like it" type of informing people about all this. The industry would probably never become as big as video games but even as a niche hobby it could grow a bit more besides what GW expects.
I'm not sure what they were trying to do with the Hobbit. It clearly wasn't going to be as big as LotR and they'd already been letting the game go to pasture. The Hobbit range has been rather poorly handled, the films lack of impact is one problem but the GW stuff is just so expensive. It's s far cry from the release of Fellowship when they were flying off the shelves even before DeAgostini got involved.
I do suspect a bit of it was to go with keeping the licence for themselves and keeping other companies away, but the license was probably pretty expensive and I'm going to guess its a money pit they will be glad to get rid of.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I think the main problem is GW have just let LOTR stagnate and so no one wants to buy it, rather than the other way around. When games stop getting updates they do tend to die out, carried on only by the hardcore enthusiasts who will continue to play it even if new players can't find the models and rules to start an army of their own.
If they added more miniatures and improved the rules situationit would have stagnated slowly because they also sold to people who had no idea what wargaming is and who were not that invested in the game.
I know what you mean and I agree there was a bubble of people who were only in to LOTR for the hype the movies created... but I think there was also a large swathe of wargamers who were genuinely as interested (if not more) in LOTR as people are interested in 40k and WHFB.
The reason 40k and WHFB have remained for 25+ years is entirely down to the fact GW keep updating it (I won't say "improving" ), if GW just picked an edition and said "yep, this will do" and stopped updating it and then started removing models as they stopped selling, I'm pretty sure it'd be dead in a few years as well.
I think the same is true of LOTR, if they'd kept updating it and releasing things as they could, the game could have lasted for ages. There's a lot of nerds out there who love the Tolkien universe over other fantasy settings like WHFB.
Maybe it's just because LOTR was so very popular in my area even among regular wargamers long after the movies that I feel this way. 40k and WHFB both declined in the years LOTR grew, when LOTR started to stagnate, people didn't go back to WHFB and 40k, they just went on to entirely different games. Even now I find the LOTR universe GW created much more appealing than the cartoonish WHFB universe they created.
AllSeeingSkink yup, continuous development is probably a defining element of a long living game (a bit like Star Craft/WOW/TF2) so I completely agree with you on that point but it just seems to me that the LOTR bubble showed that there was much more money coming in than they expected. I just somehow can't picture all these people seeing the movie and then going home to guess keywords that would result in google showing them link for the LORT wargames (that they didn't know of before).
GW got help from outside and couldn't do anything to stop these marketing efforts from happening and it showed in their financial performance for these few years. The bubble years were probably the best evidence for GW that advertisement actually works (despite their claims).
advertisement does work, there is no real refuting that otherwise no one would.
The problem is the cost involved in it. for GW they are limited in the media they can advertise.
Do they do Magazine inserts - in which case it will only go to war gamers who most likely already know about GW they cannot do DM as its the wrong media.
which leaves them with DRTV and similar Media which is extremely expensive and you would have to be run multiple times to get enough level of saturation. The cost is to exorbitant for GW. Also they would have to spend millions to even 'create' a known brand (and to create the 'Halo' effect). Money that just simple isn't in the company. I don't think people realise how expensive it is. I work in the production area of marketing collateral for a large UK insurance business - so have some level of experience of this and the costs involved.
I think what LOTR showed is that creating partnerships can allow for short term spikes in growth and if used correctly can then become a gateway into 40k and/or fantasy. I think GW is missing the trick with this one. Yes it means doing thing outside of the usual for them, and means they would need to be clinical in rinsing the initial sales and then either dump it or put it out to pasture to eventually die off. However if you get it wrong and marry up to the wrong thing it can be seriously damaging so it is a risky area.
Other companies send people to events like Salute and Gencon. They take their latest releases and demo upcoming things.
This generates hype, which generates sales.
GW pay out millions of dollars to their shareholders each year because they can't see a use for investing it back into the company. I doubt real advertisement costs more than what they pay out.
GW wants and NEEDS to become smaller and more flexible to be able to react to the changing world (of wargaming).
They started small and flexible a long time ago and back then webstore did not exist, that where the independent stores and, later, GW stores came for.
Now all competitors are smaller, more flexible and GW has to be too and a strong and good webstore is a part of that.
GW's strong points are miniatures, i actually do agree with them on that.
And they don't have any competition in regard to background, not even close.
They don't have the best (balanced) system, they don't even want to have, they want to sell miniatures.
ORicK wrote: GW wants and NEEDS to become smaller and more flexible to be able to react to the changing world (of wargaming).
They really don't. GW could continue to dominate the market if they just stopped doing stupid stuff. GW are their own worst enemy, they do more damage to their own company than all of GW's competition combined.
They don't have the best (balanced) system, they don't even want to have, they want to sell miniatures.
And this is a textbook example of GW's self-inflicted damage. GW doesn't sell miniatures, they sell games that happen to contain miniatures. Sure, a few people will buy the models just to paint them, but most of GW's customers* are people who want to play the games. And when the rules suck they lose sales to their competition. The fact that GW still doesn't understand this is almost unbelievable.
*GW will claim that most of their customers don't play the games, but that has more to do with the appalling number of people who give up and abandon the hobby before they manage to build a whole army than a lack of interest in the rules.
jonolikespie wrote: Other companies send people to events like Salute and Gencon. They take their latest releases and demo upcoming things.
This generates hype, which generates sales.
GW pay out millions of dollars to their shareholders each year because they can't see a use for investing it back into the company. I doubt real advertisement costs more than what they pay out.
You cannot just decide to opt not to pay out an annuity because you feel like doing some advertising, that's a sure ffire way for a major shareholder to call an EGM and oust the current regime. As per UK rules their are legally obligated to return a profit for their shareholders.
Advertising cost millions and to build a brand takes a a hell of a lot more. I honestly dont think GW has the revenue stream to do this. They need to make sue of 3rd party partnership to do this.
Licencing things out is a good way - ie Dawn of War, and also how Creative assembly will be doing a Total War: Warhammer. This way the partner foots the bill and you make a tidy lieceing fee for next to no work, and at the same time reap rewards of converting from game to tabletop
GW actually does NEED to become smaller, their middle-management size and overhead outside the UK had become huge and the GW-shops were just not worth it.
But i do agree that GW could dominate the market if they stop doing stupid stuff.
My favourite GW game is Epic (Armageddon) for instance and i play(ed) all Fanatic/Specialist games.
The 28mm games are, for me, the best games for creative purposes.
But if i want to play a GOOD game, it's not WH40K or WHFB.
It's Epic or Blood Bowl or Warmaster or Dystopian Wars or....
And allthough it is more or less true that many gamers are in the hobby to play (and win), there is little reason to play tabletop wargames if you don't like miniatures.
I agree that GW still doesn't seem to understand how much they hurt themselves with poor rulesets. One of my friends was working for GW in Glen Burnie back when LOTR came out and I played a demo game of LOTR with him and it was awesome. I picked up the core concepts in a few minutes and the game was fast paced and easy to understand. I also still have copies of the Necromunda rules from back when they inclueded them in WD and had free copies of them on the website. GW stopped supporting either of those games while continuing to come out with more convoluted rules for WHRB and 40K. Now those games are slow, have way too many layers of rules and are prone to rules lawyering. I just want to play a fun game with my minis I don't want to spend hours lost in the weeds arguing about messed up rules.
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